Top MMA stand up strikers who avoid the ground

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Ok, there has been lots of talk about avoiding the shoot, or defending against BJJ guys. Since MMA is really big now, and we finally have fighters of all persuasions, who are the TOP stand up fighters that are best at avoiding the take down, staying on thier feet and are able to win that way?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Besides the typical ones? ( Mirko, Chuck and so on...)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Yes, name them if possible, and include clips if you can.

Not all of us are super MMA fight fans to where we know all the obsessive details.

I am hoping to compile a list of good stand up fighters who are successful at avoiding the ground, and videos for everyone to study thier methods.

Maybe if we have a centralized source it will help those who are researching the subject and are looking for ideas to improve thier own anti takedown game.

If we can create a good source for that, maybe more Kung Fu guys will start entering the UFC or other MMA comps.

[MasterKiller]

Liddell and Cro Cop.

Cro Cop may have the best takedown defense in the world.

[street_fighter]

I am hoping to compile a list of good stand up fighters who are successful at avoiding the ground, and videos for everyone to study thier methods.

Maybe if we have a centralized source it will help those who are researching the subject and are looking for ideas to improve thier own anti takedown game.

If we can create a good source for that, maybe more Kung Fu guys will start entering the UFC or other MMA comps.

yeah, that sounds like a good use of your time. keep livin the dream.

[Vio]

Rampage
Allister Overeem
Chiek Kongo
Vanderlei Silva
Melvin Manhoef
Gomi

[sanjuro_ronin]

You should also get the best "take downers" so people can see what a real take down is suppose to look like.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

You should also get the best "take downers" so people can see what a real take down is suppose to look like.

Reply]
Agreed.

Anyone have clips of these guys in action, defending takedown attempts?

[bodhitree]

I'm too lazy to find the clips myself, just go to youtube and look for

Matt Hughes
Mike Van Aresdale
Karo Parisyan Judo
wrestling in MMA
Kevin Randleman
Fedor
takedowns in mma
nastulo (sp?) paulo
Yoshida
Randy Couture

[Knifefighter]

BJ Penn has one of, if not the best, single leg takedowns in MMA.

What do all of the MMA guys who "avoid" the ground have in common?

They are also good on the ground.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

What abut guys who are primarily strikers, who are good at defending the takedown and staying on thier feet? Are they all good on the ground?

[WinterPalm]

Look no further than Anderson Silva...best standup and great ground skills as well...maybe lacking a bit in the wrestling...but he is technically very sound and capable on the ground and standing up.

He is the ideal technician.

Here is a good video involving his takedown defense:

http://rapidshare.com/files/12439695...fontinelle.mpg

He also looks like Bruce Lee from Enter the Dragon both in terms of physique and shorts.:eek:

[Knifefighter]

What abut guys who are primarily strikers, who are good at defending the takedown and staying on thier feet? Are they all good on the ground?

Cro cop trains with one of the top BJJ fighters in the world and is at least a purple, if not brown belt, by now. Silva is a BJJ black belt.

All the wrestlers (Matt Hughes, Mike Van Aresdale, Kevin Randleman, Couture) have extensive ground backgrounds, as ground work plays at a big roll in all wrestling programs.

Karo Parisyan and Fedor both have Sambo backgrounds. Sambo has significant groundwork.

Pretty much all top MMA guys train hard on the ground, in addition to the other areas.

I'm pretty sure Anderson Silva is also a BJJ black belt.

[WinterPalm]

A Silva is definately a BJJ BB. The beauty of his style is that he is constantly going for the kill...whether it be strikes or submission attempts he doesn't stall and continues to bring it. That is what makes him ideal to watch.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

You guys are missing the point here.

I am looking for guys who are primarily STANDUP fighters, who are good at keeping the fight standing up by avoiding the take down.

I don't really want to discuss BJJ specialists. Yes, I know *Everyone* does BJJ on some level, but I am more interested in guys who specifically avoid the ground, and win standing up.

[Knifefighter]

You guys are missing the point here.

I am looking for guys who are primarily STANDUP fighters, who are good at keeping the fight standing up by avoiding the take down.

I don't really want to discuss BJJ specialists. Yes, I know *Everyone* does BJJ on some level, but I am more interested in guys who specifically avoid the ground, and win standing up.

Watch the IFL. They seem to have several guys who are pretty good at this, especially the blonde kid who looks like he is about 15.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Can you site any online clips of guy who are good in this area?

[bodhitree]

You guys are missing the point here.

I am looking for guys who are primarily STANDUP fighters, who are good at keeping the fight standing up by avoiding the take down.

I don't really want to discuss BJJ specialists. Yes, I know *Everyone* does BJJ on some level, but I am more interested in guys who specifically avoid the ground, and win standing up.


Having a great ground game gives them the confidence to do what they do standing up. When Chuck throws big punches he's opening himself up, but he knows he can wrestle in the clinch and get out of a bad spot on the ground.

Chuck has an NCAA wrestling background (like Cung Le).

These skills are also what gives Crocop the ability to throw his big kicks with little worries, if someone clinches him or takes him down, he can get back to where he is best.

[bodhitree]

Can you site any online clips of guy who are good in this area?

how ****ing lazy are you, look it up yourself.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Blow me you frikn wanna be loser.

[Pork Chop]

No offense, but you are bein pretty lazy....
Mirko, Cung Le, Chuck Liddel, Mo Smith, and Wanderlei Silva are enough names to search on in youtube to give you hours of footage with which to work; but you want us to do your youtube searches for you?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

So I don't have to spend hours, and hours siting through fight after fight, which fights specifically showed successful anti take down skills, with wins using Stand up skills??

[Merryprankster]

Actually RD1, you're the one missing KFs point...

The guys who are the best stand-up fighters, who are usually looking for knockouts and are good at staying on their feet, all have something in common.

They are ALSO at least solid grapplers.

[Pork Chop]

So I don't have to spend hours, and hours siting through fight after fight, which fights specifically showed successful anti take down skills, with wins using Stand up skills??

any ones that say "KO" in the description, and any fight that Crocop wins.

but MerryP's right as always. You don't get those skills in a vacuum. You should train with wrestlers to defend their shot. Not a bad idea to have a good shot yourself. Also a good idea to train with BJJ guys so you don't flip out if you find yourself on your back.

Nothing's worse than those sad kung fu demos of "defending the wrestler's takedown" where the "wrestler" is bent over at the waist and hasn't even changed level on a shot...

