What makes Jeet Kune Do,Jeet Kune Do?....

[RAYNYSC]

Anyone care to shed some insite?.... :D

RAYNYSC

[rogue]

Excellent question!!!

[RAYNYSC]

I feel that it's the individuality of each persons own process of growth not to mention the differences in attributes like size,speed,power,precision,endurance & even age that will determine what makes Jeet Kune Do,Jeet Kune Do... :D

RAYNYSC

[rogue]

So a person could study only BJJ or karate and be considered a JKDoka?

http://www.fightingarts.com/magazine/graphics/goju-ryu08.jpg

[RAYNYSC]

What's JKDoka?.... :confused:

RAYNYSC

[RAYNYSC]

To answer your question I believe it to be no as BJJ & or KARATE is not Jeet Kune Do!....
Now are there elements of these systems as well as others like: JUDO,JUJITSU,WRESTLING,WING CHUN,WESTERN BOXING,FENCING, SAVATE,THAI BOXING that can be found in Jeet Kune Do? The answer to that is yes there is....

But that dosen't make them Jeet Kune Do!...

As they are what they are a means to express yourself at that given point in time no more no less!....
What matters here is you learn how you deal with the matter at hand no one else not Bruce Lee not Dan Inosanto just you!....

The art of Jeet Kune Do is about an individuals own process of growth no more no less....

In short The art of Jeet Kune Do is simply to simplify.It is being oneself;it is reality in its "isness." Thus,isness is the meaning -having freedom in its primary sense,not limited by attachments,confinements,partialization,complexiti es....
BRUCE LEE

That sounds a lot like having to be able to adapt to the matter at hand with out thought...

How you reach that state is another story LOL!!!!

RAYNYSC

[Martial Joe]

I am guessing Jeet Kune Do makes Jeet Kune Do...

[dunbarj01]

I thought Bruce Lee made JKD what it is. He set the foundation but I don't know who else contributed to JKD not be a JKD person myself.

[handsome]

First someone should post Bruce Lee's picture instead of MR ROGUE's karate post...
at least that's one of million ways to show the world JKD is still alive instead of MR ROGUE...
What do all your JKD people think???

[rogue]

Let's face facts, Bruce Lee wasn't a Kano, Yip Man, Fairbairn, Hellio Gracie or Morihei Ueshiba.


So Ray, according to your post and logic anything could be JKD.

If karate is my means to express myself then it passes that test. If it teaches me to adapt and deal with the matter at hand, which karate can, then it passes that test also.

Don't take this wrong, but even JKD people don't know what JKD is or isn't. Is it simply a concept or an art, it can't be both. If it's a concept it can be applied to any art, if it can't then it's not a concept.

"The art of Jeet Kune Do is about an individuals own process of growth no more no less...."
Well what if the persons process involves by-passing the art of JKD altogether and instead studies Preying Mantis or Lama Pei, all the while sticking with the concepts of JKD.
One of the reasons I left JKD was all the psycho-babble many of the students spouted about JKD vs traditional arts such as JUDO, JUJITSU, WRESTLING, WING CHUN, WESTERN BOXING, FENCING, SAVATE, THAI BOXING. Which I'll point out JKD is dependent on to give it techniques to use, and not the other way around. What new thing outside of the concepts has JKD come up with?

Sadly JKD is on it's way to be a marketing catch phrase and not an art that contributes anything new to the martial arts.

http://www.fightingarts.com/magazine/graphics/goju-ryu08.jpg

[This message was edited by rogue on 05-01-01 at 08:19 PM.]

[Watchman]

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

That make you happy, Handsome?

[Daedalus]

JKD is not bound by tradition.
...is not stagnant.
...is not a style.(but rather is the absence of style)
...is not a merely a collection of other martial arts.(JKD assumes formlessness that it may assume all forms).
...is not impractical or inefficient.
...is not set in stone.

[Watchman]

Sounds like a Nike commercial. :D

[rogue]

...is not a merely a collection of other martial arts.(JKD assumes formlessness that it may assume all forms).

No, it's a collection of other martial arts techniques. And sorry to say if you think JKD is formless you better work on your Zen. You quote and follow the teachings of Bruce Lee? You got form. You include certain techniques but exclude others? You have form.

...is not a style.(but rather is the absence of style).
It's a style.


C'mon stop the Jibba Jabba guys and come up with a real defintion.

JKDoka favorite movie is Cleopatra, because she was the queen of de nial. :D

Watchman, where did Yip Man get that really cool JKD training device?
<table>
<td>
http://www.cda2.net/isshinryu/images/sumobuko.jpg </td>
<td>
Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour
</td>
<td>
http://www.fightingarts.com/magazine/graphics/goju-ryu08.jpg
</td>
</table>

[Watchman]

>>>>>Watchman, where did Yip Man get that really cool JKD training device?<<<<<

From the Brucinator Himself, Rogue. Where else?! Legend has it Bruce also taught him pak sau and the straight blast too. Wing Chun just wouldn't be same today without all that.

[Daedalus]

The comments that Bruce made about JKD being without form and being absent of style are simply ways of saying "I do what works best for me, regardless of where it comes from."

The mindset is what makes it JKD, not the techniques. Techniques, for the most part are generic.

[rogue]

"The mindset is what makes it JKD, not the techniques. Techniques, for the most part are generic."

Good answer, so JKD could be based on Judo or Tai Chi Chuan. So could I drop the Wing Chun techniques? Hell, could I scrap every technique from it and start fresh with techniques from totally different arts?

And here's some more pictures of Japanese and Okinawan karate masters.

<table>
<tr>
<td>
http://www.cda2.net/isshinryu/images/sumobuko.jpg </td>
<td>
Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour
</td>
<td>
http://www.fightingarts.com/magazine/graphics/goju-ryu08.jpg
</td>
</tr>
</table>

[dumog93]

I am currently in the jkd pipeline of Inosanto's,but i don't see why not.I think what Bruce and many others who i respect are really trying to say is that it doesn't matter what styles you get things from as long as they don't own you.I would guess wing chun was a popular pick due to the chi sau and the concepts that go along with it that aren't as integral to other systems.I think the whole idea is to come up with a series of movements that flow into each other in progressive form using the least amount of effort to produce maximum results(end of fight).Following this line of thought all the concepts come into place such as no mindedness,centerline,mirroring,immoveable elbow,etc.I don't see a reason why you couldn't do the same thing with any set of styles that were complimentary to each other,but i do see the limitations of certain styles.Of course most of the karate styles i'm thinking of can be done more "flowing" and without a forward reverse punch if you had the presence of mind to soften things up.Personally i think wing chun is a good core system for anything,but i admit i'm not an expert and i think it will take many,many years before i can probably feel confident with most of my techniques.A few problems i see in many martial arts is the choppiness.I don't need to punch and ki-ai(however you spell it) and admire my work.I would rather flow into something else and get things over with.Another problem are styles that are rooted and think they can take a good grappler out with a snapping front kick or simply sidestep them with a mortal combat move.Unrealistic at best.As long as concepts of the arts you study don't interfere with your personal way of fighting or common sense i would think anything can be jkd.JKD to me just means a coherent system of fighting that covers all the elements and can flow like water or crash like a wave when it has to.A balance of hard and soft techinques,striking,trapping,grappling,and an emphasis on sensitivity and body control(both you and your opponents).This is a lot to cover,so it's only reasonable to expect to spend many years when trying to cover all the bases.I guess i'm trying to see it like i see grappling.I was a wrestler,i now take jiu-jitsu.I don't call myself a wrestler or a bjj guy,just a grappler.I wish people would start to view the stand up portion of the arts the same way.

-Devildog

[rogue]

"it doesn't matter what styles you get things from as long as they don't own you"

I like that alot.

"Of course most of the karate styles i'm thinking of can be done more "flowing" and without a forward reverse punch if you had the presence of mind to soften things up."

They usually do soften up a bunch around black belt, check out the Basai, Tekki and other advanced kata for how techniques should be done.

And are you sure that reverse punch is a punch and not a grab? :)

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

[Grappling-Insanity]

Well what makes it is what you want to make it. No you dont have to study JKD to actually be a JKD practitinor(sp?) in essence. JKD IS NOT A STYLE. It's concepts on how to abandon forms and guidlines. You make it yourselve, yes you can study various different arts and in essence be a JKDer. JKD is what YOU want to make it, however if you are really interested and want to study JKD ideas I suggest you take some classes in JKD. I'm not saying this is the only way to study JKD but I believe these classes help you to flow between styles. How about some pictures of some real good fighters IMOhttp--a1140000.futurism.ws-susumu-pride-010325-susumu16.JPG http://a1140000.futurism.ws/susumu/pride/000827/susumu29.JPG

[4 Ranges]

...well, if you're talking about JKD as combat discipline, then it is, simply REALISTIC FIGHTING. People like to say "oh, JKD is a compendium of wing chun, savate, boxing, yakety-yak", but it is actually about quickly taking out your opponent(s) in TOTAL COMBAT, regardless of style or technique. If it's not effective in a realistic situation, then it's not JKD. That's why a guy that combines tai chi/judo/bjj/wushu/gymnastics can't call what he's doing JKD...because those arts don't prepare you for, or necessarily deal with, realism. Unless your training revolves around gearing up, and going all out against a single or multiple opponents, you can't even begin to call what you're doing JKD, even if you train at a so-called JKD school.

Now, if you're talking about JKD as combat philosophy, JKD is basically who you are. Don't subscribe to the x-files notion of "the truth is out there." The truth is you. To believe otherwise is to believe that the truth is something that you have to "get", and if you can "get" the truth, you can "own" the truth. Eventually, you have such a ownership over it, you can start "selling" the truth.

