Shaolin Defined

[tattooedmonk]

What is Shaolin?? Is it a geographical location, a specific set of forms( kuens) , a philosophy, a life style, etc. ?

I already know what it is, I would just like to hear your thoughts on the subject.

[Leto]

What "shaolin" represents to me is a lifestyle of daily practice devoted to spiritual development, incorporating body, mind and spirit. Whether it's factual history or not, the legend of Bodhidharma is the key to it all for me. Shaolin, in legend at least, is the birthplace of the Ch'an sect, the place where the first patriarch taught this unique spiritual discipline. The discipline is not dependent on specific exercises or movements, the primary teaching is that it's "all in your mind". If your mind is in the right place, it doesn't matter whether you're sitting, cooking, walking, or fighting. The martial arts serve as a practice that allows the integration of body and mind, of spirit and action, and self and other. It's one method of many possible methods for living and realizing this.
Before anyone says "it's all a myth" and I am believing in folk stories with no basis in fact...I don't believe it matters. Whether this really happened in the past or not, it can happen now. The story was passed on for a reason.

It doesn't matter who taught you your martial arts, what style it is, what sort of stances you use. I know an Okinawan karate teacher whos dojo carries out the spirit of Shaolin better than many people who study Chinese martial arts. He doesn't call his dojo "shaolin". Who cares what you call it? The important thing is the discipline and practice that leads you to be present in action in every moment.

[Pk_StyLeZ]

shaolin is small forest =)

[DPL]

Posted this on another thread, but hey, it fits here too.

Shaolin is a schizophrenic elephant with anger management issues, constantly arguing with different parts of itself as to which part is the 'real, authentic' elephant. And also whether it should be called elephant, oliphant, or modern mammoth.

[tattooedmonk]

What "shaolin" represents to me is a lifestyle of daily practice devoted to spiritual development, incorporating body, mind and spirit. Whether it's factual history or not, the legend of Bodhidharma is the key to it all for me. Shaolin, in legend at least, is the birthplace of the Ch'an sect, the place where the first patriarch taught this unique spiritual discipline. The discipline is not dependent on specific exercises or movements, the primary teaching is that it's "all in your mind". If your mind is in the right place, it doesn't matter whether you're sitting, cooking, walking, or fighting. The martial arts serve as a practice that allows the integration of body and mind, of spirit and action, and self and other. It's one method of many possible methods for living and realizing this.
Before anyone says "it's all a myth" and I am believing in folk stories with no basis in fact...I don't believe it matters. Whether this really happened in the past or not, it can happen now. The story was passed on for a reason.

It doesn't matter who taught you your martial arts, what style it is, what sort of stances you use. I know an Okinawan karate teacher whos dojo carries out the spirit of Shaolin better than many people who study Chinese martial arts. He doesn't call his dojo "shaolin". Who cares what you call it? The important thing is the discipline and practice that leads you to be present in action in every moment.
Excellent! I like your way of thinking.:D

[Maxwang]

What "shaolin" represents to me is a lifestyle of daily practice devoted to spiritual development, incorporating body, mind and spirit. Whether it's factual history or not, the legend of Bodhidharma is the key to it all for me. Shaolin, in legend at least, is the birthplace of the Ch'an sect, the place where the first patriarch taught this unique spiritual discipline. The discipline is not dependent on specific exercises or movements, the primary teaching is that it's "all in your mind". If your mind is in the right place, it doesn't matter whether you're sitting, cooking, walking, or fighting. The martial arts serve as a practice that allows the integration of body and mind, of spirit and action, and self and other. It's one method of many possible methods for living and realizing this.
Before anyone says "it's all a myth" and I am believing in folk stories with no basis in fact...I don't believe it matters. Whether this really happened in the past or not, it can happen now. The story was passed on for a reason.

It doesn't matter who taught you your martial arts, what style it is, what sort of stances you use. I know an Okinawan karate teacher whos dojo carries out the spirit of Shaolin better than many people who study Chinese martial arts. He doesn't call his dojo "shaolin". Who cares what you call it? The important thing is the discipline and practice that leads you to be present in action in every moment.


