Hong Quan anyone? [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Sal Canzonieri

07-23-2007, 04:08 AM

I've been researching Hong Quan and have found that there are several style named this.

- There is a Tang Dynasty era Hong Quan practiced by their military along with a type of Pao Chui. Sometimes this style is called Long Fist Tong Bei, but it is not related to Qi or Shi Tong Bei.
- There is a Hong Quan that was practiced all along the Yellow River that was derived from the 6 Step Boxing set (which is also mentioned in General Qi Chi's famous book).
-There is Shanxi Hong Quan
-There is Denfang village Hong Quan
- There is Shaolin Hong Quan (Xiao, Da, and Lao Hong Quan sets) that comes from Zhao Kwang Yin.
- There is Shaolin Hong Quan sets that are from 1200s that come from Li Sou (of bai Yi Feng and Jue Yuan fame).
- There is Louyang Hong Quan
- There is Shandong Cha Quan system's Hong Quan
- There is Shandong Shaolin Hong Quan
- There is Shandong Ming Tai Tzu Hong Quan done by Ming Dynasty military (composed of sets named Xiao Hong, Da Hong, and Tiger Claw).

10 different Hong Quan stlyes. They are all different from each other and also there has been some interaction between these depending on the lineage.

Next, can you read Chinese? If so, please read these articles on Song and Ming Tai TZu Hong Quan,
They are all by that researcher, tell me what you think.

http://www.wushu2008.cn/viewthread.p...a=page%3D4
http://www.tanglangquan.net/Html/Art...102180940.html
http://www.tanglangquan.net/Html/Art...102181121.html
http://www.tanglangquan.net/Html/Art...102181332.html
http://www.tanglangquan.net/Html/Art...102181643.html

http://www.wulinzhi.com/other-chinese-martial-arts/2494

Sal Canzonieri

07-23-2007, 06:24 AM

here's another great article with tons of information
about the various Hong Quan style and how they compare:

http://shaolinwushuyuan.51.net/ywlw/2.htm

bredmond812

07-23-2007, 07:00 PM

hey sal,

those links from your first post 不行。怎么办?

B Red

r.(shaolin)

07-23-2007, 08:49 PM

Okay, first, everyone has to stop bothering to mention modern public show Shaolin cause it is just a circus act, it has not bearing on anything anyone is concerned with.

I'm not sure what you are saying here. But now that you bring this up IMO the "this is for show' and 'not what we really do' is just a 'red flag' (no pun intended) that there is a lot of guess work going on at Shaolin.

I am only concerned with the sets that all the oldest monks have passed on to Shi De Gen, Shi De Yang, Shi De Gian, Shi Se Yuan, the two Liu's, and so on.

As I said most of the martial arts these monks comes from various lay sources not a single lineage. take Shi De Gen, one of his teachers, Wu Shan lin was a layman. Yes yes I know that the claim is that Shan lin's father was once a Shaolin monk. Be that as it may, this lineage actually has very few sets. Shi De Gen was a martial art enthusiast and learned much of his material from other sources - in other words its a mixed bag. As I mentioned in another post somewhere, this is true for the other 'old' monks as well. Most of these people learned after the 1920's. So in a matter of speaking its not that old. All in all it makes for dicy research. I can buy that all this material is a good sampling of what was still around the region in the late 70's but to my mind it's one source and certain not a comprehensive nor a definitive one.

The only reason to bring this up is to make clear that I take what comes out of Shaolin today with salt.

There is no use bothering with any other things that "Shaolin" circus group does. ALL THESE OLD lineages, indeed do "The Hong Quan before 1900 was known in Shaolin within two sets, the Shaolin Xiao hongquan and Shaolin Da hongquan. " I have documentation of these sets, and have learned them, this Da Hong Quan
is actually the Lao Jia Quan,

As per my other post, i would agree with Huang Baoshan's (黄寶珊 -1905-1998)
view of this Hong Quan (see my post: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47251&page=3).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1h8pyH7Q3Y
also done by a layman in the early 80's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24Nqttylj1Q&mode=related&search=

I am assuming that this article also referes to the above set.
http://shaolinwushuyuan.51.net/ywlw/2.htm

Tell me something about Lao Jia Quan and its history. . . any video clips on the net around?

many people do not know that. This other Da Hong Quan that people often see is the 6 Roads of Da Hong Quan. What Huang didn't know (realized, whatever) is that there is the Xiao Hong Quan (that everyone is familiar with) then these 6 Roads of Da Hong Quan, and then there is Lao Hong Quan, they are all from Zhao Kuang Yin's Song Hong Quan, that he passed to Shaolin at some point.

Second, Shaolin Quan means all the various long fist styles practiced throughout Henan Province that was once derived from the early sets created by the martial guards at Shaolin under Fu Ju's supervision, such as Song Tai Tzu Chang Quan.

There is a series of signature moves that come from this set and if they are not found in a style's sets, then they are NOT Shaolin Quan, but some other kind of long fist.

As I pointed out in another forum, Shaolin sets have not only signature movements but a signature structure.

I't s a silly question / statement in the first place.

Well, I;m bored of this topic, I would like to discuss Shaolin history / forms, etc with people who would like to do so,

So, I am starting a new thread on Hong Quan, and please if you want something to contribute answer that thread, thanks!

No offense to anyone meant, please

As far as Hong Quan sure I would love to chat about Zhao Kuangyin aka. Taizu vs Zhu Yanzhang aka. Taizu and 紅拳 vs 洪拳. If you're still into it.

r.

PangQuan

07-23-2007, 09:16 PM

Here is an old thread where I got a lot of info from Sal and RD in partial relation to what you're bringing up.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41291&highlight=da+hong

check it out, maybe some info you might want. several pages though....

Sal Canzonieri

07-23-2007, 11:01 PM

I'm not sure what you are saying here. But now that you bring this up IMO the "this is for show' and 'not what we really do' is just a 'red flag' (no pun intended) that there is a lot of guess work going on at Shaolin.

As I said most of the martial arts these monks comes from various lay sources not a single lineage. take Shi De Gen, one of his teachers, Wu Shan lin was a layman. Yes yes I know that the claim is that Shan lin's father was once a Shaolin monk. Be that as it may, this lineage actually has very few sets. Shi De Gen was a martial art enthusiast and learned much of his material from other sources - in other words its a mixed bag. As I mentioned in another post somewhere, this is true for the other 'old' monks as well. Most of these people learned after the 1920's. So in a matter of speaking its not that old. All in all it makes for dicy research. I can buy that all this material is a good sampling of what was still around the region in the late 70's but to my mind it's one source and certain not a comprehensive nor a definitive one.

The only reason to bring this up is to make clear that I take what comes out of Shaolin today with salt.

As per my other post, i would agree with Huang Baoshan's (黄寶珊 -1905-1998)
view of this Hong Quan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1h8pyH7Q3Y
also done by a layman in the early 80's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24Nqttylj1Q&mode=related&search=

I am assuming that this article also referes to the above set.
http://shaolinwushuyuan.51.net/ywlw/2.htm

Tell me something about Lao Jia Quan and its history. . . any video clips on the net around?

As a pointed out in another forum, Shaolin sets have not only signature movements but a signature structure.

As far as Hong Quan sure I would love to chat about Zhao Kuangyin aka. Taizu vs Zhu Yanzhang aka. Taizu and 紅拳 vs 洪拳. If you're still into it.

r.

Because we don't have time machines, I am interested in the sets themselves, how they are related, if so, he one seems to evolve from another, etc.
How there seem to be families of sets that seem to go together because they share so many movements, etc.
Many times there are nei gong sets that also appear connected to these sets as well.

Right now, I trust Shi De Gen and all the others that have looked at the various hand copied Shaolin manuals and what sets these books show. I find a coherency in them.
You can see how nei gongs like 6 Harmony Gong, Chan Yuan 8 Gong, Luohan 13 Gong, Rou Gong, Xin Yi Ba, and these sets all seem to have a relationship to each other:
Rou Quan sets, Xiao/Da/Lao Hong Quan, TZ Chang Quan, Tong Bi Quan, Pao Quan/Pao Chui, and any others like these.
The theory/body mechanics/postures/movements, etc etc etc all work together in this family of sets.

But so what if the lineages are from lay people? They more than likely should be considering how many in Shaolin's history people came and went and the place opened and closed and so on. I think that is more likely where you would find sets that have been preserved for hundreds of years (to make an anology: Montreal French still uses old phrases and words from Old French from the 1600s, Parisian French is very modern sounding and have many new words and phrases. Pomme Fritte is modern french, Patat Fritte is old french, much closer to Latin, since Italian also says Patate Fritti. Hope I made myself clear)

I am interested in discussing the possible evolution of these "Shaolin" sets and how they compare and contrast with each other and other sets from other related or not styles (tai ji, long fist, etc ) from other places in China. Case in point: I was observing an Emei set called 7 Star Fist, from the Zhao Men Sect (named so because these sets came there during the time of Zhao Kuang Yin in Song Dynasty). I noticed that this set was very much like Hawk Step Fist from Shanxi Hong Quan. One of these articles stated that a teacher from Emei went to Shanxi and taught these forms there, and the school he left behind to 4 of his students mixed these sets with their Shanxi Hong Quan sets. Hence the set being pretty much the same between emei and shanxi. See? Interesting, and historical.

----------------

About those Da Hong Quan sets you linked to.
That is the standard Da Hong Quan Yi Lu sets.
It is not the same as the Da Hong Quan set that is called Lao Jia Hong Quan.
Da Hong Quan/Lao Jia Hong Quan set is a more advanced version of Xiao Hong Quan set. The Xiao hong quan is simple and consists of 36 postures. The Da Hong Quan/Lao Jia Hong Quan set contains all these moves plus more to make 64/72 postures/movements, and the moves in common are done much more complex and deeper understanding.

Da Hong Quan (as seen in the videos, sets 1 to 6) are also part of Zhao Kuang Yin's Hong Quan series that he gave to Shaolin, but they are of a different methodology (though they also contain the Xiao hong quan movements within them). They are a sum total of Zhao KY's techniques that he had learned in his life.
As stated in those links to articles that i posted.

I have a copy also of another series of Hong Quan sets from Shaolin that come from the Li Sou/Bai Yu Feng tradion, and they are noting like these sets at all.
I should look and compare them to Shanxi hong quan though, since Bai was from Shanxi originally. But it is Li Sou that gave Shaolin these sets as a gift (so they are from outside).

------------------------------------------------
YES< of course I would like to discuss Song TZ Hong Quan vs Ming TZ Hong Quan!

What can you tell me about Ming TZ Hong Quan?
Is it in any way related or derived from Song TZ Hong Quan?
Is it completely different and if so what styles is it derived from in Shandong?

Also, the style in Shandong known as Plumflower, it is a series of sets, the ones that Yang Jing Ming teaches and others. Where do these sets come from?
THey do two Tai Tzu Quan sets (yi and er lu).
People are telling me that these two TZ sets are unrelated to Song TZ, that they are Ming TZ sets, an amalgamation of Shandong martial arts.

Any info would be great, thanks!

B-Rad

07-23-2007, 11:05 PM

Most of this discusion is waaaaay over my head, but have any of you seen the Wudang Hong Quan (vcd offered on http://www.plumpub.com). Just curious what that's derived from...

Sal Canzonieri

07-24-2007, 01:17 AM

Most of this discusion is waaaaay over my head, but have any of you seen the Wudang Hong Quan (vcd offered on http://www.plumpub.com). Just curious what that's derived from...