That's why JKD can't be anything else other than who you are, because to believe otherwise is to believe that someone else can give it to you. And that's the fastest way to lose your money, and get yourself killed on the street. Teachers can POINT (we all know the quote, so I won't say it), to the truth, because they've seen it before...but that's all their roles require them to do.

Ultimately, JKD is a very simple idea, for those who get it. Like the man said: "JKD: either you get it or you don't." :D

Never confuse sparring with fighting. One is an exchange of skill; the other an exchange of blood.

[This message was edited by 4 Ranges on 05-11-01 at 06:48 AM.]

[Grappling-Insanity]

Couldnt have said it better myself....

[rogue]

I'm going to by-pass the fortune cookie philosophy parts since I've heard those before, hell I've even said them myself up until 2 years ago.

Ultimately, JKD is a very simple idea, for those who get it. Like the man said: "JKD: either you get it or you don't.
If it's simple then everyone should get it, if it's complex then there's an excuse for it being hard to define.

"If it's not effective in a realistic situation, then it's not JKD. That's why a guy that combines tai chi/judo/bjj/wushu/gymnastics can't call what he's doing JKD...because those arts don't prepare you for, or necessarily deal with, realism."

Define "realism". Does realism mean that you actually can get hurt in training or something else. Are you also saying that the throws and chokes of judo and the ground game of bjj won't work on the street and aren't realistic? I've had three JKD instructors, all of whom would take exception to that. Tai Chi if taught properly is also very nasty.

I'll agree with wushu & gymnastics though.

"Unless your training revolves around gearing up, and going all out against a single or multiple opponents..."

I'll counter with "gearing up" not being realistic. I've yet to fight on the street wearing hand wraps, gloves and head gear. Also "going all out" to me means that the people you're fighting really intend to hurt you, other than that it's all just sparring.

Is it safe to say that currently JKD means something different to everyone? And if it does then how can it have a label like JKD.

Concept:
1. A general idea derived or inferred from specific instances or occurrences.
2. Something formed in the mind; a thought or notion. See Synonyms at idea.
3. Usage Problem. A scheme; a plan:

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

[DragonzRage]

Too many people are so caught up with criticizing a man who's been dead for years and debating semantics about an abstract concept to ever simply see what JKD simply is. Instead of wasting time with bull philosophical debate, they should just look at the end product and see for themselves. Guro Dan's accomplishment speaks for itself. Sensei Nakamura is one of the most reknowned and respected Shoot wrestlers in the world and his Jun Fan skills are precise and powerful. Paul Vunak has reality street fighting down to a science and he is one of the first Americans to promote Bjj and grappling long before there was a UFC. His insight and abilities are unquestionable. Erik Paulsen- one of the top NHB competitors in his day and undefeated light-heavyweight international Shooto champion. Now he is one of the most respected grappling authorities in the world with his diverse background in the grappling arts. And although Ted Wong doesn't get much press, from what I've seen his students have excellent basics and can employ Jun Fan techniques extremely well. I've had the privilege of training under Sensei Yori, Erik Paulsen and Guro Dan and seeing firsthand what they're all about. I've experienced many different people of many different backgrounds in the MA world and all I can say is that these guys are some of the best and most well rounded martial artists I've ever seen and I can only hope to accomplish what they have. Yet all three of them, as well as the other JKD men I mentioned each have unique teachings and different influences and experiences. What links them together is that they are all **** good and each of them can set an example for you to realize your own potential. THIS is what JKD is all about, IMO. I could care less about all the BS debate about how good Bruce really was, OJKD vs JKDC, and why Guro Dan didn't go to Bruce's birthday party. As for all this nonsense about JKD being a "marketing catch phrase" and stupid philosophical debate, I'll tell you this: ANYONE can prescribe to the philosophies of JKD or teach with a JKD mindset regardless of who taught them or what styles they know. That is the end of the philosophical side right there.

BUT you cannot go around calling yourself a "JKD teacher", etc. JKD may just be a name, but it is a name that people associate with something particular. The name belongs to the men who built it! Guys like Guro Dan, Paul Vunak, Richard Bustillo, Ted Wong, Larry Hartsell and their top students. If you want to train with the JKD mindset, that's perfectly fine. But the minute you start calling yourself a "JKD instructor" or a "JKD practitioner" is the minute you start implying that you have been trained under and endorsed by the people listed above and that you can offer something of their teachings, which you really cannot. That would be doing a disservice to those men as well as the people you are lying to. So please, once you get your black belt in karate and finish reading all your Bruce Lee quotes, don't bother calling yourself a JKD instructor. Because you can be a guest in someone's house. You can get to know them and what they're about. But that doesn't make you part of their family. Once you cut the semantic crap, it's as simple as that.

[DragonzRage]

Hell, Christianity and Buddhism means something different to lots of the practitioners of these religions. Does that mean that the label of Christianity or Buddhism don't mean anything? No it just shows that people have different ways of thought and of expressing themselves. What unites them are the common roots and the base ideals that they all agree on, no matter what denomination they are from. Perhaps the entire JKD community is not completely united in their ideas, but if you get the all highest seniors and authorities of JKD in one room, I can for **** sure guarantee you that there will be some basic ideas that they will indeed agree on.

By the way, if you don't consider gearing up and sparring "realistic" then I guess you don't consider getting knocked out realistic. I'd really like to hear how you go about doign things "realistically". If you're gonna tell me that you do traditional karate type play sparring I have three words for you: HA...HA...HA. And as for "going all out", man i think you know what he means. Cut the crap and stop playing word games.

[rogue]

Is bareknuckle sparring (50% to 80% force depending upon rank and experience) realistic enough? Are broken ribs(lots of those), broken hands (mostly from hitting something hard like a guys head, sans headgear, without gloves), dislocated elbows, guys throwing up after getting kicked in the gut, a concussion, a dislocated jaw and yeah, getting knocked out, not to mention the bumps and bruises from landing upon a hardwood floor if you get swept or thrown, good enough for you? Done every class and not once a week or month on a nice mat, real enough?

Guess what, I know it isn't a real situation. Because I know that while we may get "lost in the dance" and do damage to each other, it's still not a street fight. That the fight will end and help given to those that need it.

And one thing I'm laughing at is a JKD guy telling me not to play word games, because the BS the average JKD student runs around spouting is what help turn me off to it in the first place.

I do believe that Inosanto, Vu ( I learned under one of his direct students for a while, very good instructor), Hartsell( grappling before it was cool) and the others you mentioned as knowing what it is. My pokes are at the ones who are clueless and illogical in their definition of JKD. Those who mimick Guro Dan without understanding the mastery the man acheives.

And I'll be honest, I don't know what JKD really is either. I've seen it used as a pure "marketing phrase", a set of concepts, a set of skills called concepts which means that they aren't really concepts, and a martial art unto itself (I'll use the definition of porn, "I don't know what it is, but I know it when I see it"). If any one can describe it, it would be Inosanto. He knew Lee, trained with Lee and was friends with Lee. But even then there would be those who would contradict him.

The reason JKD is so hard to define is that if you define it as an art then it can't be a concept, but the concept of JKD, to me at least, is what really makes it unique.

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

[RAYNYSC]

I'll say this Rogue, for the most part 4Ranges & DragonzRag kinda sumed up the way I feel about JKD....
So with that being said I would like to thank everyone who has taking there time to reply to this post.....

RAYNYSC

[rogue]

Could you please give me the succinct version of it to me in a nutshell? ;)

Also does that make the other definitions wrong?
I thought Daedalus & dumog93 came closest to what JKD was to me, especially to quote dumog93, "it doesn't matter what styles you get things from as long as they don't own you". I like that one alot.

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

[This message was edited by rogue on 05-11-01 at 08:45 PM.]

[RAYNYSC]

I'm no authority on this subject but I'll say this about JKD.... Very few people get it & even fewer understand it.... :D
Now what makes the other definitions wrong?.... I couldn't really answer that one....

As each of us in our own way may see & understand things differently.... :D

It shouldn't be about who's right or who's wrong instead it should be more about what works for you the individual that counts....

Remember it's the individual that gives life to the style,system or concept of fighting not the other way around....

RAYNYSC

[DaiKaiju]

So raynysc, Explain to me why Rogue years of studing Goju-Ryu and mastering its system to his benefit would not be considered his own version of JKD?
Isn't the main goal of JKD is finding what works for the specific person?
If Rogue found that Goju-Ryu, Tae Kwan Do, or even Shotokan Karate, worked for him and he was comfortable with it, wouldn't that classify as his own personal JKD?
:rolleyes:

That which does not kill you will only make you stronger, and if does kill you, then you sucked to begin with!!

[RAYNYSC]

Hey DaiKaiju,
As far as saying If Rogue or anyone for that matter found that Goju-Ryu,Tae Kwan Do or even Shotokan Karate,worked for him & he was comfortable with it,wouldn't that classify as his own personal JKD?.... I would have to say No it wouldn't!.... But then again if what you're doing works for you. You can call it what ever you want!....
But that still doesn't make it JKD does it?

RAYNYSC

[This message was edited by RAYNYSC on 05-23-01 at 08:35 PM.]

[rogue]

Why not?

