Where do techniues come from?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

If a technique is something unique to a particular style, say a punch known to have come from and is unique to Chinese Long Fist, and it finds it's way into the UFC because the fighter picked it up somewhere during his career, is that technique suddenly not Chinese Long Fist anymore?

What if it is done exactly like it is done in the form, and delivered exactly that same as it was before the Long Fist guy taught it to the Kempo guy, who taught it to our UFC fighter?

If it is suddenly not Chinese Kung Fu anymore because it is in the UFC now (Despite being STILL Identical to when it was Kung Fu), then how is it that the Muy Tai Round Kick is still Muy Tai?

[Lucas]

its all denial. no one wants to have any ties to cma if they are a pro mma fighters.

it hurts their egos, and makes them weep like small school girls when they are alone.

[Mano Mano]

I’ve always held the view that it’s the culture surrounding the system that makes that system either Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Thai, Filipino, Russian or American.

[cjurakpt]

if a technique works in reality, then it is more than plausible that someone spending a lot of time applying their art for real will spontaneously come up with it on their own; if it looks "exactly" the same as in the form, then it's either coincidence, or the form has retainined the reality-based structure of the move

as to whether a technique is or isn't "Longfist" or muay thai, that's also easy - if someone learned it from a particular style, he or she will typically call it as such; a few generations down the road, it may not be called that anymore - so a MT roundkick is called as such, but a few gen down in an MMA setting, and it will possibly loose that name (or not, depends on the teacher); at some point, it may be structurally different enough as well based on the experience of the person using it

labels really only matter if one self-identifies with a particular style (e.g. - "I am the GM of whatsamattado, and if not that, then I am nothing"); otherwise, what difference does it really make?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

abels really only matter if one self-identifies with a particular style (e.g. - "I am the GM of whatsamattado, and if not that, then I am nothing"); otherwise, what difference does it really make

Reply]
I suppose you have a point.

From what I understand of the history of my style, originally it was just loose techniques, and there was no actual form. The founder was a military General, and he was exposed to various military styles of his time. He basically collected all his favorite techniques and compiled them into one system of loose techniques. Except for the lack of ground wrestling, it seems it was pretty much like what modern MMA people do, only he did it around 960 AD.

So many of the techniques I use, might be better identified from other styles, than my own as it does not look like the founder actually developed anything unique.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vqmgJIJM98&mode=related&search=

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vqmgJIJM98&mode=related&search=

Ah the Chuckster...

[sanjuro_ronin]

From what I understand of the history of my style, originally it was just loose techniques, and there was no actual form. The founder was a military General, and he was exposed to various military styles of his time.


I take it, it is a more grappling and weapons oriented system ?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

There is a lot of stand up grappling & throws. Most of it is weapons, only about 100 maybe 150 of it's techniques are empty hand, and most of those are weapons techniques that were modified to be done empty handed so the soldier didn't have to learn two separate systems.

There is plenty of striking though. The founder was the personal body Guard of the Emperor prior to being assigned the task of commanding the troops a a General, so it's not a pure battle field system. It's more just a tool box of the favorite things he did at one time or another over the course of his whole life, so there is a mix of things in there.

There is a military system named after him too, but he didn't develop it. It's just what his elite Troops used after he ascended the thrown. It probably had more influence on his system, than the other way around.

[lkfmdc]

If a technique is something unique to a particular style, say a punch known to have come from and is unique to Chinese Long Fist,



ok, here's a simple one then, tell us what technique is UNIQUE to CMA that we can't find in other non-CMA traditions?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Well, I am thinking that over hand where you hit with the knuckle like that.

If you know other non CMA styles that do that, name them. maybe we could look into Kempo history and see if they were an influence.

[cjurakpt]

ok, here's a simple one then, tell us what technique is UNIQUE to CMA that we can't find in other non-CMA traditions?

Weasel Steals the Cream Bun...

[mantis108]

Well, Kung Fu isn't about ownership. The whole idea of this style do things "this way" and therefore "this way" belongs to the this style is superficial understanding of Kung Fu IMHO. If that's true, there will always be only one type of Kung Fu. We will never have so many styles in the first place.

In theory, an individual technique in Kung Fu can not be taken out of context from the style/system. If the said technique is severed from the style/system, it is just that - being cut off; therefore, the technique no longer has "life". It's something else but not kung Fu per se and certainly not the style anymore. So context is everything in Kung Fu. Techniques are just that - techniques. No ownership ever applied in that case.

Just some thoughts.

Mantis108

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Well, Kung Fu isn't about ownership. The whole idea of this style do things "this way" and therefore "this way" belongs to the this style is superficial understanding of Kung Fu

Reply]
Actually, that is what seperates the various styles into individual entities.

IMHO. If that's true, there will always be only one type of Kung Fu. We will never have so many styles in the first place.

In theory, an individual technique in Kung Fu can not be taken out of context from the style/system.


Reply]
No, what determines the style is often the way a techniques is done, or the body mechanics of it's power issuing..baring rare unique techniques that would be considered stylistic markers anyway.



