Literati Tradition: Neidan Meditation

[Doc Stier]

Neidan: The Traditional Meditative Practice

http://www.literati-tradition.com/meditative_practice.html

Doc

[NJM]

So, are you a bot?

[Doc Stier]

LOL :D Now that was really a classy reply to the thread topic...NOT! :rolleyes: How embarrassing! :o Sometimes, it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open the mouth and remove all doubt! ;)

Doc

[NJM]

Multiple topics with the same vague double link was suspicious. Maybe you should make one topic?

[Doc Stier]

Maybe I intended to keep them separate in case anyone wished to discuss them individually, hence the specific thread links for each, but thanks for the suggestion. ;)

Knowledge of and/or posting of multiple topics does not necessarily imply a 'bot'! :rolleyes:

Doc

[Daniel09]

And why thou wishest to speak in proverbs is also unbeknownst to us all.

[Doc Stier]

Too bad that you don't have anything of meaningful substance to say about the content of the linked article, but then I'm not totally surprised by that! :rolleyes:

Doc :D

[Scott R. Brown]

So, are you a bot?

A simple question that was not rudely stated and was not answered either.

LOL :D Now that was really a classy reply to the thread topic...NOT! :rolleyes: How embarrassing! :o

It is more productive to ignore what may be considered a classless post rather than to follow it with an even more classless one.

Sometimes, it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open the mouth and remove all doubt! ;)

You might want to take your own advice here!;)

Multiple topics with the same vague double link was suspicious. Maybe you should make one topic?

This is a good point! Multiple posts like those posted raise red flags to some. NJM was not rude or disrespectful in his questioning.

Maybe I intended to keep them separate in case anyone wished to discuss them individually, hence the specific thread links for each, but thanks for the suggestion. ;)

Knowledge of and/or posting of multiple topics does not necessarily imply a 'bot'! :rolleyes:

Doc

Posting them without actually providing any comment raises red flags to some as well.

And......it does imply a 'bot' which is why a question was asked. The question received a snide response which increases the likelihood of a bot.

And why thou wishest to speak in proverbs is also unbeknownst to us all.

Too bad that you don't have anything of meaningful substance to say about the content of the linked article, but then I'm not totally surprised by that! :rolleyes:

Doc :D

Your links are interesting, but so far you have provided nothing meaningful or of substance yourself. Only snide responses.

I understand you may feel offended by the questions and the comments that have been posted, but so far your responses have not demonstrated anymore substance, maturity, insight, or wisdom than what you seem to imply you are receiving from the responders!

[Doc Stier]

Scott:

Your comments are also interesting, and entertaining, but so far you have provided nothing meaningful or of substance yourself. Only more snide responses. So you are apparently just one more guy looking for an argument and offering only criticism, while the meaningful substance of the linked article that I offered remains totally unaddressed. What a hoot! :rolleyes:

If you have something intelligent to offer relative to the linked article, please post it. I'd love to see what your perspective is. If not, please ignore this thread altogether. Thanks. ;)

Doc

[Daniel09]

Ok, I read the article (mostly, not all)
It's talking about an inner alchemic meditative practice that focuses on bringing the spirit to the "timelessness"
Some of the things addressed in it are very interesting and provide a good read for people with time.

[AdrianChanWyles]

Neidan: The Traditional Meditative Practice

http://www.literati-tradition.com/meditative_practice.html

Doc

Interesting. It seems to me, that many translations from Chinese to English, either are far too vague, too complex or perpetuate a misunderstanding. Take the term 'neidan', the referenced text translates it as 'inner alchemy'.

Nei is usually translated as 'inside', 'internal' or 'inner', depending upon context. Whereas 'dan', usually translates as 'centre', and in spiritual development, is often used to translate the Sanskrit term 'chakra', both meaning 'energy centre' or perhaps 'energy wheel'.

I do not necessarily concur that 'dan' translates as 'alchemy'. Firstly, this is the history of the word;

'[Middle English alkamie, from Old French alquemie, from Medieval Latin alchymia, from Arabic al-kīmiyā’ : al-, the + kīmiyā’, chemistry (from Late Greek khēmeia, khumeia, perhaps from Greek Khēmia, Egypt).].*

And is generally defined as;

'A medieval chemical philosophy having as its asserted aims the transmutation of base metals into gold, the discovery of the panacea, and the preparation of the elixir of longevity.'*

It is the association with 'longevity', that the term 'alchemy' is often used to describe Chinese Daoist texts, in English. However, the two traditions are quite separate from a historical perspective. The latter probably started in ancient Egypt, and may well predate Chinese Daoist practices.

The Chinese term 'neidan' then, simply translates as 'internal centre'. This maybe further clarified as to 'cultivate the centre'. However, as there are more than one of these centres in the body, according to Chinese medical thinking - the description is unclear in its title. There are at least three 'Dantien' or 'Heavenly Centres' - one between the eyes (the third-eye of Indian yoga), one below the sternum, and the other two inches below the naval. Of course, the term 'Heavenly' is contensious, as the ideogramme used to write it, refers only to that 'which is above', and in everyday Chinese, is used to refer to the 'sky'! The implication is clear however, to cultivat these centres, literally lifts one 'up' to a higher level. In neidan philosophy, these centres are cultivated from the 'inside' out. The intention of the student, is the work from the 'inside' of the centres, to create a change.

Waidan however, literally translates as 'outside' the centre. The cultivation of Qi can be either 'within' the centre of the body, or outside the centre of the body. In martial terms, inner (or 'nei') development occurs within the bones, as well as the energy centres, whilst outer Qi ( that is 'wai' or external force) is cultivated outside the bone, and outside the centres. This model corelates to an inner circulation of Qi, moving around the inside of the body, and an outer circulation of Qi, moving around the outside. Both are inherently linked however, and it would be incorrect from a developmental view, to see each as separate and 'apart'.

The statement regarding Ch'an Buddhism is mistaken. The realisation of the Mnd Ground, is to see clearly the empty nature that underlies all phenomena. The Ch'an school then has the teaching of manifesting this understanding 'in' the world. That is, manifesting the insight of 'emptiness' through everyday actions, so one is inaccordance wih the Dao. The Ch'an Buddhism penetrates the surface of phenomena with the concentrated effort of meditation. There are very similar, Daoist meditative exercises. Once penetrated, insight is immediately acquired into the experencial nature of the phenomena. Phenomena does not cease to function.

'Taoist inner alchemists make it very clear that their ideas are different from the notions of Chan/Zen Buddhists. According to Taoist inner alchemists, Chan/Zen Buddhists only dwell on xing 性, or the original nature in its pristine purity, which they wish to attain in an intuitive and immediate vision. They neglect ming 命, or fate, life, which represent the resistance of corporality and gravity within human beings.'

This is incorrect, because the 'Original Nature' as defined within the quote, is not the Mind Ground of Ch'an Buddhism, but would roughly corelate to another layer of illusion that one has to transcend, to move on. The Mind Ground lays beyond the 'pristine' state, quoted above.

Ch'an Buddhism, is really Indian Buddhism, heavily influenced by Daoism. Other than that, I found the article very interesting.

Thank you

[sanjuro_ronin]

Neidan: The Traditional Meditative Practice

http://www.literati-tradition.com/meditative_practice.html

Doc


Very interesting Doc, inner alchemy is something I have started to take note of more and more, things like tantric martial arts and such.

Thanks for the article.
I shall study it more.

[Doc Stier]

Any attempt at semantic interpretation of Taoist Neidan philosophy and methodology from the uniquely different spiritual points of view and different accompanying world views inherent to other Religious and Spiritual Traditions is doomed to misunderstanding and failure from the outset. It must be viewed in its own Light in order to fully and accurately understand its spiritual philosophy, the agenda priorities of its methodology, and its foundational 'intention' or 'yi'. To approach it in any other way, from any other point of view, is merely a misdirected attempt to fit a square peg into a round hole. :o :rolleyes:

Whereas Western or European Alchemy strove to transmute base metals into gold for material wealth gain, Taoist Alchemy strives to transmute Essential Physical Vitality (Jing) into Intrinsic Energy (Qi) as a means of Physical Self-Cultivation for health and indefinite longevity, and to subsequently transmute Intrinsic Energy (Qi) into Pure Spirit Consciousness (Shen) as a means of Spiritual Self-Realization. Correctly perceived, this is clearly an Inner Transformation of Body, Mind, and Spirit which emanates from the very core or 'Center' of one's Being at every level, hence the use of the identifying term 'Neidan' or 'Inner Center'. The 'Center' so referenced certainly includes, but is not limited to any 'chakras' or 'energy centers' with specific anatomical locations, nor any specific states of consciousness, however these may be envisioned or defined. Thus, the culmination of the Neidan practices is indeed unlimited, unrestricted, and 'Timeless' in nature, and devoid of any dependency on intellectual or philosophical constructs found in other Traditions. ;)

Doc

[sanjuro_ronin]

And the martial application of such?
A long the lines of the Iron vest, iron wire and so forth?

[Doc Stier]

Without question, the transformative physical and energetic aspects of Traditional Taoist Neidan practice can and have been applied to internal gung-fu training in general, including practices intended to develop the 'Iron Shirt Kung-Fu', the 'Golden Bell Cover Kung-Fu', or other related skills, but such agenda priorities were never the original goals of Neidan training and meditation, which has always focused primarily on spiritual attainment instead. The physical health and longevity benefits, and the energetic benefits of Traditional Neidan training have generally been viewed as totally awesome 'perks' or auxilliary benefits experienced as a part of the overall process of inner transformation leading to the experience of its intended spiritual goals. :cool:

Doc

[sanjuro_ronin]

Without question, the transformative physical and energetic aspects of Traditional Taoist Neidan practice can and have been applied to internal gung-fu training in general, including practices intended to develop the 'Iron Shirt Kung-Fu', the 'Golden Bell Cover Kung-Fu', or other related skills, but such agenda priorities were never the original goals of Neidan training and meditation, which has always focused primarily on spiritual attainment instead. The physical health and longevity benefits, and the energetic benefits of Traditional Neidan training have generally been viewed as totally awesome 'perks' or auxilliary benefits experienced as a part of the overall process of inner transformation leading to the experience of its intended spiritual goals. :cool:

Doc

Understood.

