Emie 12 Jong and WCK??? [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

t_niehoff

07-06-2007, 03:43 PM

This poll was to simply see if others 'resonated' with the material or not. Sorry guys im an artist and musician, so im into "feelings" , that things give us.

What I find amusing is that people look to "forms" for "feelings". All martial art begins and ends with application, and a person doesn't know or uderstand any form except to the extent of their application (fighting) skill. You can't learn the proper "feeling" for hittting a forehand in tennis from a tennis form - that comes from actually hitting the ball. Without that grounding in application, forms are ink blots -- people see and "feel" what they want to see and feel.

When I found the branch of White Crane, and the exact form, I feel is the parent of Opera Troupe WCK, It struck me on numerous differant levels.

Of course it did. ;)

Opera Troupe WCK= any branch stemming from Wong Wah Boe, Leung Yee Tai, Dai Fa Min Kam, Yik Kam or Gu Lo chung, to clairify.

Can you prove with independently verifiable evidence that any of these people really existed? Can you prove that WCK was even on the Red Boats? Or, do you like to use stories and cherry-picked ink blots to support what you want to be WCK history?

Im still learning about the Emie system, but currently feel that the system that gave WCK its Snake boxing, is an internal " Boxing" system, not a platform for spiritual enlightenment, thats probably extinct currently. There may even be merrit and truth in the Snake boxing being from Emie, but that is a differant discusion all together. The Emie mountain range is home to a wide range of eclictic styles, as well as monastaries.

I think the White Crane used Harder Wei Jing Soft/Hard method and the Snake boxing used a Softer Nei JIng method. I think WCK ends up being a Wei Jing art, that is defined as Soft. As we minimize muscle use, maximise Tendon use and elastisty, and use localized Chi.

Wei Jing arts, use localized Chi. Hard Wei Jing arts use all Lik or muscle. Soft Wei JIng styles use only the most minimal muscles and mostly tendons to power the motions. Wei Jing Soft/Hard are in the middle.

Nei Jing arts sink the Chi to the Dan tien and open up the micro/macro orbits.

Wei Jing and Nei Jing each use a differant bowing method of the body as well.

B

It's nice that you are channeling Hendrik. But from your description above, you don't have much of a grasp of what hard/soft is about, at least in terms of martial art. It's a nice theory, though.

Ernie

07-06-2007, 04:39 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JNmD3AZt6U

Emie lives on ! and they got feeeeeeling !

:rolleyes:

Hendrik

07-06-2007, 05:24 PM

Until one knows what is Emei 12 Zhuang, how could one vote?

How could one vote for what is the gender of a baby male or female?

IMHO, no one needs to vote for the gender, just go for an ultrasonic. Yes or No it is clear.

IMHO

BTW, to be more specific, post the clip or the Small letter Zhuang and etc... see 12 zhuang comes with lots of different ways and indeed the reason of it was named 12 zhuang is 12 ways. and this is just a way of the 12th.

Not to mention, why don one post the clip from GM Fu himself, and how much depth one really could know about the art ?

as a general question, in the same way , could one learn SLT/SNT via just watching Youtube clip on demonstration clip?

peace

AmanuJRY

07-06-2007, 05:39 PM

There's no option for 'I really don't care/It doesn't affect my training'.:(

Hendrik

07-06-2007, 05:42 PM

is wai Jing and Nei Jing define that way in the past china?

IMHO, nope,

the confusion comes in when the communication on Nei and Wai Jing and lik is not clearly define for general public.

as for the feeling, IMHO, simply feel what is the effortless natual way to do bil jee in SLT/SNT for you comparing the top clip and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDTniv8PuW0&mode=related&search=

it will be great if you could post how GM Fu doing the first part of the Small letter Zhuang,

so we could compare between the Small letter of Emei 12 Zhuang (yes, there is a set call the Small similar to the Small in SLT/SNT )and the Iron wire above.

BTW, my ancestor Yik Kam is an actor playing female role so what is the feeling of him doing the hung gar way and playing a female role as proffesion?

click on

dance to see and feel how a dramatized female role act ... and see how is it different then the hung gar way.

http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1808590078/trailer

also

look at the following clip and see which is more likely Iron Wire or Emei?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiBMTLGfC3E

Peace

Ernie

07-06-2007, 05:46 PM

There's no option for 'I really don't care/It doesn't affect my training'.:(

Ahhh the I don't give a rats a$$ option ,,,must be in the fine print :eek:

Hendrik

07-06-2007, 11:14 PM

Drawing a pretty long bow IMO. It looks closer to breakdancing than WCK to me.

perhaps, someone who knows breakdance could use his breakdance skill to do SLT/SNT and let the body's language naturally surface instead of sifu said hold this here and that there....etc.

Try it.

Perhaps SLT is perform with very lite breakdance like method thus every joing and small details could be train and handle....

Brian, you are a musician, get some of your breakdance friends to test drive the SLT and SNT without telling them what needs to do what needs to clamp what need to fix but let thier body find its nature track.

if SLT is about nature then when the nature surface, what it is is infront our eyes. are we ready to see that and face that ?

similar to the fourseasons- winter-1,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c6CX8UMv4s&mode=related&search=

at the begining, the discrete music is the white crane, then the continous music come in -- the snake. then they both fuse in all kind of different ways. then, the snake even immitate or simulate the crane as one could use the continous music to imitate the discrete then at almost the end of it, thier fusion even go out of range and wild but it was always balance and solid without anything fix.

How many recognize the music of SLT?

left you something to chew on before I go seclusion...

Peace

byond1

07-07-2007, 01:03 AM

Hi everyone,

Dont put more into the post, than what is there. Some are really reaching. I just wanted to see how others would react to the material, nothing more nothing less. I personaly dont know if it is or isnt related at this point.

"What I find amusing is that people look to "forms" for "feelings"."-T

+++Who was looking at a form?? Is that what you thought we were watching :) I look at the mechanics myself.The action of whats occuring as well as the powering of the action is whats important in my opinion.

Thats a method of mobilizing the joints , and opening up the Lao Gong points, in my understanding.

"All martial art begins and ends with application," - T

+++Agreed. But application needs an engine for it to be applied, as well as structure/vehicle.
That material isnt really a martial art. Its actually a very advanced system for spiritual resurection, thats based on Taoist and Buddist methods, as was common in the Tang dynasty.
There is material that could be used for application , later on in the 12 Jong system - but thats neither here nor there, as you brought up application.

"Can you prove with independently verifiable evidence that any of these people really existed? " - T

+++Who cares?? That wasnt the point, I was clairfiying my statement and terminology, i would think you would be sensitive to needing a common language for communication to exist. I was avoiding ~other~ branchs of WCK , NOT related to the opera troupe, by there own traditions and omissions, being insulted, as Im not talking blanket across the board.

"It's nice that you are channeling Hendrik."- T

+++We need a common language. Define channeling please. My understanding Hendrik would have to be dead for me to channel him, and since he is very well alive, I wouldnt know what you mean.

"But from your description above, you don't have much of a grasp of what hard/soft is about, at least in terms of martial art."- T

+++Its so refreshing to see you still have an opinion like everyone else. Thanks for sharing:)

But from your description above, you don't have much of a grasp of what hard/soft is about, at least in terms of martial art.

byond1

07-07-2007, 01:16 AM

Hendrik -

Funny you bring up break dancing. A student of mine from years ago, was a break dancer. This was when i was in the H.K WCK system. He would do a "snake" style movement, that would...wave through out his whole body. Later when I learned started learning YKS and the Sai Ying Sau , I always remembered how he did that coiling with his body.

I dont have any other clips of Fu Sigung . There was that one from a year or so ago on google, but i dougt its still up.

Mr.Punch - Understood. I do think its relavant to know where one was, to better understand, why you are, where you are, and possibly where one needs to go.

It is unknown to be at present time if the Emie 12 jong, will fit the criterion for the above.

When you say:
""Sometimes looking at the origin of something doesn't help with its present day application, especially if that thing has evolved somewhat.""

Thats a very good point. Thats why this type of research is sooo difficult, and I do think WCK has evolved passed where it was even back in the early 1900s.

Hendrik

07-07-2007, 02:12 AM

""Sometimes looking at the origin of something doesn't help with its present day application, especially if that thing has evolved somewhat."" ----

For the Chinese ancient art, sure application changes and evolve. however, the body or the nature doesnt changes. and knowing the direction to the origin will know how much body mechanics it is likely to be there and how much has evolve including lost.

if the body mechanics has lost to a certain level, then the art is gone for the engine no longer is there or has become inadequate to drive.....

To bring back an art needs to bring back the 'body" or enginee. as for the ancient chinese Tee or body is a must to support the Yong or application.

if using breakdance way to practice SLT will yield better result for SLT training, then we know the other way or teaching is a limited and narrow way which is not accord to the nature of human body as the breakdance way.. That simple however do we willing to face the reality and staring into the eyes of the nature and let the nature speak?

Yes, emei 12 zhuang' snake physical moving is close to 'breakdance" in a general way and it is when all the Joins of the body "break" into small spiral and some up like a waving snake that makes SLT unique compare with the classical white crane, inch jing join force of 1680. via this way, that make WCK's stunt Jing possible to be implemented.

Dance and Music experience are closer and direct to nature then sifu says.

Beside WCK is the art of opera.

so turn to Dance and Music, let go let God, let the rythm of the nature takes over,
and one shall sense and feel the original face of Madam Wing Chun.

and that face could be seen only behind the eyes in the real of sensing....... there is where Chi Sau starts...

if you go this path,
soon very soon you will sing the windflowers song, take a warning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-k7bAAak8Q

enter at your own free will to the realm of Emei 12 zhuang.... the art of Samathabadra Boddhisatva of Emei of goldern top

http://www.buddhistdoor.com/OldWeb/bdoor/0108/sources/fourmtn2.htm

just some thoughts

t_niehoff

07-07-2007, 02:43 AM

"What I find amusing is that people look to "forms" for "feelings"."-T

+++Who was looking at a form?? Is that what you thought we were watching :) I look at the mechanics myself.The action of whats occuring as well as the powering of the action is whats important in my opinion.

What we were watching was essentially nonsense. If you want to see real body mechanics, you need to see them in action -- for real, in fighting.

Thats a method of mobilizing the joints , and opening up the Lao Gong points, in my understanding.

"Mobilizing joints", "opening points"? Oh, Lord!

"All martial art begins and ends with application," - T

+++Agreed. But application needs an engine for it to be applied, as well as structure/vehicle.

