Claims about MMA

[Fu-Pow]

I've recently been told by several people on this board the following....

A) MMA (ie Judo, BJJ and Muy Thai) has all the important techniques techniques/strategies/skills of TCMA they are just called something else.

B) If MMA doesn't have technique Y of CMA style X it is because it is not important, because if it was MMA would already have it (see A).


To the first charge I'd say that there is probably some overlap, with some styles more than others. However, every style of CMA has unique things about it. When presented with a problem (ie how to defend oneself or fight) the human mind is incredible at coming up with all kinds of different solutions to that problem.

To my knowledge there are over 300 styles of Kung Fu that have been documented in China so I find it kind of silly to say that in all cases "MMA already has it."

To the second charge, I'd say that that this reveals a kind of insular hubris of the MMA crowd. The MMA training methodology is geared toward solving a certain problem. The problem of how to win MMA competitions. There is a whole world of martial arts out there, designed to counter different sets of problems, maybe one or more of those solutions would work as well or BETTER than the current arsenal of MMA "accepted" solutions.

FP

[MasterKiller]

MMA has no kwan-dao defense.

You win.

[Fu-Pow]

MMA has no kwan-dao defense.

You win.

Nice try. I'm talking about hand to hand combat w/o weapons.

[WinterPalm]

MMA has no kwan-dao defense.

You win.

Actually it does...duh! If you looked at the tablets Knifefighter brought down the mountain from Helio then you would know...

[gwa sow]

this argument is irrevalent. everyone knows kung fu is to deadly for the cage.

[sihing]

Actually it does...duh! If you looked at the tablets Knifefighter brought down the mountain from Helio then you would know...

LOL...:).....

[MasterKiller]

A) MMA (ie Judo, BJJ and Muy Thai) has all the important techniques techniques/strategies/skills of TCMA they are just called something else.

B) If MMA doesn't have technique Y of CMA style X it is because it is not important, because if it was MMA would already have it (see A).


The problem here is there is no "MMA" style.

MMA is a combination of sport styles such as Judo, Boxing, Muay Thai, Greco-Roman, Freestyle wrestling, etc...

The hubris of CMA assuming that they have "something special" that is not found within the context of one or more other styles is the real issue.

Your claim that only Taiji uses shoulder and hip strikes, for example, is made purely out of ignorance of other grappling/wrestling styles.

[Ben Gash]

He said what?????????????????????????????
His old style Choy Li Fut is loaded with them :rolleyes:
Baji is famous for them
as is Xingyi
Catch wrestlers have always used them.
Capoeira has them
Taekkyon has them
I'm sure Jujitsu has them.
Pointless technocentricity is what's wrong with the TCMA scene :(

[TenTigers]

hubris-isn't that the middle-eastern dip made from chickpeas?

[TenTigers]

I would guess that MMA, having a large Brazillian influence, would have more garlic, parsley, and olive oil, in their hubris, while CMA hubris would probably use chinese parsley (cilantro) and possibly depending on region, hot red peppers. .

[gwa sow]

actually, many latin american countries use cilantro as well.

[Fu-Pow]

The problem here is there is no "MMA" style.

Totally and categorically disagree. MMA is a style composed of other styles, developed to solve a certain obstacle (ie MMA competition.)


MMA is a combination of sport styles such as Judo, Boxing, Muay Thai, Greco-Roman, Freestyle wrestling, etc...

You got it all right.....except for the "etc."


The hubris of CMA assuming that they have "something special" that is not found within the context of one or more other styles is the real issue.

Most traditional styles have similarities, but its not always WHAT they have, its HOW they execute those same techniques. Shuai Na Ti Da is in pretty much all TMA but executed differently with different emphasis.

AND different styles have different specialties

AND sometimes certain techniques/strategies/training methodologies ARE unique to a certain style.


Your claim that only Taiji uses shoulder and hip strikes, for example, is made purely out of ignorance of other grappling/wrestling styles.

Except I never wrote that. Read what I wrote again.

[Ben Gash]

Technically only latin countries use Cilantro, in Europe and Asia we use Coriander, a virtually identical yet geneticalyy different herb.

[gwa sow]

hmmm very interesting, never heard of it before.:D

[Fu-Pow]

He said what?????????????????????????????
His old style Choy Li Fut is loaded with them :rolleyes:

With shoulder strikes? Bull$hit.


Baji is famous for them
as is Xingyi

Yes, also have shoulder strikes as one of their specialty.


