So here is an interesting question for some of the people on this board

[Shaolinlueb]

why do you take kung fu if all you do is dog it for its unrealisticness, its inferior training methods, and "it isnt as good as BJJ".

why don't you just quit your school, cause it sounds like a bad one already if you keep on talking about how other styles are better, and just go to a fighting school and do that Gracie Competition stuff. or mma ring stuff.

more power too you. then go find your way over to www.mma.tv and enjoy that.

[WinterPalm]

Some of us have been asking this for years!

I think they want to stay and "enlighten" us. How sad though, eh? Nothing better to do than argue checkers is better than chess on a chess forum!:rolleyes:

[jet64]

Have anyone seen a realy good kungfu fighter in MMA event?

There's a lot of fake kungfu in US when they join MMA they dont represent kungfu world, they are undertrained individual claiming to be someone who knows real kungfu.

This is Kungfu Forum, bjj is not better. Go to bjj forum.

[BM2]

Gee...Just on this page are three threads started by people asking about how to fight grapplers/ stopping the shoot/name strikers that keep it standing.
If the answers scare you, don't ask scary questions:rolleyes: Paraphrased from the movie Pulp Fiction;)

[lkfmdc]

yeah, lord forbid we ever question anything, we should blindly follow whatever our teachers tell us, even when it defies common logic and actual experience

[SaintSage]

yeah, lord forbid we ever question anything, we should blindly follow whatever our teachers tell us, even when it defies common logic and actual experience

You mean sifu can't make my heart stop beating without even touching me?! He said he couldn't demonstrate because his qi was so strong my heart would literally explode. (Metaphorically of course.)

[David Jamieson]

As wars of words go, this board has fallen into a state of contrition.

mma proponents can't seem to get enough of telling kungfu people how wrong they are in everything they do which has left a lot of kungfu proponents feeling slighted and some bewildered.

Much of the argument is moot and people have a tendency to throw hypotheticals around as if they were reality.

then the harping about "how many kungfu" guys won mma tournaments come up, to which there is no answer really. There are plenty of guys in mma who have done or have drawn from the well of traditional martial arts. But apparently, it's not en vogue to admit that.

Anyway, I get your frustration Adam, so does the management as they have even made way for a forum all their own. They (they being the. mma proponents) seem to still be unable to come away from it.Probably has a lot to do with misplaced aggression or something.

Kungfu will always be kungfu despite how people want to put it into a box and look at it and feel like they have defined something as (a) or (b). THeir loss really isn't it? :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

As wars of words go, this board has fallen into a state of contrition.

mma proponents can't seem to get enough of telling kungfu people how wrong they are in everything they do which has left a lot of kungfu proponents feeling slighted and some bewildered.

Much of the argument is moot and people have a tendency to throw hypotheticals around as if they were reality.

then the harping about "how many kungfu" guys won mma tournaments come up, to which there is no answer really. There are plenty of guys in mma who have done or have drawn from the well of traditional martial arts. But apparently, it's not en vogue to admit that.

Anyway, I get your frustration Adam, so does the management as they have even made way for a forum all their own. They (they being the. mma proponents) seem to still be unable to come away from it.Probably has a lot to do with misplaced aggression or something.

Kungfu will always be kungfu despite how people want to put it into a box and look at it and feel like they have defined something as (a) or (b). THeir loss really isn't it? :)

I have out a few threads into the MMA forum, they all died a chi ridden death...

I don't view myself as a CMA or a JMA, simply a MA.
I have found and continue to find, many things of value in TMA, be them CMA, JMA, FMA or whatever.
There can be no MMA without TMA.
That said, EVERY MA is open to critique and rightly so, indeed, as MA it is our duty to question and "find out for ourselves" the validity of any and all MA claims.
Why wouldn't we? we would we simply take things at face value ?

As for TCMA, they have so much to offer people beyond merely "fighting skills", BUT, that said, this is a public and open forum, when some one rips a sheet of white paper and says its black silk, they should be prepared to have their view challenged.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Personally I think that many of the discussions, although regurgitated a hundred times over, are good simply because it keeps people asking questions and seeking truths rather that accepting something that may be false. Most of us on this board agree that there are useless techniques found in Kung Fu. In MMA, although pretty much all techniques are battle tested, may not work for certain people in certain situations. This is what it is. In a boxing match, a fighter who is 6'2" will have the advantage over a fighter 5'9", given both are equally skilled, due to the reach factor. The shorter fighter may have a great jab, but can't get it in on the taller fighter because of the reach. This is an example of techniques that work in one situation and not the other. Give MMA it's due. Give Kung Fu it's due. Both have things that work and things that don't work. To the Kung Fu people, look outside the box. Not everyone is trying to bash your art and maybe, just maybe, your Sifu isn't the God you make him/her out to be. To the MMA people, Kung Fu has techniques that may look dumb or useless to you, but the element of suprise is a great weapon in battle. There are techniques found in Kung Fu that work, are battle tested, and may suprise your opponent. There are many things on these forums I am tired of. I get tired of ignorant people spouting off garbage about styles they know nothing about. I get tired of people worshipping a style or teacher like they were the messiah. But most of all, I get tired of people being closed minded.

[bodhitree]

most of the time (like this thread) it's a tcma guy who starts this kind of thread and argues endlessly.

[xcakid]

I guess some people went into kung fu thinking it was the end all be all of all martials arts. When it did not do what they wanted it to do, they got disillusioned and took something else. When that did not work, they took something else. Then MMA came out. Since its billed as all martial arts balled into one, they took that.

What most people do not understand is the other aspects of CMA. Internal development, herbal medicine including accupressure. Another problem is the lack of instruction. The art got diluted over time. I blame the western culture for that. Everyone wants it now. "I can't beat a guy to pulp in a week, well what am I taking martial arts for then?" So I believe the old instructors diluted their teaching for ease of use. Which then got diluted further by inept instructors.

I believe it was golden arhat that posted a vid showing a class of people learning application and actually fighting with the straightsword. He seemed really suprised by it. That they did not only do forms. I was not. In every school, I have been to, we've had weapons sparring. We were taught how to block, strike and move with the weapon before we even learned the form. Once the form was learned, then we put on pad and sparred with it. NOt a knock against him, but I believe his dislike of KF and belief in MMA is that he's had some lousy KF instructors that really did not know the art itself aside from punching and kicking. They probably learned that wrong too.

How do you think these student would feel after they see other arts out there that can pummel them.
http://www.wujidomartialarts.com/video/contact_sparring.html
This school is being billed as a kung fu school.

Let's not forget KF is a rounded system. Both internal and external, both close in fighting and distance. Both weapon and open hand. Theories and phillosiphy as well as traditional medicine. The problem is there are instructors that do not teach ALL aspects of KF. They only teach a fraction of their own style. There are instructors that took out what they could not do or understand and discarded it as rubish. Further diluting the system.

The other side of the coin is people go into kung fu for the wrong reasons and get disillusioned. IF you want to bang heads kung fu is not for you in the early stage, not in any stage if you have a lousy instructor.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I used to blame the Sifus and such, for the excessive amount of BS in TMA, I don't anymore.
I blame the people that eat up that crap and say "Yummy, what a cook".

[TenTigers]

To quote Rhett Butler,
"Frankly My dear, I don't give a ****."

I've never lost any faith in Gung-Fu. Why? Because I constantly seek out better people to the point that I have met people who's skills blew my mind. Does this mean I don't study grappling? Nope. I brought Shuai Jiao people over to my school over fifteen years ago for workshops. (I've also brought in Silat grapplers, NHB fighters, BJJ guys, Greco Roman,Muay Thai, etc.) Skill is skill. Tools are tools. I'm simply adding to my toolbox.
But I am in no way throwing out my Gung-Fu. Quite the contrary. At this point, I have connected with some people who I feel are the tops in their fields in Hung-Ga, Southern Mantis,and Shuai Jiao. People with greater skill than I've ever seen, or felt. And ya know what? These people are still learning. We all get together and cross train with each other. So here it is folks, the NEW catch-phrase-TCMMA!