If the said technique is severed from the style/system, it is just that - being cut off; therefore, the technique no longer has "life". It's something else but not kung Fu per se and certainly not the style anymore.

Reply]
If the technique is being performed the same way, with the same body mechanics, and used the same way, it's still Kung Fu, no matter who does it, where.


So context is everything in Kung Fu. Techniques are just that - techniques. No ownership ever applied in that case.


Reply]
It's not about ownership, but identification.

[RonH]

The origin of basic movements came from confrontations by early man. They became refined with experience. Then, cultural and philosophical influences were added to it. Stemming from that, some styles used animals as a base of reference for more influences. Then, some were influenced by other cultures and styles in a small area and ever increasing larger areas till we have what there is today. Some preserving the more 'pure' forms, while others do hybrids.

[SaintSage]

The origin of basic movements came from confrontations by early man. They became refined with experience. Then, cultural and philosophical influences were added to it. Stemming from that, some styles used animals as a base of reference for more influences. Then, some were influenced by other cultures and styles in a small area and ever increasing larger areas till we have what there is today. Some preserving the more 'pure' forms, while others do hybrids.

"Animal" kung fu probably came from some of the Shamanic practices of the Daoists...

[Mr Punch]

If a technique is something unique to a particular style, say a punch known to have come from and is unique to Chinese Long Fist, and it finds it's way into the UFC because the fighter picked it up somewhere during his career, is that technique suddenly not Chinese Long Fist anymore?

What if it is done exactly like it is done in the form, and delivered exactly that same as it was before the Long Fist guy taught it to the Kempo guy, who taught it to our UFC fighter?

If it is suddenly not Chinese Kung Fu anymore because it is in the UFC now (Despite being STILL Identical to when it was Kung Fu), then how is it that the Muy Tai Round Kick is still Muy Tai?Because he learned it in kempo. That makes it kempo. He is not a kung fu fighter who made that punch famous (among afficianados), he is a kempo fighter who made that punch famous. The Muay Thai kick has not been appropriated by any other art since, other than the unnamed mass that is MMA, so it is still known as the Muay Thai kick.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

So you are saying because Kempo incorporated it, it has now fallen into public domain?

[Yao Sing]

If a technique is something unique to a particular style, say a punch known to have come from and is unique to Chinese Long Fist, and it finds it's way into the UFC because the fighter picked it up somewhere during his career, is that technique suddenly not Chinese Long Fist anymore?

What if it is done exactly like it is done in the form, and delivered exactly that same as it was before the Long Fist guy taught it to the Kempo guy, who taught it to our UFC fighter?

If it is suddenly not Chinese Kung Fu anymore because it is in the UFC now (Despite being STILL Identical to when it was Kung Fu), then how is it that the Muy Tai Round Kick is still Muy Tai?

I doubt there are many techniques unique to a certain style. Most can be found across the MA landscape.

Whatever style you learned it from is what you call it. If the same is found in Kung Fu I usually just say Kung Fu has the same technique but it's called such-n-such.

What bugs me is when peeps try to insist it isn't KF (MMA types have an extreme aversion to anything KF). Usually they try to find some minor difference to support their claim.

[Mr Punch]

So you are saying because Kempo incorporated it, it has now fallen into public domain?No, I'm saying that kempo incorporated so it became kempo.

Are you saying that kempo IS kung fu? Because you'd be wrong there too.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

No, over all Kempo is certainly not Kung Fu. It is it's own thing. BUT there are Kung Fu influences, especially form Parker on.

[KC Elbows]

The Muay Thai kick has not been appropriated by any other art since, other than the unnamed mass that is MMA, so it is still known as the Muay Thai kick.

This is factually incorrect. I've seen several kung fu styles that have incorporated it, the one I am most familiar with seems to have incorporated it, at latest, in the sixties, but it may have been present much longer than that. I would be highly surprised in the kick were not present in styles from the neighboring regions to Thailand, and is certainly well known in China due to the dai population there.

Naming conventions are largely pointless in this argument, if it's the same move, the only stylistic influence can be in transition, not the move itself.

[Sal Canzonieri]

The human body can only move in certain ways, which allows for certain number of effective and efficient movements.

Those that were successful in battle became obvious, as those that didn't resulted in defeat (or death).

All over the world, most of these movements have been discovered since we were cavemen, even the apes and monkeys do these same movements.

There can logically be no "unique" movements, somewhere someplace another culture discovered the same movements because their bodies allowed them to.

If another culture does the same movements as KF, then it is not KF, it is part of that culture, because they had their own discovery process behind the movement, so it has its own way of thinking behind it.

I have seen TJQ, XY, Bagua, Shaolin, etc grandmasters do applications, these were executed practically identical in every way.

Were they doing the "same" move? (essentially making them all one 'style')

Not to them, they had a different reasoning behind the movements, even though the movement was identical to another style's movement, how they got there in thinking to create and follow through in that movement was entirely different.
(not counting that some movements evolved from one style to another, that's obvious)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

(not counting that some movements evolved from one style to another, that's obvious)

Reply]
That is what I am thinking happened here. The move came from Long Fist---> to Kem/npo----> Lidell

So ultimately, he's using a Kung Fu technique in the ring with great success.

