the downward spiral (as promised)

[lkfmdc]

San Da Training Systems
The instructors’ Network
August 1, 2007

Why I am no longer a “kung fu guy”: observations on a vicious cycle

I am not sure how relevant this particular article will be to those with backgrounds in Japanese and Korean martial arts. While I do have Korean martial arts in my background, I am of course mostly known for my years with the late master Chan Tai-San and my affiliation with Lama Pai kung fu and the traditional Chinese martial art (TCMA) community. In some respects, this is a response to those who wonder why I no longer affiliate myself with that community, i.e. why I am not longer a “kung fu guy”.

Of course, the first and most obvious answer is what I’ve stated so many times, which is evident in my school (New York San Da) and in my association (San Da Training Systems). I am interested in what works and in the most efficient way to teach my students. A very long time ago, perhaps from the very beginning, I rejected the idea that you do something blindly and/or that you did something because it was “tradition”. In fact, as a person who in addition to being a member of the TCMA community is also a trained historian I am not sure what is packaged and sold today as “tradition” has very much to do with what TCMA fighters were doing in China 150 years ago. Today’s “traditional kung fu” has about as much to do with reality as John Wayne movies have to do with the real American frontier!

Another reason I’ve disassociated myself from the TCMA community is what I am beginning to see as a vicious cycle of negativity. The community is in a downward spiral, where each generation is introducing more negativity while simultaneously detaching itself from what should be obvious realities. I don’t think most people have yet to grasp this, but I think the two issues are related. The culture we’ve built in our community is substantially related to our increasing detachment from reality.

There should be no question that the “founding fathers” of TCMA were anything but saints. They had their fair share of negativity. For example, According to Draeger and Smith, the great martial artists in Taiwan during their time "were a truly diverse lot: many were illiterate, some took opium regularly, a few were scoundrels." The description fits well with my experiences with Chan Tai-San and his associates. I’ve even chronicled on the internet the many faces of my late teacher.

However, this diverse lot of scoundrels was also certainly a group of fighters. Whatever antics they associated themselves in, and the list would horrify many new to the tradition, they had fought, they actively fought, and the definitely had a firm grasp on reality. Without exception, the “old generation” cross trained. They learned many styles of Chinese martial art, many learned foreign arts as well. Nationalist pride (and business) now obscures the fact, but in the 20th century the arts of Western boxing and Japanese Judo had HUGE influences upon fighters in both mainland China and Taiwan.

The “old generation” was the epitome of “do as I say, not as I do” but one has to wonder why subsequent generations, particularly Americans, embraced the propaganda so completely? A student studying a system which is in fact a hybrid (pretty much ALL the Chinese martial arts practiced today are hybrids and evolutions of older traditions), under a teacher who himself studied several systems with several teachers (and whose teachings, whether he admits it or not, is influenced by all these experiences) blindly buying into the idea that he is supposed to stay “loyal” and not study anything else with anyone else? The completely laughable idea that certain techniques, no matter how practical and effective, might be “off limits” because they are not “part of the system”?

These things aside, the “old generation” had a variety of other negative habits which subsequent generations; again the Americans in particular, seem to have adopted so eagerly? Before I even met Chan Tai-San, I had done Hung Ga and a few other Chinese martial arts and had spent a good deal of time in the community. In the twenty or so years I spent in the “mo lum” as they call it, I was horrified by the behavior of most “respected masters”. They would all sit at the table with each other, talking about their close friendships and warm admiration. Praise for a teacher’s skill, his legendary exploits, etc would be the talk over tea. As soon as one left the table, even for a brief period, the conversation without exception would turn to the person not present. His dear friends would tear into him. An intense rivalry and fear that someone else’s success somehow negatively affected you was pervasive. Like crabs in a barrel, no one ever got to the top because everyone below you would immediately reach up to pull you down.

I watched this institutionalized in several TCMA federations. Federation meetings with the sole purpose of discussing how to address a member of the community’s success happened frequently. Instructors were told they could not advertise their schools! It was of course always wrapped in the robe of some grand Confucian value, but from a logical point of view it was utter nonsense!

The “old generation” specialized in gossip. Gossip about how much time one had really spent with their teacher, what they had really learned, if they had learned it correctly, etc. In the old days, at least some gossip was flattened by reality. An instructor who had actually beaten up a lot of challengers obviously must have some skill, even if he wasn’t from the “right lineage” or learned the “secret tradition” (blah blah). In the United States, where the federations never sponsored anything resembling real fighting and real challenges were few and far between; gossip about supposed challenges that no one had ever seen, or about a person in the lineage who had actually fought but many years ago (and of course which also on one had actually seen) developed as part of the gossip culture as well. Over the years, words, many of them false, replaced action as the currency of the community.

Making matters even worse, supposed “respected masters” were also masters of PERSONAL gossip, none of which of course was really relevant to martial arts. Gossip about wives/girlfriends/mistresses, failed business dealings, drug habits, and all manner of deplorable back stabbing were common tools in assaulting a person whose only “crime” was that they were also a member of the community! Crabs in a barrel.
In recent years, I’ve seen the internet used to keep tired old rumors from 25 years ago alive and well. American students have eagerly embraced this part of the tradition! Perhaps they’ve even surpassed their instructors in the area of “trash talk”? Yes, the current generation has kept every negative aspect of the TCMA tradition alive and well and perhaps even added to the arsenal. The current generation has of course brought in a lot of the managed martial art mumbo jumbo and added it to the stew. Swamp water tastes bad enough by itself, adding manure from the fields only makes it stink more.

It’s unfortunate that they didn’t dedicate themselves as ardently to the lessons on strength, speed, coordination, and applicable fighting skills? Of all the martial arts traditions, traditional Chinese martial arts has become the one where clearly everyone talks about fighting while almost no one is actually fighting! The community reassures itself with stories about fighters from almost a 100 years ago, many of which we can’t even verify. They seem to forget that simply joining a school doesn’t automatically give you the fighting skills of it’s most famous ancestor.

[street_fighter]

As usual, a great read, and i agree. Just out of curiosity, what do your sanda students think of TCMA, and your articles. Do you ever talk about it with them?

[lkfmdc]

As usual, a great read, and i agree. Just out of curiosity, what do your sanda students think of TCMA, and your articles. Do you ever talk about it with them?

I have a LOT of people who have TCMA backgrounds, even some people of instructor level. They feel they've escaped the BS and are learning how to apply what they learned for real. A guy with wing chun background yesterday had yet again another "revelation" about certain techniques he had been taught to do in forms but had no idea what they were for... happens a lot here :D

The guys who are part of the association read the articles pretty religiously, my "ITP" guys are big on the "theory"

We consider our base CMA.... we believe we use cMA theory and concepts but train in a modern way

[Oso]

well said.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I have a LOT of people who have TCMA backgrounds, even some people of instructor level. They feel they've escaped the BS and are learning how to apply what they learned for real. A guy with wing chun background yesterday had yet again another "revelation" about certain techniques he had been taught to do in forms but had no idea what they were for... happens a lot here :D

The guys who are part of the association read the articles pretty religiously, my "ITP" guys are big on the "theory"

We consider our base CMA.... we believe we use cMA theory and concepts but train in a modern way

Sounds great. Interesting read. But I'm curious as to whether you think this is a cultural thing or a martial arts thing. I used to live in the foriegn students dorm during college, and all the Chinese students said that the gossip/backstabbing thing that goes on is part of the culture. Everyone does it. You have a private face, and a public face. Rarely does anyone cause you to lose face in public, when you're present. But when you're not there, you're fair game. What do you think? You're more familiar with it than I.

Also: how long did you train in Lama Pai? And do you currently use Lama Pai techniques in San Da? Or do you practice (for lack of a better word), general (perhaps practical/broad based is better?) techniques, more like what we see from pro Sanda fighters?

[lkfmdc]

I'm curious as to whether you think this is a cultural thing or a martial arts thing. I used to live in the foriegn students dorm during college, and all the Chinese students said that the gossip/backstabbing thing that goes on is part of the culture. Everyone does it.



Not to be offensive, really, but does it matter? If it's the cultural traditions which are to blame, the result is the same; Chinese martial arts is full of gossip and back stabbing, and talking crap behind people's back.....