I have seen that set (I have the vcd), well it looks like basic Hong Quan seen in Hebei and Shandong Province.
Hong Quan simply means flowing boxing meaning that the movements are all to flowing one after the other so that it overwhelms to opponent like a flood.

So, Hong Quan is in a lot of unrelated styles, just like there are many different tong bei quan too, it's all just basic long fist.

There might be a connection to another style's hong quan, could be, I don't know right now.
Maybe someone else knows?

DRleungjan

07-26-2007, 05:05 PM

Shaolin Master

07-26-2007, 06:58 PM

Sal Canzonieri

07-27-2007, 12:04 AM

Hello Sal,

Forgive my ignorance on the subject. I find it extremely interesting however. I would like to ask you a question if you don't mind:

The Siu Lam Hung Kyun sets that you mention on this thread, have they or did they influence any of the southern arts at one point or another in their history of development?

Just curious. :)

Well, the answer is directly and indirectly.

A lot of your question I have answered here at my site:

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticle14.htm

But, also Ming Tai Tzu Hong Quan is what the Ming military did, their three main sets were Xiao (small) Hong Quan, Da (large) Hong Quan, and Tiger Claw.

Read my LONG southern KF history article on that site and you will see how this Tiger Claw entered into Fujian because of people who were stationed at a Ming Army Garrison before escaping to the south when the Qing dynasty started.

All you want to know and more is written there.

Sal Canzonieri

07-27-2007, 12:09 AM

Sal,

Could you clarify your question? Somehow in amongst all that I did not catch it.
Yes, there are many Hongquan some related some not, but pretty straightforward.

e.g. to some I could see:

Yang Jwingming's things are derived from the Nanjing Guoshu Assoc. (combined from Hebei and Shandong Masters' arts). which then was taken to Taiwan.

The Emei qixing set is from Zhaomen (of the 8 men of Emei)....it was derived from Zhili (Hebei) and Shanxi Martial arts so of course related to Shanxi and Hebei arts.

Shanxi Hongquan is itself a combination of arts.........

etc....

Regards
Wu Chanlong

Thanks, well I have these questions:

Just what the heck is Shanxi Hong Quan? Where did they get all these sets from? I have had a hard time investigating this right now.
Is is Shaolin derived? How old is it?
I know that some of their sets came from Emei, but what about the others?

What can you tell me about Ming TZ Hong Quan?
Is it in any way related or derived from Song TZ Hong Quan at all?
I think not, I think it is more like Hong Gar's type of Hong Quan.
Is it completely different and if so what styles is it derived from?

Also, the style in Shandong known as Plumflower, it is a series of sets, the ones that Yang Jing Ming teaches and others. They do two Tai Tzu Quan sets (yi and er lu). Where do these sets come from?
People are telling me that these two TZ sets are unrelated to Song TZ, that they are an amalgamation of Shandong martial arts.
thanks

DRleungjan

07-27-2007, 07:01 AM

Well, the answer is directly and indirectly.

A lot of your question I have answered here at my site:

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticle14.htm

But, also Ming Tai Tzu Hong Quan is what the Ming military did, their three main sets were Xiao (small) Hong Quan, Da (large) Hong Quan, and Tiger Claw.

Read my LONG southern KF history article on that site and you will see how this Tiger Claw entered into Fujian because of people who were stationed at a Ming Army Garrison before escaping to the south when the Qing dynasty started.

All you want to know and more is written there.

Ah...many thanks I will read in detail. :)

Shaolin Master

07-27-2007, 05:10 PM

I will have more detail on Hongquan ...when I get around to filling that space on http://www.satirio.com/ma/home.html but with my recent country move it will be a few more months before I start updating it all again......anyways.

Shanxi Hongquan:

Earliest records are from the Song Dynasty, it was called Xijia Quan (West Family Boxing) and later in the Wei period was renamed as Hongquan. It was supposedly due to the whole Zhao Taizu Hongquan 32 Postures ..... (which in the manuscript contains a lot of grammar commesurate with the dialect of Shanxi)

In the olden days it was said (Dong Qiang Xi Gun) - [East Spear and West Staff], it was also said (Dong Cha, Zhi Chuo, Xi Hong) - [ East (Shandong) practices Cha (quan), Zhi (Hebei) practices Chuo (Jiao) and the West practices Hong (Quan) ]

In the Qing dynasty the style was practiced by many both in Shanxi but also in Hebei etc....There were 4 well known masters that were responsible for the great propagation of the art ....these were Sanyuan's Yaozi 'Swallow' Gaosan (Master Gao Zhankui), Lin Tong county's Heihu 'Black Tiger' Xingsan (Master Xing Fuke), Tong Guan's county's E Hu 'Hungry Tiger' Susan .....etc.....they spread the art all over China...and the art became known as different brances such as Gao Family, Zhao Family and Xi Family (as per past)....etc as a side note Emei Zhaomen (is also known as Sanyuan pai..because it came from Shanxi Hongquan). Anyways it is also thought that Shaolin Jueyuan (Baiyufeng) had studied some Shanxi arts and passed on versions of basic Hongquan to Shaolin.

However...the style through time absorbed the features of other schools of chinese martial arts and as a result Shanxi Hongquan is a compilation of many arts allbeit with the Hongquan at its core. Some of the styles to which it encompassed include: Hongquan, Paoquan, Jiuquan, Huaquan, Tongbei, Ditang etc....this all resulted in the one hundred or so forms that it has developed through time.

...anyways that is Shanxi Hongquan for now.....

Kind Regards,
Wu Chanlong

Shaolin Master

07-27-2007, 05:25 PM

Shaolin Master

07-27-2007, 05:35 PM

Ming Taizuquan is a little bit rare nowadays.....basically Ming Taizu (Zu Yuanzhang) was often referred to as Hong Wu (i.e. 洪 (brave) not 红 (red) ). Thus the style had small and large Hong quan ....and is also referred to as Taizuhongquan .....太祖洪拳.... The style is very simple in comparison the Taizumen (Song Taizu derived art)....with only a handful of sets and direct practical methods.

Anyways.....there are way too many 'Hong' styles in Chinese martial arts.....

Regards
Wu Chanlong

Royal Dragon

07-27-2007, 06:12 PM

Sal Canzonieri

07-27-2007, 09:32 PM

Question, is the Ming Tai Tzuu the same as the Southern Fuzian Tai Tzu Quan seen from masters like Liao Wu Chang and yourself?

Is Ming Tai Tzu related to southern mantis, or is it a Long Fist style like the Zhao, Kuang Yin stuff?

Careful not to compare apple and oranges.

Ming Tai Tzu Hong Quan, was named after the Hong reign of the first Ming Emperor Zhu, is it is not what he practiced but rather, what the military practiced and was named so in his honor.

Sal Canzonieri

07-27-2007, 09:33 PM

Sal Canzonieri

07-27-2007, 09:39 PM

Again, later in my http://www.authenticshaolin.com site I will place information regarding Shandong Shaolin. This style is derive from the old Fuyu Shaolin and is the same style of Gu Ruzhang (i.e. Northern Shaolin) and others in Shandong and Jiangsu provinces (though movements and forms change with time the methodology all similar). This style was practiced by many of the Nanjing Guoshu Assoc. (as was Chaquan, Liuhequan etc)....and the resultant re-developed forms including the Taizuquan's etc had influence from that style (which Taiwan Li Maoching Yang Jwing Ming etc teach as Shaolin Longfist...etc)

The other Style known as Shandong Meihuaquan is yet different again and it influenced the Hao Family Praying Mantis ....sets such as Yuejiachui, xiaohuyan, heihuquan etc......

Kind Regards
Wu Chanlong

Fu YU Shaolin? From Yuan Dynasty?
So that would be the Kan Jia Quan shaolin style, which indeed was the base for which the Northern Shaolin style (hate that name, so easy to get confused with just northern shaoin in general) was created from.

Why does your website say Fu Yu is from the song dynasty, when everything known about Fu Yu is from the Yuan dynasty (which was when Kan Jia Quan was developed)
and from Shi De Gen, Shi De Gian, and all the other lineages say that Fu JU, not Fu YU is from the Song dynasty.

Fu Yu and Fu JU are not the same people, I know I have harped on this too many times, but they aren't.

Fu Yu is well documented as being from the Yuan Dynasty.

Fu JU is the one that called the 18 masters in the Song dynasty.

Sal Canzonieri

07-27-2007, 10:11 PM

Shaolin Master:

Did you learn the Rou Quan sets from the Liu family?

If so, I have some questions.

Shaolin Master

07-28-2007, 08:21 AM

Sal,

still many typos throughout my sites....I never edit....Fu Ju Song of the 18 .....etc..

Anways yes Kanjiaquan (if you read chinese,....my front page says...'Shandong Yang Xiushan Shaolin Kanjiaquan)....

Nope I did not learn the shaolin rouquan that you would be querying...

Regards
Wu Chanlong

Royal Dragon

07-29-2007, 08:47 PM

Shaolin Master,
I have a question on this form

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPcXE6pCgY4

I know it came from the nanjing Kuosho academy. I also know that this is only half the set. What I want to know is if it was created at the nanjing Kuosho? Or if it is a set from an older Tai Tzu tradition that was brought in from the outside and taught there?

Also, is this set the same set as your Tai Tzu Chang Chuan? or is your set by that name different?

And lastly, if this is an older set originating from Shandong, do you know of any other lines that do it, and how do they compare to the nanjing version?

MasterKiller

07-29-2007, 08:54 PM

Shaolin Master

07-29-2007, 10:03 PM

All these are also the same Nanjing Guoshu Taizu Changquan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHcfGCujcXs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vjGMpTMGF8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy0f4Ojz__o

Han Qingtang (who taught Li Mao Ching who Taught Yang Jwing Ming) was from Shandong and his sets had elements from Shandong arts as well even though he spent a lot of time at the Nanjing Zhongyang Guoshu Guan. Like most teachers (and to some degree even students) of the institute they all had various backgrounds.

The sets include Liuhequan, Lianbuquan, Gongliquan, Tantui, Maifu (1,2 and 5), Shizitang, si lu chaquan, sanlupaoquan, Taizuchangquan, Kaoquan, Xiaohuyan, Fanche, Silubenda, yanqingquan, heihuquan, tanglangshou, luohanquan, jingangquan etc..

As one can see many were borrowed from the Chaquan, Yanqing (mizong) quan, tanglang and Taizu Changquan etc...(Shandong/Hebei) styles. So yes they do have similarities but so it possibly was a set and then modified a little (like most of the Nanjing sets or teachers thereof).

The Shandong variants have a different power method, Taiwan somehow tightened the movements up (not too bad seems purposeful).......

Kind Regards
Wu Chanlong

r.(shaolin)

07-29-2007, 10:45 PM

On the subject of Ming Dynasty founder, Zhu Yuanzhang 朱元璋, and the 'Hong Quan - Red Fist 紅拳' and the meaning of 'Hong' in 'Hong Quan - Vast Fist 洪拳'.

This is a complex story but I hope this can give a bit of context to this discussion. The origin of the of the character 'red' in the northern Hong Quan (Fist) needs to be placed in context of sectarian rebels (Red Turban Army - Hong Jin Jun; Chin.: 紅巾軍) during the late Yuan (1279-1368) and Ming Dynasty (1368-1644). However the symbolism of 'Red' comes from the much earlier Han Dynasty (206 BC – 220). The name "Hong jin jun," (Red Turban army) was also used during the Jurchen conquests in 1127 during the fall of the northern Song.

