How Does One Defeat Gracie Jujistu ?

[FANWOO]

i can not figure out how a to keep a gracie jujitsu person from closing the gap and taking a kyukoshin karate (me) to the ground. or how to defeat him. any help please ? oh, i never use high kicks,but rather low and close.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Learn Gracie Jujitsu. They know how to counter thier own stuff.

[Water Dragon]

Judo would be a good choice too. A lot of Karate guys do some Judo.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

WD,
Are you into Pastaphanarisum?

[Knifefighter]

Use your high kicks.

Throw them from a low horse stance.

Then elbow them as they come in.

If that doesn't work, you can lookup some Wing Chun anti grappling on You Tube... it is very effective for keeping them away.

[xcakid]

i can not figure out how a to keep a gracie jujitsu person from closing the gap and taking a kyukoshin karate (me) to the ground. or how to defeat him. any help please ? oh, i never use high kicks,but rather low and close.

Have a friend or two of yours jump on him after he mounts you. BJJ are not big on multiple attackers.

Fight a fighter in his fight and you will rather likely lose if the fighter is better than you. So take him out of his element.

[lkfmdc]

Use your high kicks.

Throw them from a low horse stance.

Then elbow them as they come in.

If that doesn't work, you can lookup some Wing Chun anti grappling on You Tube... it is very effective for keeping them away.

Those mere external systems don't work, you need INTERNAL

Learn Tai Chi, the push hands will deflect them, then use your ba gua grappling

[street_fighter]

the only way to beat a bjjer is to create an alternate dimension in which youve already beaten him.

[bodhitree]

gernade will take him and you out. you've already dishonored yourself and don't deserve to live anyway....

[golden arhat]

take up bjj

then u can pummel them standing up

and pummel them on the ground

in fact


i'd say learn whatever u can from anywhere that seems legit

[RonH]

i can not figure out how a to keep a gracie jujitsu person from closing the gap and taking a kyukoshin karate (me) to the ground. or how to defeat him. any help please ? oh, i never use high kicks,but rather low and close.

Let them come at you. Usually, when someone is taught to take someone to the ground, they say go for their center of gravity. When they lean forward, wrapping their arm(s) around your waist/abdomin, put your elbow at the base of the back of their neck, just above the spot where the shoulders meet the neck. With the same arm, scoop under their upper arm (if you press down with your right elbow, use your right hand to scoop under the upper end of their right upper arm) and pull up on that arm, while you press down on their neck and drop your weight. Don't do it too quickly because this move will extremely easily break a neck making them paralyzed or dead. Going down on one knee is enough to stop a lot of people, just just don't let your body drop like a sack of potatoes. When doing this move, you have to be controlled. No joke. Doing that move, the average neck can only stand about 140 pounds before it's too much. If a little pain this way doesn't stop them, hammer down with your free hand on them. Or make a fist with your free hand, but put the tip of your thumb against the side of first joint of the index finger after the knuckle. The tip of the thumb uses the side of the joint as a support and slam the joint of the thumb that juts out when it is in this position. Hit their temple with this jutting out joint. Just don't let yourself get too carried away with the temple striking and put more pressure on the back of their neck than you should be giving them.

[Knifefighter]

Just don't let yourself get too carried away with the temple striking and put more pressure on the back of their neck than you should be giving them.

Yeah, listen to Ron... I've done both of these too hard a few times and have ended up killing several people. Lost some good training partners this way.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Let them come at you. Usually, when someone is taught to take someone to the ground, they say go for their center of gravity. When they lean forward, wrapping their arm(s) around your waist/abdomin, put your elbow at the base of the back of their neck, just above the spot where the shoulders meet the neck. With the same arm, scoop under their upper arm (if you press down with your right elbow, use your right hand to scoop under the upper end of their right upper arm) and pull up on that arm, while you press down on their neck and drop your weight. Don't do it too quickly because this move will extremely easily break a neck making them paralyzed or dead. Going down on one knee is enough to stop a lot of people, just just don't let your body drop like a sack of potatoes. When doing this move, you have to be controlled. No joke. Doing that move, the average neck can only stand about 140 pounds before it's too much. If a little pain this way doesn't stop them, hammer down with your free hand on them. Or make a fist with your free hand, but put the tip of your thumb against the side of first joint of the index finger after the knuckle. The tip of the thumb uses the side of the joint as a support and slam the joint of the thumb that juts out when it is in this position. Hit their temple with this jutting out joint. Just don't let yourself get too carried away with the temple striking and put more pressure on the back of their neck than you should be giving them.


Seriously? If someone's shooting, you don't push their head down. You try to push it back and make them look up. If you push it down, you do nothing to stop their momentum, and him crashing into you will probably not fare well for you either. If you manage to push his forehead back, so he's looking forward/up, it'll kill most of his momentum and stop him short. Good luck doing this without much practice though.

[Ben Gash]

Yeah, I'd rather be taken down by a double leg than a double ankle pick :eek: Although to be fair you do force the head down when you sprawl.
You're not going to beat anyone if you don't have confidence in what you do, which you appear not to. If you do Kyokushin then I assume you're quite good at high kicks, and have practiced them with heavy contact at high intensity. Therefore there's no reason not to use them per se. In the early MMA period Maurice Smith absolutely kicked the s**t out of a Carlson Gracie black belt (who outweighed him), ending the fight with a roundhouse to the head. Indeed I always find this fight interesting, as it showed many of the "myths" of standup Vs grappiling to actually have some truth. Silveira became scared to even attempt to close on Smith because of the punishment he was taking on the way in.
Part of the problem with the "BJJ ruled against strikers in the early UFCs" truth is it's only half the story. The Gracies continue to represent the top 5% of competitive grapplers, whereas the strikers they fought were a bunch of has-beens and nobodies (with the exception of Orlando Wiet who was a light middleweight and lost to a 250lb guy :rolleyes:), people with obscure titles, big fish in very small ponds and people years past their best. At the time Bart Vale attributed this to the lack of upfront money. Guys like the K1 champions weren't going to risk getting hurt for free.
Smith at the time was a guy who's career had dipped, but was heading up again.
Mirko Filipovic uses high kicks against grapplers all the time, Mark Weir (TKD guy on the Cage Rage circuit) uses high kicks all the time. Indeed he used them to take the fastest KO record at UFC 38.
If you want to see a masterclass on using striking to shut down the shoot then watch Cung Le Vs Tony Frykland.
I would heartily recommend that you study a respected grappling style such as BJJ, Sambo, Catch Wrestling or freestyle wrestling, they're useful skills and fun :D

[Merryprankster]

Seriously? If someone's shooting, you don't push their head down.

Depends.


Let them come at you. Usually, when someone is taught to take someone to the ground, they say go for their center of gravity. When they lean forward, wrapping their arm(s) around your waist/abdomin, put your elbow at the base of the back of their neck, just above the spot where the shoulders meet the neck. With the same arm, scoop under their upper arm (if you press down with your right elbow, use your right hand to scoop under the upper end of their right upper arm) and pull up on that arm, while you press down on their neck and drop your weight. Don't do it too quickly because this move will extremely easily break a neck making them paralyzed or dead. Going down on one knee is enough to stop a lot of people, just just don't let your body drop like a sack of potatoes. When doing this move, you have to be controlled. No joke. Doing that move, the average neck can only stand about 140 pounds before it's too much. If a little pain this way doesn't stop them, hammer down with your free hand on them. Or make a fist with your free hand, but put the tip of your thumb against the side of first joint of the index finger after the knuckle. The tip of the thumb uses the side of the joint as a support and slam the joint of the thumb that juts out when it is in this position. Hit their temple with this jutting out joint. Just don't let yourself get too carried away with the temple striking and put more pressure on the back of their neck than you should be giving them.

I think I just threw up a little in my mouth.

[BlueTravesty]

Nothing can stop a truly dedicated grappler. N-O-T-H-I-N-G.

Not elbows, not knees, not roundhouse kicks, not mace, not a girl scout standing in front of you selling cookies.

The only hope you have is to find those spikes that kill Mega Man in one hit when he falls on them, and place a trap door in front of your opponent. Of course, this will only work if your opponent is wearing blue ceramic armor. Obviously, these are not the usual circumstances you'd find in the Octagon, but if you funnel enough money Dana White's way, you shouldn't have too much trouble getting the necessary arrangements made. Don't thank me though- seeing Matt Hughes flying apart in a shower of bright white spheres is all I need.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Although to be fair you do force the head down when you sprawl.
You're not going to beat anyone if you don't have confidence in what you do, which you appear not to.D


True, but you also force their shoulders and torso down with all your body weight. This dude was saying push his head down with your hands. That's just not going to cut the mustard.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I think you'll be surprised about high kicks, though. When I was learning BJJ, there was a dude there teaching who told me high kicks do have a great use for grapplers, too. If you throw them, you'll keep a striker at distance and focus his energies high. It'll create teh space you want for shooting and takedowns, while he's still defending high. Plus, some BJJ guys are really bad at stand-up. Of course, that's why there's MMA (and most the BJJ guys at that school had some kind of MMA agenda, to be truthful).

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

1980's
"Only another Ninja, can Kill a Ninja"

2007
"Only another BJJ, can defeat BJJ!!"

Even Michael Dudikoff Had to learn BJJ.

[YiLiQuan1]

At first, I thought grappling/groundfighting/BJJ-style jujutsu was total crap, easily defended against, etc. All the standard arguments. Then I trained with a friend, a judo 3rd dan who also has extensive BJJ experience. Even though he has, quite literally, a genuine fear of getting hit whatsoever, he was never in any danger of that. Once he got his hands on me, I was done.

I had no ground skills to speak of. Once he achieved a dominant body position, I was his toy. There was absolutely nothing that my 18+ years of stand-up training could do.

Had he not been as close a friend as he was, he'd have eaten me for breakfast and still had room for more toast...

So, I started to learn. I started learning what he had to teach, I started pursuing groundfighting skills, and am going to pursue doing just that when I get back from Iraq.

While in Army Combatives training, I realized that once I knew the same groundwork that my compatriots knew, I could relatively easily neutralize their "ground game" which allowed the now 22+ years of stand-up training to integrate into my overall strategy.

I'm not an expert by any means, but I've gone up against folks who have similar levels of ground skill as I do, and with that I'm one up on them for the additional training. Why people continue to search within their own systems for non-existant material is a mystery...