Catch wrestlers have always used them.
Capoeira has them
Taekkyon has them
I'm sure Jujitsu has them.

I'm sure if you looked hard enough in any style you could come up with a shoulder strike here or there.

[MasterKiller]

You got it all right.....except for the "etc." I left out BJJ, Sambo, San Shou, etc...

[MysticNinjaJay]

Totally and categorically disagree. MMA is a style composed of other styles, developed to solve a certain obstacle (ie MMA competition.)


MMA is a combat sport that allows many styles of martial arts (hence "Mixed Martial Arts").

To this day many ORGs list the disciplines of fighters and they go by different terms from "Kickboxer" (e.g. Chuck Liddell) to "Mixed Martial Artist" (e.g. Quinton Jackson) to "Submission Fighter" (e.g. Frank Shamrock) to even 'hybrid' style like San Shou + Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (e.g. Cung Le).

BJJ, Kickboxing, Muay Thai, Western Boxing and Submission/Catch Wrestling are some of the most popular arts taught in MMA gyms.

But I'd say MasterKiller is right, MMA itself is not actually a "style".

[Fu-Pow]

I left out BJJ, Sambo, San Shou, etc...

Why isn't any Chinese martial art on that list? Despite your attempt to side step it, that's my point now isn't it.

BTW, don't try to tell me that San Shou is a Chinese Martial Art...its a format.

[Fu-Pow]

But I'd say MasterKiller is right, MMA itself is not actually a "style".

I reject his argument because it sidesteps the point. We can keep adding styles to that list till we're blue in the face.

However, notice that none of them are Chinese. That whole knowledge base has been dismissed as "the same" or with "nothing new to offer" or hong kong phooey.

My point of bringing this up is that there are UNIQUE things from TCMA that can add to the knowledge base of MMA despite the claims of some on this board.

I reject the equivalence argument and the not important argument.

[MasterKiller]

Why isn't any Chinese martial art on that list? Despite your attempt to side step it, that's my point now isn't it.

BTW, don't try to tell me that San Shou is a Chinese Martial Art...its a format.

A) Chinese arts aren't typically "Combat Sports."

B) If San Shou is a format, then so is MMA.

[MysticNinjaJay]

I reject his argument because it sidesteps the point. We can keep adding styles to that list till we're blue in the face.

However, notice that none of them are Chinese. That whole knowledge base has been dismissed as "the same" or with "nothing new to offer" or hong kong phooey.

My point of bringing this up is that there are UNIQUE things from TCMA that can add to the knowledge base of MMA despite the claims of some on this board.

I would be interested in some of the techniques you had in mind. I do think that TCMA must have something to offer that is not commonly used in MMA fights, especially in the area of striking.

The Superman/Cobra punch is a technique becoming more popular. GSP knocked Matt Hughes down with it in their 2nd fight and almost stopped him at the end of round 1.

I'd never seen a spinning heel kick attempted in MMA nevermind done successfully (TWICE) until I saw Cung Le's fight with Fryklund.

I think a move like Iron Palm could be pulled off successfully in MMA and become a useful technique to anyone who mastered it.

[MasterKiller]

I'd never seen a spinning heel kick attempted in MMA nevermind done successfully (TWICE) until I saw Cung Le's fight with Fryklund.

They are used occassionally. Heck, even Gonzaga threw one at CroCop.

[AmanuJRY]

BTW, don't try to tell me that San Shou is a Chinese Martial Art...its a format.

B) If San Shou is a format, then so is MMA.

LOL @ double standards!:D

Another "format", not "style" - Pankration ;)

[Fu-Pow]

A) Chinese arts aren't typically "Combat Sports."

So the MMA "style"=an amalgam of combat sports? Ok, I agree.


B) If San Shou is a format, then so is MMA.

I specifically defined MMA in my first sentence of this thread as Judo, BJJ and Muy Thai. Ok, so let's suppose that definition MMA is a bit too narrow. I'll concede that.

The arguments made to me by you and others have been made specifically about those arts that MOST TYPICALLY make up the curricula of MMA.

Such and such has that or such and such has this. The argument is that there is nothing unique about TCMA that can't be found in those arts that typically make up the curricula of MMA pracititioners. Is that specific enough for you?

On that point I disagree. There are novel things about TCMA..... not found anywhere else. It maybe a complete difference or it may be a difference of emphasis and/or mechanics.