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

[S.Teebas]

The thing about JKD is.... it's going to die/disapear/vanish..etc...
AS DragonRagez said "If you get the seniors in a room they will agree"

But that seems to be about it. JKD was good in it's day, but it was baised on a system by a man who had exposure to a lot of MA's...all these new JKD instructors arn't bruce lee! I think if you learnt under the man, you would be a pretty good fighter. but lets face it, he's gone and so is his intrepetations, all the great systems evolved over ATLEAST the founders life time. If Bruce live till he was 70 the JKD system would be very different to what you see today. Everyone agrees that he was constantly evolving... bruce may have reached his PHYSICAL peak when he was alive but i highly doubt he reached his mental peak... the level of understanding somone alot older would reach (or an older version of himeself atleast).

It seem that no-one can even agree on what JKD is, and when they do define it, they say the personal expression only applys to themselfes not traditional systems. Whats the go fellas?

[4 Ranges]

What do you mean by goju-ryu "working for him?" Nureyeve felt that ballet "worked for him." Does that make ballet is his own JKD??? RIDICULOUS!!

JKD isn't about doing what "works for you": it's about what works in REALISTIC COMBAT! A realistic situation occurs in all ranges (weapons range, kicking range, punching, trapping, groundfighting) and mutates from single-opponent to multiple-opponent scenarios. Last I checked, goju-ryu doesn't do extensive groundfighting, extensive trapping, or extensive weapons. In fact, I have yet to see a legitimate goju-ryu practitioner even compete in a mixed-martial arts event! On the other hand, JKD practitioners Erik Paulson, Ron Balicki, and Yori Nakamura have (in fact, Nakamura and Paulson are champions in Japan).

What do goju fighters do to prepare for realistic situations, anyway? Do they train against multiple opponents? Do they train against weapons? Do they do all of this in real time? Or do they concentrate on forms and dry-land swimming?

In fact, we are so focused on realistic combat that, at our particular JKD school, to achieve our very first rank, we have to fight two senior students, simultaneously, in an all-out situation. You get knocked down, they jump you and kick the crap out of you. You get knocked out...you're just knocked out. We've had several students (grown men!!) lose their and cry right there, and leave in the middle of the test!! And that's just the FIRST test. As you move up, it's 3 on 1, 4 on 1, 5 on 1, 2 on 1 with weapons...no-holds barred. No ref to break you up and start you over. No point-sparring. No bowing. Harsh? Yes. Realistic? Absolutely. JKD? Without a doubt.

Goju-ryu is Goju-ryu. If it "works for him" (i.e. he's happy with it), then that's great.

But don't confuse it with JKD.

Never confuse sparring with fighting. One is an exchange of skill; the other an exchange of blood.

[rogue]

And what school is this that is so bad assed?

Also I don't really do Goju, I do Isshinryu and TKD.

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

[This message was edited by rogue on 05-24-01 at 02:41 PM.]

[DaiKaiju]

First off, Raynysc, your response was the most singular unenlightening response I have ever heard. If I studied Goju-Ryu and saying I took elements from that style only and used it in a realistic situation and won, and won consistantly then why wouldn't this be considered my JKD?
You people have commited the very sin that Bruce Lee himself warned you not to commit, You are all caught up with a name.
It doesn't matter what the technique is, just as long as it works for the individual and not the masses.
I agree with Rogue on this one, and Raynysc, you yourself say you are not a authority on JKD, so wouldn't it be presumpuous of you to say what is JKD and what is not?
:rolleyes:

That which does not kill you will only make you stronger, and if does kill you, then you sucked to begin with!!

[RAYNYSC]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If I studied Goju-Ryu & saying I took elements from that style only and used it in a realistic situation and won, and won consistantly then why wouldn't this be considered my JKD? [/quote]

Well for starters if you were studying Goju-Ryu & useing only elements from that style how can you call JKD?.... It's Goju-Ryu not JKD.
But then again like I said before! If what you're doing works for you. You can call it whatever you want! But that still doesn't make it JKD does it?


The way I see it....
The art of Jeet Kune Do is about an individuals own process of growth no more no less!....

What exactly is that process?.... Is for the individual to find out for himself....

Who cares where it comes from if you can work it then work it! But don't call it JKD!.... Call it what it is Boxing,Fencing,Wing chun,Judo,Jujitsu,Bjj,Kali,Pentjak Silat,Goju-Ryu, Tae Kwan Do or Shotokan Karate....
Like I said before very few people get & fewer understand it.... The bottom line is it shouldn't be about who is right or wrong instead it should be more about what works for you the individual that counts! ;)

RAYNYSC

[RAYNYSC]

It would help to train with someone legit in JKD to try & get a better understanding of what it is or isn't.....

RAYNYSC

[rogue]

Is Frank Cucci, one of Vu's famous SEAL students, considered legit?

"The bottom line is it shouldn't be about who is right or wrong instead it should be more about what works for you the individual that counts!"
Correct

"The art of Jeet Kune Do is about an individuals own process (def. A series of actions, changes, or functions bringing about a result) of growth no more no less!..."
Then JKD is not about "Reality Fighting"?

"It's Goju-Ryu not JKD".
Right, Ishhinryu is derived from Shorin & Goju styles of karate, but it isn't either of those styles and they're not Isshinryu. So does that mean that Shimabuku was a JKD concepts person? :)

So here's the argument, if a style can not be JKD, then JKD is not a concept(def A general idea derived or inferred from specific instances or occurrences) but a style, if it's a style it can be defined.

So define it.

It can't be 4Ranges "Reality Combat" definition since there are many so-called Reality based arts around now that aren't JKD (SCARS=JKD? :eek: ).

It's not about ranges since many traditional and MMA also train in various ranges and they're not JKD.

What exactly makes something JKD and something else not JKD?

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

[4 Ranges]

rogue:

are you interested in visiting our school? if you are, drop me a line. rpg30000@aol.com :D

Never confuse sparring with fighting. One is an exchange of skill; the other an exchange of blood.

[DaiKaiju]

QUOTE:"Well for starters if you were studying Goju-Ryu & useing only elements from that style how can you call JKD?.... It's Goju-Ryu not JKD."

Why can it not be called JKD? Isn't JKD based on the individual and not the masses and if the elements always worked for one person then logically his JKD is based on Goju.

QUOTE:"But then again like I said before! If what you're doing works for you. You can call it whatever you want! But that still doesn't make it JKD does it?"

If it works for me then it could be classified as JKD

QUOTE:"The way I see it....
The art of Jeet Kune Do is about an individuals own process of growth no more no less!...."

Did you come up with this little jem by yourself or did you read it somewhere, instead of using someone elses thoughts come up with something original.

QUOTE:"What exactly is that process?.... Is for the individual to find out for himself...."

So the person used in the example found out by himself that certain elements in said style worked, thus again it is his own personal JKD.

QUOTE:"Who cares where it comes from if you can work it then work it! But don't call it JKD!.... Call it what it is Boxing,Fencing,Wing chun,Judo,Jujitsu,Bjj,Kali,Pentjak Silat,Goju-Ryu, Tae Kwan Do or Shotokan Karate...."

Then step up and admit that you brain surgeons have made JKD into that which Bruce dispised, a style.

QUOTE:"Like I said before very few people get & fewer understand it.... The bottom line is it shouldn't be about who is right or wrong instead it should be more about what works for you the individual that counts!"

And by reading the brainless circular arguement that you post here in shows that you are one of many who DO NOT understand it.
I love Rogue's last post and agree with it completely.
:rolleyes:

That which does not kill you will only make you stronger, and if does kill you, then you sucked to begin with!!

[rogue]

DaiKaiju, we'll straighten out these guys yet. :)

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

[RAYNYSC]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You people have committed the very sin that Bruce Lee himself warned you not to commit,you are all caught up with a name. [/quote]

Really the way I see you have some issues there that you may want to address before you start talking all that BS you've poping!.... :eek:


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Why can it not be called JKD?
Isn't JKD based on the individual and not the masses and if the elements always worked for one person then logically his JKD is based on Goju [/quote] RIGHT :D if you say so :rolleyes:

The sad part about this? ....Is it seems that it's you who is caught up with the name JKD.... :p

If the system or style that one is using was Goju then thats what it is Goju where the hell did JKD come from? :confused:

At best I would have to say that what you're doing is Goju with the JKD mindset....

But even saying that would be far from the truth as each system/style or way of fighting has it's own mindset & ways of doing things.... :D

The way I see it, its you who needs to step it up there DaiKaiju & call what ever it is that your doing by it's name no more no less :D

If its JKD then Its JKD,if its Goju then its Goju
keep it real.... Cut the Bull....

RAYNYSC

[rogue]

Fine Ray, then what techniques and philosophy make up JKD?

"If people say that Jeet Kune Do is different from "this" or "that", then let the name of Jeet Kune Do be wiped out, for that is what it is, just a name. Please don't fuss over it."

Sounds like Lee meant JKD to be inclusive instead of exclusive.

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

[RAYNYSC]

I really couldn't say....Why don't you ask your new found partner Daikaiju.... :D

RAYNYSC

[DaiKaiju]

Raynysc, you could come up with the answer to your own question so you respond with hostility. This show your ignorance in said style. You make a argument and then can't back it up. Why waste your time and everyone elses. Get your facts together before you embarrass yourself again. And here I thought that you knew something about JKD when you acually don't. I admit I have no training in the style but I do not try and speak for it. Hey rogue I think you also hit a sore spot LOL
:rolleyes:

That which does not kill you will only make you stronger, and if does kill you, then you sucked to begin with!!

[rogue]

DaiKaiju, Hee hee hee :D :D :D It is somewhat entertaining.