It's sort of like how ALL Asian martial arts have confucian baggage attached to them that a Western martial art would not.... Western culture has it's own baggage




Also: how long did you train in Lama Pai? And do you currently use Lama Pai techniques in San Da? Or do you practice (for lack of a better word), general (perhaps practical/broad based is better?) techniques, more like what we see from pro Sanda fighters?



I spent 16 years with Chan Tai San, before that I had done Hung Ga for 7 years and some Shuai Jiao. I also went on to study with a lot of related teachers (ie in Lama, Hop Ga, and White Crane)

I've said it MANY TIMES, I still do Lama, I just don't limit myself by the conventions of so-called "tradition"

Essential Lama Pai techniques
1. Chyuhn Choih
2. Kahp Choih
3. So Choih
4. Jyu Geng paau
5. Bahk Hok Tam Soi
6. Bouh Chou Cham Seh
7. Jyuhn Bin Choih
8. Chaai Teui
9. Fu mei Teui
10. Chang Jeung

They translate pretty clearly into what I do today
1. jabs and crosses
2. overhands
3. hooks
4. uppercuts
5. kicking out the supporting leg
6. leg kicks
7. spin back fist
8. side kick
9. back kick
10. pushing

A LOT of the techniques in the forms are NOT strikes or blocks, they are clinching and throwing movements, which we also train ALL THE TIME

TCMA application, practice and understanding has deterorated significantly in a very short period of time.....

[Shaolin Wookie]

Very cool.

I agree.

[jmd161]

I've said it MANY TIMES, I still do Lama, I just don't limit myself by the conventions of so-called "tradition"

Essential Lama Pai techniques
1. Chyuhn Choih
2. Kahp Choih
3. So Choih
4. Jyu Geng paau
5. Bahk Hok Tam Soi
6. Bouh Chou Cham Seh
7. Jyuhn Bin Choih
8. Chaai Teui
9. Fu mei Teui
10. Chang Jeung

They translate pretty clearly into what I do today
1. jabs and crosses
2. overhands
3. hooks
4. uppercuts
5. kicking out the supporting leg
6. leg kicks
7. spin back fist
8. side kick
9. back kick
10. pushing

A LOT of the techniques in the forms are NOT strikes or blocks, they are clinching and throwing movements, which we also train ALL THE TIME

TCMA application, practice and understanding has deterorated significantly in a very short period of time.....

Ross,

If you still use the techniques and teachings of Chan Tai San, how can you not consider yourself a kung fu guy? Also, how much of your training with CTS would you say was actually applicable?

I've heard the stories of which you speak going on in the chinese community, but I must say, I've never heard any from my sifu. Even the stories of his prowess came from other people and not himself. I have never heard my sifu speak bad of anyone. The only thing i've ever heard him say was he was approached by many bad people in the community all over the US after he first arrived here in the US.

Which is why he doesn't choose to be in the public eye, and why he has friends of over 30yrs that have no idea he knows much less teaches kung fu.

jeff:)

[lkfmdc]

how can you not consider yourself a kung fu guy?



Look at a cross section of opinions just on this board, clearly I am not a kung fu person




Also, how much of your training with CTS would you say was actually applicable?




I've said it many times before, and when I had tea with a bunch of Hing-Dai this week we discussed it again ironicly, CTS was like all TCMA teachers, trapped in the mind set. He did lion dancing, a lot of exotic weapons, had to teach hand sets, those had sets were full of superfluous (big word for the week) stuff.....

If I rolled up a diamond in a pile of clay, the diamond would still be worth the same one you uncovered it, but why cover a diamond in clay?

[jmd161]

I've said it many times before, and when I had tea with a bunch of Hing-Dai this week we discussed it again ironicly, CTS was like all TCMA teachers, trapped in the mind set. He did lion dancing, a lot of exotic weapons, had to teach hand sets, those had sets were full of superfluous (big word for the week) stuff.....

If I rolled up a diamond in a pile of clay, the diamond would still be worth the same one you uncovered it, but why cover a diamond in clay?

I know what you mean.. i've had sifu in the past that were the same, I thought since CTS was a fighter he would've done away with the fluff. My sifu doesn't teach Lion dance, and wasn't interested in learning weapons when he started training. He sought out a sifu that was a fighter because that's what he wanted to learn kung fu for, not all the BS you hear people say. He learned weapons because his sifu made him.

But everything he teaches is geard towards one thing "Fighting" he's very oldschool and has many of the oldschool boys club ways, but he's no nonsense when it comes to fighting. Both sigung and sifu spent their time refining techniques and sifu still does so till this day. I just figured CTS might have taught the sameway.


jeff:)

[WinterPalm]

I'm sure there have always been negative people associated with martial arts. But why focus so much on the negative? I'm sure some of the so-called founding fathers were also pretty good people, good parents, spouses, and teachers. It's unfortunate that you met some nasty sounding people, but there are good people out there as well.
Dedicated students and teachers that are concerned about effective fighting methods and ways of training that maximize one's abilities and techniques.

Some of the "superfluous" things are actually pretty good. Lion Dance teaches you awesome footwork and can serve as a good 20-30 minutes of cardio and stance work if done at a good pace. I won't get into forms because I really think that comes down to the individual's preference.

A lot of the traditions that people rag on are present in other martial arts as well. For instance, in "A Fighter's Heart", Sam Sheridan talks about how various BJJ schools in Brazil would dissasociate people if they trained with another school or forbid it at least as it was seen as rivalres and competition.

What if somebody wanted to cross-train at a muay Thai school from NYSanDa?
People think that this is just a characteristic of TCMA, but that type of thing is prevalent elsewhere. Is it wrong? Not necessarily...but it's silly when people villify TCMA for things that are in many other arts.

[lkfmdc]

But why focus so much on the negative?



Why? Because over the years it has consumed the entire community....




I'm sure some of the so-called founding fathers were also pretty good people, good parents, spouses, and teachers.



Both personal experience AND history tell us that this is a white-wash fantasy for people to feel good about martial arts. Logically speaking, upstanding members of society don't dedicate their lives to learning how to kill people in close quarters combat.....



Lion Dance teaches you awesome footwork and can serve as a good 20-30 minutes of cardio and stance work if done at a good pace.



:rolleyes:

Answers like that are precisely the BS I hate, nothing personal, but people try and justify things in the most ridiculous ways. Yeah, lion dance, what a work out. That's what the pro fighters in Thailand should be doing instead of wasting time on the heavy bags and Thai pads :rolleyes:

[WinterPalm]

Why? Because over the years it has consumed the entire community....

There are still good people though. Maybe I don't get out enough. But I'm sure there are lots of good people out there.


Both personal experience AND history tell us that this is a white-wash fantasy for people to feel good about martial arts. Logically speaking, upstanding members of society don't dedicate their lives to learning how to kill people in close quarters combat.....

I'm not to familiar with the history...but I'm sure that in China there were some people that weren't criminals that wanted to learn how to protect themselves in an effecient way.

:rolleyes:

Answers like that are precisely the BS I hate, nothing personal, but people try and justify things in the most ridiculous ways. Yeah, lion dance, what a work out. That's what the pro fighters in Thailand should be doing instead of wasting time on the heavy bags and Thai pads :rolleyes:

There is nothing to justify. I'm just saying that I get a great workout from Lion Dance. Do I think it is fighting? No, not at all. But I don't do kung fu just for the fighting. I think Thai pads and the heavy bag are great. Thai boxers should continue to do whatever they do that makes them successful. I didn't state there was anything wrong with this stuff.

I think you need to calm down a bit...you seem very angry. I'm not trying to white-wash anything, just telling you that it is ridiculous for you to generalize to the entire history of Chinese martial artists as criminals. I'm pretty sure a lot of people would agree with me.

[lkfmdc]

I think you need to calm down a bit...you seem very angry.



pprojection, I am not angry in the least, I MAKE people angry because I call things as they are and don't pull punches



I'm not trying to white-wash anything,



sure you are, but what's sad is you don't ever realize you are doing it



just telling you that it is ridiculous for you to generalize to the entire history of Chinese martial artists as criminals.



criminals, revolutionaries, military, marginalized and unwanted aspects of society at large.... again, explain why a confucian scholar with a degree and gov't post is wasting time learning how to fight with weapons and close quarters? Easy answer, HE DID NOT




I'm pretty sure a lot of people would agree with me.