No, we don't agree and you don't even understand what I am saying about application. If you did, you wouldn't be showing this at all. Instead you'd be showing genuine application (the beginning and end). But, of course, this guys and all those theory guys, can't apply their martial art in fighting against decent fighters because they are lost in theory, lost in nonsense.

There is no "engine". When you throw a ball, and even when you try to teach someone to throw a ball, you don't talk about "the engine". It doesn't help to look at things that way -- because that is not the reality of what is going on.

That material isnt really a martial art. Its actually a very advanced system for spiritual resurection, thats based on Taoist and Buddist methods, as was common in the Tang dynasty.

In other words, nonsense.

There is material that could be used for application , later on in the 12 Jong system - but thats neither here nor there, as you brought up application.

Sure it "could". In fantasyland.

"Can you prove with independently verifiable evidence that any of these people really existed? " - T

+++Who cares?? That wasnt the point, I was clairfiying my statement and terminology, i would think you would be sensitive to needing a common language for communication to exist. I was avoiding ~other~ branchs of WCK , NOT related to the opera troupe, by there own traditions and omissions, being insulted, as Im not talking blanket across the board.

Then why bring this nonsense up?

"It's nice that you are channeling Hendrik."- T

+++We need a common language. Define channeling please. My understanding Hendrik would have to be dead for me to channel him, and since he is very well alive, I wouldnt know what you mean.

We don't need a common language for nonsense that doesn't exist.

"But from your description above, you don't have much of a grasp of what hard/soft is about, at least in terms of martial art."- T

+++Its so refreshing to see you still have an opinion like everyone else. Thanks for sharing:)

Just staing a fact.

But from your description above, you don't have much of a grasp of what hard/soft is about, at least in terms of martial art.

Oh, I know what it is -- and I'll be glad to show you or Hendrik anytime you want to see. You guys are lost in your "internal" Ermei, orbiting DNA, fantasy world. People who talk like this haven't a clue about martial art. If they did, they wouldn't talk like that.

Hendrik

07-07-2007, 02:57 AM

You guys are lost in your "internal" Ermei, orbiting DNA, fantasy world. People who talk like this haven't a clue about martial art. .

I love this. hahaha

who needs to have a clue of martial art according to Terence?

I rather fantasy ; free from karma of fighting; free from burning in the fire of trying to prove this or that to others; to wasting my live.

free and sing and listern to music and dance. isnt that a great fun energetic life ?

byond1

07-07-2007, 03:41 AM

Well again, I see lots of your opinion T, not a single fact. So again I guess your not so special, as we all have an opinion.

My opinion is on nonsence Mixed martial art americans who degrade everything they touch into rediculous sports, do everything half baked, and mistake that for reality. Cheers!~ People like you, I doubt have actually used their Sports training, in real life situations, hence your limited narrow opinion, which is just as bad and destructive as the dead letter zombie followers of tradition. Both degrade the art.Hence, I dont care what you are selling, as its nonsence.

Decent fighters???? BWahahahahah. Right. Like all the MMA guys that like to take an opponent to the ground, lay on them and watch the clock tick??

Heres a new song for you. Try "modern traditionalist". Keeping the original concepts, principles, structures, and Engine, while preasure testing it and applying it against modern conditions - and allowing this testing to evolve the applications, which of cource are Principle driven, or you loose the criterion for what is or isnt WCK. Following this formula, you actualy end up with something that looks like WCK, not like Boxing, as I see many MMA WCKers ending up with.

Try living and growing up in a ghetto, than you can talk to me about Real life use.

My belief on application has nothing to do with why i posted that clip. Many have never seen it, but have heard about it for a long time. I was sharing, and getting others feedback. Sorry you were suckered by my munsau.:)

You read into me being one of those "Theory guys" and lumped me in, with others, when you dont know me, nor anything about me. I suppose you could be channeling my thoughts and intent though.

Body mechanics do not have to be used in fighting for one to see them. Hence "Shadow Boxing". WHich is a method to train.....body mechanics.

And heres a fact for you, there is an engine (if your opinion is fact, than so is mine), for all bio mechanic motions . In fact, its one of the roots of motion.

B

chusauli

07-07-2007, 03:47 AM

Having seen the Emei 12 Zhuang system and the Yik Kam SLT WCK, I would say that whole movements of the set SLT derive from the Xiao Zi Zhuang (Siu Ji Jong) and there is a great similarity.

Of the clip shown of Emei 12 Zhuang, it is not representative of the relationship to the SLT set. If you haven't seen it, it is hard to imagine.

No opinion, just fact.

All of this arguing is just a waste of time.

Ultimatewingchun

07-07-2007, 04:00 AM

Brian,

I personally don't see any SLT in the clip you posted, and I voted as much. But some of the points you've tried to raise on this thread about internal boxing systems, feeling, opening joints, and so on are valid.

So I will agree with Robert about this much: arguing with Terence is a complete waste of your valuable time.

He loves to argue just for the sake of arguing; has no understanding about anything not quantifiable by myopic and outdated western scientific standards of materiality, ie. - a B.F. Skinner-like worldview wherein conditioned responses based upon results first - and causes later are the END-ALL-AND-BE-ALL (ie.- if it's not seen under my slanted microscope it doesn't exist); and in addition, Terence uses one standard of values and judgments for himself and those he's close to (or channels, ie.- see Matt Thornton's articles) - while he (Terence) has another more stringent standard for everybody else.

And he's never wrong. (That is, until he does a 180 and changes his mind completely, ie.- see his posts from years ago when he argued against things like sparring)...

But somehow he's just never wrong about anything.

Even though he's basically clueless about so many things. :eek:

Try the IGNORE list.

And then you can argue with some other more reasonable people. :p ;)

t_niehoff

07-07-2007, 05:02 AM

Well again, I see lots of your opinion T, not a single fact. So again I guess your not so special, as we all have an opinion.

Facts? You want facts? I gave you facts. That stuff is nonsense. It's fantasy stuff. You want proof? Show me anyone --anyone -- who can make it that stuff work against someone hell bent on kncking the stuffing out of them who has decent attributes. These guys apparently love to make vids of themselves -- so where are the vids of them actually using these marvelous "machanics"? They can't make it work. Because it is fantasy stuff.

You look at these things as evidence, and try to use it to figure out how WCK developed. But you'll never find those answers looking at fantasy.

My opinion is on nonsence Mixed martial art americans who degrade everything they touch into rediculous sports, do everything half baked, and mistake that for reality. Cheers!~ People like you, I doubt have actually used their Sports training, in real life situations, hence your limited narrow opinion, which is just as bad and destructive as the dead letter zombie followers of tradition. Both degrade the art.Hence, I dont care what you are selling, as its nonsence.

It's really easy to show that a martial art, whether MMA or Ermei 12 Jong or whatever, is genuine or fantasy. You may not like what you see MMAists do, but at least they are *doing* it. Why don't we ever see people with your marvelous mechanics actually using them? For the simple reason that they don't work -- they are fantasy.

Decent fighters???? BWahahahahah. Right. Like all the MMA guys that like to take an opponent to the ground, lay on them and watch the clock tick??

You can always show me your TMA guys who can do better. ;)

Heres a new song for you. Try "modern traditionalist". Keeping the original concepts, principles, structures, and Engine, while preasure testing it and applying it against modern conditions - and allowing this testing to evolve the applications, which of cource are Principle driven, or you loose the criterion for what is or isnt WCK. Following this formula, you actualy end up with something that looks like WCK, not like Boxing, as I see many MMA WCKers ending up with.

Great, let's see it. Or is this just more fantasy?

Try living and growing up in a ghetto, than you can talk to me about Real life use.

ROFLOL! You are too much. Next, you'll be telling me about how you worked a door! LOL!

My belief on application has nothing to do with why i posted that clip. Many have never seen it, but have heard about it for a long time. I was sharing, and getting others feedback. Sorry you were suckered by my munsau.:)

I'm not the one being suckered.

You read into me being one of those "Theory guys" and lumped me in, with others, when you dont know me, nor anything about me. I suppose you could be channeling my thoughts and intent though.

You were the one talking about "engines", internal arts, opening points, using chi to open the dan tien, etc., right? And you wonder why I lumped you in with the theory boys? LOL!

All that stuff does is constipate you. You may not like "sport" guys, but people in sports -- because they actually do them, actually compete -- need their stuff to really work. Not in theory, not in pretend fighting, but actually work under realistic conditions. There is a very good reason sport people don't talk like this, don't look at the world like this, etc. Not even good chinese athletes use this sort of nonsense to guide them. Because it is not helpful, it is not productive. Just the opposite. It inhibits growth and development. And if you look around, you won't find anyone who follows that line of "thinking" who has developed decent skills.

Body mechanics do not have to be used in fighting for one to see them. Hence "Shadow Boxing". WHich is a method to train.....body mechanics.

Once again -- wrong. Shadow boxing is not application. Fighting/sparring is application. No fighting/sparring, no application. Shadow boxing involves practicing body mechanics developed in application - fighting/sparring.

And heres a fact for you, there is an engine (if your opinion is fact, than so is mine), for all bio mechanic motions . In fact, its one of the roots of motion.

You still don't get it because you are lost in theory. The body is the only "engine". The body drives us. There are different ways of using our body to optimally accomplish certain tasks. Period. You don't need "performance art" to figure those out. If you are given the task, you will naturally find the optimal way to do it. But, this requires, you actually do the task.

byond1

07-07-2007, 05:20 AM

Hi Robert and Vic,

Great advice!!~ I think I will follow it!

And the fact is that the entire set must be seen and used as the comparison. That was just to give others a taste of something rare, they have heard about for a long time but not experianced.

And the WCK used as a referance for comparisons must also be defined, as some of the older Snake and Crane methods, have gradualy been evolved out of the system, so for example I understand why many dont see the immediate connections to White crane, using for example H.K WCK.

There are many...striking similarities, and im not simply refering to physical posing or external stuctures in the Emi 12 Jong to WCK.
But I always invisioned the snake art, that was used in WCK creation, to be more...."boxing" based.

At this point, i feel its worth investigating and im simply keeping an open mind. But im starting at first defining the Crane material and connection, than taking the material thats left and comparing that with the Emie 12 jong.
As my grandmothers kuen kuit states "Start with what you know"

B

t_niehoff

07-07-2007, 05:21 AM

look at the following clip and see which is more likely Iron Wire or Emei?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiBMTLGfC3E

What exactly are we supoposed to see watching a 96 year old man performing a linked set? That the quality of his movement in a form was more "like" the movement in the Ermei form (another old guy) than the Hung Ga form? So what?