[Pork Chop]

This is factually incorrect. I've seen several kung fu styles that have incorporated it, the one I am most familiar with seems to have incorporated it, at latest, in the sixties, but it may have been present much longer than that. I would be highly surprised in the kick were not present in styles from the neighboring regions to Thailand, and is certainly well known in China due to the dai population there.

Naming conventions are largely pointless in this argument, if it's the same move, the only stylistic influence can be in transition, not the move itself.

Are you sure it's the same move though?
I mean just because you got a roundkick doesn't make it a thai kick.
been looking at clips of san da folks in china who are even working with thai trainers to develop their roundkick and most can't seem to break the habit of doing it the kung fu way. There are certain mechanics that make it muay thai; mechanics that probably break those of kung fu.

If you want to look for good techniques from kung fu that may have found their way into mma, i'd look at kick catches into throws. Some just aren't in thai.

[Pork Chop]

That is what I am thinking happened here. The move came from Long Fist---> to Kem/npo----> Lidell

So ultimately, he's using a Kung Fu technique in the ring with great success.

no offense, but that just has a very desperate vibe to it.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Just my theory. Sometimes there is a direct link like I showed above (i believe this is the case here), but other times it is just a case of "Great minds think alike"

We need to determine which is the case.

If he got it from his Kem/npo, and they got it from Long Fist, then it's really a Long Fist technique, but if it's a case of great minds think alike, and there is not a direct lineageal connection, then I would say it is not.

[lkfmdc]

Dear lord, people need to get out more and trust less the BS their instructors give them....

If you think an overhand "belongs" to a particular tradition, or that a power round kick to a particular country, you've obviously seen very little and done very little to educate yourself

guess what, when people are concerned with what WORKS (as opposed with selling a "tradition") and train live they develop the same things because the human body is built the same and certain things are effective (while others are hogwash)....

The reason you see TCMA represented so little (if at all) in MMA is because of the current mindset and culture, too worried abotu who got "the real form" and who "holds the lineage" and not enough about being able to protect your head from a power shot

[golden arhat]

Dear lord, people need to get out more and trust less the BS their instructors give them....

If you think an overhand "belongs" to a particular tradition, or that a power round kick to a particular country, you've obviously seen very little and done very little to educate yourself

guess what, when people are concerned with what WORKS (as opposed with selling a "tradition") and train live they develop the same things because the human body is built the same and certain things are effective (while others are hogwash)....

The reason you see TCMA represented so little (if at all) in MMA is because of the current mindset and culture, too worried abotu who got "the real form" and who "holds the lineage" and not enough about being able to protect your head from a power shot



FUKKIN A :)

[KC Elbows]

Are you sure it's the same move though?
I mean just because you got a roundkick doesn't make it a thai kick.
been looking at clips of san da folks in china who are even working with thai trainers to develop their roundkick and most can't seem to break the habit of doing it the kung fu way. There are certain mechanics that make it muay thai; mechanics that probably break those of kung fu.

If you want to look for good techniques from kung fu that may have found their way into mma, i'd look at kick catches into throws. Some just aren't in thai.

You are correct, sanda fighters favor the kung fu roundkick.

Nonetheless, I have seen styles that focus heavily on the same combination of hip movement and leg placement that gives the muay thai kick its power. I've been under the assumption that this might have been from contact with the dai in those regions, but I have never checked it out.

Additionally, I'm not looking for techniques that made their way into mma on this thread, I was merely stating that your assertion was incorrect as an absolute. The boon and the bane of kung fu is simply that there is no kung fu, just a gazillion chinese styles that sometimes had substantial contact with neighboring styles. While observing what broad approaches are used in full contact fighting venues is useful, one cannot judge untested moves as worthwhile or worthless solely on their presence or absence from such venues: could we do so, by 1975 we would have adequately proven that bjj was not a productive approach to fighting due to the results of judo competitions.

The only worthwhile way to judge is to judge the success or failure of specific moves in full contact scenarios, specifically between roughly equal opponents, if one wishes to be scientific about it. Since more kung fu stylists are fighting full contact now, and since this will tend to continue because of the necessities of the business world, we should see more of this in the future, which will clear up any questions much better than historical debates between non-historians.

Fun as such debates are.

[Pork Chop]

Dear lord, people need to get out more and trust less the BS their instructors give them....

If you think an overhand "belongs" to a particular tradition, or that a power round kick to a particular country, you've obviously seen very little and done very little to educate yourself

guess what, when people are concerned with what WORKS (as opposed with selling a "tradition") and train live they develop the same things because the human body is built the same and certain things are effective (while others are hogwash)....