FP

[Notintheface]

What works and what does not work in MMA has been pressure tested and is constantly being fined tuned. When declaring that what the “MMA crowd” has proven to be effective is hubris is inaccurate. This is self-confidence that is developed through constant success with the use of field testing.

Hubris is assuming that untested technique and skill will prevail at any given moment. Hubris is assuming that you are in good enough shape to out run your attacker/s or conditioned enough to take a really hard shot to the jaw. Hubris would be best defined by the following technique clips that I discovered when researching the Looang Foo Pai School. My former roommate recommended them to me when I decided to start training again.

Even though this post may come off as being disrespectful, possibly a troll, but I am actually trying to make a point. These techniques are indicative of what is being passed as actual self defense in many traditional systems. I often see on many boards that “Oh my style is the real deal and your style is crap ect ect. But if you compare most TMA self defense side by side it basically all follows the same structure.

Just so it doesn’t seem like I am attacking these gentlemen only, I will add several clips that will mirror the same kind of nonsense that is prevalent through out TCMA or TMA.


1a) http://www.imagestation.com/4110950/3961103680 (Lethal rib breaking
nipple strikes.)

1b) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTFBd-Az7Xw (took me a while to find
another nipple strike video….. OMG DEATH TOUCH)

2a )http://www.imagestation.com/4110950/3961103246 :rolleyes: Kung fu's
solution to the Ultimate fighter jab cross combo.... Is it just me or would he
have eaten that cross?

2b) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1X1OMVlXpg (More jab cross defense. It’s
so pretty)

2c) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3ASdKml6zU (even more silly punch defense)

3) http://www.imagestation.com/4110950/3961103085 FFS!! tearing ligaments apart with a tiger claw???:mad: Against someone resisting, that pain would have caused a jerk reaction. This means he would have pulled away and that tiger claw, lo kou whatever, wouldn't have been able to hold on.

4a) http://www.imagestation.com/4110950/3961102838 Sigh, just sigh......

4b) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENp6o1_srVY Sigh, He watched Body guard from Beijing one to many times.(Wing Chun)

5) http://www.imagestation.com/4110950/3961102785... WHATs MY NAME!!! Now
that was just funny as hell.

6a) http://www.imagestation.com/4110950/3961102627 (Breaking the arm and the ribs:confused: Nonsense!!! The real nonsense of this self defense technique is that is done off of a lead hand jab.

6b) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lbNGvvrSM0 Just as silly as the above link!


7) http://www.imagestation.com/4110950/3961102499 (The real Chin na...sigh.)

8) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQg1FvFAaPo (Knife defense using Chin-na assuming that the person is compliant enough for you to pull all that off) Sigh


Just to reply to Fu pow’s original post

Quote “To my knowledge there are over 300 styles of Kung Fu that have been documented in China so I find it kind of silly to say that in all cases "MMA already has it."

Even if there are that many Kung-fu systems, how many ways can you throw, strike, trip, grapple, elbow, kick or knee a person? Isn’t it more likely that over time in attempt to be unique more elaborate techniques, that may or may not work, were designed to differentiate systems?

Quote Fu Pow The MMA training methodology is geared toward solving a certain problem.”

All martial arts are geared towards solving the same problem and that is survival. If you think there is any other reason to learn how to defend yourself you are delusional.

Now let me ask you this. Do you think “so called” pure street self-defense martial artist are more likely to prevail against a street attacker? Pair a MMA format practioner versus the “Self-defense person” I am willing to bet the person who trained to actually fight would prevail. When I say trained, I mean a person who has learned to take a blow, pressure tested their technique and understands the difference between ring fighting, street fighting, slow roll, pad work or even kung fu technique drills.

Ring fighting has rules and we all know and understand what that means..right? Within a rule set certain things are excluded, but it is ignorant to believe that if it is not done in the ring that the MMA rule set fighter wouldn’t use it in the street or be prepared for it. I know here people will insert “Oh, but wait, multiple attackers…. Can MMA deal with that?” Well… can any martial arts really deal with that? If you say yes, please go study with the guy in clip 4b.

The next universal comment is probably… “Wait, what about the glass and the concrete ohhh and the baby duckies!” Unless you are training in a school that has concrete floors covered in glass no one will be ready.”

There is always going to be a bit of the unknown during a street fight. Regardless if it is glass on the floor, a person with a bat, multiple attackers or my Sister-in-law chasing after you the person who has trained to actually deal with the encounter will more than likely survive against an attack than the person who Larps it.