The ancient Han Dynasty is commonly considered by Chinese to be one of the greatest periods their history. At one point during the Han Dynasty, Wang Mang, a "usurper" seized the throne. The Han dynasty was restored with the help of a grass roots group calling itself the Red Eyebrows, "Hong Chi Mei". This event became legendary, and the symbolic reason for the use of "red" by subsequent groups fighting against 'alien' rule.

The intentions of the 12 century rebellious military leaders of the northern Red Turban (Hong Jin - 紅巾) in the mid Yuan Dynasty (1300's) movement was "restoring of the "Song" dynasty - which was part of their ideology. They were instrumental in spreading both Hong Quan and its connection to Zhao Kuangyin 趙匡胤, (Emperor Taizu- the founder of the Song Dynasty). During this last half of the Yuan Dynasty, there was an militarization of the Chinese population that has few precedents. The center of this militarization was Red Turban sectarian rebels who championed a restoration of the Song Dynasty. During the first part of his career Zhu Yuanzhang 朱元璋 – the future founder of the Ming Dynasty – was a rising leader of the rebels who at first supported this idea for political and ideological reasons. The massive scale and significance of these movements seems to be escaping most of the forum discussion. You can say that Hong Quan is really a range of related styles connected to the rebellious military, polarized by Zhu Yuanzhang, and Red Turban commanders. This why most, if not all of the northern Hong Quan (Red Fist-紅拳) styles give Zhao Kuangyin 趙匡胤 of the Song Dynasty credit for Hong Quan 紅拳 styles. Throughout these struggles, Shaolin used the characters 洪拳 for Hong Quan (at least the tradition I practice) and it also attributes its invention to Zhao Kuangyin 趙匡胤 of the Song dynasty (more on that later). During the later part of the Yuan dynasty 1348 AD to 1353 AD, many groups organized throughout the country for the sole purpose of fostering rebellion against the alien Yuan.

There were two independent groups of Hong insurgents; the northern Hong headed by Zhao Kuangyin and the southern (or western) branch headed by Chen Youliang. Both Red Turban (Hong Jin Jun - 紅巾軍), helped militarize the population against the Yuan Dynasty. Their styles of Hong Qaan thus spread widelyand diversely in the northern China plain as well as in the south. Zhu Yuanzhang 朱元璋 eventually inherited the leadership of all the northern Red Turbans, and then after defeating Chen Youliang (the southern leader of the Hong), Zhu Yangzhang relocated himself in lower Yangzi region for strategic reasons. Once he gained control, he slowly disassociated himself from the Red Turbans and the Song dynasty. This helps to account for why northern Hong (Red) Quan still maintains the Zhao Kuangyin 趙匡胤 / Song connection but the south generally does not.

The scale of this militarization was massive and wide spread, which why it is not possible to give any one person credit for any Hong system, let alone a particular set. Hong Quan (both northern and southern) also spread greatly during the middle and late part of the Qing Dynasty (1644-1911) as part of the Taiping Rebellion. This was during the time of Hong Xiuquan (Chin.: 洪秀全; a Hakka Chinese who led the Taiping Rebellion..

Han military insurgents practiced Hong Quan in preparations for uprising against the Manchu occupation during the Qing Dynasty (1644-1911). The red color symbolized the Han revolutionaries against the Manchu, as it had centuries before in the late Song period, as well as in the late Yuan period.

Oral and recorded legend gives Zhao Kuangyin (960-976 ), the first Song Emperor (posthumous temple name -Taizu) original credit for creating Hong Quan. Zhao came from a military family in Luoyang, (not far from Shaolin Si). Here is what is passed on concerning development of Hong Quan by Huang Baoshan 黄寶珊 to one of his students in 1993. Huang Baoshan was a very knowledgeable Hong Quan practitioner from the town of Tianshui, Gansu province. Huang and his older generations, believed that the major systematization of the contemporary versions of northern Hong probably happened during the Qing Dynasty (1368-1911) in the provinces of Shandong and Shaanxi and was spread by teachers connected with the military. As per my post concerning Huang Baoshan - 黄寶珊 (1905-1998); his teachers; Sun Yanbiao 蓀彥彪(1884-1981); Sun Yanbiao's teacher - General Shao Yinhuan 紹銀環 (1862-1930); General Gao Zhankui 高占魁 (one of the three important generals to spread Hong Quan in Shaanxi during the mid and late 1800's) all attributed Hong to Zhao Kuangyin of the Song dynasty. Note that unlike Shaolin these northern Hong Quan traditions use the character 紅 - red in Hong Quan. In the tradition of Shaolin that I practice the character hong 洪'vast' is used (some people translate this as 'flood' but the term is used to mean - expansive/vast) instead of 紅, 'red'. Why?

It is not because Shaolin Hong Quan was unrelated in either technique or history to other northern Hong Quan styles. Shaolin also attributes Hong Quan to Hong to Zhao Kuangyin 趙匡胤 of the Song Dynasty and technically it is similar to other northern Hong Quan systems. The use of 'vast' instead of 'red' had more to do with politics.

During this rebellious period the Yuan government was well aware of the "Hong" army and the meaning of Hong/red 紅. The Qing government as well as the Buddhist administrators were also very much aware of the involvement of some Buddhists groups who were spreading this sectarian rebellion under the name of "Hong 紅". For this reason Shaolin Si, being an Imperial monastery, had to distance itself from the Red Turbans by avoiding the term. Keep in mind as well, the Red Turban armies had also relied on pillaging to support their forces. At one point even Shaolin monks had to fight off Red Turban looters.

In summary Zhu Yuanzhang 朱元璋, the founder of the Ming Dynasty, began his careers as a Red Turban leader, and in the end was its only leader. However his scholar advisers recommended he distance himself from this movement. In fact eventually even to mention that Zhu Yuanzhang 朱元璋 had been a Red Turban leader became taboo. However because many of his officers and soldiers and people still were believes in the Red Turban ideology. Zhu Yuanzhang 朱元璋 adopted the rein name of Hongwu 洪武. Hongwu, means "Vast Military," which references the massive army of the people that put him into power (Also see note below). It also sounded like Hong 紅 'red', giving it a positive ring to the old guard. The use of "vast' and not 'red' for Hong Quan by Shaolin in its two sets; Xiao and Da Hong Quan 大洪拳 and 小洪拳, suggests to me that that these sets were absorbed there (or possibly renamed), sometime during the mid or late Yuan Dynasty.

r.

ps

There is also a subtle reference to 'red' in the word 'ming 明 as used in 'Ming Dynasty'. Ming is a split character made of sun日 and moon 月. The sun is always represented by red in China.

mantis108

07-30-2007, 12:30 AM

On the subject of Ming founder Zhu Yuanzhang 朱元璋 and 'Hong Quan - Red Fist 紅拳' and the meaning of 'Hong' in 'Hong Quan - Vast Fist 洪拳'.

This is a complex story but I hope this can give a bit of context to this discussion. The origin of the of the character 'red' in the northern Hong Quan needs to be placed in context of sectarian rebels (Red Turban's - Hong Jin Jun; Chin.: 紅巾軍) during the late Yuan and Ming Dynasty. However the symbolism of 'Red' comes from the Han Dynasty (206 BC – 220).

As far as I am aware Red Turban's - Hong Jin Jun (紅巾軍) was white lotus (白蓮教) militia. Their leader during the late Yuan and early Ming was Han Shantong (韓山童).
Han Shantong raised people's attention or rather hope by saying that they would return to Song reign. But they actually wanted the country for themselves. Han Shantong crowned/ordained himself as Ming Wang (King of Brightness 明王), which is part of his spiritual-military movement slogan, in order to legitimize his would be future role as the ruler of all China. He enticed Zhu Yuanzhang by giving him the title the King of Wu (吳王). According to "official" record, Zhu Yuanzhang refused the title. This is the part in history that get interesting because there is a discrepency in official record and folklore. Some see that Zhu Yuanzhang took Ming as the designation of his dynasty is a prove that he's involved with the white lotus cult. But others suggested that since Zhu's power base is in the south, it could be that he used Ming to commerate that but he actually got control of China through his own doing more or less. ;)

Mantis108

Royal Dragon

07-30-2007, 01:46 AM

WOW, that is a lot of information to digest!!

2 questions still remain though. First, was this set...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHcfGCujcXs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vjGMpTMGF8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy0f4Ojz__o

...created at Nanjing? or imported TO Nanjing from Shandong? In other words, When and where was it created?

And specifically for Shaolin Master, does the aboved linked to set resemble the form called "Tai Tzu Chang Chuan" from your system?

Also, either way, do you know the history of that perticular set (your system's taizu?)

Royal Dragon

07-30-2007, 01:53 AM

One more thing, how does this fit into the picture?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f3tybhzweA&mode=related&search=

Is it the second half of this form?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPcXE6pCgY4

Or is it a unique set in and of itself from the same system?

r.(shaolin)

07-30-2007, 02:01 AM

As far as I am aware Red Turban's - Hong Jin Jun (紅巾軍) was white lotus (白蓮教) militia. Their leader during the late Yuan and early Ming was Han Shantong (韓山童).

Yes it is a complicated story.
Han Shantong of the White Lotus Society was captured and executed and Liu Futong his chief of staff headed south. Liu transformed the earlier armed White Lotus militia into Red Turbans. He was one of the many rival contenders for leadership of the Red Turbans. Eventually it was Zhu Yuanzhang that won out.

r.

Royal Dragon

07-30-2007, 02:25 AM

Sal Canzonieri

07-30-2007, 05:43 AM

Thanks very much to everyone that is participating in this history lesson, I hope you all continue to discuss, Hong Quan history needs to be sorted out.

Questions that come to mind about all the various Hong Quans, please comment if you have any info, thanks:

- I saw documentation of the original Red 紅拳 Fist Xiao and Da Hong Quan sets and they were really the same as what is now called Vast Fist 洪拳 in Shaolin. Some clear variation in body mechanics, but the sets were the same regardless.

- The earliest I could find any history mentioning something called Hong Quan said there was a style called this that was practiced by the Tang military, and made its way into Shaolin during that era, along with some type of Pao Chui. No sets , just loose techniques, as was customary for the military. It's was a type of Tong Bei, which is like saying it was a type of Long Fist essentially.

- Shaolin has their widely known Xiao Hong Quan (36 postures) set, and also a set they now call Lao Jia Hong Quan (64 postures/72 movements) that is a longer, and more complex mechanically, version of the Xiao Hong Quan. Used to be that THIS set was called Da Hong Quan. And, I have some material from Shi De Gian that refers to this set as Da Hong Quan.

These two sets are what is called the Er (2) Hong Quan style of Shaolin?

- Then there are the Shaolin 6 Roads of the Da Hong Quan sets (which their quan pu poem/song attributes to Zhao Kuang Yin himself). Roads 1 and 2 are shown in the Shaolin Encyclopedia. Road one is pretty well known by people.
Any background on these Da Hong Quan sets ?

- Also, from Shi De Gian and from Liu Zhen Hai (and family) I have documentation of another series of a 4 Roads of Hong Quan sets. These are being called the Lao Hong Quan Shaolin style.
Any insight to when/where this from?

- What happened to the Hong Quan sets that Li Sou practiced at Shaolin during the Yuan Dynasty? It is supposed to be from Shanxi originally.
Is there anywhere it can be seen?