The reason you see TCMA represented so little (if at all) in MMA is because of the current mindset and culture, too worried abotu who got "the real form" and who "holds the lineage" and not enough about being able to protect your head from a power shot

While I agree with you on your assessment of the problems with the current trend of thought in TCMA, I disagree with the concept that there is only one "correct" method for body mechanics. You're just not going to throw punches in the exact same way in muay thai that you do in boxing. TKD guys don't throw kicks exactly like thai guys, but the noise a few guys have been making in K1 lately prove that their kicking style isn't useless. Slight variations in body mechanics and strategies are what define martial "styles", not what pretty poses they can pull off.

[KC Elbows]

I agree with pork chop here. In boxing, there's tons of examples of guys the same general size and conditioning, where one is known as a real heavy hitter and the other isn't. People like to think of it as some special intrinsic quality that guy has, call it chi if you like, since that's what that explanation boils down to, magic made him better. Odds are that he has better body mechanics, which suggests that they are not really doing the same thing, external appearances to the contrary.

[golden arhat]

actually yeah

although lkfmdc is correct we need to cut out all this crap about lineage etc

i believe that there is only one correct style and thats the one thats personal to you

use what works
but more importantly
use what works for you

[lkfmdc]

I disagree with the concept that there is only one "correct" method for body mechanics. You're just not going to throw punches in the exact same way in muay thai that you do in boxing. TKD guys don't throw kicks exactly like thai guys,



Western boxing: no wrestling, no knees, no kicks, no low kicks, no sweeps - under these conditions technique will develp as it has (and must be fundamentally altered for other conditions)

TKD: no wrestling, no knees, no low kicks, no punching, no catching kicks - under these conditins technique will develop as it has (and must be fundamentally altered for other conditions)

Technique in Muay Thai and San da is remarkably similar, because the conditions (restrictions or lack thereof) are similar - the wrestling element making the difference - when Muay Thai is modified for MMA, it comes closer to San Da because of the wrestling aspect

I am gonna shock a lot here, but in China not everyone's kung fu is good. There is plenty of crap there, plenty of it has filtered into their san da programs as well. But if you watched the guys who did well against the Muay Thai fighters, especially the ones who BEAT THEM, wow, you saw similar body mechanics, what a shock :rolleyes:

[Mas Judt]

It has become time to come clean.

Where do techniques come from?

Well the 'Martial Arts Master's Secret Technique Club"

For a nominal fee, those of of us in the know receive a monthly newsletter revealing the newest developments in ancient techniques.

But it's a secret, don't tell anyone....

[lkfmdc]

It has become time to come clean.

Where do techniques come from?

Well the 'Martial Arts Master's Secret Technique Club"

For a nominal fee, those of of us in the know receive a monthly newsletter revealing the newest developments in ancient techniques.

But it's a secret, don't tell anyone....

you realize, I have to take you off the mailing list now? no more newsletters, no more Friday night bar-b-q's. No more secret handshakes and no more "secret sales" at K-Mart... was it really worth it?

[KC Elbows]

The only remaining question is, does lkfmdc have the mole with the six inch long black hair coming off of it, and Mas Judt the flowing white hair and goatee, or vice versa.

Once we determine that, I finally know who killed my master, and must do the honorable thing: ambush him at the brothel.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The only remaining question is, does lkfmdc have the mole with the six inch long black hair coming off of it, and Mas Judt the flowing white hair and goatee, or vice versa.

Once we determine that, I finally know who killed my master, and must do the honorable thing: ambush him at the brothel.

amBUSH and Brothel.....:D

[KC Elbows]

amBUSH and Brothel.....:D

Weren't they British turn-of-the-century grave robbers?

[Mas Judt]

I sadly turn in my short-sleeved gold lamay suit from the super K-Mart....

[Mas Judt]

Besides, that secret handshake was.... disturbing...

[Pork Chop]

If that were true than there would be no variance of styles within a given ruleset and we both know that's not the case. There are different styles from different gyms/locations/countries in san shou, in muay thai, in judo, in shootboxing, in TKD, in K1, in K1-max, in mma, etc, etc, etc.

[Sal Canzonieri]

The joke is that just about every "great" TCMA teacher says that, at their highest level, there is no more style or technique, there is only natural movement, your body and mind work as one unit and give out the most effective and efficient movement that is necessary at the time.

Every truly great TCMA master that has ever been has said this and evolved (by refining what, how, and why he does something) to this level and practiced it.

Some have said become so natural with your movements that you leave behind your style and your teachers to become your true self.

[Mas Judt]

or your unconscious self, depending on who your teachers were...

[lkfmdc]

If that were true than there would be no variance of styles within a given ruleset and we both know that's not the case. There are different styles from different gyms/locations/countries in san shou, in muay thai, in judo, in shootboxing, in TKD, in K1, in K1-max, in mma, etc, etc, etc.

no offense, but are you dense :confused:

variations is one thing, but basics and mechanics is another thing

in all contact styles you don't see snappy, flippy kicks... you don't see the snap back fist, etc....

power comes from certain defined, well defined, mechanics... not everyone is a kicker or puncher, or wrestler, but whatever techniques they are using, if they are are effective, will be from a certain pool

[Pork Chop]

c'mon, keep it civil.