Quote Masterkiller
The hubris of CMA assuming that they have "something special" that is not found within the context of one or more other styles is the real issue.


I agree!!!!!!!!!

Quote Fu Pow
My point of bringing this up is that there are UNIQUE things from TCMA that can add to the knowledge base of MMA despite the claims of some on this board.

What does it posses that it can add that is wholly unique in nature, not found in other systems represented in any pressure tested combat format ? When I say comabt format I do not mean against pads, heavy bags or dummies. I mean against someone who is going to move his head when you try to eye gouge him, squeeze his thighs together when you try to pinch his groin or actually take the punch, smile, then head butt you in the face.....

Quote Mystic
I think a move like Iron Palm could be pulled off successfully in MMA and become a useful technique to anyone who mastered it.

NINJA PLEASE….. You made me spit juice out of my nose! I was so trying to be serious and you gone and made me lose my composure.

wow... long post sorry...

[MasterKiller]

I specifically defined MMA in my first sentence of this thread as Judo, BJJ and Muy Thai. Ok, so let's suppose that definition MMA is a bit too narrow. I'll concede that.

MMA is a competition format, regardless of how you personally define it.

The argument is that there is nothing unique about TCMA that can't be found in those arts that typically make up the curricula of MMA pracititioners. Is that specific enough for you?

On that point I disagree. There are novel things about TCMA..... not found anywhere else. It maybe a complete difference or it may be a difference of emphasis and/or mechanics.

Sure, TCMA has LOTS of stuff not found in most competition arts because

a) some techniques are illegal in competition and
b) fighting has evolved, and
c) TCMA has a lot of unbelievably overcomplicated and obtuse techniques

Of couse, since you've never taken an "MMA" class or sparred in an MMA format, you are obviously more qualified to make assumptions about it's content.

[Fu-Pow]

1a) http://www.imagestation.com/4110950/3961103680 (Lethal rib breaking
nipple strikes.)

1b) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTFBd-Az7Xw (took me a while to find
another nipple strike video….. OMG DEATH TOUCH)

2a )http://www.imagestation.com/4110950/3961103246 :rolleyes: Kung fu's
solution to the Ultimate fighter jab cross combo.... Is it just me or would he
have eaten that cross?

2b) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1X1OMVlXpg (More jab cross defense. It’s
so pretty)

2c) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3ASdKml6zU (even more silly punch defense)

3) http://www.imagestation.com/4110950/3961103085 FFS!! tearing ligaments apart with a tiger claw???:mad: Against someone resisting, that pain would have caused a jerk reaction. This means he would have pulled away and that tiger claw, lo kou whatever, wouldn't have been able to hold on.

4a) http://www.imagestation.com/4110950/3961102838 Sigh, just sigh......

4b) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENp6o1_srVY Sigh, He watched Body guard from Beijing one to many times.(Wing Chun)

5) http://www.imagestation.com/4110950/3961102785... WHATs MY NAME!!! Now
that was just funny as hell.

6a) http://www.imagestation.com/4110950/3961102627 (Breaking the arm and the ribs:confused: Nonsense!!! The real nonsense of this self defense technique is that is done off of a lead hand jab.

6b) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lbNGvvrSM0 Just as silly as the above link!


7) http://www.imagestation.com/4110950/3961102499 (The real Chin na...sigh.)

8) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQg1FvFAaPo (Knife defense using Chin-na assuming that the person is compliant enough for you to pull all that off) Sigh

What do you keep this ready to post around?

You're going to take the weakest examples and say that this is indicative of everyone and every style. That's totally illogical.



Even if there are that many Kung-fu systems, how many ways can you throw, strike, trip, grapple, elbow, kick or knee a person? Isn’t it more likely that over time in attempt to be unique more elaborate techniques, that may or may not work, were designed to differentiate systems?

How many ways can build a house with the same materials? How many ways can you cook food with the same ingredients? Well?

Granted, not all houses are going to be as well built, not all dishes are going to taste as good. You will start to find commonalities in approaches to doing things well but outside of those commonalities you will always find diversity. To ignore that diversity or shun it is to lose out.


All martial arts are geared towards solving the same problem and that is survival. If you think there is any other reason to learn how to defend yourself you are delusional.

MMA is geared toward solving a certain problem. How to win MMA matches. What I hear consistently from people in MMA is "if it doesn't win MMA matches it won't be accepted or adopted into the MMA curricula." So don't try to make MMA about training for "self-defense", that may be a side benefit but the focus is always on competition and those competitions are used as the criteria for what is considered valid and what is not.