[sanjuro_ronin]

To quote Rhett Butler,
"Frankly My dear, I don't give a ****."

I've never lost any faith in Gung-Fu. Why? Because I constantly seek out better people to the point that I have met people who's skills blew my mind. Does this mean I don't study grappling? Nope. I brought Shuai Jiao people over to my school over fifteen years ago for workshops. (I've also brought in Silat grapplers, NHB fighters, BJJ guys, Greco Roman,Muay Thai, etc.) Skill is skill. Tools are tools. I'm simply adding to my toolbox.
But I am in no way throwing out my Gung-Fu. Quite the contrary. At this point, I have connected with some people who I feel are the tops in their fields in Hung-Ga, Southern Mantis,and Shuai Jiao. People with greater skill than I've ever seen, or felt. And ya know what? These people are still learning. We all get together and cross train with each other. So here it is folks, the NEW catch-phrase-TCMMA!

And I wonder when THIS became so rare ???

Props for you doing this bro, but ( and not critique to you) when was this so noteworthy ? when did doing this become other than common sense ?

And this applies to not just TCMA, but all TMA.

[TenTigers]

Ideally, this is the way it has always been. Only in the recent century, with the commercialization of MA did people get this clouded view. I have always been like this, but then again, I grew up training in multiple styles since day one.
So whereas it would've been the exception to the norm many years ago, it has become status quo.
MMA ain't nuthin new, simply has a new name, that's all.

[MasterKiller]

MMA ain't nuthin new, simply has a new name, that's all.

Kung Fu folks should be embacing MMA.

Kung Fu players have been *****ing for years that boxing gloves in San Shou prevent CHin Na and fist formations.

You can do pretty much anything you want in an MMA fight--lock wrists, hit with Willow Palms and Pheonix Eye fists, elbows to the head, knees to the head...etc.

It's the perfect RULE SET to practice and test your kung fu against other fighters.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Kung Fu folks should be embacing MMA.

Kung Fu players have been *****ing for years that boxing gloves in San Shou prevent CHin Na and fist formations.

You can do pretty much anything you want in an MMA fight--lock wrists, hit with Willow Palms and Pheonix Eye fists, elbows to the head, knees to the head...etc.

It's the perfect RULE SET to practice and test your kung fu against other fighters.

MK has Dim Mak'd the correct and heel hooked it into submission and finished it off with a turkish oil check !

[HOKPAIWES]

Kung Fu folks should be embacing MMA.

Kung Fu players have been *****ing for years that boxing gloves in San Shou prevent CHin Na and fist formations.

You can do pretty much anything you want in an MMA fight--lock wrists, hit with Willow Palms and Pheonix Eye fists, elbows to the head, knees to the head...etc.

It's the perfect RULE SET to practice and test your kung fu against other fighters.



Maybe it's the hot pants and spandex keeping all the KF guys out?

;)

[MasterKiller]

Maybe it's the hot pants and spandex keeping all the KF guys out?

;)

I wear board shorts.

Spandex shorts are only for wrestling with Mrs. MK.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think that as soon as more hot women get into MMA and sub-grappling, you will see many more TMA going there too.

[TenTigers]

"Kung Fu folks should be embacing MMA.

Kung Fu players have been *****ing for years that boxing gloves in San Shou prevent CHin Na and fist formations."

You don't fukin get it, do you? TCMA has ALWAYS done MMA. People who actually train real Kung-Fu are not the ones saying that they can't fight with gloves, or threaten you with ch'i strikes and dim-mak. Unfortunately, those are the ones with the loudest voices. The ones raised by Bruce Lee, Jacky Chan, David Carradine, while others were trainng in small sweaty basements, and backroom Mo-Gwoons. But since it has become mainstream, the public gets what the public wants. And then they believe their own bullsh1t.\ Real TCMA has always had striking, grappling, throwing. On their feet and on the ground.
Kung-Fu has always embraced MMA. It is you who are just discovering it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

"Kung Fu folks should be embacing MMA.

Kung Fu players have been *****ing for years that boxing gloves in San Shou prevent CHin Na and fist formations."

You don't fukin get it, do you? TCMA has ALWAYS done MMA. People who actually train real Kung-Fu are not the ones saying that they can't fight with gloves, or threaten you with ch'i strikes and dim-mak. Unfortunately, those are the ones with the loudest voices. The ones raised by Bruce Lee, Jacky Chan, David Carradine, while others were trainng in small sweaty basements, and backroom Mo-Gwoons. But since it has become mainstream, the public gets what the public wants. And then they believe their own bullsh1t.\ Real TCMA has always had striking, grappling, throwing. On their feet and on the ground.
Kung-Fu has always embraced MMA. It is you who are just discovering it.

I think that MA was reffering to the current crop of chi blasters, not you old, crusty and worn out chi blasters.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Truly, if we look at some of the past great ones you will see a variety of arts in their background, not just one.

[David Jamieson]

I fight fine with gloves, either boxing or fingerless.

My ground game is not the best, mostly because i don't spend a lot of time there and the reason for that is that there are not a lot of people that are into rolling in the place and way I train. Occasionally I get to look at it and work it though, but it's not the focus.

I do in actuality what most would see as mma, but its from the cma I've been taught and have learned. Barring forms and sil lum basics and stuff, when it comes to banging, you have to have rules just so you can both go to work tomorrow without ridiculous facial injuries getting in the way of your client relationship management.

To think that every martial artist should be an mma fighter is petty. mma is what it is, but it ain't what I gravitate towards personally. I don't do sumo either or kendo or myriad other martial arts. This is because I prefer doing what I do, which is mixed in many respects but just not falling into the box that is ufc mma and the 32 rules etc etc.

is chinese man. I like it, it's good. :)

[MasterKiller]

"Kung Fu folks should be embacing MMA.

Kung Fu players have been *****ing for years that boxing gloves in San Shou prevent CHin Na and fist formations."

You don't fukin get it, do you? TCMA has ALWAYS done MMA. People who actually train real Kung-Fu are not the ones saying that they can't fight with gloves, or threaten you with ch'i strikes and dim-mak. Unfortunately, those are the ones with the loudest voices. The ones raised by Bruce Lee, Jacky Chan, David Carradine, while others were trainng in small sweaty basements, and backroom Mo-Gwoons. But since it has become mainstream, the public gets what the public wants. And then they believe their own bullsh1t.\ Real TCMA has always had striking, grappling, throwing. On their feet and on the ground.
Kung-Fu has always embraced MMA. It is you who are just discovering it.

For some reason, all I hear is the "Peanuts" teacher...Wah Wha Wha Wah Wah Wah

[WinterPalm]

I guess some people went into kung fu thinking it was the end all be all of all martials arts. When it did not do what they wanted it to do, they got disillusioned and took something else. When that did not work, they took something else. Then MMA came out. Since its billed as all martial arts balled into one, they took that.

What most people do not understand is the other aspects of CMA. Internal development, herbal medicine including accupressure. Another problem is the lack of instruction. The art got diluted over time. I blame the western culture for that. Everyone wants it now. "I can't beat a guy to pulp in a week, well what am I taking martial arts for then?" So I believe the old instructors diluted their teaching for ease of use. Which then got diluted further by inept instructors.

I believe it was golden arhat that posted a vid showing a class of people learning application and actually fighting with the straightsword. He seemed really suprised by it. That they did not only do forms. I was not. In every school, I have been to, we've had weapons sparring. We were taught how to block, strike and move with the weapon before we even learned the form. Once the form was learned, then we put on pad and sparred with it. NOt a knock against him, but I believe his dislike of KF and belief in MMA is that he's had some lousy KF instructors that really did not know the art itself aside from punching and kicking. They probably learned that wrong too.

How do you think these student would feel after they see other arts out there that can pummel them.
http://www.wujidomartialarts.com/video/contact_sparring.html
This school is being billed as a kung fu school.

Let's not forget KF is a rounded system. Both internal and external, both close in fighting and distance. Both weapon and open hand. Theories and phillosiphy as well as traditional medicine. The problem is there are instructors that do not teach ALL aspects of KF. They only teach a fraction of their own style. There are instructors that took out what they could not do or understand and discarded it as rubish. Further diluting the system.