Here is what you don't seem to understand, Hendrik -- a person won't be able to move like they do in those forms in fighting. Those forms aren't really training anything functional in terms of mechanics. A better question would be to ask: what do all three forms have in common? Answer: they don't reflect the reality of how a person will *need* to move in a fight to be successful (at least against anyone who is not a scrub).

How will a person need to move? Look at any genuine fight - bar, street, ring, mat, gym, it doesn't matter. The answer is right before your eyes. But to see, you've got to take the blinders of tradition off.

This is why I have repeatedly said -- show me anyone who can move like that and fight successfully. You can't do it. Yet you continue to believe. Belief in spite of evidence is the domain of religion.

t_niehoff

07-07-2007, 05:45 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDTniv8PuW0&mode=related&search=

it will be great if you could post how GM Fu doing the first part of the Small letter Zhuang,

so we could compare between the Small letter of Emei 12 Zhuang (yes, there is a set call the Small similar to the Small in SLT/SNT )and the Iron wire above.

BTW, my ancestor Yik Kam is an actor playing female role so what is the feeling of him doing the hung gar way and playing a female role as proffesion?

Just for laughs, I had a look at the Iron Wire form above (that's on Youtube), and then I did a search for Hung Ga fighting and only found these two clips that show hung ga people "really" (LOL!) sparring (the rest werre putting on demos of pretend fighting):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-3zssGEl88

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BY7VLcO5Cs

So where is the "iron wire" mechanics?

Now before you say that they were just kickboxing, and they were poor representatives of hung ga, show me some good representatives -- some people who can really fight/spar with those mechanics.

t_niehoff

07-07-2007, 05:53 AM

And, Hendrik, I know you beleive yi quan is "internal" and has similarlity to WCK -- here's an interesting clip. The "best" part is in the middle when they spar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-ZBR51Tewg&NR=1

You can see the "internal" body mechanics coming out. ;)

Hendrik

07-07-2007, 07:25 AM

And the fact is that the entire set must be seen and used as the comparison.
And the WCK used as a referance for comparisons must also be defined,-------

there are 12 sets or 12 ways. Siu Tze Zhong (the small way -- with the concept of ten thousand threat source from small/minute...) is one of the set within the 12.

Get the clip of that set and post the first half of it. and also get the clip of classical wcwc bafen from china. see what will it becomes when they fuse. not to mention the kuen kuit I got which Robert also has seen did has the terminology and stanza from both of these above.

it is very not likely that how come the terminology such as Zhao Yang which was an older classical wcwc term and the stanza of emei is collect naively within one kuen kuit of SLT due to any other reasons if the person who create this kuit doesnt know both.

IMHO

There are three ways of practicing SLT, in my understanding.

1, follow sifu said, follow the instruction the principle.. clamp this fix that..ect but just practice and practice. repeat and repeat. the SLT.

2, understand the different between lik, Jing, Nei Jing and Wai Jing, understand the breathing and applied those while practicing the SLT.

3, activate the inner flow, sink qi to dan dien, activate the inner reasonance, and using the inner reasonance as the core to induce one's cultivation to closer and closer to the nature.

The 1, and 2 doesnt need or limited need in the understanding or handling of Dan Dien, Zhen Qi . mai....etc. as for the #3, the first 5 stanza of the SLT kuen kuit by Miu Shun and passed down by Yik Kam presenting the ticket to enter this realm.

This is even before the "break dance" without this ticket, even one "break dance" it is not a "break dance " drive by the 8 special medirians.

I suggest a true comparison of the art could be done only after one reaches the begining threshold of #3. otherwise, it is to shallow for any conclusion. IMHO

how long one will be able to grasp the entry of the #3 practice? thus I have heard. one week with the technology. however it is not worthed if it is not about Humanity.

There are many...striking similarities, and im not simply refering to physical posing or external stuctures in the Emi 12 Jong to WCK. ------

In some posts of the 12 zhuang, one could find the trace of WCK application. IMHO.. the stick...etc.

But I always invisioned the snake art, that was used in WCK creation, to be more...."boxing" based. -------

Emei 12 zhuang is as Boxing as Shao Lin if not more lethal.

however, Emei purposely cover up this face of the art.

IMHO, This is because it is an energy manipulative technology. and enery technology is energy manipulative. it is better to present the art as a healing cultivation then destructive weapon.

as it said, the greater the power the greater the responsibility. He who takes pleasure of hurting others will end up being hurt. There is nothing great to boast about how one could hurt others. That is also the reason I believe why Miu Shu and Yim Yee keep it real low key.

in addition, all those real Shao Lin Monk such as Da Mo, or Emei Monk such as the White Cloud who created the Emei 12 zhuang, are beings of compassionate and loving kindness. Sifu Robert here knows very very well the teaching of Zen patriach Ven Hsuan Hua who is the dharma descendent of the Zen patriach Hsu Yun, he too knows there is no way high attainment Monks will teach one to hurt others. I myself is a student of Ven Hsuan Hua who teaches me to help even an ant to preserve its lives, as in my sifu's own word, " I am no different then an ant".

With great power comes great responsibility that is also IMHO why even within the Cho family the certain part of the Yik Kam teaching is kept very private even among the family.

At this point, i feel its worth investigating and im simply keeping an open mind. But im starting at first defining the Crane material and connection, than taking the material thats left and comparing that with the Emie 12 jong. ------

once you get into Emie 12 jong, and once you saw the SLT Kuen Kuit transmitted by Yik Kam, you will not be able to turn back even if the whole world disagree with you. That I give you a pre-warning. however, I must said, if your (anyone not only Brian ) WCK is not intended for humanity then dont walk this path. for the more power you gain the more harm it will cause you.... IMHO

or perhaps, you need to ask, is revealing the truth bring a better life for others or bring the technology to the world will create more destruction. that IMHO is also the responsibility of the researcher. It is certainly feeling good to crack the "da vinci" code however how many of us have thought about the consequence and the impact? I too was young one time and naive about human nature.

It is my believe that
It is better to practice loving kindness and knowing nothing or bad kung fu then deal with energy but thinking hurting others is something great to show off.

for before one could handle oneself, the snake in the energy will turn into a poison snake which bite oneself.

Finally, Terence has a good point refering what I am presenting as fantasy.
Sure, dont we all are fantasying?

Someday, when we close our eyes and never open it anymore. isnt it all what we did this life become a big fantasy dream? That including Terence Fighting Fighting fantasy, my wck is the oldest fantasy, I am the gate holder fantasy, I know it all fantasy.... I am the best fighter fantasy, I am the tough guy fantasy....ect fantasy.

For me,
I rather to folllow the Buddhist ancestors of the past. manifest a humanistic fantasy. at least that way I know I have a sweat dream which I could release with ease just before I close my eyes and never open it again.

everyone choose thier own karma or fantasy. and I decide to follow the humanistic fantasy.

Just some thoughts.

anerlich

07-07-2007, 07:45 AM

To paraphrase Thomas Jefferson, "the only possible defence against an unintelligible statement is ridicule".

if your (anyone not only Brian ) WCK is not intended for humanity then dont walk this path.

Who else would it be intended for? Martians? The Neutrinos from Dimension X?

perhaps, someone who knows breakdance could use his breakdance skill to do SLT/SNT and let the body's language naturally surface instead of sifu said hold this here and that there....etc.

Some Russian MA drills closely resemble breakdancing. And the clip looks more like both them and breakdancing than it does WC. There may be some similarities as some level, but at some level WC is like karate, iron wire, skateboarding and walking too.

I was foolish not to see the "don't give a rat's a$$" option myself. Forgive me.

t_niehoff

07-07-2007, 04:43 PM

And the fact is that the entire set must be seen and used as the comparison.
And the WCK used as a referance for comparisons must also be defined,-------

You don't seem to grasp that comparing "forms" is not comparing the martial arts. The forms are merely representations of things, not the things themselves. You can't see WCK in a form. WCK is not in the SNT/SLT. WCK exists only in application. So you can only see it in application.

there are 12 sets or 12 ways. Siu Tze Zhong (the small way -- with the concept of ten thousand threat source from small/minute...) is one of the set within the 12.

Get the clip of that set and post the first half of it. and also get the clip of classical wcwc bafen from china. see what will it becomes when they fuse. not to mention the kuen kuit I got which Robert also has seen did has the terminology and stanza from both of these above.

it is very not likely that how come the terminology such as Zhao Yang which was an older classical wcwc term and the stanza of emei is collect naively within one kuen kuit of SLT due to any other reasons if the person who create this kuit doesnt know both.

There is lots of overlap between theory, kuit, terminology is many TCMA methods. BFD. That proves nothing. Most of these things are generic, and spread all around. Kuen yao sum faat (fist comes from the heart) is a WCK kuit and is in xing yi -- and in many arts. You see connections you want to see.

IMHO

There are three ways of practicing SLT, in my understanding.

Yes, and *your* understanding is limited by your level of development -- how well you can really do (use ) WCK in fighting. And this is the problem: people who can't do it want to tell us how we should do it, what it really means, etc. If you believe your understanding is correct, then show that you can really make it work the way you say it works. I'll listen to anyone - anyone - who can do what they say (really do it in fighting), even if I disagree with them. I can't argue with results.

1, follow sifu said, follow the instruction the principle.. clamp this fix that..ect but just practice and practice. repeat and repeat. the SLT.

2, understand the different between lik, Jing, Nei Jing and Wai Jing, understand the breathing and applied those while practicing the SLT.

3, activate the inner flow, sink qi to dan dien, activate the inner reasonance, and using the inner reasonance as the core to induce one's cultivation to closer and closer to the nature.

The 1, and 2 doesnt need or limited need in the understanding or handling of Dan Dien, Zhen Qi . mai....etc. as for the #3, the first 5 stanza of the SLT kuen kuit by Miu Shun and passed down by Yik Kam presenting the ticket to enter this realm.

This is even before the "break dance" without this ticket, even one "break dance" it is not a "break dance " drive by the 8 special medirians.

Or, you could just drop some LSD and take a short cut to fantasyland. ;)

I suggest a true comparison of the art could be done only after one reaches the begining threshold of #3. otherwise, it is to shallow for any conclusion. IMHO

The only "true comparison" of the art takes place in fighting. That's the only place you see the results of your training. As I told you, I'll be in LA next June -- why don'tyou come show me how this marvelous training works?

