Style, concept, or art

[JKDISBEST]

In my own opinion from what I am being taught and what I have read, Jeet Kune Do, is an art. If anyone has their opinion on what JKD is please share it as I would love to hear it.

[zippo_88]

I'll just paste what I wrote in your other thread. This is pretty much my view on JKD.

I myself follow the CONCEPT of Jeet Kune Do. I stress the word concept because that's what it is, it is not a style. Jeet Kune Do is a pholosophy for life in gneral and one that can be applied to martial arts. It is to be open, to flow like water, have no restrictions, never trap yourself. To develop your Jeet Kune Do in martial arts one must first have training in some sort of style in order to learn what it means to punch, block, kick, etc. The ideal style to be trained in is the one developed by Bruce Lee himself, Jun Fan Gung Fu, but it is not absolutely neccessary. Once you have reached a proficient level in your chosen style you may begin to strip away what does not fit your personality and incorporate differente things into your training, from other styles, from anything in life really. Be fluid, be open, have no restrictions, this is the true essence of Jeet Kune Do. The person with the best style is the one who has risen above styles. As Bruce Lee himself said, "Have no limitation as limitation, Use no way as way." and "Be water my friend."

[JKDISBEST]

I fully understand what you are getting at, and why you believe its a concept. I have seen some Dan Insanto Concept videos but those are the concets of JKD. they don't teach the stance Bruce created nor some of the methods or principles.

Its not only a concept, but a style and an art.

[zippo_88]

I believe the style is Jun Fan Gung Fu, which served as the base for learning Jeet Kune Do but any style really can serve as a base. It is important to know what it means to punch, kick, block, etc. only then can you learn to strip away what is useless to you and incorporate what is useful to you. Be it from any part of life. This video explains it really well: http://youtube.com/watch?v=-gnfAYRoobE&mode=related&search=

He says there are two parts, the Jun Fan Gung Fu and the Jeet Kune Do. I believe that your "base style" does not have to neccessarily have to be Jun Fan Gung Fu, as Bruce Lee's "base style" was not Jun Fan Gung Fu but Wing Chun lol. Yes, it is the ideal "base style" but just like everything else in Jeet Kune Do, it's not absolutely necessary.

[JKDISBEST]

Thats Dan Inosanto, he teaches the concept, not the style. If you want to watch good videos of JKD or learn more about JKD find Tommy carruthers, he is almost like Bruce Lee. Thats where I go to research or watch videos to further learn about JKD or learn JKD.

I don't know so much, but I know quite about about JKD. I have a friend who is teaching me, he knows more about JKD then me. So he might be able to explain to you that it is a style or art.

[street_fighter]

Thats Dan Inosanto, he teaches the concept, not the style. If you want to watch good videos of JKD or learn more about JKD find Tommy carruthers, he is almost like Bruce Lee. Thats where I go to research or watch videos to further learn about JKD or learn JKD.

I don't know so much, but I know quite about about JKD. I have a friend who is teaching me, he knows more about JKD then me. So he might be able to explain to you that it is a style or art.

its an honour to have you on our forum. your know is best.

[zippo_88]

its an honour to have you on our forum. your know is best.

hahaha come on let's not get sarchastic lol



Thats Dan Inosanto, he teaches the concept, not the style. If you want to watch good videos of JKD or learn more about JKD find Tommy carruthers, he is almost like Bruce Lee. Thats where I go to research or watch videos to further learn about JKD or learn JKD.

I don't know so much, but I know quite about about JKD. I have a friend who is teaching me, he knows more about JKD then me. So he might be able to explain to you that it is a style or art.

Listen my friend, I think we have to agree to disagree here. Bruce Lee himself said JKD is not a style, Dan Inosanto was his chief student so I value his view quite a lot. I believe the style you keep referring to is not Jeet Kune Do but Jun Fan Gung Fu. Good luck in your training.

[lkfmdc]

I personally prefer his thread about the video games......

oh, and the answer is crane style, do right, no can defend

[JKDISBEST]

That video games was dumb, and zippo I will agree to disagree, but I know I am right, and you are also right with some things that you have said.

[sunfist]

Art? More like F A R T!

[mantis7]

JKD,

Just read what has been published and what is being taught. THe Jun Fan concept vs nucleus vs I am Bruce Lee's illegitimate son is all political in fighting.