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

[DaiKaiju]

Yes Rogue it is, You see I have nothing against JKD in any of its forms but I do have a problem with people with a cro-magnon look on Martial Arts. I have been studying Kendo for over 30 years and let me tell you the face of The art has changed badly in the last 15 years or so. You have these people who read a book or go to a so called seminar then they think and act like they know it all. But when you back them in a corner of their own making all you get is hostility and challenges. I wish we were in Feudal Japan so that all these fakes would be weeded out and the true Artists would shine. ;)

That which does not kill you will only make you stronger, and if does kill you, then you sucked to begin with!!

[loki]

Hey Ray,

Remember what I told you about an "affinity with swords"?...lol!

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

[loki]

Mighty quiet around here today..mmmmmmmnnn??? ;)

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

[rogue]

Shhh, we're looking up stuff in TOJKD.

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

[RAYNYSC]

The next thing you'll be telling me is that your name is Jubei & your partners name is Kagero....

Hey Daikaiju Not for nothing but every now & then people may need a reality check form time to time for them to realize ( for example )
You have as much of a chance of being in Feudal Japan today as I have of bring Bruce Lee back to life!.... :p

By own addmission you have stated that you've studied the traditional art of Kendo for 30 + years.... Really to tell you the truth!.... You sure don't sound like someone who has studied & trained in a traditional art such as Kendo let alone any other traditional art for that matter 30 + years .... :D ( your suspect )

My definition of JKD may not be as clear as I would like, but then again who's is?..... :confused:

Like I said before each of us in our own way may see & understand things differently.... ;)

Remember it can take years for someone to learn how to use there way of fighting.... ( meaning they are a part of it )What most people fail to see is that it takes even longer for someone to make there way of fighting a part of themselves.... ( meaning its a part of them )

There is a difference between the two after all.... :p

RAYNYSC

[rogue]

That's exactly the way karate is R. The McDojo denizen will learn a bunch of techniques, but if he fails to make karate (or any art) a part of his life, then he'll probably not be able to use it when he needs it. And as you stated that takes a long time to really achieve.

On the same note, you can't let the arts overwhelm your life either.

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

[DaiKaiju]

Again Raynysc, you show your mastery of the nuances of english.
I said 'I WISH WE WERE IN FEUDAL JAPAN' it was a wish not a delusion of reality, and for a gentleman who "SOUNDS" like he has voice in JKD, your the last to judge on my accomplishments.
loki, I do not understand what are you trying to imply. Please elaborate. ;)

That which does not kill you will only make you stronger, and if does kill you, then you sucked to begin with!!

[loki]

Hi Daikaiju ( GREAT/BIG MONSTER ).

Forget about what I am trying to imply. Maybe it does not refer to you after all. Allow me to explain. Myself and RAY have been under the impression that you are someone whom we both know and consider to be family. He is also a member of this forum who goes by another handle . We felt that this person was trying to anonomously dis Ray by publicly embarassing him, be it on spite or as a gag. I confronted this person and he swears it is not him. He stated that he was offended and would never do such a thing. At this point I have to believe him and take him for his word. So let me publicly apologize to him for thinking it was you and to you for thinking it was him. :)

Now , on to your ongoing "discussion" with Ray. I know I told you on the other thread that I did not need to stick up for him but I feel , as he is my brother that I have to say a few things. Ray may not be able to explain the definition of JKD to your satisfaction ( even though you yourself say you are not in any way involved with the system )but I can vouch for him in saying that he is involved with it and can take care of himself . I feel this is more important. I've seen many people who can impress you with a well written article or verbally explain theories , techniques , etc. with eloquence but when it comes time to show what they have , they are laughable at best. I can assure you this is not the case with Ray. We are both in our early 30's and we go back to elementary school. We have been involved with the martial arts since our very early teens and have been in "battles" together. I don't mean tournament battles either.
Anyway, I'm not trying to pat either one of us on the back. My point is simply that you cannot judge someone by what they write sometimes. If that were the case I would have to conclude that your 30 years in the art of Kendo have taught you nothing. Why do I say this? Because I would have to think that someone who is your age and has been involved with an art for so many years, an art which from my understanding really stresses humility and respect would not get on a forum to bash someone he does not know about a system he has nothing to do with. I would think this sort of behaviour would be beneath you. But I should not assume that because I do not know you, right? For all I know you may be one bad mother..or you may not be good enough to beat anybody's mother, I don't know. Either way I always try to show respect even when I disagree with someone. If you learn nothing else in your journey through the martial road, you should learn this. Debate is good but only when both sides are respectful toward one another and are willing to admit that they do not know everything and could actually learn something new from the person you are debating. If you don't learn anything then just go about your business and keep doing your thing. There's enough room here for everyone. Maybe you can come up with an interesting topic you would like to discuss? In case you have'nt noticed this particular thread is one of the more popular ones on the JKD forum so Ray did something right, eh?

Well, take this for what it's worth.

Peace

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER

[Gojira]

Dear Mr. Giant Monster, I happen to be the other person that Loki, suspected of being you. I would have to agree with Loki and Ray when it comes to their knowlegde. I have grown up with both these men and have "battled" with both also. Now while I'm not at par with either I can assure you that they can take care of themselves. And yes I can say then even thought Ray himself at times may not seen to come across well on the written word, he does know what he is talking about. Now I am far from the most humble guy on this board but I'll say this, you are one of the most arrogant of people I have seen on this board. (Other than a shivering, stuttering, inbred, defective lama I could mention)
Loki was right when he stated that you sir lack the humility of a true martial artist from the age you speak of.
I have read up on iae-do (sp?) and I was always amazed of the humility that all true swordsmen had in the day.
If you do study Kendo and the way of the Samurai is your final goal, well I have to say this.....
You missed.


Bunnies eat radishes, to make babies, thank you. :rolleyes:

[DaiKaiju]

My dear gojira, it looks like you and loki have taken up for poor old defenseless Raynysc. Loki I can understand, but you? Aren't you the troll who badmouthed Sifu Ross and then when he challenged you, you disappeared like a mongrel dog with his tail between his legs.
I would keep my yap shut if I was you due to the fact you have less crediblity than Raynysc has.
:rolleyes:

That which does not kill you will only make you stronger, and if does kill you, then you sucked to begin with!!

[rogue]

Aren't we getting a bit off track? It's a philosophical question that has nothing to do with the effectiveness of JKD, whatever the proper definition of it is. The discussion is supposed to be more fun than something to get worked up over. After all, it's just a name.

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

[loki]

The way I see it, they should just get rid of the name since noone seems to able able to explain it anyway. I think Bruce made reference to this some where did he not?

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

[Gojira]

Sorry I haven't answered quicker, as for my issue with ross, I just went thru a death in my family so that kind of derailed that, but I assure you I will deal with him when time permits.
As for you, you are seem to be a hostile person with a ax to grind. I have never made myself to be any bigger than I am. Unlike quite a few on this board which I'll spare everyone from naming.
And there are quite a few on this board that do not like me either, honestly I couldn't care less. If you want to talk trash, fine I can keep up with the best of them, But I think that barking the way you do is nothing but a waste of time.
Boston huh? hmmmm Delta shuttle right? :eek:

Bunnies eat radishes to make babies, thank you.

[RAYNYSC]

Since I need to get my facts together as you put it!
Why don't tell me what these facts are?.....

& while your at it maybe you can tell me how you know so much about JKD,when by your own admission you've stated that you have NO TRAINING in said style.... :D

RAYNYSC

[dumog93]

I caught up on the back and forth discussion and have a few things to add.If we are going to define jkd i think we should also define the goals of martial artists.First off i would define jkd as a system and a concept.The concept is to find a combination of techinques that cover all the ranges.This i think a lot of martial arts are evolving to do.The second part of the jkd mindset is where some arts fail to keep up imho.The second part would be the ability to change gears or your approach so to speak in mid-stream.The ability to flow from a quick,agile boxer to a pounding,punishing,strength type of energy.I'm sure people will argue with that...even jkd specialists.This might be blasphemy too,but i have yet to see the person that is the living embodiment of jkd to me(including Bruce).I would even hazard a guess that he would have told you that himself(it's not that he's great,it's that the rest of us really aren't good at all kind of thing).I think one of the examples he used was perfect in explaining jkd.I can't remember the exact quote,but to paraphrase it was compared to the Chinese language and how the language started simple,then grew too complex and cumbersome eventually being trimmed down to a simpler more streamlined form.I try to do this in my life as much as possible.Jkd is pretty much a way of life for me.I fail in many respects,but my small victories are sweet.
I personally wouldn't call a style jkd,but would rather label it as a hybrid of x,y and z.I wouldn't even say the concept was new.I think people have done it to some degree or another since the dawn of time or we wouldn't have so many styles with many of them having the same root.I guess the things a martial artist should ask himself at the end of the day are:1-what are my goals in training martial arts? 2-how realistic are the techniques i am using(will they work in a full speed event)3-am i training my body to be as balaced as my martial arts(is my body type a hybrid of strength/agility/stamina to a level that will work).That's just my short list.Of course everyone will be stronger in different facets of the total package-stronger,quicker,tougher,more sensitive...but we should all strive to hit some kind of balance.
I think most of us are going for the same goal and arguing over the definitions.When i meet someone that is a martial artist i think of them as just that.Of course i form my own opinions on how well some of the things they use will work,or how well the particular guy can perform,but i try to see it all in the same light.I just think it's silly to get caught up in a vicious argument over the definition of something hardly anyone can agree over.We could argue over something more defineable,like how i think such and such technique is garbage or how i can get my knees to quit thinking they are 50 at age 30.