[Scott R. Brown]

Scott:

Your comments are also interesting, and entertaining, but so far you have provided nothing meaningful or of substance yourself. Only more snide responses. So you are apparently just one more guy looking for an argument and offering only criticism, while the meaningful substance of the linked article that I offered remains totally unaddressed. What a hoot! :rolleyes:

If you have something intelligent to offer relative to the linked article, please post it. I'd love to see what your perspective is. If not, please ignore this thread altogether. Thanks. ;)

Doc

Hi Doc,

I am afraid you have misunderstood my comments. There was no snideness in them. There was an honest explanation of why Daniel and NJM made the comments they did. It is your own comments that are argumentative, not mine, Daniel's or NJM's.

I also pointed out that you responded in a manner that demonstrated yourself to be behaving in the exact manner you were criticizing. Except that neither Daniel nor NJM were behaving with the snideness you have. Your comments say more about your poor attitude they do about Daniel's, NJM's and now my own comments. You are free with the criticism of others yet are unwilling to take any in return. It is this hypocritical behavior I was addressing.

You suggested that others not open their mouth to remove all doubt as to their foolishness. I recommended you do the same. You have not followed your own advice by continuing your rude behavior. This is also hypocritical behavior. If you wish a certain decorum in your threads then set the example yourself by behaving with decorum to begin with.

It is your attitude that needs some adjustment not mine, Daniel's or NJM's.

You posted no comments of your own, you posted links, that is all. This caused the responses you first received and your rude attitude is what motivated the following posts.

If you choose to engage in civil discussions then I suggest you behave civilly yourself. If you do not like the responses you get then don't reply to them or reply to them with the decorum you expect to receive.

Try following some of the spiritual modes of conduct discussed in the links you have posted. This is what creates respect and civil discussion not your continued rude behavior.

I will be happy to comment if and when I have the time and if and when I am so inclined. Just as I am inclined to comment now.

[Scott R. Brown]

The Taoist alchemical methodologies tend towards the mind washing methodology of the Northern Ch’an sect of Shen-hsiu although the Alchemical methodologies are more intricate and complicated. Many of the practices are over complicated and unnecessary to accomplish the stated goal. That is, the same goal may be achieved with much less effort and a lot less adherence to unhealthy and unnatural methods.

It was Shen-hsiu’s Northern Ch’an and later Ch’an schools that recommend meditative practices. Hui-Neng clearly stated meditation is unnecessary and creates an hindrance to realization. He criticized the mind washing methodology as clinging to the concept of purity. This clinging creates a barrier to complete realization. One focuses so much on purity that the “idea” of purity becomes a barrier to realization.

The same result occurs with Alchemical practices. The individual becomes bound by a clinging to an unnecessary methodology rather than transcending all methodologies. If one is clear that the method they follow is merely a tool to be discarded eventually, and the method fits their temperament, benefits may be gained, however why would one want to learn to swim with an anchor around their waist when they could learn to swim more easily and effectively without it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That is, the same goal may be achieved with much less effort and a lot less adherence to unhealthy and unnatural methods.


Are you refering to "jing/semen retention" for example ?
I have heard concerns voiced by urologists and such in regards to this practice.

[Doc Stier]

It is your own comments that are argumentative, not mine, Daniel's or NJM's. I also pointed out that you responded in a manner that demonstrated yourself to be behaving in the 'exact' manner you were criticizing. Your comments say more about your poor attitude they do about Daniel's, NJM's and now my own comments. You are free with the criticism of others yet are unwilling to take any in return. It is this hypocritical behavior I was addressing.



Scott:

Thanks, Dad! :p But contrary to your esteemed evaluation of the situation, I responded in kind to the attitude I received for merely posting some great links to interesting articles, without commenting on the articles before anyone had a chance to review them. Thus, my initial comments to you, Daniel, and NJM were essentially a 'mirror' which simply reflected the quality of energy that was directed towards me back to its original source. :eek: I neither want or need such energy in a leisure time activity such as posting on this or any other forum. Hence, the "poor attitude" rests squarely with those who put such energy in motion to begin with. As such, there really is no hypocritical behavior originating from me. :rolleyes:

You may have noticed that I also responded to others on this thread in a manner akin to their own non-adversarial attitudes and productive comments of positive contribution to the thread topic! ;) You have yet to post anything in a similar manner, so I can only surmise that continuation of an adversarial debate is more important to your ego needs than a positive and productive discussion of the article is. :o Take a long look at your own agenda priorities to find a comfortable resolution to your misdirected energy. My comments and replies to individuals other than yourself are not your business, and never will be. So unless you wish to contribute to a meaningful discussion of the thread topic, I would kindly request once again that you simply refrain from posting anything else, as it serves only to sidetrack the discussion for those who actually have an interest in the subject matter of the article. :)

Doc

[cjurakpt]

bored with EF? striking out for new territory? well, welcome and enjoy - the "flavor" over here is a bit different, but the discussions are lively, a you no doubt already have experienced...

all very interesting, some nice material; but as I have always maintained, any "esoteric" practice, if it indeed does have an effect on the totality that is the organism, can and necessarilly must be describeable from the perspective of so-called "western" anatomical/physiological processes - it may lack the integrated and cultural flavor, but it can be done; from my own personal experience engaging in these practices, I am comfortable using both paradigms, taoist and skepticist - they are neither mutually exclusive rather, they run in parallel - the mistake is to bounce from one to the other when lacks facility with either; in my personal experience, the profoundness of internal practice is not in anyway diminsihed by utilizing a "western" approach - in a way, describing it in terms more common to this culture enhances the "profound ordinaryness" of what is occuring - it actually takes out the "distraction" that can be the esoteric aspect, which is what many are drawn to rather than the simplicity that is suchness - but, as the saying goes, "the foreign ginger tastes more interesting"...

[cjurakpt]

The same result occurs with Alchemical practices. The individual becomes bound by a clinging to an unnecessary methodology rather than transcending all methodologies. If one is clear that the method they follow is merely a tool to be discarded eventually, and the method fits their temperament, benefits may be gained, however why would one want to learn to swim with an anchor around their waist when they could learn to swim more easily and effectively without it.

that's another way of putting it

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

First, i would be pleased if someone, anyone, would actually differentiate between philosophical Taoist practices and the aberration thereof, referred to, generally, as Religious Taoism..

Second, it has come to pass, after more than 5 years on this forum it is nearing the point of diminishing returns.. psuedo-intellectual nit-picking over minutia.. "where have all the flowers gone"..

So, if you're spending so much time talkin' it, you ain't spendin' enough time doin' it..

I think i'll take a sabatical, actually "living it" sounds pretty good right now..

Be well, ALL...

[Daniel09]

Not to be a bother, and I apologize for extending the off topic conversation, but honestly. You read them in the tone you think we are typing in. Thus, you cannot be the judge of how we actually meant to reply, and were quite rude in your responsive comments.

In truth, I feel you are still being quite rude, acting as though everything you say is instantly correct and moral. So I end this post with a quote that I like myself, "He who believes he knows everything knows nothing."

P.S. In case you read this in the wrong tone, I was responding in a calm, 'hope you understand what I'm saying' manner. I was in no way intending to sound snide, angry, annoyed, or otherwise off tone. Thank you for taking the time to read this. I look forward to conversing with you further.

[Doc Stier]

OK, Daniel, whatever! :p I'm rude...you and Scott are the very embodiment of respect and courtesy. :rolleyes: So can we just move forward with the discussion now? :confused:

Doc :D

[mantis108]

Well, I think the article is certainly interesting. It is quite well written. Althought I can't say I agreed with it altogether, I think it has given a good idea of what is involved in what it posited to be Neidan Meditation.

I believe enlightenment comes in many forms and there are more ways then one way to experience it. Whether it is rational or mystic tradition, the disciplines are equally vigourous and the goal is to transcend that which is relative existence and not not experience the absolute, that which is beyond existence, would be. I think that's important footing in this particular discussion.

Mantis108

[tai chi hermit]

my opinion is... (JUST MY OPINION!)... no one can reach 'enlightenment' or 'immortality' while carrying out a normal life in this society. maybe if you had the simple life of a simple farmer, but im not sure if being a farmer is even not enough to reach these goals. as for internal alchemy..... i have researched a lot about it, yet i realize that not only would that take a hell of a lot of time and practice but also a lot of time understanding every little aspect about it.

by the way, how would one seperate from society.... what would you eat? how would you get food + water to you? where would you resort to?........ really, i want these questions answered because i want to do it someday for maybe 2 - 3 yrs.

thanks

[cjurakpt]

my opinion is... (JUST MY OPINION!)... no one can reach 'enlightenment' or 'immortality' while carrying out a normal life in this society. maybe if you had the simple life of a simple farmer, but im not sure if being a farmer is even not enough to reach these goals. as for internal alchemy..... i have researched a lot about it, yet i realize that not only would that take a hell of a lot of time and practice but also a lot of time understanding every little aspect about it.
thanks

one of the more famous Ch'an personalities was a guy by the name of Layman Pang - he used to torture the local monks who were all sent to him by their teachers to learn from him because Pang was fully awakened and realized; he was ahouseholder, an "ordinary" guy, and that was no obstacle for him - in fact it was the method he used, his own daily life;

see, the problem is that if you presupose what enlightenement is "supposed" to be like, then you are already off - likewise, thinking that one can or can't become enlightened in everyday life means you have already set yourself a precondition for it; on the contrary, it is certainly possible - enlightenment - being awake - is essentially seeing things such as they are, and responding based on awareness in stead of recting bsed on habit; it's not to say that time alone on reatreat isn't beneficial to this, but it is not a pre-requisite;


by the way, how would one seperate from society.... what would you eat? how would you get food + water to you? where would you resort to?........ really, i want these questions answered because i want to do it someday for maybe 2 - 3 yrs.

now, immortality is another story - first off, be aware that this is more of Daoist concept than Buddhist - in Ch'an, there is no attempt to become immortal or even prolong life - to the Ch'an practitioner, the Daoists are just a bunch of walking corpses whose attachment to their bodies is a hindrance to achieving full awakening; anyway, to do immortal (or, more realistically, longevity) practice, there are certain things, as I have been told, that occur; one, people do typically isolate themselves - this makes sense, as it decreases stimulation in general, and also cuts down significantly on exposure to things like germs, pollution, etc.; then you find the right spot with an active water source (I mean, you wouldn't go out to the desert, would you?); as for food, there is a practice known as bai gu - which is a qigong practice by which one spontaneously radically decreases or stops intaking food completely - my teacher, when doing it, survived very well on a spoonful of rice a day (and he did this living in NYC, BTW!) - the reason he went back to regular eating, was that he no longer had the need to participate in meals with his family, and he didn't want not to do that; anyway, what I have also been told is that when one fully comitts to this process, one's basic physiology changes in several ways - anatomically, the disgestive system becomes a closed system - the lower digestive tract seals itself off; second, the physiology changes such that your body starts to do its own form of photosynthesis - it gets it's energy rom the sun like a plnant - now, don't get me wrong - this is what I have been told, I've never seen it, and certainly there are some issues of credulity to be considered - but the possibillity is intriguing...
on the other hand, more pragmatically, if you want to do a solitary retreat for a period of time, the traditional "proptocol", as far as the Ch'an monks I have known personally who did this, you spend your days in seclusion, except for one meal a day brought to you by someone who is technically your monitor, your "link" so to speak, whose job is to make sure you are ok, etc; depending on your level, again food is a variable - some monks were known for eating a minimal amount of rice flour, which they would eat by dipping their hand into a bowl of water then into the rice flour and make a small ball of dough which they'd pop into their mouths from time to time

in general, though, I'd suggest trying a 7 day retreat at a local center before monking-out for years on end - it sound very romantic, but by the third day you might be ready to loose it, so make sure you know what you are in for - living with yourself with only the "noise" in your mind can be maddening until it settles down (usually by the 4th day...)

good luck

[Doc Stier]

my opinion is...no one can reach 'enlightenment' or 'immortality' while carrying out a normal life in this society. how would one seperate from society.... what would you eat? how would you get food + water to you? where would you resort to?