The environment these days is not all about bridging, body shots, limited ground work, punches with crazy hand formations, strong stances, and what kung fu traditionally likes to prepare for. You need to be able to defend a wrestler's shot, a judo guy's sei onage, a boxer's 1-2, a muay thai guy's hands & roundkick combo, and a bjj guy's armbar from the guard. However you gotta do all that with folks that actually know what they're doing & not just some kung fu student trying to act the part.

[SenseiShellie]

Liddell and Cro Cop.

Cro Cop may have the best takedown defense in the world.

really? maybe cro cop has grown as a fighter, but every fight i have seen if the fighter wants him on his back, cro cop goes down.

Cro cop trains with one of the top BJJ fighters in the world and is at least a purple, if not brown belt, by now. Silva is a BJJ black belt.

All the wrestlers (Matt Hughes, Mike Van Aresdale, Kevin Randleman, Couture) have extensive ground backgrounds, as ground work plays at a big roll in all wrestling programs.

Karo Parisyan and Fedor both have Sambo backgrounds. Sambo has significant groundwork.

Pretty much all top MMA guys train hard on the ground, in addition to the other areas.

I'm pretty sure Anderson Silva is also a BJJ black belt.


Anderson Silva is a BJJ Black Bet. Karo does Judo. I think Fedor has a really good takedown defense, GSP, and so does BJ Penn, but no one has better takedown than Chuck

[LeeCasebolt]

really?

Not really. Mirko has very good takedown defense for a guy who never wrestled competitively, but "best in the world" is hyperbole at best. You can't compare his defensive wrestling to, say, a Randy Couture or Mark Coleman.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Fact:

Wanna stop the takedown?
Get very ,very good AT DOING the takedown.

Drill, drill and drill and when you have finished, drill some more.

After that, get on your back, get on your side, get on your ass and get comfortable with being there because, chances are, you will end up there sooner or later.

One "secret" that strikers use to stop the shoot?
The train against it SO MUCH and they study their opponent SO MUCH that they can 'read" the shoot.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Wanna stop the takedown?
Get very ,very good AT DOING the takedown.

Reply]
What? How is that going to work?

Stopping a takedown, and a doing take down are two totally different skills. You can't practice a totally unrelated skill, and get good at something else.

[bodhitree]

Wanna stop the takedown?
Get very ,very good AT DOING the takedown.

Reply]
What? How is that going to work?

Stopping a takedown, and a doing take down are two totally different skills. You can't practice a totally unrelated skill, and get good at something else.


when you understand the mechanics of something you will naturally understand countering it more


when you practice takedowns you will drill it cooperatively, but you will also do it with non-compliant partners (i.e. wrestling, judo,etc.) so you will develop both skills




And you call me a wanna be loser

Doesn't gongfu mean hard work?

stop looking for the majic bullet

[sanjuro_ronin]

Wanna stop the takedown?
Get very ,very good AT DOING the takedown.

Reply]
What? How is that going to work?

Stopping a takedown, and a doing take down are two totally different skills. You can't practice a totally unrelated skill, and get good at something else.

What Bodhitree said ( minus the loser comment, I don't know you well enough to insult you :D )

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

when you understand the mechanics of something you will naturally understand countering it more


Reply]
If that worked, then doing forms would be a valuable training tool....:rolleyes:

[bodhitree]

when you understand the mechanics of something you will naturally understand countering it more


Reply]
If that worked, then doing forms would be a valuable training tool....:rolleyes:


I didn't say anything about forms? :confused:

[sanjuro_ronin]

when you understand the mechanics of something you will naturally understand countering it more


Reply]
If that worked, then doing forms would be a valuable training tool....:rolleyes:

Do you know why Royce was so sucessful in the early UFC's as were most BJJ guys in VT ?
because they dealt strikers all the time and knew the strong points and weak points of their game, BUT the strikers NEVER dealt with grapplers and as such, had no clue how to deal with them.

[tjmitch]

Chuck Liddell is the 'prototypical' stand up fighter in the UFC. He keeps fights standing, and knocks guys the Eff out. He trains at 'The Pit' in Hawiian Kempo with John Hackleman. His ability to sprawl in uncanny......he has been able to keep fights standing against world class wrestlers like Randy Couture and with BJJ black belts. Also, when he does get taken down, he is able to get back to his feet very quickly...exactly what a stand up fighter should be looking to do.

Thats the good news.


The bad news is he is also wrestled in high school and college, and has been doing BJJ for years...in fact I have seen pictures of him competing in BJJ GI tournements.

The only way to be able to 'counter' good wrestling or grappling is by being a good grappler. Sprawling against a shoot is your first line of defense against a takedown.....and the only way to have an excellent sprawl is to wrestle against good wrestlers. LIVE.

[BM2]

LOL!!!
He asks how they stop from getting taken down and when mutilple people tell him the same thing, he tells them they are not getting what he is asking!
What he really should have said was the truth; Hey guys, what type of striking do I need to do to keep from being taken down? You guys just keep giving me the wrong answer.
When I kept getting caught in the rubber guard triangle by a blue belt in class that got 2nd in a no-gi tournament and had used it to submit 4 people during that competion, I asked him to show it to me. Then I understood what I had to do to keep it from working as I learned it.
I learned before I could do the next set up I had to have this one first, ect... .

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Originally Posted by RD'S Alias - 1A View Post
when you understand the mechanics of something you will naturally understand countering it more


Reply]
If that worked, then doing forms would be a valuable training tool....

I didn't say anything about forms?

Reply]
No, but you recommended learning a skill that has nothing to do with defending a takedown, forms are supposedly unrelated to fighting the same way, so if learning to Do takedowns will make you good at *Not* being taken down (when they are totally different skills), then forms should make you a fighter....and we all know they don't.

[bodhitree]

takedowns and takedown defense are similar in skill

1. you never just rush in and do a takedown, watch a wrestling match, they move, grip, feint, and use combos.

2. when you learn when, where, and how someone opens themself up to a takedown you will see these holes in yourself


3. where did forms come into the conversation, i'm still confused

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

He asks how they stop from getting taken down and when mutilple people tell him the same thing, he tells them they are not getting what he is asking!

Reply]
That is because I am NOT asking how to avoid the take down, I am asking WHO the top MMA strikers are, that are GOOD at take down defense, and win with stand up striking, and I am asking to see video of them doing that in fights where they are making it work.

I never asked how to avoid the take down in the first place. I want to know who the top STAND up fighters in MMA are, and see video of them doing thier thing.