Dan was the man as far as JKD was concerned until something went wrong. He basically controlled the defining route of everything that was JKD. Now this JUN Fan gung fu nonsense and what Dan does as not being authentic is a bunch of nonsense.

The Jun Fan gung fu stuff is bunch of Wing chun and other things mashed together surround by Lee's theories and concepts he followed. HE was alway adding to it and as the quote goes "Be like water my friend"

In other words use what works. If a jab works use the jab. I doubt he would have wanted generation to take everything he worked on and forced it to fit into a box.

but back to what I think you are doing.... take your is concepts vs nucleus bs to a thread that says "Which is legitimate JKD concepts or what ever Linda Lee is holding up as authentic"

[Shaolin Wookie]

JKD is MMA. "Use what works, discard the rest." All this style stuff is nonsense. Bruce wanted to get away from forms and ceremony. He was fast enough and quick enough to use some techniques other people would have trouble with. His quick recovery allowed him to use what might be considered "unrealistic techniques."

Look at his writings. He has positive and negative things to say about all styles he learned things from.

Is MMA a style? Of course not. Neither is JKD.

Anyone who thinks it's a style is probably a TMA who idolized Bruce Lee b/c that's what he wants to look like when he's fighting (****y and cool), and so tries to assimilate his philosophy into his current martial knowledge, calling it a style. Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken.;);)

[zippo_88]

Jeet Kune Do is the philosohpy of "open-ness"

Create your own Jeet Kune Do from your knowledge

I don't personally believe JKD is MMA because I associate MMA with fighting without a purpose, just stupid competition and that isn't what martial arts is about. Violence should never be glorified.

JKD is a philosophy of being open, fluid, never rigid.

[brianK]

Zippo: The "purpose" of MMA fighting is to win the fight. That is what martial arts are all about. Many arts have had a philosophical framework either influence or grow around the art (Bruce borrowed heavily from Krishnamurti, Lao Tzu, and many others), but the purpose is coming out on top in a violent encounter.

I think the whole "martial arts aren't about fighting" thing is a decadent product of practicing empty hand and cold arms based arts in an era when guns have largely made a lot of our stuff obsolete. Bruce was obsessed with martial efficacy. As to glorifying violence, the founder of the "whatever" of JKD made a living in kung fu cinema.

In the immortal words of Chopper Reid: Harden the f$@k up, Zippo88! I don't think Bruce wanted his ideas turned into hippiefied pseudo-martial arts.

Brian

[JKDISBEST]

I agree with Zippo on his MMA comments. MMA is a bunch of guys throwing horrible punches and kicks and hugging each other, thats not JKD.

JKD is about ending an altercation without wasting time or energy. Its about being direct,effcient, and with simpliciety. Also JKD focuses of using any tools that fit you and being able to adapt to the situation, unlike in MMA they have to follow a set of rules and boundrys, which doesn't allow them to adapt to their fight fully.

[BlueTravesty]

I think the whole "martial arts aren't about fighting" thing is a decadent product of practicing empty hand and cold arms based arts in an era when guns have largely made a lot of our stuff obsolete. Bruce was obsessed with martial efficacy. As to glorifying violence, the founder of the "whatever" of JKD made a living in kung fu cinema.

Good point. Most JKD'ers, by their very nature will do their best to straddle the worlds of TMA and MMA. They adopt many of the theories and philosophies of TMAs past, but at the same time, they adopt an approach similar to that of MMA- discard what is useless. Naturally, this will present a conflict of interest; from a strict martial point of view the philosophies are "useless." From a philosophical point of view, fighting is "useless."

Jeet Kune Do is the philosohpy of "open-ness"

Create your own Jeet Kune Do from your knowledge

I don't personally believe JKD is MMA because I associate MMA with fighting without a purpose, just stupid competition and that isn't what martial arts is about. Violence should never be glorified.

JKD is a philosophy of being open, fluid, never rigid.

More conflict. Violence should never be glorified, and yet we do our very best to distill the resolution of violent encounters into an art form, complete with all the philosophical and theoretical trappings that go with it.