The other side of the coin is people go into kung fu for the wrong reasons and get disillusioned. IF you want to bang heads kung fu is not for you in the early stage, not in any stage if you have a lousy instructor.

That clip reminds me of that brazilian dance people do!

[David Jamieson]

For some reason, all I hear is the "Peanuts" teacher...Wah Wha Wha Wah Wah Wah

That's cause you have your views and you're sticking to them. Which is fine, but each of us needs to understand that we are alone in our beliefs and views and that through community we will find people who share those views and the rest will be virtually disregarded. As you do, so does everyone else. We are all different and yet, we are all the same. :p

[lkfmdc]

You don't fukin get it, do you? TCMA has ALWAYS done MMA.



In one sense, yes, real TCMA has four elements (kick, strike, throw and joint locking). Unlike some other traditions, CMA has always preached the intergration of striking with grappling

YET, we see much less of this in practice these days. There are tons of trips and throws in the hand forms, yet how often are they practiced? Are they even recognized? I know an instructor of a southern style who SWEARS there is no trips and throws in his system (when I showed him them in his own forms he sort of said "well, you COULD interpret that way" :rolleyes: )

YET, where is the fighting? Most CMA events have no form of full contact competition and those that do, the participation in regards to the forms if an amazing contradiction



People who actually train real Kung-Fu are not the ones saying that they can't fight with gloves, or threaten you with ch'i strikes and dim-mak.



Teh dim mak and Chi blast idiots aside (though there are quite a few around don't you think?), there are a lot of people who run to the "gloves excuse" STILL




while others were trainng in small sweaty basements, and backroom Mo-Gwoons.



A lot of the guys in the basements and backrooms can't fight as well as they think they can. The fact they remain "hidden" and don't test their skils compounds the problem..... Until someone doing CMA the traditional way steps up and fights "looking like kung fu", no scratch that, until a LOT , because a single person is an exception, until we see concrete proof that the old traditional road produces fighters, you have a HUGE QUESTION MARK STILL HANGING FROM THE CELING LIKE A 350 lb GORILLA SITTING ON THE LAWN CHAIR

[sanjuro_ronin]

A lot of the guys in the basements and backrooms can't fight as well as they think they can. The fact they remain "hidden" and don't test their skils compounds the problem..... Until someone doing CMA the traditional way steps up and fights "looking like kung fu", no scratch that, until a LOT , because a single person is an exception, until we see concrete proof that the old traditional road produces fighters, you have a HUGE QUESTION MARK STILL HANGING FROM THE CELING LIKE A 350 lb GORILLA SITTING ON THE LAWN CHAIR


This is a very valid point, though we must define fighters.
Then there is the competition issue, not all systems lend themselves to competition, ALTHOUGH, at this stage of MMA and Vale Tudo, that is less the case than in years past.

[Lucas]

are we talking fighters as in MMA only?

what about chinese fighting circuits?

i guess since they dont grapple on the ground its not got every element...but they are still fighting. granted not as freely in a sense...but i wouldnt call san shou champions non fighters....they are definately fighters in their own right.

and there are a LOT of san shou fighters.

thats like saying the best Muay Thai fighter in thailand is not a real fighter because hes not MMA????

wrong.


also, from what i notice there is a growing MMA trend in china, your going to tell me that in China, the MMA guys have ZERO CMA elements involved????

i also call bs

[lkfmdc]

are we talking fighters as in MMA only?

what about chinese fighting circuits?

i guess since they dont grapple on the ground its not got every element...but they are still fighting. granted not as freely in a sense...but i wouldnt call san shou champions non fighters....they are definately fighters in their own right.

and there are a LOT of san shou fighters.



As someone who has promoted San Shou/San da since 1994 (and continues to do so), NO, there are not "a LOT of san shou fighters"

There are 7 or so programs producing San Da fighters now. And when one of those programs decided to show up at a San Da/san Shou event, they dominate.

This is why perhaps we see events that the major teams don't attend seem to have some guys from the TCMA schools. They are willing to fight eachother, but not the trained fighters. I can think of five of these events off the top of my head.

Still, even at those events, they have like 400 people doign forms, and less than 30 doing san shou....



thats like saying the best Muay Thai fighter in thailand is not a real fighter because hes not MMA????



Show me ONE post, just one, where anyone said Muay Thai people are nto fighters, STRAW MAN





i also call bs



oh, definitely :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

This is a very valid point, though we must define fighters.
Then there is the competition issue, not all systems lend themselves to competition, ALTHOUGH, at this stage of MMA and Vale Tudo, that is less the case than in years past.

there was a perid of about 4 years when you could head butt, kick a downed fighter, strike the groin, pretty much do anything except gouge the eyes and bite, and there was MONEY involved. Why didn't we see a single TCMA based fighter step up, win one of those events and collect $10,000.....

[sanjuro_ronin]

there was a perid of about 4 years when you could head butt, kick a downed fighter, strike the groin, pretty much do anything except gouge the eyes and bite, and there was MONEY involved. Why didn't we see a single TCMA based fighter step up, win one of those events and collect $10,000.....

I can only speak for what I have seen and in the few Vale Tudo matches that I was involved in, in one way or another, in the mid and late 90's, they were all pretty much anything goes, they were on Indian Land and the majority run by HA, and quite a bit of cash flowed around.
The fighters were mostly Thai boxers, tough guys, and what not, the majority sport combat systems, BUT there were 2 guys that I met that were Kung fu, a WC guy and a Hung Ga guy.
That was it.
It may will be the environment didn't suit them.

[Lucas]

how many san shou / san da bouts happen a year in china?

just curious.

as to the muay thai thing. i was getting the general feeling people are comparing fighters to only being in mma venues and all other venues just arent the cuts.

probably just my reading comprehension abilities.

i still find it funny how many people will jog down to the ol name calling though.

oh and i like the capitols for the emphasis. it helped me to get more offended by that wonderful name calling there.

[Lucas]

just a question Ross, cause i know your in the know cause its your guys.

how many guys do you have that are strict sanshou fighters? again, pure curiosity.

you seem to be one of the few actively making the cross with getting people who are learning some CMA concepts, principles, techs, etc. that are getting those guys into the MMA.

of your guys that start in san shou how many decide to cross into the MMA?

of what CMA material that you teach do you drill consitantly in your MMA programs?

how many strictly MMA fighters do you have?

and how many fighters that compete in both venues?

edit:

also it seems NYC is like the hottest spot for san shou events, am i right?

why do you think this is so?

[lkfmdc]

how many guys do you have that are strict sanshou fighters? again, pure curiosity.

you seem to be one of the few actively making the cross with getting people who are learning some CMA concepts, principles, techs, etc. that are getting those guys into the MMA.



In my gym, pretty much all my guys fight everything, by that I mean San Da, Muay Thai and MMA. American kickboxing is too limiting, as is amateur boxing (and amateur boxing is it's own world and game). But San da, Muay Thai and MMA are related and intertwined.

Guys usually have a "strength", some start off doing more KB (San da or Muay Thai) fights, others start off in MMA. All eventually can do all. Ian's MMA debut is going to be a thing of beauty (or terror, depending upon your point of view)

All the San da gyms seem exactly the same. Cung Le, Scott Sheeley, Mike Altman, Rudi Ott all have guys doing stand up and jiu jitsu, doing San Da, Muay Thai and MMA

San Da people fight....



of what CMA material that you teach do you drill consitantly in your MMA programs?



We have our stand up classes and we have our BJJ classes. Everyone pretty much does both. The stand up classes are my San da program. Depending upon your views, eitehr I am a "sell out" or I am teaching CMA everyday several times a day. The principles and theories are all still there if you ask me, as are many of the techniques

[Lucas]

All the San da gyms seem exactly the same. Cung Le, Scott Sheeley, Mike Altman, Rudi Ott all have guys doing stand up and jiu jitsu, doing San Da, Muay Thai and MMA


IMO this is a really good thing. Uniformity of a sort will help everyone get on the same page.