I'm talking how some guys turn over their hip on a head kick where other guys don't. Very different power mechanics.
Some guys put a lot of hip, some guys' kicks fold at the hip.
Some guys use some knee flexion, other guys don't.
Some guys use a lot of rotation on the ball of the planted foot, other guys don't.
And yah, i've seen a snappy roundhouse break a guy's nose in WKA amateur nationals.

Guys get called for backfisting (jab hitting with the back of the glove) in amateur boxing all the time- i've seen it every event I've been to. Ali was pretty infamous for palming, backfisting, and dirty tactics in the clinch. I was just watching Holmes Witherspoon from 1983 and Holmes is using a lot of backfists.

[diego]

(not counting that some movements evolved from one style to another, that's obvious)

Reply]
That is what I am thinking happened here. The move came from Long Fist---> to Kem/npo----> Lidell

So ultimately, he's using a Kung Fu technique in the ring with great success.

i thought liddell did kajukenbo, the kenpo in there borrows from choy li fut i beleive...never heard about long fist influence??

[diego]

You are correct, sanda fighters favor the kung fu roundkick.

Nonetheless, I have seen styles that focus heavily on the same combination of hip movement and leg placement that gives the muay thai kick its power. I've been under the assumption that this might have been from contact with the dai in those regions, but I have never checked it out.

Additionally, I'm not looking for techniques that made their way into mma on this thread, I was merely stating that your assertion was incorrect as an absolute. The boon and the bane of kung fu is simply that there is no kung fu, just a gazillion chinese styles that sometimes had substantial contact with neighboring styles. While observing what broad approaches are used in full contact fighting venues is useful, one cannot judge untested moves as worthwhile or worthless solely on their presence or absence from such venues: could we do so, by 1975 we would have adequately proven that bjj was not a productive approach to fighting due to the results of judo competitions.

The only worthwhile way to judge is to judge the success or failure of specific moves in full contact scenarios, specifically between roughly equal opponents, if one wishes to be scientific about it. Since more kung fu stylists are fighting full contact now, and since this will tend to continue because of the necessities of the business world, we should see more of this in the future, which will clear up any questions much better than historical debates between non-historians.

Fun as such debates are.
sounds like you've been drinking Coffee flavored Coffee:D

[KC Elbows]

sounds like you've been drinking Coffee flavored Coffee:D

Good as the stuff is plain, I keep hoping someone will be able to put it in drink form.

[Mr Punch]

This is factually incorrect. I've seen several kung fu styles that have incorporated it, the one I am most familiar with seems to have incorporated it, at latest, in the sixties, but it may have been present much longer than that. I would be highly surprised in the kick were not present in styles from the neighboring regions to Thailand, and is certainly well known in China due to the dai population there.fair enough, but in this argument that's irrelevant. It's still called the Muay Thai (roundhouse) kick.

Naming conventions are largely pointless in this argument, if it's the same move, the only stylistic influence can be in transition, not the move itself.Naming conventions are not pointless if it's literally the defining convention.

Liddell is using a kempo punch: that's what he learnt, through a kempo teacher (who'd never learned kung fu) and that's what he would call it. In that case the naming convention defines its origin.

It is not a kung fu punch. The base and I daresay the energy transmission are different.

[Mr Punch]

(not counting that some movements evolved from one style to another, that's obvious)

Reply]
That is what I am thinking happened here. The move came from Long Fist---> to Kem/npo----> Lidell

So ultimately, he's using a Kung Fu technique in the ring with great success.He is not using a kung fu technique in the ring with great success. He is using a kempo technique in the ring with great success.

(Especially relating to the fact that Ross is correct, and he's in fact using a Chuck Liddell good body mechanics technique in the ring and no line has that specifically, you certainly can't claim it as kung fu.)

[couch]

The joke is that just about every "great" TCMA teacher says that, at their highest level, there is no more style or technique, there is only natural movement, your body and mind work as one unit and give out the most effective and efficient movement that is necessary at the time.

Every truly great TCMA master that has ever been has said this and evolved (by refining what, how, and why he does something) to this level and practiced it.

Some have said become so natural with your movements that you leave behind your style and your teachers to become your true self.

To chime in:

I agree with this to a certain extent. What happens if you take someone who doesn't know how to fight - as an instructor - you have to show them a path of SOME sort. Then the rest is up to them to take it to THEIR level and make it theirs.

So I give someone Wing Chun or I give them BJJ or whatever - then it's up to them to make that MA work - for themselves to the best of their ability.

So then the technique dissolves and just fighting ensues.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[Sal Canzonieri]

To chime in:

I agree with this to a certain extent. What happens if you take someone who doesn't know how to fight - as an instructor - you have to show them a path of SOME sort. Then the rest is up to them to take it to THEIR level and make it theirs.

So I give someone Wing Chun or I give them BJJ or whatever - then it's up to them to make that MA work - for themselves to the best of their ability.

So then the technique dissolves and just fighting ensues.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

Very much agreed, that is THE PROCESS of becoming a master of an art (even plumbing, medicine, oil painting, etc) in a nutshell.

Hey! Are you related to my drummer Rob Sefcik?