Yeah, there is a flat earth society and holocaust deniers as well, people buy into all sorts of stuff

If my posts bother you so much, don't read them

[SifuAbel]

CTS did lion dance because it was part of his culture and spirituality. He, at least, had some class. Too bad it didn't rub off. :rolleyes:

You do sound bitter. Gossip has beat all to do with CMA. It's human nature. People do it all over the world. Plant a microphone at your next party. I'm sure you'll be surprised what your friends have to say about you.

Of all of the this ranting, only this makes sense.
I am not sure what is packaged and sold today as “tradition” has very much to do with what TCMA fighters were doing in China 150 years ago. Today’s “traditional kung fu” has about as much to do with reality as John Wayne movies have to do with the real American frontier!

Perhaps its not a "modern" way you are approaching your training now, but the traditional way.

[lkfmdc]

Abel talking about class :rolleyes:

[SifuAbel]

I call it as I see it, sunshine. :cool:

[DPL]

I am interested in what works and in the most efficient way to teach my students.

Cool, me too.


Today’s “traditional kung fu” has about as much to do with reality as John Wayne movies have to do with the real American frontier!


Easy to say, don't necessarily disagree with you, but please elaborate. Are you talking about just a lack of focus on fighting or is it more a general characterization of all 'modern' TCMA training methods and approaches such as the focus on forms, etc.? You spend a lot of time talking about gossip/culture and not so much about this, which is what I'm more interested in.


The “old generation” was the epitome of “do as I say, not as I do” but one has to wonder why subsequent generations, particularly Americans, embraced the propaganda so completely?

Because Americans in general have a stunningly deep need not only to BELIEVE in something, but to feel that what they choose to believe is the ONE TRUE THING to believe and that you have to take that one true thing literally.


A student studying a system which is in fact a hybrid (pretty much ALL the Chinese martial arts practiced today are hybrids and evolutions of older traditions), under a teacher who himself studied several systems with several teachers (and whose teachings, whether he admits it or not, is influenced by all these experiences) blindly buying into the idea that he is supposed to stay “loyal” and not study anything else with anyone else? The completely laughable idea that certain techniques, no matter how practical and effective, might be “off limits” because they are not “part of the system”?

Can't really speak to this as my teachers don't mind cross-training, and actually actively encourage it. Our teacher's been talking to a BJJ guy about coming in - hopefully it starts this week.


The “old generation” specialized in gossip.

The gossip thing seems to really have struck a discordant note with you, but I see quite a bit less gossip in the art I'm practicing now than I did when I was studying Shorin-Ryu. Or, for that matter, what I see at work or family reunions. It's all human.


In recent years, I’ve seen the internet used to keep tired old rumors from 25 years ago alive and well. American students have eagerly embraced this part of the tradition! Perhaps they’ve even surpassed their instructors in the area of “trash talk”?

Agreed to the extent that I was amazed at the level of vitriol on the Internet between students of different styles, and sometimes the same style, when I first started reading this forum and others. You get jaded to it, though.


It’s unfortunate that they didn’t dedicate themselves as ardently to the lessons on strength, speed, coordination, and applicable fighting skills? Of all the martial arts traditions, traditional Chinese martial arts has become the one where clearly everyone talks about fighting while almost no one is actually fighting!

Again, can't speak to this as we spend a considerable amount of time on sparring and practicing applications. Not as much as I would like, but that's more because our teacher has a day job and a family and only has time for a couple classes a week.

I've read other posts you've made and you seem like a knowledgeable guy and definitely have far more experience than I do, but it feels like your disgust with the culture is more of what led to your disgust with TCMA methods, rather than the other way around. Is that an appropriate assumption?

[Royal Dragon]

Is Ross disgusted with TCMA methods? or does he just focus on the ones that work best?

[lkfmdc]

Is Ross disgusted with TCMA methods? or does he just focus on the ones that work best?

RD, they'll simply never get it.......

[SifuAbel]

Save the violins, please. We get what you're trying to sell just fine. :rolleyes:

Some of us just think you are throwing the baby out with the bath water.

[David Jamieson]

You could look at it this way Dave, if not for tcma, you wouldn't have a clue what San Da is and you wouldn't have even begun to look into what works and what may not work for you in context to actual martiality.

To not "get" where you came from is to have very little idea in the way of where you're going.

also, it's ok to be wrong, in fact, sometimes it's preferable because the line is drawn and you now have the opportunity to make the correction and after doing so are further able to help others when they are also wrong. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Since I never bothered with ANY if the internals or politics of any of the systems I have trained in, I never really paid attention to the BS that goes with them.
Politics is a fact of life in everything, MA is no exception.
Lineages are totally irrelevant to me.
If you can show me something new or useful, will learn from you if you are willing to teach.
Period.
Maybe because I never stayed that long at a school, not in terms of 10 years + in one given system alone, I was never exposed to the inner crap that most organizations have, though I have seen it in the case of Kyokushin and even to a small extent in the Kodokan.
In TKD it was really bad when the ITF and WTF were trying to round kick each other in the bladder.
Never cared for the gossip or stores of yesteryear.

I don't think that TMA are bad, heck boxing and judo are TMA.
I don't think that TMA training is bad, kyokushin full contact training is traditional.

I think that, when the politics and the "prestige" start taking front stage, you get a lot of crap everywhere.

[DPL]

RD, they'll simply never get it.......

Okay, pretend for a minute that I've not read every single thing you've ever wrote on the subject. Could you then answer the questions I posed earlier? I'll clarify:

You talk about 'traditional kung fu' and how it's so inefficient, but you never specify what you're talking about other than to say there's not an acceptable focus on fighting. Since most CMA schools do work on fighting, many full-contact, and work on applications, and since you seem like an intelligent guy, I have to assume there's more to it than that.

You also say you still do Lama Pai but you don't let yourself be limited by the conventions of 'so-called tradition', but you never describe what conventions you're talking about.

I'm honestly curious - what are you specifically referencing when you talk about the 'traditional' aspects of kung fu that are so unacceptable? Also, what did you get disgusted with first - the negative gossip culture or your training?

Thanks.

[David Jamieson]

I think the real issue is whether or not one is prepared to go with trends and fads or stick with what they're doing.

when enough people get on your nerves about what you're doing, some people buckle and go with the flow. others stay the course.

there's room for everything and if what you have is working for all intents and purposes in context to where you're at, then keep doing it and don't worry about what the din of voices are shouting.

let them do their thing. It's their thing.

[WinterPalm]

pprojection, I am not angry in the least, I MAKE people angry because I call things as they are and don't pull punches

I don't think so! You just seem to be blanketing every Chinese martial artist in the same category...as criminal or underhanded...is that a bit unfair? You aren't calling things as they are...you're calling them as you see them.

sure you are, but what's sad is you don't ever realize you are doing it

That's just it, I'm not. I'm not saying there weren't criminal elements, but I'm saying that not all of them were. I'm being moderate and fair here

criminals, revolutionaries, military, marginalized and unwanted aspects of society at large.... again, explain why a confucian scholar with a degree and gov't post is wasting time learning how to fight with weapons and close quarters? Easy answer, HE DID NOT

What if he wanted to protect his family? Do you actually believe that in all the history of China there are no stand-up people that were good at martial arts? That's silly!


Yeah, there is a flat earth society and holocaust deniers as well, people buy into all sorts of stuff

Don't put me into that group...
If my posts bother you so much, don't read them

They don't bother me...I'm guessing you post garbage like this to get people upset. But it was so ridiculous I had to call you on it. Sorry if all your experiences were with bad people...there are good ones though!



After all that is sad and done. Are we to believe that all the good martial artists on this board are bad people? How about sport fighters?
Let's go to Randy Couture and tell him that only a scoundrel could ever be good at what he does...he'd laugh in your face. It's silly.
Sorry if a dose of moderate reality offends you or makes you upset...

[lkfmdc]

After all that is sad and done. Are we to believe that all the good martial artists on this board are bad people? How about sport fighters?
Let's go to Randy Couture and tell him that only a scoundrel could ever be good at what he does...he'd laugh in your face. It's silly.
Sorry if a dose of moderate reality offends you or makes you upset...

LMFAO.... do you really think before you post?

We were talking about martial artists in China, particularly in the "old days"

What relationship does Randy Couture, a WRESTLER, have to do with the "old guard" in TCMA? :rolleyes:

Like I said, people get really uncomfortable and defensive when you challenge the safety of their preconceptions.... martial arts are like religion, question their faith and the frothing at the mouth begins

If you don't want to believe me, if you want to dismiss me, if you think it's all bunk, here's a radical idea IGNORE ME....