We have our stand up classes and we have our BJJ classes. Everyone pretty much does both. The stand up classes are my San da program. Depending upon your views, eitehr I am a "sell out" or I am teaching CMA everyday several times a day. The principles and theories are all still there if you ask me, as are many of the techniques

I surely wouldnt see that as "sell out" its just how it is. some people can ***** and whine all they want. **** em! besideds records tell it all. anyone who calls you a 'sell out' should be able to produce a healthy fight record for their students.....right?

[Shaolinlueb]

yeah, lord forbid we ever question anything, we should blindly follow whatever our teachers tell us, even when it defies common logic and actual experience

i'm not talking about the mystical crap ross.
a good school should have all elements in it. stopping the shoot etc. what happens if you go to ground. take downs, throws etc.

90% of them are in it for the buck nowadays. this is my point. good kung fu schools are well rounded. most of them are just fake things that build up people's ego's by teaching the mystical family only secrets.

[Shaolinlueb]

just because i do tcma forms doesn't mean i have a tcma mind. I dont believe in any of that mystical crap and family only techniques. i could care less about it. moral traditions are good to have though.
i usually wont even bother with most of the "Chinese master's" out there because 90% of them have no experience fighting out there at all. All they have is application and theory. too many times do i see schools doing same repetitive movements and others calling it good. all i can do is laugh. there are a couple Chinese masters who know what they are talking about. I'm not gonna mark out now.

I see kung fu as the original MMA. shaolin temple embraced all these fighting styles. My sifu did judo, tae kwan do in the past. do we incorporate judo throws, take downs and stuff into our curriculum? of course, why? because it works. take what works throw out what doesn't. hasnt then always been what improving the styles over the decades has been about? maybe its because i think a lot of it is just kung fu, where people are too concerned with breaking things up ionto different styles. have i lost faith in kung fu? no. do i look down on other martial arts? no. i just think some are better for things then others. Do i like BJJ? not really, but it is really good for the ground work. do i like karate? hell no, but there are some really nasty karate fighters out there. do i like neo karate? no, but there are.... ok that martial art is bullsh*t they should go do gymnastics instead, along with what the modern wushu forms are becoming.

my point is, too many people here seem to have lost faith and can't wait to bash kung fu.

maybe its because there is so much bull**** out there. i wonder how many chinese guys learned some different styles (nothing to call them master or not the whole thing), came over here to a rural town and started out a style and have people believing it goes back many years. and people idolize this crap.

[unkokusai]

why do you take kung fu if all you do is dog it for its unrealisticness, its inferior training methods, and "it isnt as good as BJJ".

why don't you just quit your school, cause it sounds like a bad one already if you keep on talking about how other styles are better, and just go to a fighting school and do that Gracie Competition stuff. or mma ring stuff.

more power too you. then go find your way over to www.mma.tv and enjoy that.



What a whiny sack-o-crap. :rolleyes:

[WinterPalm]

The path set out in TCMA, from good instruction, ie learning combative applications from day one, is one that is very tough. You are made to think and to figure out and to train very hard on YOUR time. It is a personal involvement that many people cannot handle. Sadly, it is a form of teaching very rare nowdays. Most want to be handed everything and disregard thinking for themselves and questioning what they are taught and how to use it.

Although I think this should have stayed in the main forum, Shaolinlueb is right, why bother with a Kung Fu forum if you're better than kung fu?

It really is bizarre.

[DPL]

...Shaolinlueb is right, why bother with a Kung Fu forum if you're better than kung fu?



But that's the whole point, isn't it? If these guys think they've learned something better than the traditional kung fu that's out there, let 'em share their thoughts. If they can't do it tactfully, who cares? It's a freaking Internet forum. The beauty of the Internet is it's anonymous and allows you to be blunt without worrying about traditional social mores.

The arguments are some of the most educational bits on the forum, unless you're involved and you're trying to make a point with someone who has the reading comprehension of a pre-schooler, but that's more a communication thing than a real issue.

The truth hurts sometimes. And some of the MMA/non-kung fu folks are every bit as full of sh!t as some of the traditionalists on here. But some of them aren't and have things to offer that 'modern, traditional kung fu' has often lost sight of. I'm a forms guy and probably always will be because I enjoy not only the educational package that is a form (applications, internal, external, history/mythology, poetry, etc.), but also because it feels right. But I'm under no illusions that any one art or way of training has all the answers, just like no one religion or political party has all the answers.

I enjoy the exchange of ideas, and the blunt nature of it. Which is really sort of odd because the petty sniping used to annoy the sh!t out of me but now it's popcorn-munching entertainment. :D

[Lucas]

The arguments are some of the most educational bits on the forum


agreed.

petty name calling and insulting aside. if you just sift through a lot of the personal attacks and BS, even the people often spouting this inuslting drivel will give you choice information in the process.

you just have to be able to find the flowers amongst the weeds is all.

[TenTigers]

lkfmdc,I see your points. Here's a question: I'm sure you have come across people who do TCMA and have the skill, prowess, etc to be MMA fighters. You know the type-Guys who are just freakin good,powerful,brutal,etc -the ones where you think, "Omigod, this guy would clean up in a MMA event." Have you ever asked them why they don't? And if so, what were their responses?

[Three Harmonies]

To answer the original question (sorry for arriving late at the party) I do not train with people who do not know how to fight. Period. It is not a systematic issue, it is a personal issue. Too many people who do not know how to apply, or are too wrapped up in their ego to share their understanding of application. Either way I have no tolerance for either. I have experienced both, and wasted many, many years, and tons of money too.
I now train with people who can consistantly, constantly, overwhelmingly kick my ass and teach me how to fight better.
So that is why I train in the CMA. I like them, and I have the good fortune to have found some of the best teachers in the world (or at least this hemisphere).
Cheers
Jake :cool:

[RonH]

The path set out in TCMA, from good instruction, ie learning combative applications from day one, is one that is very tough. You are made to think and to figure out and to train very hard on YOUR time. It is a personal involvement that many people cannot handle. Sadly, it is a form of teaching very rare nowdays. Most want to be handed everything and disregard thinking for themselves and questioning what they are taught and how to use it.

Although I think this should have stayed in the main forum, Shaolinlueb is right, why bother with a Kung Fu forum if you're better than kung fu?

It really is bizarre.

Mostly from ego. Either try to screw with kung fu people to distract themselves from something they don't like about themselves or they are in search of serenity, but they feel that eventually, their antics will produce someone that can give them what they want. There might be other reasons, but this is what I've predominately seen.

[lkfmdc]

I'm a little tea pot, I have nothing useful, heck even connected to reality in any way, to contribute, but I bough David Carradine's "101 shaoling sounding fluff sayings" and I like to post them here. Have I mentioned chi blasts yet in this post?


LARP'ing at it's finest

[sunfist]

'my style is better than yours blah blah blah'

Its all just a big e-pe nis contest. Currently the trend is towards MMA, and so their e-pe nises are large and bulbous. That is not to say their training methods are unsound, simply that the quality or lack thereof of anybodies material has no bearing upon wether they will win an internet argument.

Do people really think they are going to change my training habits in a flame war? Do I truly believe I will change theirs?

Id like to think that neither of us are that stupid, and we both just enjoy arguing :p

[monji112000]

I wear board shorts.

Spandex shorts are only for wrestling with Mrs. MK.

Its a good thing when these people were the Kung Fu uniforms to events.. :D I loved watching Deluca in the Kung Fu uniform get his ---------- wuped.

MMA , Sanda, MT all these sporting events are great ways to hone and develop your fighting skill. Granted somethings can't be legal, and you may have to change a technique or two for another technique. For example NO knee kicking... but thats a small issue. NO matter how you look at it training in these type of environments (and competing) its really were every MA school should be moving. That isn't to say give up training things that aren't legal, just realize you can combine the training. Its a no brainier in my book. Look outside the box.

[lkfmdc]

For example NO knee kicking...