Go take a class or twelve. Learn their game, then use it against them. Learning something new doesn't mean abandoning what you've done to that point and never pursuing it again. The human brain has no limit to its capacity... Learn as much, and from as many, as you can. That's how you win.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Actually, most Chinese systems have all the tools needed to not be taken down. Heck, movement representing a Sprawl is in one of my Tai Tzu forms. Tai Chi is especially good at keeping a dominate position, and keeping an opponent off balance.

What TCMA does not have is all that extensive ground fighting stuff. TCMA's ground work is very simple and mostly types of ground and pound or stomps done in such a way as to keep you with one leg standing so you have instant mobility should a second attacker move in. That is not going to help you if someone takes you off your feet though.

[Shaolin Wookie]

REally, though, is BJJ that much different than CMA? Sure, you do it on the ground. But the traingle choke that I do with my forearm from the front (shooting forward under the jab), is the exact same thing a BJJ guy does with his legs. The difference is body position, standing or on the ground. But it's the same exact method of issuing a choke and getting leverage/power.

I think most BJJ guys could take a kungfu guy, b/c the latter has very little expeirence on the ground, and generally panics and scrambles little while the BJJ guy takes advantage of it. Also, BJJ wins in a sparring session, b/c the gloves soften the blows, and the BJJ guy doesn't have to worry as much about taking so much damage while standing.....plus, kung fu guys tend to be tentative in really putting the hurt on a sporting opponent. Not all, but many do.

[monji112000]

Use your high kicks.

Throw them from a low horse stance.

Then elbow them as they come in.

If that doesn't work, you can lookup some Wing Chun anti grappling on You Tube... it is very effective for keeping them away.

what if he uses anti-anti-grappling? Then you are in trouble.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=fRbnvGDyPKI
Why not just stab him when he come in its more practical?

I would not join a BJJ school. Visit a MMA a school, learn some basic wrestling and clinching.

Actually, most Chinese systems have all the tools needed to not be taken down. Heck, movement representing a Sprawl is in one of my Tai Tzu forms. Tai Chi is especially good at keeping a dominate position, and keeping an opponent off balance.
sprawl? I have seen a half sprawl by some kung fu people that seemed to work if you time it correctly..but a full sprawl.. It uses some basic Kung Fu ideas like redirecting force, and structure but thats only general ideas.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think most BJJ guys could take a kungfu guy, b/c the latter has very little expeirence on the ground, and generally panics and scrambles little while the BJJ guy takes advantage of it. Also, BJJ wins in a sparring session, b/c the gloves soften the blows, and the BJJ guy doesn't have to worry as much about taking so much damage while standing.....plus, kung fu guys tend to be tentative in really putting the hurt on a sporting opponent. Not all, but many do.

Reply]
If the Kung Fu guy has good takedown avoidance skills, he's going to win because BJJ has almost zero striking abilities. Competitive TCMA guys will do better than non.


sprawl? I have seen a half sprawl by some kung fu people that seemed to work if you time it correctly..but a full sprawl.. It uses some basic Kung Fu ideas like redirecting force, and structure but thats only general ideas.

Reply]
In the form it is done as a half sprawl because the form player needs to stay on his feet to do the next move. It's a half sprawl in the form, for the continuity of the form itself.

But each move in the form really represents a small family of moves. You have a direct application of the exact move itself, AND you have a variety of applications for variations of the exact move performed, and a full sprawl is really a minor variation of a half sprawl.

The thing is, a sprawl used like BJJ does, really goes against main stream TCMA thinking because you go down with the opponent. TCMA prefers to down the opponent while you stay up, or sink to a crouching posture to finish them with heavy strikes, or even stomp and kick them when down. TCMA does not want to go down with them and fight there. It wants to get back to it's feet ASAP, and finish with strikes from a position that keeps him mobile in case of a second attacker.

Going down with them fully, like a sprawl does is not a desirable thing, and is done only if forced to. Even then the goal is to get back to your feet as quickly as possible, not stay down and grapple. So you will find Kung Fu guys with the tools to stay on thier feet, but not the tools to deal with BJJ if forced down to fight on the ground.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I think most BJJ guys could take a kungfu guy, b/c the latter has very little expeirence on the ground, and generally panics and scrambles little while the BJJ guy takes advantage of it. Also, BJJ wins in a sparring session, b/c the gloves soften the blows, and the BJJ guy doesn't have to worry as much about taking so much damage while standing.....plus, kung fu guys tend to be tentative in really putting the hurt on a sporting opponent. Not all, but many do.

Reply]
If the Kung Fu guy has good takedown avoidance skills, he's going to win because BJJ has almost zero striking abilities. Competitive TCMA guys will do better than non.

Most don't have good takedown avoidance, b/c the people who do it are other kungfu guys with crappy takedown skills. The MMA guys are generally correct on this issue. I've seen great takedowns at my kungfu school, but nothing as fluid and with as smooth transitions in troubleshooting the shoot as I did when I was taking BJJ.

[YiLiQuan1]

I must respectfully disagree...

Though there are similar movements contained in forms and drills, they are not the same. Were they the same, the argument would be nonexistant... Those movements would be known for the alleged anti-grappling techniques they are claimed to be, versus the current situation of a knee-jerk "we do TOO have grappling stuff!" arguments provided in most circumstances.

Once someone has grappling/groundfighting training from a legitimate method, they can see things elsewhere that might equate to a grappling/groundfighting corollary; that doesn't mean that's what that movement really is/was meant to be. Just because you can see it, doesn't imply that's what the forms' creators intended it to be.

Further, I suspect most of the "I can TOO out-grapple you with my XXX fu!" banner wavers have never really gone up against, even in friendly training, someone that possesses more than beginner's knowledge in grappling. Otherwise, some of the idiot responses found elsewhere on the internet never would have been posted...

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Most don't have good takedown avoidance, b/c the people who do it are other kungfu guys with crappy takedown skills. The MMA guys are generally correct on this issue. I've seen great takedowns at my kungfu school, but nothing as fluid and with as smooth transitions in troubleshooting the shoot as I did when I was taking BJJ.

Reply]
That is becasue they don't work them, as the focus has been striking for so long. All the tools ARE there, you just need to develop them.

You are right, the quality of the takedowns is not there either, and that must be addressed too. Again, the tools are there, but just not worked enough to be on the same level as a BJJ school.

The problem has to do with Kung Fu teachers focusing on only half thier arsenal for so long that the other half has become rusty. BJJ has the same problem with thier striking.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Most don't have good takedown avoidance, b/c the people who do it are other kungfu guys with crappy takedown skills. The MMA guys are generally correct on this issue. I've seen great takedowns at my kungfu school, but nothing as fluid and with as smooth transitions in troubleshooting the shoot as I did when I was taking BJJ.

Reply]
BJJ has the same problem with thier striking.

That's because there isn't any.....LOL. The whole controversy is one I settled very simply. I looked at my kung fu training and said: hey, I'll get some striking, some weapons, some grappling, some throwing, but I'll never be the best at any one of them, so much as a purist striker, grappler, thrower, or a guy who works with primarily one weapon (like escrima and kali with just sticks and knives). But I was fine with that. But even within all that, I know there's certain things I focus on more (striking, staff) than I do others, and will be better at them.

I could pick up a lead pipe in a street fight and feel comfortable with it, b/c that kind of varied training leaves me pretty adaptable to circumstances.

[Ben Gash]

I don't know, TCMA aren't that different to classical Jujitsu, and Judo grew from those techniques, and BJJ grew from there.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Though there are similar movements contained in forms and drills, they are not the same. Were they the same, the argument would be nonexistant... Those movements would be known for the alleged anti-grappling techniques they are claimed to be, versus the current situation of a knee-jerk "we do TOO have grappling stuff!" arguments provided in most circumstances.

Reply]
That is just it, they ARE there. You see moves right from common forms used all the time In San Shou. Often, they are direct apps of the form done exactly as the from is performed. The problem here is San Shou guys don't really feel the need to compete MMA becasue they have quality, high level competitions to fight in already, with superior striking to UFC. Plus San Shou has throws, take downs and everything else but Ground wrestling.

Since they are looking for high level striking competitors to fight against, going to UFC is not desirable, so the MMA nut riders do not see all the anti grappling in action.

[Shaolin Wookie]

We should all just study iron crotch and train like they did in Bloodsport. Then, when they shoot, we just drop into full splits and let them KO themselves on our iron crotches.

[xcakid]

Dedicated Shuia Chiao and Chin Na practioner that competes in SanDa should do fairly well with a BJJ practitioner. Got anyone of those around? I myself is severely lacking in Shuia Chiao, not even sure if I am spelling that correctly.

I have a friend that take BJJ. After 6 or so beers we usually end up sparring. I put a good whipping on him standing up. Last time we sparred at my apts pool area, I keep dropping him with a round kick to the ribs everytime he came in to shoot. He is also prone to sweeps if I excute them fast enough. When he shoots in, I always try to do a rear legged 360 sweep. Most time I am fast enough and it drops him. Sometimes, I get pinned on the ground. Stand up I pretty much can pick and choose what I want to do. However, once he gets a hold of me, I am basically going down. I can get out of most of the submission holds due to my chin na training. But he can still get hits on me at will on the ground. I have difficulty taking him down in a clinch, but then again I am really hesitant to do so. I make him fight my way for as long as I can for the most part. I think with some shuia chiao training, I could fair well against him. He's been in BJJ for 3yrs. and was in wrestling in HS and college.

One on One competition style fighting, BJJ is pretty difficult to defeat.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

If you cross train in BJJ you will be able to defend from the ground, you can use your Kung Fu for your stand up.

[xcakid]

If you cross train in BJJ you will be able to defend from the ground, you can use your Kung Fu for your stand up.

I am somewhat of a purist. I will study Shiua Chiao first before I give in to this trend of BJJ. Unless of course its a womens class, then I am all for it. :D

Somehow being in kissing proximity of a sweaty guy named Bob and "mounting" him just does not sound like MA to me. More like gay porn. With all the grunting and red faced efforts. No thanks.

Doesn't sound macho on the streets either. Can you imagine threatening a guy. "I gonna mount you and beat you to a pulp" In some neighborhoods that's a romantic evening for a guy and his life partner.