More than enough people understand what I'm talking about and AGREE with it

[WinterPalm]

In post #12 you said this:

Logically speaking, upstanding members of society don't dedicate their lives to learning how to kill people in close quarters combat.....

And then in post #14 you said this:

criminals, revolutionaries, military, marginalized and unwanted aspects of society at large.... again, explain why a confucian scholar with a degree and gov't post is wasting time learning how to fight with weapons and close quarters? Easy answer, HE DID NOT

So normal people didn't learn martial arts in China? People that wanted to defend themselves?
Why would no non-criminal type learn this stuff in China? That's a pretty big assumption!

So only nowadays decent people learn martial arts? Give me a break! It's the same difference: why would a guy with a business degree and a great job want to learn close quarters combat?

I fully believe there were all sorts of criminal types involved and probably in many cases still are. I personally think the adoption of some sort of ethical codes has been a good thing in many cases.

I'm not frothing or anything. You make many good points but I disagree with you when you say everyone that did kung fu in China was some sort of criminal. I think that's a romantic idea of the shadowy history, but I'm willing to bet many were good people that wanted to protect themselves and those around them.

If you don't want to believe me, if you want to dismiss me, if you think it's all bunk, here's a radical idea IGNORE ME....

I don't believe you entirely but I think dialogue can help an understanding especically when you make such blanket statements. If I wanted to dismiss you I would put you on ignore. I'm just calling you on these things you've said.

[lkfmdc]

So normal people didn't learn martial arts in China? People that wanted to defend themselves?
Why would no non-criminal type learn this stuff in China? That's a pretty big assumption!


It's not an assumption, it is a FACT

You have demonstrated that you were woefully uneducated as to the history and culture of China, as are many who do TCMA in this country. That's why people buy the bunk, they are ignorant (ignorant doesn't mean stupid, go look up the difference)

I hate to hold it over your head, but I TAUGHT Chinese history at the university level, I'd say I have a better grasp of the FACTS than you do when it comes to these realities

[Dragonzbane76]

/Eats popcorn while watching the entertainment.

[DPL]

/Eats popcorn while watching the entertainment.

/eats a snack while patiently waiting for lkfmdc to answer my questions...

[lkfmdc]

you talk about 'traditional kung fu' and how it's so inefficient, but you never specify what you're talking about other than to say there's not an acceptable focus on fighting.



I've written volumes on what is wrong with TCMA today.... but how about a short course?

Time wasted on forms, time wasted on weapons, time wasted on lion dancing, applicatons based upon unrealistic suppositions (like bridging), lack oif conditining, lack of realistic ground fighting, infatuation with chi, infatuation with dim mak, lack of "testing" of skills.....



Since most CMA schools do work on fighting, many full-contact, and work on applications,


I go to fighting events at least once a month. I sponsor a national event once a year. I've been doing this for over 10 years. I don't see many TCMA based schools actually fighting...

Today, most of the TCMA events only offer point sparring. When San Da is offered, turn out is small.

I don't see TCMA people doing Muay Thai or MMA?

I do see a lot of talk about fighting.... very little actual fighting...



You also say you still do Lama Pai but you don't let yourself be limited by the conventions of 'so-called tradition', but you never describe what conventions you're talking about.



if by now you aren't getting the idea..... :rolleyes:



Also, what did you get disgusted with first - the negative gossip culture or your training?



I continued to grow, I evolved, I grew up and left childish things behind....

[DPL]

Thanks for the response.

It leaves me wondering, though, at the disconnect between depictions of the 'old masters', who folks generally agree could fight well, even as described in your first post, and these old fighters being caught up in 'tradition' which is so ineffective.

The tradition you're talking about appears to be no fighting, no application, lots of forms and mysticism. But that tradition came from these guys who were good fighters, according to you. There's a disconnect there.

Are you saying that you've improved on what you were taught, with cross-training? I'm not sure of the appropriateness of the question, and if it's not appropriate just ignore it, but do you feel you've surpassed your old master in fighting skill?

I think it's an interesting question because the attitude you see very often in both CMA and JMA is that we'll never achieve the levels of skill of the 'ancients', or even of a couple of generations ago, because they practiced 8-12 hours a day, etc.

MMA practitioners seem to feel that they're improving on TMA, but at the same time whenever you see an MMA talk about a TMA that they admire, they're sure to point out that the TMA cross-trained and was a good fighter, which is obviously a logical problem when in the same breath the MMA is bashing the methods the TMA used to achieve skill.

Mostly just thinking into the keyboard but would enjoy seeing thoughts on this.

[lkfmdc]

It leaves me wondering, though, at the disconnect between depictions of the 'old masters', who folks generally agree could fight well, even as described in your first post, and these old fighters being caught up in 'tradition' which is so ineffective.



There are several things to consider

1) However you quantify their ability to fight, it could have been better if they hadn't been constrained by their traditions

2) As I also said in my first post, the "old guard" did things differently than a lot of people assume, and a lot differently that what we now call "traditional"

3) Perhaps most importantly of all, consider how the "old guard" trained. Most started at young ages. Most practiced many hours, every day. IE If 50% of their training was ineffective, maybe 50% was effective. But if they did 45 hours a week, they were doing 22 and 1/2 hours of effective training.

Today? HOw many hours does the modern student practice?
If you are doing 3 one hour classes a week, time is much better spent NOT doing forms and other stuff of that sort



The tradition you're talking about appears to be no fighting, no application, lots of forms and mysticism. But that tradition came from these guys who were good fighters, according to you. There's a disconnect there.


IN the "old days" they didn't have sparring, but they had a lot of fighting, and the bad ones often got killed off... in the past 50 years or so, a lot less of this sort of fighting... so a lot of the bad lived on and spread (like a fungus)

Still plenty of mystical BS spread around. I know an old "internal" teacher. He spent 20 years hitting a heavy sand bag every day with three basic punches yet teaches his students that power comes from "chi" :rolleyes:

[jmd161]

Like I said, people get really uncomfortable and defensive when you challenge the safety of their preconceptions.... martial arts are like religion, question their faith and the frothing at the mouth begins


Ross,


I agree that people get bent out of shape about their preconceptions when it comes to martial arts and religion. I don't think that's really the issue here though. I think people are a bit confused because you post threads and post about Chan Tai Sans prowess and his using his skill in real combat and wars, and then pretty much kick his memory in the teeth with other stuff you spit out about kung fu and it's in-effectivness.

You even go to the point of talking about fluff he taught. In one sentence you praise him for his real deal skill with kung fu and how he actually applied his kung fu, and taught no nonsense kung fu, then in the next breath you're talking about un-applicable fluff he taught you.:confused:


That's why I think people have so many problems with what you're saying here.

But, that's just my opinion...


jeff:)

[lkfmdc]

I think people are a bit confused because you post threads and post about Chan Tai Sans prowess and his using his skill in real combat and wars, and then pretty much kick his memory in the teeth with other stuff you spit out about kung fu and it's in-effectivness.

You even go to the point of talking about fluff he taught. In one sentence you praise him for his real deal skill with kung fu and how he actually applied his kung fu, and taught no nonsense kung fu, then in the next breath you're talking about un-applicable fluff he taught you.:confused:

That's why I think people have so many problems with what you're saying here.

But, that's just my opinion...


But it doesn't have to be either/or

CTS was a good fighter, for his time and place. At the same time he was mired in his tradition and it's mindset.

He taught a lot of effective stuff, he also taught a lot of crap. The shame was that was in fact how it was! And the bigger shame was how many didn't have the tools to sift through it and find the gems in the slop.

CTS was a good fighter because 1) he trained a very long time and 2) he surived a lot of bad situation and learned by trial and error. He was also the first one to tell you he had many friends who DID NOT live to learn more.... is that the method we aspire to? :rolleyes:

CTS started at the age of 6 and trained hours ever day, no one today has a similar chance to train

[Royal Dragon]

The tradition you're talking about appears to be no fighting, no application, lots of forms and mysticism. But that tradition came from these guys who were good fighters, according to you. There's a disconnect there.

Reply]
The answer is simple, they did not teach thier skills. They taught whatever, and however they had to, to cater to the fantasies of thier students, to make money.