Most people do not realize this, but in both Muay Thai and San Da kicking the knee is LEGAL. In San da, if you fall, we have 3 seconds to kick or stomp on you. In the US, most teams know eachother and we "play nice" but it certainly has happened in international competition. The Chinese team during the worlds that were held in Malaysia (2nd worlds?) used side kick to the knee a lot. It was annoying, but not what most TMA people would think

[street_fighter]

Most people do not realize this, but in both Muay Thai and San Da kicking the knee is LEGAL. In San da, if you fall, we have 3 seconds to kick or stomp on you. In the US, most teams know eachother and we "play nice" but it certainly has happened in international competition. The Chinese team during the worlds that were held in Malaysia (2nd worlds?) used side kick to the knee a lot. It was annoying, but not what most TMA people would think

I didn't know about the stomping rule, although it makes sense now that i think about it. I've never actually seen anyone get a stomp in. 3 seconds is tight, the judge usually stops him... where can you kick?

[lkfmdc]

Someone on youtube there is a clip where the red fighter goes in for a front low sweep, he misses, and black round kicks him right in the face and KO's him... I used that clip to train my fighters NOT to fall willy nilly on the floor :D

The side kick or direct kicking to the knee thing is annoying, and most people actually find it sort of "cheap". It's more of a peck than a full blown attack, it certainly doesn't stop you, but China used it to rack up points .....

[street_fighter]

i see. i was actually refering to where you can kick the oponent when hes on the ground. i assume you cant kick the head...

[lkfmdc]

i see. i was actually refering to where you can kick the oponent when hes on the ground. i assume you cant kick the head...

when you drop for a low front sweep you ARE on teh ground

[RonH]

'my style is better than yours blah blah blah'

Its all just a big e-pe nis contest. Currently the trend is towards MMA, and so their e-pe nises are large and bulbous. That is not to say their training methods are unsound, simply that the quality or lack thereof of anybodies material has no bearing upon wether they will win an internet argument.

Do people really think they are going to change my training habits in a flame war? Do I truly believe I will change theirs?

Id like to think that neither of us are that stupid, and we both just enjoy arguing :p

Some think changing one's opinion can happen, but some take the arguing so far as to trivialize the discussion entirely.

[lkfmdc]

I'm a flower power chi blast moron who likes to quote from the TV show "kung fu" and who dresses up in women's clothing on sundays to have tea with "mir big" who is my inflatable rubber boy



TMI there dude, TMI

[monji112000]

Most people do not realize this, but in both Muay Thai and San Da kicking the knee is LEGAL. In San da, if you fall, we have 3 seconds to kick or stomp on you. In the US, most teams know eachother and we "play nice" but it certainly has happened in international competition. The Chinese team during the worlds that were held in Malaysia (2nd worlds?) used side kick to the knee a lot. It was annoying, but not what most TMA people would think

wow I didn't know that. Even in training its easy to really hurt someones knee if you REALLY kick it. I know a few people that have broken peoples leg from not being careful enough. Honestly I have a problem even in a sanda/MT fight with kicking someones knees or anything like that. I guess I am too much of a nice guy.

[SevenStar]

why do you take kung fu if all you do is dog it for its unrealisticness, its inferior training methods, and "it isnt as good as BJJ".

why don't you just quit your school, cause it sounds like a bad one already if you keep on talking about how other styles are better, and just go to a fighting school and do that Gracie Competition stuff. or mma ring stuff.

more power too you. then go find your way over to www.mma.tv and enjoy that.

I did quit my school. went to combat sport styles. have not looked back. as long as there is interesting discussion here I will stay. so there. now, why don't you go eat granola or do forms or something...

[SevenStar]

wow I didn't know that. Even in training its easy to really hurt someones knee if you REALLY kick it. I know a few people that have broken peoples leg from not being careful enough. Honestly I have a problem even in a sanda/MT fight with kicking someones knees or anything like that. I guess I am too much of a nice guy.

in the ikf, you can make contact with the side of the knee, but not the front

[cjurakpt]

The side kick or direct kicking to the knee thing is annoying, and most people actually find it sort of "cheap". It's more of a peck than a full blown attack, it certainly doesn't stop you, but China used it to rack up points .....
yet another "oh, if it were a real fight then I'd just do 'x'" myth debunked...


Some think changing one's opinion can happen, but some take the arguing so far as to trivialize the discussion entirely.


must...not...stalk; must...not...derail...thread; must...not...mention...discussion...about...chi...

:rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

I did quit my school. went to combat sport styles. have not looked back. as long as there is interesting discussion here I will stay. so there. now, why don't you go eat granola or do forms or something...

What he said.

[Merryprankster]

Was looking for a CMA school for a friend of mine. Or, more precisely, for a friend of my wife.

Saw some REALLY STUPID **** posted about grappling, and decided to correct the record.

Now, why do I stick around? I've met two great friends here that I actually keep in touch with.

Secondly, it's a public forum, *neener neener neener*

Finally, I don't actually have a problem with TCMA. I have a problem with methodology.

But, what REALLY gets my hackles up is when guys who have next to no grappling experience try to tell us "how it's done."

I don't advise people on forms or kicking because I know I'm not an expert in those things. I've talked about my experience COUNTERING certain things with grappling, but that's a little different.

This ain't special and unique stuff folks. Wrestling, Judo, Sambo - I can find more similarities than differences, but people are always looking for the distinctions over the commonalities, because they go straight to identity groupings....there's an us and an other, and its a short cognitive leap to the other being worse than the us.

[TenTigers]

I am repeating this post, because you may have missed it

"lkfmdc,I see your points. Here's a question: I'm sure you have come across people who do TCMA and have the skill, prowess, etc to be MMA fighters. You know the type-Guys who are just freakin good,powerful,brutal,etc -the ones where you think, "Omigod, this guy would clean up in a MMA event." Have you ever asked them why they don't? And if so, what were their responses?"

[Fu-Pow]

I think what MMA has to offer TCMA is a return to competition.

Competition (drills and sparring) has always been integral to learning how to fight.
When that became an OPTIONAL part of kung fu things started heading towards the toilet.

There are some kung fu guys out there that are really skilled and have really good conditioning but they need the competition factor to be able to use what they know. Competition provides feedback to know if you are training right.

On the flipside just because you "compete" doesn't necessarily make you more skilled or more conditioned than the kung fu guy next door. If you don't work on your conditioning and your skills in isolation then you will not progress.

Its a 3 sided endeavor:

Training Attributes, Practicing Skills (via Drills/Forms) and Competition

(Borrowing heavily from Scott Sonnon.)

On another note, I really like this terminology "training attributes" because 'attributes" includes internal and external attributes. I think that the MMA approach is only to train attributes like strength and cardio but there are other attributes that can be trained like sensitivity, relaxation, mental focus, breathing etc, that aren't all about strength.

FP

[MasterKiller]

I think people should actually take some MMA classes before they comment on what attributes MMA builds.

[brianK]

I think people should actually take some MMA classes before they comment on what attributes MMA builds.


What MK said. I can only speak for the BJJ side of MMA, as I still rely on CMA for my stand up, but sensitivity, relaxation, and mental focus are all trained in spades. I won't say they have breathing exercises approaching the sophistication of CMA's, but they make up for that with phenomenal cardio.

Brian

[Fu-Pow]

I think people should actually take some MMA classes before they comment on what attributes MMA builds.

I think MMA people should learn some real kung fu before they make comments about kung fu.

Six of one, half dozen of another.

FP

[lkfmdc]

I think I should learn some real kung fu before I make make comments about kung fu.

There, fixed that for you.....

It's funny how defenders of "tradition" are usually peopel who have a very limited view of what TCMA REALLLY IS.....

Hate to burst your bubble, but some of us have been around a very LONG TIME and were "inside" very deep.... I know, it's the internet and people hate to be reminded that all opinions ARE NOT THE SAME, and with teh confucianism in a bucket mindset that the TCMA zombies eat for lunch they've been brain washed into being "yes men" but think about the facts for a minute, then run back into the closet

[TenTigers]

lkfmdc...I am slowly turning into that crazy german kid....

http://youtube.com/watch?v=TTwgNhX4BSo

[WinterPalm]

lkfmdc...I am slowly turning into that crazy german kid....

http://youtube.com/watch?v=TTwgNhX4BSo

That is the greatest video ever!