MMA in its purest form is a misnomer- as it strives for technique and performance for no reason other than to dominate someone in a fight. Get the technique "right enough" so you can use it, and then condition the crap out of yourself. Perfection of technique, and deeper philosophical insights into the nature of a fight, all these are inconsequential. This is very Martial, but it's not Art. A more apt description of this approach with be "Fighting Thingie." No one can argue its martial efficiency (though some try) but it is not Martial Art.

At the same time, most TMAs in their purest "contemporary ideal form" fall short of the ideal of "Martial Art." Many will teach clean, crisp technique and the perfection thereof, but will not do their utmost to put those techniques to use. The techniques therefore stagnate and are warped to the point where they become pretty, but useless. This is Art, but it is not Martial.

The ideal approach would be to do both. But like Yin and Yang, no one is purely one or the other to begin with. There are some MMAists out there who seek perfection of technique as an end to itself, as opposed to the sort who just like to bust heads. Just as there are some TMAists who mix it up regularly and cross-train. They train forms to preserve the "art" aspect, but also understand the need to preserve the "martial" aspect- and there is only one way to do that.

There are many Martial Arts practitioners but very few Martial Artists. I am one of the former who aspires to someday be one of the latter.

[David Jamieson]

In my own opinion from what I am being taught and what I have read, Jeet Kune Do, is an art. If anyone has their opinion on what JKD is please share it as I would love to hear it.


maybe you should read some of those books.

jkd is and has always been a concept that can be applied directly to any martial art. It's about making a style fit you and making it work in context to you and to move away from being stuck in a stylistic nightmare where you force yourself to do things that you cannot make work.

hence the take what is useful and leave the rest. The thing is, what johnny thinks is useful is different from what timmy thinks is useful and so on.

you really should do your due diligence before making these kinds of posts.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In my own opinion from what I am being taught and what I have read, Jeet Kune Do, is an art. If anyone has their opinion on what JKD is please share it as I would love to hear it.

If Bruce Lee was around, he'd kick your butt for saying such a think about JKD !
:D

[zippo_88]

MMA in its purest form is a misnomer- as it strives for technique and performance for no reason other than to dominate someone in a fight.

I agree though I would change the "dominate someone in a fight" to dominate someone in a competition. Learning to fight is part of martial arts, and I stress PART. It is never the sole reason as it is with MMA.


I agree with Zippo on his MMA comments. MMA is a bunch of guys throwing horrible punches and kicks and hugging each other, thats not JKD.

Thank you, I'm glad my point was understood.


I think the whole "martial arts aren't about fighting" thing is a decadent product of practicing empty hand and cold arms based arts in an era when guns have largely made a lot of our stuff obsolete. Bruce was obsessed with martial efficacy. As to glorifying violence, the founder of the "whatever" of JKD made a living in kung fu cinema.

Brian


Yet Bruce himself said that violence should never be glorified.

Taken from the book 'Striking Thoughts':
"I don't think one should use violence and aggression as themes of movies. The glorification of violence is bad." -Bruce Lee

[brianK]

[


Yet Bruce himself said that violence should never be glorified.

Taken from the book 'Striking Thoughts':
"I don't think one should use violence and aggression as themes of movies. The glorification of violence is bad." -Bruce Lee[/QUOTE]


Yes, Bruce never used violence and aggression as themes in movies, and he always displayed the utmost humility.

FWIW, my cma grandteacher studied with Taky Kimura in the '70's, and he said JKD is a concept and Bruce's personal fighting art was Jun Fan gung fu.

Again, I believe the whole "martial arts are about more than fighting" attitude owes more to David Carridine than to ,say, Guo Yunshen. When your life depended on your skill, martial arts were about fighting. And I'm a xingyi/bagua guy (in addition to BJJ) who recognizes the depth of cma. I just don't think the notion of cma for health/spiritual development/confidence/etc. was prevalent before Yang Cheng Fu and Sun Lutang started propagating that notion. Those benefits were there, but they were more like a fortunate byproduct of the training rather than a goal of the training.

Brian

[brianK]

I agree with Zippo on his MMA comments. MMA is a bunch of guys throwing horrible punches and kicks and hugging each other, thats not JKD.

JKD is about ending an altercation without wasting time or energy. Its about being direct,effcient, and with simpliciety. Also JKD focuses of using any tools that fit you and being able to adapt to the situation, unlike in MMA they have to follow a set of rules and boundrys, which doesn't allow them to adapt to their fight fully.