What I'm saying is there may be some techniques or approaches in TCMA that do not currently exist in the curricula and will help you win matches. To write that off or to say its all "equivalent" is just stupid.


Now let me ask you this. Do you think “so called” pure street self-defense martial artist are more likely to prevail against a street attacker? Pair a MMA format practioner versus the “Self-defense person” I am willing to bet the person who trained to actually fight would prevail. When I say trained, I mean a person who has learned to take a blow, pressure tested their technique and understands the difference between ring fighting, street fighting, slow roll, pad work or even kung fu technique drills.

I'm not going to get into the ring vs street argument. That's not the point of this thread. Let's keep it in the ring for now.

FYI, I agree with the concept of competition as part of training for self-defense. I'm just saying that there are some UNIQUE aspects of TCMA in terms of strategy, technique and methodology that WILL find its way into MMA....eventually, despite resistance from its current adherents.

FP

[Notintheface]

a) some techniques are illegal in competition[QUOTE]

Plus, most of these illegal techniques do not really work as most people assume.
The usual knee break kick, throat strike that supposedly always hits it mark, the fabled groin kick of doom, the standing elbow break and ummmm........... which ones did I forget? oh and the fabled crush a nose into the brain thing.


[QUOTE]Fu Pow
There are novel things about TCMA..... not found anywhere else. It


Fu Pow, Novel does not mean effective. It may have been effective when everyone was fighting in a similar manner meaning kung fu versus kung fu. If this was so, then shouldn't you be able to be recreated a full contact Kung fu event where the techniques were used instead of all the kung fu practitioners falling back on kick boxing skills.

Shan Shou shows the throwing skills, striking skills of Kung fu but is no different that having judo and kick boxing together. Shuai Jiao is not that diffrent than Judo and they can reproduce effectively and realistically what they say they can do. These arts and rule sets I can respect but the rest sometimes is pure nonsense and larping.

Master Killer But when you are talking about things that *really* work vs theory, it's all the same sh1t.

I have to disagree here. Theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; "theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses"; "true in fact and theory"

What most people, especialy those in the clips, are doing is called hypothesizing which is a tentative theory about the natural world; a concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts or phenomena; "a scientific hypothesis that survives experimental testing becomes a scientific theory"; "he proposed a fresh theory of alkalis that later was accepted in chemical practices"

[Fu-Pow]

MMA is a competition format, regardless of how you personally define it.

Actually, if you want to get technical NHB, UFC, IFL, Pride, Vale Tudo, Pankration, are the "formats."

The competitors in these formats practice MMA which is a compendium of arts that are trained to compete in these type of formats. Typically, the most successful training program has been drawn from Judo, BJJ and Muy Thai.

You think that because a student of MMA's training is comprised of several different arts that a practitioner of MMA has no "style."?

B.S. because the MMA practitioner usually pulls training, techniques from several different styles.....from an approved list.

I was told specifically by you and others that these approved "styles" have everything that TCMA has, its just called something different.

And I still disagree with that.



Sure, TCMA has LOTS of stuff not found in most competition arts because

a) some techniques are illegal in competition and
b) fighting has evolved, and
c) TCMA has a lot of unbelievably overcomplicated and obtuse techniques

That's not what I'm talking about.



Of couse, since you've never taken an "MMA" class or sparred in an MMA format, you are obviously more qualified to make assumptions about it's content.

Argumentum ad hominem, do you really want to go down that road? You have a very limited knowledge of what I do and don't know. And I certainly don't know anything about you accept the Northern Shaolin form clips that you posted a few year back....which to me looked like Wushu.

In other words, you talk the MMA talk but I haven't seen you walk the MMA walk.

FP

[MasterKiller]

What most people, especialy those in the clips, are doing is called hypothesizing which is a tentative theory about the natural world" OK. I'll buy that.

[Notintheface]

Sorry Fu Pow I am not that fast a poster. It takes me a while to type things up.

Quote Fu pow: What do you keep this ready to post around?

You're going to take the weakest examples and say that this is indicative of everyone and every style. That's totally illogical.

Actually, I was sent half of them from my former roommate and the rest I looked up on you tube in order to draw a comparison so as not to seem like i was picking on anyone style or teacher.