[SPJ]

we have to acknowledge where our ideas or stuff came from.

we may derive many apps or ideas from a move.

we may also summarize many ideas in a single move/technique.

the fun part is to change, interchange between or among moves/techniques on and on.

--

:D

[Sal Canzonieri]

AND - don't forget KF was considered something for essentially KIDS to do!

People were old by the time they were 40 way back when, so people were training this stuff til about 20 years old tops,

then they moved on to other stuff,

such as internal types of martial arts, for non-military people

or

super mastery of the sword or spear for military martial artists specialists (you had to get tested for this rank).

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

AND - don't forget KF was considered something for essentially KIDS to do!

People were old by the time they were 40 way back when, so people were training this stuff til about 20 years old tops,

Reply]
Somehow I doubt that. They had all organic foods, a life style full of activity and exercise. I'd be willing to be they lived into thier late 80, or even 90s just as much as people do today. After all, they had none of the moder diseases back then. Early deaths due to violence may have been more common, but for other reasons, I doubt it.

then they moved on to other stuff,

such as internal types of martial arts, for non-military people

or

super mastery of the sword or spear for military martial artists specialists (you had to get tested for this rank).

Reply]
This I would agree with as the older you get, the better your refinement would become.

[Sal Canzonieri]

AND - don't forget KF was considered something for essentially KIDS to do!

People were old by the time they were 40 way back when, so people were training this stuff til about 20 years old tops,

Reply]
Somehow I doubt that. They had all organic foods, a life style full of activity and exercise. I'd be willing to be they lived into thier late 80, or even 90s just as much as people do today. After all, they had none of the moder diseases back then. Early deaths due to violence may have been more common, but for other reasons, I doubt it.

then they moved on to other stuff,

such as internal types of martial arts, for non-military people

or

super mastery of the sword or spear for military martial artists specialists (you had to get tested for this rank).

Reply]
This I would agree with as the older you get, the better your refinement would become.

Now, why would I say it if I hadn't done the research and it wasn't a well known fact, here, a quote from the National Library of Medicine:

"From the Song to the Ching dynasties, the age of marriage was set at 16 for men and 14 for women. In the ancient times, the population of China was around 60-70 million before the Ching dynasty. Generally speaking, the population size was small. Early marriage was necessary and feasible. Even though fertility in ancient times was high, mortality has high also. Life expectancy ranged form 22 to 35."

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

That just does not even make sense to me. Maybe if you averaged the death rates across the board, but you would still have plenty people living to thier 90's and beyond.

Genetically we are no different than our caveman ancestors. We live that long all the time now, it's just people don't die in wars and violence as much.

If you look at the primitive hunter gatherer tribes that still exist today, there are plenty of people who live into really old age....often with few if any health problems, especially not the ones seen so commonly in modern man.

I saw a special on the Zowie tribe once, where one of the elders, in his 70's could still scamper up trees like a monkey, and was literally laughing at the 20 something research scientists that needed mountain climbing & ratcheting gear and 20 minutes to do what took him seconds. He'd never seen a modern doctor, or modern society prior to this ever.


How many modern masters in rural China (Who are living no different than they did 1000 years ago) live well into thier old age, and teach almost till the day they die? You always hear about that, don;t you?

Now, I know I did more of an informal study, more out of my own curiosity, but if primitive tribes today are doing it, with no access to modern medical treatment, and modern man is spending thier final years sick and in nursing homes, or dying of all sorts of modern illnesses that the primitives don't seem to be afflicted by, then why would the Chinese a few thousand years ago be any different?


I normally differ to your opinions becasue you are much more knowledgeable and researched that I am, but in this case the claim that people died so young across the board just does not make any logical sense. Especially when you see so many in rural China and tribes of the amazons that ares till primitive hunter gatherers, who live pretty much the same today, as then, yet are not all dead at 40....in fact few of them are dead at 40.

[Sal Canzonieri]

The life expectancy in Ancient Rome was around 35-40 as well.
Many young men's fathers had already died by their teen years.

So was the life expectancy during George Washington's times.

Ancient China had many reasons people were dying early.
Sure there was the main bulk that lived between 20 and 40, but after 40 people died early because Ancient China has famines, floods, an a huge amount of war dead - have you ever seen the incredible statistics about how many millions and millions died due to wars and local battles before the Ming dynasty!
Plus all the women dying in child birth, plus disease, etc. Half of all children were dead during their pre-teen years. 1 out of 6 died at birth.

Mostly because people were weak from not enough caloric intake.

Hearing about the occasional 80 year old is not the common man, those people were often unstressed government workers or hermits or qi gong people.
The exception rather than the rule.

KF was for kids, all my teachers have told me this and all the history I ready has shown me this.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Ok.



..........

[golden arhat]

The life expectancy in Ancient Rome was around 35-40 as well.
Many young men's fathers had already died by their teen years.

So was the life expectancy during George Washington's times.