You have earned my respect in mouthfuls!:D

[Pork Chop]

lkfmdc...I am slowly turning into that crazy german kid....

http://youtube.com/watch?v=TTwgNhX4BSo

:eek::o

*wonders how someone got video of him at 9 years old speaking german*

German temper is something to behold huh?
Once it gets going, it just don't stop....
Ever tell you my name in German translates to something between "headstrong" and "headbutt"?
Me n this kid.... aneurysms by age 35... if we don't end up in jail before then...

[tattooedmonk]

"Kung Fu folks should be embacing MMA.

Kung Fu players have been *****ing for years that boxing gloves in San Shou prevent CHin Na and fist formations."

You don't fukin get it, do you? TCMA has ALWAYS done MMA. People who actually train real Kung-Fu are not the ones saying that they can't fight with gloves, or threaten you with ch'i strikes and dim-mak. Unfortunately, those are the ones with the loudest voices. The ones raised by Bruce Lee, Jacky Chan, David Carradine, while others were trainng in small sweaty basements, and backroom Mo-Gwoons. But since it has become mainstream, the public gets what the public wants. And then they believe their own bullsh1t.\ Real TCMA has always had striking, grappling, throwing. On their feet and on the ground.
Kung-Fu has always embraced MMA. It is you who are just discovering it.
Kung Fu is a mixed martial art.

[MasterKiller]

Kung Fu is a mixed martial art.

No it isn't, because MMA refers to a mix of RANGES, not styles.

[Becca]

No it isn't, because MMA refers to a mix of RANGES, not styles.

This is exactly why Kung fu done right is an MMA. One style, and if that style hasn't been wimpified, a mix of ranges: High, low, ground, submissions of all types. The biggest diffrence is the good kung fu peeps don't cross train to make sure thier stuff still works on others. Doesn't meen it's not an MMA, just not an open one.

[TenTigers]

Kung-Fu has always cross-trained. Styles were created by cross-training with other styles, absorbing what each thought was the techniques they felt best suited them. This is nothing new. When you stop cross-training, when you stop seeking to develop whatever attributes you can, when you walk with blinders on,you stop evolving. The problem is that the ones with the loudest voices, the representatives of Kung-Fu, are usually the ones with the least knowledge. But they are the ones most listened to. Trust me, there are guys behind the Bamboo Curtain that are cross-trainning. This isn't New, it's Old Skool.

[TenTigers]

No it isn't, because MMA refers to a mix of RANGES, not styles.
Really? So Muay Thai,Boxing,BJJ,etc are not styles? Yes it is a mix of ranges, but they draw from other styles in order to develop these abilities. Kung-Fu does the same thing. Shuai-Jiao, Chin-Na, striking, kicking,etc. I train with a group who do all this, and we bring in others from all styles, backrounds,etc. Tools is tools.
When you stop trying to put everything in a box, you can see this.
It's not that TCMA does this or does that, it's that people do this and do that.

[MasterKiller]

This is exactly why Kung fu done right is an MMA. One style, and if that style hasn't been wimpified, a mix of ranges: High, low, ground, submissions of all types. The biggest diffrence is the good kung fu peeps don't cross train to make sure thier stuff still works on others. Doesn't meen it's not an MMA, just not an open one.

Kung Fu has never trained to fight against wrestlers or submission specialists because of the cultural context in which it was created.

Good kung fu NOW must include those elements. You can't say it's always been there because it hasn't, so the lack of outside testing is not the only problem.

[MasterKiller]

Really? So Muay Thai,Boxing,BJJ,etc are not styles?

Yes, they are styles. But you don't need anyone of them in particular. The styles you use are not the defining and mitigating factor, it's the mixed-range training that defines MMA.

Muay Thai + Boxing is not MMA.

Sambo + BJJ is not MMA.

Long Fist + Baji is not MMA.

Kung-Fu does the same thing. Shuai-Jiao, Chin-Na, striking, kicking,etc. I train with a group who do all this, and we bring in others from all styles, backrounds,etc. Tools is tools.
So which CMA style are you training to handle ground fighting?

Not Shaui-Jaio, because it prefers to stand over a downed opponent.

Not Chin-Na, because Chin-Na does not focus on transitions or positional escapes on the ground.

So what is it...?

[Becca]

Kung Fu has never trained to fight against wrestlers or submission specialists because of the cultural context in which it was created.

Good kung fu NOW must include those elements. You can't say it's always been there because it hasn't, so the lack of outside testing is not the only problem.
BS. Pure BS. Kung fu started out as a true art of war. They wared quite a bit with Japan, the home of jujitsu. Yet those who practiced and handed down kung fu never trained to fight against their worst enemies hand-to-hand fighting style?

Good kung fu does include those elements and always has. You seem to be stubornly clinging to the idea that the cr@p you have seem must be the good stuff.

[lkfmdc]

BS. Pure BS. Kung fu started out as a true art of war. They wared quite a bit with Japan, the home of Ninjitsu.



and, as we know, thanks to the internet, ninjas defeated the best kung fu had to offer, ie the Shaolin monks......

[sanjuro_ronin]

Those wacky ninjas !

[MasterKiller]

BS. Pure BS. Kung fu started out as a true art of war. They wared quite a bit with Japan, the home of jujitsu. Yet those who practiced and handed down kung fu never trained to fight against their worst enemies hand-to-hand fighting style?

Battlefield training and fighting strategically focuses on weapons. Always has.

Hand to hand training is mostly used in a military context to train aggression into it's soldiers.

Good kung fu does include those elements and always has. You seem to be stubornly clinging to the idea that the cr@p you have seem must be the good stuff.

I seriously doubt you could show me anything I haven't seen already.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Due to the nature of the battlefield at the time, TMA of the military version hat focused on H2H combat would be more grappling oriented and with small edged weapons to get at the weak spots of the armour.

kumi Uchi in the Koryu systems of Japan, later called jujutsu is an example.

[TenTigers]

Although the prefrence is to stand over the attacker, there are Shuai-Jiao teachers who teach ground grappling, but from the little I've seen, it's more like silat-not so much rolling as it is finishing and getting up.Shuai-Jiao is as varied in approach as the individual teaching it. Some are only for sport, others only for combat, some in between. We bring in people from everywhere (kodokan judo,bjj,greco-roman,shuai-jiao,silat,nhb fighters,etc) and form a sort of lab,what works aginst what,how can this be added, modified,etc.
since judo was developed from shuai-jiao, and bjj ground fighting was developed from ne-waza, don't you think there would be this in shuai-jiao as well? I will ask around. I don't have the experience. There are those who know a heckuva lot more about sj and bjj.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It pays to remember that the ground work of sport is NOT the ground work of the combat fields of times past.

The focus of ground work in the grappling arts of China and Japan would have been to finish it quickly and decisively, usually with some small edged weapon.

If one was to institute a time limit to ground work in MMA, for example 45 seconds, then it would look quite different than it does now.

[MasterKiller]

Although the prefrence is to stand over the attacker, there are Shuai-Jiao teachers who teach ground grappling, but it's more like silat-not so much rolling as it is finishing and getting up. That's pretty much the way all CMA ground fighting is configured.

Which means they did not train with the mindset of staying on the ground, or fighting against people who wanted to stay on the ground.

I will ask around.
If you have to ask, it means it's not there when you train it. Just because someone, somewhere, might teach it that way doesn't do you any good at the moment, does it?

[TenTigers]

"That's pretty much the way all CMA ground fighting is configured."

I wouldn't know. I haven't seen ALL CMA groundfighting.
I've only been exposed to a small amount, so I don't have the knowledge nor the experience to answer that question. But as I said, I will ask around.

[MasterKiller]

I've only been exposed to a small amount, so I don't have the knowledge nor the experience to answer that question.

If you've been doing kung fu for as long as you say you have, and you haven't seen it, the answer is self-evident.

All those generations of cross-training didn't put it into your system....what makes you think other CMA styles are any different?