[unkokusai]

All the tools ARE there, you just need to develop them.


Oh brother, here we go again... :rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

Let them come at you. Usually, when someone is taught to take someone to the ground, they say go for their center of gravity. When they lean forward, wrapping their arm(s) around your waist/abdomin, put your elbow at the base of the back of their neck, just above the spot where the shoulders meet the neck. With the same arm, scoop under their upper arm (if you press down with your right elbow, use your right hand to scoop under the upper end of their right upper arm) and pull up on that arm, while you press down on their neck and drop your weight. Don't do it too quickly because this move will extremely easily break a neck making them paralyzed or dead. Going down on one knee is enough to stop a lot of people, just just don't let your body drop like a sack of potatoes. When doing this move, you have to be controlled. No joke. Doing that move, the average neck can only stand about 140 pounds before it's too much. If a little pain this way doesn't stop them, hammer down with your free hand on them. Or make a fist with your free hand, but put the tip of your thumb against the side of first joint of the index finger after the knuckle. The tip of the thumb uses the side of the joint as a support and slam the joint of the thumb that juts out when it is in this position. Hit their temple with this jutting out joint. Just don't let yourself get too carried away with the temple striking and put more pressure on the back of their neck than you should be giving them.


LOL! Hilarious! You should have a show in Vegas!

[unkokusai]

I am somewhat of a purist. I will study Shiua Chiao first before I give in to this trend of BJJ. Unless of course its a womens class, then I am all for it. :D

Somehow being in kissing proximity of a sweaty guy named Bob and "mounting" him just does not sound like MA to me. More like gay porn. With all the grunting and red faced efforts. No thanks.

Doesn't sound macho on the streets either. Can you imagine threatening a guy. "I gonna mount you and beat you to a pulp" In some neighborhoods that's a romantic evening for a guy and his life partner.


I hate to break the news to you, but it sounds like you are a closet ****sexual. That's your business, but if you let fear of your latent deviancy keep you from gaining essential skills you'll have no one to blame but yourself when you get your ass kicked. But maybe you're into that sort of thing, like I said that's your business.

[unkokusai]

Yeah, I'd rather be taken down by a double leg than a double ankle pick :eek:



Why is that?

[xcakid]

I hate to break the news to you, but it sounds like you are a closet ****sexual. That's your business, but if you let fear of your latent deviancy keep you from gaining essential skills you'll have no one to blame but yourself when you get your ass kicked. But maybe you're into that sort of thing, like I said that's your business.

Rather kicked than penetrated I always say. :p

[unkokusai]

You seem to spend a lot of time thinking about such things...

[xcakid]

You seem to spend a lot of time thinking about such things...

Ya know I am watching TV right now. Show called Tapout on VS. Theres two guys hugging each other in speedo's. I can't help it. Its all over the place. Sad state of affairs we are in with all these reality TV. :D

[Ben Gash]

Why is that?
It hurts less, your head is at less risk, you've got more chance of guarding afterwards....

[Black Jack II]

When is gracie Jujitsu a person??

Is there a floating halo over people's heads which dictates the style's they have studied and what there experiance is right before a fight??

Just learn that fighting range, learn grappling.

[unkokusai]

Ya know I am watching TV right now. Show called Tapout on VS. Theres two guys hugging each other in speedo's. I can't help it.



Clearly you can't help what you are, but try to keep it to yourself, ok?

[unkokusai]

It hurts less, your head is at less risk, you've got more chance of guarding afterwards....



How do you figure?

[RonH]

Seriously? If someone's shooting, you don't push their head down. You try to push it back and make them look up. If you push it down, you do nothing to stop their momentum, and him crashing into you will probably not fare well for you either. If you manage to push his forehead back, so he's looking forward/up, it'll kill most of his momentum and stop him short. Good luck doing this without much practice though.

Seriously. If I were to do that move, my only intention is to use the momentum they are using, so that I make them run into the ground and hurt themselves.

LOL! Hilarious! You should have a show in Vegas!

And what is it that I said that was funny?

[Water Dragon]

Just learn that fighting range, learn grappling.

or not. People make too big a deal over this stuff. Train what you want, have fun. It's not like we're going out getting mugged or attacked by gangs all the time. I lived in one of the worst areas of the country for about ten years. I used this stuff once, choked a drunk guy out in a bar. That's it. Knowing grappling or not isn't gonna get you out of trouble. Situational awareness is what gets you out of trouble.

[Knifefighter]

Yeah, I'd rather be taken down by a double leg than a double ankle pick :eek:

There's no such thing as a double ankle pick.

[lkfmdc]

There's no such thing as a double ankle pick.

that's correct, it is usually the single ankle pick, but if you manage to study a certain Shaolin system, you will learn the deadly triple ankle pick! :eek:

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

or not. People make too big a deal over this stuff. Train what you want, have fun. It's not like we're going out getting mugged or attacked by gangs all the time. I lived in one of the worst areas of the country for about ten years. I used this stuff once, choked a drunk guy out in a bar. That's it. Knowing grappling or not isn't gonna get you out of trouble. Situational awareness is what gets you out of trouble.

Reply]
Well said.

[rogue]

that's correct, it is usually the single ankle pick, but if you manage to study a certain Shaolin system, you will learn the deadly triple ankle pick! :eek:

Watchit buddy, that aint no third ankle that you're picking.:eek: If ya know what I mean.

[Black Jack II]

or not. People make too big a deal over this stuff. Train what you want, have fun

The last six words are money.

Situational awareness is what gets you out of trouble.

This is money as well. It should be anyone's first freakin mantra.

As for grappling, if we are talking in the CONTEXT of this thread, as in trying to defeat a bjj guy, then yeah I stand by my statement.

[rogue]

or not. People make too big a deal over this stuff. Train what you want, have fun. It's not like we're going out getting mugged or attacked by gangs all the time. I lived in one of the worst areas of the country for about ten years. I used this stuff once, choked a drunk guy out in a bar. That's it. Knowing grappling or not isn't gonna get you out of trouble. Situational awareness is what gets you out of trouble.

Word my brother. Situational awareness and not saying while visiting a BJJ school, "Hey, that looks so gay!" :D

Really, most of this training is because we get some kind of strange enjoyment out of it.

[unkokusai]

And what is it that I said that was funny?

Oh, I thought you were just kidding. Now, what's funny about it is that you apparently believe it.


Yow... :rolleyes:

[Ben Gash]

I know a Judo guy who does a double ankle. I suppose really we're splitting hairs as to what the difference between an ankle and a REALLY low leg is.

[Nick Forrer]

There's no such thing as a double ankle pick.

what do you call a double leg where you grab the heels and not the hamstrings. Just a low double leg? I think thats what he means.

[unkokusai]

I know a Judo guy who does a double ankle. I suppose really we're splitting hairs as to what the difference between an ankle and a REALLY low leg is.

Didn't notice the double part. What exactly is a double ankle pick?

[RonH]

Oh, I thought you were just kidding. Now, what's funny about it is that you apparently believe it.

Yow... :rolleyes:

So, the concept of adding a bendable neck for crashtest dummies for testing car safety, airplane safety...all these people that do research on just how much stress the neck can take before damage is suffered to engineer safer car air bags and the like are just...insane?

[Knifefighter]

So, the concept of adding a bendable neck for crashtest dummies for testing car safety, airplane safety...all these people that do research on just how much stress the neck can take before damage is suffered to engineer safer car air bags and the like are just...insane?

What is insane are the theoretical non-fighters who try to extrapolate that data to something as stupid as that ineffective leverage type move to the neck that you described.

That data would be much more applicable to striking to the head than it would be to neck manipulations.

BTW, grapplers regularly use moves (i.e. 1/4 nelson, crucifix, etc) that are much more effective and put much more pressure on the neck than that dumba$$ move that you described without breaking each others necks.

[unkokusai]

Yeah, good luck with your 'theories' kid...

[RonH]

What is insane are the theoretical non-fighters who try to extrapolate that data to something as stupid as that ineffective leverage type move to the neck that you described.

No, what I described was a move taught in eskrima. The part where I mention the bendable neck for crash test dummies was for a reference outside of martial arts where there are studies done on just how much stress the neck can take.

Your accusation of me being a theoretical nonfighter is without evidence. It'd be best if you didn't do such things in the future because all it does is make your argument silly when you use it as a basis.

That data would be much more applicable to striking to the head than it would be to neck manipulations.

Only the part about temple striking, which isn't required with the move I described. I added it as an example of what one might do after applying pressure to the back of the neck.

BTW, grapplers regularly use moves (i.e. 1/4 nelson, crucifix, etc) that are much more effective and put much more pressure on the neck without breaking each others necks.

Not the issue. The issue was how. I gave one example of how. It doesn't matter what grapplers regularly use or not.

[unkokusai]

It doesn't matter what grapplers regularly use or not.



Oh brother... :rolleyes:

I wonder why that might be?

[Knifefighter]

No, what I described was a move taught in eskrima.

Yeah, I know... I've been doing FMA for 30 years... lots of B.S in those arts with regards to grappling.

The part where I mention the bendable neck for crash test dummies was for a reference outside of martial arts where there are studies done on just how much stress the neck can take.

The stresses they measure are whiplash type effects of the crashes, not direct pressure to the neck.

Your accusation of me being a theoretical nonfighter is without evidence.

You described a move that, in your own post, you said could not be done in a full force manner without killing someone. Unless you have used that move to kill someone, that is completley theoretical.

BTW, I have tried that move full force many times in live sessions. Not only does it not break people's necks, it's not a very good technique, as it is too easy for the opponent to just sit through and come around to your back.

[Knifefighter]

Not the issue. The issue was how. I gave one example of how. It doesn't matter what grapplers regularly use or not.

In addition to describing theoretical moves that you do not do full force, here is more evidence of being a theoretical non-fighter. People who actually go live know that what other people are doing full force in live settings is very germaine to what works and what doesn't work.

Paying attention to what other people are doing might help you to realize that you could change the move you were describing into a much more functional one by turning it into a 1/4 nelson or crucifix, giving the opportunity to much better control the opponent.

[RonH]

Oh brother... :rolleyes:

I wonder why that might be?

