Bruce vs. Won Jack Man

[PHILBERT]

Ok, first off, I don't give a flip who won or who lost this fight. Or if I spelled the name right. All I want to know is if anyone knows where I can find the story of there battle? I heard that in the book by Linda Lee she describes it, but I couldn't find anything in the book (I flipped through it a few times and there is no index). If you know the page/chapter or an online source, please tell. Like I said, I don't care if Bruce won or Won Jack won. I just wanted to read the story of the fight and history of Won Jack Man. Thanks.

PHILBERT

[wufupaul]

Just click on the search button on the top of the screen, there have been tons of posts showing both sides.

"Who is your daddy, and what does he do?"-Arnold Schwarzenegger

[DragonzRage]

Enjoy!

"By reports of onlookers, the fight was anything but smooth, fast, or efficient. After a scrappy exchange Wong turned to run and his entourage tried to step in, but they were intercepted by James Lee. Bruce went after Wong, punching him on the back of the head, but was unable to land a finishing shot.
As Bruce later told Dan Inosanto,
'I chased him and, like a fool kept punching his head and back; my fists were already swelling from his hard head. Then I did something I'd never done before: I just put my arm round his neck and knocked him on his ass. I kept whacking him as he lay on the floor-until he gave up. I was so tired I could hardly punch him!'
Linda found Bruce cooling off on the back porch, looking despondent and anything but satisfied with his victory. Bruce was deeply annoyed that what should have taken a few seconds had taken over three minutes, keaving him winded and facing the fact that he was in less than optimum condition. In public, Bruce admitted to no faults, but in private he was mercilessly self critical."

[Wongsifu]

dragon raze congrats on starting the flame war lol
phil dont listen it didnt happen like that linda lee even admitted in he later interview that bruce looked to be losing the fight

I AM THE OFFICIAL KUNG FU TROLL FROM NOW UNTIL I GET BANNED AHAHAHAHHA...MWAHAHAHAHAH.HEHEHEHE <insert evil laugh here>

[DragonzRage]

Wong"sifu",

I never said that this is definitely the way it happened. I wasn't there so I don't know (and I don't care either). Here is his original question since you seem to have A.D.D.-

"All I want to know is if anyone knows where I can find the story of there battle? I heard that in the book by Linda Lee she describes it, but I couldn't find anything in the book (I flipped through it a few times and there is no index). If you know the page/chapter or an online source, please tell."

So I just thought I'd be a friendly fellow forum member and quote an account of the fight for him. So how is that starting a flame war? I don't know if that is the way it really happened. My question is how the hell do you know it wasn't?? Were you there?

Oh, and can you give me an actual cited source I could look at to see where Linda Lee EVER recanted her version of the story and was quoted as saying that Bruce was actually losing the fight? Stop making crap up! I've read Wong's account of the fight on some webpage awhile ago (I don't remember which page it was or I would've included it in my last post). But in my personal opinion, some of what Wong said sounds like BS. For one thing, he said that he refused to use his devastating kicks and certain other tactics because he didn't want to kill Bruce. LOL, gimme a friggin' break!

[NorthernShaolin]

Dragonzraze,

So one sided...open your mind. To know the truth, go visit Sifu Wong Jack in San Francisco and then decide for yourself. Reading stuff by a family member is always open to opinions and slanted to one side.

Many have visited him and walk away knowing the truth without discussing the fight. Try it and maybe you learn something new before you open your mouth and start flaming others.

[DragonzRage]

NorthernShaolin,
When did I ever flame anyone? All I did was quote one account of the fight. I don't know what really happened and I don't care. But I have certain opinions about it based on my own logic and everything I've heard (not from being "one-sided") and I have a very open mind.

"To know the truth, go visit Sifu Wong Jack in San Francisco..."

"Many have visited him and walk away knowing the truth without discussing the fight"

No offense, but listen to yourself...you seem to sound pretty one-sided to me. So I guess you're saying that considering Linda Lee's account of what happened is unreliable BUT visit Sifu Wong and then you'll know the truth?? Buddy, you and I both don't know the truth and I don't care what you think about Wong Jack Man or Bruce Lee...unless you were there you cannot say what was true and what wasn't.