- From what I understand, the Ming TZ Hong Quan that the Ming military practiced was pretty different than any Shaolin Song TZ Quan (both Hong or Chang Quans), that it was closer to what morphed into the Tiger sets of the Southern martial arts (the tiger part of Tiger & Crane from Hong Gar).

- Shandong had a documented group of monks from Shaolin in the exodus from Shaolin that happened in the 1700s. The linages from stem from them do Hong Quan sets as well, but their stuff looks like Shaolin Song TZ, but by now, with a Shandong martial arts flavor (some Cha Quan thrown in and so on).

- From what I have heard of the TZ Chang Quan Yi Lu and Er Lu sets that Han Qing Tang taught in Taiwan is that they are just an amalgamation of various movements from various Shandong styles, and hence the bunch of sets this lineage does all resemble each other like how Mai Fu and so on look like these two TZ Sets, etc.
There is a dim relation to Song TZ Quan from Shaolin, but nothing directly, is this correct?
So, if a TZ Quan lineages practices these two Han Qing Tang taught sets of TZ Quan, they are not ancient sets, but rather this lineages must have collected together whatever set were called TZ and practiced them, but this does not mean that they were really old sets at all, correct?

THANKS! Looking forward to all of your comments (Shaolin Master, R. Shaolin, Mantis 108, etc)

On the subject of Ming Dynasty founder, Zhu Yuanzhang 朱元璋, and the 'Hong Quan - Red Fist 紅拳' and the meaning of 'Hong' in 'Hong Quan - Vast Fist 洪拳'.

. . .

Han military insurgents practiced Hong Quan in preparations for uprising against the Manchu occupation during the Qing Dynasty (1644-1911). The red color symbolized the Han revolutionaries against the Manchu, as it had centuries before in the late Song period, as well as in the late Yuan period.

Oral and recorded legend gives Zhao Kuangyin (960-976 ), the first Song Emperor (posthumous temple name -Taizu) original credit for creating Hong Quan. Zhao came from a military family in Luoyang, (not far from Shaolin Si). Here is what is passed on concerning development of Hong Quan by Huang Baoshan 黄寶珊 to one of his students in 1993. Huang Baoshan was a very knowledgeable Hong Quan practitioner from the town of Tianshui, Gansu province. Huang and his older generations, believed that the major systematization of the contemporary versions of northern Hong probably happened during the Qing Dynasty (1368-1911) in the provinces of Shandong and Shaanxi and was spread by teachers connected with the military. As per my post concerning Huang Baoshan - 黄寶珊 (1905-1998); his teachers; Sun Yanbiao 蓀彥彪(1884-1981); Sun Yanbiao's teacher - General Shao Yinhuan 紹銀環 (1862-1930); General Gao Zhankui 高占魁 (one of the three important generals to spread Hong Quan in Shaanxi during the mid and late 1800's) all attributed Hong to Zhao Kuangyin of the Song dynasty. Note that unlike Shaolin these northern Hong Quan traditions use the character 紅 - red in Hong Quan. In the tradition of Shaolin that I practice the character hong 洪 (some people translate this as 'flood' but the term is used to mean - expansive/vast) instead of 紅, 'red'. Why?

It is not because Shaolin Hong Quan was unrelated in either technique or history to other northern Hong Quan styles. Shaolin also attributes Hong Quan to Hong to Zhao Kuangyin 趙匡胤 and technically it is similar to other northern Hong Quan systems. The use of 'vast' instead of 'red' had more to do with politics.

During this rebellious period the Yuan government was well aware of the "Hong" army and the meaning of Hong/red 紅. The Qing government as well as the Buddhist administrators were also very much aware of the involvement of some Buddhists groups who were spreading this sectarian rebellion under the name of "Hong 紅". For this reason Shaolin Si, being an Imperial monastery, had to distance itself from the Red Turbans by avoiding the term. Keep in mind as well, the Red Turban armies had also relied on pillaging to support their forces. At one point even Shaolin monks had to fight off Red Turban looters.

In summary Zhu Yuanzhang 朱元璋, the founder of the Ming Dynasty, began his careers as a Red Turban leader, and in the end was its only leader. However his scholar advisers recommended he distance himself from this movement. In fact eventually even to mention that Zhu Yuanzhang 朱元璋 had been a Red Turban leader became taboo. However because many of his officers and soldiers and people still were believes in the Red Turban ideology. Zhu Yuanzhang 朱元璋 adopted the rein name of Hongwu 洪武. Hongwu, means "Vast Military," which references the massive army of the people that put him into power. It also sounded like Hong 紅 'red', giving it a positive ring to the old guard. The use of "vast' and not 'red' for Hong Quan by Shaolin in its two sets; Xiao and Da Hong Quan 大洪拳 and 小洪拳, suggests to me that that these sets were absorbed (or possibly renamed) there sometime during the mid or late Yuan Dynasty.

r.

Sal Canzonieri

07-30-2007, 05:45 AM

Masterkiller,

Was the "Little Tiger Swollow" a set that came out of the Nanjing Kuosho academy? If so, was it devloped there, OR was it developed in Shandong and just imported into Nanjing's curriculem?

Far as I know, this set is from the Mizhong style, which is attributed to the Song Dynasty, and has been around a long time.
It is one of the styles and sets that the Nanjing used as a base to develop their sets from.

MasterKiller

07-30-2007, 04:18 PM

Far as I know, this set is from the Mizhong style, which is attributed to the Song Dynasty, and has been around a long time.
It is one of the styles and sets that the Nanjing used as a base to develop their sets from.

Some claim it comes from Wang Lang himself (but we all know it didn't. ;) )

Royal Dragon

07-30-2007, 07:32 PM

Robert Young

07-30-2007, 09:20 PM

- From what I have heard of the TZ Chang Quan Yi Lu and Er Lu sets that Han Qing Tang taught in Taiwan is that they are just an amalgamation of various movements from various Shandong styles, and hence the bunch of sets this lineage does all resemble each other like how Mai Fu and so on look like these two TZ Sets, etc.

Reply]
But where did those two Tai tzu sets come from? did they exist in shandong as part of a tai tzu system prior? Or were they created at Nanjing?

There is a dim relation to Song TZ Quan from Shaolin, but nothing directly, is this correct?

Reply]
I don't think that has been answered yet. They may be Shandong Tai Tzu imported into Nanjing.

So, if a TZ Quan lineages practices these two Han Qing Tang taught sets of TZ Quan, they are not ancient sets, but rather this lineages must have collected together whatever set were called TZ and practiced them, but this does not mean that they were really old sets at all, correct?

Reply]
If they collected various sets, then those sets had to have existed previously, or they would not have been able to collect them...so by that logic they probably are ancient sets.

We need to understand that the Nanjing system is not Tai tzu, but just a collection of various Long fist sets from other traditions. Some of those sets Nanjing created, others they imported from other systems. If these two Tai Tzu Hong Quan sets were imported from a larger Tai tzu Hongquan system stemming from Shandong, then there should be a complete system out there with those two forms in it that would include all the matching sets as well.

We need to find out if Nanjing created them, or Imported them into thier curicculem.

Let me clearify some mis-understanding hear, I'm direct line from GM Han, Qing-Tan. Our Tai-Zu Chang Chuan from GM Han's was from Sang Dong. It is a traditional Long Fist form and it has nothing to do with Nan-Jing Guo Shu Guan. And, it is one form, not 2 routines. The only forms we practiced from Nang-Jing are Lien-Bu and Gong-Li, Chu-Ji (Basic level), Zhong Ji(Intermediate level) forms. The majority of our Long Fist Forms are from Sang Dong. Also, it has nothing to do with Hong Quan either. Da, Xiao Hong Quan has their own moves and they are totally different from our Tai-Zu Chang Quan.

There maybe other Tai-Zu forms from other systems and I don't know how they relate to other forms. But, our Tai Zu Chang Quan is totally came from Long Fist in Sang Dong.

Royal Dragon

07-30-2007, 11:13 PM

Robert young,
Is this the same set as your Tai Tzu Chang Chuan?

First section of Tai Tzu Chang Chuan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPcXE6pCgY4

Robert Young

07-30-2007, 11:28 PM

Robert young,
Is this the same set as your Tai Tzu Chang Chuan?

First section of Tai Tzu Chang Chuan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPcXE6pCgY4

Yes, it is the same as our Tai Tzu Chang Chuan. And, it is the only and the whole form. There is no second section of this form. The person in the clip is my younger Long Fist uncle Lee, Mao-Qing.

Royal Dragon

07-30-2007, 11:56 PM

This is the second half of that set. Together they are roughy 108 moves

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f3tybhzweA&mode=related&search=

Robert Young

07-31-2007, 12:14 AM

This is the second half of that set. Together they are roughy 108 moves

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f3tybhzweA&mode=related&search=

The form in the clip is not from our line. It is not our Tai Zu Chang Quan form at all. I don't know where he learned it from. The person in the clip has learned some Long Fist form from my Senior Long Fist uncle Shen, Mao-Hui. But, he did not stay very long. He studied under my Long Fist uncle Shen with my younger Long Fist brothers for a while. Many of his comments about our Long Fist were his own invention. THis is a typical type of person who learned forms her and there and trying to make a living without his teachers' approval. Do NOT take too serious about his comments. The reason I know this is that I talked to his classmate (my younger Long Fist brother who studied with him) last year and verified with my Long Fist uncle Shen last month when I went back to Taiwan.

Sal Canzonieri

07-31-2007, 12:31 AM

The form in the clip is not from our line. It is not our Tai Zu Chang Quan form at all. I don't know where he learned it from. The person in the clip has learned some Long Fist form from my Senior Long Fist uncle Shen, Mao-Hui. But, he did not stay very long. He studied under my Long Fist uncle Shen with my younger Long Fist brothers for a while. Many of his comments about our Long Fist were his own invention. THis is a typical type of person who learned forms her and there and trying to make a living without his teachers' approval. Do NOT take too serious about his comments. The reason I know this is that I talked to his classmate (my younger Long Fist brother who studied with him) last year and verified with my Long Fist uncle Shen last month when I went back to Taiwan.

Instead, I'd like to ask what is this set, shown in this book:

LionBooks # LBPM- -A203
TWO ROAD LONG FIST by Gao Tao Sheng
He says it is a TZ Chang Quan Er Lu set, from Shandong as well, since he is from there.

cover of book:
http://www.plumpub.com/images/Mini/LBmini/lbkmini_A203.jpg

Sal Canzonieri

07-31-2007, 12:31 AM

This is the second half of that set. Together they are roughy 108 moves

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f3tybhzweA&mode=related&search=

I think you have been misled about this, I have never seen anything to support this information anywhere.

Sal Canzonieri

07-31-2007, 12:39 AM

Let me clarify some mis-understanding hear, I'm direct line from GM Han, Qing-Tan. Our Tai-Zu Chang Chuan from GM Han's was from Sang Dong. It is a traditional Long Fist form and it has nothing to do with Nan-Jing Guo Shu Guan. And, it is one form, not 2 routines. The only forms we practiced from Nang-Jing are Lien-Bu and Gong-Li, Chu-Ji (Basic level), Zhong Ji(Intermediate level) forms. The majority of our Long Fist Forms are from Sang Dong. Also, it has nothing to do with Hong Quan either. Da, Xiao Hong Quan has their own moves and they are totally different from our Tai-Zu Chang Quan.

There maybe other Tai-Zu forms from other systems and I don't know how they relate to other forms. But, our Tai Zu Chang Quan is totally came from Long Fist in Sang Dong.