Because it is what's dictated to by the opening post. Let's examin it:

'i can not figure out how a to keep a gracie jujitsu person from closing the gap and taking a kyukoshin karate (me) to the ground. or how to defeat him. any help please ? oh, i never use high kicks,but rather low and close.'

FANWOO is unsure of how to keep a gracie jujitsu guy from closing the gap between them when they fight. He says what he knows is Kyukoshin Karate and doesn't know how to defeat omeone that knows GJ. He doesn't ask for a method of a particular style, his own or any other. Leaving that option open, I gave him one. That is why it didn't matter. Regardless of whether I gave an example of a grappling move or not, a specific request for a grappling move wasn't asked for. I could have easily said a snap knee to the face, as the gracie lunges for the waist.

Yeah, I know... I've been doing FMA for 30 years... lots of B.S in those arts with regards to grappling.

And yet, pushing down hard on the neck hurts like hell.

The stresses they measure are whiplash type effects of the crashes, not direct pressure to the neck.

And they are still studying how much the neck can take, as I said.

You described a move that, in your own post, you said could not be done in a full force manner without killing someone.

No, you run the risk of killing if you are not careful. How the bone(s) in the neck are broken determines what happens to the target. You can live with a broken neck. It might just be broken, there could be damage to the nerves, causing a varying degree of paralysis. It can mean death, too, but it isn't the only outcome.

Unless you have used that move to kill someone, that is completley theoretical.

No, it isn't. It isn't required that you go full force on every blasted thing you do. I said you had to be careful, otherwise you execute the move differently than what you want to do.

Taking that thinking to its ultimate expression, I've never seen someone in a spacesuit die from being thrown into the sun. That doesn't mean that that idea is purely theoretical. It doesn't mean you can't figure out that someone would die, if they were thrown into the sun.

BTW, I have tried that move full force many times in live sessions. Not only does it not break people's necks, it's not a very good technique, as it is too easy for the opponent to just sit through and come around to your back.

And this is why I mention what you do after you have bent their head down and locked their arm up.

[lkfmdc]

pushing down hard on the neck hurts like hell.



I wasn't aware that "hurts like hell" = capable of killing someone :rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

I think the 'H' in RonH stands for 'Hypothetical,' 'Hysterical,' or 'Hilarious'

[sanjuro_ronin]

i can not figure out how a to keep a gracie jujitsu person from closing the gap and taking a kyukoshin karate (me) to the ground. or how to defeat him. any help please ? oh, i never use high kicks,but rather low and close.

I am a kyokushin 2nd dan and a Judo Shodan.
And I took a years worth of private lessons in BJJ with a 3rd degree BB.

My advice?

Learn BJJ and how to apply and defend against it with what you have.

[cjurakpt]

Use your high kicks.

Throw them from a low horse stance.

Then elbow them as they come in.

If that doesn't work, you can lookup some Wing Chun anti grappling on You Tube... it is very effective for keeping them away.

Those mere external systems don't work, you need INTERNAL

Learn Tai Chi, the push hands will deflect them, then use your ba gua grappling

wrong sirs, wrong!

qi ball them from 20 paces

or better yet, post on forums that you know they read regullarly and lace your posts with subliminal negative energy patterns, and when they read your posts they will start to feel really lousy and eventually their organs will implode

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

or better yet, post on forums that you know they read regullarly and lace your posts with subliminal negative energy patterns, and when they read your posts they will start to feel really lousy and eventually their organs will implode

Reply]
Actually, you are wrong, their internal organs spontaneously combust.
Implosion happens when external power is directly, and physically applied, like with the heart exploding death touch...which actually Implodes the heart.

When you are using pure Qi energy, especially over a distance, spontaneous combustion is the result.

The fact that you do not know this shows that you are an inexperience hypothisist who has never actually faught.

[cjurakpt]

Let them come at you.
yeah, let them really get some momentum going - don't try to use any sort of evasive footwork

Usually, when someone is taught to take someone to the ground, they say go for their center of gravity. When they lean forward,
someone who knows how to shoot correctly will not "lean forward" - they will drop their body by bending their knees, and if they do "lean forward", it's not going to be at 90 deg. to their pelvis - they will still maintain structure and relative alignment

wrapping their arm(s) around your waist/abdomin, put your elbow at the base of the back of their neck,
and therefore, because they are not "leaning forward", the back of their neck will not be exposed (of course, they might shoot incorrectly, but that's not the issue)

just above the spot where the shoulders meet the neck. With the same arm, scoop under their upper arm
what does "upper" mean? and what if both their arms are at equal height?

(if you press down with your right elbow, use your right hand to scoop under the upper end of their right upper arm) and pull up on that arm, while you press down on their neck and drop your weight.
what sort of footwork do you need to do to position yourself for this correctly? and what do you do if they change the arms so that now the left one is the "upper" arm

Don't do it too quickly because this move will extremely easily break a neck making them paralyzed or dead.
how exactly will it do this? what direction is the force going, what vertebra is it targeting specifically and what part of the vertebra will it frature? breaking someone's neck when the neuromuscular system is primed into a generalized tonic phase is unlikely - someone going in for a shoot is going to be expecting a counter and therefore will tense whatever body parts you try to manuever; and again, how do you know this will could break a neck "easily"? have you ever tried it, or seen it done? (your "evidence" about 140 lbs of force, if it is correct, is still specific to a whiplash / MVA-related injury, the mechanics of which are completely different than what you propose)

Going down on one knee is enough to stop a lot of people, just just don't let your body drop like a sack of potatoes. When doing this move, you have to be controlled. No joke. Doing that move, the average neck can only stand about 140 pounds before it's too much. If a little pain this way doesn't stop them, hammer down with your free hand on them. Or make a fist with your free hand, but put the tip of your thumb against the side of first joint of the index finger after the knuckle. The tip of the thumb uses the side of the joint as a support and slam the joint of the thumb that juts out when it is in this position. Hit their temple with this jutting out joint. Just don't let yourself get too carried away with the temple striking and put more pressure on the back of their neck than you should be giving them.[/QUOTE]
have you ever hit someone in the side of the head with this before? do you know what happens to the "temple" (a very imprecise term) when someone clenches their jaw, which typically happens at the same time they re resisting having their neck manipulated?

[Fighting_Lad]

I agree with "cjurakpt" - using their momentum is essential to overcoming their style of fighting.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I agree with "cjurakpt" - using their momentum is essential to overcoming their style of fighting

Reply]
Tai Chi!

[bodhitree]

I agree with "cjurakpt" - using their momentum is essential to overcoming their style of fighting

Reply]
Tai Chi!


In dreamland:rolleyes:

[cjurakpt]

I agree with "cjurakpt" - using their momentum is essential to overcoming their style of fighting.

ummm - where did I advocate this?

the idea of "using" someone's momentum implies that once you start to use their momentum that they are unable to do anything and simply have to go along with it; this is absurd - any trained fighter, or athlete in general, is going to pick up on when their momentum is being augmented, and will counter that - do you really think that if someone shoots that they are not anticipating some sort of redirection, and that they don't train to counter that?

this is a myth bourne out of too many compliant aikido and tai chi demos...

[Nick Forrer]

The way to use someones momentum when they shoot is to sprawl first (resist) and as they drive forward sit down (yield) and insert your hook (shin) on their inner thigh. Then kick up to sweep them over. Its a kind of elevator sweep. I used it in competition last year.

[David Jamieson]

Go for the flying Butt pliers and finish him with multple noogies and threat spits as you hold him down.

[1bad65]

Maybe you could do what the first guy to beat a BJJ Black Belt in MMA in the US did, Maurice Smith. He was a world champion kickboxer in the late 80s-early 90s. He was challenged by Royce Gracie. He looked at tape of Royce and declined, but he took up cross training wrestling and submission fighting with Frank Shamrock and T Kohsaka. About 2 years later, he asked Royce to fight, but Royce declined. So he went to Battlecade Extreme Fighting where he KO'd 'Conan' Silviera, a BJJ BB from Brazil, with a beautiful head kick.

[lkfmdc]

here is a good strategy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kbdhXmJtjQ

use the triple decker ****** wrecker, no one has an answer for the triple decker ****** wrecker

[RonH]

I wasn't aware that "hurts like hell" = capable of killing someone :rolleyes:

Given that is nowhere close to what I have said or even implied, if you would actually show the effort to take the time and pay attention to what I have said, you would see how truly ridiculous such an accusation that is. Such errors in the future should be avoided to maintain credibility for your arguments, regardless of the topic.

I think the 'H' in RonH stands for 'Hypothetical,' 'Hysterical,' or 'Hilarious'

Such a remark shows how petty you are trying to be in 'shouting' (figuratively) down my position just because you don't like it.

yeah, let them really get some momentum going - don't try to use any sort of evasive footwork

Evasive footwork isn't always required.

someone who knows how to shoot correctly will not "lean forward" - they will drop their body by bending their knees, and if they do "lean forward", it's not going to be at 90 deg. to their pelvis - they will still maintain structure and relative alignment

and therefore, because they are not "leaning forward", the back of their neck will not be exposed (of course, they might shoot incorrectly, but that's not the issue

And, in that instance, you grab their head with one hand and pull it down, so you can put pressure on the back of their neck with the elbow of the opposing arm.

what does "upper" mean? and what if both their arms are at equal height?

Are you kidding? The upper arm. The spot on the higher limbs where the triceps and biceps are. Isn't it obvious?

what sort of footwork do you need to do to position yourself for this correctly?

If you're squared off with the opponent, you bring one foot back to use it to not only brace yourself and use the rebound pressure your foot is getting by pushing against the ground, but also to help push down the elbow of the opposite side of your body, the one going against the target's neck. How far it moves back depends on just how you want to press down on their neck, but often, it is tought and done with the foot, so that you have turned about 90 degrees to one side. There are other factors that determine just where the soon to be rear foot will be placed.

how exactly will it do this?

By using a combination of their momemtum that they've gained by coming at you, gravity on them when you push them down, gravity on you when you lower you body, the speed with which you drop your body, as well as where and in what direction you apply pressure to the back of their neck. In the move, the hand of the arm that isn't connected to the elbow pressing on the back of the neck will be holding the arm that will be scooped under by the hand of the arm that has the elbow that's pressing on the back of the target's neck.

what direction is the force going

There are different directions, depending on which force you're talking about. Gravity of the attacker, the direction you apply pressure to the back of the neck, etc.

what vertebra is it targeting specifically and what part of the vertebra will it frature?