Good points, and practical questions. :) This is exactly why most spiritual adepts in virtually every religious spiritual tradition since ancient times have withdrawn from life within the population at large to devote themselves to their spiritual practices and pursuits in seclusion, especially amidst Nature. This is not to say that it is impossible to pursue profound spiritual self-realization while married or otherwise living amongst normal society, but only that the challenges are more simple and the distractions are fewer when living in seclusion. ;)

The Buddhist, Hindu, Christian, Islamic Sufi, and Taoist Traditions have all traditionally favored a cenobitic lifestyle of the religious community living in a monastic setting adjacent to a church, temple, or mosque. Such communities usually depend on self-supporting communal industry or work, oftentimes also coupled with dependence on alms or charitable donations to the community.

Each of these Traditions, however, also has a rich history of at a small percentage of its members retiring further into seclusion to pursue their spiritual self-realization in a eremetical lifestyle model, that of a hermit monk living apart from the main monastery in caves, huts, cabins, and so forth, but still connected to the religious foundation that they are originally associated with. And in some Traditions, such individuals may become mendicant monks or friars like St. Francis of Assisi or many Buddhist monks, who constantly travel from place to place on pilgrimage to Holy Sites, depending on alms begging along the way to provide their food, lodging, clothing, and so forth.

The Taoist Tradition has typically favored the eremetical or hermit life in remote mountain areas or in secluded forest and jungle environments where few, if any, other people reside in order to guarantee minimal distractions or responsibilities and obligations to other people. Like hermit monks in other Traditions, this leaves them free to engage in a more serious, long-term practice without any external inpediments to potential progress and ultimate achievement. :cool:

Doc

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi sanjro_ronin,

Are you refering to "jing/semen retention" for example ?
I have heard concerns voiced by urologists and such in regards to this practice.

Well that is one example. There are actually many examples that could be cited. I am not saying Alchemical Practices have no value, but neither are they the be all and end all. Many of the practices are contrary to the natural processes of Tao. It is a natural process to expel semen. This indicates it is safe and has no inherent detrimental effect on the person, assuming there is no “long term” excessive expulsion. Contrast this with hemorrhaging. Hemorrhaging is useful at times, but the body has a built in mechanism to stop the excess. This is because it is detrimental to the bodily system to bleed to death. There is a balance to Tao and a balance to the bodily systems. If one is in tune with their body then they will be able to apply the principles of Tao according to the signals their body provides. As it is said in Ch’an, when hungry I eat, when tired I sleep, well one could add to that, when experiencing sexual desire, I have sex. Sex is a natural process. When we deny/ignore the natural processes of our body it is unhealthy and contrary to Tao.

Alchemical methods tend to focus on the leaves of the tree in an attempt to get to the root. There is nothing inherently wrong with this from a certain perspective and it is the perspective that one brings to the activity that is important. In the end, Alchemical processes are skills of the mind designed to alter the mind’s manner of perceiving reality. It starts with the body and moves to the mind so to speak. The thing is, the manner in which it addresses the body is through the mind, so why not just start with the mind since this is the goal and inherently where all the action takes place to begin with.

Consider a person’s goal to travel to a certain destination. Most often the desire is to get there in the quickest manner possible. This means that the direct route is the quickest and the most efficient path to take. However, there are those who choose to take the scenic route. For whatever their reasons they are not concerned with an efficient means of arriving at their destination. There is nothing inherently wrong with this method as long as they are aware they are taking the long way around. Some people enjoy meandering and there is nothing inherently wrong with this. However, if you think you are taking the short path when in fact you are taking the long path, it seems important to have that fact revealed so that you can make a more informed decision about the path you are choosing. Alchemical practices are a long path that takes a lot of self-discipline. One must sacrifice many natural human experiences and ignore, they would say transcend, natural bodily needs. This is not in accord with Tao which seeks balance in all things.

Alchemical practices develop certain skills that do not necessarily provide one with the result they are hoping for. Skills do not in and of themselves lead to spiritual growth. If that were so then experts in any field of endeavor would acquire spiritual maturity along with their skills. Michael Jordan is a master of Basketball, but that does not automatically make him a master of life or spiritual matters.

On the other hand there is a long tradition in Japan and China of using skills as an aid in developing spiritual insight. One must understand that the method is a tool we use to achieve the goal; it is not the goal in and of itself. The tool may just as easily become a hindrance if it contains superfluous exercises or if we cling to it unecessarily.

[Scott R. Brown]

Scott:

Thanks, Dad! :p But contrary to your esteemed evaluation of the situation, I responded in kind to the attitude I received for merely posting some great links to interesting articles, without commenting on the articles before anyone had a chance to review them. Thus, my initial comments to you, Daniel, and NJM were essentially a 'mirror' which simply reflected the quality of energy that was directed towards me back to its original source. :eek: I neither want or need such energy in a leisure time activity such as posting on this or any other forum. Hence, the "poor attitude" rests squarely with those who put such energy in motion to begin with. As such, there really is no hypocritical behavior originating from me. :rolleyes:

Hi Doc,

I am always glad to help, but you are not listening. Daniel, NJM and I were not being snide. That determination is a reflection of your own mind ONTO what has been written. It is your assessment of the comments that has led you to your conclusions and your assessment is a reflection of your own attitude. I am pointing out that your poor attitude is what has caused the conflict not the comments posted and I am doing so in an appropriate manner. It is you that determined the posts of NJM and Daniel were negative without adequate evidence. I am pointing that out. It is you that basically referred to NJM as being a fool. I merely pointed out that it is your response to him that made you appear the fool yourself.

Once again, NJM asked a straight forward question. He wanted to know if you are a bot. It is you that became offended by his question. You ASSUMED he was being rude, yet there was no indication in his comment that was his intent. He included no “rolled eyes” smilies, just a simple straight forward question. The poor attitude was reflected in your response NOT his question. You included a “mocking grin”, “rolled eyes”, and the “mad” smilies. These along with your actual words leave little doubt as to your intent. Within NJM’s question there lies much room for interpretation as to his intent. You have chosen to perceive his comment in the negative, assuming that was his intent. NJM questioned your motive, this is not an inherent insult, yet you assumed this to be the case. Your assumption is a reflection of your own attitude, NOT his. You perceive the glass as half empty according to this circumstance so to speak.

Daniel’s question could be taken as an attempt at humor. That is how I took it. But you, with a chip on your shoulder to begin with, took it as a negative response as well. There was no overt insult, no “rolled eyes” smilie included, just a straight forward question, while your response once again was left little doubt as to your intent to ridicule.

It is you that assumed them to be giving you negative energy because of how YOU interpreted their comments. I, without any emotional investment in this thread, perceived their comments in a different light. How we perceive circumstances is a reflection of the attitude WE bring to the event. Your responses have reflected your inherent negative/defensive attitude. Even if the comments of NJM and Daniel were overtly snide, the manner in which one chooses to respond is a reflection of their own attitudes and maturity. Since your posts imply a spiritual interest I recommended that you apply spiritual principles to your own life. That is lead by example. If you do not want to be treated in a snide manner then do not respond in a snide manner. Return gentleness with gentleness, but also return hostility with gentleness. This is how the overall environment is elevated. To return hostility with hostility works against your stated purpose of elevating the discussion, it tends to increase the overall hostility.


You may have noticed that I also responded to others on this thread in a manner akin to their own non-adversarial attitudes and productive comments of positive contribution to the thread topic! ;) You have yet to post anything in a similar manner, so I can only surmise that continuation of an adversarial debate is more important to your ego needs than a positive and productive discussion of the article is. :o Take a long look at your own agenda priorities to find a comfortable resolution to your misdirected energy. My comments and replies to individuals other than yourself are not your business, and never will be. So unless you wish to contribute to a meaningful discussion of the thread topic, I would kindly request once again that you simply refrain from posting anything else, as it serves only to sidetrack the discussion for those who actually have an interest in the subject matter of the article. :)

What you have done is assumed an adversarial attitude of others and this has revealed your own adversarial nature. The point I have been making is for to you take your own advice; if you do not like what you perceive to be adversarial then do not behave so yourself. It is that simple!

You choose to interpret my responses as adversarial because you do not like what I am saying just as you did not like what NJM and Daniel posted. It is you that has demonstrated the adversarial attitude by choosing to interpret some of the comments in the manner of your choosing and responding in kind according to your assumptions. This is a reflection of your own attitude, NOT mine NJM or Daniel’s.

You continue your adversarial attitude by ridiculing my “on topic” post while others have respond to my “on topic” post implying it had some value. Once again I encourage you to take your own advice and "Take a long look at your own agenda priorities to find a comfortable resolution to your [OWN] misdirected energy.

If you wish to move on then move on and cease replying to my comments on this topic.