Those students then taught the fantasy curriculem they learned to thier students and it is now assumed that this is the original Tradition. This has been going on for about 4 generations now.

The few who could fight learned how because they lived violent lives, and learned from the hard knocks how to make thier style work. This is why we have all these legends of super fighters of the past, but cannot produce any for our own generation.

[jmd161]

But it doesn't have to be either/or

CTS was a good fighter, for his time and place. At the same time he was mired in his tradition and it's mindset.

He taught a lot of effective stuff, he also taught a lot of crap. The shame was that was in fact how it was! And the bigger shame was how many didn't have the tools to sift through it and find the gems in the slop.

CTS was a good fighter because 1) he trained a very long time and 2) he surived a lot of bad situation and learned by trial and error. He was also the first one to tell you he had many friends who DID NOT live to learn more.... is that the method we aspire to? :rolleyes:

CTS started at the age of 6 and trained hours ever day, no one today has a similar chance to train


Ok, I get where you're coming from now.

My sifu is part of the oldboys club also. The thing I like is while he won't compromise training he has changed and mellowed in other areas. He's not big on all the hiding until he knows you're a serious student crap, and he refuses to teach fluff. The only thing with sifu is you get nothing new until you've perfected the last stuff he gave you, no exceptions.

He understands that people don't have the option to train night and day like they did in his era, so he teaches from day one fighting apps, but you better show some promise or it's good bye. Once he senses you're not training on a regular basis it's lights out. He says people won't have the chance to train like they did, but they can still get good, if they train hard and properly. So in that since he doesn't spare the rod.

jeff:)

[cjurakpt]

a few observations:

Chan Tai San, everything else aside, was from "the streets"; he was a survivor; in a way, his kung fu was besides the point: he was a crazy, mean SOB who mixed it up for most of his life - so the "technique" end of it was almost an after thought, in a way - in fact, it probably helped him as much in terms of livlihood as it did fighting

another thing - when talking about fighting for real, he always emphasized that using weapons was preferrable (one time he asked us where he could get a gun - in our naiivity, we asked him why he needed one, since his kung fu was so good - he was like "kung fu's not much good against a group of people attacking you - guns are"); so consider that a lot of "old school" fighting, when it was real, was based on usign the most efficeint means to kil lsomeone - preferrably by surprise, with a weapon and superior numbers;

by the time we all started training with him, he still had the attitude, but just wasn't getting into fights as much as he had been earlier in his life; the point is that he did what he did to get by - a lot of what he taught was "fluff" because it kept his rice bowl filled - not because he was trying to cheat you, but because this was how he fed himself his whole life - he got it that a lot of people were not fighters like he was, and that there were plenty of "weekend warriors" around who would pay good $$$ to collect forms - so he tapped his knowledge base and gave the consumer what they wanted, which, I believe, he genuinely thought was ok - just giving people what they were asking for (of ourse, he did jerk a few people around for sure, but typically they came in with attitude to begin with); it's not different than what Yang Lu Chan did with taiji...also, the part about the Confucian scholar not wanting to fight - well, not for real at least - so a lot of TCMA teachers tried to upgrade their social image, by injecting a lot fo Confucian or Taoist or Buddhist stuff into their rts, or by passing themselves off as doctors / herbalists - basically trying to gentrify TCMA for the middle and elite classes (YLC taught in the home of a Mandarin noble - ever wonder why taiji has the "empty punch"? look at their finger nails...)

also, my obsevation is that, as far as actual fighting, his repetoire was much more limited than all the forms he taught - there were certain bsic themes he always came back to again and again when he was describing how to really fight - the way he taught staff apps was a great example - a few solid principles with variations...

I personally and firmly believe that CTS would have NO problem with what Dave is doing, and in fact would be very much a fan of MMA in general - he was alway pro good technique, he didn't care where it came from - if he were alive today in his prime, he'd be getting a BJJ black belt (like how he integrated western boxing into his aresenal when he was exposed to it) - I personally think that Dave is doing his Sifu proud by evolving and surviving, and I give him credit for having the guts to break out of the very comfortable mold of "traditional" sifu because he saw the reality of what is (same props to my sihing Mike Parella on that too)

you can stick your head in the sand and cry "tradition", or you can look and see what is going on; gone are the days of saying my style is better because of this technique or this teacher - there are now many venues to go and test your art under extremely adverse conditions (and the argument "since I can't use such-and-such techniques in the ring and I'd be at a disadvantage" is crap - it's not about eye gouges and throat rips - it's about footwork, timing, positioning, etc. - you can turn that eye jab into a legal technique easily - what you can't do is get into a good position if you never train against resisting opponents who are unencumbered by a particualr "style")

the "old school" TCMA community is a dinosaur - it's about ready to wander into a tar pit any moment, because people aren't going to buy the hype any more - too many of us have seen the man behind the curtain...

BTW, those of you offering your opinions about how what we write reflects on our sifu - spend a day, even an hour with the man - you'd never mention it again...

JA CHIGGY!!!

[cjurakpt]

Some of us just think you are throwing the baby out with the bath water.

the baby in this case is crippled, blind, dumb, deaf, mute, mentaly retarded and quite possibly autistic with some serious OCD tendancies; the bathwater has more relevance; just let Darwin have his due...

[jmd161]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I understand a lot more now, than I did before. I can't say i've always followed these threads on Chan Tai San because they were usually so many pages long by the time I came across them.

I understand about fluff and giving people what they want, that doesn't mean one had to give into that cash cow though. My sifu will never feed you all that kung fu is this and that crap, he tells you how it is. He also tells you that he wasn't always the person he is today. On many occations in just the almost 6yrs i've been with him, he's had many a chance to milk the cash cow himself. He has always declined. He was offered 5,000 by someone to learn our 9 Armed Grinder dummy form, just the form and refused.

Maybe he had more going for him in education or up bringing than CTS, since you say he was from the streets. I guess I'm pointing to you don't have to teach fluff to the masses and lose your soul unless that's your only option. From what you guys are saying I guess that was his only option. My sifu is a person that stresses crosstraining as well, he believes all styles have something to offer. I'm not saying that what Ross does is wrong, but couldn't he have done the samething teaching Lama Pai and leaving out the fluff?

The stories we hear are that TCMA always evolved, if people are walking away from it and doing away with old customs like exchanging knowledge, where does that leave styles like Lama Pai and Hak Fu Mun which are rare in a generation or two?

Why can't people like Ross with his experience and knowledge continue the custom of TCMA evolving by using what he's learned and teaching Lama Pai from a totally fighting perspective? Teach less forms and more application, so the style doesn't die with you the students CTS passed his teachings on to?


jeff:)

[jmd161]

I'm just asking... when do we give back for the blessing that was bestowed on some of us, for the great sifu we've had? I know I feel blessed to have met my sifu, he is more than a teacher, he has helped me in life in so many ways. Even when I was unemployed, he provided me with money to pay my bills.


I can never thank this man enough, then the knowledge and experience he has shared with me is priceless. I know i'm guilty of sifu worship, but this guy has been a second father to me, not just a teacher.


jeff:)

[cjurakpt]

it's easy to say what if, to project our romantic value system of how we would like things to be; my current sifu is the same way as what you describe - you could offer him a million bucks to teach you something, and he'd most likely show you the door (he's the only person in the TCMA world I know who gave someone a refund after that person trained for 2 months, didn't like what they were doing and asked for their money back - he couldn't give it to the guy fast enough to get rid of him for good!); the thing is though, even though this is how he supports his family, he does it by choice - even though he is also from the streets of Chinatown, he is Princeton educated, and passed up several promising career paths to do what he does; so he can "afford" to have a "higher" moral standard; CTS was a product of his environment, and lived under the threat of never knowing where his next meal might be coming from - even when he had lots of steady paying students he still acted out of this habit (PTSD, f you ask me...)

as far as what Dave has done, he is in essence teaching Lama with the fluff gone, both in terms of the training approach and techniques - surisingly enough, when you do it this way, it starts looking a great deal like sanda! and because it doesn't look like what Lama is supposed to look like, well, now he's a sellout, traitor, etc.

don't get stuck in your presuppositions about the stle dying and not getting passed on - if you filter out the fluff and the end rpoduct is what works, that's what's going to get passed on - Darwin at his best! the stuff that didn't make the cut? what's the point of holding onto it if it doesn't work? the only "point" is that you still hold onto the belife (not you personally) that there is something hidden secretly in the forms that will one day be rediscoverd, as long as the forms are passed down intact long enough until someone figures it out...otherwise, you are doing it purely for the sake of tradition, which is fine in and of itself (hence the term martial ART) - just don't expect that it will help with fighting...