I don't want you guys to tell me what to do, I want to see the guys who do it, in action, so I can draw my own insite.

Re read my original thread starting post.

Ok, there has been lots of talk about avoiding the shoot, or defending against BJJ guys. Since MMA is really big now, and we finally have fighters of all persuasions, who are the TOP stand up fighters that are best at avoiding the take down, staying on thier feet and are able to win that way?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

3. where did forms come into the conversation, i'm still confused

Reply]
Because the shoot has NOTHING mechanically in common with a sprawl. You will never get good at sprawling if you spend all your time shooting. What will happen is you will get really good at taking others down, and never develop the skills needed to prevent them from taking you down.. To do that, you need to focus on anti take down skills against a guy who is a good takedown artist.



What you originally said is the same as saying forms make fighters, when form work does not developer any skill a fighter needs. I drew the conclusion that brought forms onto the conversation because you advocated practicing an unrelated skill to learn to do something like a defense..

[CFT]

I don't want you guys to tell me what to do, I want to see the guys who do it, in action, so I can draw my own insite.Watching hours of tournament video is not going to show you the skill development process nor the hundreds/thousands of hours spent developing that skill. People with experience have already commented: you have to do the wrestling/grappling to develop that skill.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Watching hours of tournament video is not going to show you the skill development process nor the hundreds/thousands of hours spent developing that skill. People with experience have already commented: you have to do the wrestling/grappling to develop that skill.

Reply]
No S#!T Sherlock. Are there any other astute observations that a Master of the Obvious, such as yourself, can offer? :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Watching hours of tournament video is not going to show you the skill development process nor the hundreds/thousands of hours spent developing that skill. People with experience have already commented: you have to do the wrestling/grappling to develop that skill.

Reply]
No S#!T Sherlock. Are there any other astute observations that a Master of the Obvious, such as yourself, can offer? :rolleyes:

If you want a wise investment in striking in MMA, The Rua's Brothers Chute boxe DVD is my suggestion to you.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Does it cover good anti take down tactics for stand up fighters?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Does it cover good anti take down tactics for stand up fighters?

Understatment, yes it does, chute boxe is notorious for teaching the skills needed to be a stand up fighter in the MMA world.

[sanjuro_ronin]

One thing though, you need to understand the difference in training to avoid the take down vs trained fighters and VS your everyday rectum biter.

[Becca]

What abut guys who are primarily strikers, who are good at defending the takedown and staying on thier feet? Are they all good on the ground?

Yep, every last one of them.
You guys are missing the point here.

I am looking for guys who are primarily STANDUP fighters, who are good at keeping the fight standing up by avoiding the take down.

I don't really want to discuss BJJ specialists. Yes, I know *Everyone* does BJJ on some level, but I am more interested in guys who specifically avoid the ground, and win standing up.
Number one that comes to mind is Chuck. He hate's to take it to the ground. He's also a bad @ss wrestler.:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

small sample:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJrjRg2bIRw

[Becca]

Wanna stop the takedown?
Get very ,very good AT DOING the takedown.

Reply]
What? How is that going to work?

Stopping a takedown, and a doing take down are two totally different skills. You can't practice a totally unrelated skill, and get good at something else.
No they aren't. Just as you get better blocking strike when you get beter at throwing them, you get better at take-down defence as you get better at executing a take-down.

[Becca]

3. where did forms come into the conversation, i'm still confused

RD is a forms guy; they are never far from his mind.;):D

[Becca]

anderson sylva vs jeremy horn (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZUQ7_elJ2s&mode=related&search=)

kinda more of a music video tribute to the fight, but it shows exactly how Silva was able to make the big bold strikes without haveing to worry too much about Horn's shoots.

[DPL]

Fact:

Wanna stop the takedown?
Get very ,very good AT DOING the takedown.

Drill, drill and drill and when you have finished, drill some more.

RD's right - this is not good advice. You don't practice blocking punches by punching, you practice blocking punches by... blocking punches. The rest of what you write in that post makes sense, because you're talking about practicing defense to get better at defense. But the first couple of sentences are ludicrous.

Practicing offense to get better at defense is, at best, going to provide some additional perspective. It's not going to train your reflexes or body mechanics to do what you need to do.

[CFT]

No S#!T Sherlock. Are there any other astute observations that a Master of the Obvious, such as yourself, can offer? :rolleyes:Yes, fecal matter, Watson! When you ignore the same advice from 10 people, it doesn't hurt to hammer it home does it? :rolleyes:

"when all other contingencies fail, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth" (The Adventure of Bruce-Partington Plans)

[bodhitree]

RD's right - this is not good advice. You don't practice blocking punches by punching, you practice blocking punches by... blocking punches. The rest of what you write in that post makes sense, because you're talking about practicing defense to get better at defense. But the first couple of sentences are ludicrous.

Practicing offense to get better at defense is, at best, going to provide some additional perspective. It's not going to train your reflexes or body mechanics to do what you need to do.


To get good at takedowns and takedown defense you need to wrestle/randori/whatever you want to call it. everything else will pretty much be out of context.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Great clips guys, THAT is what I am looking for!! Thanks!!!

Bring more!

[DPL]

To get good at takedowns and takedown defense you need to wrestle/randori/whatever you want to call it. everything else will pretty much be out of context.

He wasn't talking about getting good at takedowns. Just takedown defense. And to get good at takedown defense you need to practice takedown defense, not takedowns.

Find one or more people who are good at takedowns and work with them until they can't take you down anymore, or at least very rarely. Working on performing takedowns when your goal is to stand up is stupid.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Yes, fecal matter, Watson! When you ignore the same advice from 10 people, it doesn't hurt to hammer it home does it

Reply]
I wasn't ignoring it, it's just that i already know that really well. I have been in this game since about 1989. I know you need to work with real people, of real skill. I already do that when I can. I am not looking to be told over, and over again, ad nauseum, something I already know well. I am looking to explore new territory, and I want to look at what the best are doing (hence the desire for the clips), and making work, while still staying within the confines of predominantly stand up fighters, because Kung Fu is mostly stand up with lock and throws.

[Becca]

Find one or more people who are good at takedowns and work with them until they can't take you down anymore, or at least very rarely.
I used to have this aditude, too. You can only go so far with that method. Sooner or later you are going to need to get good at actually working the ground. A good grappler doesn't need to shoot to get you to the ground. And the only way you can get a good feel for all the many ways a grappler can get you there is to learn how to get others there yourself.