[Scott R. Brown]

my opinion is... (JUST MY OPINION!)... no one can reach 'enlightenment' or 'immortality' while carrying out a normal life in this society. maybe if you had the simple life of a simple farmer, but im not sure if being a farmer is even not enough to reach these goals. as for internal alchemy..... i have researched a lot about it, yet i realize that not only would that take a hell of a lot of time and practice but also a lot of time understanding every little aspect about it.

by the way, how would one seperate from society.... what would you eat? how would you get food + water to you? where would you resort to?........ really, i want these questions answered because i want to do it someday for maybe 2 - 3 yrs.

thanks

Hi tai chi hermit,

Chris and Doc have posted some good information, to add a few things:

Hindus use the metaphor of the lotus flower that rises above the sewage it grows in. Life is to be lived, but it can be lived to the fullest when we rise above the superficial behaviors and attitudes that preoccupy the lives of most individuals. To live in the world but not be of the world is the key.

Society may bring with it obstacles, but those obstacles are the measure of development. Obstacles are meant to be overcome. It is easy for a sailor to navigate a calm sea, but a master sailor can also navigate the storms. An enlightened person is unaffected by the world system and rises above it just as the lotus rises about the muck. But remember the muck is the source of the lotus’s roots. Muck is only muck because we call it muck. Inherently there is no muck at all and this is why it is possible to gain realization no matter where we are. As Chris said, it is what you bring to you circumstances that determine your experience. It is your own perception/perspective, that determines whether you are living in muck or not.

Balance is important. There is a time for the world system and a time to retreat from it in order to recalibrate our purpose and restore our energies. When you feel over-stimulated by worldly endeavors that is a sign to retreat for a period of time. Learning to listen to your mind and body’s signals is important. Your mind and body send you the signals, just learn to listen to them and work on balance.

There is an ebb and flow to growth. There is a time of growth and a time of seeming stagnation or loss of gains. These times are built into the system so to speak and are part of the natural process of Tao as illustrated by Yin-Yang.

Do not be discouraged if realization is your goal. It is not a race and there is no necessarily well defined destination. It is likely that where you end up is not where you thought you were going. All this is part of the natural process of Tao. Go with the ride, but try to learn not to push the river, or redirect it to where you think it should go.

[Scott R. Brown]

Greetings..

First, i would be pleased if someone, anyone, would actually differentiate between philosophical Taoist practices and the aberration thereof, referred to, generally, as Religious Taoism..

Second, it has come to pass, after more than 5 years on this forum it is nearing the point of diminishing returns.. psuedo-intellectual nit-picking over minutia.. "where have all the flowers gone"..

So, if you're spending so much time talkin' it, you ain't spendin' enough time doin' it..

I think i'll take a sabatical, actually "living it" sounds pretty good right now..

Be well, ALL...

Hi Bob,

Try not to forget that "pseudo-intellectual nitpicking" is still "doing it" and "living it". It is ALL doing it and living it. We cannot NOT do it and live it. I know you know this so perhaps you are burning out and need a time to re-energize or re-focus yourself.

At any rate, your insights are always a benefit to any discussion and I for one will be happy to see you return when you are ready.

[AdrianChanWyles]

The Buddhist, Hindu, Christian, Islamic Sufi, and Taoist Traditions have all traditionally favored a cenobitic lifestyle of the religious community living in a monastic setting adjacent to a church, temple, or mosque. Such communities usually depend on self-supporting communal industry or work, oftentimes also coupled with dependence on alms or charitable donations to the community.

Each of these Traditions, however, also has a rich history of at a small percentage of its members retiring further into seclusion to pursue their spiritual self-realization in a eremetical lifestyle model, that of a hermit monk living apart from the main monastery in caves, huts, cabins, and so forth, but still connected to the religious foundation that they are originally associated with. And in some Traditions, such individuals may become mendicant monks or friars like St. Francis of Assisi or many Buddhist monks, who constantly travel from place to place on pilgrimage to Holy Sites, depending on alms begging along the way to provide their food, lodging, clothing, and so forth.

The Taoist Tradition has typically favored the eremetical or hermit life in remote mountain areas or in secluded forest and jungle environments where few, if any, other people reside in order to guarantee minimal distractions or responsibilities and obligations to other people.

Interesting. Of course, the Confucian model advocates that the dao is found here and now, wihtin a home, with a wife(s) and children. The daily practice involving contemplation of one's own thoughts, behaviour and rituals, carried out at the family shrine. Some of the earliest innovators or Ch'an Buddhism, lived within a family environment, applying the Confucian ethos (many were Confucian scholars).

The Daoist path, as distinct from Confucianism, did/does advocate the moving away from sensory stimulation - or, to put it another, to replace one set of sensory stimulants (wife, family, children), with another set of sensory stimulants fresh air, countryside, natural beauty), the latter being considered more favourable for contemplation and meditative attainment. The Confucians advocate family and community as the greatest aspect of existence, and bringing balance to these human collectives, as the highest, spiritual good. Daoists, at least in popular literature, left these establishments and turned their backs on society. From a Confucian perspective, 'ren', or humanity is the greatest attribute one could cultivate. To do this, one is required to be in a group. For the Daoist, walking a path that units the highest aspect of themselves, with the lowest aspect, (the yin with the yang), requires a 'dropping' away of habits of desire and association. Even though, (it could be argued), that within the character 'Dao', it is a Confucian scholar that is drawn, following the path that units heaven with earth. The usual perception is that for a Confucian to 'retire' from the world, he must 'give-up' being a Confucian - many then, became Daoists. But even Confucius himself, was of the opinion that if society beocmes degenerate, a gentleman should 'withdraw'. Perhaps there is an over-lap, with both Daoism and Confucianism representing two varying stages of the need for human spiritual development.

Whereas Confucianism strives to bring order to what already exists, by refined conduct and correct behaviour, the Daoist path seeks to become 'one' with the patterns of nature. To fully comprehend the patterns in both there yin and yang aspects. And to, in effect, become so 'aware' of these patterns, that one literally 'merges' with change. The process of becoming 'one' with the changing patterns, involves the kind of development explained in the above Neidan treatise. In this context, Tai chi Chuan is a Daoist, transformative exercise, and if practiced with the correct mind-set, can contribute to inner-development.

Ch'an Buddhism however, is not concerned with social order. It is not concerned with becoming 'one' with the patterns of nature. It teaches that through the cultivation of the Mind, a practitioner is able to 'pierce' the outer layer of apparent phenomena - that is, the world as it presents itself to our senses. The Ch'an method guides the student to turn their Minds back, so that the essence of the Mnd itself maybe perceived. Now, a good Ch'an master, either lay or monastic, will point out that no matter where yyou are, either in a family or sat on a hill, the Mind-essence will be exactly the same and that perception of that essence is not dependent upon existential circumstance. Of course, there maybe times when secluded practice is required, to become 'sure' about things, but there will always be times when interaction is required. The Ch'an master then, is of the opinion that if one realises the essence of the Mind, and behaves inaccordance with that realisation, order is brought to social affairs (Confucianism), and by doing so, one acts inaccordance with change (Daoism).

Thank you

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Adrian,

Another good post, thank you.

I would have to interject that certain Taoists, the Alchemists in particular, believed that seclusion from the world system was a benefit. There were other Taoists such as Liu I-ming that criticized this form of Taoist thought as an abberation and contrary to the principles of Tao. I agree with Liu on a larger scale, but would disagree on an individual scale.

I am of the opinion that we each interact with Tao according to our own temperaments. Therefore, some may be inclined to seclusion by their inherent nature. To coerce such a person to participate in the world system when it is contrary to their nature would cause them to be out of accord with Tao as it relates to their individual temperament.

To me, error occurs when one method is recommended as the only method for everyone rather than taking into account each individual's personal temperament. This view coincides with Hui-neng's admonition to teach each person using expedients that are in accord with that person's temperament.

[qiew]

Hi, Doc

The links are interesting and the pictures are great. I am most interested on the Nei Dan Tu (micro.jpg). Regretably, it is scanned to a small dpi of which the wordings are blur on enlargement. Can you please scan it to a bigger dpi to e-mail me.

Have you any in depth translation of those wording in simple chinese?

Many thanks.

Qiew

[cjurakpt]

Ch'an Buddhism however, is not concerned with social order. It is not concerned with becoming 'one' with the patterns of nature. It teaches that through the cultivation of the Mind, a practitioner is able to 'pierce' the outer layer of apparent phenomena - that is, the world as it presents itself to our senses. The Ch'an method guides the student to turn their Minds back, so that the essence of the Mnd itself maybe perceived. Now, a good Ch'an master, either lay or monastic, will point out that no matter where yyou are, either in a family or sat on a hill, the Mind-essence will be exactly the same and that perception of that essence is not dependent upon existential circumstance. Of course, there maybe times when secluded practice is required, to become 'sure' about things, but there will always be times when interaction is required. The Ch'an master then, is of the opinion that if one realises the essence of the Mind, and behaves inaccordance with that realisation, order is brought to social affairs (Confucianism), and by doing so, one acts inaccordance with change (Daoism).

precisely & well said; the "idea" is to work with things such as they are - any attempt to change the internal self-order (Daoist) or external world/social order (Conf.) is, at it's root, still originating with mind, and one cannot use the mind to "solve" the "problem" of the mind; for Ch'an, life and death are without intrinsic meaning, it is mind that fixates on the differentiation - sort of what Krisnamurti calls "pshychological time"; now, this is not advocating that one just walk into traffic - that would be confusing the relative with the absolute - even the Ch'an masters acknowledged that teaching involved "going into the weeds", basically working with the world as it is - being in it, not of it, in a sense

it's very interesting - in a way, it seems to me that Ch'an is addressing the basic biological urges of survival: essentially what motivates humanity / human society is the drive towards acquisition / retention of resources for survival - we need to have certain basic things to live - CH'an appears to try to address all the fear-based activites that motvate this; the question is, can the survival mechanism be "turned off", and can one exist in the world without it? maybe the trick is to become a wel-known Ch'an master and have many students who will just feed you (;))...hard to say...

[Doc Stier]

Hi, Doc

The links are interesting and the pictures are great. I am most interested on the Nei Dan Tu (micro.jpg). Regretably, it is scanned to a small dpi of which the wordings are blur on enlargement. Can you please scan it to a bigger dpi to e-mail me.

Have you any in depth translation of those wording in simple chinese?

Many thanks.

Qiew



Qiew:

Here's a larger version of the image, just click on the enlargement box which appears when you point your mouse cursor at the image. Sorry, you're on your own for a translation. :eek:

http://free.000angels.com/libran/body/ngt.gif

Doc

[Scott R. Brown]

one cannot use the mind to "solve" the "problem" of the mind.