[jmd161]

cjurakpt,




If I may ask, what style are you currently training in?



just curious..


Hak Fu Mun has a strong Lama influence.



jeff:)

[cjurakpt]

I'm just asking... when do we give back for the blessing that was bestowed on some of us, for the great sifu we've had? I know I feel blessed to have met my sifu, he is more than a teacher, he has helped me in life in so many ways. Even when I was unemployed, he provided me with money to pay my bills.
I can never thank this man enough, then the knowledge and experience he has shared with me is priceless. I know i'm guilty of sifu worship, but this guy has been a second father to me, not just a teacher.
jeff:)

I owe my current sifu my life in a way - when I was at an all time low, he spent ~ 5 years helping me get myself together and moving beyond a lot of habitual patterns of my life; i was very lucky to meet him, simple as that; I am forever greatful; at the same time, no matter what he offered me, I was still the one who chose to accept it...and in fact, he would be very happy if I forgot that he ever was part of my life; I really owe him absolutely nothing, because he gave me nothing - more like he took things away...now I tell him I don't believe a word he tells me and he is very happy...

giving back happens many different ways: my si jie cleaned his house 2x a week for many years, just because she felt great joy doing so: since that job was taken, I offered to "clean" him, and so I did bodywork for him and his family for years, and still do when time permits; it can mean brining him a box of fruit from where you work (one old acquaintance did that for his teacher all the time); giving back can also mean coming into your own as a practitioner; just see clearly for yourself - what is the true nature of your relatinship with him? and act out of that, spontaneously and you will find the "right thing" to do in your particular case

BTW, my techer also is waaaay out of the Chinatown BS; in fact, his mother used to work in the gambling den of a certain famous Chinatown sifu, who shall remain namless, who used to stage robberies to get all of his guest's valuables...

[jmd161]

Ahh ok



Thanks!






jeff:)

[jmd161]

I owe my current sifu my life in a way - when I was at an all time low, he spent ~ 5 years helping me get myself together and moving beyond a lot of habitual patterns of my life; i was very lucky to meet him, simple as that; I am forever greatful; at the same time, no matter what he offered me, I was still the one who chose to accept it...and in fact, he would be very happy if I forgot that he ever was part of my life; I really owe him absolutely nothing, because he gave me nothing - more like he took things away...now I tell him I don't believe a word he tells me and he is very happy...

giving back happens many different ways: my si jie cleaned his house 2x a week for many years, just because she felt great joy doing so: since that job was taken, I offered to "clean" him, and so I did bodywork for him and his family for years, and still do when time permits; it can mean brining him a box of fruit from where you work (one old acquaintance did that for his teacher all the time); giving back can also mean coming into your own as a practitioner; just see clearly for yourself - what is the true nature of your relatinship with him? and act out of that, spontaneously and you will find the "right thing" to do in your particular case

BTW, my techer also is waaaay out of the Chinatown BS; in fact, his mother used to work in the gambling den of a certain famous Chinatown sifu, who shall remain namless, who used to stage robberies to get all of his guest's valuables...


Wow!

Agreed you're right! giving back can be done so many ways.


All my sifu asks is I stay off the computer and train:D But this is my only relief because I work so much. Otherwise It would be my job on my mind 24 hrs a day
I can get away by talking about kung fu.


jeff:)

[SifuAbel]

the baby in MY case is crippled, blind, dumb, deaf, mute, mentaly retarded and quite possibly autistic with some serious OCD tendancies; the bathwater has more relevance; just let Darwin have his due...

fixed.......

[cjurakpt]

I need to be fixed.......

just thinking about all the little b@stard monkeys who would be otherwise running around...

[Pork Chop]

... Yeah, lion dance, what a work out. That's what the pro fighters in Thailand should be doing instead of wasting time on the heavy bags and Thai pads :rolleyes:

Actually that was my favorite part about doing kung fu in DC.
Every chinese new year, there was a good chance some school would be lion dancing on our "turf" and we'd have an excuse to kick their drum, kick their lion head, or (more importantly) kick them.
Lion dance was actually banned in HK for a while due to violence.
There are a good number of newspaper articles about it; was just reading one the other day about Lam Jo and some Choy Lay Fut school getting into it back in the day.

[lkfmdc]

Actually that was my favorite part about doing kung fu in DC.
Every chinese new year, there was a good chance some school would be lion dancing on our "turf" and we'd have an excuse to kick their drum, kick their lion head, or (more importantly) kick them.
Lion dance was actually banned in HK for a while due to violence.
There are a good number of newspaper articles about it; was just reading one the other day about Lam Jo and some Choy Lay Fut school getting into it back in the day.

I have three friends who have never trained martial arts a day in their lives yet get into the current equivalent of kicking a lion head pretty much every Friday night, hardly something to aspire to

[WinterPalm]

It's not an assumption, it is a FACT

You have demonstrated that you were woefully uneducated as to the history and culture of China, as are many who do TCMA in this country. That's why people buy the bunk, they are ignorant (ignorant doesn't mean stupid, go look up the difference)

I hate to hold it over your head, but I TAUGHT Chinese history at the university level, I'd say I have a better grasp of the FACTS than you do when it comes to these realities

And through all your knowledge you have yet to come across a Chinese martial artist that wasn't a criminal or somehow associated with mercenaries or whatever?

You are right that I am ignorant of China, but I find fault with statements that blanket all of the Chinese martial artists as underworld type characters.

Props for teaching at the university level...so let me guess, this is like saying I have a black sash so I must be right??:D:cool:

[lkfmdc]

I am just gonna start calling you Cleopatra, ok.....

[Pork Chop]

I have three friends who have never trained martial arts a day in their lives yet get into the current equivalent of kicking a lion head pretty much every Friday night, hardly something to aspire to

Well, we weren't quite to the point of hiding knives under the tail..... though we did have a blade taped to the horn of one.

I dunno, it was fun.
And the kicking stuff was within the context of the dance so it had a certain flair.
I remember taking a kicking shield outside and practicing a few of the moves while in the lion- both head and tail techniques.

It's not the pinnacle of martial arts by any means, but it was fun, and there was some fighting going on.

Things slowed down after chinese new year 2003 when one of the groups complained to the chinese benevolent association hosting the event.
Tried to get us banned for 3 years.

I didn't mean my statement as undermining your promotion of sport fighting as the new direction for martial arts, because I think it's the way to go- especially if you want to see if your stuff actually works. I'm just saying I had fun with the lion, that I'm grateful for the experience, and kinda sad to see it go- even if the only effective part of it is likely to get you arrested.

[SifuAbel]

just thinking about all the little b@stard lamas who would be otherwise running around...


fixed......

[Vash]

I understand there's a little bit of tension. If we could, though, try and keep stuff civil, and on-topic. Thanks.

[cjurakpt]

just thinking about all the little b@stard lamas who would be otherwise running around...

exactly why it needed to be "fixed" - social Darwinsims at its best

I think they actually used Occam's razor to do the procedure!:p

[cjurakpt]

I understand there's a little bit of tension. If we could, though, try and keep stuff civil, and on-topic. Thanks.

no worries - I have nothing against Rudy personally (I may be one of the few remaining!), we fling some poo at each other every now and again, it never seems to stick though...

[SifuAbel]

no worries - I have nothing against Rudy personally (I may be one of the few remaining!), we fling some poo at each other every now and again, it never seems to stick on him though. On me, it forms a brown crusty shell I use as armor.


Fixed.......

[SifuAbel]

he also taught a lot of crap.

simply amazing.

[Black Jack II]

simply amazing.

Why is that simply amazing???