-Devildog

[RAYNYSC]

Good post Dumog....

RAYNYSC

[VingTsun81]

Hey i was just wanting to let you all in on what makes JKD, JKD. JKD is what Bruce Lee decided to call his martial art.he wanted something simple. Jeet Kune Do means "The way of the intercepting fist". Its major ideas was to not have a style at all. Styles confind a person and he wanted everyone to be formless so that they could assume all forms. So Jeet Kune Do is Jeet Kune Do, there is no other art that can be JKD, it is simply Bruce Lee's "style" of fighting.
I hope i made it clear enough but if anyone has any questions just e mail me or post it.
"The art of Jeet Kune Do is simply to simplify."

[RAYNYSC]

Hey Daikaiju,
So what exactly were those facts again that I needed to get together?.....

RAYNYSC

[DaiKaiju]

The fact that you have no conception of what you speak on. Time to give it up, what are you a book/video martial artist, who has never studied under a true master? Time to pay the piper.LOL

That which does not kill you will only make you stronger, and if does kill you, then you sucked to begin with!!

[RAYNYSC]

I'm still waiting for you to tell me the exact facts that I need to get together.... :rolleyes:

By the way in case you forgot you still haven't answered my other question as to how you know so much about JKD when you have no training in said stlye?.... :eek:

I know why you haven't answered!.... It's because your full of it & as for saying that you've been studying the Martial Arts for 30 years go's Please! give it up.... :rolleyes:

Anyone who has spent 30 years of there life to the study of The Martial Arts should have more respect for it.... :D
Since it seems like you have no respect for The Martial Arts....

I would have to say that it looks to me like your the one who has never studied under a True Master as you put.... & even if you did I'm more then sure now that your so called 30 year of training is all in your head.....LOL

But then again maybe you got hit over the head one to many times with a kendo stick.... :mad:

RAYNYSC

[rogue]

Ray, did you catch Demis article in BB? Pretty good.


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

[DaiKaiju]

Ahhh my poor Raynysc, again you show how bright you are.
After this post I am done with you.
My point at the beginning of this thread was JKD was a personal expression of one's fighting ability, regardless of one background in martial arts, may it be in Judo, Kendo, Aikido, Karate, Kung Fu, etc...
Now I say this from reading up on what BL stated about what JKD was.
Rogue, brought up a excellent point saying that a man/woman who only studied karate and if it worked for them, this would be construed as JKD.
You then blunder in saying no, then spewing some psycobabble that this couldn't be so, that JKD was about simplifying.
I came back and said if I studied a style of karate, took out just what worked for me, it would be my own JKD, You said no, but did not give a intelligent and valid reason to why not. I have also noticed that many of your posts on this forum are much of the same, you either agree with someone elses thought yet do not come up with any original thought of your own. I ponder this quandry. Then you have people (friends I suppose) either question my background, or outright insult me. I wasn't the vague one here, you were. All you do here is quote, nothing else, thus showing me that you are like the old adage: Monkey see, Monkey do, but Monkey no think. :eek: :rolleyes:
Then you attack me one my knowledge of JKD but I WASN'T THE ONE WHO STARTED THE BLOODY THREAD!!
So instead of character attacks, speak like you know, and if you don't....then silence can save one a lot of chagrin later on.
I'm done with this.

That which does not kill you will only make you stronger, and if does kill you, then you sucked to begin with!!

[rogue]

I agree with you DaiKaiju, but then you're not a part of the JKD club. There are things in the minds of some JKD students that will never be changed, example TKD kicks bad, Savate kicks good. Why? I don't really know. I would say go and try a JKD school to get a feel for the art, but first read this months Black Belt and the article on JKD by Demi Barbito(sp? sorry Demi). He addresses some of the issues brought up here about JKD.

Try the main forum which is much more open to topics of debate. You'll get disagreed with there but it's a friendlier bunch.


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

[RAYNYSC]

Hey Rogue,
Demi Bardito's article was a really good one.....

RAYNYSC

[loki]

Why would anyone want to call what they do, be it Karate, Aikido Tae Kwon Do, Kung Fu, Boxing, etc., JKD? Just call it what it is. JKD means " Way of the Intercepting Fist" . It was a principle for Bruce, a theory which he adopted from the Wing Chun system. Bascically, Bruce wanted to teach that you should hit your opponent at the very moment when he begins to attack you. In other words, allow the the opponent to make the first move thus he commits himself then you "beat him to the punch" as they say. To put it in simpler terms it is called the "stop hit". Like I said this was borrowed from the Wing Chun system...although this principle is not exclusive to said system . The point being that's what JKD was but it is not what JKD is today. It was not a style then because it was based on a principle. It was a principle from a style yes but what Bruce was trying to do was to utilize this principle with techniques from other systems, not only Wing Chun. So what he was doing was taking a principle which is not a system and making it apply to all the systems that he came into contact with. What many people fail to realize is that every system that exists has started with a set of principles so it was not a style at first and through time it evolved into a system with it's own principles, theories, techniques, structure, etc. and JKD has been no exception. JKD is a style plain and simple. What makes JKD JKD? What you practise has to have come down from Bruce himself, down to Inosanto and all of Bruce's other students and down to their students to you. If what you are doing did not come down through this line in any way then what you are doing is not JKD. Personally, I feel that JKD is a system which is lacking. That is not to say that Inosanto is lacking as I feel that this man is a great martial artist but that JKD without Dan's personal touch ie. Filipino ma's etc. , is not much of a martial art. JKD has survived this long because Inosanto has kept it alive through his own personal arts, but those arts are not JKD, they are what they are. Regardless, JKD has become an art which has many different other arts in it's curriculum and it is today a style. If it's practitioners could see this alot of this debate would not exist.

Peace

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

[RAYNYSC]

Hey Daikaiju


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"My point at the beginning of this thread was JKD was a personal expression of one's fighting ability,reguardless of one's backround in martial arts,may it be in Judo,Kendo,Karate,KungFu,etc"...
Now I say this from reading up on what BL stated about what JKD was."[/quote]


So I take that you know that Bruce Lee trained & or exchanged ideas with some of the best Judo,Karate,KungFu,Grappling men of his time people like.

1) Wally Jay-Judo
2) Jhoon Rhee-Tae Kwon Do
3) Chuck Norris-Tang Soo Do
4) Joe Lewis-Karate
5) Mike Stone-Karate
6) Gene Lebell-Grappling
7) Ed Parker-Kenpo
Not to mention Yip Man his Sifu in Wing Chun as well as his Si-hings like Hawkins Chung & William Chung just to name a few....

Did it ever cross your mind as to why Bruce Lee may have trained & or exchanged theories,principles & concepts of fighting with these people?....
Especially since all of the mentioned where at the top of there fighting or Teaching Game when Bruce Lee was around.....

So tell me why was that if you can?....
I'll tell you why At least the way I see it & maybe if you get your head out of your ass long enough you just might understand what I'm trying saying in sted of talking all that BS you've been talking..... :D

One of the reasons I feel that Bruce Lee trained so much was because he realized that no one system had all the answers..... (Be it Kung Fu, Karate, Judo, Grappling, or Boxing)But he realized each of these systems in there own way Share something (like flow) at one point or an other weather you see it or not it's up to you!.... ;)
It all comes down on how you train & drill what you do..... Like I said before if what you do works for you then you can call it what ever you want.... :D But that doesn't make it Jeet Kune Do now does it? It sounds to me like you need to do some more reading if you believe that it does as I'm more then sure that any of the masters that have been mentioned would tell you what there doing is not Jeet Kune Do it's a form of Karate,Judo,KungFu,Grappling now why is that?....
Well I don't know about you but if I was training in KungFu,Karate,Judo or Grappling then I would say thats what it was,why say it's something else when it's not?.... :confused:

What you need to understand is that BL knew that each system has someting to offer at some point the key here was learning to take advantage & make the most of the opportunity when made or given to you! No more no less....

This to me is what Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do is about,now as for Jun Fan?.... Jun Fan is about the basics that he felt that one should have before one can begin to understand what JKD is or isn't!....

Jun Fan trains one in learning the difference in the ranges of fighting like kicking range,Boxing Range as well as Grappling range....
Which in turn gives you the individual an all around base to start from.... (Meaning it doesn't matter what you're using reguardless of the system, what matters here is that you the individual understands that the art of Jeet Kune Do is about transcendence in short it's about the individual no longer doing it but the individual being it!....)

So you see Before you can go around saying that what you're doing is Jeet Kune Do you need to learn what Jan Fan is & I'm not just talking about reading about it!....

But training it with someone who knows it!..... :p

RAYNYSC

[This message was edited by RAYNYSC on 07-02-01 at 11:31 PM.]

[This message was edited by RAYNYSC on 07-02-01 at 11:36 PM.]

[rogue]

Ray you're losing me. So one needs to specifically take Jun Fan to take JKD?


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

[RAYNYSC]

I believe it would help Rogue,
You may or may not agree with this & thats fine....

All I'm saying is that there are alot of people out there who say that they know Karate,Kung Fu,Boxing,Grappling or what ever it is they call what there doing....
That doesn't make it JKD after all JKD in its own way has a set of principles as well as theories & concepts that come from Jun Fan.....

So how can one say that what there doing is JKD when they don't know what Jun Fan is?....

In short all I'm saying is that before anyone can say that they understand JKD they should at least have some type of training in Jun Fan Regardless of your martial arts backround....