There are many...striking similarities, and im not simply refering to physical posing or external stuctures in the Emi 12 Jong to WCK. ------

In some posts of the 12 zhuang, one could find the trace of WCK application. IMHO.. the stick...etc.

But I always invisioned the snake art, that was used in WCK creation, to be more...."boxing" based. -------

Emei 12 zhuang is as Boxing as Shao Lin if not more lethal.

however, Emei purposely cover up this face of the art.

IMHO, This is because it is an energy manipulative technology. and enery technology is energy manipulative. it is better to present the art as a healing cultivation then destructive weapon.

as it said, the greater the power the greater the responsibility. He who takes pleasure of hurting others will end up being hurt. There is nothing great to boast about how one could hurt others. That is also the reason I believe why Miu Shu and Yim Yee keep it real low key.

in addition, all those real Shao Lin Monk such as Da Mo, or Emei Monk such as the White Cloud who created the Emei 12 zhuang, are beings of compassionate and loving kindness. Sifu Robert here knows very very well the teaching of Zen patriach Ven Hsuan Hua who is the dharma descendent of the Zen patriach Hsu Yun, he too knows there is no way high attainment Monks will teach one to hurt others. I myself is a student of Ven Hsuan Hua who teaches me to help even an ant to preserve its lives, as in my sifu's own word, " I am no different then an ant".

With great power comes great responsibility that is also IMHO why even within the Cho family the certain part of the Yik Kam teaching is kept very private even among the family.

At this point, i feel its worth investigating and im simply keeping an open mind. But im starting at first defining the Crane material and connection, than taking the material thats left and comparing that with the Emie 12 jong. ------

once you get into Emie 12 jong, and once you saw the SLT Kuen Kuit transmitted by Yik Kam, you will not be able to turn back even if the whole world disagree with you. That I give you a pre-warning. however, I must said, if your (anyone not only Brian ) WCK is not intended for humanity then dont walk this path. for the more power you gain the more harm it will cause you.... IMHO

or perhaps, you need to ask, is revealing the truth bring a better life for others or bring the technology to the world will create more destruction. that IMHO is also the responsibility of the researcher. It is certainly feeling good to crack the "da vinci" code however how many of us have thought about the consequence and the impact? I too was young one time and naive about human nature.

It is my believe that
It is better to practice loving kindness and knowing nothing or bad kung fu then deal with energy but thinking hurting others is something great to show off.

for before one could handle oneself, the snake in the energy will turn into a poison snake which bite oneself.

This is the common claim of TCMAs -- the "secret book" view of martial art: I have the secret book with the secret info, the real stuff that others lack, the stuf that will make you lethal, andmake your WCK work . . . blah, blah, blah. And they always wrap it up to go in a tortilla of pseudo-spirituality.

Finally, Terence has a good point refering what I am presenting as fantasy.
Sure, dont we all are fantasying?

Someday, when we close our eyes and never open it anymore. isnt it all what we did this life become a big fantasy dream? That including Terence Fighting Fighting fantasy, my wck is the oldest fantasy, I am the gate holder fantasy, I know it all fantasy.... I am the best fighter fantasy, I am the tough guy fantasy....ect fantasy.

No, Hendrik, some of us are not concerned with fantasy and are not practicing a fantasy. I have no delusions as to what I am doing, or what I can do, or what my level is. I know. I know by my results. I don't believe that I am the best fighter or a tough guy. But I am someone who practices WCK as a martial art. You don't.

For me,
I rather to folllow the Buddhist ancestors of the past. manifest a humanistic fantasy. at least that way I know I have a sweat dream which I could release with ease just before I close my eyes and never open it again.

everyone choose thier own karma or fantasy. and I decide to follow the humanistic fantasy.

Just some thoughts.

If you want to follow buddhism, that's fine. But you don't need martial art to do that. And, since you brought up the subject of "humanistic" -- that too is a matter of do you walk the talk? It's easy to talk about being humanistic, about being spiritual, etc. But my experience is most people who talk about these things don't *do* squat. They don't put they talk into practice. If you want to be humanistic and want to grow spiritually, it takes work, hard, painful work. Instead of doing your SLT to develop your "humanity" or "spiritual self" try volunteering at an AIDS hospice or homeless shelter. That is the difference between the talkers and the doers.

YungChun

07-07-2007, 05:04 PM

t_niehoff

07-07-2007, 05:41 PM

Terence...

You can certainly compare arts at the concept level... The theory level, the training model level, the form level, the application level, the duel fight level.. Or any other way one wishes.. A careful and thorough study of any art by any scientist would involve any and all facets of the *art* which DOES include all of the above..

The *existance* of forms in an art is sufficient to merit a study and comparison of them as a "part" of the art. If one is to take forms as the 'text books' of an art then one could argue that the art comes from these text books...

It's like genotype vs. the phenotype... One is not more 'real' than the other, they are both part of the whole, life process...

The *actual* concepts, theory, training, etc. are only visable by, though, and in application. While I agree (to some extent) that forms are "texts", a person can't understand the text -- what the text "means" - except through application. You see, this is precisely the problem that Hendrik, Brian, etc. don't understand -- they may beleive they know what the concepts are, the theory is, what the training does, etc. but absent being able to really do it, that is all just theory, belief (one they bring with them into their inquiry). So they are discussing things they really don't understand (since if you can't do it, you don't really know it or understand it), comparing them to things they don't understand, and drawing conclusions from that. All they are doing is looking at things from a purely theoretical perspective and mainly a false perspective, then using that to support what they already want to be the case.

YungChun

07-07-2007, 05:55 PM

The *actual* concepts, theory, training, etc. are only visable by, though, and in application. While I agree (to some extent) that forms are "texts", a person can't understand the text -- what the text "means" - except through application. You see, this is precisely the problem that Hendrik, Brian, etc. don't understand -- they may beleive they know what the concepts are, the theory is, what the training does, etc. but absent being able to really do it, that is all just theory, belief (one they bring with them into their inquiry). So they are discussing things they really don't understand (since if you can't do it, you don't really know it or understand it), comparing them to things they don't understand, and drawing conclusions from that. All they are doing is looking at things from a purely theoretical perspective and mainly a false perspective, then using that to support what they already want to be the case.

But the art is defined by it's concepts.. If I ask the teacher to teach me WCK what will he do, KO me? No, it will be about the art in theory, then how to manifest that theory and then how to apply it..

The 'art' is a thing...more an idea or idea set..

This idea set is then applied... Does the art <idea set> only exist when the idea set it is applied? Not logical IMO, since the idea set gives rise to the action...

It is the art which gives rise to the art in application, where art is an idea set...

Idea sets are not objective they are quantifiable and thus measurable, free of error in their expression, since they are codified...

Expression of the idea set by a human must by definition be subject to human error and human limitations, in both expression and interpretation, and therefore by definition must be inconsistent and subjective. This unlike the idea set which can always be clear, consistent, measurable and objective..

And no one need to play the violin or the cello to compare them…nor could a complete comparison of the two be limited to play …

Hendrik

07-07-2007, 06:11 PM

But you don't need martial art to do that. ------

an art is an art it is not up to others to judge who need what art.

And, since you brought up the subject of "humanistic" -- that too is a matter of do you walk the talk? -------

sure. Those who walk walk those who talks only talks. action shows it all.

It's easy to talk about being humanistic, about being spiritual, etc. ----

at least people talk about it and at least when they talk about it they spend thier time talk about it instead of go robbing or hurting others.

some even they do minimun that is better then not talk about it at all.

But my experience is most people who talk about these things don't *do* squat. They don't put they talk into practice. -------

You expereince could be right. and examine who you are grouping with? different group of people do different stuffs. but that is not every group of people.

If you want to be humanistic and want to grow spiritually, it takes work, hard, painful work. -----

Nope, it doesnt to take work or hard painfull work. it has to take the easiest work to begin with. Love oneself. if one cant love oneself and always in the judgmental and see everything is not right mode. then, no work in this world lead to humanistic and spiritual.

So, ask yourself do you know how to love yourself? that simple. it begin there.

Instead of doing your SLT to develop your "humanity" or "spiritual self" try volunteering at an AIDS hospice or homeless shelter. That is the difference between the talkers and the doers.------

again, SLT is an art. SLT is a tool. humanistic or spiritual is about oneself. The more one knows different arts and the more one knows the depth and vast and lively of the art the more one could use thier art to aid humanistic and the effortless one could flow through life with ease.

What good is to volunteering this or that if one doesnt know the above?
one can do all the volunteering work if one still dont know how to love oneself, one will never know how to love others.

and being seeing everything is wrong is a sign of not loving oneself. Do you have a gasp of that? until then how can one even know what is humanistic?

as it is said, love God, love yourself, and love your neigbour. there is a truth there about living.

Keep anti-qing with all the sefl-rigtheous and self-righteous vengence make one not loving oneself. how is those type of life could work? those are simply a miseratble live one live in. that is reality.

and perhaps, one needs to ask oneself why do one train in SLT? what it is contribute to oneself and one's society. what is the value of the art?

and does one even have a balance view to live one's life? if not then what good is SLT? similar to having a gun living in unsettle world ? similar to a music smooth one in the busy working environment?.. that everyone has to answer for oneself.

BTW, what is the purpose of your post? not giving approval to all others because you feel lack of control for yourself? do you know?

why do you do what you do in this forum? do you know? Until you know that how could you know about others if you dont know what is your mind set which is running your life? not to mention art.

Peace

Mr Punch

07-07-2007, 07:33 PM

Just for laughs... blah blah blahSummer has come... is that the sound of the crickets chirping? No? Crickets - d!ckheads - crickets - d!ckheads... say em quick enough and they sound similar...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-3zssGEl88Posting vids there T...? Is that one you?! Which one are you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BY7VLcO5CsFinally! This must be a video of yourself! :rolleyes:

OK, so let's say that some people use these methods to do what they call "opening points", loosening themselves up, whatever...

If nothing else, relaxation is important for fighting, no?
If nothing else, stretching is important for fighting, no?

(in terms of releasing energy through your punches, in terms of dropping your weight, basing out, tiring your opp out in groundfighting, in terms of purely taking damage...)

So, there are two reasons why this Emei stuff may be useful.