Some of the other claims Wong's side has made are that the fight actually lasted 20-25 minutes and that the fight was stopped not because there was any real winner but because one of them or both of them were fatigued. Also that it was not an issue about teaching Americans but simply a case of Wong stepping up to defend traditional kung fu after hearing Bruce talk trash about it. All this seems quite plausible to me and maybe it is true. But when Wong starts implying that he could've killed or put Lee down hard any minute if he wanted to (but chose not to), that's when I start smelling something funny. Not that I really care, but from everything I've heard, here is what I personally believe about that fight:
1) I don't know if Bruce Lee won or not
2) Both Linda Lee and Wong Jack Man have not told the whole truth
3) It was a badly fought, sloppy fight and did more to reveal a lack of sufficient skill in both fighters than it did to decide who was better

As for Wong himself, I have no bias towards him in any way. I know that he has a good reputation, although I don't think he's done a lot to indicate how good he really is as a fighter. However, I do respect the fact that several of his students have been good san shou fighters and that they've established a good fighting team in the san shou circuit. This is all my opinion and I'm sticking to it. If you think its a flame, I think you're being overly sensitive to kung fu criticism.

[apoweyn]

This is idiotic. DragonzRage provided relevant printed information, without making any claims to its accuracy or to his personal stance on the issue. He just provided the information, even being good enough to cite the source.

For crying out loud, stop trying to accuse him of something.


Stuart B.

[rogue]

As Bruce later told Dan Inosanto,
'I chased him and, like a fool kept punching his head and back; my fists were already swelling from his hard head. Then I did something I'd never done before: I just put my arm round his neck and knocked him on his ass. I kept whacking him as he lay on the floor-until he gave up. I was so tired I could hardly punch him!'

Would it be safe to say that BL knew next to nothing about WC?


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

http://rongos.com/funny****/Image15.jpg

[PHILBERT]

Thank you wufupaul
Thank you DragonzRage
Thank you Apoweyn

You guys, from what I could tell, have actually read my post originally. I clearly stated I did not give a **** who won or lost the fight. I could care less.


I just wanted to know the story, and DragonzRage actually told me from the book. I actually in my post asked where it was in the book and he was kind enough, very kind, to post the exerpt from the book.

I thank wufupaul for telling me to search for it, I did and found alot of useful information to past flames.

I thank Apoweyn for defending DragonzRage because of how he posted the book's words and cited it.

PHILBERT

[DragonzRage]

EXACTLY, Apoweyn! Thank you. I don't blame people for believing in their styles and the teachers who they respect, but some just get too overzealous and sensitive about these issues.

Philbert,
No problem buddy. I'm sometimes reluctant to post anything about this topic, or anything Bruce related because as you can see, it causes a certain amount of pointless controversy. But I'm glad as long as you got something out of it.

[apoweyn]

No worries, fellas.


Stuart B.

[azwingchun]

I can't remeber the actual site, though I did read a little different story by Hawkins Cheung. It wasn't as glamorous for Bruce Lee as we've read or heard about. I believe it had said that their were rules where the other guy wasn't allowed to kick. It's been awhile since I read it.

[Sharky]

good point rouge. everyone listen to rouge. he is "nice".

Edd

My anus is superior™

[rogue]

Yo Sharky, is that your picture in your profile? If it is you look "nice" too. :D


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

[Sharky]

Of course it's me, honey

My anus is superior™

[soy]

my teacher (daniel carr) was a student of wong jack man. My schools website has a lot of information on it. I'm not really sure if it's biased or not, I havent read it in a long time. But it gives you a good idea of what happened.

www.lakungfu.com (http://www.lakungfu.com)

[curtis]

Jesse Glover (Bruce Lee's first student)was there at the fight.or buy his book. (bruce lee between wing chun and Jeet Kune Do.) the book is the verry best book on bruce lee Ive ever read.

dont take third hand info. even sifu Dan got his info ten years after the fact.Jesse was there! GET HIS STORY, I belive him,he has no reasion to lie,unlike others.
sincerely
C.A.G.

[PHILBERT]

Let this thread DIE!!!

Ok, I don't want anyone who was friends with just Lee or friends with just Wong Jack. Why? Well, Lee's friends will side with Lee's story. And Wong Jack's men will side with his story. You want a person who witnessed the fight, but was there just to watch and not saying "Go Bruce!" or "Go Wong Jack Man!"