RAYNYSC

[rogue]

So at what point does Jun Fan turn into JKD? :confused:


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

[RAYNYSC]

I believe thats where individual prefrence comes in.... :D

[This message was edited by RAYNYSC on 07-04-01 at 07:53 PM.]

[rogue]

I'm really interested Ray, when did your JF turn into JDK? And what preferences did you have?


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

[RAYNYSC]

Hey Rogue,
I never said nor am I an authority on JKD...I just give input from my own personal experience and what I've read.

Question: When did my JF turn into JKD & what are my preferences?...

Answer: My personal opinion is that JKD is supposed to be about the individual learning what works for him.... ;)

As well as having some type of understanding as to what Jeet Kune Do is about. A good place to start is to learn Jun Fan as it's Jeet Kune Do's core/base....

Now as far as preferences are concerned all I say is this: modify,modify,modify. After all JKD is about what works for you the individual....

What may work for you may not work for me but that doesn't make what I'm doing less effective especailly if we are using the same concept,system or style.....

As all that would mean is that either you or me have found how to use what we're doing differently yet effectively to our own indiviuality.... :D

RAYNYSC

[lotusleaf]

I think what makes jkd different is that it has taken a lot of the other styles and forms and techniques and it has stripped them to their bare essentials. It is like a chameleon. It adapts to its environment by changing colors. Jkd adapts by gathering roots from other MA's and using them to bring down the opponent.

I think it's a way of thinking that Bruce Lee just put a name to. He has personalized his own fighting style from wing chun, western boxing and footwork of fencing, plus throws from judo, grappling, shoot fighting. I think it is trying to tell people that Jkd is a personalized art designed for your body and yours alone. For example: If you take karate, you can make that your own art. You can take away the useless static stances and incorporate a better fighting stance from boxing or other martial arts, you can take away that block then strike mentality and practice so that you can block/strike at the same time. Incorporate some boxing punches or strikes from other martial arts.

The thing is just gather ideas and knowledge from your research and develop them one by one. If you learned a new throw, then develop that until it's perfect and you can incorporate that into your "tools".

It's basically a way of thinking that jkd is what you make it to be.

[popsider]

JKD seems to be anything that its instructors say it is. The core of it is based on what Bruce Lee and his early students were interested in training, and to that has been added what the better known practitioners of today have wanted to add.

In other words if it is anything it is a belief in cross training techniques from different martial arts to create a blend that suits the individual.

Bruce Lee was primarily a martial arts film star. He was a very talented martial artist but was too young and had trained for an insufficient time to really create his own art with an underlying set of principles. Perhaps his charisma and the personality he projected on screen obscures the fact that there were many people better qualified than him to start developing fighting styles. I think the fact that JKD has diversified so far and so fast proves the point that it does not really have the depth of a traditional system.

[harley]

not that you need any help Ray, i just thought i would actually say something this time instead of just watching for your respones.
JKD is complicated. let's start with Lee Jun Fan Gung fu.
the actual physical techniques Sijo Lee taught are from the style Lee Jun Fan Gung Fu. it has techniques, rank, and a structure to be followed. this system contains elements of wing chun and other systems you guys have already memorized the names of.
JKD is the highest level of martial arts, where "you" are NO LONGER BOUND BY PERSONAL LIMITAITONS. limitations of style, fear or personal prejudice. Sijo Lee used to say that a song was JKD, or that a meal was JKD. remember it was the 60's and early 70's. his philosophical method of teaching was "HIP" at the time.
As far as by-passing LEE JUN FAN and combining other systems to create JKD, well it's not possible. here's why. Lee Jun Fan Gung Fu containes all the necessary physical examples of the concepts contained in Jeet Kune Do! Without Jun Fan you will have no examples of how to intercept or how to trap. Yes there is structure in Jun Fan, because structure creates ecomomy of motion, speed and power, maximum effectiveness etc. Next you have to add the human element, if you add BJJ, KARATE, JUDO AND KEMPO, you might end up with a well rounded system but, JKD is Sijo Bruce Lee's personal expression on combat. His road. it just so happens he helped others down the same road of personal expression by teaching and leaving us both Jun Fan Gung Fu and Jeet Kune Do Concepts.
So all that being said, Lee Jun Fan Gung Fu is a style, Jeet Kune Do is more than a style but a guided path toward personal freedom in combat, using concepts to explore the world of martial arts. Jeet kune Do can be taught, but it can never be standardized.
I hope this helps, i realize that JKD is complicated and difficult to comprehend from the outside, my suggestion is study under Guro Inosanto or a qualified Instuctor and begin the journey for yourself.
Harley

[RAYNYSC]

Thank you Sifu Harley, it's always an honor & privilege to have your input.
All the best to you & the Warriors Way Academy!....

A fighter will block where a master will attack

RAYNYSC

[harley]

Good to see you agian ray. it was a pleasure having you down at the Sifu Francis Fong seminar. I hope you enjoyed working with him. I'm sorry I didn't get to spend more time training you personally but as you know I was tied up with Sifu Fong.
As for your discussions on the forum here, I think that as long as people keep things in a positive light, with true intentions of learning and growing alot can be learned, from questions raised and answers researched. Keep up the good work and I look forward to working with you again soon. Harley

[Wongsifu]

hi guys sorry to but in like this just found the post and thought id add my 2 cents.

Now im sure you all know im a notorious bruce lee ..... erm disliker. but heres my 2 cents.

The reason i really disklike jkd is beecause nobody knew what it was, its because it didnt really exist as such but every idiot tries to make 2 bucks out of it and nooooooneeee of them are accomplished martial ARTISTS notice the word artists.


look at this ok.

Bruce lee had a training schedule and he wanted to practise what was effective so he says, different ranges, different attacks, we need that, power and speed we need that, different intensity, wee need that.
So he took what worked for him and he practised it. He liked it so he named it JKD jun fan whatever.
Now years after this he starts to realise hey wait a minute we dont need to be set by strict forms, we just need to react, lets practise this, so he said we have to be formless.

THis is what every single martial art which is good has in it from tai chi to karate.

the thing is once you reach a high level it becomes formless on its own because you react with whatever the body suits you.

This is why i hate it when people say stupidities liek jkd is not a style jkd is a concept.
what a load of carp jkd is a style, in it you learn kicks punches and things which are definite like sraight blast or funny football side kick. This makes it a style.

By your definition jkd is what someone does the first time he gets into a little rough and tumble in the school yard .

If it wasnt a style every jkd instructor wouldnt stand just like bruce did and say... now stand naturally its not a stance stand however you want.
AND THEN turn around and say,,, erm but bend your knees if someone kicks you hard they could break.

All jkd is.. is bruce lees training regimen for the first mixed martial art.

I wongsifu shall strike fear into the hearts of trolls and mma guys who **** me off on these forums oh and in real life.

[curtis]

J.K.D. is dead!
The art died with Bruce Lee. His concepts and principles survive of course,
but most people do not know how to use them. (You say "BUT" he taught many
people his art, before he died.) The people who know J. K. D cannot or will
not teach it, for it is personal to them. Let me put it this way. In order
to make a technique work, you need (let us say) four elements: A, B, C and
D. Any problems yet? But because of your nature, background, and or
individual liking you do A&B naturally. Bruce would teach you're missing C
& D. (And BOOM, you can do it!) The only problem is, you cannot teach it,
since you are not aware of all the parts (A&B is part of you! But C&D is
what was taught) And You can only show others what you know. Some people
can learn, but most cannot. You must have a solid background, In order to
build a good base to build from. Without that base there will always be
gaps in your learning (no matter how hard you try.)
All too many people can read and recite principles that Bruce Lee taught,
but all too many do not know what they mean. What they think they know,
they don't. and they don't known that THEY DONT KNOW.
Let me restate that. The proof is in the pudding. Can you make it work, As
naturally or as efficiently, has Bruce Lee did? If not, you do not know the
technique.
BUT there is hope!
For those who want to learn Bruce's art. There are a number of original
students left, who can teach what they know. Jesse Glover (Bruce's first
student) and James DeMile are two people that come to mind. (There are a
few others.) They do not teach Jeet Kune Do but do teach what Bruce did
(Bruce's fighting art). I suggest if you want to learn, do your homework.
There are many good teachers in many good arts to learn from; but there are
very few people to teach you what Bruce Lee did. There is nothing wrong
with doing your own thing. But there is something wrong with someone who
teaches you incorrectly, be careful my friends, don't be taken by a fraud.
Find out more about J. K. D. before you start.
Sincerely yours, C.A.G.

[taba]

why cannot make distinction between concept jkd (continuous change and adaptation, attributes over technique, range, flow) and style jkd (technique)?

a style jkd could fail to conform to concept jkd if resists change (kali integration).

likewise, mixed martial arts not considered concept jkd if fail to flow. but could, if did.

(do appreciate style jkd not eclectic.)

harley: my impression is that cross-training muay thai/bjj against progressive resistance about as concept jkd as can be. not so?

raynysc: jun fan may/may not be a better style, but why would necessarily lead to a better understanding of concept jkd? assuming are referring to isanto/pfs/jkdu/straightblast style jkd and not ‘traditional’ jun fan.

[RAYNYSC]

Hey Taba,
No offense but I don't understand what in the blue blazes you're talking about.... :D
You mind running that by me agian.

A fighter will block where a master will attack

RAYNYSC

[taba]

sorry ray,

let me ask you - if said practiced jkd, would you not wish to know if was either

a) a film fan who practiced jun fan forms before mirror?

or

b) a mt/bjj athlete?

that the distinction see between jkd style and concept.