I like this too but don't forget that Shaolin is a warrior class in China much like the Samurai in Japan! The Shaolin Warriors had many great feats and won many battles for China. They are the Warrior class in China. I think often gets overlooked sometimes?

[Leto]

I don't think it is a "warrior class" in China. Over time, the name Shaolin has come to be associated with excellent martial arts, it is true, and there were legendary warrior monks who have tales told about them. But Shaolin was/is a Buddhist temple and its inhabitants have always mainly been monks devoted to a spiritual life. It is not at all like the samurai of Japan, whos lives were devoted to warfare.
Some of the inhabitants of shaolin may have not have been devoted to Buddhism, but were mainly fighting men who protected the temple, the "warrior monks". Some people think most of the famous martial arts of shaolin really came from these types of people, and not the monks at all. To me, it doesn't matter.
The important thing is the concept of the complete unity of physical and spiritual life, achieved through discplining the mind, body, and spirit equally. This is what the "legend" of the shaolin martial arts represents to me.

[David Jamieson]

Shaolin means "young forest"

Shaolin temple is a buddhist temple in Northern China In Henan province.

Shaolin monks are buddhist monks in that same monastery and temple.

Shaolin's contribution to buddhism is Ch'an, more commonly known as Zen.

Shaolin Martial arts have a long and storied history.

Shaolin Kungfu is said to be a very good thing to work towards in your life.

Shaolin philosophy falls in line with Buddhist philosophy.

[5Animals1Path]

A great excuse to make movies about bald guys who train guys who are only bald on the front half of their head, and have ridiculously long hair in the back.

[Mas Judt]

Shaolin is the most complete unber-martial art with billions of forms, taught by the one true grandmaster Sin The' - who moves and performs completely different from any classical CMA because only HE has the TRUE COMBAT FORM and everything else from China is wushu. Even the wushu forms he copied from a book a 'taught-out' better because of his incomparable position as the TRUE ONE AND ONLY GRANDMASTER OF SHAOLIN.

Beware all you who do not bow before his might!


;)

[Lamassu]

Shaolin is the most complete unber-martial art with billions of forms, taught by the one true grandmaster Sin The' - who moves and performs completely different from any classical CMA because only HE has the TRUE COMBAT FORM and everything else from China is wushu. Even the wushu forms he copied from a book a 'taught-out' better because of his incomparable position as the TRUE ONE AND ONLY GRANDMASTER OF SHAOLIN.


I'm glad to see you finally realize the truth. :)

[PangQuan]

What "shaolin" represents to me is a lifestyle of daily practice devoted to spiritual development, incorporating body, mind and spirit. Whether it's factual history or not, the legend of Bodhidharma is the key to it all for me. Shaolin, in legend at least, is the birthplace of the Ch'an sect, the place where the first patriarch taught this unique spiritual discipline. The discipline is not dependent on specific exercises or movements, the primary teaching is that it's "all in your mind". If your mind is in the right place, it doesn't matter whether you're sitting, cooking, walking, or fighting. The martial arts serve as a practice that allows the integration of body and mind, of spirit and action, and self and other. It's one method of many possible methods for living and realizing this.
Before anyone says "it's all a myth" and I am believing in folk stories with no basis in fact...I don't believe it matters. Whether this really happened in the past or not, it can happen now. The story was passed on for a reason.

It doesn't matter who taught you your martial arts, what style it is, what sort of stances you use. I know an Okinawan karate teacher whos dojo carries out the spirit of Shaolin better than many people who study Chinese martial arts. He doesn't call his dojo "shaolin". Who cares what you call it? The important thing is the discipline and practice that leads you to be present in action in every moment.

Great post here.

[mkriii]

Mas Judt.....you are joking right? Thats a pretty bold statement to say. I know several kung fu masters that would disagree with you. by the way the term wu shu means combat art. I know what you meant but in the future you should make it more clear what you mean.