Well, I hear you whinge, why is it that thousands of MMAers can reach the pinnacle of their careers without using Emei mechanics for stretching out their joints (let's stick with the stretching example for simplicity)? A few years ago, no-one had heard of Pavel, and then his new stretching mechanics (though as we all know there's nothing new under the sun) took over a lot of the exercise/fight world, and now, well, a lot of people in MMA don't use any of Pavel's advice, and a few swear by it...

The joy of choice! Empirically, there are too many variables to finally say whether Pavel is breeding fighters. Empirically, there are far too few Emei practitioners in the world to make any judgment.

And then let's say, you can't fight. Let's say, you've got one two many oestrogen and not enough testosterone, I dunno, but whatever, you can't fight literally to save your life... and so you take up the deadly WC (I can certainly believe it with mouthboxing webfu hypocrites like you T), so then WC's pansy chainpunches are gonna seem like a good idea, right? So, then let's say you become THE badass: you've got the belief in what you do...

well there's another reason how Emei (or anything else) would help your fighting: Fedor uses visualization, Goodrich uses visualization, weightlifters use visualization, Silva, Sanchez, Rampage et al are Christians FFS - you don't get much more creative visualization than that! - Hell, most of these people use visualization; so there's another good reason for Emei.

On top of all that T, you do Chu sau lei don't you? Isn't there a whole thread burbling on about your precious ****ing structure that nobody else has? You say structure, Hendrik says engine... you say tomato, I say you're a hypocritical
gobsh!te...!

But wait, you've got proof! There's Alan Orr and his team - they're doing a great job (albeit in 'NHB' where head shots don't seem to be allowed - bit like an opera contest without fat blokes) and we all take it on trust that it's something to do with the testimonialed-up-the-yazoo structure that we can't see... so how many of these Emei people have you tested out then, T? Or are you just judging it by vid?

If nothing else, cricket, Robert Chu himself (so isn't he your sifu or sigung or something?) has just come on and said they're linked, so please, just STFU and leave the coversation to those who may have something constructive to say.

BTW, whoever posted that vid of the 96 yr-old geezer doing that bit on the dummy, that was marvelous! I hope I'm half as spry as he is at that age. It's good to see some people are keeping up with tradition, regardless of how useful it may or may not be in a fight (at 96 or any age!).

BTW2, Hendrik, I like your posts, even if I don't agree with a lot of it, but PLEASE stop posting irrelevant links to shockingly bad music. Thank you.

Please sprinkle the above post with liberal :rolleyes::p:D:eek: etc... but mostly :D and :rolleyes:

Hendrik

07-07-2007, 07:49 PM

BTW, whoever posted that vid of the 96 yr-old geezer doing that bit on the dummy, that was marvelous! I hope I'm half as spry as he is at that age. It's good to see some people are keeping up with tradition, regardless of how useful it may or may not be in a fight (at 96 or any age!). -----

This clip is valueable because it serve as data point on what WCK is like in the 1930's.

We need to keep this type of records for every family or lineage. These are treasure for the art of WCK.

BTW2, Hendrik, I like your posts, even if I don't agree with a lot of it, but PLEASE stop posting irrelevant links to shockingly bad music. Thank you. ------

You are welcome.

1, I dont always right since similar with you I am just a human.

2, my agenda is simple, similar to a lots of others who realized the art of WCK is much vast, deep, and colorfull or multi-dimentional (the analogy is comparing the 70's martial art movies and today's Jacky chan advanture movie see how broad even hong kong movie has become)

So we need to boost all of us WCners to a higher Vibration, we cant live in the 70's narrow screeen hong kong movie life anymore.

There are mental, breathing, body, ..... all of those we need to face in today's society and there are lost tract of WCK due to the war/chaos time between 1890 to 1980 of china. We need to simply face them accept them and iron things out.

3, IMHO, it is better to promote WCK as a positive art similar to music then to promote what is could do to harm others. for we dont live in fight and flight everyday and dont want to because those type of living is a sickness and very likely cause major health issues.

people doesnt have to agree with me, however take a look at spring time, is it positive or is it about kill kill bang bang and taking pride of how to harm others? Saying that I didnt say WCK cant be used similar to we dont promote neuclear bomb but we do have it if it is needed. But ofcause we rather never use it.

Finally,

Terence is not a problem. it is the subsconcious program within Terence mind which is running his soul and he doesnt aware of is the problem. so Terence is similar to a computer, some bug or virus is running wild in there and the computer dont know. this type of problem if spread will cause imbalance in others life. and have a big possibility that it is causing the computer wearing out even faster then everyone knows. as the ancient will said, imbalance in the lower 3 chakra energy which usually could cause physical issue if prolong.

Let's pray for him for his healing instead of abandon him or lower our energy vibration to his level to argue with him. IMHO

Peace

Hendrik

07-07-2007, 08:02 PM

WCner's mission :D

Sun Shine--- Zhao yang.....

http://www.fandango.com/videos_1_763592/v+++328646

t_niehoff

07-07-2007, 09:58 PM

But the art is defined by it's concepts.. If I ask the teacher to teach me WCK what will he do, KO me? No, it will be about the art in theory, then how to manifest that theory and then how to apply it..

No, this is what theorists like to believe -- and they like to believe it because they can then rationalize that the "know" a martial art (like WCK), because they "know the concepts", even though they can't perform (fight) particularly well. Martial art begins with skills, and is "defined" (if you want to look at it that way) by skills, not by "concepts".

The 'art' is a thing...more an idea or idea set..

This idea set is then applied... Does the art <idea set> only exist when the idea set it is applied? Not logical IMO, since the idea set gives rise to the action...

It is the art which gives rise to the art in application, where art is an idea set...

Idea sets are not objective they are quantifiable and thus measurable, free of error in their expression, since they are codified...

Expression of the idea set by a human must by definition be subject to human error and human limitations, in both expression and interpretation, and therefore by definition must be inconsistent and subjective. This unlike the idea set which can always be clear, consistent, measurable and objective..

And no one need to play the violin or the cello to compare them…nor could a complete comparison of the two be limited to play …

All of the above is nonsense. Theorists look at everything ass-backward. WCK is like any other physical activity, like basketball, like tennis, like boxing, like wrestling, etc. These things are not based on "ideas" or "concepts", there is no "idea set", etc. You begin with skills, physical skills - using your body to do specific things, to accomplish specific tasks. Concepts can in some cases help us in applying our skills, in that they are essentially temporary substitutes for experience.

An addendum:

After some thought, I see your point. For *you*, and people like Hendrik, WCK is "a set of ideas" -- it's a belief structure. For me, however, it is a learned skill. You see apples and I see oranges. Not so surprising, then, that we don't agree on just about anything. :)

t_niehoff

07-07-2007, 10:47 PM

OK, so let's say that some people use these methods to do what they call "opening points", loosening themselves up, whatever...

If nothing else, relaxation is important for fighting, no?
If nothing else, stretching is important for fighting, no?

You're missing the point. People relax and stretch in yoga class -- and this has nothing to do with developing fighting skills.

(in terms of releasing energy through your punches, in terms of dropping your weight, basing out, tiring your opp out in groundfighting, in terms of purely taking damage...)

So, there are two reasons why this Emei stuff may be useful.

Riding a bike "may be useful" too. ;)

People develop skills by doing those skills. You develop fighting skills by doing them. Yoga or Ermei may help you relax, it may help you stretch, it may lower your blood pressure, but they won't develop martial art (fighting) skills.

Well, I hear you whinge, why is it that thousands of MMAers can reach the pinnacle of their careers without using Emei mechanics for stretching out their joints (let's stick with the stretching example for simplicity)? A few years ago, no-one had heard of Pavel, and then his new stretching mechanics (though as we all know there's nothing new under the sun) took over a lot of the exercise/fight world, and now, well, a lot of people in MMA don't use any of Pavel's advice, and a few swear by it...

The joy of choice! Empirically, there are too many variables to finally say whether Pavel is breeding fighters. Empirically, there are far too few Emei practitioners in the world to make any judgment.

Are there *any* Ermei fighters in the world?

And then let's say, you can't fight. Let's say, you've got one two many oestrogen and not enough testosterone, I dunno, but whatever, you can't fight literally to save your life... and so you take up the deadly WC (I can certainly believe it with mouthboxing webfu hypocrites like you T), so then WC's pansy chainpunches are gonna seem like a good idea, right? So, then let's say you become THE badass: you've got the belief in what you do...

well there's another reason how Emei (or anything else) would help your fighting: Fedor uses visualization, Goodrich uses visualization, weightlifters use visualization, Silva, Sanchez, Rampage et al are Christians FFS - you don't get much more creative visualization than that! - Hell, most of these people use visualization; so there's another good reason for Emei.

What kind of nonsense is this? Fighters, who train like fighters and then use visualization as part of what they do is not the same as people who don't fight and who don't train like fighters doing visualization. It's apples and oranges. Why? Because to use visualization effectively your body needs to already have the "feel" of the skill in action. People who don't have the skill will be visualizing fantasy.

On top of all that T, you do Chu sau lei don't you? Isn't there a whole thread burbling on about your precious ****ing structure that nobody else has? You say structure, Hendrik says engine... you say tomato, I say you're a hypocritical
gobsh!te...!

First, I said that a few others do have the "body structure" that Hawkins/Robert emphasize in their teaching. It is, in my view, part and parcel of WCK. Second, I don't "say structure". If you bothered to read what I said before, I said there is really no such thing as "body structure", that what is really being talked about is a certain sort of body mechanics. Third, the use of these terms, like "engine", "DNA", etc. are just creating an extra, unnecessary, and misleading layer of theoretical nonsense in WCK.

But wait, you've got proof! There's Alan Orr and his team - they're doing a great job (albeit in 'NHB' where head shots don't seem to be allowed - bit like an opera contest without fat blokes) and we all take it on trust that it's something to do with the testimonialed-up-the-yazoo structure that we can't see... so how many of these Emei people have you tested out then, T? Or are you just judging it by vid?

Here again is a classic example of flabby thought. Whether you agree with Alan or not, he has provided at least some measure of proof that he can do what he says he can do. Proof. Not just claims. Proof. In fighting. And even if you don't like the amatuer MMA events, he has sparred with headshots against good fighters, like at the Shark Tank, etc. Contrast that with Ermei -- where is there any evidence that any of this stuff works? Show me *one* Ermei fighter that can use this stuff in sparring against anyone with decent skills/attributes. You're right, I haven't tested this out against any Ermei fighters -- and I never will. Because they don't exist. But if you think this stuff actually is good, it is up to you to the people claiming it works to provide the proof.