Ancient China had many reasons people were dying early.
Sure there was the main bulk that lived between 20 and 40, but after 40 people died early because Ancient China has famines, floods, an a huge amount of war dead - have you ever seen the incredible statistics about how many millions and millions died due to wars and local battles before the Ming dynasty!
Plus all the women dying in child birth, plus disease, etc. Half of all children were dead during their pre-teen years. 1 out of 6 died at birth.

Mostly because people were weak from not enough caloric intake.

Hearing about the occasional 80 year old is not the common man, those people were often unstressed government workers or hermits or qi gong people.
The exception rather than the rule.

KF was for kids, all my teachers have told me this and all the history I ready has shown me this.



lol showed him

[lkfmdc]

The life expectancy in Ancient Rome was around 35-40 as well.
Many young men's fathers had already died by their teen years.

So was the life expectancy during George Washington's times.


Sal, no offensve. but that is completely FALSE

Please, read some more American history... I read a lot of it doing my PHD in history at the City University. In INDUSTTRIALIZED Britain the average age was around 50. In the colonies (later "America") the avereage age was 68.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

What about pre industrial times?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal, no offensve. but that is completely FALSE

Please, read some more American history... I read a lot of it doing my PHD in history at the City University. In INDUSTTRIALIZED Britain the average age was around 50. In the colonies (later "America") the avereage age was 68.

Well the point was ancient China, or ancient anywhere, not Industrialized places, that's comparing apples and oranges. The exception was 80 year olds. Living more than 70 years was regarded as rare in ancient China.
Life Expectancy at Birth is one thing, and average Life Span expectancy is another.

While it is true that infant mortality drags down the average life span and that there were always people then who lived as long as the longest-lived people today. But those facts shouldn't disguise the point that an adult was still much more likely to die prematurely back then.

Industrialized UK/US and so on being 50 is still low, it's not their 80s. According to statistics in developed countries such as Britain, the United States and France, it took 100 years for their life expectancy to rise from 41 to 64.6, averaging a growth of 2.36 years for every decade. U.S. life expectancy at birth was about 47 years in 1900. According to Fogel’s “Life Expectancy At Birth in Seven Nations, 1725-2100,” Americans had an interpolated life expectancy in 1775 of 53.5 years. Citizens of “England or UK” had an interpolated life expectancy in 1775 of 36.5 years.

Anything I have read about ancient Roman life expectancy at birth says: Romans had a approximate life expectancy of 22 to 25 years.
Roman life expectancy: http://www.utexas.edu/depts/classics/documents/Life.html

Ancient Egypt: http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/people/index.html

Ancient Greece life expectancy at birth was 22 years.

[lkfmdc]

Sal, no offense, really, but learn this phrase

"there are lies, Da mn lies, and there are statistics"....

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal, no offense, really, but learn this phrase

"there are lies, Da mn lies, and there are statistics"....

Oh brother, you can't win and you come up with that.
Forget it, let's skip this topic.

The point is in Ancient China it was rare to reach old age.
You were married off in your late teens.

[lkfmdc]

Oh brother, you can't win and you come up with that.
Forget it, let's skip this topic.



Wow Sal, I guess you just can't admit you were wrong? :rolleyes:

Here is your exact quote

The life expectancy in Ancient Rome was around 35-40 as well.
Many young men's fathers had already died by their teen years.

So was the life expectancy during George Washington's times.



No, I didn't change a single word. Now you're citing a study saying that the average age was 53.

53 doesn't fall between "35-40" does it :rolleyes:

I know you fashion yourself an amateur historian

The difference is, I was a PROFESSIONAL HISTORIAN

But you're right, let's just skip it :rolleyes:

[bodhitree]

I want to see one of you guys come up with a source for your numbers. That'd be sweet.

[lkfmdc]

An easily available source is Good Wood, who examined county records in Viginia over a 100 year period, demonstating a remarkable change in mortaility rates from early colonization to pre revolutionary period.

The counter argument was the lack of statistical material regarding the poor and African American slaves (ie the marginalized)

The synthesis argument rightly notes that pure mathematics give you a skewed perception. The poor and slaves died much earlier than middle class and upper class

Similarly, any statistical survery from 1775 could fail to account for mortality during the war periods

[sanjuro_ronin]

I am confused...

First:
The life expectancy in Ancient Rome was around 35-40 as well.


Then:

Anything I have read about ancient Roman life expectancy at birth says: Romans had a approximate life expectancy of 22 to 25 years.


So...which one is it?


And considering the centuries that ancient rome span, which one does that refer to ?

[Sal Canzonieri]

I am confused...

First:


Then:



So...which one is it?


And considering the centuries that ancient rome span, which one does that refer to ?

Life expectancy at birth vs average life span expectancy, to be more accurate.


Regardless, I was talking about Ancient China, and gave some similar situations in other ancient cultures.

And, obviously, world over, in pre-modern times people generally were not expected to live too long after 40.
Those did that was the exception, and hence got the most "press".

You can't say that is not true.

That's my only point.

I corrected myself about colonial times life expectancy rate, I though that was obvious, regardless, it has no bearing on ancient China. Bringing up other time periods in UK/US (colonial/industrial/ etc) is not relevant to ancient China and other ancient places (rome, eqypt, greece, etc).