[Bruce W Sims]

I don't know what this is worth, but speaking as one who is very much an "outsider" to CMA I can only report that the term "Shaolin" seems to be more of a marketing term than anything else.

When I am doing research and the term pops up it seems to reflect a need to romanticize the subject under discussion or add some level of "authenticity". On those occasions when someone will ask for clarification, the response is usually vague and validated by some data which is equally vague.

Here in the US, when a subject such as Boxing or Wrestling comes up, there are sometimes references to a "Philadelphia style" or a "New York style", but specific qualities as to what actually constitutes such categories is---you guessed it--- pretty vague. My guess is that like "Chicago Hot-Dog", "Paris Fashions" and "Italian Pizza" the term has more to do with the image being sold than some special quality of the item itself. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Shaolin Wookie]

LOL, that's actually pretty accurate, Bruce.

[Shaolin Wookie]

What is Shaolin?? Is it a geographical location, a specific set of forms( kuens) , a philosophy, a life style, etc. ?

I already know what it is, I would just like to hear your thoughts on the subject.

Shaolin, is to me, a young forest. There's a temple in this young forest, and some monks lived there a long time ago.

Chan is a discipline used to develop mental awareness and spiritual acuity.

Shaolin Chan is the discipline practiced to develop mental awareness at the temple in a young forest, which some monks practiced a long time ago.

Shaolin kung fu is the practice of martial arts used to keep the monks in shape and entertain themselves while they attempted to develop mental awareness and spiritual acuity, which they did in a temple in a young forest, a long time ago.

Modern Shaolin kung fu is a cluster**** of who knows what to develop bragging rights and spiritual pomposity in your neighborhood school, which some monks may or may not have practiced a long time ago, but probably didn't, and the myths are ridiculous, even though they prescribe the values that could have prevented teh consummation of this unholy cluster****; or perhaps it's an MA only very recently propagated, which no longer involves meditation (in many cases), often in countries where young forests have all been burned down to make room for the vital interests of MacDonalds, now being placed a mile away, so you won't have to drive two miles to get to the next one.

Shaolin kung fu forums are an avenue by which you can either whine about this, offer internet challenges, gripe over lineages, spout BS, ruin reputations, or occasionally, and less frequently, discuss things intelligently, offer tips and advice, and post some videos to share experiences.

Shaolin-Do kung fu is the most comprehensive martial art in the galaxy.:D

[bawang]

in the old manuals from the beijing online library, there were a lot of old stories of wondering shaolin monks teaching people in need so they can have revenge. usually the story goes a wondering monk sees a person being sad because his friend/relative/himself got (insert) by (some people), so he teach him (random gong). then after this person masters this gong, he kill their whole family. after they got revenge he goes to the shaolin temple.

[Shaolin Wookie]

usually the story goes a wondering monk sees a person being sad because his friend/relative/himself got (disemboweled) by (some opium dealers from Taiwan over a shipment of loco weed), so he teach him (bong gong). then after this person masters this gong, he kill their whole family. after they got revenge he goes to the shaolin temple.

I love Mad Libs. Does make you wonder what they were cooking in those branding cauldrons at the entrance to the temple. Free basing?

[bawang]

I love Mad Libs. Does make you wonder what they were cooking in those branding cauldrons at the entrance to the temple. Free basing?
i think the spirit of shaolin is less combining chan buddhism with chinese kung fu, than Chinese nationalism.
:)
i wish a shaolin monk would teach me skill of iron butt
i heard Shi De Yang got arrested and put in the Bay area big house for trying to solicit a ying yang man and drinking special water in public, Big Ray Ray tried to anoosrape him, and he clenched his buttcheeks and ripped it right off :eek:

[Bruce W Sims]

Stanley Henning made quite a wave when he related that the greater amount of focus on "Shaolin" related more to literary works of the 18th and 19th Century than actual practices or concrete information.

Has anyone ever sought to construct a history of Chinese Boxing traditions without relying on including Shaolin history and see if the result is at least somewhat as cohesive as when such material is used? Thoughts?