That would depend on the placement of the elbow and in what direction you are applying the pressure, which can be in a straight line or in a circular path, using the flexibility of the neck to assist in that path taking.

and again, how do you know this will could break a neck "easily"?

For starters, the 'mini-leverage' effect, by bending the neck, so the bones, are pulled apart. Think of when you take a slinky in its cylindrical form and them, turn the 2 ends over, so that they are resting on a flat surface. In this analogy, each ring represents a neck bone. There is an increase in the distance between the top edges of the 2 rings at the top of the curved slinky.

Depending on just how the move is done, soft tissue tears can result from an overextension of the range of motion of the neck. Not only can there be damage to the muscles, but also the nerve tissue, which can result in paralysis, depending on just which nerves are damaged.

There is also the fact that adult bone is not like a child's. When you see x-rays of battered children, you'll notice that their bones are sometimes bent. This is because the catellige hasn't turned to bone, even though it seems like they have solid bones. There is more hard bone tissue proportionally in an adult bone than a child's, which means that it is more easily broken. It is the same reason why a weeping willow can survive stronger winds any other tree of similar thickness would break under. It bends, as the wind hits it, allowing the force of the wind to move it along.

have you ever tried it, or seen it done? (your "evidence" about 140 lbs of force, if it is correct, is still specific to a whiplash / MVA-related injury, the mechanics of which are completely different than what you propose)

If you mean tried to practice the move, yes. To understand what is involved, but without the intention of trying to hurt the other guy. Some will say to give your sparring partner pain, so they know what's going on. I don't do that. If you mean to try it to kill someone, I haven't done that.

have you ever hit someone in the side of the head with this before? do you know what happens to the "temple" (a very imprecise term) when someone clenches their jaw, which typically happens at the same time they re resisting having their neck manipulated?

Yes and yes.

[unkokusai]

If you mean tried to practice the move, yes. .



Against whom?

[lkfmdc]

People like RonH are a joke, pure and simple, never fight for real, sput their "theory" and don't listen to those who have been there, done that

Here's an attached pic, WKA amateur rules strangely allow downward elbows.... guess what? They did NOTHING....

[lkfmdc]

sorry, see attached pic

[RonH]

Against whom?

Sparring partners.

People like RonH are a joke, pure and simple, never fight for real, sput their "theory" and don't listen to those who have been there, done that

Here's an attached pic, WKA amateur rules strangely allow downward elbows.... guess what? They did NOTHING....

So, you've switched from ignoring my posts to complaining about them. Really, you do need to pick what you're gonna do. Either stay in the peanut gallery, moaning and complaining without producing any substantial counterargument or you're gonna step up to the plate.

I'll start it off and we'll see what you do.

My stance comes down to the basic idea that it isn't the technique, but the user, which determines whether or not a move is effective.

There it is. For you to actually step up to the plate, it'd required explaining why what I've said so far is incorrect. This is for any of the medicine, any of the physics, even the idea that it is the user and not the technique itself, as the basis for the stance I have presented.

Last time, I wrote to you, I did say that I wouldn't believe that you could have been mature without prompting and you showed you didn't want to be. You made it clear you were ignorning me. I'm a betting man. I'd lay odds that you can't do it with me.

[lkfmdc]

My stance comes down to the basic idea that it isn't the technique, but the user, which determines whether or not a move is effective.



Like I said, you're a JOKE, theoretical fighting :rolleyes:

I just showed you that your deadly elbow strikes actually do NOTHING under real conditions, I guess that leaves you with your CHI BLASTS as "plan B"

People like you are disgusting, they are the reaon no one takes CMA seriously anymore.....

I told another moron that as an idiot he was a master, I guess you are his si-gung

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I allways thought the elbow idea didn't make sense. You are trying to stop a powerful incoming, charging force by dropping an elbow? by the time you are close enough to do it the attacker will have your center and thus negate your ability to generate any effective power with an elbow strike. You would have to have 8 foot long arms to make it work...so you can hit them, before they take your center.

If it's clear to even a Qi Gong/ Forms guy like me, how is it so hard for others to understand?

[TenTigers]

the reason deadly downward elbows don't seem to work against someone shooting, is simple. From that position, you are not throwing an elbow at all,(you only think you are) what you are doing is striking (or attempting to) with the bottom of your upper arm-or yuor tricep. This does absolutely nothing. It is extremely difficult, I'd venture to say impossible to do the downward elbow strike with any effectiveness against the shoot.
For me, I sprawl, and get my hooks under, rather than trying to go from on top.
-but I'm not a great rassler, so I differ to the guys with the experience.

[1bad65]

My stance comes down to the basic idea that it isn't the technique, but the user, which determines whether or not a move is effective.

Like it or not, this does show that you don't train 'alive'. Alot of techniques work in theory and just do not work in practice.


If it's clear to even a Qi Gong/ Forms guy like me, how is it so hard for others to understand?

Denial is a powerful thing.

[1bad65]

For me, I sprawl, and get my hooks under, rather than trying to go from on top.
-but I'm not a great rassler, so I differ to the guys with the experience.

I'd be willing to bet you are alot harder to take down than the deadly elbow strike types.

[RonH]

Like I said, you're a JOKE, theoretical fighting :rolleyes:

I just showed you that your deadly elbow strikes actually do NOTHING under real conditions, I guess that leaves you with your CHI BLASTS as "plan B"

People like you are disgusting, they are the reaon no one takes CMA seriously anymore.....

I told another moron that as an idiot he was a master, I guess you are his si-gung

Oh, lord. Look, who cares about some tournament crap about elbows. I'm speaking of technique application. You've had plenty of chances to show what I've said is wrong (the medicine or the physics), but since you don't want to do that, I have no choice but to declare me the winner (for lack of a better word) because you lost via forfeiting.

Because you are unable to willingly conduct yourself in the proper manner, I am done speaking to you about this topic.

[lkfmdc]

Oh, lord. Look, who cares about some tournament crap about elbows. I'm speaking of technique application


You are an F-in moron

Let's summarize

YOU: I do my fantasy theoretical technique on compliant training partners who have no grappling training and who don't resist

as opposed to US: who do it on trained fighters in competition (ie REAL resistance) conditions



You've had plenty of chances to show what I've said is wrong



Yes, I've had plenty of opportunities and I've consistently shown you to be the LARP'ing moron you are



I have no choice but to declare me the winner


translation = I live in fantasy land and want to run in the other direction when confronted with reality

Do us all a HUGE favor, do to your local wrestling club, have them shoot in on you, use your "deadly" counter and TAPE IT...

I need the huge laugh

[unkokusai]

wRONgH, you have demonstrated time and time again that you are nothing but a theory-boy who can't muster the sack to admit that your 'imagination' doesn't stack up against the many, many years of real, practical experience telling you that you are wrong. If this is some ego thing, you are picking the wrong argument and you are making yourself look ridiculous. Now, maybe you are happy looking ridiculous, I don't know. Could be your thing, humiliating yourself as some kind of masochistic thrill for you or something...:eek:


:rolleyes:

[RonH]

I allways thought the elbow idea didn't make sense. You are trying to stop a powerful incoming, charging force by dropping an elbow? by the time you are close enough to do it the attacker will have your center and thus negate your ability to generate any effective power with an elbow strike. You would have to have 8 foot long arms to make it work...so you can hit them, before they take your center.

Let them wrap their arms around you, that's fine. If on questioning muscular power, the power is in the muscles of the upper torso, the arm, the shoulder. You can throw in legs and hips, too. If on the question of hip power alone, you can rotate the hip without moving from your position, except for maybe turning your body sideways some. You don't need running starts or spinning all the way around to put a good amount of force behind elbow strikes.

Take sword fighting. It isn't necessary to spin all the way around to get a lot of force behind the sword. I'd advise against it, unless you find yourself sword fighting a group that's circled you. You've got no choice then.

Like it or not, this does show that you don't train 'alive'. Alot of techniques work in theory and just do not work in practice.

On the contrary. I do train that way. And many moves do show capability, if it is used by someone that has trained to use it. If you refer to things that often imped fighting technique use in a typical tournament/street fight, which makes the whole scene look like one big roll around in the dirt in the end, what makes the impossible work is self-control, focus and the ability to think on your feet and several steps forward in time.

[Shaolinlueb]

grab their balls and start rubbing them asking if they like it. most GJJ practioners are ****phobes so that will get them off of you.

or poke them in the eye. they on top mount go for their groin. e.i. fight like a dirtbag. they stick to their rules. lol

[unkokusai]

Are you and RonH related or something? (say, maybe brother/father?)

[SenseiShellie]

grab their balls and start rubbing them asking if they like it. most GJJ practioners are ****phobes so that will get them off of you.

or poke them in the eye. they on top mount go for their groin. e.i. fight like a dirtbag. they stick to their rules. lol

what if you're a girl though? i don't think that's the right approach... ;)

In all honesty, if you want to learn to counter Gracie JJ, then study it. They really do know all their own counters, and will teach you them. I study it and honestly, I'm learning a lot.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Let them wrap their arms around you, that's fine. If on questioning muscular power, the power is in the muscles of the upper torso, the arm, the shoulder. You can throw in legs and hips, too. If on the question of hip power alone, you can rotate the hip without moving from your position, except for maybe turning your body sideways some. You don't need running starts or spinning all the way around to put a good amount of force behind elbow strikes.

Reply]
No, the power is in being able to suddenly sink your weight into the downward elbow strike. In order to do this, you must be aligned properly and rooted enough to drop down on a single point with the whole body. This is something that will be IMPOSSIBLE if you are in the process of being knocked back and off balance.

There is no way you are going to be able to generate enough power to do anything but irritate those guys. Maybe if you have someone with minimal conditioning, and a really low pain threshold, but an MMA guy is going to do nothing more than maybe take not of a momentary amount of inconsequential discomfort as they blast in full force and take you to your zero point.

Also, remember these guys are really good at the set up, and timing. they WON'T Shoot untill they KNOW they have you and there is little you cna do to stop it.

Some sort of sneeze like reaction such as a sprawl, or dropping into a bow stance while leaning over them as they come in is going to neutralize the shoot....and even then, you are going to have to grapple them for a little while to escape and start the fight over again form zero.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

what if you're a girl though? i don't think that's the right approach...