Cool, thanks for letting me know that, I was getting confused, there are so many claims being made when it comes to long fist lineages.

Do you have some history/lineage info that about this TZ Chang Quan set from your Han Qing Tan school?

Where it came from - was it created in Shaolin, in Shandong, somewhere else? How old is it?

It's relationship to Zhao Kuang Yin, if any, etc, etc.
Any kind of background.

It's very different from other Song Tai Tzu sets I have seen that come out of Shaolin, it has a lot of Shandong province martial arts in it, like Mizhong, Mantis, Cha Quan, etc.
It shares some movements with Xiao Hu Yen, Mai Fu, etc., correct?

Robert Young

07-31-2007, 12:43 AM

Instead, I'd like to ask what is this set, shown in this book:

LionBooks # LBPM- -A203
TWO ROAD LONG FIST by Gao Tao Sheng
He says it is a TZ Chang Quan Er Lu set, from Shandong as well, since he is from there.

cover of book:
http://www.plumpub.com/images/Mini/LBmini/lbkmini_A203.jpg

Gao Dao Sheng's two road Long Fist is prabably the form he learned in Sang Dong when he was young. I don't know who he learned it from. I have not really looked inside of the book. But if he says it is a TZ Chang Quan Er Lu set, it may be another Tai Zu Chang Quan set. But it does not relate to our Tai Zu Chang Quan. There are other people practice other Tai Zu Chang Quan froms from Sang Dong also, that does not mean they are related. Chinese like to use famous people to name their forms that does not mean Tai-Zu created the forms or anything related to Tai-Zu. It is simply a good name to use and people used it. There are many southern Tai Zu forms in southern Shaolin Tai Zu system from Fu-Jian/Taiwan also. But, they are from totally different systems.

Robert Young

07-31-2007, 01:12 AM

Cool, thanks for letting me know that, I was getting confused, there are so many claims being made when it comes to long fist lineages.

Do you have some history/lineage info that about this TZ Chang Quan set from your Han Qing Tan school?

Where it came from - was it created in Shaolin, in Shandong, somewhere else? How old is it?

It's relationship to Zhao Kuang Yin, if any, etc, etc.
Any kind of background.

It's very different from other Song Tai Tzu sets I have seen that come out of Shaolin, it has a lot of Shandong province martial arts in it, like Mizhong, Mantis, Cha Quan, etc.
It shares some movements with Xiao Hu Yen, Mai Fu, etc., correct?

Tz Chang Quan is the form from Long Fist system. NO one really know the history of it, and it really doesn't matter. It is who we learned it from is important. Every generation and every master has modified a little bit here and there depending on their own interpretation. My Long Fist uncles' version of TZ is a little different from our version even some of my Long Fist younger uncle's Tz was actually taught by my teacher. This is Chinese thinking, and believe me, I'm very very traditional person and I'm dead serious about our tradition.

The term "Shaolin" is a general term. When we say I practice Shaolin simply means I practice Chinese martial arts. Then, there are northern Shaolin and southern shaolin which means norhtern Chinese martial arts and southern Chinese martial arts. Shaolin is not a system or style like some people think. In norhtern shaolin and southern shaolin, there are many many systems under each category. It is a simple way for people to identify which kind of martial arts they practice.

Yes, our TZ shares a lot of moves with MaiFu because MaiFu are also typical Long Fist forms we pratice. Xiao Hu Yen is another story, Our Xiao Hu Yen was from 7 star PM GM Wang, Song-Ting. All the Xiao Hu Yen from our Long Fist line under GM Han was from this source because it was my teacher first learned the form and spread the form to his Long Fist brothers. Our Xiao Hu Yen should be practiced a little different from the way LF does simply because it is a PM form, but most people do not know the difference. That is why some people think it has our LF influence. But the reality is that it should be praticed like PM not LF.

The history of our lineage I know can only traced back to my Long Fist great grand teachers who taught the arts to my GM Han in Sang Dong. This is the lineage we follow.

Royal Dragon

07-31-2007, 01:30 AM

The form in the clip is not from our line. It is not our Tai Zu Chang Quan form at all. I don't know where he learned it from. The person in the clip has learned some Long Fist form from my Senior Long Fist uncle Shen, Mao-Hui. But, he did not stay very long. He studied under my Long Fist uncle Shen with my younger Long Fist brothers for a while. Many of his comments about our Long Fist were his own invention. THis is a typical type of person who learned forms her and there and trying to make a living without his teachers' approval. Do NOT take too serious about his comments. The reason I know this is that I talked to his classmate (my younger Long Fist brother who studied with him) last year and verified with my Long Fist uncle Shen last month when I went back to Taiwan.

Reply]
Interesting, and good to know. I have seen the second part of the set elswhere though, not just him. If you have a copy of the Tai tzu edition of Treasures of taiwan, you see a girl dressed in white who also does the second section of that form. she refers to it as "A" Tai tzu Chuan routine though, and not as a second part of a larger set....so maybe it's two seperate forms?

r.(shaolin)

07-31-2007, 01:47 AM

TWO ROAD LONG FIST by Gao Tao Sheng
He says it is a TZ Chang Quan Er Lu set, from Shandong as well, since he is from there.

Hi Sal,
Any chance you could scan and post the open sequence of this set?
r.

Sal Canzonieri

07-31-2007, 06:07 AM

Hi Sal,
Any chance you could scan and post the open sequence of this set?
r.

At your service, see attachments, shows the first five moves after the opening salute Gao always does in his sets.

I can tell you that this Gao set is much more closer to the Shaolin TZ Chang and Hong Quan that I know, and it not at all like the TZ Chang Quan form of the Han line.
So, it must be like was said, an unrelated set to the Han set.

Sal Canzonieri

07-31-2007, 06:09 AM

The form in the clip is not from our line. It is not our Tai Zu Chang Quan form at all. I don't know where he learned it from. The person in the clip has learned some Long Fist form from my Senior Long Fist uncle Shen, Mao-Hui. But, he did not stay very long. He studied under my Long Fist uncle Shen with my younger Long Fist brothers for a while. Many of his comments about our Long Fist were his own invention. THis is a typical type of person who learned forms her and there and trying to make a living without his teachers' approval. Do NOT take too serious about his comments. The reason I know this is that I talked to his classmate (my younger Long Fist brother who studied with him) last year and verified with my Long Fist uncle Shen last month when I went back to Taiwan.

Reply]
Interesting, and good to know. I have seen the second part of the set elswhere though, not just him. If you have a copy of the Tai tzu edition of Treasures of taiwan, you see a girl dressed in white who also does the second section of that form. she refers to it as "A" Tai tzu Chuan routine though, and not as a second part of a larger set....so maybe it's two seperate forms?

It's done so differently it might as well be a different set.
Again, you might have been misled.

Royal Dragon

07-31-2007, 05:10 PM

Well, here is the thing, I have seen that set elsewhere too though. I will concede that it's an unrelated set, and also that the performer does not use the body method for Tai tzu (Or any shaolin art that I can see), but the rough over all choreography appears to match the other versions I have seen, like the girl in white from the treasures of Taiwan tape(she also does the Cha Fist set too).

I think if you removed the flash from his set it would be legit.

Royal Dragon

08-04-2007, 12:58 AM

How much of the Shanxi Hong Quan is Tai Tzu related? 100 forms is a lot. The Tai Tzu stuff has to be limited to only a handfull of sets.

Am I correct in thinking that Shanxi Hong quan today is more of a collection of Hong systems found in the region, rather than one massive style?

r.(shaolin)

08-19-2007, 08:26 PM

http://shaolinwushuyuan.51.net/ywlw/2.htm

Do people understand how sets are analyzed in relation to each other?

I - as much info as possible is found on "who taught who what, when, and where". In this way, you can see how various sets spread over an area or from one region to another.

I agree this useful.

However in comparing sets the following are very important

2. the opening salutes and opening sequence gestures of the set - traditionally this was a important manner practitioners in old China identified each other.

3. the over all structure and pattern of the set – this tends to be the most stable aspect of sets
Individual movements are more susceptible to change for two reasons:
a. if a set moved to a different region, regional stylistic interpretations often effected individual movements and postures.
b. if a set was adopted by a different school the basics are the first things that were intentionally changed (looking at basics are useful for this reason)

4. in TCM systems each set has a few unique combinations along with many combination that are can be found in other sets of the system. Looking at these is useful. Certain combination are found in related systems.

IMO individual freeze frames posture are the least useful and can be very mis-leading.

r.

Sal Canzonieri

08-22-2007, 07:50 PM

RAF

08-22-2007, 08:17 PM

CCTV 4 is doing a documentary series on the various Chinese martial arts style. Last night they did Hong Quan. The program is on at 7:30 EST but is all in Chinese.

Sal Canzonieri

08-23-2007, 12:04 AM

CCTV 4 is doing a documentary series on the various Chinese martial arts style. Last night they did Hong Quan. The program is on at 7:30 EST but is all in Chinese.

If you can watch it, please give us any factual points that might be of interest, thanks (dates, names, etc) that might be mentioned in the show.

Sal Canzonieri

08-23-2007, 12:09 AM

http://shaolinwushuyuan.51.net/ywlw/2.htm

I agree this useful.

However in comparing sets the following are very important

2. the opening salutes and opening sequence gestures of the set - traditionally this was a important manner practitioners in old China identified each other.

3. the over all structure and pattern of the set – this tends to be the most stable aspect of sets
Individual movements are more susceptible to change for two reasons:
a. if a set moved to a different region, regional stylistic interpretations often effected individual movements and postures.
b. if a set was adopted by a different school the basics are the first things that were intentionally changed (looking at basics are useful for this reason)

4. in TCM systems each set has a few unique combinations along with many combination that are can be found in other sets of the system. Looking at these is useful. Certain combination are found in related systems.

IMO individual freeze frames posture are the least useful and can be very mis-leading.

r.

I totally agree, these are very important.

By the way, the 3 main sets of Shaolin Hong Quan have three different salutes and the opening and closing of each of their sets.

1 - Xiao Hong Quan sets
2 - Da Hong Quan sets
3 - Lao Hong Quan sets

The Lao Hong Quan sets always end with the Pull the Bow posture.
They always open with a Double Ming Fist (no flat hand over the fist, this of course was a Ming dynasty salute), the Lao Hong Quan sets, which are directly from Zhao Kuang Yin himself start out with Double Fist, each of the 4 sets do it in a different direction.

Royal Dragon

08-23-2007, 02:18 AM

What about the Da hong sets? Do they have the same salute as the Lao hong sets?

Are those also from Zhao Kuang Yin? or are just the Lao hong sets from him??

Sal Canzonieri

08-23-2007, 06:01 AM

What about the Da hong sets? Do they have the same salute as the Lao hong sets?

Are those also from Zhao Kuang Yin? or are just the Lao hong sets from him??

The 6 Da Hong sets have their own salute, similar to the xiao one, but not the same.

The first line of the song/poem for the first set says literally "given to us by the emperor Tai Tzu"

Royal Dragon

08-23-2007, 06:27 AM

Sal Canzonieri

08-23-2007, 07:06 AM

Interesting.

I was going through those charts you sent me, I don't think they are fully complete as some of the transitions don't make any sense to me. It could be that I don't have enough of a background to work them out as is. I need a more detailed blueprint.

Also, do you have the Da Hong charts as well?

I throughly practiced the movements all month, everything is there.