Now, anyone reasonably intelligent - which seems to preclude a lot of people -- can see what fights are really like. There are vids of MMA/NHB/street/bar/etc. fights all over the web. Anyone who spars with decent people will *know* what sorts of things may work and what definately will not. Because they know that fighting is 100%, and that whatever you do needs to be able to deal with your opponent's 100% (power, speed, etc.), with what they will really dish out. That silly stuff just won't work.

If nothing else, cricket, Robert Chu himself (so isn't he your sifu or sigung or something?) has just come on and said they're linked, so please, just STFU and leave the coversation to those who may have something constructive to say.

Robert sees a similarity of movement. Fine. Do you think this somehow is an authoratative answer? But I'll defer to Robert, and assume that Yik Kam's SLT "looks" similar to E12J. (Which isn't surprising since I have heard that the Yik Kam kuit essentially Ermei's kuit). But so what? What does that prove? You can look at xing yi and see lots of similarities too. BFD. All TCMA is basically the same ingredient's just mixed together differently. So we can look at just about any two methods and see similarities.

There is that story of Chang (?) the Shuai-Jiao fighter who came upon someone doing his "form", and Chang told the guy that he was doing his Shuai-Jiao form all wrong. The guy replied that he was doing a tai ji form, not a Shuai-Jiao form. (Same ingredients). So Chang took the time to learn the form from the guy, and later used it to teach Shuai-Jiao.

AndrewS

07-07-2007, 11:36 PM

Let's pray for him for his healing instead of abandon him or lower our energy vibration to his level to argue with him. IMHO

Low level energy vibration?

Sounds like. . .

BASS

http://youtube.com/watch?v=piomkpDqBdQ

Andrew

Alan Orr

07-07-2007, 11:53 PM

RE Mr Punch:

But wait, you've got proof! There's Alan Orr and his team - they're doing a great job (albeit in 'NHB' where head shots don't seem to be allowed

ALAN: I'm not sure why people only half read information.

My guys have be fighting in Pro MMA NHB fights.

The no head shots is the Amateur NHB contests which we do fight in.

But also we have had 3 wins in Pro NHB MMA with head shots and elbows.

We have add a boxing match win as well.

We have had kick boxing 7 wins.

All these events have head shots.

Amateur NHB is a lot harder that you think anyway. Try it.

Regards

Alan

t_niehoff

07-08-2007, 12:24 AM

Low level energy vibration?

Sounds like. . .

BASS

http://youtube.com/watch?v=piomkpDqBdQ

Andrew

No, more like this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=TbE5HtqU7us

;)

AndrewS

07-08-2007, 12:39 AM

Terence writes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewS
Low level energy vibration?

Sounds like. . .

BASS

http://youtube.com/watch?v=piomkpDqBdQ

Andrew

No, more like this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=TbE5HtqU7us

That may Hendricks' low level vibration. . .

Here's mine

http://youtube.com/watch?v=K6Wnx6mdwHs

Wu Wei Wu

07-08-2007, 02:05 AM

Andrew,

I came across this pretty high level vibration:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=kZGvnI37mxk

WWW

Liddel

07-08-2007, 02:46 AM

I could see similarities in energy creation with regard to actions. Be it very small ones....

Rotating forearms inside to out in one part of the vid has similar torque energy to certain actions in my VT. I.E Tan Sao....

I agree with some - its a big ask though "Drawing a long Bow" as Andrew put it.

I mean what do simlarities mean anyway....
- Direct link, or
- Coincedence :rolleyes:

You'll never know.
Drawing similarities between VT Kuen and something like that, is akin to watching someone trip over a crack in the ground, recover and saying - hey thats the end action in BJ. :rolleyes:

Then again, if you agree with terrence about MA's and sport having close ties, then the fact you see similarities would be because the human body is govern by its natural skeletal mechanics.

Which would mean, all human physical endevour would have similarities.....depending on the observers imagination :cool:

DREW

Ultimatewingchun

07-08-2007, 03:42 AM

"But also we have had 3 wins in Pro NHB MMA with head shots and elbows.
We have add a boxing match win as well.
We have had kick boxing 7 wins.
All these events have head shots." (Alan Orr)

***ANY CHANCE you could post a little video clip of one of these fights, Alan? (Even a 30-40 second clip would be good).

Would like to see it.

YungChun

07-08-2007, 08:56 PM

All of the above is nonsense. Theorists look at everything ass-backward. WCK is like any other physical activity, like basketball, like tennis, like boxing, like wrestling, etc. These things are not based on "ideas" or "concepts", there is no "idea set", etc. You begin with skills, physical skills - using your body to do specific things, to accomplish specific tasks. Concepts can in some cases help us in applying our skills, in that they are essentially temporary substitutes for experience.

Lame rebuttal Terence..

"That's nonsense" means nothing.. Why? Because you say so?

H0m0sapiens--create ideas...then build those ideas through physical actions...

The mind, the ever creating, idea generator, is where all man made things come from......

To compare/study the thing, it only makes sense to study the idea in addiion to what it brings rise to.. To suggest otherwise is quite absurd/illogical and generally hard headed..

How do you know you are doing WCK? Because you are imitating your teacher and he said so? LMAO... You're argument speaks only of imitation and mimicry...

Sports involve and are based on rules and regulations...They are IN FACT based on, and are, ideas..

A tree for example, is not a man made thing, it's not a man made idea, so studying trees would only involve studying the tree, but one would still need to study the seed to get a complete picuture..

If a hundred years from now baseball was gone, after a great war and folks couldn't remember how to play it they would consult texts on baseball..assuming they didn't remember ALL the rules and guidelines and ideas on what the sport is and how to take advantage of those rules..

Tons of texts have been written about all major sports.. Whoa you'd better go tell those folks who have written about sports, ideas, strategies, rules, how the game is played, tips and tricks, that they all have their heads up their butts.. Likewise, the concepts and guidelines of what any MA is are defined by those ideas and are the seeds of what the founders of those arts planted in the hopes of the arts being passed on...

A scientific study of a thing involves studying all it's myriad parts, anything and everything that, by definition is part of that thing .. These WCK concepts that I am sure you teach using your mouth and body in class are in fact part of what the art is... THAT is a FACT sir..

If all that the art is can only be expressed by doing the art then I would expect the following in your class..

1. You only demonstrate the art through application..
2. Students must learn the art through imitating you..
3. Those who will learn are limited to performing the art at the level you demonstrate it at.
4. No knowledge is transferred by you other than by you fighting someone.

Texts/knowledge bases and concepts are a guide and allow folks to go beyond what you or someone else demonstrating the art can do... It gives them an idea; which is an ideal to shoot for..

When you teach, I am certain that your mouth is moving at a hundred miles an hour.. What's the first thing you teach new students and how do you do that? Beat someone up..? If not your argument doesn't match your method..

My guess is much of your teaching is done with that mouth of yours.. Before folks train something new that new thing has to be explained...

No doubt you have not reached the ideal so limiting students to what you can do, for example, would be limiting the art... Not to mention most folks could never learn the complete art by simply watching you demo how WCK beats people up....right?

I am sure there is much more to how you teach, right? RIGHT!

You use ideas and concepts to get the point across, right? RIGHT!

So you’re really full of it, right? RIGHT!

Hendrik

07-09-2007, 12:50 AM

Most of us dont like, dont know how to get deeper under the skin to find out what happen. or dont know they exist or dont accept they exist.

IMHO, it is not what is it under the skin which I am promoting.
But get deeper under the skin to examine things is the intention.

I could be right or wrong for the Emei connection. however, if everyone update/upgrade to be able to go under the skin. Then, we are have made progress.

Thus,
as I have heard,
for example, using the hip to punch as in karate and or other Southen CMA is very different compare to if one knows the NeiJIng or WaiJIng eventhough explicitly looks similar. not to mention, at the level of using the spining of Dan Tie to roll/ swing... out the power.
So, are we going to get stuck at thinking everything is same with Karate? or go deeper find out about what is the NeiJing and WaiJing way of implement things. and might go even deeper to find out how the spining of the Dan Tien which suppostly a faster way of handling physical is about; that is the level of lay lau hui song.... comes accept.....using the silence to handle the action. Silence is very important there as I have heard.

I convince, when people get to the level of spining Dan Tien... then they know, it is White crane and Emei 12 zhuang. However, in the general level It will be difficult to tell.

Just some thoughts.

Ultimatewingchun

07-09-2007, 02:07 AM

Why even argue with this guy, Jim? I mean, this is so retarded:

"Theorists look at everything ass-backward. WCK is like any other physical activity, like basketball, like tennis, like boxing, like wrestling, etc. These things are not based on "ideas" or "concepts". (T)

***EVERY SPORT/COMPETITIVE PHYSICAL ENDEAVOR is based upon ideas and concepts. He purposely confuses attributes with principles - to suit his argumentative agenda.

AND THERE WAS A TIME WHEN HE TOOK REVERSE POSITIONS, ie.- wing chun development (what you learn from forms, chi sao, etc. ) is actually hindered by competitive sparring.

Kinda like this:

:p :o

:D :D :D :D :D

YungChun

07-09-2007, 02:10 AM

Why even argue with this guy, Jim? I mean, this is so retarded:

"Theorists look at everything ass-backward. WCK is like any other physical activity, like basketball, like tennis, like boxing, like wrestling, etc. These things are not based on "ideas" or "concepts". (T)

***EVERY SPORT/COMPETITIVE PHYSICAL ENDEAVOR is based upon ideas and concepts. He purposely confuses attributes with principles - to suit his argumentative agenda.

AND THERE WAS A TIME WHEN HE TOOK REVERSE POSITIONS, ie.- wing chun development is actually hindered by competitive sparring.

Kinda like this:

:p :o

:D :D :D :D :D

You're right of course... But it can be 'a dik tive'... :)

Mr Punch

07-09-2007, 03:28 AM

This clip is valueable because it serve as data point on what WCK is like in the 1930's.

We need to keep this type of records for every family or lineage. These are treasure for the art of WCK.Completely agreed.
Finally...
Terence is not a problem. ...Well, thank you, I've reached my higher vibration for the day: I'm still vibrating with laughter! :D

Mr Punch

07-09-2007, 03:40 AM

RE Mr Punch:
ALAN: I'm not sure why people only half read information.****, sorry I couldn't remember every post on the forum! :D But seriously, my sincere apologies for missing some of that...