[RAYNYSC]

Hey Taba,
The way I see it if you're a film fan who practice's Jun Fan Forms in front of a mirror as you put it.... I would have to say that at best all you would be doing is mimicking what you've seen on film....

I don't know about you?.... But I wouldn't exactly call that Jun Fan, but hey thats just me....

Now as for being a Muay Thai/BJJ athlete go's that means nothing as well as that doesn't make it Jun Fan now does it, but hey thats just me....

Just for the record I would be more interested in knowing who have you trained with or under as well as how long have you trained in said system/stlye/concept of fighting?....

A fighter will block where a master will attack

RAYNYSC

[taba]

hey ray,

sorry not doing v good job explaining point.

would not agree that film fan is certainly not doing concept jkd?

would contend that mt/bjj is.

was really trying to understand why you believed practicing jun fan tech was somehow more in alignment with concept jkd than any other mma.

assume related to how believe jun fan becomes jkd?

would not any comprehensive art practiced with jkd concepts lead to same jkd state-of-grace?

thanks for patience.

[curtis]

Jeet Kune Do/ jun fun gungfu

I am not too sure you'll like to hear the definition I was taught.
After Bruce Lee develops is fighting techniques, and he felt comfortable about fighting he decided to teach what he had developed to make money. He called the jun fun (his Cantonese name, jun fun Lee)
what Bruce did was to teach his fighting concepts. (Not Jeet Kune Do) jun fun gungfu is more a refined wing chun base fighting style. He kept the best of wing chun and modified it adding elements from other arts, as well as other scientific approaches, to look at and develop his fighting techniques.

Now where does Jeet Kune Do fit in?
Again time. Later when Bruce Lee got into movies (his Hollywood period.) he decided to change, to fit the new society he was in. (The flashy stuff everybody wanted to see, mixed in with his fighting concepts. )
Later after Bruce Lee death Jeet Kune Do took on a life of its own.
Years after the Jeet Kune Do people realize there was something missing, and decided to look back at what Bruce Lee was doing and early years. Since both jun fun/Jeet Kune Do were Bruce Lees arts, they merged and became one art...
Now/ today it is very difficult to figure out where one begins in the other ends.
My suggestion if you want to know more. Ask an expert Howard Williams comes to mind. He studied and was taught by Bruce Lee. He never trained in anything but jun fun gungfu, I am sure he can give you all proper responses to your questions.
Sincerely C.A.G.

[RAYNYSC]

Taba,

Jun Fan is the base/core of jeet kune do. In jun fan one learn's the basic training methods,strategies,techniques etc.

In other words the concepts & principles in jun fan are the same ones that you will find in jeet kune do be it jun fan/jeet kune do or jeet kune do concepts....

Think about it how can someone say that they know jeet kune do without ever learning jun fan which by the way is also known as original jeet kune do.... :D


A fighter will block where a master will attack

RAYNYSC

[taba]

ray,

see you do 7*mantis and "jkd concepts".

mean you practice 2 styles - 7* and jun fan?

or pracice 7* with jkd concepts?


if simply reflects sequential order - could you not now return to 7* and practice with jkd concepts? or there something in 7* that precludes?

believe can apply jkd concepts outside the martial arts? adaptability, awareness, etc?

[taba]

really asking this - am I unable to understand jkd concepts from research (tojkd, inosanto's jkd: art and philosophy of lee, vunak's jkd: concept and philosophies, and related - ed parker, bob orlando, mma lessons, etc)? what special about jun fan?

[RAYNYSC]

Hey Taba,
I train both when I can reguardless....
Just for the record a big part of the Martial Arts that's over looked most of the time is the learning how to apply it's concepts,principles & so on to everyday life....


A fighter will block where amaster will attack

RAYNYSC

[RAYNYSC]

To tell you the truth nothing is & I might add that this go's for all the other systems as well!....
Everyone out there that you meet now a days say's that there system is better then someone else's another system give me a brake already with that bull!.... :D
The bottom line here is you're only going to get out what you put in no more no less....

Thats why when it come's down to the martial arts
its not just about the system as one would have you think, It's about the indivdual who is training in said system that counts....


A fighter will block where a master will attack

RAYNYSC

[curtis]

If you believe that the individual is the only important part of the martial art's you couldn't be further from the truth. Even SunTza stated. The truth in combat, is different for each individual.
How can you experience the truth, with out experiencing what the other person knows. (To really know a man, you must first walk-in his shoes.)
JKD concepts are too vast for a lot of people. (Do your own thing) but jun fan gungfu isn't Jeet Kune Do. If you do not understand the concepts that make it work. How can you judge it?
With out understanding the centerline principal, how can you use?
With out knowing what is the immovable elbow concept, or how to use the single unit movement , AND not to mention what are parameters? You cannot begin to understand.

If you choose to be like water, (as Bruce stated) you must realize, even water if held in your cup too long will stagnant, let water be free in order to flow.
Just my humble advice.
C.A.G.

[gungfuguy]

just a couple thoughts...

Jun Fan and JKD are NOT the same. Jun Fan is based on Wing Chun and HAS a foundation. JKD is formless and shapeless like water in a cup...it forms to the cup. The problem is, you're trying to fill a strainer. All those holes will become a problem for you. What is your purpose for learning MA? Bruce's reason was to become a good fighter (the best actually). IF that is the case you have to evaluate yourself in those terms without prejudice and bias. Are you really effective...or is it fantasy??

Some systems are quite effective as a combat art. Others are more a way of life. Some are just beautiful to watch in motion. Which are you involved in? Is that where you want to be?

To say that any art is effective if you devote yourself to it is a naive comment. If you completely dedicate yourself to Tai Chi, you will have gained quite a bit of benefit, but are you an effective fighter? Again what is your purpose? You have to dedicate yourself to something that will meet your goals.

Just my thoughts.

Good Luck.

<font color="royal blue" size="5" face="Comic Sans MS"><marquee direction="left">GungFuGuy</marquee></font>

[RAYNYSC]

When asked about what is "original" jeet kune do & how does it differ from jeet kune do "concepts"....

Guro/Sifu Dan Inosanto who is one of only three people in the world who was hand picked by Bruce Lee himself to teach the art of jkd....

Answered:
Actually,there is no dfference between original jeet kune do & jeet kune do concepts because,to practice the concepts of jeet kune do, one has to know the original jeet kune do material, which is called Jun Fan kung fu. I use the term jeet kune do concepts to emphasize that jeet kune do is a concept. Jeet kune do was Bruce's personal research & development in what worked for him in combat.Can you teach jeet kune do? I have always said "Yes." Can you standardize jeet kune do? I say "No." Because in Bruce's own words, "Jeet kune do is finding the cause of your own ignorance. Jeet kune do favors the formless. Jeet kune do utilizes all ways & is bound by none." Since each individual is different,he must find the cause of his own ignorance & must utilize all the ways that personally fit him.

So original jeet kune do is really Jun Fan kung fu, the material that was handed down by Bruce when he was alive. Jun Fan kung fu can be taught & is standardized so that students can learn it easily. Jun fan kung fu provides the basic training methods,techniques,strategies,principles & concepts for combat & self-defense. Jun Fan kung fu basics prepare you for your own personal way of combat.

Look's to me like it's the two of you who are off base here but then again maybe it's just me....


A fighter will block where a master will attack

RAYNYSC

[Spectre]

I was recently reading some article on Hawkins Cheung's website regarding Bruce, Wing Chun, and Jeet Kune Do. Hawkins is a Wing Chun practitioner but quite a bit of what he writes regarding Jeet Kune Do is right on.

Give it a read and let me know what you think.

http://www.hawkinscheung.com/

Continued blessings in your life and your training.

The key to understanding is to open your mind and your heart and then the eyes will follow.

[gungfuguy]

The main point I am trying to get at is this: in your previous posts you say more or less that those who know JKD must have already learned Jun Fan, and that the system is meaningless anyway and that the most important thing is how much effort you put into it.

Jun Fan and JKD aren't the same. Maybe they should be...according to your quote of Dan Inosanto, he says, they SHOULD be the same. He says that you need to learn Jun Fan in order to comprehend JKD concepts. I agree with this. This however, doesn't necessarily mean that is what all JKD instructors are teaching, or what the students are doing.

I respectfully disagree with what you have stated. I agree that JKD students SHOULD learn Jun Fan, but I haven't seen much evidence of that being true. What should be, and what IS, are two different things. It is my understanding that Sifu Dan has distanced himself from JKD because there are so many people who are not following Bruce's foundation...they do their own thing and call it Bruce's art, but giving it that name doesn't make it so.

Jun Fan is one of Bruce’s foundations. JKD is his concept that techniques and styles will dissolve in your highest evolution of martial arts, regardless of the system.

JKD cannot be taught. It must be learned. (And they are not the same thing.)

<font color="royal blue" size="5" face="Comic Sans MS"><marquee direction="left">GungFuGuy</marquee></font>

[gungfuguy]

RAYNYSC, I enjoy your difference of opinions. Ultimately we may read the same material, we may learn from the same master and it would be possible that we would never agree that what we have learned was the same thing.

Also just a note...when I say that JKD cannot be taught I refer to JKD as the ultimate evolution of a person where he no longer has regard for technique or style, but his actions just become an expression of himself. This is what Bruce said many times. That can be learned...a master can help me reach that development...but he cannot teach it, for it is a different path for each individual.

Take care.