What you don't see if that in the Chinese language explanation next to the images, it has further instructions, like "first step forward with right leg and then with left leg" and the image only shows the final leg movements in the motion arrows.

I can read you what the Chinese is saying if you are stuck.
There are just a few points where the text has more info that the illustration does not show at all.

Royal Dragon

08-23-2007, 08:50 AM

I was thinking that.

Are these all supposed to be practiced as one long set?

Either way, what is the reason for having 4 sets, when you could do them all back to back in one form?

Sal Canzonieri

08-23-2007, 11:46 PM

I was thinking that.

Are these all supposed to be practiced as one long set?

Either way, what is the reason for having 4 sets, when you could do them all back to back in one form?

Why is there 6 Da Hong Quan sets or 4 Pao Chui sets, and so on?

In this case, and as is often the cause in many CMA, each set is called a Lu in Chinese, which is close to meaning a road or route or routine.
They are really all one long set, but each Lu emphasizes different ideas and strategies.

You are supposed to do them all back to back as one form, yes.
But during each one you look for the new lessons it is teaching you.

By the way, there are 116 movements in these sets, but 108 different postures.
AND< they start and end of sets of 32 postures (like the Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan Yi Lu set), AND you can find just about all these postures in General Qi Chi Quang's infamous 32 move set.

Royal Dragon

08-24-2007, 04:36 AM

Interesting. Which onces are missing from Qi jiguangs set?

OR, is Qi Jiguangs form a section of this material maybe?

Sal Canzonieri

08-24-2007, 04:38 AM

Interesting. Which onces are missing from Qi jiguangs set?

OR, is Qi Jiguangs form a section of this material maybe?

It's always the same 3-4 moves missing, which are from the other styles that he mentioned in his list (Ba Fan Shan, etc).

r.(shaolin)

08-25-2007, 01:10 AM

......
In this case, and as is often the cause in many CMA, each set is called a Lu in Chinese, which is close to meaning a road or route or routine.
They are really all one long set, but each Lu emphasizes different ideas and strategies.

Shaolin sets as well are structured on certain number of sections/parts (Chin.:部 bu) or roads (Chin.:路 lu) Both these terms have been included in the names of some sets. However in those cases, the number of sections or roads is generally included in the full name of the set. Shaolin's Tantui Shier Lu 譚腿十二路 "Tantui 12 roads or paths," follows this convention. Like most traditional Shaolin sets Tan Tui travels on a line going back and forth, these lines are called 'roads' (Chin.:路 lu). Each grouping is designed to fall neatly into a single road. This is why you hear the word "tao lu (Chin.:套路) "a set (as in a group) of roads," in reference to sets. As you can see the word 'set' is an appropriate word for what some people call 'forms'.

On the other hand, Shenlong Shier Bu 神龍十二部 which like most traditional Shaolin sets, travels on a line going back and forth, uses the word 'bu部' rather than '路 lu'. This is because it is measured by grouped sequences of attacks and counters which are strategically more complex and do not fall neatly into a line per section.

By the way, the 3 main sets of Shaolin Hong Quan have three different salutes and the opening and closing of each of their sets.

1 - Xiao Hong Quan sets
2 - Da Hong Quan sets
3. - Lao Hong Quan

What has been passed on by our older generations is that all Shaolin sets begin with the Shiwuwei Yin hand position (for dispelling fear and symbolizes protection, etc. - the left Shiwuwei Yin for empty hand sets; the right Shiwuwei Yin for weapons) followed with both palms pressing down along the front of the body. In the case of weapons, just the one hand is pressed down.

Shaolin was unique in that it documented the origins of sets they 'absorbed'. According to the tradition I practice this included retaining the style name of sets, as with Hong Quan. Although Shaolin monks added their own opening gestures in front of these adopted sets they retained the existing beginnings as well. This created longer opening sequences. In other words there was no attempt to hid the source of sets by Shaolin monks.

We do not have any sets called "Lao Hong Quan sets" so I cann't comment.

However in our case, once the typical 'Shaolin Shiwuwei Yin' is done the 'original' openings for Xiao and Da Hong follows. Although these are different for Xiao and Da, they do have some similarity as well. According to our tradition Xiao and Da Hong Chuan Quan sets were practiced at Shaolin monastery for centuries and were used in tests of basic skill (da being the more difficult set). Versions of these extant sets spread to the laity because they were commonly done by all martial monks at one time. During the early 1950's when the PRC's Research Commission of Chinese Physical Culture began to standardize and simplify traditional northern long fist sets, simplified versions (of the way we do Xiao and Da Hong Changquan) have found their way into early modernized wushu.

no flat hand over the fist

That's right, Shaolin does not use this salute.

r.

r.(shaolin)

09-04-2007, 02:57 AM

Here's some new and interesting information on the Empty Flower board that you might all like to see, I was amazed by it:

http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=Xing;action=display;num=1187475183

Hong Quan is mentioned.

Hi Sal,
I finallly had a chance to look at this and found it interesting as well.
Here are my thoughts.

At that time, the most important styles in Shaolin Si was Shaolin Taizu Chuan, Shaolin Hong Chuan and Shaolin Pao Chuan.

Basically this confirms that around end of Ming and beginning of Qing dynasties, Hong Quan was important or at least was well known at Shaolin and was attributed to Taizu.

Bai Yufeng's, Wu Xing Di Tang Chuan (5 element tumbling boxing), created during the Yuan dynasty, had probably already been disseminated to the masses.

Our traditions also claims that Bai Yufeng and Wu Xing being created during the Yuan Dynasty, however this is the first time I've heard any one calling Wu Xing a "tumbling boxing". This is interesting because in our tradition 'tumbling' is well represented in three of the 12 sets that make up Shaolin Wu Xing as we practice it. These three important sets being: Wu Xing Hu Shou 五形虎手(Five Shapes of Tiger Hands); Wu Xing Long Shuo 五形龍手( Five Shapes of Dragon Hands) and Long Hu Zheng Sheng 龍虎爭勝(Dragon and Tiger struggling for Supremacy).

At this time, Ji Longfeng had not yet gained any true inspiration, however, the path to Shaolin runs past the QianZhai Temple in Bo’Ai county.

Priest Dong of QianZhai, was famous for his Shi San Shi Rou Shou (13 soft hands)

This suggests that Rou Quan was not from Shaolin but from Qianzai Temple 千載寺. This temple was not an orthodox Chan Buddhist temple but a synthesized temple that combined Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism.

This is the same way the merchant Wang Zong Yue passed his Soft Hands and Six Harmony Spear skills to Dong when he passed the temple when he passed by. No style can be created from nothing and just as Zhang San Feng took the lessons of those before him and created the 13 Soft Hands, Ji Longfeng too, had a teacher.

Again this suggests that Rou Quan is not from Shaolin.

r.

Sal Canzonieri

09-06-2007, 07:26 AM

This suggests that Rou Quan was not from Shaolin but from Qianzai Temple 千載寺. This temple was not an orthodox Chan Buddhist temple but a synthesized temple that combined Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism.

Again this suggests that Rou Quan is not from Shaolin.

r.

Well, maybe.

First there was the Shaolin nei Gongs that the Rou Quan come from:
LiuHe Gong (6 harmony)
Chan Yuan Gong (Zen Circular exercises)
Luohan 13 Gong

From them the Rou Quan sets were made (3).

oral history says that these sets are from Tang Dynasty or earlier to Sui.

How do we know that the Taoist Shi San Shi Rou Shou (13 soft hands) is not derived from these supposedly ancient Shaolin sets.

Maybe it is possible that Shaolin got them from Taoists? Or vice versa?

I'd have to compare the Shi San Shi Rou Shou (13 soft hands) to the Shaolin Luohan 13 Gong and so on to know for sure.

One thing is for certain, tai ji is very much like these Shaolin sets (both the nei gongs and the rou quan)
AND

the other interesting thing is that the Qianzai Temple's 千載寺 martial art is said to be a Shanxi province Tong Bei origin
AND these Shaolin Nei Gong and Rou Quan sets are CLEARLY derived from Tong Bei !!!
(if you've done both, as I have)

I really wonder which came first, the Shaolin or the Taoist starting point?

Will need some detective work. If the information is available, it can be ascertained I think by comparing dates and so on.

We know that both Chen Wang Ting, his Li family cousins and now it is known that Ji Long Feng went to Qianzai Temple during the early Ming time period.

The 6 Harmony style is known to go back to the Song dynasty.

But this 13 Postures is the real missing link.

When and where did the Taoists get it?

Also, if Qianzai Temple is founded by Shanxi people who moved south to Henan, where did they get this 13 Postures art from?
They say from Taoist source (Zhang Seng Feng - but that is considered merely a legendary story).

If Shaolin has been doing these very primitive but effective sets since Sui or Tang dynasty, then maybe they are the original source?
And people didn't know that the Taoist got it from Shaolin originally, especially since by Ming time period Shaolin had be destroyed and closed down a few times already and their arts scattered all over the place after the Song and Yuan dynasties.

r.(shaolin)

09-11-2007, 07:31 AM

I really wonder which came first, the Shaolin or the Taoist starting point?

Will need some detective work. If the information is available, it can be ascertained I think by comparing dates and so on.

When and where did the Taoists get it?

Also, if Qianzai Temple is founded by Shanxi people who moved south to Henan, where did they get this 13 Postures art from?
They say from Taoist source (Zhang Seng Feng - but that is considered merely a legendary story).

Many Buddhists clergy kept friendships with Taoists clergy; and without a doubt there were exchanges and absorption of elements between Taoist and “Buddhist religious teachings as well as martial arts.

Shaolin was characterized by the fact it absorbed many kinds of martial arts coming from all kinds of different people. Just one example is Shaolin's Seven stars sword (chin.: Qixingjiàn 七星剑) which has obvious Taoist reference in its name. This should not surprise in that Taoism has a deep history in China.

During the Tang period of the three spiritual systems: Taoism, Confucianism and Buddhism, Taoism was the paramount. During the Song and even during the Yuan it continued to be very influential. It was not until the end of the Ming dynasty that it began to decline and during the Qing dynasty it was Buddhism which stood in high regard. By then Taoism no longer had any standing at the imperial court.

The relationships between Taoism and Buddhism was complex, as they influenced each other in many ways while often competing. Chan is a prime example in that it was the product of a successful transformation of Buddhism and Chinese traditional thinking and China’s native culture.

Of the different sects of Buddhism that developed in China, Chan most closely came to reflect Taoist influence. Many scholars maintain that there was an interaction during Imperial times between Taoist monks and Chan Buddhists and there was a mutual borrowing of gods and rites. As late as the early 1900’s, both monks and other observers of the time noted that Taoist monks were in fact allowed to stay in the wandering monks hall’s even at strict model Buddhist monasteries and attend devotions, and meals.

This is supported in histories/legends passed on to my teacher concening some Shaolin sets.

Old Li family histories say that the Li brothers and Chen Wangting created shisanshi tongbei gong 十三式通臂功 - Thirteen Postures Boxing, also called taiji yangshen gong 太極養生功 at Qianzai Temple 千載寺 (note that 'the concept of yin and yang comes from Taoist and Neo-Confucian philosophy not Buddhism).

Our verbal traditions say that Tai Ji were created by a lay follower of the Shaolin Monastery who was (or became – its not clear) a Taoist. The legend continues that a few generations later some sets of this art were introduced to Shaolin by his grand student(s).

Sal Canzonieri

09-12-2007, 12:24 AM

This is supported in histories/legends passed on to my teacher concerning some Shaolin sets.