I wasn't attacking you at all btw. i think what you're doing is pretty cool. But, Iw as using you as an example: a lot of chunners take you as proof that WC works, when they don't use the same body mechanics as you. Terence too, uses you as proof that his body mechanics work: we should listen to him because of you achievements, which is cheap **** IMO. I'm not trying to stir anything; I don't know either of you personally, and you two prob do know each other, but all I'm saying is, T comes down on Emei people for having had no proven fighters (when there must be almost literally only a handful of Emei people in the world anyway) and HE has no proof of anything. He takes their vid apart and then says you can't tell anything without feeling it.

Get what I'm saying?

Then on top of that, he says we don't even have proof that many of the 'past masters' even existed, which seems to be

a) dissing the whole of the people who developed the art, however much it's evolved and however irrelevant the art they developed is to modern fighting, and

b) Taking the whole (video) proof thing to a ridiculous level: I haven't seen any proof of the Romans invading Britain, but I know it happened. Why? Because of books and their stories... pretty much like some of the stories of the old masters.

Amateur NHB is a lot harder that you think anyway.Hold up pal, just here you don't know wtf I know or think about amateur NHB. Try it.As I'm sure you're aware, sometimes it's difficult to even get any.

Hendrik

07-09-2007, 05:13 AM

SLT, music..... all is art.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFJYrXzaLlo

enjoy and have an excellent week to come.

Peace

t_niehoff

07-10-2007, 06:04 PM

Lame rebuttal Terence..

"That's nonsense" means nothing.. Why? Because you say so?

H0m0sapiens--create ideas...then build those ideas through physical actions...

The mind, the ever creating, idea generator, is where all man made things come from......

Of course the brain (mind) is the source of everything we do (I couldn't breath without my brain), but that doesn't mean that "ideas" are the source of everything. You are looking at WCK as an belief system, not a physical activity (like a sport is a physical activity).

To compare/study the thing, it only makes sense to study the idea in addiion to what it brings rise to.. To suggest otherwise is quite absurd/illogical and generally hard headed..

How do you know you are doing WCK? Because you are imitating your teacher and he said so? LMAO... You're argument speaks only of imitation and mimicry...

How do I know that I am playing basketball or tennis or boxing or BJJ? It's not imitation or mimicy. You learn the tools/skills of that activity and then do the activity. Same for WCK: you learn the tools/skills of WCK and then do the activity (fight).

Sports involve and are based on rules and regulations...They are IN FACT based on, and are, ideas..

You don't learn or develop physical skills, like the ability to throw a ball or ride a bike or dribble a basketball or throw a punch or surf, through intellectual means (although there will be reflection). You develop those physical skills by physically doing them. Of course to learn a new skill from someone you need to have the parameters of that skill (the task, features, etc.) communicated to you, by observation, through words, etc. But that communication is always by its very nature incomplete, not controlling.

A tree for example, is not a man made thing, it's not a man made idea, so studying trees would only involve studying the tree, but one would still need to study the seed to get a complete picuture..

If a hundred years from now baseball was gone, after a great war and folks couldn't remember how to play it they would consult texts on baseball..assuming they didn't remember ALL the rules and guidelines and ideas on what the sport is and how to take advantage of those rules..

Tons of texts have been written about all major sports.. Whoa you'd better go tell those folks who have written about sports, ideas, strategies, rules, how the game is played, tips and tricks, that they all have their heads up their butts.. Likewise, the concepts and guidelines of what any MA is are defined by those ideas and are the seeds of what the founders of those arts planted in the hopes of the arts being passed on...

A ton may have been written about basketball, tennis, BJJ, and WCK, but you don't learn or develop skill in those things by reading. You develop skill in all those physical activities by doing them. The reading is secondary. (Lots of people get really good without the reading, but no one gets good without the doing).

Now, w/r/t WCK -- a lot has been written (and taught), but mostly (almost all of it) by people who have very little real skill in WCK, fighting skill with WCK tools. Imagine if people who couldn't play basketbball worth sh1t wrote the books on how to play basketball -- how valuable would they be? These people are passing on "ideas" that they cannot put into action beyond a superficial level. We all "talk" about the centerline, but ask ten different WCK people what it is, what it means, its significance, etc. and you get 10 different answers. And which of them can actually use this "concept", can actually put it to work successfully in fighting decently skilled fighters? Yet they all "believe" they are correct. This is the conceptual approach: begin with an ill-conceived idea of how fighting/WCK "should" be (based mainly on what you were told by someone who couldn't do it), then reinforce that erroneous idea through unrealistic training, derive more ideas from this unrealistic practice, and repeat.

From my perspective, it isn't what you know - or more accurately believe you know -- but what you can actually do, in fighting, and at the level you can do it at (the quality level of your opponent) that is important. And your understanding is directly related to that level of skill, your level of performance ability. Begin with the fight (the activity), and let application be your sifu (IOWs, do what you do in every other physical activity -- let your actual results guide you in your development). In this way, you are not bound to ideas/concepts, you are bound to results - ways in which you can get the optimal results with the WCK tools in fighting.

A scientific study of a thing involves studying all it's myriad parts, anything and everything that, by definition is part of that thing .. These WCK concepts that I am sure you teach using your mouth and body in class are in fact part of what the art is... THAT is a FACT sir..

WCK, like BJJ and boxing, have cerain fundamental skills that need to be learned, developed, etc. That is mainly accomplished by showing the various skills/tools to the trainee and then having them practice them. Corrections are given as needed. Advice is given as needed. Sometimes this can be generalized (a concept) and sometimes it is specific. In my view, the less "theory" the better.

If all that the art is can only be expressed by doing the art then I would expect the following in your class..

1. You only demonstrate the art through application..
2. Students must learn the art through imitating you..
3. Those who will learn are limited to performing the art at the level you demonstrate it at.
4. No knowledge is transferred by you other than by you fighting someone.

I teach WCK as I would teach tennis or basketball -- help them learn and develop the various tools/skills (often individualized) they will need to play, help them learn and develop the strategies and tactics to use those skills in the overall game, play the game (spar) a lot, analyze their play with them, make corrections, play some more. I don't transfer knowledge -- they learn by doing, and so develop their own WCK.

Texts/knowledge bases and concepts are a guide and allow folks to go beyond what you or someone else demonstrating the art can do... It gives them an idea; which is an ideal to shoot for..

An objective doesn't have to be some "idea" -- it can be a very real and tangible thing (an outcome, for example).

When you teach, I am certain that your mouth is moving at a hundred miles an hour.. What's the first thing you teach new students and how do you do that? Beat someone up..? If not your argument doesn't match your method..

My guess is much of your teaching is done with that mouth of yours.. Before folks train something new that new thing has to be explained...

No doubt you have not reached the ideal so limiting students to what you can do, for example, would be limiting the art... Not to mention most folks could never learn the complete art by simply watching you demo how WCK beats people up....right?

I am sure there is much more to how you teach, right? RIGHT!

You use ideas and concepts to get the point across, right? RIGHT!

So you’re really full of it, right? RIGHT!

Have you ever gone to a BJJ class? How much taking do they do? You are shown a few techniques, some of the finer points may be highlighted, you pair up and practice them, if you have questions/problems you may ask the instructor for help. Then you spar. It's not too different for boxing or muay thai. Not a whole lot of gabbing going on. That's why they call it training and not a lecture. ;)

For me, WCK is fairly straightforward and is a small method. There's not a great deal to talk about in terms of theory or concepts (most of what I hear I think is nonsense). And more often than not, talk only gets in the way in the gym. I know that for myself, I don't want to hear someone tell me how to do it or how it "should" be done, I want to see someone do it (in fighting), see how it *can* (not should) be done, and then try to do it for myself.

YungChun

07-10-2007, 09:54 PM

t_niehoff

07-10-2007, 10:31 PM

I hear you Terence...

IMO WCK is:

1. A combative training system/methodology..
2. A fighting system/methodology..

IMO the only way you can claim you are actually doing WCK is by comparing your fighting methodology with the training system/methodology.. Much or all of the latter is contained in the forms which you already awknowleged are the 'texts' of the system, and in the WCK concepts passed in these forms, drills and Kuen Kuit...

If you choose to not go by this standard, the WCK core, then what your doing might as well be Terence Kune Do... And in my opinion, and from what I have seen, read and get from you, that's exactly what you're doing..

And I think that's fine...

Good luck with that... :D

You can have some "idea" of what you believe WCK is, Hendrik may have another, and someone else another -- you are all going to tell me what "is" WCK, and what is "good", what is "bad", why "your WCK is better than his WCK", etc. This is all just belief structure, and ultimately fantasy. Your "standard" is a belief, and you point to your interpretation of things that are vague (forms, drills, kuit) to support your belief. For me, your belief is irrelevant; I'm only interested in what you can do.

Yes, the "forms" are texts, but not in the sense you see them. Imagine if I created a tennis form, where I linked together various skills (the real core of any method is the skills) - forehand, backhand, drop shot, serve, charging the net, etc. - as a teaching device. That form is not in itself tennis (though it may represent some of the skills of tennis), and cannot impose any standards - because there are no standards other than performance. Your tennis ability is determined by your performance on the court. How well your forehand or backhand is will not be determined by some objective, theoretical standard, and not by how well you mimic the form, but by how well (hard, deep, accurately) you can actually hit the ball (performance). Your "ideas" on how a groundstroke"should" be performed isn't in any way controlling; what is controlling is your results.

In terms of WCK, your skill, and attendant knowledge/understanding is in how well you can use the tools/skills of WCK (those skills represented in the forms) in fighting -- your performance ability. You see WCK as essentially an intellectual and/or philosophical pursuit (with conceptual standards, etc.) and assume this represents the "best" way. In my view, this is because you do not appreciate that WCK is no different (in kind) than any other athletic activity, and that's not how any open-skill, athletic activity works. I see WCK as a physical skill (the ability to do something) comprised to a large extent by some sub-skills.

All fighters, whether in BJJ or boxing or WCK, must like all athletes in any open skill athletic activity (or sport), develop their own game, their own BJJ, their own boxing or their own WCK. So, although I am not doing "Terence Kune Do", I am doing Terence's WCK -- just as I am doing Terence's BJJ and Terence's tennis.

monji112000

07-10-2007, 11:05 PM

All fighters, whether in BJJ or boxing or WCK, must like all athletes in any open skill athletic activity (or sport), develop their own game, their own BJJ, their own boxing or their own WCK. So, although I am not doing "Terence Kune Do", I am doing Terence's WCK -- just as I am doing Terence's BJJ and Terence's tennis.

its a proven fact that Lipp Kune do is the most deadly:) martial art on the planet.