Reply]
Well, you have a number of positions to consider, like Missionary, side spoon or even doggie....

[SenseiShellie]

what if you're a girl though? i don't think that's the right approach...

Reply]
Well, you have a number of positions to consider, like Missionary, side spoon or even doggie....

LOL...nice one!

[RonH]

Reply]
No, the power is in being able to suddenly sink your weight into the downward elbow strike. In order to do this, you must be aligned properly and rooted enough to drop down on a single point with the whole body. This is something that will be IMPOSSIBLE if you are in the process of being knocked back and off balance.

This is why, even though they wrap themselves around you, you still absorb the force of their energy into your body and direct it down. You still maintain your balance, as you're directing their energy downward.

There is no way you are going to be able to generate enough power to do anything but irritate those guys.

The act itself requires little effort from the one being attacked. It isn't necessary to brute force your way to get them to go down.

Maybe if you have someone with minimal conditioning, and a really low pain threshold, but an MMA guy is going to do nothing more than maybe take not of a momentary amount of inconsequential discomfort as they blast in full force and take you to your zero point.

This is why you don't stop with the downward elbow. You follow up with temple strikes, hammer fists or whatever else you're capable of doing in that position to maintain dominance.

Also, remember these guys are really good at the set up, and timing. they WON'T Shoot untill they KNOW they have you and there is little you cna do to stop it.

Faking weakness/acting is always good in studying martial arts.

[unkokusai]

you still absorb the force of their energy into your body and direct it down.


LOL! Ok hopgrasser, why don't you go find a good wrestler (NOT Neal and Bob from the dojo) and ask him to go takedowns with you? You can try your absorbing and directing and let us know how it went.

[Nick Forrer]

This is why, even though they wrap themselves around you, you still absorb the force of their energy into your body and direct it down. You still maintain your balance, as you're directing their energy downward.



The act itself requires little effort from the one being attacked. It isn't necessary to brute force your way to get them to go down.



This is why you don't stop with the downward elbow. You follow up with temple strikes, hammer fists or whatever else you're capable of doing in that position to maintain dominance.



Faking weakness/acting is always good in studying martial arts.


A trolling masterclass - hes even trolling the trolls. Bravo sir, bravo.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

This is why, even though they wrap themselves around you, you still absorb the force of their energy into your body and direct it down. You still maintain your balance, as you're directing their energy downward.

Reply]
If they got your hands around you already, it is too late. If you are sinking into a deep bowstance, you have a chance as it gives a similar energy to a sprawl, and allows you to lean your weight down on top of them but you are still not in a position to drop an effective elbow.

A deep mountian climbing stance might be better if you can turn them off line, but still your objective is to redirect thier force, and that requires you to put your hands on them. Trying to strike in the heat of that moment will just open you up to be taken down as they adjust to your counter.

Remember, these guys are not frik'n Rhino's, they can adjust and redirect too. They develop a body sensitivity similar to Taiji Quan guys, and are really adept at taking YOU off your center as well.

[cjurakpt]

really folks - it's a loosing battle - you can't argue with someone who sees the world the way this guy does; here are some examples of his tenuous grasp of reality in other areas (bold mine):

first off, he fancies himself some sort of "energy healer" who can clear up a lifetime of dysfunction with a few waves of his "qi"
I brought down an emotional barrier composed of 'anxiety energy', which was screwing up the mind of one woman, after having experienced it for most of her life (she was in her early 60s when I brought down the barrier). No physical contact between the two of us. I had made several attempts before to help her, but nothing I was doing could crack that armor. It extended out a good meter at least from any point on or in her body. Then, I was shown something by a friend and I used it to help bring it down. She was still a semi-mean person at times. The anxiety barrier just worsened her symptoms. She's living a much a happier life now.
in fact, he's so good that he can do it without them even knowing about it:
I have also helped people to get their emotions under control...also without phsycal contact or even with their knowledge, just as I had done with the woman I mentioned above with the barrier around her. A little background, private assistance to help them through some rough spots.
but what about more mundane things, say, I don't know, a dislocated finger:
dislocated two fingers last night. Reset,massaged,plastered and splinted, but the tendons on the underside of fingers-that keep them from hyperextending and dislocating are "stretched."
anyone have any good formulas for returning them to normal-tightening, strengthening? I have a tiet sao jow that strengthens bone and tendon, but wondering if anyone has had experience with this.
I'd also suggest keeping the fingers curled up for extended periods of time, but not loosely. There needs to be tension in the muscles. When doing weight training improperly (not stretching, amongst other things) the tendons will tighen up and you'll get the 'can't wipe my own butt' syndrome. It's the same with the fingers. Keep them curled for long lengths of time and they'll tighten up.
yeah, that's a great idea...anyway, not surprisingly, when asked about his training and credentials, the definitive answer he (finally) gave was:
If you desire the specifics, I've had some medical training, but I'm not a doctor, nor am I a med student.
of course, that's ok because:
whether I was a licensed medical doctor is irrelevent when it comes to chi healing. One is not required for the other.
and
Credentials is not the issue. Experience, facts, and logic are.
indeed - when will those show up, I wonder?, well it explains comments like:
I've never come across a time when I thought 'this is too much for my abilities'. You can't go into any situation thinking that.
certainly a very responsible perspective; speaking of responsibility, when quered as to what recourse a patient has if they go to an unlicensed energy healer and experience a negative effect, he offers the following:
There are other extralegal means. They've already gone outside the legal system to have things done to themselves that are not approved by groups, like the FDA or the AMA. There are those energy users that are mercenary types. There's the actual legit websites online that deal with revenge and righting wrongs and stuff. There is ceremonial magick, but it's best if they already have had experience with it. Candle magick is good for beginners. Chaos/sigil magick is, too, but these 3 shouldn't be used lightly. We're moving into areas in this thread that deal with things that can't really be classified in a legal system, especially when the ideas are taken to its ultimate expression. The example of the judge, accuser and accused would be one such example.
regardless though, it doesn't stop him from doing his thing again and again:
For instance, I had a temp job once installing awning, drapes and mini-blinds. There were rotating teams for the company and one day, I was working with this one guy who was militant when it came to his health, but he had taken it to the extreme in a subconscious desire to get praise and recognition from his father, who was also one of the 2 owners of the company. His father was also a very disciplined guy, so the son took it to the extreme to get his praise, but it wasn't doing anything to get the praise he wanted. However, one day, I gave him energy to help him out during one particularly hot day, but the energy had the secondary effect of letting him release some of the emotional energy he had pent up inside him. I wasn't around when he blew up, but I heard second hand that his yelling was intense and several of us, including the father of the guy who released his pent up emotions, the other owner and the supervisor of the team I was on at the time, were privately discussing what should be done to help him. And we all came to an agreement that he had personal life issues, that his ultra-regimented lifestyle was unhealthy. I had spoken with the supervisor of the team I was on privately and I poked around for more information, trying to get a quick psychological assessment of the family/work situation both the father and the son had and everything kept leading back to the father-son relationship, which the supervisor agreed probably was the reason. He had known the 2 of them for about 20 years, but he hadn't thought of the cause being the father-son relationship. The supervisor thought it might have been related to the son's relationships with girls, but when I suggested the father-son link and listed reason after reason why I thought that was why, he started seeing how the experiences the son was having with dating were really a symptom of his problems he was having with seeking his father's approval.
Now, the temp assignment was only for about 4 weeks and pretty much everything I learned about his personal life, outside of a few small details, I heard in that one afternoon. I haven't kept in touch with them, but the last I heard was that the son was feeling better after blowing up that one day and releasing many pent up feelings and he hasn't gone back to the same degree of militant disciplin he had before. The guy before he met me was a robot with over 95% of his life. He'd even beat himself up over not keeping his schedule from getting messed up.
pretty astounding! in fact, it even works over the internet:
There have even been times when someone online has specifically said that they were feeling better, having read a post I had made in regards to a TV show. They felt healthier, they said they were sitting up straighter and I hadn't even intended that they get better. They hadn't entered the conversation at that point.
and it doesn't stop there; in response to my question regarding how many people he has "healed" with his methods, he responds:
Face-to-face, several thousands. At a distance, a little less, but that is also when I haven't used 'roaming healings', where the energy moves from person to person, to area to area and continues to do so and work on others without any conscious or subconscious input from me. All summed up, we're talking millions, if not billions. This is what comes from a more extensive understanding of what is involved in energy healing/manipulation.
said "understanding" I am obviously lacking given my apostasy regarding the whole issue, which culminated in his opinion:
And this is why you will always never understand energy healing. You keep thinking of it as a figurative thing and always dismissing the literal, outside of anything related to the material body...Proper energy healing requires the belief that it is literal and tangible for the best results overall. An apparent material reductionist might work in certain instances, but it is still not a proper understanding...The fact you've taken the position more aimed to material reductionism, the fact you say chi is a metaphor and not a literal thing, contradictory to its nature, the fact you aren't making a distinction between energy manipulation and energy healing, your stance that energy healing works the same way as modern medical healing, etc. etc.
yes, etc. etc. indeed...
of course, you can read the actual thread in its agonizing entirety here:
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47322

so anyway guys, if history is any guide, he's not going to give an inch on this point - you can demonstrate your opinion any which way you like, it won't change a thing (a fact I learned myself the hard way)

I am sure that his next post will be to talk about how I am bringing up stuff that's unrelated, that I am taking his stuff out of context, etc. etc. etc.; that's fine, whatever, just giving a little perspective on the matter is all...

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

This is why you don't stop with the downward elbow. You follow up with temple strikes, hammer fists or whatever else you're capable of doing in that position to maintain dominance.

Reply]
Then why bother doing it? Just drop/ sink your weight, spread your legs back and to the side into either a deep bow or Mountain climbing stance, or just sprawl enough to neutralize it, and get back to your feet.

All this striking stuff will never work, because you have to open up too much at a critical time, when yo need to be maintaining your structure and root. If you are in a position to make a counter like that work, the BJJ guy is going to know that, and he won't shoot in the first place.

[SenseiShellie]

This is why, even though they wrap themselves around you, you still absorb the force of their energy into your body and direct it down. You still maintain your balance, as you're directing their energy downward.