Old Li family histories say that the Li brothers and Chen Wangting created shisanshi tongbei gong 十三式通臂功 - Thirteen Postures Boxing, also called taiji yangshen gong 太極養生功 at Qianzai Temple 千載寺.

Yes, agreed, thanks.

This Tai Ji Tong Bei that Chen Wangting and his Li cousins created was made from what they learned at this Qianzi Temple, which is called "tong bei" (shanxi long fist?) and nei gongs that they incorporated from the big three religions.

Now, it is found out the Ji Long Feng's spear and other training also comes from Qianzi and later Shaolin exchanged material with him, eventually leading to his creation of 6 Harmony Xin Yi.

Qianzi is shaping up to be the missing link between many things: Shanxi Province arts, Chen TJQ, XY, and Shaolin. I think it is important to explore these connections.

Our verbal traditions say that Tai Ji were created by a lay follower of the Shaolin Monastery who was (or became – its not clear) a Taoist. The legend continues that a few generations later some sets of this art were introduced to Shaolin by his grand student(s).

Well, that's the Chang San Feng story, isn't it?
He was the lay follower that went to Wudang and developed TJQ and whose grandstudents spread it in Henan Province.

I think that it wasn't really Chang Seng Feng but the person who ran the Qianzhi Temple who is the real person that did this.
BUT< he had said he had a taoist teacher who taught him the 13 Postures set.

A comparison really needs to be made between Shaolin Rou Quan and Luohan 13 Gong and the 13 Postures Set.

Also, in the long run it is all based on Tong Bei, and very clearly these Shaolin sets, including their pre-requisite nei gong sets: 6 Harmony Gong and Chan Yuan Gong are derived from tong bei, they are almost identical.
And like tong bei, you can do them with sword in hand (like Taoist sets!)
Tong Bei has nei gongs, and is of course a Taoist art (was no Buddhism when tong bei was being developed - from sword movements).

Sal Canzonieri

09-12-2007, 05:33 AM

Here's this relevant info with some answers:

According to Qu Jian and Li Xiangyi, “the art of Wuji Cultivating Life” and “the Thirteen Postures Boxing” had been CREATED by the Qianzai Temple priest Shi Li 十力 (614-741), or Li Daozi 李道子, who well studied the Three Teachings, Qianjin yifang 千金翼方 “Revised Prescriptions Worth a Thousand Pieces of Gold,” daoyin 導引 “guiding and pulling” and tunai 吐納 “expelling the old breath and drawing the new.” Based on the stone tablet inscriptions provided in Qu’s article, Shi Li’s art accentuates: “Don’t be bully of futileness, the pugilism is for life and health. The softness overcomes the hardness, give up yourself and follow the opponent 勿為霸腐拳為民生以柔克剛舍己從人.” (Qu Jian; Li Xiangyi).

So, Li Daizi (Shi Li) was the Creater of 13 Postures set, wow interesting!!!!!

Not Chang San Feng, or some mystery Taoist.
Perhaps he was the ex-Shaolin person that turned to Taoism?

Since he was lived from 614-741, it is very well possible that he via his grand-students later brought this type of Rou Quan material to Shaolin? He did live pretty far back!

Interesting that when Ji Long Feng went to Qianzhi Temple, he learned 6 Harmonies (spear and fist) there.
Since the source nei gong to the whole Song dynasty era Shaolin sets (Tai Tzu, Hong Quan, Pao Quan, Tong Bi, etc) comes from the 6 Harmonies Gong set!
Very interesting.

What we need to do is compare 13 Postures Set to Shaolin Luohan 13 Gong and Rou Quan.

Bruce W Sims

09-21-2007, 01:13 AM

Royal Dragon

09-21-2007, 02:12 AM

I think it makes sense to try and identify as much as we can, as far back as we can.

Bruce W Sims

09-21-2007, 07:10 AM

I certainly agree with that. I wonder only that perhaps we might have more success--- more useful information of direct consequence to what we do today ---if, perhaps, we begin with what we know in THIS century and work backwards.

For instance, we know that the MU YEI TOBO TONG JI was published in 1795. This post-dates the work of both the Chen Clan as well as YANG Luchan. And, the work, itself, invokes the Boxing Canon of General Qi. Might we not be better served if we could identify those methods for what they are in that work? The Koreans did not use but about 19 of the methods and the time period cannot be so far removed from what we do now that folks are unable to identify the methods for what they are--- a scant 212 years ago. Certainly the nomenclature ought be found in either the CHEN tradition or one of the five styles that make-up the Northern Chinese Long Fist tradition, yes? Such a contribution would allow people to actually put the material of this resource in the Public Domain rather than keep it secretive within the Korean culture.

I think it is always fun to muse over the origins of things. For people who are entertained by the notion, we can always ascribe the "Eight Pieces of Brocade" the the 12 Century patriot Yue Fei, for instance, though we will never be able to know if he originated them or not. And for the TCM folks among us, we can always imagine that the "Yellow Emperor's Canon of Medicine" was actually written in the 3rd Millenium BC rather than the 3rd Century AD as is more likely. But from the standpoint of application and practice, where may the better good be served? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Bruce W Sims

09-22-2007, 09:04 PM

Hmmmm... What happened to the discussion?

Was it something I said?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

r.(shaolin)

09-22-2007, 09:22 PM

Bruce (and Sal),

I'm buried with other pressing matters. I do have some thoughts
on your interesting posts. Later this weekend I will try and get them down and post something.

cheers,
r.

Royal Dragon

09-22-2007, 11:05 PM

As far as Taiji goes, I have heard that everything, in every Taji style is found in Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, and Tai Tzu Hong Chuan.

Tai Tzu Hong Chuan is supposed to be the style of the Elite Imperial Guards of the early Sung dynasty (Still trying to fully prove that though, but so far it looks to be accurate) and is basically a mix of the prominat military styles of the time.

That being said, it would have been spread through out the area, and common to anyone who's family had a career military person in thier line somewhere.

The Tai Tzu Chang Chuan is softer, and more internal looking to me, and you can clearly see that the 32 posture set from Shaolin is imbedded in Chen Taiji's old form (As shown In Sal's article for the magazine).

Since Sal has access to those with expertise in the old Shaolin historical records, we are able to know what Tai Tzu Chang Quan was comprised of in the Sung dynasty. We can then compare those techniques to Taiji, and see what is there today.

That is the reason why it is so important to be familiar with the really ancient stuff.

As for Cha Fist, various Hong Fists, Tong Bei, Cuo Jiao (foot poking), We know those were the military styles that were common prior to, and during the early Sung dynasty…the techniques of which, both Tai Tzu Chang Chuan and Tai Tzu Hong Chuan, are made of.

Prior to the Sung dynasty, those styles all were formless, and just collections of loose techniques and their usage.

I am told Taoist Tong bei is very old, thousands of years in fact. Between this style, and Shui Jiao, it looks to me that they are from where all Chinese styles sprang from, including most of the core, central Shaolin styles.

Knowing all this, it allows us to move forward on the timeline, and see the evolution of newer styes.

Bruce W Sims

09-24-2007, 06:14 PM

Well said, but how do we know that what we are talking about is the same as what is practiced in actuality? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Royal Dragon

09-24-2007, 06:26 PM

Well, in the case of many Sung dynasty Shaolin (Like Tai Tzu) the historical records are still around. We may not know exactly, but the techniques are well known, and probably the choreography of the forms. That is as close as you are gonna ever get I think.

It is enough to gte a genral picture of things though.

Bruce W Sims

09-25-2007, 12:02 AM

“Well, in the case of many Sung dynasty Shaolin (Like Tai Tzu) the historical records are still around. We may not know exactly, but the techniques are well known, and probably the choreography of the forms. That is as close as you are gonna ever get I think.

It is enough to get a general picture of things though.”

I want to agree with you, Royal, but there is some piece of this that simply does not set well with me. For instance, I know that in the KMA it is not at all unlikely to find people waxing profound over the nature of the HWA RANG warriors when, in point of fact, we know next to nothing about them, their purpose, training, tactics, training and so forth. Its fun to speak in gross terms about them, and Gawd knows that more than a few post-WW II traditions have invoked them. However the actual amount of information simply doesn’t justify all of the nose-scratching.

For comparison, at least the MYTBTJ is closely related to the Boxing Canon of General Qi. Seems that if someone wanted to investigate, they would side-step much of the pre-Yuan material and start taking a stronger look at the execution of identified material from, say, 1700-going-forward.

Please understand that I have every regard for “pure science” and “pure research”. Perhaps I share these thoughts only because I come from a bit more pragmatic view, yes? As an example it might be interesting to identify the first time a particular method, say, “Pats High (on) Horse”, is ever mentioned in the literature, and that is Well and good. For my part, however, I would rather take as many executions of such a method, and compare and contrast them to identify the essence of the method. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Sal Canzonieri

09-25-2007, 09:08 PM

Although it may seem like the most obvious answer, most of the folks who I know who attempt research in this area seem to be drawn to materials dated back hundreds of years. The lack of documentation seems to bother them not at all.

For myself, I tend not to pay much attention to anything prior to the YUAN Dynasty, as even going back some 700 years is probably a bit of a stretch, yes?

As far as General Qi's material I can only say that I concur with the latest scholarship that supports that the Boxing Canon is primarily TAIZU Long Fist and that General Qi's commentaries provide little or no insight into the execution of such material. I have been aware for some time that it has become acceptable for people to take the salient position of the methods and attempt to chain these together in some fashion as to produce a "form"(See: Qi Family Publication). To my mind it would make much more sense to use the individual methods as they are.

Currently I am engaged in research into the KWON BUP material which is said to derive from the Boxing Canon of General Qi. Unfortunately I must report that while this is a popular position for people who have read the recent translation (See: Kim, Turtle Press), once one steps away from this single representation the entire fabric begins to come undone.

Has anyone else found a similar rapid degrading of information over the last two hundred years? Personally I think we might do better to focus on this rather than attempt to identify something from the 10th Century, yes? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

So far, the only documentation that exists that has been found is the hand written copies of the Shaolin manuals that were later burned in 1925 fire.

Shi De Gian (co-writer of Shaolin sets encyclopedia) and others spent the last 40 years traveling throughout China and South East Asia looking for all these hand written manuals that various lineage holders have been passing on through the generations since Shaolin essentially shut down after 1925.

-----------------------------

The stuff seen in General Qi's book in no way other than names for postures is what is found in Chen Tai Ji sets.

They clearly took Shaolin sets as frames for their internal ideas that came from Chen Wang Ting's development of 13 Postures Tong Bei.

The postures in General Qi's book are not a real set, just a collection of techniques.
Most of them are indeed seen in various Tai Tzu related Shaolin sets.
But the other postures are from other styles he mentioned (Ba Shan Fan, etc).

I used to not agree with this, until I compare all the material together from the different styles and it became very obvious.

Bruce W Sims

09-26-2007, 09:06 PM

Dear Sir:

As I begin this I had some misgivings as to whether or not I would have been able to respond through PM given the limits of this system. I thank you for your kind response and hope that you appreciate how much your input is valued by me in furthering this project. As I suspected, however, the PM will take only 1000 characters or less. Perhaps a hidden blessing might be that a public exchange might give others a chance to pitch-in as well, yes? Anyways, here goes......

I will not restate the entire history of the MYTBTJ as I am sure you are much familiar with the work and the origins of its materials, their import to Korea from China, the many revisions, and the final publication in 1795. I am also sure that you are aware of the recent commercial translation by Dr. KIM Sang H. (See: ISBN 1-880336-53-7), which, though much regarded, is not what I would characterize as a “scholarly” work, the translation being rather “free”, if you will.