[lkfmdc]

Increasingly, Rudy Abel comes off as a bitter, sour old man with a big chip on his shoulder. Do we need mention the quajillion page thread that basicly goes "I know you are but what am I!" :rolleyes:

Sure, Chinese martial arts is perfect, has no flaws and is invincible. The teachers never held back, or lied, or cheated, and can walk on water. Come on, even Rudy knows the truth here... it's a state of denial, because people whose time was wasted in the classical mess don't want to deal with that reality

Keep posting Rudy, I don't care, a lot of people don't care, if it makes you feel better, more power to you

[sanjuro_ronin]

Increasingly, Rudy Abel comes off as a bitter, sour old man with a big chip on his shoulder. Do we need mention the quajillion page thread that basicly goes "I know you are but what am I!" :rolleyes:

Sure, Chinese martial arts is perfect, has no flaws and is invincible. The teachers never held back, or lied, or cheated, and can walk on water. Come on, even Rudy knows the truth here... it's a state of denial, because people whose time was wasted in the classical mess don't want to deal with that reality

Keep posting Rudy, I don't care, a lot of people don't care, if it makes you feel better, more power to you

While I am not one of them, many people are very happy with their classical mess and make it work quite well for them.

[lkfmdc]

While I am not one of them, many people are very happy with their classical mess and make it work quite well for them.

if that's true, then they don't need to biotch and moan on my threads do they? :rolleyes:

[SifuAbel]

Why is that simply amazing???

Whats simply amazing is that in the not too distant past that man's ****s was pure gold and put on pedestals daily for display. Countless IKF articles were written by said student, of said teacher, of said style for decades.

Now that the man has passed and said student's credibility is no longer dependent on his teacher we get now that the man taught a lot of crap. IT WASN'T CRAP TO HIM!!!!

All this talk about gossip and the total discarding of his past just suggests to me that the bitter one here is Ross. That he must have found out that his teacher may have said some derogatory things about him behind his back. Otherwise why would we get this huge whine fest over what people say behind other people's backs? This reeks. Your teacher talked behind your back? Too bad, Your weakness is not my problem. Grow up.

No martial art is invincible. I mean NO martial art. Martial arts is not a living entity. People make it work. People are either strong or weak. They either know what they are doing, or they don't. All those people "rediscovering" their MA obviously didn't. Their not being able to be "real" is a totally separate issue.

Where have I stated that CMA in this county is perfect? I'll be the first to say that its full of morons and idiots. Mostly because they don't even know what they have.
As only being a body of knowledge, That ignorance isn't CMA's fault. I totally agree that understanding and application have deteriorated over time. Still, not the fault of the knowledge itself, but the fault of the people.

I'll also agree that the 3 hour a week guy isn't going to benefit from the Majority of the training. This is a total hobbyist. I would be shocked if one of the these level students won a K-1.

[lkfmdc]

Whats simply amazing is that in the not too distant past that man's ****s was pure gold and put on pedestals daily for display. Countless IKF articles were written by said student, of said teacher, of said style for decades.



COmpletely faulty logic. If half of what he taught was crap, half was good, you can celebrate the good while being forthright about the bad. I can hate our president without hating America or the office of the president



Now that the man has passed and said student's credibility is no longer dependent on his teacher we get now that the man taught a lot of crap.



I started teaching what I do in 1996. CTS passed in 2004, do the math. I didn't agree with everything about him for years, and in fact when he was alive we had adamant arguments about it. Arm chair expert you are :rolleyes:



IT WASN'T CRAP TO HIM!!!!



Again, when it came to discussing fighting, much of it was noticably absent. When it came to fighting, he preferred and focussed on a very select amount of material, and he did in fact say that many things "would not work"

again, funny how you are on an expert on things you don't know about :rolleyes:

[SifuAbel]

I started teaching what I do in 1996. CTS passed in 2004, do the math. I didn't agree with everything about him for years, and in fact when he was alive we had adamant arguments about it.

All the rest was BS , so i'll comment on this.

What a shame. He probably felt betrayed. :mad:

[street_fighter]

All the rest was BS , so i'll comment on this.

What a shame. He probably felt betrayed. :mad:

lol, are you being serious?:eek: i really can't tell. i hope your not.

[lkfmdc]

I don't really have a logical or meaningful response, so I'll just post something inflamatory and ridiculous



there, fixed it for you

[lkfmdc]

lol, are you being serious?:eek: i really can't tell. i hope your not.

increasingly, it becomes impossible to take anything old, bitter **** Rudy says

[mantis7]

Now that the man has passed and said student's credibility is no longer dependent on his teacher we get now that the man taught a lot of crap. IT WASN'T CRAP TO HIM!!!!

Abel,

Just because something is not believed to be "crap' by an individual, it does not necessarily make it an more true. I can think that boxing is crap and ineffective but that does not make it so. Ross went through a progression and finally said "**** this doesn't work...how can I make it work?" It's called adaptation and survival.

Ross is admitting, unlike most practioners, that a good protion of what he was taught is useless or just there for asthetics. As far as him claiming that alot of it was inneffective is not defaming his teacher. If it didn't work then it didn't work.

All this talk about gossip and the total discarding of his past just suggests to me that the bitter one here is Ross. That he must have found out that his teacher may have said some derogatory things about him behind his back.

Honestly Able either you don't read what Ross post or you are selective. He has spoken about the good, bad, ugly of his teacher. He understood that his teacher was HUMAN and prone to the same **** we are all. He understands that his teacher was a good man at times, could change in a moments notice, and kick you when you are down. No teacher is beyond their humanity.

You are assuming that he is sour and speaking the truth about his teacher because he was talked about behind his back? He is one of the few people on here willing to talk about stories, real experienced events of their interaction with each other and the gossip surrounding his teacher in NYC kung fu community. He is not sour he is a New Yorker :)


People make it work. People are either strong or weak. They either know what they are doing, or they don't. All those people "rediscovering" their MA obviously didn't.

You can be as strong as you want or weak as a kitten but if a technique does not work then it never will. If you truly knew anything about martial arts as a sport or as a comabt art then you would understand that constant refinment is going on. Refinement as in removing the obsolete and enhancing the items that work. It is a constant rediscovery. for example, most people discovered that using the lunge punch in a self defense scenario is no longer relevant in a society that grew up with boxing.

As only being a body of knowledge, That ignorance isn't CMA's fault. I totally agree that understanding and application have deteriorated over time. Still, not the fault of the knowledge itself, but the fault of the people.

You do understand that a body of knowledge can become tainted over time, right? When this occurs the information has to be broken down to its basic working components and then redeveloped. TCMA is not exempted. CTS is not exempted from it. I think CTS would be proud that his student is taking the time to test what he has and improve on his teacher's lessons.

Victor

[unkokusai]

Where have I stated that CMA in this county is perfect? I'll be the first to say that its full of morons and idiots. .



You're living proof of that.

[cjurakpt]

no worries - I have nothing against Rudy personally (I may be one of the few remaining!), we fling some poo at each other every now and again, it never seems to stick on him though. On me, it forms a brown crusty shell I use as armor.
wow - I must have missed this :eek:

oh well, yeah, I guess your're right Rudy, that's what I really meant to post, thanks for fixing it - yes, everyone on here must laughing at me by now :rolleyes:

[cjurakpt]

What a shame. He probably felt betrayed. :mad:

anyone reading this who actually knew the old man just got more ROTFLMAO time then they know what to do with

dude, stick to topics you know, like the finer points of avine sodomy...

[Black Jack II]

Rudy,

So let me ask you this, in respect to your own teacher or teachers, are you saying that all the methods that they teach are functional and there are no fillers and binders in the material that commonsense dictates are bunk?

Or is it that you just feel that posting about a person's primary instructor's weakness on a open forum is the problem?

[SifuAbel]

If you truly knew anything about martial arts as a sport or as a comabt art then you would understand that constant refinment is going on. Refinement

Refinement? You see refinement? I see a gross dumbing down of an entire body of knowledge. Especially from the waist down. Its evident in that useless technique thread. People putting out vagaries or pointing out the absolute worst examples as the status quo. Usually opinions coming from outside their body of knowledge.

"if you truly knew" is a laughable phrase. Because only you know the "true". :rolleyes:

Personally. I don't give a hoot what you think.

[SifuAbel]

Rudy,

So let me ask you this, in respect to your own teacher or teachers, are you saying that all the methods that they teach are functional and there are no fillers and binders in the material that commonsense dictates are bunk?


Fillers and binders? Because he........... *gasp* ...........taught us sets?!?!?!? :eek:

Oh the humanity!!!!

It never occurred to me that maybe I couldn't bring a Kwan Do into an MMA cage.

Do I think that what was taught was a waste of time? Hell no.

I was one of those few that Ross mentioned earlier. I started at a young age. 12. I put in the hours. I was beat into dust every day and came back for more.