I could keep any and veryone from taking me down in the MMA crowd I used to spar with. I can still keep a good submission wrestler off me for a bit, but sooner or later, they will get me. I have been working with a top notch summission wrestler for almost 2 months now. He knows full well my main goal is to learn how to make my kung fu work against true grapplers.

The first thing he taught me was how to move like a wrestler. Then how to shoot like a wrestler. Now we are working on how to get back to my feet after I get taken down. The best part is, he's also a bit of a kung fu guy, so he's showing me how to get back to my feet using techniques common in kung fu.:)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

RD is a forms guy; they are never far from his mind.

Reply]
LOL!! But I really only work a small handfull of them, and most of that is working the techniques from the forms with my partner now....so I really am not accepted by the form fairies anymore either. :(

I am in limbo somewhere between the two. ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

RD's right - this is not good advice. You don't practice blocking punches by punching, you practice blocking punches by... blocking punches. The rest of what you write in that post makes sense, because you're talking about practicing defense to get better at defense. But the first couple of sentences are ludicrous.

Practicing offense to get better at defense is, at best, going to provide some additional perspective. It's not going to train your reflexes or body mechanics to do what you need to do.

I don't think you understand what I wrote.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Great clips guys, THAT is what I am looking for!! Thanks!!!

Bring more!

You can't learn what you want to know from clips of actual matches, you need to see clips of training and instructionals.

Just like you don't learn how to box from watching Roy Jones jr fight or Hopkins.

[Ben Gash]

RD, just buy http://www.budovideos.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=18340&cat=&page=2 , It shows you how to do it, how to defend it, and what goes wrong and why.
Knowing how to do them means that you understand how to defend them that much better. However, as has been said, ultimately at some point you WILL go to ground, so you need to be able to use guard and half guard defensively , and guard sweeps.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

You can't learn what you want to know from clips of actual matches, you need to see clips of training and instructionals.

Just like you don't learn how to box from watching Roy Jones jr fight or Hopkins.

Reply]
True, but it really helps to get an overview to help foster the inspiration, and get perspective.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

RD, just buy http://www.budovideos.com/shop/custo...40&cat=&page=2 , It shows you how to do it, how to defend it, and what goes wrong and why.

Reply]
Awesome, Thanks!!

Knowing how to do them means that you understand how to defend them that much better. However, as has been said, ultimately at some point you WILL go to ground, so you need to be able to use guard and half guard defensively , and guard sweeps.

Reply]
I will get to that a bit later. Right now I am still investigating.

[lkfmdc]

RD, just buy http://www.budovideos.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=18340&cat=&page=2 , It shows you how to do it, how to defend it, and what goes wrong and why.
Knowing how to do them means that you understand how to defend them that much better. However, as has been said, ultimately at some point you WILL go to ground, so you need to be able to use guard and half guard defensively , and guard sweeps.

just buy the USA wrestling syllabus series, get more, from better people

[SevenStar]

You guys are missing the point here.

I am looking for guys who are primarily STANDUP fighters, who are good at keeping the fight standing up by avoiding the take down.

I don't really want to discuss BJJ specialists. Yes, I know *Everyone* does BJJ on some level, but I am more interested in guys who specifically avoid the ground, and win standing up.

let's call it what it sounds like it really is... you are looking for standup guys who don't do a lot of grappling, yet still avoid takedowns. you really won't find any of those. the strikers who avoid takedowns adequately are more often than not also very well versed in ground work.

[DPL]

I used to have this aditude, too. You can only go so far with that method. Sooner or later you are going to need to get good at actually working the ground. A good grappler doesn't need to shoot to get you to the ground. And the only way you can get a good feel for all the many ways a grappler can get you there is to learn how to get others there yourself.

I could keep any and veryone from taking me down in the MMA crowd I used to spar with. I can still keep a good submission wrestler off me for a bit, but sooner or later, they will get me. I have been working with a top notch summission wrestler for almost 2 months now. He knows full well my main goal is to learn how to make my kung fu work against true grapplers.

The first thing he taught me was how to move like a wrestler. Then how to shoot like a wrestler. Now we are working on how to get back to my feet after I get taken down. The best part is, he's also a bit of a kung fu guy, so he's showing me how to get back to my feet using techniques common in kung fu.:)

I've wrestled and practiced ground fighting since junior high school.

My argument is not 'ground fighting is bad'. My argument is, if you want to get good at takedown defense, it will be far more beneficial to practice takedown defense than performing the takedown itself.

[DPL]

I don't think you understand what I wrote.

Dude, you wrote:
--------------------------------------------
Fact:

Wanna stop the takedown?
Get very ,very good AT DOING the takedown.

Drill, drill and drill and when you have finished, drill some more.
---------------------------------------------
I wrote that this is bad advice. If you want to stop the takedown, practice stopping the takedown.

I've got no issue with the rest of your post. Just that first part.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Dude, you wrote:
--------------------------------------------
Fact:

Wanna stop the takedown?
Get very ,very good AT DOING the takedown.

Drill, drill and drill and when you have finished, drill some more.
---------------------------------------------
I wrote that this is bad advice. If you want to stop the takedown, practice stopping the takedown.

I've got no issue with the rest of your post. Just that first part.

And I said that I don't think you UNDERSTAND what I wrote.
My advice was the same as saying that, if you wanna learn how to stop a boxer from hitting you, learn to box.

Do you disagree with that too ?

[Becca]

My argument is not 'ground fighting is bad'. My argument is, if you want to get good at takedown defense, it will be far more beneficial to practice takedown defense than performing the takedown itself.And mine is that only defending takedowns will only help you with the takedowns your training parters use. What happens when you slip? That ain't a takedown, but you sure as heck are on the ground. Takedown defence alone will not help you get back to your feet.

Working a sprawl only helps when all you need to do is sprawl. If your sparring or fighting a good grappler, they will figure out very quickly that you are a one-trick pony and get you with something else. You can't even begin to understand all the ways they can get you till you see it from thier perspective...

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

My argument is not 'ground fighting is bad'. My argument is, if you want to get good at takedown defense, it will be far more beneficial to practice takedown defense than performing the takedown itself.

Reply]
That may be a point, but I prefer to keep things in my own element. I really don't want to be a grappler, I want to do what I do, and get better at that.

That being said, the grappler is a force to be reconed with, and I need some experience in dealing with them and learning how to keep them from taking me out of my element.

[MasterKiller]

I need some experience in dealing with them and learning how to keep them from taking me out of my element.