My current work focuses on the KWON BUP (Lit: “Fist Method”) portion of that work (See: Book Four; Chapter One). The MYTBTJ identifies this material as coming from CHUK Kye-kwang (C. QI Ji-guang) and his manual Ji Xiao Shin Shu (See Chapter 14). However. You will find great differences resulting from how the Koreans elected to frame and use the material. Please consider the following.

1.) Have a copy of Gyves (See: University of Arizona) fine translation of General Qi’s “Boxing Canon” and it contains all 32 stanzas, suggesting that all of the methods are accounted for. I also have several copies of the MYTBTJ in English, Han-Gul and, most importantly in Hanja, which is to say in the earlier Chinese before the post-Revolutionary Government (1911) initiated the revisions that were later adopted.
2.) A survey of the KWON BUP chapter readily produces a list of the following 28 methods.

#1 Tam Ma Se (Scouting Horse Posture)
#2 Yoran Ju Se (Breaking Bird Elbow)
#3 Hyunkak Huhee Se (False Prey Posture)
#4 Sunran Ju Se (Docile Bird Wing)
#5 Chilsung Kwan Se (Seven Star Fist Posture)
#6 Kosa Pyung Se (Four Levels Posture)
#7 Do Sahp Se (Throwing Posture)
#8 Il Sahp Bo Se (Drizzling Walking Posture)
#9 Yo Dan Pyun Se (Single Whip Posture)
#10 Bok Ho Se (Prone Tiger Posture)
#11 Hyunkak Huhee Se (False Prey Posture) Repeat
#12 Ha Sahp Se (Pinning Posture)
#13 Dang Du Po Se (High Block Posture)
#14 Ki Go Se (Flag Beating Posture)
#15 Joong Sahp Yung Se (Four Level Posture)
#16 Do Sahp Se (Throwing Posture) Repeat
#17 Do Ki Ryong Se (Falling and Riding the Dragon)
#18 Yo Dan Pyun Se (Single Whip Posture) Repeat
#19 Mae Bok Se (Ambush Posture)
#20 Hyunkak Huhee Se (False Prey Posture) Repeat
#21 Ha Sahp Se (Pinning Posture) Repeat
#22 Dang Du Po Se (High Block Posture) Repeat
#23 Ki Go Se (Flag Beating Posture) Repeat
#24 Kosa Pyung Se (Four Levels Posture) Repeat
#25 Do Sahp Se (Throwing Posture) Repeat
#26 Il Sahp Bo Se (Drizzling Walking Posture) Repeat
#27 Yo Dan Pyun Se (Single Whip Posture) Repeat
#28 Ohwa Jun Shin Se (Five Flowers winding around the Body)

You will, I think find the names of these methods familiar both from the JI XIAO SHIN SHU as well as the material of the CHEN clan now known as CHEN TAI CHI CHUAN. You may also notice that many of the labels are also found in the TAIZU CHANG CHUAN traditions (See: Huo). However, please note that when repeated methods are deleted, there are in fact, only 17 methods or merely half of the original Boxing catalogue.

Combination #1 Tam Ma Se (Scouting Horse Posture)
Combination #2 Yoran Ju Se (Breaking Bird Elbow)
Combination #3 Hyunkak Huhee Se (False Prey Posture)
Combination #4 Sunran Ju Se (Docile Bird Wing)
Combination #5 Chilsung Kwan Se (Seven Star Fist Posture)
Combination #6 Kosa Pyung Se (Four Levels Posture)
Combination #7 Do Sahp Se (Throwing Posture)
Combination #8 Il Sahp Bo Se (Drizzling Walking Posture)
Combination #9 Yo Dan Pyun Se (Single Whip Posture)
Combination #10 Bok Ho Se (Prone Tiger Posture
Combination #11 Ha Sahp Se (Pinning Posture)
Combination #12 Dang Du Po Se (High Block Posture)
Combination #13 Ki Go Se (Flag Beating Posture)
Combination #14 Joong Sahp Yung Se (Four Level Posture)
Combination #15 Do Ki Ryong Se (Falling and Riding the Dragon)
Combination #16 Mae Bok Se (Ambush Posture)
Combination #17 Ohwa Jun Shin Se (Five Flowers winding around the Body)

Further the Koreans, most probably owing to the political climate of the times, appear to have retained only the most “benign” of the methods. They also introduced a curious two-person drill, perhaps in response to the late General Qi’s recommendation that single training also required paired training. Is this fashion two people were pitted against one-another but only so far as their methods would cancel each other, and not so that one might “triumph” over the other (See: KWON BUP; Author’s Note)

Modern attempts to investigate this material to any depth have failed miserably, probably from a host of mis-informations and insecurities on the part of modern-day Korean scholars. For instance, not a few people have elected to use materials from the YANG, WU and SUN TCC traditions in an effort to reconstruct these methods. In another instance, Koreans who are well-informed on the matters of the MYTBTJ choose not to communicate with non-Koreans as it would most probably reveal the poverty of their own knowledge as well as disclose a much-prized national tradition.

What I am seeking to accomplish is to characterize the execution of the KWON BUP Methods in a manner most closely approximating how they might have been known at the time of their publication, round about 1750 to 1800. There is no huge secret about this material and the possibility of providing this to the KMA community is an exciting prospect.

Let me stop for the moment and ask your thoughts thus far.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Royal Dragon

09-27-2007, 02:51 AM

As far as I know, the names of the Qi Jiguang postures do match with Chen, HOWEVER apon comparing the actual moves, there is no match at all. The names were used, but not the moves those names go to.

Now, if you compare Chen Taiji to Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, regardless of what the names of the moves are, the moves themselves match up exactly. In fact Sal has an article where he shows how each Tai Tzu posture was compared to the old Chen form, and it was found that the entire Shaolin 32 Tai Tzu Chang Chuan set was not only in the Old Chen form, but in the exact same sequence, move for move, IN ORDER. The Chen only added thier own stuff in between those moves.

Also, in comparing the first section of the Loa Hong Form, and Da Hong form from the Shaolin Tai Tzu system, it is clear to see that Zhao Boa Taiji was built on Tai Tzu Chang Chuan as well...the names of the moves mean nothing, and neither does the sharing of the names between various Taji lines, and General Qi Jiguang. Only the actual sharing of the moves themselves matters. That said, the sharing of the actual moves is between Taiji, and Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Chuan.

Qi jiguan was just a military man, and thus exposed to Tai Tzu, as it was a prominent military art during is time. Back then Tai Tzu was as common as TKD schools are today. Just becasue he was exposed to Tai Tzu, and Chen style is also built on Tai Tzu, does not mean Chen got thier techniques from Qi Jiguan's book.

Bruce W Sims

09-27-2007, 05:40 PM

Thanks, Royal, this is exactly what I have found for myself. It is quite a source of comfort to communicate with people who are “on the same page”. In the past I have worked to convey these same concerns to others in the KMA community and have been stuck by how obtuse folks seem to be when I raise these very concerns. Please allow me to take these one at a time.

“….As far as I know, the names of the Qi Jiguang postures do match with Chen, HOWEVER upon comparing the actual moves, there is no match at all. The names were used, but not the moves those names go to…..”

For the purposes of my research I only use the late General Qi’s “Boxing Canon” as a catalogue, of sorts, to assure that I am talking about a discrete number of methods. As we both know, the writing itself offers only the General’s principles regarding the methods, since he undoubtedly left it to his cadre to actual teach the techniques based on each method to his units. In this sense, the general’s writings only serve to get us “into the church” but do not help us to any one particular “pew”, as it were.

“……Now, if you compare Chen Taiji to Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, regardless of what the names of the moves are, the moves themselves match up exactly. In fact Sal has an article where he shows how each Tai Tzu posture was compared to the old Chen form, and it was found that the entire Shaolin 32 Tai Tzu Chang Chuan set was not only in the Old Chen form, but in the exact same sequence, move for move, IN ORDER. The Chen only added thier own stuff in between those moves……”

This is precisely where I am at in my research. You are the third person I have met to invoke the “Shaolin 32” set of the Taizu LF tradition, though I have also had it presented to me as the “Taizu 32 Postures” of the Shaolin tradition. Either way I am given to believe that the methods are similar, and sometimes nearly identical while the labels may vary. This is where I think that the use of Qing Mandarin Characters as compared to traditional Korean Hanja would be a huge help. Still, you are very right that even if the labels might be sorted-out there is still the matter that the methods identified by those terms may vary considerably. This is why I have been so keen to focus on the TAIZU and CHEN material of the second half of the 18th century.
Certainly there might be some resources from that time which would reflect the execution of a method of a given name, yes?

“……Qi jiguan was just a military man, and thus exposed to Tai Tzu, as it was a prominent military art during is time. Back then Tai Tzu was as common as TKD schools are today. Just becasue he was exposed to Tai Tzu, and Chen style is also built on Tai Tzu, does not mean Chen got thier techniques from Qi Jiguan's book….”

My “qualified conclusion” (aka: “humble opinion”; “best guess” :)) based on my research thus far is that both General Qi as well as the CHEN clan as well as many others took the TAIZU material and bent it to their purposes. Nothing new about that in the MA world and I can say the same for the Korean MYTBTJ. However, it remains that an important part of Korean tradition is respected if we can begin to put a method with the labels as they might have been used early-on rather than how they have come to used today. Thoughts?

BTW: Is it even possible to find “TAIZU 32” as it might have been executed, say around 1750 to 1800? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Royal Dragon

09-28-2007, 05:36 AM

This is precisely where I am at in my research. You are the third person I have met to invoke the “Shaolin 32” set of the Taizu LF tradition, though I have also had it presented to me as the “Taizu 32 Postures” of the Shaolin tradition. Either way I am given to believe that the methods are similar, and sometimes nearly identical while the labels may vary. This is where I think that the use of Qing Mandarin Characters as compared to traditional Korean Hanja would be a huge help. Still, you are very right that even if the labels might be sorted-out there is still the matter that the methods identified by those terms may vary considerably. This is why I have been so keen to focus on the TAIZU and CHEN material of the second half of the 18th century.
Certainly there might be some resources from that time which would reflect the execution of a method of a given name, yes?

Reply]
You would have to ask Sal Canzonieri. He would be the guy who would know the resources.

My “qualified conclusion” (aka: “humble opinion”; “best guess” ) based on my research thus far is that both General Qi as well as the CHEN clan as well as many others took the TAIZU material and bent it to their purposes. Nothing new about that in the MA world and I can say the same for the Korean MYTBTJ. However, it remains that an important part of Korean tradition is respected if we can begin to put a method with the labels as they might have been used early-on rather than how they have come to used today. Thoughts?

Reply]
I am not sure exactly what you are saying, but Tai Tzu was spread on a "MASSIVE" scale when soldiers returned home from thier tours of duty (Assuming they lived through it). Most Tai Tzu of this nature is Tai Tzu Hong Quan, not Tai Tzu Chang Chuan...although both styles have the same core roots, and share a large number of techniques.

Tai Tzu Hong Quan is just a collection of various techniques form the varied styles practiced by the Song's military. It's not a set system, as each Garrison had thier own flavor, and mix of a number of core styles.

Tai Tzu Chang Chuan is what the Emperor Zhao, Kuang Yin distilled from the arts that also comprised the Hong Quan. It's basically all his favorite