Hendrik

07-11-2007, 01:54 AM

could anyone who has the Siu Tze jong of the 12 jong clip post the first half of it?

t_niehoff

07-11-2007, 03:21 PM

its a proven fact that Lipp Kune do is the most deadly:) martial art on the planet.

Oh, ouch!, quite the comback! ;)

We're on a forum so all we can to is talk. Of course, not all talk is equal. Some people, especially the crude one's who can't really defend their views - with either substance or evidence - resort to ad hominem attacks. I guess I should expect the name calling to soon follow.

Hendrik

07-22-2007, 10:00 AM

Emei 12 Zhuang connection will open up another chapter of WCK. That is forsure.... That is just a begining.

and we need to start somewhere..

enjoy the music, somedays the music will start...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpYr6aSLMoU

Hendrik

07-30-2007, 08:15 AM

A section of the Little letter Zhuang at the second half of the clip.

http://www.youtube.com/v/uKASkDfmV9g

canglong

07-30-2007, 11:24 AM

Byond1,
Have you ever examined the possiblilty that Yik Kam was trained in Emei and that was incorporated into his wing chun but not that of Wong Wah Bo or Leung Yi Tai? Since not all White Crane can be placed under the same umbrella why throw in wing chun. Isn't it more plausible that Yik Kam if mixed with emei, white crane and wing chun this would help explain why the Yik Kam lineage is close to emie but still different than white crane and wing chun families that have an oral history equal in timeline to that of Yik Kam.

Hendrik

07-30-2007, 05:31 PM

Youtube.com link to clips on Hendrik discussing Yik Kam SLT

Part 1a:
http://www.youtube.com/v/zKWVOc2HOig

Part 1b:
http://www.youtube.com/v/p3ntCGIoMvM

Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/v/uKASkDfmV9g

please

compare the art of Slt of different lineages such as YKS....... to the little letter zhuang of emei above, and see what happen.

here we start with a time capsule before the 60's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiBMTLGfC3E

if you could find the YKS SLT .. please post it and let everyone see ...

pay attention to the naure of finger handling of all lineages... since WCK is know for its feminine and speciality in finger... ask the question, does WCK train the finger ... similar to hung gar ?

such as

these

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDTniv8PuW0&NR=1

or there always a feminin style where more and more fade away today?

The DNA characteristics is written in the details with --- Crane, Snake, Finger, Feminine....

peace

Hendrik

07-30-2007, 10:07 PM

still my favorite

http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1808590078/trailer

click on dance

byond1

07-31-2007, 04:05 AM

Canglong -

Currently the AWCKRI research work is starting from what is more.."known". Starting with linking Opera Boat WCK to White Crane is essential as the first step. We plan on clearly comparing and contrasting White Crane with Opera Boat WCK. If we can define what was given to OB WCK from White Crane, it will be clear, what material didnt come from the White Crane. We will than have a starting point for investigation for the Snake boxing art.

I would say anything is a possibility in the world of WCK.

byond1

07-31-2007, 04:08 AM

Hendrik -

Great sharing. Im going to watch them, and let the information sink in a bit.

B

Hendrik

07-31-2007, 07:49 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uGbSvl68RE

another slt. compare this to the small letter zhuang above and see....

anyone care to vote for the poll now after watching the emei 12 zhuang's Siu Tze Zhuang?

canglong

07-31-2007, 08:07 AM

originally posted by Byond1
Starting with linking Opera Boat WCK to White Crane is essential as the first step.Shouldn't that state that you are starting at the Opera boats in order to sort things out. If you state a preference for WCK to be linked to White Crane aren't you placing the cart before the horse?

Hendrik

07-31-2007, 09:09 PM

Hendrik -

Great sharing. Im going to watch them, and let the information sink in a bit.

B

Brian,

Get the white crane's Ba Fen Clip from the Pan family of China. (please post it here if you have the clip)

Fuse it

with the Siu Tze Zhuang above.

Now,
See what it becomes.

or even do it scientifically with high tech physics analysis and simulation. we have the technology today. no need time machine but multi-diamentional structure dynamic simulation and analysis. perhaps with spline....and tenso vector analysis based.

one could use computer dynamic/resultant force vectors analysis and see what is the likely of fusing the above two become----- SLT/SNT type of dynamics.

Or via computer simulartion, fuse the two above and see what kind of results come out...

you might cracking the code of Miu Shun..

peace

byond1

08-01-2007, 04:52 AM

Canglong -

To clairify , what I am calling "Opera boat WCK"
are branchs of WCK, that trace their lineages to Ng Mui and then the opera boats, NOT any other tradition.

Hence I clearly state Opera Boat WCK, so im not making a blanket statement which wouldnt be fair to say HFY or Pao Fa Lien, as they preserve differant traditions, which it isnt my place to connect their beliefs to my beliefs or my lineage tradition nor my research. Im using the term "Opera boat WCK" to limit what I am talking about, so others can understand and relate.

YKS Family, MGW Family Cheung Bo Family, Lo Kwai Family, Yiu Choi Family, Cho Family (traditionaly), Kulo Village/Fung Family, Yip Man Foshan Family, and Chan Family all trace their art to Ng Mui. Most of the traditions clearly define her as a "White Crane boxer" and that either she or a student of hers fused the Crane boxing with a Snake boxing style.

I dont know where White Crane boxing came from. At this point, I dont care, and thats for others to research - Shaolin?? Hakka?? Both?? Hence there is variation to where Ng Mui was from, and is neither here nor there.

Our goal is to substantiate the oral tradition of Ng Mui and White Crane boxing and to clearly define what aspects of Opera Boat WCK are from the White Crane parent.

Working with the Opera troups and trying to prove WCK was on the boats, IMO, will never happen. There is very little historical information from the time of the T ai Ping and the Opera ban. Info doesnt really pick up until the ban lifted. So, Just as HFY lineage chooses to call itself Shaolin, other branchs choose to call themselves Opera boat. Its simply what are individual lineages relate themselves to.

If we can substantiate a link to White Crane technicaly - than I will be happy and content.

byond1

08-01-2007, 06:03 AM

Hendrik

08-01-2007, 07:02 AM

Hendrik

Do you have video conferancing? It took me several weeks to figure this out, but at freedownloads.com , I dowloaded Skytype for free. This week, If you have the time and inclination, I would like to chat.

I think you will be very surprised at how close my ideas of Snake and Crane, are to what you demonstrated.

B

Brian,

I dont have the set up for video conferencing. However, feel free to drop by when you are around.

as for how close is your ideas on the Snake and Crane, Certainly, WCK is WCK, as soon as we all dig deep enough we will see the same stuffs because we all share the same ancestors. I am not exclusive.

we were discussing on wck.com with Robert and Jim.. there are 7 matches that pointing to Emei 12 Zhuang. please feel free to join in. This is no longer my matter but everyone's every WCner's matter. Hope that we all start a new exciting Volume for WCK's history. let us all make our WCK history together across all lineages.

Best Regards
Hendrik

Hendrik

08-01-2007, 07:09 AM

If we can substantiate a link to White Crane technicaly - than I will be happy and content.

Brian,

IMHO

Yes,

Zhao Yang the Facing Sun is the solid evidence or the umbilical cord to the mother and as solid as gold.

Lucky that Yik Kam and the Cho ancestors has preserved it down to GM Cho Hong-Choy.

Close the case, the rest is only about releasing more kuen kuit to the public. IMHO. I dont release the kuit to the public because I promise to secure the core. otherwise, if the core was destroy within the family accidentally or naively then the ancestors' blood line is cut off or wip out forever. and now, the core is secure in the USA as more practitioners of Yik Kam lineage surface from Russell, Robert, Jim.....

As Gm CHC put it, return it to the WCners when the time is right...

and I have only two request, please remember Yik Kam, Cho ancestors, and my sifu Cho Hong-Choy without them the information preservation is not possible. and use it for Loving Kindness and peace. WCK is about spring not about killing.

Best Regards
Hendrik

duende

08-01-2007, 07:55 PM

All that has been provided here as so called proof is merely a bunch of speculative talk and some highly questionable linking of video's from different TMA's doing chi gong meditation and forms.

This is utter nonsense. Sorry, but Hendrik's video of himself talking about snake and crane energy is not impressive or enlightening in the least to any truly experienced TMA. Let's here him talk about dragon, tiger and leopard as well and then well start to see the bigger picture.

I must say I agree with Tony on this one.

Byond1,
Have you ever examined the possiblilty that Yik Kam was trained in Emei and that was incorporated into his wing chun but not that of Wong Wah Bo or Leung Yi Tai? Since not all White Crane can be placed under the same umbrella why throw in wing chun. Isn't it more plausible that Yik Kam if mixed with emei, white crane and wing chun this would help explain why the Yik Kam lineage is close to emie but still different than white crane and wing chun families that have an oral history equal in timeline to that of Yik Kam.

Show me Yik Kam's WCK used effectively as a fighting art. Let's see what it looks like then.

Show me it's wooden dummy, show me it's butterfly swords, show me it's 6 and 1/2 point pole. Or does Yik Kam say that these do not come from Shaolin either???

And yes... take a look at "Pa Fa Lin Wing Chun" video. How fortunate we are to have this video document. Look at his "off on"energy when confronting the wooden dummy that expresses both hard and soft. Look at his gate coverage... look at his simultaneous attack and defence.... look at his centerline facing.

I've yet to see any of these things expressed so clean cut or effectively by any of Hendrik's videos.

Finally look at his SLT form. It's a tragic mistake to downplay a 96 year old man's running through his SLT with general hand motions and shapes and link it with a lineage that has mixed up it's art with White crane and Emei.

Look closer... at his movements. You can clearly see gate theory concept, and also heaven human earth range and energy generating, along with many many other techniques not only in found YM, but HFY and Chi Sim as well.

It is not uncommon for any WC practioner to run through his SLT relaxed this way and focus on flowing.

Let's be clear.... if Hendrik wants to say that his lineage comes from white crane and Emei. FIne...... that is certainly understandable. However, Yik Kam's Kune Kuits apply to Yik Kam's ancestors only.

The rest of WC (that comes from Yik Kam's Sihing btw) not only have are own history that goes to Shaolin, but our own kune Kuits that are readily expressed in our forms, weapons and fighting applications.