Hi Chris,

Actually D.T. Suzuki, in his commentary on the Sutra of Hui-Neng, states that according to Hui-Neng, this is exactly what the mind does . The only thing that may be used to solve the problem of the mind is the mind itself. It is mind turning back on itself that observes itself and knows itself. We commonly call this introspection.

CH'an appears to try to address all the fear-based activites that motvate this; the question is, can the survival mechanism be "turned off", and can one exist in the world without it? maybe the trick is to become a wel-known Ch'an master and have many students who will just feed you (;))...hard to say...

When we transcend our conditioned interpretation of experiences it is easy to turn off the survival mechanism. This is because one perceives the inherent illusion of fear to begin with. In the end this is the greater or true survival mechanism. One's survival is not in question therefore there is nothing to fear. When there is nothing to fear our chances of physical survival are increased as a natural consequence.

[Doc Stier]

The Chinese Occult Universe

Between the 22nd and 12th centuries BC, Chinese thought was integrated into a robust system of cosmological and political significance. Incorporated within this were the six classes of occult arts, more specifically (1) astrology, (2) almanacs, (3) the five elements, (4) divination by stalks, (5) other methods of divination and (6) the system of forms (which includes physiognomy and fengshui or geomancy). The basic building blocks for this elaborate system were the Five Elements, which were thought to make up the universe, namely Water, Fire, Wood, Metal and Earth. Each of these five base elements was grouped with physical phenomena, which they were thought to influence, thus creating five different sets of forces or powers, termed the Five Powers.Hence the element Fire, whose basic attribute is heat, was grouped with the direction South, the daily time of high noon and the season of summer. Using the same approach, the four elements Fire & Water and Wood & Metal were grouped with similar physical phenomena and categorised into opposing sets of dynamically interactive Powers. The fifth element, Earth or soil, was incorporated within this schema, somewhat uncomfortably, to make up the Fifth of the Five Powers.

The Five Powers

http://www.imperialtours.net/images/inside_china/thought/occult_universe/occult_img_fivepower.gif

Since the Ancients assumed that nature responded to the actions of humans, the interaction of the Five Powers was explained in such a way as to relate changes in time and space to human conduct. Thus a relationship was established between the conduct of nature and that of humankind. This is clearly illustrated in The Book of Rites , chapter 4:

"In the first month of spring the east wind resolves the cold. Creatures that have been torpid during the winter begin to move.. All plants bud and grow. The sovereign charges his assistants to disseminate lessons of virtue and harmonise governmental order. Prohibitions are given against cutting down trees. [because wood is the symbol of spring] In this month no warlike operations should be undertaken; such an undertaking is sure to be followed by calamities of heaven (ie natural disasters)."

The Emperor's actions therefore directly affected the course of nature. And it was as a direct result of this symbiotic relationship between the Emperor and Nature that Imperial rule was legitimised in the eyes of the people. This is why the Chinese Emperor's official title was "Emperor through the Mandate of Heaven and in accordance with the movements of the Five Powers."

Establishment of the Confucianist Model

The above format, was combined with the (1) theory of yin and yang and (2) the doctrine of the mean, so that by the 12th century BC King Wen could symbolically represent the pattern of change within the universe in his famous work, the Yi Jing or Book of Changes . This was the cosmological model that Confucius inherited and elaborated with moral significance.

1) The Theory of Yin and Yang:

Yang originally meant sunshine and Yin darkness or shadow. Soon, though, they came to refer to two opposing yet complementary cosmic forces. Yang is the universal, masculine principle that denotes the vigorous, bright, hot, dry, hard and active, while Yin is the feminine principle that inspires the passive, docile, cold, dark, wet and gentle. It is the intercourse of these two forces or principles that not only produces all things, but also governs all processes of change.

According to the beliefs underpinning the Book of Changes everything in the universe has a universal principle which defines it. Thus, for example, all walls must correspond to certain specifications to be classified as such; a wall must be upright, solid and thin, otherwise it isn't a wall. In the same way, houses, vehicles and seasons are defined by universal principles. And the same is true for sons, wives, kings and farmers. They all conform to defining, universal principles.

It is then alleged that each of these principles contain and react to different measures of Yin and Yang, depending on circumstance. For example, when a minister talks to a sovereign he should be amenable and passive - a yin characteristic. Yet when, in ancient China, that minister returns home and talks to his family members he should behave in a decisive and firm manner - characteristics of yang. Thus the same thing or person can respond to the prevalent cosmic forces of Yin and Yang in different ways depending on time and circumstance.

Further, the Book of Changes assumes that the general movement of a body or idea or emotion between Yin and Yang is described by the concept of reversal. And so Lao Zi, the Daoist founder who promotes this concept, writes "reversal is the movement of the Power." This means, for example, that the movement of the sun to its zenith (associated with yang) precipitates its reverse movement to the nadir (associated with yin). Similarly, the excessive heat of summer (yang) brings about a reverse movement in the opposite direction to lead us towards winter (yin). Or else in terms of Chinese history, China's continuing fluctuations between political unification (yin) and fragmentation (yang) could be said to evidence this law. Thus every class of thing fluctuates between yin and yang polar opposites about a mean.

2) The Doctrine of the Mean:

This teaching claims that for harmony (the mean) to be ensured every process should happen at a time and in a way proper and fit for it to occur. Thus, winter should begin in December, babies should talk after two years and relatively young people should get married. If events happen in such a way as to conform to a natural sequence, then harmony will prevail and the events, incorporated within this harmonic order, will stand a better chance of being propitious.

In the 12th century BC the laws of the occult system, the theory of yin and yang and the law of the timely mean were synthesised into a complete cosmological and metaphysical system, which is symbolically represented in the Book of Changes .

The Book of Changes

The Book of Changes is comprised of a logically developing series of 64 images mapping every possible yin yang change process. Since every physical and abstract element of reality is susceptible to each of these defined change processes, the whole universe, past, present and future can be viewed through their images.

You use the book of changes like this: you go to a practitioner to inquire about an important event in your life. The practitioner, after a long procedure of yarrow stalk selection, will tell you which of the 64 change processes is controlling your particular event. She will show you its image, or "hexagram", and then will describe the usual characteristics of this change process in your circumstance, informing you how best to act (in accordance with the doctrine of the mean) in order to ensure the propitious completion of the event.

The images in the Book of Changes are called hexagrams, so called because they are made up of six lines. However, it is more correct to think of each hexagram as composed of two trigrams, one on top of the other, each of which is made up of three lines. There are in all 8 trigrams, and by combining each trigram with the other (8 x 8) you get the 64 images or hexagrams that make up the Book of Changes . Each trigram is made up of a combination of three undivided (yang) or divided (yin) lines. And, in the manner of the Five Powers, each trigram is associated with a variety of physical forces to form the visual representation of an interactively linked, dynamic universe. The fundamental visual concepts are expressed in the following popular schema. At the centre are the black and white Yin Yang fish, simultaneously combining to make a whole, flowing into one another to represent the endless process of change. Around this are each of the eight trigrams, placed in such a way as to correspond to their natural compass points.

http://www.imperialtours.net/images/inside_china/thought/occult_universe/occult_img_yi_jing.gif

When you read about Confucianism or Daoism, you will see how the main concepts of the Book of Changes are to be found at the root of much Chinese thought.

Article originally presented by Imperial Tours

[Doc Stier]

Excerpts from Science and Magic in Ge Hong's 'Baopu-Zi Nei Pian'
by Evgueni A. Tortchinov
St. Petersburg State University, Russia)

Firstly, Ge Hong rejects the opinion that only herbal drugs are beneficial for health as well as for the prolongation of life.

He states that drugs made from minerals and metallic substances are much more useful than the herbal ones. The herbal drugs are weak and the strong heat destroys them but minerals and metals are strong and stable: for example, the heat can not destroy cinnabar which changes itself into the "water silver", or mercury. After this statement, Ge Hong notes that ordinary people do not know even such simple things as the origin of the cinnabar (HgS) in the mercury. They say that cinnabar is red and the mercury is white and so, it is impossible that the white substance produces the red one.

The second aspect of this passage is more interesting. Ge Hong declares that the common people ("worldly people", or shi ren ) are ignorant even of such things as the nature of the cinnabar and so, it is not surprising that they do not believe in such subtle things as the way of immortality.

Ge Hong describes the healing qualities of different plants and herbs, but, as he states, the common people do not want to use them and prefer the superstitious religious methods of healing (such as prayers, sacrifices, fortune-telling, etc.). They do not believe in the art of the famous physicians but rely on shamans and sorcerers. And if it is so, it is very naturally that they do not believe that because of the eating of the Golden and Cinnabar Elixirs immortality can be obtained. Moreover, they reject even the usefulness of mushrooms and flowers for the prolongation of life. How can we hope that they will recognize the truthfulness of the way of immortals?

It is significant that Ge Hong treats the Daoist alchemy with its super mundane aims in the same terms as the traditional medicine and pharmacology. Thus, alchemy and the "arts of immortals" for Ge Hong are not of supernatural, or religious nature; they are "positive" and "scientific" in the same way as medicine and pharmacology are. The rejection of these arts certifies the ignorance of the common people preferring the "superstitious" religious ways to the means of medicine and the Daoist arts which have the same character as medicine. And this character is quite opposed to the superstitious nature of purely religious practices.

Ge Hong not only demonstrates the contrast between the "scientific" knowledge of the sages and the ignorance of the ordinary people but uses the "positive", or "experimental" contents of the Daoist texts for support of his Daoist approaches. Ge Hong's beliefs in immortality and alchemy obtain their "scientific" ground in the empirical and positive sides of the Daoist classics (jing) becoming the proven results of the real verified knowledge. Thus, knowledge and experience (not faith, or intuition) were the basis of Ge Hong's beliefs in the immortals and in the Daoist methods of the attainment of their exalted state.

Nevertheless, it is obvious that BPZNP is full of the information about magical and supernatural events which are for the external observer quite identical with the contents of the beliefs of the Ge Hong's opponents. But for Ge Hong himself they are very different: for him the Daoist beliefs, the ardent proponent of which he was, had a scientific and positive nature based on the experimental data and positive knowledge of the sages (being of the same kind as the data of medicine, etc.), and the beliefs of his opponents were devoid of such basis, being superstitious and ignorant. It is possible to note that there were two kinds of Ge Hong's opponents and interlocutors: the representatives of the so called Confucian rationalism and the "superstitious" followers of the folk religious cults.