Are you saying that these people are the weakest examples of Kung fu? Can you provide better examples of Kung fu self defense? I have been looking at video of Ying ming yang the Chin-na guy, Kenpo videos, silat and many others and they all seem to showing the same kind of material. Not saying all of their techniques are ineffective but a majority of it I would say “Yes it is nonsense.”

Fu Pow
How many ways can build a house with the same materials? How many ways can you cook food with the same ingredients?

Well, argument wise this is comparing apples to oranges but I’ll make it fit. A poorly built home will not provide shelter for long and will crumble. Poorly cooked food would not be eaten unless it is the last resort. Even if you use the same ingredients in a dish one will prove to be tastier and the more effective combination. It is still apples and oranges but a poorly developed Martial Artist will be less effective than a properly prepared, blah,blah blah Martial artist/MMAer/fighter.

Fu pow
To ignore that diversity or shun it is to lose out

That is why you taste, test, observe, test, test, test, test and did I say test something till proven to be useful. This is the way you advance in anything. If not, you may be holding onto something that’s not worth a dam.

Fu pow
So don't try to make MMA about training for "self-defense", that may be a side benefit but the focus is always on competition and those competitions are used as the criteria for what is considered valid and what is not.

Techniques not used in MMA or certain venues like, neck cracks, two handed neck chokes, throws that drop people on their heads, using the point of the elbow, fish hooking, small joint/finger manipulation, or what ever does not mean they do not train them. Do you think so-called MMAers do not actually practice these things? You do understand that most MMAers go to several different schools and learn Muay Thai, Judo, Boxing, ect,ect right? You do understand that a majority of the people training with a MMA mindset will never see the cage or the ring but the percentage of them fighting full contact and testing their skill is greater than 90%.
This will prepare them more than anything I have seen in TMA, TCMA, or even BS MMA schools. If you just did slow roll and technique training grappling would be BS as well.

Fu pow
What I'm saying is there may be some techniques or approaches in TCMA that do not currently exist in the curricula and will help you win matches


I understand what you are saying but can you thus far provide an example?

Fu pow I'm not going to get into the ring vs street argument. That's not the point of this thread. Let's keep it in the ring for now.


The ring gives you one thing those videos and what you are implying do not. In the ring you get hit. Getting used to the notion of being hit and removing that shock fear effect that occurs when you get hit for the first time and your game plan goes out the window.

Fu Pow
I'm just saying that there are some UNIQUE aspects of TCMA in terms of strategy, technique and methodology that WILL find its way into MMA....eventually, despite resistance from its current adherents.


Unique…waiting for an example, plus if you understood MMA they are willing to take in anything that WORKS and will EXPECT it be PROVEN despite the RESISTANCE of those who SWEAR what they do is actually EFFECTIVE. (hehehe see I can do that too)

[Notintheface]

Fu pow
reject his argument because it sidesteps the point. We can keep adding styles to that list till we're blue in the face.

However, notice that none of them are Chinese. That whole knowledge base has been dismissed as "the same" or with "nothing new to offer" or hong kong phooey.


Oh, I see now, you are just mad because the Chinese arts are not given KUDOS. Until there is someone ,like Cung Lee, to give Kudos then you are without none. Cung lee is real and truthful about works for him and doesn't mix words. Plus, I would love to see someone with Shuai Jiao experience in the ring do some of those funky throws.

Master Killer
Chinese arts aren't typically "Combat Sports."

Combat sport or not they have created Shan Shou plus if the stories of the “Masters’ are true then they must have done some real fighting at some point in time. But like all methods of combat, you have to evolve with the times because it won’t wait to suit you.

Rocks>Spear>Bows>Guns>Missiles

A of these are projectiles but their effectiveness is defined by today’s standards. But they all have their effectiveness grounded in proof. Right now, at this moment, kung fu is lacking that proof of true effectiveness other wise we would be seeing it in the ring or somewhere. This is of course minus those who do test their skill against resistant opponents like San Shou and Shuai Jiao.

Mystic I'd never seen a spinning heel kick attempted in MMA nevermind done successfully (TWICE) until I saw Cung Le's fight with Fryklund.


Yeah but that was not a great fight or a test of Cung’s skills. I just found it odd that Fryk basically just stood there like he was baffeled but yeah Cung Lee is a good fighter I can’t wait to see him go against someone of a higher caliber.

[Ben Gash]

With shoulder strikes? Bull$hit.