Heh, heh. JKDISBEST, clearly your talents are being wasted here, when Fedor Emelienenko and Shogun Hua have such horrible punches and kicks. People will take your well-informed views on martial arts with the sense of awe that they should once you've done away with a few such pushovers.

And it's good that JKD focuses on efficiency. MMA/BJJ clearly strive for inefficiency, to use maximum effort to get minimal results.:rolleyes: Seriously, what's your cage fighting record? If you know so much about the sloppiness of MMA technique, I assume it's from competing in sport fighting (where techs never look as clean as in applications training), and not just from casual spectating. Right?

Brian

[JKDISBEST]

If Bruce Lee was around, he'd kick your butt for saying such a think about JKD !
:D

You guys get wrapped up in Bruce Lee's philosophy, JKD is a style. I am going to further research JKD and prove my point.

And MMA guys fight good in the ring, outside the ring they won't win. And when I say good I mean as in for throwing bad punches and kicks. Cause they do. Just watch UFC or Pride fighting or Bodog Fight, they have no sence of range and throw haymakers like crazy.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You guys get wrapped up in Bruce Lee's philosophy, JKD is a style. I am going to further research JKD and prove my point.

And MMA guys fight good in the ring, outside the ring they won't win. And when I say good I mean as in for throwing bad punches and kicks. Cause they do. Just watch UFC or Pride fighting or Bodog Fight, they have no sence of range and throw haymakers like crazy.

You keep saying that JKD is a style and Bruce will whip a testicle at you.

[brianK]

You guys get wrapped up in Bruce Lee's philosophy, JKD is a style. I am going to further research JKD and prove my point.

And MMA guys fight good in the ring, outside the ring they won't win. And when I say good I mean as in for throwing bad punches and kicks. Cause they do. Just watch UFC or Pride fighting or Bodog Fight, they have no sence of range and throw haymakers like crazy.

So, JKDISBEST, your research on JKD will prove Taky Kimura wrong. Doubtful. Bruce, like Dong Hai Chuan before him, took what a student brought to the table and tweaked it according to his philosophy. He was really an MMA pioneer.

As far as your views on MMA, we've established that if Fedor had the misfortune to run into you outside of the ring, you would tear him apart and eat his soul; rings and octogons just nullify your powers somehow. I suggest an experiment. Go to your local MMA school, tell them their stuff only works with gloves and rules, and challange them to a no rules bare knuckle fight. I bet you'll find some takers.

Maybe you've heard of Bas Rutten; he's legendary for his horrible punches and kicks (horribly painful;)). Bas worked as a doorman (bouncer) for many years, and has stated that the level of difficulty and intensity of a no rules barfight doesn't come close to facing a skilled professional fighter who trained with you in mind. But you probably know more about MMA than El Guapo.

Bruce was about cutting through the BS of classical arts. He made studies of judo/jujutsu as well as muay thai back in his day. I doubt he would share your opinion of MMA.

Brian

[sanjuro_ronin]

Maybe you've heard of Bas Rutten; he's legendary for his horrible punches and kicks (horribly painful). Bas worked as a doorman (bouncer) for many years, and has stated that the level of difficulty and intensity of a no rules barfight doesn't come close to facing a skilled professional fighter who trained with you in mind. But you probably know more about MMA than El Guapo.


Bas is quite correct, fighting a trained fighter under rules, especially a prepared fighter, is quite a chore.
A trained fighter like Bas VS some punk on the street, no contest.
BUT, as Bas will tell you, the "danger" on the street is far greater for obvious reasons.

[TenTigers]

I think there should be an age requirement as well as parental controls in place in order to post on this forum.:rolleyes:
If there were an intelligence requirement, I would be here alone.
I think this shows how modest and tolerant I am.