It is substantial for Ge Hong to have authoritative sources of information recognized by the Daoist tradition (the knowledge of the lineage of the holders of the text is also important). Such sources are called by Ge Hong "The Classics of Immortals" (xian jing). Not only the origin in the Daoist classics was the testimony of the validity of the information about the immortals and immortality for Ge Hong. He also evaluated greatly the witnesses of the Chinese authoritative texts of the Confucian and historiographical tradition.

It can be said that Ge Hong recognizes the following criteria of the validity of the beliefs and different kinds of opinions related to the subjects of science and religion: 1. The experience; 2. The testimonies of the Daoist Classics and of the well known and highly estimated by the Chinese tradition non-Daoist texts. The practices and beliefs which had no such scriptural support (as in the case of the folk beliefs and cults) were rejected by Ge Hong as superstitious and excessive. Thus, Ge Hong tries to represent his techniques of immortality and his alchemical and occult ideas as an integral part of the "great tradition" of the Chinese culture. For him they are not only equal to the ideas of the Confucian sages but even higher and more exalted than the Confucian doctrines (according to Ge Hong's position Confucianism is the branch and Daoism is its root).

It is rather clear that Ge Hong greatly evaluates experience and laboratory alchemical operations. But these operations as such have direct relations to magic and ritual behaviour. It is impossible to divide technical, magical and ritualistic aspects of the scientific approaches of Ge Hong. He denies the idea of the automatic, or mechanical effect of the elixirs, combining the technical and chemical procedures with fasting, prayers and purification.

Thus, it can be said that practical character of Ge Hong's alchemy does not prevent him from the declaration of highly ritualized nature of the alchemical doings. Therefore, it bears remarkable (to the mind of a contemporary Westerner, of course) contradiction between science and magic. And this magic permeates the very core of Ge Hong's understanding of alchemy and medicine. But this magic is of quite another nature than the superstitious beliefs of the common people: it has its roots in the Daoist stratum of the great tradition of the Chinese culture being to Ge Hong's mind supported by the experience of the sages of old who transmitted their knowledge and methods to the contemporary Daoists throw the unbreakable lineage from one mater to another.

Moreover, this experience of the ancient sages must not be only a subject of the so called "blind faith": it can be verified by the alchemist throw his own laboratory doings. Ge Hong does not admire the antiquity as such. Like ancient Legalists and his predecessor in the field of skepticism and empiricism Wang Chong, Ge Hong looks at the antiquity like on the trace of a giant: the giant has gone away and his trace is not he himself. Therefore, the ancient witnesses for Ge Hong have their value only within the frame of the Daoist experimental approach. If Ge Hong was only a mystic it could be waited for his interest in the intuitive insights into the hidden nature of the reality underlying the transitory phenomena. But we can not find such an interest. The passages dedicated to the meditative practices for metaphysical understanding are very rare in BPZNP. The only exception is the beginning of the 18th chapter of this work (Di zhen) dedicated to the contemplation of the True One (zhen yi) which is the manifestation of the Mysterious Dao (xuan) in the things and in the physiological structures of the Daoist "subtle body" ("the fields of cinnabar", dantian). But even this passage relates mostly to the practices of the "preservation of the One" (shou yi) and not to the insight type meditations. The aids of these kind of contemplation are protection from the enemies and illness, the obtaining of super powers throw multiplication of the body, etc.

The practical sides of Daoism (the preparation of the great elixir of immortality and supporting methods) and corresponding to them the doctrines of the immortals - xian are the principle subjects of Ge Hong's interests which directly correlate to his scientific and experiential approaches. To my mind, Ge Hong was not a mystic or a seeker of intuitive insights but an investigator, researcher of nature with pragmatic attitude (the obtaining of physical immortality), and experimental and skeptical thinker. The abundance of magic in his writings was a result of an essential character of the traditional science which included in itself magic and magical attitudes (e.g. the idea of the universal sympathies, Chinese "tong lei") not only in China but throughout the world until the time of Newton, Galileo Galilei and Descartes.

Doc

[Doc Stier]

The Supreme Jade Emperor's Embryo Breath Scripture

Translated into English by Frederic Henry Balfour, 1884

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Heavenly Lord Jade Emperor says:

The Embryo is formed by the concretion of concealed Breath; and the Embryo being brought into existence, the Breath begins to move in Respiration.

The entrance of Breath into the body is Life; the departure of the Spirit from the external form is Death.

He who understands the Spirit and the Breath may live for ever; he who rigorously maintains the Empty and Non-existent may thereby nourish the Spirit and the Breath.

When the Spirit moves the Breath moves; when Spirit is still the Breath is still.

If you desire to attain to immortality, the Spirit and the Breath must be diffused through one another.

If the Heart is perfectly devoid of thoughts -- neither going nor coming, issuing nor entering -- it will dwell permanently within of its own accord.

Be diligent in pursuing this course; for it is the true road to take.

http://free.000angels.com/libran/body/szt1.jpg

http://free.000angels.com/libran/body/szt0.jpg

************************************************** ***************

BTW, although many of the posts submitted on this thread are quite interesting and informative, they are off-topic, IMO. This thread topic is devoted to a discussion of Chinese Alchemy, not Chan Buddhism. Perhaps one of you should start a separate thread for continued discussion of that topic elsewhere. :)

Doc

[sanjuro_ronin]

Are you refering to "jing/semen retention" for example ?
I have heard concerns voiced by urologists and such in regards to this practice.

I guess this was missed...would still like an opinion though, please and thank you.

[Doc Stier]

sanjuro:

I can only speak of my own personal experience in training with Taoist Nei-Tan, Yoga Pranayama, Tibetan Yoga, and other advanced Chi-Kung methods, which involve regulated breathwork, breath retention formulas, breath locking methods, or other internal techniques of energy modification and control. All such practices and training methods present the very real potential for internal injury if performed incorrectly and too strenuously. :eek:

Caution is advised always, and I believe that such practices should never be attempted through self-instruction from books and so forth, but should always be learned from a competent and experienced teacher for this reason. In this way, such techniques can be safely learned and practiced without injury, and without harming overall health, but instead will serve to build inner strength and health, not demolish it. :)

Doc

[sanjuro_ronin]

sanjuro:

I can only speak of my own personal experience in training with Taoist Nei-Tan practices, Yoga Pranayama practices, Tibetan Yoga, and other advanced Chi-Kung methods, which involve regulated breathwork, breath retention formulas, breath locking methods, or other internal techniques of energy modification and control. All such practices and training methods present the very real potential for internal injury if performed incorrectly and too strenuously. :eek:

Caution is advised always, and I believe that such practices should never be attempted through self-instruction from books and so forth, but should always be learned from a competent and experienced teacher for this reason. :)

Doc

I see, makes sense of course.
My experience with "advanced breathe work" is limited to hard qigong like the Sanchin and Sam Chin forms, and the hard/soft type of the Iron vest and Iron wire, but I have not "focused" on the IV or IW at this point.
In many types of "iron" training, such as Iron Palm, they speak of and recommend "semen retention" for the build up of chi, but from what I hear, urologists and such have issues with that.

[Doc Stier]

In many types of "iron" training, such as Iron Palm, they speak of and recommend "semen retention" for the build up of chi, but from what I hear, urologists and such have issues with that.



I think the main health concerns are mostly in regard to techniques which strive to prevent the normal ejaculation of semen during sexual climax and orgasm by forcibly attempting to retain it at that time with specific methods of muscle contraction and mental visualization. This is oftentimes much like trying to prevent urination when the urinary bladder is completely full, and the immediate need to empty the bladder is URGENT, or like trying to retain a bowel movement that demands to be evacuated IMMEDIATELY! :eek:

Thus, if semen retention techniques are practiced too often or too strenuously, there is likely to be some harmful effect or outright injury to the prostate gland and urethra, and perhaps other associated organs, as a result. But here again, it is primarily the overzealous and overstrenuous use of such methods which causes harm, not usually a more normal and moderate practice of these techniques. ;)

Doc

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think the main health concerns are mostly in regard to techniques which strive to prevent the normal ejaculation of semen during sexual climax and orgasm by forcibly attempting to retain it at that time with specific methods of muscle contraction and mental visualization. This is oftentimes much like trying to prevent urination when the urinary bladder is completely full, and the immediate need to empty the bladder is urgent, or like trying to retain a bowel movement that demands to be evacuated IMMEDIATELY! :eek: As such, if semen retention techniques are practiced too often or too strenuously, there is likely to be some harmful effect or outright injury to the prostate gland and urethra, and perhaps other associated organs, as a result. But here again, it is primarily the overzealous and overstrenuous use of such methods which causes harm, not usually a more normal and moderate practice of these techniques. ;)

Doc

Ah, thought so, I recall reading where, depending on ones age, there is a certain amount of time between climaxing, I think ( for example) in one's 30's that one should go 14 days between climaxes ( not no sex mind you, just no happy endings for the male :D ).
This had to do with the bodies ability to "replenish" the spent jing.

[Doc Stier]

Quite so! :D The game can still be alot of fun to play, even if you don't hit a home-run every time at bat! ;)

Doc

[tai chi hermit]

so does anyone have a site w/ info on bringing food into the mountains or making while there or anything of this sort.

thanks

[Doc Stier]

hermit:

Check these sites out for great info on subsistence living skills, and opportunities to participate in some awesome on-site learning programs, whether short-term weekend workshops or year-round living and learning experiences:

http://www.hopspress.com/Books/Reviews_Participating.htm

http://www.earthways.net/

http://www.1stalaskaoutdoorschool.com/index.htm

http://www.primitive.org/

http://www.dacres.org/Opportunities.htm

http://www.jackmtn.com/skills.html

http://www.primitive.org/nothing.htm

Doc :)

[cjurakpt]

hey Scott - sorry, missed this one


Actually D.T. Suzuki, in his commentary on the Sutra of Hui-Neng, states that according to Hui-Neng, this is exactly what the mind does . The only thing that may be used to solve the problem of the mind is the mind itself. It is mind turning back on itself that observes itself and knows itself. We commonly call this introspection.
well, I would agree at the beginning - in other words, it is the mind that realizes that, in the words of the Great Sage Daffy Duck - "sumptin's amiss here", and so one consciously embarks on a quest of self-improvement (first mistake! 20 blows!); from the perspective of my experience in Ch'an practice, you then can "do" any number of meditative exercises (counting breath, mantra recitation, etc.) - and one is certainly using mind to monitor one's internal state - surfing the balance of agitation and dllness (if you're not thinking about paying bills, you're falling asleep, right?); at some point, the mind "settles", and one is no longer "thinking" about what is going on, there is simply perception of suchness, without the filter of analysis; the "idea" is that the mind no longer functions as an intermediary, but steps out of the way - this "state of awareness", if one has experienced it, is like a tall glass of cool mountain spring water - crisp yet without flavor, and very refreshing (from personal experience that's as far as I can tell you - the rest would be passing on the dregs of someone elses meal, not just of my own!); but the point is, if it is mind introspecting, it is not doing so in the "everday" sense of it - you are not "figuring out" what is wrong and how to fix it (unlike psychotherapy), so that's what I guess I meant...

also, thinking about Hui Neng - the way he became awakened, according to the tory, he simply heard the Bddha Dharma recited once, and got it - was he using mind?