I can't say I did "this" instead of "that". We did everything.

I'm particularly sick and disinterested in what I should be doing to accommodate the 3 hour a week hobby student. Perhaps I should put a rubber bayonet on a plastic M-16 to appease the "modern". :rolleyes:

God!! I am so sick of all this ignorance.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is always a certain amount of "useless" techniques taught in every style, though useless is probably the wrong term, obsolete perhaps?

Those familiar with the Gracie JJ guard pass that almost invited you to get triangled will know what I am refering to as an example of something that seems "useless" or "obsolete" in todays world, yet is still taught by a system that prides itself on development and practicality.

I was taught many a "useless" move in kyokushin, TKD, even in boxing and judo, many moves could be deemed "inpractical" or "obsolete", though I have seen them all used and used will be some.

Context is truly everything.

That said, many things that can be viewed as "not needed" are there for a reason, maybe not a combat oriented one or even practical one, but a reason nevertheless.

[unkokusai]

God!! I am so sick of all this ignorance.


Oh you poor, tortured genius! Cursed to live in a world full of people incapable of appreciating your mastery!


:rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT ME!
I was one of those few that Ross mentioned earlier.
PAY ATTENTION TO ME
I started at a young age. 12.
I WANT EVERY THREAD TO BE ABOUT ME!
I put in the hours. I was beat into dust every day and came back for more.
BLAH BLAH BLAH LOOK AT ME



Attention W hore



I'm particularly sick and disinterested in what I should be doing to accommodate the 3 hour a week hobby student.



That must be why you have a huge, commercially successful school and are making mad loot..... :rolleyes:

[Black Jack II]

Fillers and binders? Because he........... *gasp* ...........taught us sets?!?!?!?

Oh the humanity!!!!

Where did I say anything about sets??

Unless you have blinders on, almost everything within a certain context has some bunk to it, kung fu, bjj, kali, muay thai, what have you.

Arnis and panatuken is part of my background and I can tell you there have been plenty of times when I was doing a Abcedario counter vrs counter drill, and that I thought the specific "set counter" for a specific angle was really out of left field and would not hold up under pressure.

Same goes for the siko and vertical guntings that one see's in filipino boxing, the core movements are good but some of them out of the box get a little dicey when people start throwing jabs and don't let you chase them into the corto zone.

[John Takeshi]

Fillers and binders? Because he........... *gasp* ...........taught us sets?!?!?!? :eek:

Oh the humanity!!!!

It never occurred to me that maybe I couldn't bring a Kwan Do into an MMA cage.

Do I think that what was taught was a waste of time? Hell no.

I was one of those few that Ross mentioned earlier. I started at a young age. 12. I put in the hours. I was beat into dust every day and came back for more.

I can't say I did "this" instead of "that". We did everything.

I'm particularly sick and disinterested in what I should be doing to accommodate the 3 hour a week hobby student. Perhaps I should put a rubber bayonet on a plastic M-16 to appease the "modern". :rolleyes:

God!! I am so sick of all this ignorance.

You're a role model to us all. Have you ever considered giving public speeches? We could use some of that speak down here in South Central.

We'd have punch, tortillas, cheez-whip, and a cot waiting for you. Also, on Fridays we often bake chocolate cakes, and Sensei Hoyle is practically a Master chef.

[cjurakpt]

We'd have punch, tortillas, cheez-whip, and a cot waiting for you. Also, on Fridays we often bake chocolate cakes, and Sensei Hoyle is practically a Master chef.

what about cold cuts? if you have cold cuts, I'd consider coming...

[Oso]

beer?

and what about those little petit quiches? they're yummy. ;)

[cjurakpt]

beer?

and what about those little petit quiches? they're yummy. ;)

now you're talkin'!

[TenTigers]

guacamole. no guac, no party.

[TenTigers]

ronin-wht were the useless, or obsolete techniques you refer to taught in kyokushin?

[John Takeshi]

guacamole. no guac, no party.

Sensei Hoyle has food allergies, and guacamole could kill him. Honestly, I think it's the only thing on earth that could.

[sanjuro_ronin]

ronin-wht were the useless, or obsolete techniques you refer to taught in kyokushin?

Sorry I missed this post...

Useless is context driven, in terms of competition, I wasn't taught anything useless per say, BUT, I was taught, for example, to LEAN into the straight punches to the body just drill them repeatedly ( you will see this alot in Kyokushin matches), which is fine for a "no hand strikes to the head" match, "useless" and dangerous in any other kind of match.
Some of the breathing patterns were "useless" too choppy and irregular to be of any use in fighting or anything else.
Training barefooted and in a gi in snow, while ego boosting, served no real purpose.
There were some "self defense and step-sparring" drill that were useless.
As for Obsolete, some of the training, like the aforementioned outdoor in winter, was outdated.
The view that if you weren't feeling pain you weren't training is obsolete.
Some of the "ballistic" stretching, heck ALL of the "ballistic" crap.

Stuff like that, which I am sure is very common in most older MA.

[TenTigers]

Definately the leaning thing-the new rules with head shots should end that one.
Some ballistic stretching duplicates the stretch response-but should only be done after warmed up properly, and not to an extreme, and certainly not with anyone"helping"


(I still do the barefoot in the snow trainng):o

[Royal Dragon]

Some ballistic stretching duplicates the stretch response-but should only be done after warmed up properly, and not to an extreme, and certainly not with anyone"helping"

Reply]
Ballistic stretching is bad no matter what. It actually can limit your range of motion over all because the muscles tighten out of fear of tearing, this is especially so if you are beginning at an older age.

If you want to get really flexible, do heavy cardio (Non stop Forms work for 40-50 minutes, especially long fist, is excellent for this) untill your body feels like it is on fire, like you can almost feel the flames licking your body, then gently slow your heart rate back down and start holdig your stretches for 2-3 minutes each. Do this with a really relaxed mind, almost like that state you are in right before you fall asleep.

Every 20-30 seconds or so sink just a little deeper into the stretch.

The above method is not only the safest way to stretch, but it is also the fastest way to get extreme results. You don't need to stretch constantly, or sit in splits while you watch TV. The above method gets major results with just a 20-40 minute "after training" session 2-3 times a week.

There is another method that works well by holding opposing muscles under tension untill they are strong enough to extend the range of motion. That works too, but takes a lot longer to get increased range of motion. The plus side of that is it builds the muscles so you can get into wild flexations on muscle power alone.

Ballistic stretching just can't compete unless the student is like 12....in which case they are probably really flexible to begin with, and are young enough to not risk injury as much....even then, the method I mentioned above still gives faster results safer.

[hungmunhingdai]

He who knows does not speak.
He who speaks does not know.

Lao-tzu, The Way of Lao-tzu

For unity, co-existence & kinship, let’s all make positive personal amiable interactions.

[lkfmdc]

He who is a jealous loser joins and waits two months to post, because it takes him that long to come up with a lame idea

He who is a loser posts under several names but never under a real name

HE who is a loser is jealous of those who have achieved much when they have achieved nothing

Frequently, Under Conistent Kicking, Youth Often Unify

PS: you even messed up you lame unoriginal attempt to insult

[cjurakpt]

He who knows does not speak.
He who speaks does not know.

well, you are "talking", so I guess that clearly indicates where you are in the food chain...

[hungmunhingdai]

Do remember that the mosquito that buzzes the loudest is the first to get squashed.

[lkfmdc]

Here's an idea, why don't you grow up and act like an adult?

Or, here's one, why don't you stop being a gutless moron posting trash while afraid to reveal his real name?

Are you gonna squash me? LMFAO, pathetic.

[MasterKiller]

FYI...Jon Takeshi and hungmunhingdai have different IP addresses. He must be recruiting.

[cjurakpt]

FYI...Jon Takeshi and hungmunhingdai have different IP addresses.

but I'm willing to bet that hungaNYC, noone and hungmunhingdai don't...

[hungmunhingdai]

I don't think you are a fool, but what's my opinion compared to that of thousands of others

[lkfmdc]

blah blah blah, I am too gutless to reveal my real name, much less talk to your face, so I'll try and play it off from behind my keyboard as an anonymous troll



really, grow a set

[BruceSteveRoy]

maybe i am spoiled from spending too much time on the internet but i expect a little more effort from trolls. i would say that this attempt is at best an F+.