BTW: What I have noticed for myself is that there are very discrete stories told between which there seem to be very large gaps. The assumption seems to be that during those gaps things went on pretty much as when the discrete incident occurred. However, I have not found any evidence to support this. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[David Jamieson]

shaolin spans a 1500+ year long history.

to stick it in a box for the sake of categorizing it is a fruitless effort that will reap little reward and certainly not contribute to further understanding of what it is or isn't.

[Bruce W Sims]

I think you are very right, David.

I also think that using a term for which there is no actual understanding is equally fruitless. There are some terms such as "master" and "grandmaster" which are thrown about with considerable abandon, but are poorly defined and understood. Fact is that prior to the 1970-s the term 'grandmaster" did not even exist within the context of MA and the term "master" was not used here in the US until the 1960-s (See: Black Belt Magazine). In the Korean traditions, rank, for instance, did not exist at all until its was foisted on Korean martial traditions following the Japanese Occupation (1907-1946).

Taken a step ****her, there are terms such as "soke" in Japanese traditions and "sifu" in Chinese traditions which are regularly invoked and used by Western practitioners with very little insight into what the purpose and obligations of these titles entail (See: JAMA). All of which is to say that if the use of a term such a "Shaolin" is only to invoke an emotional response rather than makes a true distinction among the various traditions, then I think perhaps, we need to examine who is using the term and why. For myself, I am of an understanding that there are some folks who have come to use "Shaolin" as a category to cover all Northern Chinese traditions, much like others use the term "Long Fist". This begs the question, what distinction is being made when someone identifies a practice as "Shaolin Long Fist", yes? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Shaolin Wookie]

shaolin spans a 1500+ year long history.

to stick it in a box for the sake of categorizing it is a fruitless effort that will reap little reward and certainly not contribute to further understanding of what it is or isn't.

I bet you're the kind of guy that doesn't fold his clothes or sort them according to type (socks, boxers, T-shirts) before stuffing them into a dresser, and when you pack your luggage, you just jam a bunch of **** into a gym bag and strain with the zipper for ten minutes before you can get the sucker closed.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I think you are very right, David.

I also think that using a term for which there is no actual understanding is equally fruitless. There are some terms such as "master" and "grandmaster" which are thrown about with considerable abandon, but are poorly defined and understood. Fact is that prior to the 1970-s the term 'grandmaster" did not even exist within the context of MA and the term "master" was not used here in the US until the 1960-s (See: Black Belt Magazine). In the Korean traditions, rank, for instance, did not exist at all until its was foisted on Korean martial traditions following the Japanese Occupation (1907-1946).

Taken a step ****her, there are terms such as "soke" in Japanese traditions and "sifu" in Chinese traditions which are regularly invoked and used by Western practitioners with very little insight into what the purpose and obligations of these titles entail (See: JAMA). All of which is to say that if the use of a term such a "Shaolin" is only to invoke an emotional response rather than makes a true distinction among the various traditions, then I think perhaps, we need to examine who is using the term and why. For myself, I am of an understanding that there are some folks who have come to use "Shaolin" as a category to cover all Northern Chinese traditions, much like others use the term "Long Fist". This begs the question, what distinction is being made when someone identifies a practice as "Shaolin Long Fist", yes? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce


And yet, there is a mammoth thread right below this one going on 500 pages, delineating in no uncertain terms what exactly is not Shaolin, in more or less uncertain terms, despite the fact that nobody knows for certain what in the hell is Shaolin.:rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

Ch'an, medicinal practice, kungfu.

these practices combined can be said to be a shaolin way, particularly when dranw form the well of shaolin.

zen is zen, but has a few different paths.

medicinal practice is the same, many different paths and kungfu, well taht's all over the place. But, if it is "just" martial art and has no medicinal practice and has no zen, then it cannot be said to be "shaolin" it cqn only be said to be drawn from shaolin. That's the major point of difference.

just sayin.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Ch'an, medicinal practice, kungfu.

these practices combined can be said to be a shaolin way, particularly when dranw form the well of shaolin.

zen is zen, but has a few different paths.

medicinal practice is the same, many different paths and kungfu, well taht's all over the place. But, if it is "just" martial art and has no medicinal practice and has no zen, then it cannot be said to be "shaolin" it cqn only be said to be drawn from shaolin. That's the major point of difference.

just sayin.