OK, as A)I'm a CLF instructor and you're not, B )you've stated time and again that you weren't taught to fight with your CLF, whereas I most definitely was , YOU DON'T GET TO CALL BS ON WHAT I SAY ABOUT CLF!
WTF do you think a Biu Ma is, if not a shoulder and/or hip strike? What do you get if you do Sow Chui at point blank range? What happens if you do a Fun Sau in Ding Ji Ma? Duh, that's right, you hit them with your shoulder :rolleyes:

[Fu-Pow]

OK, as A)I'm a CLF instructor and you're not, B )you've stated time and again that you weren't taught to fight with your CLF, whereas I most definitely was , YOU DON'T GET TO CALL BS ON WHAT I SAY ABOUT CLF!
WTF do you think a Biu Ma is, if not a shoulder and/or hip strike? What do you get if you do Sow Chui at point blank range? What happens if you do a Fun Sau in Ding Ji Ma? Duh, that's right, you hit them with your shoulder :rolleyes:

A) I WAS a CLF instructor and I don't ever remember stating that I never learned to fight. What's your lineage again....Doc Fai Wong. Yeah good fighters from that branch. :rolleyes:

B) Your shoulder strike "technique" is total bull****. I challenge you to show me how that could work...even with compliant partner.

FP

[MysticNinjaJay]

NINJA PLEASE….. You made me spit juice out of my nose! I was so trying to be serious and you gone and made me lose my composure.

Why not? Iron Palm techniques are very similar to training methods in Muay Thai.

Btw, what is your take on Cung Le vs. Tony Fryklund?

[SevenStar]

Why isn't any Chinese martial art on that list? Despite your attempt to side step it, that's my point now isn't it.

because you guys aren't really competing mma - not enough to count it as part of mainstream mma curriculum. THAT is why you don't see chinese styles. Why in the hell would you throw them into a list of mma styles when only .001% of mma competitors train cma?

BTW, don't try to tell me that San Shou is a Chinese Martial Art...its a format.

mma is also a format. mma = striking and grappling. mma = the ruleset used for these striking and grappling venues. mma is a compilation of styles, but is not itself a style.

[Notintheface]

First things first, the only instance iron palm shares with Muay thai training is that the sandbag is a striking pad of sorts. Thai fighters do not want to injure the bone in the shin or in any part of their body. Fighters in Thailand would kick young banana trees, which are quite soft and give easily. Try to do this with a common oak tree down at the local park and you will easily develop stress fractures over time.

Now if you are referring to the iron palm secret internal strike or the way it generates power to break bricks, tiles, or concrete then no it wouldn't be useful, actually it would be no different then a well place punch.

Internal strike or Dim Mak has not been prove to exist in any contect and if you say other wise I have a nice bridge to sell you.

Power generation used in the strike may or may not be useful. The mechanics of throwing a strong punch in different than what I have seen being used on objects. The materials that are broken are not as pliable or yielding as the human body. A majority of the time, especially on the non-trick breaks, the person is injured. Plus I think the padding of the gloves would stop alot of the Iron Palmers skills or so I have been told:rolleyes:

The fight was odd.... it just seemed that Fryk was baffled as what to do with Cung Lee. Like the announcer said " He is picking him apart at will." Fryk was just throwing a few low kicks and some half hearted punches. It looked like Fryk was sparring with him and not fighting him but then again Cung lee hits hard, maybe Cung took his heart or something. By the by, I am not a Fryk fan but he did better in Anderson Silva vs Tony Fryklund match. Even though he got knocked out by a reverse elbow fought more than he did against Cung Lee. It was just a weird one sided fight. Oh and FYI I am soooo a Cung Lee fan, I LOVE his throws.

[SevenStar]

My point of bringing this up is that there are UNIQUE things from TCMA that can add to the knowledge base of MMA despite the claims of some on this board.


possibly. But mma guys are a show me group. Until The cma world competes mma and consistently demonstrates said uniqueness with effectiveness, the mma world will not even poot in tcma's direction. However, I am curious. What unique things are you referring to? we talked about the "superman punch", which I mentioned has been in muay thai. In yet another thread, the spinning back and crescent were brought up - and they both exist in muay thai as well.

I'm not saying there is nothing unique to cma, however. Please, show it to us - or at least explain it.

[SevenStar]

What I'm saying is there may be some techniques or approaches in TCMA that do not currently exist in the curricula and will help you win matches. To write that off or to say its all "equivalent" is just stupid.