<font color="royal blue" size="5" face="Comic Sans MS"><marquee direction="left">GungFuGuy</marquee></font>

[RAYNYSC]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"The main point I am trying to get at is this:In your previous posts you say more or less that those who know jkd must have already learned jun fan, and that the system is meaningless anyway and that the most important thing is how much effort you put into it." [/quote]

Hey Gungfuguy,
Not for nothing but it seems to me that you've missed understood what I've been saying....
First of all I never said that those who say they know jeet kune do must have already learnded jun fan now did I?....
What I said was if someone is going to say that what they're doing/teaching is jeet kune do then they should at least have some type of training in jun fan before they can say that they have any idea as to what jun fan/jeet kune do is or isn't not to mention what jeet kune do concepts is or isn't!.... if they can't then I guess what they're doing isn't jeet kune do at all....

But hey thats just my opinion on this topic.... :D

I'll just say this if you're going to say that you know jeet kune do then you should have some type of training in jun fan as it's the base/core of jeet kune do Reguardless of how you may see it.
(Be it Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do or Jeet Kune Do Concepts)

Now as far as jkd being at it's ultimate part of it's evolution as you put it more or less right.... :confused:


I would have to say that the ultimate goal for any jeet kune do man is to learn about the transcendence of jkd
meaning that the individual is no longer doing it, he is it....

Like I said before you are only going to get out of it what you put into it!.... in other words you can't expect to learn or retain anything worth learning without training it now can you :rolleyes: ( Just something to think about )

A fighter will block where a master will attack

RAYNYSC

[This message was edited by RAYNYSC on 10-04-01 at 09:39 PM.]

[curtis]

Ray
the history stands. (You have done a nice job of back tracking) I to understood you to say" Jeet Kune Do/jun fan are the same thing. With that statement you started the whole thing off.
I will agree they do have the same roots, and many of the same concepts, BUT they are different .
If you can agree that. There will be no argument.


Howard Williams is the leader of junfan movement, and if I understand him right, he will try to take over Jeet Kune Do as system, and try to put it back contract.


(As gungfu guy stated) what is, and what should be, are not the same thing.

Gungfu guy. You have done a great job with your commentary. I almost felt off my seat. Laughing at your version of water taking shape.

Thank you Ray and Gungfu guy.
Sincerely C.A.G.

[RAYNYSC]

What make's Jun Fan so different from Jeet Kune Do Concepts?.... If they both have the same roots not to mention share many of the same concepts....

Like I said before It all comes down to individual prefrence regaurdless of how you may see it be it Jun Fan or Jeet Kune Do Concepts....

As they are both expressions of what we have come to know as Jeet Kune Do....
Think about it there are those out there who define Jun Fan as original Jeet Kune Do because Jun Fan is the method of training & fighting developed & handed down by Bruce Lee....

Now keep in mind that Jun Fan is considerard the base/core of Jeet Kune Do as Jun Fan basics prepare you the individual for your own personal way of combat....

So you see its like I said before It all comes down to the individual prefrence of how you see it or come to understand it....

By the way you mentioned that Howard Williams is the leader of the Jun Fan movement & will try to take over Jeet Kune Do as a system & put it back on track if I read you right whats that all about?....

A fighter will block where a master will attack

RAYNYSC

[curtis]

Hi Ray. I will keep this short,
to start with Howard Williams, Inside Kungfu mag. did two articals on him, with in the last two years.(look them up,thay are in there arcives.)

Ok if you put the concepts aside, and look at the system its self,jun fan is whingchun based.(ray go back to one of my first articals, I covered the elements of teaching.)
Remember we are talking about(a man who wanted to the fastest gun in the west)Bruce Lee did not want anyone to beat him, so he started leaveing small elements out,that made the teckniques work,
Latter He relised he could give everyone what thay wanted,with out worring about someone being able to beat him,he could teach them to do,but not to understand why. In this way it would be much harder for someone to surpass him.(so he could still be the best.)

Now look whats happened, You now have so many MASTERS that only have peices of the puzel, and who can do,but not teach. now thay are forced to eather go in there own direction,or stop all together. in eather way as the generations go on each one looses a little of what makes it Bruces art.

I suggest that you watch as manny of Bruces students,see what thay all have in common,and conpair them. then if you like, find the one with the most peices and then eather you can try to put the puzel together for your self, Or find someone (like Howard)who can show you the way Bruce did it and why, Then maybe you can put the puzel together for your self.
No matter what you do ,Please remember J.K.D. was never finished.Perhaps with all the peices you can finnish it(for your self)But Bruce will never finish it.

Now back to the concepts.
J.K.D. is the adavanced, and Jun Fan is the basics,

Now after years of training, I relize the basics,are the foundation, and the adavanced are nothing more than the refining of those basics.

Have a good day. C.A.G.

[JKDJay]

I feel that all martial arts schools that fall under any category vary from school to school. what makes jeet kune do JKD in the eyes of a student at school A might be different than the eyes of a student at school B. It boils down to the teachings and personal development.

What makes Jeet Kune Do, Jeet Kune Do?

The discipline of the individual.

[RAYNYSC]

I take it that you feel Howard Willams has the most peices of the JKD puzzle,as other masters only have peices of the JKD puzzle,& can do it but can't teach it,unlike Howard who can show you the way Bruce did it & why....
Hey thats fine everyone is intitled to there own opinion....

Oh & by the way I have seen a number of original Bruce Lee students & none of them are as in depth to me
( Meaning as a whole/complete martial artist ) as Sifu/Guro Dan Inosanto when it come to braking down the concepts & principles of JKD Reguardless if you train JF/JKD or JKD Concepts no one comes close.... Not to mention any of the other martial art systems that Sifu/Guro Inosanto teaches.... :D
Anyhow the way I see it Dan's the man!....


A fighter will block where a master will attack

RAYNYSC

[curtis]

HI Ray
no argument here. Sifu Dan is one the best. (Fighter, and historian of the martial art's) if he is your sifu, you could do worse.
If you have checked out other Bruce Lee students. Then you can see, that the all have somethings similar. (I am not sure what to call it? Perhaps explosive quality to their movements?) Something on how they move is different. You can see it from one student to the next. But you do not normally see it in other people who were not trained by Bruce Lee.
Any who !
Even sifu Dan is feedup with the Jeet Kune Do organization. Perhaps Howard Williams and sifu Dan should get together. Since they are both trying to be true to Bruce. (Two different men, with two different lineages, but with one master. That would be interesting.)
Ray I never said that was only one way. I just said there were many, wrong ways. And many people who want you to follow them down the wrong path. To only one goal, money in their bank accounts. After all (back to the concepts.) the way of the intercepting fist/personal excellence, is individual to its user.
I do believe that jun fan is superior to Jeet Kune Do, as far as establishing a base to learn from , but once your base has been established...
Have good day Ray, looking forward to hear from you again.
Sincerely yours C.A.G.

[umgong]

After a bunch of years in various martial arts, I finally accepted the fact that Bruce Lee's methods was something I had to learn. (I'm muleheaded, will write about it someday)
So in the mid 1960's I tracked Bruce to his College St. kwoon. I had my own Kempo karate school in central California then with my partner, and I was going to college there, but I was willing to give it all up to move to L.A. to study with him then.
On one of my visits to L.A. in '65, I asked Bruce if that was a good idea...I had dropped by and was allowed to workout with his people (everyday) at College St., for several weeks (college break). so he had a chance to observe me.
I asked him if it was a good idea for me to give it all up to study JKD with him. I was surprised when he answered that I should stay in college and instead get rid of all the techniques that were of little use to me, and to simplify and make the techniques that I was good at better so that I could use them in all circumstances under "real" conditions.
After he said that, he seem to think about those words, then he said, "Yeah, that's it...that's the idea behind JKD."
So that's what I did, I got a couple of sparring partners (boxing, wrestling, judo,etc...we practiced full contact) and I began to discard which was not useful for me and kept the techniques that I could use well to dominate my opponents. Then I taught others and see if it was useful to those folks to make sure that I could pass on the concepts to others so that they could become good fighters and pass it on to others.
It's been 34 years now since I last saw him at the kwoon, but I owe him a lot.

Hope that helps.

[DancesWithDrunkChicks]

Thank you umgong for that simple, eloquent and personal description of your experience with Sigung Lee.

I've been reading the posts in this thread with mixed emotions - mostly confusion :confused: and dispair :rolleyes:

JKD is simple - its Michealangelo's lesson on how to scuplt a horse. You start with a block of stone. Then you take away all the parts that aren't a horse.

JKD is not the horse, but the studied act of taking away all the bits that arent the horse. We all end up with different horses, but JKD is the same for everybody.

;)

Cheers

[RAYNYSC]

Curtis,
I'll put it like this. The problem here is that often too many times people get caught up with just learning how to do the techniques....

Instead of trying to get an understanding of the underlying principles & theories behind the techniques that make the concepts of JKD work. ( Be it Jun Fan JKD or Jeet Kune Do Concepts )

Keep in mind that individual prefrence as well as attributes such as size,strength,endurance,speed etc,not to mention who you train with
( Meaning you train with good people & put in the time needed & you'll get good results no two ways about it....) play their parts as well. When it comes down to it.... :D

A fighter will block where a master will attack

RAYNYSC

[Nin-Po-Dragon]

As I heard it......Jeet means to stop and hit!

[curtis]

Ray I will not argue with those statements.
I wish you the very best in your training. And hope you find your "WAY".
A quote from Miyamoto Musashi.
Looking for the void as way. You will find the way as void.
Research this, and train diligently.
Good luck sincerely. C.A.G.

[Excession]

Does anyone know where to find online/e-book resources written by(preferably) or on Bruce Lee.