Reply]
If they got your hands around you already, it is too late. If you are sinking into a deep bowstance, you have a chance as it gives a similar energy to a sprawl, and allows you to lean your weight down on top of them but you are still not in a position to drop an effective elbow.

A deep mountian climbing stance might be better if you can turn them off line, but still your objective is to redirect thier force, and that requires you to put your hands on them. Trying to strike in the heat of that moment will just open you up to be taken down as they adjust to your counter.

Remember, these guys are not frik'n Rhino's, they can adjust and redirect too. They develop a body sensitivity similar to Taiji Quan guys, and are really adept at taking YOU off your center as well.


I don't know how well your theory is working here. I have a friend that beat a Taiji Master using BJJ. The master fajined himself into a really bad lock where my friend could have broken the Master's shoulder and neck. Someone who's studied Taiji all their life though might be different...so, Unless you're Chen Zhenglai, I wouldn't suggest your approach. I would suggest studying the art of BJJ or some of the other suggestions, such as MMA and/or Greco Roman Wrestling.

[unkokusai]

really folks - it's a loosing battle - you can't argue with someone who sees the world the way this guy does; here are some examples of his tenuous grasp of reality in other areas (bold mine):

first off, he fancies himself some sort of "energy healer" who can clear up a lifetime of dysfunction with a few waves of his "qi"

in fact, he's so good that he can do it without them even knowing about it:

but what about more mundane things, say, I don't know, a dislocated finger:


yeah, that's a great idea...anyway, not surprisingly, when asked about his training and credentials, the definitive answer he (finally) gave was:

of course, that's ok because:

and

indeed - when will those show up, I wonder?, well it explains comments like:

certainly a very responsible perspective; speaking of responsibility, when quered as to what recourse a patient has if they go to an unlicensed energy healer and experience a negative effect, he offers the following:

regardless though, it doesn't stop him from doing his thing again and again:

pretty astounding! in fact, it even works over the internet:

and it doesn't stop there; in response to my question regarding how many people he has "healed" with his methods, he responds:

said "understanding" I am obviously lacking given my apostasy regarding the whole issue, which culminated in his opinion:

yes, etc. etc. indeed...
of course, you can read the actual thread in its agonizing entirety here:
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47322

so anyway guys, if history is any guide, he's not going to give an inch on this point - you can demonstrate your opinion any which way you like, it won't change a thing (a fact I learned myself the hard way)

I am sure that his next post will be to talk about how I am bringing up stuff that's unrelated, that I am taking his stuff out of context, etc. etc. etc.; that's fine, whatever, just giving a little perspective on the matter is all...





Ok, so he didn't just start being a moron with this thread. Got it.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I don't know how well your theory is working here. I have a friend that beat a Taiji Master using BJJ. The master fajined himself into a really bad lock where my friend could have broken the Master's shoulder and neck. Someone who's studied Taiji all their life though might be different...so, Unless you're Chen Zhenglai, I wouldn't suggest your approach. I would suggest studying the art of BJJ or some of the other suggestions, such as MMA and/or Greco Roman Wrestling.

Reply]
What? what theory? About BJJ guys having sensitivity similar to Taiji Guys?

I did a little wrestling in High school, so I am not totally unfamiliar with things.

[cjurakpt]

The master fajined himself into a really bad lock
one of the few instances where using a noun as a verb is not only not punishable by the death sentance (as opposed to, say, "antiquing"), it actually pretty much sums up the whole issue of theory versus reality!

[TenTigers]

"This is why you don't stop with the downward elbow. You follow up with temple strikes, hammer fists or whatever else you're capable of doing in that position to maintain dominance."
I think what you are failing to realize is that this is happening in a nanosecond. If your downward elbow doesn't work (it won't) yuo will NOT follow up with anything, as you will be already on the ground.Period.
I have a friend I train with-4th deg BB in JJ,(not BJJ) used to do Hung-Ga, collegieate wrestler, HS Football,weight lifter-basically built like a brick sh1thouse.
So I, like Ron had the same theories-"I'll use my horse" "I'll drop the elbow" "I'll this, that and the other thing.." yep. So we got on the floor. I tried it all, and then I said,"Yeah, well, I'm not hitting you hard." (cuz the elbow, well, that'll really fuk yu up.) so he says,"You can go harder" so I did. I (tried to) hit him with the elbow, and everything else. Then I went harder. And harder. Nope, Nothing. Nada. I am a firm believer. I was down and on my back so many times, I had road rash.
Last week, I'm at my Si-Hing's place and one of his guys is a greco-roman wrestler. He showed some things that drive this point home even more.
Basically, what I and it seems everyone else is saying is that you really and honestly need to grab someone who has real knowledge of this stuff, and then get on the mat and try. That is the only way you will ever know what works and what doesn't. Helz yeah it hurts, and the ego hurts even more, but that's the easy way. Do you want to find out the hard way? Do yu want to bear that responsibility for those you teach?

[Knifefighter]

Maybe you could do what the first guy to beat a BJJ Black Belt in MMA in the US did, Maurice Smith. He was a world champion kickboxer in the late 80s-early 90s. He was challenged by Royce Gracie. He looked at tape of Royce and declined, but he took up cross training wrestling and submission fighting with Frank Shamrock and T Kohsaka. About 2 years later, he asked Royce to fight, but Royce declined. So he went to Battlecade Extreme Fighting where he KO'd 'Conan' Silviera, a BJJ BB from Brazil, with a beautiful head kick.


Maurice Smith vs. Renzo Gracie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe46MmMp6-0

[Knifefighter]

Oh, lord. Look, who cares about some tournament crap about elbows. I'm speaking of technique application. You've had plenty of chances to show what I've said is wrong (the medicine or the physics), but since you don't want to do that, I have no choice but to declare me the winner (for lack of a better word) because you lost via forfeiting.

Because you are unable to willingly conduct yourself in the proper manner, I am done speaking to you about this topic.

Vale Tudo with full force elbows to the back of the neck has been for over 50 years in Brazil. So far no one has had his neck broken or been paralyzed from this.

The early days of MMA in the USA allowed elbows to the back of the neck... no one was paralyzed or ended up with a broken neck there either.

[Chosen-frozen]

what does "upper" mean? and what if both their arms are at equal height?


what sort of footwork do you need to do to position yourself for this correctly? and what do you do if they change the arms so that now the left one is the "upper" arm



I hate to get involved in these little arguments, but at least I can make sure you`re all arguing about the same stuff.

The "upper arm" means the area between the elbow and the shoulder, as opposed to the forearm (the area between the wrist and elbow.) When you`re done training try reading a book once in a while.

[JiuJitsu]

OK. Ok come guys stop arguing!

I have the correct answer for all of you.

It's all about chi and routing yourself to the ground with your stance!
As the BJJ guy shoots, what u need to do is lower into a horse stance and center your chi into the earth. At the same time use a tiger claw to his face, add some chi to this claw strike so you shatter some bones! If done right there is no defense!

Actually I have no idea if that would work but I'm gonna go along with the theories that so many otheres have.

And being a BJJ brown belt myself I guess this topic is about fighting against guys like me :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Maurice Smith vs. Renzo Gracie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe46MmMp6-0

Beautiful display of a combination triangle and arm bar/wrist lock.
Judo 101 :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I once stopped a GJJ shoot by driving my schlong through the opponents head, thus killing him instantly, I don't recommend that move for obvious reasons.

[1bad65]

After reading cjurakpt's post about Ron, there really is no point in arguing. The guy is a space cadet.

Although if he really does train alive as he says, getting video of this technique working on a fully resisting, trained opponent should be simple...

[xcakid]

Why is this thread not in the MMA forum? :confused:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Why is this thread not in the MMA forum? :confused:

That forum lacks chi.

[tjmitch]

About 25-27 seconds in you see the dreaded 'spiking the elbow into the spine' See for yourself how effective it is. Also, at around 1:44 Royce also tries the 'dim mak' of elbows to the spine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN6PvPCrStI

Guys, instead of talking about what works, you need to find out for yourself on the mats. Everyone talks about 'not having an ego....you need to empty you cup...' and all of the other bullsh!t, but do you really do it? Can you humble yourself, put on a white belt and go see what really happens? I did. It opened my eyes to how unprepared I was to end up flat on my back in a fight.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

About 25-27 seconds in you see the dreaded 'spiking the elbow into the spine' See for yourself how effective it is. Also, at around 1:44 Royce also tries the 'dim mak' of elbows to the spine.

Reply]
This shows exactly why this won't work. By the time it was thought to try it, the guy in yellow was already too far off balance, and being driven back to hard to make an effective strike with his elbow.

NOW, if the BJJ guy stepped in and stopped just short of taking the other guys center, and waited, then an elbow shot would work because you would be free to drop as many as you want from a solid position that allows proper power generation....of course, I don't know a BJJ guy on the planet would just stop and let you do that to him.....but if he did, then it would work.

[1bad65]

Guys, instead of talking about what works, you need to find out for yourself on the mats. Everyone talks about 'not having an ego....you need to empty you cup...' and all of the other bullsh!t, but do you really do it? Can you humble yourself, put on a white belt and go see what really happens? I did. It opened my eyes to how unprepared I was to end up flat on my back in a fight.

And therein lies the problem. Instead of putting on the white belt and admitting you need to start at step 1, alot of people would rather not leave their comfort zone where they are bowed to, called Master/Sifu/Sensei, and considered an expert. It's a total lack of humility by the same people who espouse being humble as a virtue.

Excellent post tjmitch

[BM2]

I'm just a noob with a blue belt in BJJ. I, too, thought that my quickness in striking would prevent me from being taken down when I first started. When a white belt took me down so fast that I didn't know what happened, it occured to me what went wrong.
I had never drilled take down defense.
How would anyone prevent from being taken down if they never practiced against it? Well, you don't and wind up on your back.
Oh, let's add the "My art also has ground fighting."
Have you tried it against a ground based system? Do you drill it? How about in class, do you roll?
Don't form an opinion untill you step on the mat with someone who does.

[tjmitch]

I also recently got my blue belt......my original plan was to do BJJ for a few months, just to be sure I could use my kung fu to deal with it. 3 years later I am still doing BJJ.