The only way to get that experience is by working out with grapplers in the first place.

[DPL]

And mine is that only defending takedowns will only help you with the takedowns your training parters use. What happens when you slip? That ain't a takedown, but you sure as heck are on the ground. Takedown defence alone will not help you get back to your feet.

Working a sprawl only helps when all you need to do is sprawl. If your sparring or fighting a good grappler, they will figure out very quickly that you are a one-trick pony and get you with something else. You can't even begin to understand all the ways they can get you till you see it from thier perspective...

Read my posts again, very very carefully. I'll break them down for you to make it easier:

I'm not talking about the value of any other ground fighting technique other than takedown defense.

I'm not talking about my own opinion about ground fighting.

I'm not saying that if you just have a good takedown defense, you don't have to fight on the ground.

I am saying, in response to the post by sanjuro-ronin, that you have to practice takedown defense in order to get good at takedown defense. HE/SHE said you needed to practice performing takedowns in order to get good at takedown defense, which is obviously ludicrous.

This just in:

In a bold new initiative inspired by Mixed-up Martial Artists on KFM Forum, all NFL defensive team members will FIRST learn how to play offense perfectly in order to play defense better, instead of concentrating their efforts on the unique skills, body mechanics and trained reaction sets needed to play defense.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Wow...just wow....
:(

[DPL]

And I said that I don't think you UNDERSTAND what I wrote.
My advice was the same as saying that, if you wanna learn how to stop a boxer from hitting you, learn to box.

Do you disagree with that too ?

I understood your post perfectly. The problem is that it's a silly suggestion.

If you are a boxer, and you want to stop another boxer from hitting you, you do NOT practice punching. You practice blocking, footwork, bobbing and weaving.

Following your logic, pitchers should be the best hitters in baseball because they know how to pitch really, really well. Doesn't really prove out in the real world, though, does it?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

The only way to get that experience is by working out with grapplers in the first place.

Reply]
Yeah, but you don't have to become one to learn how to deal with them.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I understood your post perfectly. The problem is that it's a silly suggestion.

If you are a boxer, and you want to stop another boxer from hitting you, you do NOT practice punching. You practice blocking, footwork, bobbing and weaving.

Following your logic, pitchers should be the best hitters in baseball because they know how to pitch really, really well. Doesn't really prove out in the real world, though, does it?

You are comparing apples and oranges, yes they are both fruits and yes they both have peels and grow on trees, but no one will confuse one with the other.

Fighting is NOT a game of specialization, the well rounded fighter will win on average.

Fact is, you will get the same advice I gave you from Chuck, Mirco and others.

How do I know that?

I asked them.
:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

The only way to get that experience is by working out with grapplers in the first place.

Reply]
Yeah, but you don't have to become one to learn how to deal with them.

Nope, but you do have to train with them and by "knowing ones enemy", you'll be all the better for it.

[DPL]

You are comparing apples and oranges, yes they are both fruits and yes they both have peels and grow on trees, but no one will confuse one with the other.

Fighting is NOT a game of specialization, the well rounded fighter will win on average.

Fact is, you will get the same advice I gave you from Chuck, Mirco and others.

How do I know that?

I asked them.
:D

Wow, you must be someone really important. :rolleyes:

One more time, since you're not arguing the actual point.

I'm talking about the specific skill of defending against a takedown. Not being a well-rounded fighter, not which UFC/Pride superstars you personally know or blew last week - just practicing a specific skill.

Let's put it this way, if you had absolutely no martial training whatsoever and you were put into a competition in which your ONLY goal is to not be taken to the ground, would you practice taking someone to the ground, in the belief that practicing the takedown would help you more quickly learn to avoid it? Or would you practice defending against it in the belief that practicing defense would help you more quickly learn to avoid it?

Which technique would you practice to avoid going to the ground, with the understanding that the fight is OVER as soon as you hit the ground.

Try to stick on point this time. Even though, by your logic, NOT sticking on point will help you stick on point in later arguments.

[Becca]

I am saying, in response to the post by sanjuro-ronin, that you have to practice takedown defense in order to get good at takedown defense.
Yes, I actually understand what you are saying. I used to have that exact opinion. Then I treid to use my take "down defence only" skills up against a real grappler. I got my bum handed to me. It took him all of 2 minuets to figure out I was a one trick pony; I could sprawl with the best, but if he got creative, i was lost.

You can block punches all day. You get so you can block any kind; round house, jab, backhand, ect... Then someone throws what you think is a haymaker. But you don't have enough experiance throwing wild punches to realize that isn't what it is!. Same with only working takedown defence.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Wow, you must be someone really important.


Yes, yes I am.
:D

[DPL]

Yes, I actually understand what you are saying. I used to have that exact opinion. Then I treid to use my take "down defence only" skills up against a real grappler. I got my bum handed to me. It took him all of 2 minuets to figure out I was a one trick pony; I could sprawl with the best, but if he got creative, i was lost.

You can block punches all day. You get so you can block any kind; round house, jab, backhand, ect... Then someone throws what you think is a haymaker. But you don't have enough experiance throwing wild punches to realize that isn't what it is!. Same with only working takedown defence.

?? Had you practiced your 'takedown defense' with any real grapplers before you met the guy who handed you your bum? And did it take him one hand or both hands to hand you your full bum?

I'm talking about practicing a wide variety of takedown defense techniques, working in conjunction with someone (preferably more than one someone) who is skilled in a wide variety of ways to try to take you down. Again, just talking about that one aspect of transitional fighting.

[Pork Chop]

And mine is that only defending takedowns will only help you with the takedowns your training parters use. What happens when you slip? That ain't a takedown, but you sure as heck are on the ground. Takedown defence alone will not help you get back to your feet.

Working a sprawl only helps when all you need to do is sprawl. If your sparring or fighting a good grappler, they will figure out very quickly that you are a one-trick pony and get you with something else. You can't even begin to understand all the ways they can get you till you see it from thier perspective...

I'm quoting this coz I like it.

I think arguing the point with these 2 guys is moot.
They've got it in their head that avoiding the takedown is just a few techniques that they can just learn and train on their own.

Just because you train a little wrestling, doesn't mean you're going to use it as your fighting style.
Ditto for boxing, muay thai, bjj, etc.
But if you feel it and try to use it, you can poke holes in it.

I used to be a lot like these two thinking I could just get a feel for something without really experiencing and counter it with my own stuff.
I guess in a sense you can, but you'd need really good and really patient training partners who really feel like helping.