[Becca]

and, as we know, thanks to the internet, ninjas defeated the best kung fu had to offer, ie the Shaolin monks......Nice... too bad it's obvious you changed my quote...:rolleyes:

[Iron_Eagle_76]

.[/QUOTE]
since judo was developed from shuai-jiao


How accurate is this statement, because I have heard different things from both sides on this issue. Since many believe mongolian wrestling came from Greco-Roman wrestling and Pankration. I am asking to anyone who knows, because I don't. Was it the chicken or the egg, ****it!!!

[TenTigers]

according Japanese records,Chen Yuan-Yun (587-1671) introduced Shuai-Jiao to Japan, which developed into jiu-jutsu and later Judo. There are various forms of Shuai-Jiao-Bao-Ting style, as taught by Chang Tung-Shen,Shanghai style,Nanking Style,Beijing style,Mongolian (Bo-Kei),Kuai-Jiao (fast wrestling) and others.
My own personal records don't have any information on this, as they are of Jimi Hendrix, Led Zeppellin, and Muddy Waters...

[specialed]

No it isn't, because MMA refers to a mix of RANGES, not styles.


I would say it's a competition rule-set.

You can train any style to fit the competition format, which is why you typically have so many different sport styles represented--BJJ, wrestling, boxing, Muay Thai, Shan Shou, Sambo, Judo etc....


well mr. expert, which is it? from one thread to the next you have different answers. maybe better to define mma as what you currently are nut-hugging

[MasterKiller]

well mr. expert, which is it? from one thread to the next you have different answers. maybe better to define mma as what you currently are nut-hugging

It's a competition rule set that allows for all ranges of fighting.

Anymore questions, punk?

[tattooedmonk]

No it isn't, because MMA refers to a mix of RANGES, not styles.So Kung Fu does not have mixed ranges of fighting??:rolleyes:

[tattooedmonk]

Kung-Fu has always cross-trained. Styles were created by cross-training with other styles, absorbing what each thought was the techniques they felt best suited them. This is nothing new. When you stop cross-training, when you stop seeking to develop whatever attributes you can, when you walk with blinders on,you stop evolving. The problem is that the ones with the loudest voices, the representatives of Kung-Fu, are usually the ones with the least knowledge. But they are the ones most listened to. Trust me, there are guys behind the Bamboo Curtain that are cross-trainning. This isn't New, it's Old Skool.Bingo!!!!:D

[tattooedmonk]

This is exactly why Kung fu done right is an MMA. One style, and if that style hasn't been wimpified, a mix of ranges: High, low, ground, submissions of all types. The biggest diffrence is the good kung fu peeps don't cross train to make sure thier stuff still works on others. Doesn't meen it's not an MMA, just not an open one.
Yep!!!!!:D

[TenTigers]

well,I asked around and yes, shuai-jiao does have quite extensive ground grappling, but its's seldom seen(evidently an indoor thang)but from what I hear,it's nasty as heck, and certainly not geared for sport. although I assume it can be modified, but then again, that would defeat its purpose.
It really stands to reason that a system that is based on grappling would certainly not neglect this aspect. I am sure the MMA folks would poo-poo this viewpoint, but you need to understand, not everybody is interested in bringing it to a sporting level, and are quite content in keeping it combative.

[MasterKiller]

Like I said, just because someone, somewhere, has it, doesn't do you any good right now if you need it.

[lkfmdc]

well,I asked around and yes, shuai-jiao does have quite extensive ground grappling,



Would you mind citing your SOURCE. I've trained with Jeng Hsin Ping, I am on pretty good terms with Daniel Weng. I have ALL of the Taiwan Police College materials. I also have David Lin's combat material. If it is "extensive" it must be quite hidden, because I've never seen it, nor have the above guys

[Knifefighter]

well,I asked around and yes, shuai-jiao does have quite extensive ground grappling, but its's seldom seen(evidently an indoor thang)but from what I hear,it's nasty as heck, and certainly not geared for sport. although I assume it can be modified, but then again, that would defeat its purpose.
It really stands to reason that a system that is based on grappling would certainly not neglect this aspect. I am sure the MMA folks would poo-poo this viewpoint, but you need to understand, not everybody is interested in bringing it to a sporting level, and are quite content in keeping it combative.

LOL @ "secret", "indoor",and "seldom seen". Anything that follows that method will never be worth a cr@p compared to the stuff that is out there and constantly being pressure tested and refined in open venues.

[TenTigers]

lkfmdc,I am not at liberty to say, but you probably have access to the same if not similar sources. What material? And where di you get it-referring to Taiwan Police and David Lin's?
KF,why laugh? The kali you learned was previously considered secret and indoor, as were most Martial Arts. In fact I would venture to say,everything you know now,except perhaps for western boxing, was at one time or another, secret, inddor stuff.

my kids take alot of things for granted too. They think food, clothing, comes from the store, and that money grows on trees.

[RonH]

Yes, but remember, Knifefighter has found a lot of BS in eskrima. ;)

[TenTigers]

I won't deny that, but everything is a secret until it's revealed.

[lkfmdc]

lkfmdc,I am not at liberty to say,



then you'll forgive me if I am extremely, EXTREMELY, skeptical about what you claim...



but you probably have access to the same if not similar sources.



as my previous post indicated, I would say I have access to BETTER sources, sources extremely close to Master Chang's, direct sources of what is part and what is NOT part of Shuai Jiao



What material? And where di you get it-referring to Taiwan Police and David Lin's?



If you don't know what the Taiwan Police College material is, or if you've never seen David Lin's "combat shuai jiao" material, then it is safe to say you really can't speak with any authority about what Shuai Jiao is and isn't

Suffice to say, if the greatest master in the history of Shuai Jiao didn't teach it, if his disciples didn't teach it, if it was never mentioned or covered in any of their instruction, either sport or combat, one wonders who this un-named sources who are supposed to know Shuai Jiao "found" this material?????

:rolleyes:

[Shaolin Wookie]

If you don't know what the Taiwan Police College material is, or if you've never seen David Lin's "combat shuai jiao" material, then it is safe to say you really can't speak with any authority about what Shuai Jiao is and isn't
:


I had a discussion once with a Hapkido guy (I didn't know what it was, at the time) who said he did "Combat Hapkido." I asked if he had groundwork.

He said yeah.

I asked how it worked. He said, well, we just do it standing up. But it's the same when it's on the ground, only, it's on the ground.

I watched a video of some Hapkido stuff later, and couldn't see how in the hell you could do that on the ground. It's like saying chin-na has direct ground apps.

I later saw this guy do a demo, and all the stuff looked like BJJ.

[Knifefighter]

Yes, but remember, Knifefighter has found a lot of BS in eskrima. ;)

And the B.S stuff is usually the esoteric, "hidden" stuff that is not tested in open venues. Put it in those venues and it immediately falls apart.

In my 30 years of doing full contact fighting, I have quite a bit of experience in seeing "hidden" techniques being shown up for what they are... B.S.

No style is immune to this type of thinking. I've seen the same thing in BJJ.

[Knifefighter]

I had a discussion once with a Hapkido guy (I didn't know what it was, at the time) who said he did "Combat Hapkido." I asked if he had groundwork.

He said yeah.

I asked how it worked. He said, well, we just do it standing up. But it's the same when it's on the ground, only, it's on the ground.

You can see how effective Hapkido's groundwork is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ciYtazMQE4

[monji112000]

You can see how effective Hapkido's groundwork is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ciYtazMQE4
yes this is a old video, its funny how the same clips get regurgitated over and over again year after year. Its pretty obvious the outcome of the fight, before any of the fights take place.

the only problem is the last comments in the video they don't really apply anymore. Most people try to incorporate some aspects of BJJ in their training. Most people try to address the ground at a minimum if nothing else. The comment about " Juijuistu is the only self defense system that effectively addresses ground grappling".
1) BJJ doesn't still have a competent standing game. (everyone just cross-trains) So its not a "effective self defense system alone.