[lkfmdc]

well, almost 14 years after I first experienced BJJ, I am not only a BJJ student pretty much full time now (under Carmine Zochhi), I can also report that I've tapped to some of the best (Rickson, Royler, Carmine, Fabio Clemente, et al). Talk about "ego" :confused: It isn't managed by TMA mumbo jumbo. Getting on the mat and rolling, seeing stuff that you missed, getting put in bad positions, getting tapped, on bad days by people who you usually tap! :D .... THAT is what keeps ego in check

Along of course with healthy doses of wrestling, boxing, kickboxing, san da, clinching, etc

[Nick Forrer]

I can also report that I've tapped to some of the best (Rickson, Royler, Carmine, Fabio Clemente, et al)

Erm.....its great that you rate your instructor Ross but when you talk about 'the best' lets not put Carmine in with Rickson and Royler shall we.

[Ultimatewingchun]

FANWOO...

Go to a wrestling class/school and learn how to sprawl, cross face, underhook, and w h i z z e r.

And then go and buy/copy a bunch of Mirko Cro Cop's fights and watch how a first class kickboxer type has learned how to defend takedowns so well with his sprawls, underhooks, etc.

Watch, study, and learn.

And then go workout with some BJJ guys and other wrestler/grappler types who understand that you'll be punching and kicking along with sprawling when then try to do their thing.

And inside of one year your anti-takedown defense will be miles ahead of where it is right now.

Oh, and btw...if you're confused about some of the responses you've gotten on this thread - then pay close attention to the quote below from catch as catch can wrestling great Lou Thesz. ;) :cool:

[lkfmdc]

Erm.....its great that you rate your instructor Ross but when you talk about 'the best' lets not put Carmine in with Rickson and Royler shall we.

great, nothing else to argue about, so let's have a pizz over this then, eh?

[RonH]

cjurakpt, you are lame and boring. It's a pity that you've gone to the only recourse left for those that have no counterargument. Politics, focusing on character assassination. This is the second time you have come into a thread and brought up the discussion you had with me. I say you had with me because you were the initiator, which you even admit to. I've see better character assassinations by the rabid fans when the issue of 'What is Star Wars canon?' comes up in the Trek-Wars debate.

You said that you wanted to end the discussion and I assumed that you were fine with the 'agree to disagree' stance. I had no problem with it. But, twice you have tried to derail a conversation I have had in a thread by bringing this issue in. Like the responses of several others, you feel that I should pay attention to what you and the others have to say. But, the only reason you suggest for me doing so is because of their experience and yours. You place your own experience higher than mine and expect me to bow down to it with nothing more for 'proof' than saying because 'we have experience'.

So, you wish me to not try it for myself and use my own experience and intuition, but rely on yours for no other reason than because you (and others) say so. Not only is your logic flawed, it is ridiculous. Your attempts to make me take on your material reductionist viewpoint, making chi nothing more than the preposterous notion that it is only a metaphor, didn't work.

But, look at what it drove you to do. You lied about wanting to drop the matter. For all I know, you could have even gone on and on about what happened between us to others in other threads on the board and even in real life. If I didn't budge and accept any part of a theory that's nothing more than 'screw what they thought back then', that must mean that I never will budge on any subject. That's what you got from what we talked about.

Oh, boo bloody boo. Instead of acting like a grown up, you moan and complain that 'I don't want to consider anything you had to say on the matter; that means, I'll never consider anyone's view on any other subject'.

How often have I been in the exact same threads as you when the question of chi came up that you posted in? You gave your metaphor view and I gave another. And not once did you just post in to threads I was in and pointed to what you thought was nonsense?

Zero. That's how many. Whatever the reason, me telling you I don't believe you somehow has screwed you up so much, you have to follow me around the board, bringing the subject up again.

Guess how many times I thought about our discussion since it ended? Zero. That's how many...except... for the 2 times you've jumped into threads I have been in and brought it up with no prompting from anyone. This is only the second time I've thought about it. And guess what? I'm not gonna be thinking about it again. Not unless I see you've brought it up in another post without prompting from anyone.

Now, let me be clear about something. If you jump into another thread I am in and, without prompting, bring up the discussion you and I had about chi, I will consider that you have moved full on into a stage where you are stalking me across the board and I will do something I don't want to: contact the management of the board about your stalking, harrassment and derailment of topics. For now, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are able to stop this behavior, but I am not gonna let this continue without doing anything about it.

This will stop one way or another.

You should take a page from RD'S Alias - 1A's playbook. He disagrees with me, but he's a thinker. At least he's showing that he's making the effort to devise a counterargument to what I have said and I think it's been going pretty well. Especially when it's compared to several of the others in the peanut gallery that just wants to ridicule what I've said, regardless of their reasoning.

And so, I have finally decided to create a 'do not reply to' list. The names are listed in no particular order, but in compiling the list, I'm gonna name you, cjurakpt, first. For no other reason for the order because I'm replying to you with this message. There's also unkokusai. Don't worry lkfmdc, you're on there, too, so you don't feel bad that you're being left out.

Vale Tudo with full force elbows to the back of the neck has been for over 50 years in Brazil. So far no one has had his neck broken or been paralyzed from this.

The early days of MMA in the USA allowed elbows to the back of the neck... no one was paralyzed or ended up with a broken neck there either.

KF, why is it so hard for you to understand that, while I said it can happen, I wasn't talking every single bloody time the move is tried? I've said that already. Why do you insist on ignoring this point that I have made more than once?

[SenseiShellie]

well, almost 14 years after I first experienced BJJ, I am not only a BJJ student pretty much full time now (under Carmine Zochhi), I can also report that I've tapped to some of the best (Rickson, Royler, Carmine, Fabio Clemente, et al). Talk about "ego" :confused: It isn't managed by TMA mumbo jumbo. Getting on the mat and rolling, seeing stuff that you missed, getting put in bad positions, getting tapped, on bad days by people who you usually tap! :D .... THAT is what keeps ego in check

Along of course with healthy doses of wrestling, boxing, kickboxing, san da, clinching, etc

Wow..you say you tapped out my instructor's dad? I find it very hard to believe...especially since he has a record of like 400 and 0 in grappling matches, with an 11-0 MMA record. I seriously find it hard to believe. What is your real name? I'll ask Kron about you, you know, just to verify your claim.

[Nick Forrer]

Wow..you say you tapped out my instructor's dad? I find it very hard to believe...especially since he has a record of like 400 and 0 in grappling matches, with an 11-0 MMA record. I seriously find it hard to believe. What is your real name? I'll ask Kron about you, you know, just to verify your claim.

He said he was tapped by Rickson...not that he tapped him. BTW do me a favour - get Kron to show you his choke from within the bottom guys half guard that he does in competition and then tell us how he does it;):D

[RonH]

This is why you don't stop with the downward elbow. You follow up with temple strikes, hammer fists or whatever else you're capable of doing in that position to maintain dominance.

Reply]
Then why bother doing it?

To be able to do it. To take what is often seen as impossible to pull off during an 'alive' fight and make it workable. The fun is the challenge.

Just drop/ sink your weight, spread your legs back and to the side into either a deep bow or Mountain climbing stance,

It's too common a move. It's one that's often trained against.

or just sprawl enough to neutralize it, and get back to your feet.

I wouldn't want to sprawl and end up on the ground.

All this striking stuff will never work, because you have to open up too much at a critical time, when yo need to be maintaining your structure and root. If you are in a position to make a counter like that work, the BJJ guy is going to know that, and he won't shoot in the first place.

1) All joints and other 'weakspots' on the body are just as in danger as they are in when sinking your weight or going to the ground, regardless of how you face an opponent. Some are in less danger, say when you square off with someone, such as those on the back. But, if there are things behind you, they are in danger, if you get pushed back into them.
2) This is why I said learning to fake weakness is good because it gives you better control of the situation.

"This is why you don't stop with the downward elbow. You follow up with temple strikes, hammer fists or whatever else you're capable of doing in that position to maintain dominance."
I think what you are failing to realize is that this is happening in a nanosecond.

Exactly. By the time you have started any move against anyone, you should already have it laid out in your mind what you want to do as soon as you first lay eyes on your opponent. You also need to keep in mind several 'back up' possibilities that you can switch in and out of, as the fight continues or as something suddenly changes.

If your downward elbow doesn't work (it won't) yuo will NOT follow up with anything, as you will be already on the ground.Period.

Assuming you have nothing else up your sleeve, in case you don't get the move executed properly, for whatever reason.

I have a friend I train with-4th deg BB in JJ,(not BJJ) used to do Hung-Ga, collegieate wrestler, HS Football,weight lifter-basically built like a brick sh1thouse.
So I, like Ron had the same theories-"I'll use my horse" "I'll drop the elbow" "I'll this, that and the other thing.." yep. So we got on the floor. I tried it all, and then I said,"Yeah, well, I'm not hitting you hard." (cuz the elbow, well, that'll really fuk yu up.) so he says,"You can go harder" so I did. I (tried to) hit him with the elbow, and everything else. Then I went harder. And harder. Nope, Nothing. Nada. I am a firm believer. I was down and on my back so many times, I had road rash.
Last week, I'm at my Si-Hing's place and one of his guys is a greco-roman wrestler. He showed some things that drive this point home even more.
Basically, what I and it seems everyone else is saying is that you really and honestly need to grab someone who has real knowledge of this stuff, and then get on the mat and try. That is the only way you will ever know what works and what doesn't. Helz yeah it hurts, and the ego hurts even more, but that's the easy way.

I've trained for fighting/ground fighting against grapplers, wrestlers and other ground fighters. For some of them, it took me a long time before I won against them. For others, not so much. But, all of them knew what they were doing. I don't fight against anyone for the practice. I do study people before partnering up with them. I'm selective about who I fight with, but one of the characteristics I look for in someone to partner up with is someone that's got some trait that seriously trumps something I've got. I can't learn, if all I fight against are people with less skill/lower traits than me. That doesn't push the limits of what I can do to new heights. That's why I'm selective.

Do you want to find out the hard way? Do yu want to bear that responsibility for those you teach?

Any information I give out online, especially when it comes to martial arts technique, does come with some responsibility. That is why I give warnings. Those warnings are often expanded upon when I go into greater detail about the consequences of what can happen, if one is not careful, during the discussions of what I've said.

[Nick Forrer]

Notice the elbows to the back of the neck, notice the lack of effect

http://uk.yout