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ah, gottcha.

What was the point of this sidetracking anyways ?

[lkfmdc]

Bringing up other time periods in UK/US (colonial/industrial/ etc) is not relevant to ancient China and other ancient places (rome, eqypt, greece, etc).



Then why did you bring it up?



Regardless, I was talking about Ancient China, and gave some similar situations in other ancient cultures.



Fine, now define "Ancient China" for us......

[Pork Chop]

Then why did you bring it up?



Fine, now define "Ancient China" for us......

man you're itchin for a fight. heheh :D:p

[Lucas]

i know in the early 1900's people still died from diahrea in america......

[Lucas]

http://www.historyforkids.org/learn/people/lifeexpectancy.htm

this states that rough life expectancy in ancient rome was 35.

30-40 is bout right then. on average. they look at tombstones to find this out i guess. sounds pretty logical to me.

i would assume that this would be roughly the same for any culture, as disease, famine, and such wont vary too much.

humans are humans.

[Lucas]

i would range ancient china, speaking from terms of life expectancy, from basically the dawn of the civilization to possibly the industrial revolution (though even at that point in time life expectancies were still low, due to coal mining, and other various activities involved in the industries) but more likely it would be linked to the medical field. 1800-1900's

[Mas Judt]

Coach Ross, you don't understand. In ancient China life expectancy was 35-40 years. But they ate dog. And since you are what you eat, it was 35-40 DOG years. 35-40 x = 245-280 years. Secrets of the taoist sages revealed.

You may be a 'professional historian', but I'm in marketing! ;)

[lkfmdc]

Martial arts people are notorious for passing on old wives tales as history and fact....

I'm curous what "Ancient China" means because the martial arts we do today all have foundations in the past 100 years or less, Digging up (pun completely intended) stuff from the Yuan Dynasty or before is meaningless.... heck , even from the MING.....

[Sal Canzonieri]

i would range ancient china, speaking from terms of life expectancy, from basically the dawn of the civilization to possibly the industrial revolution (though even at that point in time life expectancies were still low, due to coal mining, and other various activities involved in the industries) but more likely it would be linked to the medical field. 1800-1900's

Yeah, pre-1800s is what I would consider ancient China, if you are more strict then pre-Ming Dynasty.

Ancient China is relevant, Mr. Ross, because RD was speaking of Sung Dynasty martial arts (Tai Tzu, Hong quan, etc).

Long Fist types of CMA was pretty much for people under 25 up to the end of the Qing Dynasty (with a few exceptions). People generally moved on to either sword or spear play or an internal CMA of some type after that point.

Soldiers also weren't old, they were under 20 most of the time. So, "military hand to hand combat" was for kids too.

[lkfmdc]

Yeah, pre-1800s is what I would consider ancient China



well, if YOU consider that "ancient China" :rolleyes:




Ancient China is relevant, Mr. Ross, because RD was speaking of Sung Dynasty martial arts (Tai Tzu, Hong quan, etc).



If you think that any martial art is unchanged since the Sung Dynasty then I'd like to discuss with you the purchase, at a great rate!, of a large bridge right here in Brooklyn
:rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

Long Fist types of CMA was pretty much for people under 25 up to the end of the Qing Dynasty (with a few exceptions). People generally moved on to either sword or spear play or an internal CMA of some type after that point.



so, according you you, they did long fist up to age 25, then started doing sword, spear and internal for the last 5 to 10 years of their short, dismall, brutish life

[Pork Chop]

so, according you you, they did long fist up to age 25, then started doing sword, spear and internal for the last 5 to 10 years of their short, dismall, brutish life

LMFAO
I'm trying to figure out if i want to add that to my signature or not...

[Mr Punch]

While this part of the thread is interesting, now for something completely different.

The Larch.

And can I just take it that these two excellent posts on the subject before how long Gluteus Maximus lived kicked in way back when we were discussing whether old Gluteus had used a Graeco-Roman throw or if it in fact came from Turkish oil wrestling are the definitive answer? You know, since nobody responded to them, and I'm feeling hungry for attention... :rolleyes:

fair enough, but in this argument that's irrelevant. It's still called the Muay Thai (roundhouse) kick.

Naming conventions are not pointless if it's literally the defining convention.

Liddell is using a kempo punch: that's what he learnt, through a kempo teacher (who'd never learned kung fu) and that's what he would call it. In that case the naming convention defines its origin.

It is not a kung fu punch. The base and I daresay the energy transmission are different.

He is not using a kung fu technique in the ring with great success. He is using a kempo technique in the ring with great success.

(Especially relating to the fact that Ross is correct, and he's in fact using a Chuck Liddell good body mechanics technique in the ring and no line has that specifically, you certainly can't claim it as kung fu.)

[Mr Punch]

well, if YOU consider that "ancient China" :rolleyes:
... then fossils like you come from Ancient America, right Dave?

:p :D

[lkfmdc]

... then fossils like you come from Ancient America, right Dave?

:p :D

paleo lkficicus rex