Boxing was my first time where I got a good feel for something that (at the time) I wasn't intending to use. Trying to punch other people & use the footwork, I quickly realized what it was open to. Things I thought would work just by looking at boxing from the outside & understanding the punches, I discovered wouldn't work- because I learned what the boxer would do to counter.

The same thing happened when I started sanshou and again when i made the move to muay thai and yet again when I did judo, bjj, etc.

You can learn so much more about something & how to beat it when you actually try to apply it.

David Loiseau, although not that big a name now, was a guy I liked to watch. He was a more traditionally trained martial artist, with good elbows. Yes, he works ground, he's pretty comfortable in all ranges- but he's mostly known as a striker. He's also got very good defense against the rear naked choke. Eventhough he prefers to strike, the time he's put in rolling has taught him to keep his head above water on the ground so he can get back up and strike some more.

With so many resources available to learn these other styles & play around at trying to apply them with competent practitioners, why NOT try it out? It won't turn you into a fighter for that other style overnight, but it will give you a good idea of their strategy, what it's limitations might be, and what to watch out for.

[DPL]

I'm quoting this coz I like it.

I think arguing the point with these 2 guys is moot.
They've got it in their head that avoiding the takedown is just a few techniques that they can just learn and train on their own.

I used to be a lot like these two thinking I could just get a feel for something without really experiencing and counter it with my own stuff.


Good God, man, how many times do I have to say it?

I'm NOT saying that you don't have to have a good ground game or you don't have to practice takedowns or any of that crap.

I'm saying to get good at the ONE, SPECIFIC SKILL of defending against takedowns, you need to PRACTICE defending against takedowns.

Sanjuro-ronin made a post that you had to practice takedowns to learn how to defend against them. I stand by my initial response that this is ludicrous. You have to practice defending against them to learn how to defend against them.

I'm talking about working with people who know how to perform takedowns, in order to make sure your defense is up to snuff. NOT living in some fantasy world where you were told you have a takedown defense and you believe that right up until the moment someone gives you a hard dose of reality.

Knowing how to perform a takedown is a valuable, useful skill, but AT BEST it only adds some perspective to the act of defending against one.

Now go take a reading comprehension course.

[Pork Chop]

Let's put it this way, if you had absolutely no martial training whatsoever and you were put into a competition in which your ONLY goal is to not be taken to the ground, would you practice taking someone to the ground, in the belief that practicing the takedown would help you more quickly learn to avoid it? Or would you practice defending against it in the belief that practicing defense would help you more quickly learn to avoid it?


I'm just going to say this, and i know you're going to disagree so it's pointless to argue, but i would personally train BOTH.

Learning how to shoot means learning that I gotta drop my level; learning that i should set up with a fake; learning that my weight will come forward- but not be bending at the waist; and learning that my penetration step will have to drive much further than my target's current position.

All of these things I can benefit from knowing as I defend a shot.

If you can't see that, all I can say is I'm sorry but you're biased.

[Pork Chop]

Knowing how to perform a takedown is a valuable, useful skill, but AT BEST it only adds some perspective to the act of defending against one.


wait, wait wait wait wait
you admit it adds some perspective, but maintain that it's no benefit to the skill?
hahahahahh

frat

[sanjuro_ronin]

Good God, man, how many times do I have to say it?

I'm NOT saying that you don't have to have a good ground game or you don't have to practice takedowns or any of that crap.

I'm saying to get good at the ONE, SPECIFIC SKILL of defending against takedowns, you need to PRACTICE defending against takedowns.

Sanjuro-ronin made a post that you had to practice takedowns to learn how to defend against them. I stand by my initial response that this is ludicrous. You have to practice defending against them to learn how to defend against them.

I'm talking about working with people who know how to perform takedowns, in order to make sure your defense is up to snuff. NOT living in some fantasy world where you were told you have a takedown defense and you believe that right up until the moment someone gives you a hard dose of reality.

Knowing how to perform a takedown is a valuable, useful skill, but AT BEST it only adds some perspective to the act of defending against one.

Now go take a reading comprehension course.

I think the context of what I wrote is what you may have missed.

Its not about beating someone at their own game, I would never recommend that, nor is it about specificity.
Its about knowing the ins and outs of Subject A as to better be prepared for Subject A.
If all you are gonna do is "defend the takedown", that's fine, all you have to do is realize the almost INFINTE number of ways you CAN be taken down.

Of wait you can't because UNLESS yo train take downs you won't understand them and their weaknesses.

This is age old advice, not just me whipping out my chi :D

[DPL]

I'm just going to say this, and i know you're going to disagree so it's pointless to argue, but i would personally train BOTH.

Learning how to shoot means learning that I gotta drop my level; learning that i should set up with a fake; learning that my weight will come forward- but not be bending at the waist; and learning that my penetration step will have to drive much further than my target's current position.

All of these things I can benefit from knowing as I defend a shot.

If you can't see that, all I can say is I'm sorry but you're biased.

Way to avoid the question. How's that fencepost feel riding up your bum?

If you had to choose ONE and ONLY ONE way to improve your defense against a takedown, would you choose practicing defense, or practicing the takedown itself?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Way to avoid the question. How's that fencepost feel riding up your bum?

If you had to choose ONE and ONLY ONE way to improve your defense against a takedown, would you choose practicing defense, or practicing the takedown itself?

heck, I'll answer that, if I had to choose ONLY ONE, I would choose defense, though I hate defense.
Its NOT the ideal, but its better than nothing.

Of course one may say that a good offense is the best defense...but lets not do there.

[DPL]

I think the context of what I wrote is what you may have missed.

Its not about beating someone at their own game, I would never recommend that, nor is it about specificity.
Its about knowing the ins and outs of Subject A as to better be prepared for Subject A.
If all you are gonna do is "defend the takedown", that's fine, all you have to do is realize the almost INFINTE number of ways you CAN be taken down.

Of wait you can't because UNLESS yo train take downs you won't understand them and their weaknesses.

This is age old advice, not just me whipping out my chi :D

I was actually responding to Pork Chop with that one, but hey, what's in a name?

If you spend all your time working on learning the almost 'INFINITE' number of ways you can be taken down (which, remember, you said to do FIRST) then you're never going to be practicing defending against the takedown.

And when someone comes at you with a takedown technique that you recognize, and you can perform flawlessly yourself, you will not have practiced the body mechanics and trained reactions to defend against it because you spent all your time practicing performing it, and you will have to 'think' your way through the response, meaning you'll very likely get taken down.