[JKDISBEST]

This is a quote from Ted Wong that I found in a book called Bruce Lee Jeet Kune Do:Bruce Lee's commentaries on the Martial Ways

"Drawing from diverse and authentic source martials, with sections on combative techniques, training, methodology, philosophy, motivational/inspirational beliefs, lesson plans, teaching/coaching strategies, as well a Bruce's own comments on the historical development of his ART" Ted Wong Bruce's private student from 1967-1973 on the book Bruce Lee Jeet Kune Do:Bruce Lee's commentaries on the Martial Ways


"Ted Wong is considered one of the most knowledable men in the world regarding Bruce Lee's ART of Jeet Kune Do" from Bruce Lee Jeet Kune Do:Bruce Lee's commentaries on the Martial Ways

[JKDISBEST]

As for MMA this will be my final comment on it seeing as how we will never agree on this subject. I personally would not want to fight a well trained MMA fighter, because they are trained to fight. Though they throw bad punches if they connect they would destroy most average Martial Artists like myself. But if an MMA guy fought someone well trained in ANY form of Martial Arts the MMA guy would be destroyed.

An Example if Oskar de la Hoya were to fight Chuck Liddell in a UFC fight Oskar would win because he is a boxer that knows what do do in his art and Chuck knows what he is doing too. But a good boxer could beat a great MMA fighter.

[Vankuen]

Why do people still think that Pro's from other areas are better than the MMA pro's?

MMA fighters from the likes of the UFC and Pride are PROFESSIONAL fighters--they are the best at what they do. Oscar Delahoya is a boxer. A boxer would not know what to do with all the other mess that goes on in the octagon--period. Hell--even Holyfield mentioned how he would never do something like that, and for the same reason I just stated.

You're delusional is you think that some "well trained" martial artist could step into any ring with a professional and win.

I like to think that I have a good amount of skill and knowledge in fighting. But I'm not a professional. I don't train all day every day, I don't fight full contact on a consistent basis, and (sadly) don't have ring girls surrounding me all the time. ****....I'm in the wrong field of martial arts.

[AmanuJRY]

An Example if Oskar de la Hoya were to fight Chuck Liddell in a UFC fight Oskar would win because he is a boxer that knows what do do in his art and Chuck knows what he is doing too. But a good boxer could beat a great MMA fighter.

:rolleyes:
In a boxing match maybe. In MMA it would go to whoever could keep the other guy fighting his game.

Chuck also knows what to do on the ground (and is good at it)...does Oskar???

Is Oskar able to stop a takedown?

Could Oskar KO Chuck?

[JKDISBEST]

Well Oskar would keep away from Chuck in the octagon. Chuck would want to throw his overhand right all the time and oskar would catch him with a few jabs. Boxer's have to wear those thick gloves because if they used the gloves of an MMA fighter the boxing match would be over faster than a usual fight.

Oskar would knock out Chuck, not with ease, but he would knock Chuck out plain and simple. Oskar would not let Chuck take him down, he would keep away from him.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well Oskar would keep away from Chuck in the octagon. Chuck would want to throw his overhand right all the time and oskar would catch him with a few jabs. Boxer's have to wear those thick gloves because if they used the gloves of an MMA fighter the boxing match would be over faster than a usual fight.

Oskar would knock out Chuck, not with ease, but he would knock Chuck out plain and simple. Oskar would not let Chuck take him down, he would keep away from him.

:eek:

Words fail me.

[AmanuJRY]

Well Oskar would keep away from Chuck in the octagon. Chuck would want to throw his overhand right all the time and oskar would catch him with a few jabs. Boxer's have to wear those thick gloves because if they used the gloves of an MMA fighter the boxing match would be over faster than a usual fight.

Oskar would knock out Chuck, not with ease, but he would knock Chuck out plain and simple. Oskar would not let Chuck take him down, he would keep away from him.

...and exactly how do you know this to be true?
(what you believe would happen, and what really would happen probably aren't the same)
...and how about against Fedor?

[zippo_88]

Ok, I'll post one more thing here about JKD. Anyone who has any doubts on it should read Bruce Lee: Artist of Life, all your answers are there from Bruce himself.

As for MMA, I just don't like it, that's my personal view, I don't like fighting for the sake of fighting, in my opinion fighting shouldn't be a sport but a last resort of self defense.

To paraphrase Bruce Lee I view Martial Arts as a mirror through which we view ourselves.

[AmanuJRY]

Ok, I'll post one more thing here about JKD. Anyone who has any doubts on it should read Bruce Lee: Artist of Life, all your answers are there from Bruce himself.

As for MMA, I just don't like it, that's my personal view, I don't like fighting for the sake of fighting, in my opinion fighting shouldn't be a sport but a last resort of self defense.