PHILBERT

[curtis]

Jessie WAS THERE!
my sugestion for you is, dont call a man a lier,until you can prove it.
C.A.G.

[PlasticSquirrel]

http://www.kungfu.net/brucelee.html

i quote a few lines from the article:

"In response to Lee’s interview, Wong wrote a detailed description of the fight which concluded with an open invitation to Lee to meet him for a public bout if Lee was not satisfied with Wong’s account. Wong’s version of the fight, along with the challenge, was run as the top story on the front page of San Francisco’s Chinese language Chinese Pacific Weekly. But Bruce Lee, despite his reputation for responding with fists of fury to the slightest provocation, remained silent."

"Though William Chen’s recollections of the fight are more vague than the other two accounts, they are more in alignment with Wong’s than Lee’s. On the question of duration, for example, Chen, like Wong, remembers the fight continuing for "20 or 25 minutes." Also, he cannot recall either man being knocked down. "Certainly," he says, "Wong was not brought to the floor and pounded into a ‘state of demoralization.’""

(you would've thought that someone would remember something like that)

"So by Linda Lee’s account, her husband had suddenly found himself in a position no less heroic than of having to defend, possibly to the death, the right to teach Caucasians the ancient Chinese fighting secrets. It is a notion that Wong finds ridiculous."

"Far from attempting to keep kung fu secret and exclusive, Wong observes that his was the first school in San Francisco’s Chinatown to operate with open doors. That the other kung fu schools then in existence conducted classes behind locked doors was due more to the instructor’s fears of being challenged, say Wong, than to a refusal to teach Caucasians. Once Caucasians became interested in kung fu, it would be Wong who would train some of the best of them, including Ralston and several other leading West Coast instructors. And all of these students of Wong who currently teaches at San Francisco’s Fort Mason Center would be taught for a monthly fee amounting to a fraction of the hourly rate (in some cases $500) charged by the man who allegedly fought for the right to teach them."

"Ming Lum, who was then a San Francisco martial arts promoter, says he did not attend the fight because he was a friend of both Lee and Wong, and feared that a battle between them would end in serious injury, maybe even death. "Who," he asks, "would have stopped them?" But Lum did see Wong the very next day at the Jackson Cafe, where the young grand master earned his living as a waiter (he had, in fact, worked a full shift at the busy Chinatown restaurant the previous day before fighting Lee). And Lum says the only evidence he saw of the fight was a scratch above one eye, a scratch Wong says was inflicted when Lee went for his eyes as he extended his arm for the opening handshake."

""Some people say Bruce Lee beat up Jack Man bad," note Lum. "But if he had, the man would not have been to work the next day." By Lum’s assessment, the fact that neither man suffered serious injury in a no-holds-barred battle indicates that both were "very, very good." Both men were no doubt, very, very, good. But Wong, after the fight, felt compelled to assert, boldly and publicly, that he was the better of the two. He did so, he says, only because Lee violated their agreement to not discuss the fight."

i think we all need to re-assess linda lee's account of the fight. i did, and it seemed totally unrealistic and almost cartoonish. no chinese would ever make someone close down their school because of a match. it's all for reputation. the guys with the best reputation have the most profitable schools.

[LEGEND]

Anyone ever heard of a fight lasting 20 to 25 mins??? Were they fighting ROUNDS??? Laughable.

A

[PHILBERT]

Ok, one last question. Anyone know where I can find a photo of him? New and old? Because I don't know how to portray him in my mind (was he really buff? Kind of chunky? Scrawny? Hairy?) I just wonder now what he looks like.

PHILBERT

[PlasticSquirrel]

says in the article wong was 135 lbs, 5'10, 24 years old. must've been thin, agile, and muscular to be able to do northern shaolin. chinese people have a tendency to be pretty clean-cut, and not many of them hairy, so that's how i view him.

bruce lee was also 24, but shorter and heavier.

a picture would be nice. i don't like the way they put him in that movie, dragon: the bruce lee story. they made it look like the people in chinatown were shadowy bigots. then, of course, he is also viewed as being older, shorter, stocky. overall, evil-looking. from what i've heard about wong, he was the opposite. thinner than bruce, taller, and an honest, hard worker.

bruce, on the other hand, as is evident in his writing, was a bit on the arrogant and proud side. he was involved in gangs in hong kong, and only practiced his system for two or three years. instead of realizing that his opponent had bested him through pure skill, he took it out on his system, even though wing chun is an incredibly effective style. what can you expect when you've only learned in a school for two or three years? wong had probably trained for many, many years, as is customary in china.