[DPL]

heck, I'll answer that, if I had to choose ONLY ONE, I would choose defense, though I hate defense.
Its NOT the ideal, but its better than nothing.

Of course one may say that a good offense is the best defense...but lets not do there.

Thank you. Case closed. Point made. Next subject please...

[sanjuro_ronin]

I was actually responding to Pork Chop with that one, but hey, what's in a name?

If you spend all your time working on learning the almost 'INFINITE' number of ways you can be taken down (which, remember, you said to do FIRST) then you're never going to be practicing defending against the takedown.

And when someone comes at you with a takedown technique that you recognize, and you can perform flawlessly yourself, you will not have practiced the body mechanics and trained reactions to defend against it because you spent all your time practicing performing it, and you will have to 'think' your way through the response, meaning you'll very likely get taken down.

I think you have made your position clear, as I have made mine.

[Becca]

?? Had you practiced your 'takedown defense' with any real grapplers before you met the guy who handed you your bum? And did it take him one hand or both hands to hand you your full bum?

I'm talking about practicing a wide variety of takedown defense techniques, working in conjunction with someone (preferably more than one someone) who is skilled in a wide variety of ways to try to take you down. Again, just talking about that one aspect of transitional fighting.

Yep. There's an MMA group here in Commerce City I used to roll with. Almost all of them have a large take down repertoire. Then I was challenged to go find a "true grappler" and try my stuff. That's when I found out what a good grappler was actually like.

Submission grappling ain't like that stuff you see or did in high school. Those guys are like surgons; within a few minutes of rolling with you they will pin point your weak spot and use it to get you to the ground. You will never truelly get good at defending them because they don't just look for a take down. They have absolutly no problem suckering you into doing what they need you to do to get you into a bad spot. You want to be able to defend agains them? You gotta get at least a bit of familiarization with what they are looking for from their perspective.

You don't have to become a grappler; I wasn't looking to become a grappler. I was looking to learn what a grappler looks for. I assumed he'd want to see me roll first them start working with me on what was week about my defence. He didn't; he asked me how my takedowns were, which I was good at and which I wasn't. How were my sprawls? How good was I at moving around on the mat off my feet? It took him about 30 seconds to figure out I was one of those traditionalists looking for the maigic bullet.

It took me about 1 minute of working with him to realize that there isn't one. A good grappler can use any portion of your body, every ripple of momentum comming from your body, to make you do what he/she needs you to do for them to get you to the ground. There's just no way to get better than mediocre at defending a take down untill you understand why they are trying to manuver you. You need to see the take down from their perspective to really get it, or sooner or later, you are going to end up on your belly, tangled in a not that would make a sailor proud. And have no idea how you got there.

[sanjuro_ronin]

...Know thy enemy....

[Becca]

Knowing how to perform a takedown is a valuable, useful skill, but AT BEST it only adds some perspective to the act of defending against one.

It is valuable and useful and nessisary if you want to be more than mediocre at defending the takedown.

Can you learn to defend yourself with out learning how to attack. Yes. Will you ever be truely good at it? No.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In judo, before you are taught how to defend the throw, you are taught the throw, in boxing, before you are taught how to defend the right cross or left hook, you are taught the right cross or left hook.

In full contact Golf, people are psycho !

[Fu-Ying]

You guys are missing the point here.

I am looking for guys who are primarily STANDUP fighters, who are good at keeping the fight standing up by avoiding the take down.

I don't really want to discuss BJJ specialists. Yes, I know *Everyone* does BJJ on some level, but I am more interested in guys who specifically avoid the ground, and win standing up.

Fedor is the Champion of the World and he doesn't do ANY BJJ. His brother Alexsander is a pretty sucessful MMA fighter and doesn't do any BJJ either. Sambo is not BJJ.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Fedor is the Champion of the World and he doesn't do ANY BJJ. His brother Alexsander is a pretty sucessful MMA fighter and doesn't do any BJJ either. Sambo is not BJJ.

Very true, where as BJJ is Basically Just Judo, Sambo is wrestlingfied Judo ( or judofied wrestling if you prefer) :D

[Fu-Ying]

Wrestlingfied Judo...LOL:D funny

Sambo has a lot more than just grappling moves though. In its original form it had a lot of strikes and kicks also.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Wrestlingfied Judo...LOL:D funny

Sambo has a lot more than just grappling moves though. In its original form it had a lot of strikes and kicks also.

You mean Combat Sambo ?


or maybe Samba, that sh!t is the deadly !

[Lucas]

I got halfway through the pingpong match.

A coin has two sides.

You CANNOT know the entire coin if you only look at one side.

You MUST look at both sides.

you must learn how to take down as well as how to defend against a takedown, all various forms of takedowns.

Now if your primary concern is defending a takedown, you will spend the MAJORITY of your time working on the defending of such an attack.

HOWEVER, you must also spend time learning how to take someone down, so that you can get the full picture. as DPL said, more perspective.

but this 'more perspective' is required if you want to be "the best" you can be adequite without it, but who are we kidding here, who wants to train to be adequite? dont we want to be as best as we can be?

IMO, there is only one goal in the martial arts. That goal being: to be able to drop your opponent by any means possible as fast as you can.

sometimes knowing how to take a man down will aid you in this goal. sometimes it wont.

best to be at least marginally prepared.

[Fu-Ying]

Ya, Combat Sambo. Which Iam sure the Emelienenko's are trained in.

Samba is even more DEADLY than Fedor and CroCop in the same alley!:D

[Knifefighter]

I am saying, in response to the post by sanjuro-ronin, that you have to practice takedown defense in order to get good at takedown defense. HE/SHE said you needed to practice performing takedowns in order to get good at takedown defense, which is obviously ludicrous.

DPL is right... you don't have to be good at takedowns to be good at defending agaisnt them. You just have to learn and practice good takedown defense against people with good takedown skills

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

DPL is right... you don't have to be good at takedowns to be good at defending agaisnt them. You just have to learn and practice good takedown defense against people with good takedown skills

Reply]
That is going to be another phase of this. First I want to get my training partner up to speed, and work some of the rust from my Stand up game, and then I am going to seek some good BJJ guys in the Chicago area.

[fopah]

chuck norris

[DPL]

Yep. There's an MMA group here in Commerce City I used to roll with. Almost all of them have a large take down repertoire. Then I was challenged to go find a "true grappler" and try my stuff. That's when I found out what a good grappler was actually like.