To paraphrase Bruce Lee I view Martial Arts as a mirror through which we view ourselves.


I believe Bruce would have been all about the MMA (one word, Beimo).:cool:

[JKDISBEST]

Ok, watch a boxer in the ring and watch a UFC fighter or Bodog fighter in the ring. You can see the difference. Boxers are not fatiqued as fast as the Guys in say UFC even though they take harder hits. Whether you guys want to admit it or not you all know an MMA guy could be beat by any boxer hands down.

Like Zippo I don't like MMA is stupid pointless, not because of the violence but because of the horrible punches and kicks and the way that MMA fighters conduct themselves in the ring. I think that groundfighting is pointless seeing as how I am learning the artform of Jeet Kune Do I feel as though a fight should be ended as fast as possible with as little energy used.

MMA is not about being Fluent with their punches or kicks, they go straight for a takedown which is dumb they should go for a simple fast knockout instead of grounding their opponents.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ok, watch a boxer in the ring and watch a UFC fighter or Bodog fighter in the ring. You can see the difference. Boxers are not fatiqued as fast as the Guys in say UFC even though they take harder hits. Whether you guys want to admit it or not you all know an MMA guy could be beat by any boxer hands down.

Like Zippo I don't like MMA is stupid pointless, not because of the violence but because of the horrible punches and kicks and the way that MMA fighters conduct themselves in the ring. I think that groundfighting is pointless seeing as how I am learning the artform of Jeet Kune Do I feel as though a fight should be ended as fast as possible with as little energy used.

MMA is not about being Fluent with their punches or kicks, they go straight for a takedown which is dumb they should go for a simple fast knockout instead of grounding their opponents.

You need to see more MMA or train in it for a bit, I think it would be a great eye opener, and this coming from someone that doesn't care much for sport of MMA.

[brianK]

Ok, watch a boxer in the ring and watch a UFC fighter or Bodog fighter in the ring. You can see the difference. Boxers are not fatiqued as fast as the Guys in say UFC even though they take harder hits. Whether you guys want to admit it or not you all know an MMA guy could be beat by any boxer hands down.

Like Zippo I don't like MMA is stupid pointless, not because of the violence but because of the horrible punches and kicks and the way that MMA fighters conduct themselves in the ring. I think that groundfighting is pointless seeing as how I am learning the artform of Jeet Kune Do I feel as though a fight should be ended as fast as possible with as little energy used.

MMA is not about being Fluent with their punches or kicks, they go straight for a takedown which is dumb they should go for a simple fast knockout instead of grounding their opponents.

First of all, boxers get into MMA all the time. They quickly learn the need for grappling skills and often add muay thai to the mix. Second of all, there are knockouts in MMA all the time. Have you seen Mirko Crocop or Fedor fight? How about Dan Henderson?

Third, you admit that the "horrible" punches and kicks would destroy most average martial artists, which I guess would make MMA guys above average martial artists. Logically.

And I'm glad you think ground fighting is pointless, since Bruce spent time with jujutsu/judo men and put straight armbars into his movies in the '60's. You've never sparred a grappler, have you? Going to the ground isn't always a choice. The more you write, the more I think that you've never really sparred anyone from outside of your style. Who thinks punches and kicks in a real fight look as good as in the kwoon/dojo/dojang/whatever?

And you've never addressed Taky Kimura's take on Jun Fan/JKD.

Brian

[brianK]

JKDISBEST, I just checked your profile, and perhaps I've been a bit harsh. All I will say is, perhaps you should hold off on judging professional fighters until you've been training for at least a few years. You are making some assumptions which experience will probably alter over the years.

And maybe also hold off on interpreting Bruce's writings for a bit. Bruce did not want a codified system, and for all his paraphrasing of J. Krishnamurti, he thought the primary function of martial arts was development of fighting skill. Everything else is "doing something about fighting." And even if you believe martial arts are only for last ditch self-defense, they won't work for you if you never test them in pressure situations. Street fights are ideal for pressure testing, but for civilized types the ring is the next best option. Ever seen that old footage of Bruce and the other Yip Man boys in those rooftop fights in Hong Kong? If your pushing JKD as a non-martial form of personal development, you might be misinterpreting some things.

Brian