When we transcend our conditioned interpretation of experiences it is easy to turn off the survival mechanism. This is because one perceives the inherent illusion of fear to begin with. In the end this is the greater or true survival mechanism. One's survival is not in question therefore there is nothing to fear. When there is nothing to fear our chances of physical survival are increased as a natural consequence.
it's an interesting proposition - I don't disagree, but it seems a bit paradoxical - when you stop caring about whether you live or die, it suggests you may not do something that would otherwise save life; at the same time, perhaps ones field of awareness is such that one is never in the wrong place at the wrong time? or perhaps none is able to respond in a life-sustaining manner but without the fear response mediating it...in a vry small way, I can say I have experienced the benefit of this approach in dealing with certain aspects of life - the big one is fear of death - it's easy to think you have overcome that, but since we have minimal opportunity to test if that is really the case, it's hard to say...:p

anyway, thanks for the input...

[Doc Stier]

cjurakpt:

Once again, for the sake of staying on topic, and with all due respect, how does most of this ongoing reference to and discussion of Chan Buddhism realistically relate to the thread topic of Neidan Taoist Alchemy? :confused: It seems that most of the posters on this thread have no personal knowledge of Taoist Alchemy, no personal experience with Taoist Alchemy practices, or simply no personal interest in the subject matter, and thus have nothing to contribute to a discussion of the topic.

The continuing discussion of Chan Buddhism on this thread has certainly been quite interesting and informative, but really deserves to have its own thread, IMO, since it is not the topic of this thread. ;)

Doc

[tai chi hermit]

this kinda pertains to the topic..... taoists really look up those who have discovered/reached immortality/longevity, but that is not what is natural. TAO-ists not being natural and following along with aging mean....?

[cjurakpt]

Once again, for the sake of staying on topic, and with all due respect, how does most of this ongoing reference to and discussion of Chan Buddhism realistically relate to the thread topic of Neidan Taoist Alchemy? :confused:
actually a great deal, since they at once compliment each other (there is at least one practice with which I am familiar - Zhuen Ti Practice - that combines the two) and at the same time contradict each other, which, from the perspective of Chinese history / philosophy is not insignificant - if I recall, the whole thing came up in terms of comparative assessment of one to the other, so as far as staying "on topic", it seemed to evolve naturally out of the discussion, so that's how it occured (maybe I was the one who did that - I forget and am too lazy to go back and look; BTW, I missed where you mentioned this the first time, so sorry if it seemed I was ignoring it); anyway, most threads on KFM seem to drift and meander prety regularly, most people don't seem to care, so that's just how I'm used to it going; maybe it's a bit less so over on EF? well, I'll try to be more acutely conscious about it in the future, although I can't promise I won't drift again...

It seems that most of the posters on this thread have no personal knowledge of Taoist Alchemy, no personal experience with Taoist Alchemy practices, or simply no personal interest in the subject matter, and thus have nothing to contribute to a discussion of the topic.
well, I mean, I could describe what it was like over the 100 or so days when my own Siu Jou Tin pathway "opened", or likewise what was similar / different with the Greater Circulation, but does anyone else really care? I could also describe the way our particular school (Complete Reality School, Dragon Gate Sect), does it, but I don't want to be responsbile for someone misunderstanding it and flairing up their sympathetics, spiking their BP and having one biotch of a headche for 3 days; one thing we do consider is that any sensations are merely one of 8 aberrant manifestations of "qi" (tightness, itches, ache, vibration, sound, image, smell and cold) that are part of old injuries being healed, and are not indicative of anything beyond that (personally, I see it as the ANS and the CT system rebalancing themselves); anyway, the key is to work with someone experienced (unlike Jung who supposedly used Willhelm's poorly translated work on the subject and evidently ended up needing to live alone a cottage and playing with little toy soldiers to get his brain back to normal - or so I have heard...)

as far as semen retention, in our particular practice the perspective is that once you get aroused, any semen that you would "retain" is already "tainted" by the arousal itself, so you may as well go ahead and enjoy yourself; otherwise, as far as the Medline literature goes, there does not seem to be any evidence of medical problems associated with retrograde ejaculation, although I don't know what is acutally being retained as an semen is being urinated out anyway (but you do have a shorter refractory period afterwards, for what it's worth)

The continuing discussion of Chan Buddhism on this thread has certainly been quite interesting and informative, but really deserves to have its own thread, IMO, since it is not the topic of this thread. ;)
guess Scott took care of that, so no worries

[Doc Stier]

A common obstacle for Westerners in approaching the Nei-Tan literature and practices seems to be tied to a cultural unfamiliarity with its core philosophical and metaphysical concepts. Thus, in order to work with the notion of cultivating a Golden Elixir (Chin-Tan), it is necessary to grasp the idea of a basic Inner Elixir (Nei-Tan) which is traditionally considered common to all, emanating from the Primeval Beginnings (Hun-Cheng) and shared by everyone alike.

Liu Yiming (1734-1821) states in his writings that "Golden Elixir is another name for one's Fundamental Nature, formed out of Primeval Beginnings. There is no other Golden Elixir outside one's Fundamental Nature. Every human being has this Golden Elixir complete in oneself, and it is entirely achieved in everybody. It is neither more in a sage, nor less in an ordinary person. It is the Seed of Immortals and Buddhas, and the root of worthies and sages". As such, this Inner Elixar represents 'Superior Virtue' (Shang-Te) manifested as the personal Self-Realization of the original "Celestial Reality" (Tien-Chen), the unconditioned, unchanging, primary components of existence and being, viz. Ching, Chi, and Shen.

The culmination of Nei-Tan training and practices, therefore, is to successfully 'Return' (Huan) to the 'Emptiness' (Kong) of the original state of Nothingness (Wu) from which Ching, Chi, and Shen originally came. This is accomplished by "refining Vital Essence (Ching) in order to transform it into Intrinsic Energy (Chi)" , then "refining Intrinsic Energy (Chi) in order to transform it into Spirit (Shen)", and finally by "refining Spirit (Shen) in order to Return (Huan) to Unconditioned Nothingness (Wu)."

In this manner, while the Tao-Te Ching states: "The Tao generates the One, the One generates the Two, the Two generate the Three, and the Three generate the Ten Thousand Myriad Things", the Nei-Tan practices employ a kind of reverse technology which retraces these stages of development back to the Primeval Beginnings of the Cosmos.

Doc

[cjurakpt]

the Nei-Tan practices employ a kind of reverse technology which retraces these stages of development back to the Primeval Beginnings of the Cosmos.

which is played out allegorically/spatialy in the taiji form as well

[Doc Stier]

Good Tai-Chi Chuan certainly holds the potential to employ the Nei-Tan process, but few modern practitioners seem to be interested in training seriously enough to do so. Too bad, really, not to go for the full meal deal, wouldn't you agree?

Doc

[qiew]

A common obstacle for Westerners in approaching the Nei-Tan literature and practices seems to be tied to a cultural unfamiliarity with its core philosophical and metaphysical concepts. Thus, in order to work with the notion of cultivating a Golden Elixir (Chin-Tan), it is necessary to grasp the idea of a basic Inner Elixir (Nei-Tan) which is traditionally considered common to all, emanating from the Primeval Beginnings (Hun-Cheng) and shared by everyone alike.

Liu Yiming (1734-1821) states in his writings that "Golden Elixir is another name for one's Fundamental Nature, formed out of Primeval Beginnings. There is no other Golden Elixir outside one's Fundamental Nature. Every human being has this Golden Elixir complete in oneself, and it is entirely achieved in everybody. It is neither more in a sage, nor less in an ordinary person. It is the Seed of Immortals and Buddhas, and the root of worthies and sages". As such, this Inner Elixar represents 'Superior Virtue' (Shang-Te) manifested as the personal Self-Realization of the original "Celestial Reality" (Tien-Chen), the unconditioned, unchanging, primary components of existence and being, viz. Ching, Chi, and Shen.

The culmination of Nei-Tan training and practices, therefore, is to successfully 'Return' (Huan) to the 'Emptiness' (Kong) of the original state of Nothingness (Wu) from which Ching, Chi, and Shen originally came. This is accomplished by "refining Vital Essence (Ching) in order to transform it into Intrinsic Energy (Chi)" , then "refining Intrinsic Energy (Chi) in order to transform it into Spirit (Shen)", and finally by "refining Spirit (Shen) in order to Return (Huan) to Unconditioned Nothingness (Wu)."

In this manner, while the Tao-Te Ching states: "The Tao generates the One, the One generates the Two, the Two generate the Three, and the Three generate the Ten Thousand Myriad Things", the Nei-Tan practices employ a kind of reverse technology which retraces these stages of development back to the Primeval Beginnings of the Cosmos.

Doc



Hi, Doc

Basically I understand the principle of your saying above and the NeiDan Tu (micro.jpg). Can you recommend me any web sites or books, Chinese or English, to further my knowledge on the Nei Dan. In fact, I am practricing now under a sifu after 8 years of cultivating micro and macro orbiting qigong. My sifu, a Chinese is not good on explaining the principles.

Thanks.

Qiew

[Doc Stier]

Hi Qiew!

Understood. Check these sites out as a starting point. Hopefully they will fill in some of the gaps in information.

Doc

http://www.eng.taoism.org.hk/daoism&human-civilization/daoism&scientific-civilization/pg5-1-3-1.asp

http://www.literati-tradition.com/meditative_practice.html

http://www.stanford.edu/~pregadio/jindan_texts.html

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Can you recommend me any web sites or books, Chinese or English, to further my knowledge on the Nei Dan.
If you haven't read any of Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming's works, you might check them out, good material on basics, processes and practice.. direct training with Dr. Yang is a real eye-opener..