The quote above leaves me a bit curious about one thing: what was the difference between the 'real grapplers' in the MMA group, with their 'large takedown repertoires', and the 'true grappler' who showed you the light? What were the MMA folks missing that became so quickly obvious when you met The Truth?

I'm sincerely curious about this, because you see a lot of the Cult of Grappling out there, which has strong similarities to the Cult of Chi and the Cult of Forms and the Cult of MMA in that folks don't know what they think they know, because they're learning the Best Thing in the World.

[Knifefighter]

The quote above leaves me a bit curious about one thing: what was the difference between the 'real grapplers' in the MMA group, with their 'large takedown repertoires', and the 'true grappler' who showed you the light? What were the MMA folks missing that became so quickly obvious when you met The Truth?

I'm sincerely curious about this, because you see a lot of the Cult of Grappling out there, which has strong similarities to the Cult of Chi and the Cult of Forms and the Cult of MMA in that folks don't know what they think they know, because they're learning the Best Thing in the World.

She doesn't know and is more than likely making everything up. The fact is that submission grapplers, BJJ'ers, and MMA fighters (as a group) don't have especially good takedowns. The people with great takedowns (who may be part of the above mentioned groups, but do not make up the majority) are wrestlers (greco, freestyle or folkstyle) or former wrestlers who have at least some collegiate or open level competition experience.

[Pork Chop]

DPL is right... you don't have to be good at takedowns to be good at defending agaisnt them. You just have to learn and practice good takedown defense against people with good takedown skills

Just to play devil's advocate.
I used to get caught with a sanshou version of seionage a lot... a LOT a lot...
that is until i went to a judo class and started studying judo...
yeah, they taught me some new defenses, but i don't think i would've found those defenses on my own until i actually started training the style itself...
learning the concepts of kuzushi and the fit helped me understand the throw & how to defend it much better as well.
Now I'm not a judo guy; doubt I could pull off an ogoshi on a beginner, but my time in that class helped me defend those takedowns better.
So in my case it helped.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Just to play devil's advocate.
I used to get caught with a sanshou version of seionage a lot... a LOT a lot...
that is until i went to a judo class and started studying judo...
yeah, they taught me some new defenses, but i don't think i would've found those defenses on my own until i actually started training the style itself...
learning the concepts of kuzushi and the fit helped me understand the throw & how to defend it much better as well.
Now I'm not a judo guy; doubt I could pull off an ogoshi on a beginner, but my time in that class helped me defend those takedowns better.
So in my case it helped.

You are quite correct, see my earlier posts on what is taught first in judo, BJJ, wrestling, etc, is it the attacks or the defenses?

[Becca]

The quote above leaves me a bit curious about one thing: what was the difference between the 'real grapplers' in the MMA group, with their 'large takedown repertoires', and the 'true grappler' who showed you the light? What were the MMA folks missing that became so quickly obvious when you met The Truth?

I'm sincerely curious about this, because you see a lot of the Cult of Grappling out there, which has strong similarities to the Cult of Chi and the Cult of Forms and the Cult of MMA in that folks don't know what they think they know, because they're learning the Best Thing in the World.

The one's I was used to are more like journeymen or high level neophytes. The one's I've been exposed to in the last 2 months are true artists. I walked into that gym looking to make my kung fu work better and found that there is a whole depth to grappling I never knew existed. I still believe alot of the big mouths you here from are "cult grapplers."

Submission wrestling is Brian's specialty. (He doesn't seem entierly comfortable being called coach. I'm not entierly comfortable calling him Brian.:p ) But that is by no means all he trains. I've never heard him say anything ngative about any art. I sat and had very enlightening discussions with him on everything from wrestling to jujitsu to the various traditional arts. He ses value in skill and seems to see no point in "purety battles". If it works, or can be made to work, it has value. And almost everything can be made to work.:)

[Becca]

She doesn't know and is more than likely making everything up. The fact is that submission grapplers, BJJ'ers, and MMA fighters (as a group) don't have especially good takedowns. The people with great takedowns (who may be part of the above mentioned groups, but do not make up the majority) are wrestlers (greco, freestyle or folkstyle) or former wrestlers who have at least some collegiate or open level competition experience.
LOL! You're not going to call me out on the Internet Challenge thread are you? I said I was training with a submission wrestler. As in a colligate wrestler who went on to add submissions to his game after school.

[bodhitree]

LOL! You're not going to call me out on the Internet Challenge thread are you? I said I was training with a submission wrestler. As in a colligate wrestler who went on to add submissions to his game after school.


That would make him a wrestler (first).

[DPL]

The one's I was used to are more like journeymen or high level neophytes. The one's I've been exposed to in the last 2 months are true artists. I walked into that gym looking to make my kung fu work better and found that there is a whole depth to grappling I never knew existed. I still believe alot of the big mouths you here from are "cult grapplers."



Thanks for the response but I'm actually looking for more specifics and less generalization. I already got that the MMA folks were missing something and the new guys were good. I'm asking specifically what the MMA folks were missing. Techniques, etc. What was it that the MMA folks were missing? Why were they not anywhere near the same league as the submission grappler/wrestler you're now studying with?

[DPL]

She doesn't know and is more than likely making everything up. The fact is that submission grapplers, BJJ'ers, and MMA fighters (as a group) don't have especially good takedowns. The people with great takedowns (who may be part of the above mentioned groups, but do not make up the majority) are wrestlers (greco, freestyle or folkstyle) or former wrestlers who have at least some collegiate or open level competition experience.

Funny you should say this, 'cause my initial response to her post was that it was just a little too conveniently tailored to my argument, and her initial 'submission grappler' has now also a little too conveniently morphed into a wrestler with collegiate experience after you made this post, but I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt and let her give some specifics on the training.

[Becca]

Thanks for the response but I'm actually looking for more specifics and less generalization. I already got that the MMA folks were missing something and the new guys were good. I'm asking specifically what the MMA folks were missing. Techniques, etc. What was it that the MMA folks were missing? Why were they not anywhere near the same league as the submission grappler/wrestler you're now studying with?

I haven't ben rolling with the good ones long enough to pin point it better for you, sorry. I just notice that there is a definant difference, like how a TKD kicker is better than a KF kicker by vertue of specialization. A submission wrestler is better that a sumbission grappler the same way. I'll let you know when and if I can clarify it better.

But since you are saying I have "tailoerd" my argument, you can read more about my wrestling training here, starting about post # 96. (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45942&page=7)