So, by this logic, b/c Shaolin-Do does have medicinal/herbal practices, iron palm, tons of chi-kung and several other health related practices on top of kung-fu, and does include "secular" Ch'an (just taught as Ch'an meditation practices, no sutras), and has kung fu on top of that............

Well, you get the picture.

BTW, I'm not trying to hijack this thread for SD. I'm just seeing if you think your definition of Shaolin stands true by positing the hot topic and resident controversial style in a dialectical manner.

[David Jamieson]

There is a style of Okinawan Karatedo that is called "shorin ryu"

this means "shaolin school".

I myself have learned sil lum kungfu which is also shaolin.

what is at shaolin temple nowadays is not necessarily what is out and about in the rest of the world.
I don't think it matters anymore. However, i have never had anyone try to tell me that Karate or Kempo was bonafide shaolin, only based on it.

[mkriii]

Believe me there is a difference between shorin ryu and Shaolin Kung Fu. Shorin Ryu is more hard and linear from what I have seen and I have seen A LOT of Shorin Ryu stylists. Shaoling in more circular and soft with very little hardness.

[David Jamieson]

Believe me there is a difference between shorin ryu and Shaolin Kung Fu. Shorin Ryu is more hard and linear from what I have seen and I have seen A LOT of Shorin Ryu stylists. Shaoling in more circular and soft with very little hardness.

yes i understand that. This is why i was using it to make the point. :) But I must disagree with your statement regarding hardness. there is plenty of hard ass hardness in sil lum kungfu. :)

[bawang]

Believe me there is a difference between shorin ryu and Shaolin Kung Fu. Shorin Ryu is more hard and linear from what I have seen and I have seen A LOT of Shorin Ryu stylists. Shaoling in more circular and soft with very little hardness.

shaolin is very direct and hard, it should because it's external right?
(traditionally shaolin is known for linear and straight forward, i heard from real practitioners!! most of their forms go straight forward)
but i think the japanese "shorin" schools actually are not shaolin but shaolin "inspired". most of they just do normal kempo.

[B-Rad]

Of course Shaolin-Do goes far beyond just claiming to be traced back to Shaolin to the head teacher claiming to be THE grandmaster of ALL of Shaolin while teaching forms from many other styles that have verifiable origins that have nothing to do with Shaolin, and having lots of b.s. stories about his own training background... not to mention him or other high ranking black belts actively spreading new lies ;) It's an important distinction imo.

[David Jamieson]

I didn't know we were talking about shaolin do, but yes, I agree, to claim grandmastery is spurious at best claim wise and there are many other suspect aspects to the organization in general, but that's going on in another thread. :)

[Shaolin Wookie]

Of course Shaolin-Do goes far beyond just claiming to be traced back to Shaolin to the head teacher claiming to be THE grandmaster of ALL of Shaolin while teaching forms from many other styles that have verifiable origins that have nothing to do with Shaolin, and having lots of b.s. stories about his own training background... not to mention him or other high ranking black belts actively spreading new lies ;) It's an important distinction imo.

LOL.....that's as big and inaccurate a generalization as those propagated (I admit, it's true), by Shaolin-Do marketers.

But let's get back on track. I was only seeing if you guys who think Shaolin is wide-spanning and hard to define or even typify would live up to your word when faced with the specter of accepting SD....LOL...:D

The horror.....the horror.....

[B-Rad]

Whoops, didn't read the whole thread. Popped in partway down the second page and saw Shaolin-Do discussion from the Wookie. Thought I'd get my two cents in before the thread got locked or combined with the massive SD thread. Will try to keep in on topic :p