Now, aside from the academic demonstrations, the admonishments of protocol, and the attachment to dogma.. i make the following statement with the understanding that i am subject to disciplinary wisdom... Tradition is the enemy of progress and the foundation of understanding.. separation and exclusion are concepts not consistent with experience of Tao..

Be well..

[Scott R. Brown]

Greetings..


If you haven't read any of Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming's works, you might check them out, good material on basics, processes and practice.. direct training with Dr. Yang is a real eye-opener..

Now, aside from the academic demonstrations, the admonishments of protocol, and the attachment to dogma.. i make the following statement with the understanding that i am subject to disciplinary wisdom... Tradition is the enemy of progress and the foundation of understanding.. separation and exclusion are concepts not consistent with experience of Tao..

Be well..

Hi Bob,

Tradition, separation and exclusion are just as much facets of Tao as any other experience, principle or phenomena and, as such, each has value or not according to the context.

It is not whether we participate in any of these that creates the error. It is the clinging to any of these that creates error.

Clinging leads to stagnation and stagnation limits growth which, according to a specific perspective, may be viewed as a detriment. But even detriments have something to teach us if we are willing to pay attention to the lesson. This allows the detriment to become a benefit which makes the whole process merely another avenue of bringing ourselves into accord with Tao.

It is important to remember that judgments that create labels are just as contrived as anything else in life. Judgment/discernment applies only to the contrived context of he who judges/discerns. Re-define the context and the conclusion may be viewed in a new light.

It is all Tao! The quality of the experience changes according to the context and we determine the context each for ourselves. Since we determine the context we are each responsible for the consequences of our determinations/experiences.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hi Scott: Of course it's ALL Tao.. it cannot be otherwise.. my reference is to the "generally expressed desire" toward unifying our experiences in a manner consistent with a harmonious existence.. but, your critique is a consistent expression of Tao, and appreciated for its consistency..

Be well..

[Scott R. Brown]

Greetings..

Hi Scott: Of course it's ALL Tao.. it cannot be otherwise.. my reference is to the "generally expressed desire" toward unifying our experiences in a manner consistent with a harmonious existence.. but, your critique is a consistent expression of Tao, and appreciated for its consistency..

Be well..

Hi Bob,

It is a contrivance to attempt to unify "our experiences in a manner consistent with a harmonious existence". Harmony does not consist of "a desire to be harmonious" and then working towards it. Harmony as a principle occurs naturally, of itself, when we “get out of the way” of Tao and “allow it to occur”. Harmony naturally occurs because Tao seeks balance, or IS balance, or maintains balance as an inherent principle of Te.

Once we contrive to create or acquire Harmony we pursue an arbitrarily determined definition. We impose our own idea of what we think Harmony “should” be onto Tao. Having said that, the concept of Balance/Harmony is illustrated by Yin-Yang and observed by direct experience to reflect a rhythmic alternation between two contrasting principles. It is not a still point or fixed condition. It involves both conflict and no-conflict. Balance is maintained when the contrasting principles alternate between their extremes. There is no still point between the two.

Error occurs when we try to project our desire to avoid the unpleasantness of conflict onto Tao by clinging to the desire for a constant condition of no-conflict. By preferring one over the other we actually participate in contriving a condition that will result in a return to the contrasting/opposing principle. The more we cling to one of the contrasting principles the more likely the return will involve a catastrophic/abrupt return.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

LOL, Scott.. and, occasionally, reducing everything to its neutral position discounts the "Tao of Desire", as it is also no less Tao.. desire is unavoidable, wise application of it is Tao.. unwise application is Tao.. attachment is Tao.. contriving is Tao.. Desire for harmony is more beneficial than desire for harm.. embracing one's desire as a naturally occurring expression of self is Tao.. resistance to desire is Tao.. i seek the benefit, the most functional expression of "who i perceive myself to be"..

Be well..

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Bob,

LOL!! You got me there, LOL!!:p :)

[Doc Stier]

Here's an old translation of a Taoist Classic which presents an interesting perspective on the subject of 'harmony' for those who may not have read it previously.

Doc

************************************************** ***************

Classic of the Harmony of the Seen and the Unseen

Translated into English by James Legge, 1891


If one observes the Way of Heaven, and maintains Its doings (as his own), all that he has to do is accomplished.

To Heaven there belong the five (mutual) foes, and he who sees them (and understands their operation) apprehends how they produce prosperity. The same five foes are in the mind of man, and when he can set them in action after the manner of Heaven, all space and time are at his disposal, and all things receive their transformations from his person.

The nature of Heaven belongs (also) to Man; the mind of Man is a spring (of power). When the Way of Heaven is established, the (Course of) Man is thereby determined.

When Heaven puts forth its power of putting to death, the stars and constellations lie hidden in darkness. When Earth puts forth its power of putting to death, dragons and serpents appear on the dry ground. When Man puts forth his power of putting to death, Heaven and Earth resume their (proper course). When Heaven and Man exert their powers in concert, all transformations have their commencements determined.

The nature (of man) is here clever and there stupid; and the one of these qualities may lie hidden in the other. The abuse of the nine apertures is (chiefly) in the three most important, which may be now in movement and now at rest.

When fire arises in wood, the evil, having once begun, is sure to go on to the destruction of the wood. When calamity arises in a state, if thereafter movement ensue, it is sure to go to ruin.

When one conducts the work of culture and refining wisely we call him a Sage.

For Heaven now to give life and now to take it away is the method of the Tao. Heaven and Earth are the despoilers of all things; all things are the despoilers of Man; and Man is the despoiler of all things. When the three despoilers act as they ought to do, as the three Powers, they are at rest. Hence it is said, 'During the time of nourishment, all the members are properly regulated; when the springs of motion come into play, all transformations quietly take place.'

Men know the mysteriousness of the Spirit's (action), but they do not know how what is not Spiritual comes to be so. The sun and moon have their definite times, and their exact measures as large and small. The service of the sages hereupon arises, and the spiritual intelligence becomes apparent.

The spring by which the despoilers are moved is invisible and unknown to all under the sky. When the superior man has got it, he strengthens his body by it; when the small man has got it, he makes light of his life.

The blind hear well, and the deaf see well. To derive all that is advantageous from one source is ten times better than the employment of a host; to do this thrice in a day and night is a myriad times better.

The mind is quickened (to activity) by (external) things, and dies through (excessive pursuit of) them. The spring (of the mind's activity) is in the eyes.

Heaven has no (special feeling of) kindness, but so it is that the greatest kindness comes from It.

The crash of thunder and the blustering wind both come without design.

Perfect enjoyment is the overflowing satisfaction of the nature. Perfect stillness is the entire disinterestedness of it. When Heaven seems to be most wrapt up in Itself, Its operation is universal in its character.

It is by its breath that we control whatever creature we grasp. Life is the root of death, and death is the root of life. Kindness springs from injury, and injury springs from kindness. He who sinks himself in water or enters amidst fire brings destruction on himself.

The stupid man by studying the phenomena and laws of heaven and earth becomes sage; I by studying their times and productions become intelligent. He in his stupidity is perplexed about sageness; I in my freedom from stupidity am the same. He considers his sageness as being an extraordinary attainment; I do not consider mine so.

The method of spontaneity proceeds in stillness, and so it was that heaven, earth, and all things were produced. The method of heaven and earth proceeds gently and gradually, and thus it is that the Yin and Yang overcome (each other by turns). The one takes the place of the other, and so change and transformation proceed accordingly.

Therefore the sages, knowing that the method of spontaneity cannot be resisted, take action accordingly and regulate it (for the purpose of culture). The way of perfect stillness cannot be subjected to numerical calculations; but it would seem that there is a wonderful machinery, by which all the heavenly bodies are produced, the eight diagrams, and the sexagenary cycle; spirit-like springs of power, and hidden ghostlinesses; the arts of the Yin and Yang in the victories of the one over the other:--all these come brightly forward into visibility.

[chessman71]

Doc,
That was a particularly nice piece from Legge. He's one of my favorite translators. I also find it interesting that he was a Christian missionary.

Pieces like that provide a nice context for the neigong. Without them, the practice can veer off into personal tangents fairly quickly. I'm finding the philosophical writings definitely have a place in the practice.

[Doc Stier]

Perhaps you'll also like these excerpts from Mr. Legge's translation of the Wai Wu.


Wâi Wû, or 'What comes from Without Translated by James Legge

What comes from without cannot be determined beforehand. When wood is rubbed against wood, it begins to burn; when metal is subjected to fire, it melts and flows. When the Yin and Yang act awry, heaven and earth are greatly perturbed; and on this comes the crash of thunder, and from the rain comes fire, which consumes great locust trees The case of men is still worse. They are troubled between two pitfalls, from which they cannot escape. Chrysalis-like, they can accomplish nothing. Their minds are as if hung up between heaven and earth. Now comforted, now pitied, they are plunged in difficulties. The ideas of profit and of injury rub against each other, and produce in them a very great fire. The harmony of the mind is consumed in the mass of men. Their moonlike intelligence cannot overcome the inward fire. They thereupon fall away more and more, and the Course of Tao, which they should pursue, is altogether lost.

We see from this that wisdom is not without its perils, and spirit-like intelligence does not reach to everything. A man may have the greatest wisdom, but there are a myriad men scheming against him. Fishes do not fear the net, though they fear the pelican. Put away your small wisdom, and your great wisdom will be bright; discard your skillfulness, and you will become naturally skillful. A child when it is born needs no great master, and yet it becomes able to speak, living among those who are able to speak.

It is the penetrating eye that gives clear vision, the acute car that gives quick hearing, the discriminating nose that gives discernment of odours, the practised mouth that gives the enjoyment of flavours, the active mind that acquires knowledge, and the far-reaching knowledge that constitutes virtue. In no case does the connexion with what is without like to be obstructed; obstruction produces stoppage; stoppage, continuing without intermission, arrests all progress; and with this all injurious effects spring up.

The knowledge of all creatures depends on their breathing. But if their breath be not abundant, it is not the fault of Heaven, which tries to penetrate them with it, day and night without ceasing; but men notwithstanding shut their pores against it. Words are employed to convey ideas; but when the ideas are apprehended, men forget the words.

Edited by Doc Stier