2) Many other systems have been created or developed from BJJ or combined with BJJ that are just as good if not better in some ways. JMO I have watched BJJ since the first UFC, and its really amazing how much they have influenced MA as a whole. I have visited many BJJ schools. I have even decided to join one, but that doesn't make BJJ any better for self defense then any other style.

[TenTigers]

I've seen some of the Taiwan Police techniques, and David Lin's Combat Shuai-Jiao,as well as Dr. Weng, and JHP, I was simply wondering what in particular you were referring to. I also understand your skepticism.
Again Knifefighter, if something is not shown, it doesn't neccesarally mean better,worse, undefeatable,magical, or anything. It simply means it hasn't been made available. I am certainly not trying to infer any type of "superior technique' (it may be inferior technique too,)or anything like that, simply stating that it exists. or doesn't. whatever. I'm not knocking your experience, quite the contrary, I repect it, but It's a very big world out there, so it stands to reason that there might be something that you have not have seen.

[TenTigers]

as far as BJJ being the only system that addresses ground grappling, remember that it was developed from ne-waza.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4u41omoNO4U

:cool:

[Knifefighter]

as far as BJJ being the only system that addresses ground grappling, remember that it was developed from ne-waza.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4u41omoNO4U

:cool:

That's just Rorion's marketing hype. However, BJJ is the only system that prioritizes ground fighting.

[TenTigers]

point well taken

[Knifefighter]

Again Knifefighter, if something is not shown, it doesn't neccesarally mean better,worse, undefeatable,magical, or anything.

If something is not shown, it is invariably worse... precisely because it is not shown. While those few people are keeping their secret ground techniques close to the vest, there are tens of thousands of other people openly sharing, testing and constantly improving their ground work.

What do you think will have the superior ground work? The stuff that comes from a few dozen cloistered guys who may or may not be comparing with each other, or the ground work that comes as a result of tens of thousands of people constantly competing, sharing, testing and evolving thier ground techniques at the highest levels in many different venues?

[TenTigers]

hmmmm, well ya can't argue with logic. You make some excellent points,worth taking into consideration.

[Merryprankster]

Ten tigers,

No offense, but they aren't merely points worth considering. Those ARE the points. They are precisely the problem with Many arts and schools today

[sunfist]

As people learn, they move from unorthodox methods to orthodox ones, as the orthodox methods are the soundest.

Then as they advance, they move from orthodox methods to unorthodox, to get an edge on other orthodox fighters. In the 'sport' world the crazy sh!t these people make up is generally called 'innovation', in the 'traditional' world its called 'secrets'.

The purpose they both serve is to train a normally lower percentage move to the point that its high percentage, and thus use it to surprise opponents. 'Innovation' becomes a fad for a short while, and then fades into obscurity once everybody else realises they cant make it work. 'Secrets' generally get lost or forgotten within a few generations, replaced with new ones.

But then we can never fully assess the nature of a secret, what with it being secret and all. Accourse, if youre keeping something secret, no matter what it is, you cant then base an argument on it. Why would you want to anyway? The whole point of a secret is not talking about it :p

[golden arhat]

Maybe it's the hot pants and spandex keeping all the KF guys out?

;)

and the lack of silk pyjamas

[sanjuro_ronin]

hmmmm, well ya can't argue with logic. You make some excellent points,worth taking into consideration.

These are the points that have made me, in many ways, "not bother" with TCMA as they are taught by some.
The think that by guarding and hiding the "real kung fu" they are doing a service of some sort to their inner students, when nothing could be further from the truth.

The smaller the circle, the less the system will progress.
You need all types, all body types, attitude types, strategy types, you need people that will challenge what is being taught as "gospel", you need people infusing the "flavour of the month" and seeing how the system stacks up to it.

A system must progress, must evolve for the better, or it dies.

[TenTigers]

not to hijack the thread, but along those lines, too many systems have been lost due to this closed door mentality as well. I really don't understand all the secrecy. It waould stand to reason that you would want your system to live on, grow,evolve, but instead, there are Sifus who simply don't care about turning out the best students that they can, and still hold back techniques. How many times have you seen a highly skilled Sifu, and heard others say,'He's the last of his kind?"

[lkfmdc]

Most of the time, stuff that people talked about but didn't show, they didn't really know and/or couldn't really do.... seen it hundreds of times, particularling in Lion's Roar traditions, teachers waving the hope of "advanced" material in front of students' noses for YEARS but never really having it

[jet64]

For some reason, all I hear is the "Peanuts" teacher...Wah Wha Wha Wah Wah Wah

Just want to know where you are living? all you see are fake. You should visit other places where you can see real kungfu fighters who accept barefist match.

you could get KO in seconds.

[jet64]

You can see how effective Hapkido's groundwork is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ciYtazMQE4

thats because he's up against a poor striker.

no footwork at all. so its an easy win for the bjj guy.

[jet64]

you cant be proud of winning a match against a poorly skilled MAist.

[lkfmdc]

Just want to know where you are living? all you see are fake. You should visit other places where you can see real kungfu fighters who accept barefist match.

you could get KO in seconds.

let me be the first to say

Hi KKM!

:rolleyes:

[MasterKiller]

you could get KO in seconds.

They better KO me before I get the double-leg; otherwise, someone is getting an arm broken.

[TenTigers]

who is KKM?

[MasterKiller]

If you have to ask, then you are KKM.

[TenTigers]

well in that case, who is EMPEROR OF THE WORLD?
(hey, this is easier than I thought!)

[TenTigers]

sorry, I'm having trouble keeping track of all the characters in these threads.

[jet64]

They better KO me before I get the double-leg; otherwise, someone is getting an arm broken.

A real kungfu fighter have excellent fotwork. no way you can get double leg, bash your face on the way in.

[Becca]

A real kungfu fighter have excellent fotwork. no way you can get double leg, bash your face on the way in.
So a real kung fu person never makes mistakes or gets too focused on one area that they don't see something comming? Especially when it isn't something they regularly train to watch out for?

You have to remember that MK is, or at least has been a kung fu peep. He knows what to watch for and where to look to find openings in a KF guy's game. Blanket statements are all well and good, but they make too many assumptions to be truly accurate.

[MasterKiller]

A real kungfu fighter have excellent fotwork. no way you can get double leg, bash your face on the way in.

Well, if he tries to bash my face, I'll just switch to a butterfly double-twist. See, I'm tricky like that.

[jet64]

Well, if he tries to bash my face, I'll just switch to a butterfly double-twist. See, I'm tricky like that.

MK,

very few KF school teaches the real sparring from shaolin. Im lucky to be in one of those school with a master who deeply understand the fighting principles. it was past down from generation to generation. now its open to public.

ive been in MA for 28 years. made a lot of research and study on MA. i know what im saying.


Chill!

[lkfmdc]

very few KF school teaches the real sparring from shaolin.



oh, do tell..... :rolleyes:



Im lucky to be in one of those school with a master who deeply understand the fighting principles.



and that master is.........



ive been in MA for 28 years.



and considering you are probably 16 that's impressive

(I guess the person approving memberships has returned, because clearly we've got a new pile of trolls)

[jet64]

oh, do tell..... :rolleyes:



and that master is.........



and considering you are probably 16 that's impressive

(I guess the person approving memberships has returned, because clearly we've got a new pile of trolls)



your from NY? there is ZRM in NY, you try your skills there.

[lkfmdc]

your from NY? there is ZRM in NY, you try your skills there.


yeah, those guys are everywhere in NY, winning at San da, at Thai boxing, at MMA... oh, wait, no there are no ZRM fighters at all in NY, I was thinkig of the NY San Da people :rolleyes:

really, Gene, we need a higher quality of trolls or this forum isn't gonna get the ratings it so badly needs, can we import some maybe?

[bodhitree]

yeah, those guys are everywhere in NY, winning at San da, at Thai boxing, at MMA... oh, wait, no there are no ZRM fighters at all in NY, I was thinkig of the NY San Da people :rolleyes:

really, Gene, we need a higher quality of trolls or this forum isn't gonna get the ratings it so badly needs, can we import some maybe?


so, fighting lad isn't doing the trolling job eh

random place to insert martial arts mart (http://martialartsmart.net)