-------------------
jkd is an attitude and a concept of refinement. it has been used by every past master of kungfu. if someone thought that only some techniques were effective, he would modify, add to, or delete parts of his system. by the 1900's, though, it became customary to keep the systems intact, because they weren't needed for immediate use like they used to be. my point: kung fu isn't as staunch and traditional as many people would make it out to be. what does this paragraph have to do with this thread? nothing, but i thought i would add it in, since i don't visit the jkd forum that often. ;)
-------------------

[Nutt'nhunny]

yeah and the two of them together would get clobbered by tank abbot.

[Andreas]

Lee was making a tactical mistake. He was chasing his opponent which is not common to Wing Chun men. Wong Jack Man, though never being a true threat to Lee, ran all the way back, taking away much of the effect of Lee's punches.

Lee didn't claim clear or easy victory. He won by putting down his opponent, therefore not as easy or the way he might have wanted. He would have like to win with a few punches. After that he had the feeling that he had not won the fight which he told to a friend.

Jesse Glover wasn't present at the fight. He was called by Lee after that and he told him about this story. Another thing which Lee later told to Jesse was that he visited Wong Jack Man in a chinese restaurant, because he was talking b.s. about their fight. WJM worked there as a waiter, and seeing Lee scared him so much that he overfloured his cup of tea. Lee had made his point, left the restaurant, and there was nothing to hear from WJM for a long time.

Well so much years later, I think WJM is sure that Bruce Lee and the witness James Yimm Lee won't coming back from their graves, and the story continues.

You have to know, the chinese Kung Fu community of San Francisco was terrified by Bruce- Bruce Lee wasn't all the time a nice guy, especially not when he had fakes in front of him who claimed to be better than they really were. That's what his Oakland student Howard Williams experienced while being a member of the Oakland school from 1965 to 1970. One time Lee told to his other Oakland student Leo Fong: "Why do you deal with all this lousy Gung Fu guys here? You already have the ultimate art: boxing. Add a few kicks and you're fine".

I guess you all know the chinese concept of saving face. From this point we can understand what WJM and maybe other classical Gung Fu guys are talking now about Lee.

[This message was edited by Andreas on 10-16-01 at 11:46 PM.]

[curtis]

I heared from Jessie him self,( that He was Bruce's second and he was there! and did see the hole thing!)


Who ever said Jessie wasnt there will have to talk to Jessie,he not only said he was there,(personaly to me.) he also wrote about it in his book.
BE CAREFULL MY FRIND. JESSIE IS STILL ALIVE!and just might take offence to being called a Lier.

as far as the rest of your message,preaty much gos with what ive heared.
C.A.G.

[Andreas]

I'm honored to can call Jesse Glover a friend of mine. We write to each other from time to time, and he adviced me to translate his books in german.

I recommand to read Jesse's books more carefully. He was the second and referee in the fight of Bruce Lee vs. the Karateka in Seattle's YMCA. Bruce told him about the Wong Jack Man incident after it happened. You can read this also in his books. Witness of the fight were James Yimm Lee and Linda Lee.

Andreas

[curtis]

I was going over my notes, and...I was wrong,I confused my infomation on TWO different fights.
please forgive me, Ive made a grave mistake.
C.A.G.

[Andreas]

No problem!!

Andreas

[rogue]

Good lord, get a life guys. Lee is dead, nobody knows what happened there or isn't telling. The Chinese community was afraid of Lee, even after he couldn't beat WJM?

"Americans don't have the courage to come here," Mullah Mohammed Omar, leader of the Taliban who right about now is getting jiggy with his first of 70 virgins.

“Are you guys ready? Let’s roll.” Last words of Todd Beamer heard over his mobile line right before rushing a hijacker.

[LEGEND]

The problem with the story is transparent...I don't know of any fight lasting 25 mins??? The way BRUCE and JIMMY LEE described it sounds very approachable...BRUCE had to pin WJM down to finish him. Bruce began the period of JKD from that point...blaming it on the style may have been taken out of context cause in his JKD ideal...it's more to do with the fighter than the style. So maybe wing chun as a whole didn't work for him.

A