1. show them to us.
2. remember that combat sport styles came from somewhere - generally combat oriented styles. For sport purposes, techniques were removed for various reasons - some because they were malicious in nature and would not mesh with a competitive environment, others because they simply did not work consistently in the the ring.

FYI, I agree with the concept of competition as part of training for self-defense. I'm just saying that there are some UNIQUE aspects of TCMA in terms of strategy, technique and methodology that WILL find its way into MMA....eventually, despite resistance from its current adherents.


resistance? we don't resist it, YOU HAVE YET TO SHOW IT TO US. MMA thrives on evolution. I guarantee you if you can show the mma crowd something that WORKS CONSISTENTLY, not just some technique that you say you have never seen in mma, then you will see mma guys start to adapt it. mma does not have a tornado kick, but until you start seeing people KOed by them in a fairly regular basis, they won't bother trying to learn it. Why should they? they already have a proven format that works. When that format is compromised by something, that is when they adapt and evolve.

[Mr Punch]

Technically only latin countries use Cilantro, in Europe and Asia we use Coriander, a virtually identical yet geneticalyy different herb.Pervert! I don't know anyone in my hyuuge circle of hubris eating friends who use coriander! Parsley? Yes. Honey? Occasionally. Paprika? Sometimes. Capers/Olives? Optional. Coarse black pepper? Essential...

but coriander? Save that for your Persian Aubergine Dip.

I'm sure if you looked hard enough in any style you could come up with a shoulder strike here or there.And you don't have to look very hard in many styles either:

there are obvious shoulder strikes in

kendo
wing chun
aikido/jutsu
sumo
wrestling
JJJ
capoeira

to mention but a few that I've seen/been taught first hand or have done myself.

I know this was a small part of the argument but it seems daft to claim any tech as exclusively TCMA. On the contrary I would say that almost every tech has a mirror somewhere else in the world and there is no reason to be ashamed of CMA techs for being the same.

Conversely, I do agree that the argument that 'if it worked it'd be in MMA' is daft. There are some techs that will come back into fashion, or have come back into fashion, as both standing and ground games evolve, and depending as always on the practitioner and his opponent. It's just that where that tech comes from is usually irrelevant to the MMAist as long as it works, and only relevant to the TCMAist who is worried about seeming legitimacy.

I very rarely defend wing chun or aikido, despite them being laughing stocks of MMAists and TCMAists alike (a point of commonality? Unite under WC! Unite under Hakama! :D ) because I don't care about how others see them. Aspects of them work and have worked very well for me in a variety of settings and that's all I care about... apart from personally making the most out of my training time.

[Notintheface]

Well the difference between you and Fu pow, as I am reading it, that you have your eyes open to what is effective and what isn't. Victor Belfort used some chain punch that could be considered very Wing Chunish to KTFO someone out.

Plus, hell, I love doing old weapons sets but I an not under the delusion that I can go be ****ing General Kwan. If you say you love doing Martial arts for the pure aesthetic pleasure of doing forms then so be it. Who am I to say anything about a person's hobbies? If you say **** my Kung fu works on multiple attackers armed with flaming *****s, I am gonna call BS. No one can beat more that two flaming *****s at one time!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StWbM1OOl74 (starts at min 1:06)

[MysticNinjaJay]

Now if you are referring to the iron palm secret internal strike or the way it generates power to break bricks, tiles, or concrete then no it wouldn't be useful, actually it would be no different then a well place punch.

By that logic a well placed punch is not useful.

Internal strike or Dim Mak has not been prove to exist in any contect and if you say other wise I have a nice bridge to sell you.

Have you seen National Geographic's Fight Science special? I'm not endorsing everything on there but there are experts who would disagree with you.


National Geographic: Fight Science - Hard body training (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nmoCTo513M)

National Geographic: Fight Science - Dim Mak (sound is out of synch) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjhRG6QhWgQ)

Power generation used in the strike may or may not be useful. The mechanics of throwing a strong punch in different than what I have seen being used on objects. The materials that are broken are not as pliable or yielding as the human body. A majority of the time, especially on the non-trick breaks, the person is injured. Plus I think the padding of the gloves would stop alot of the Iron Palmers skills or so I have been told:rolleyes:

The technique I had in mind was a palm strike (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSmMyHV-LmA).

Keith Hackney floored a 600lb Emmanuel Yarborough at UFC 3. His technique was not as smooth as the one in the video above (some have described it as a flailing b*tch slap) but it landed with alot of force.


I'm not saying that the technique would take the place of a good punch but if done properly may prove effective. I doubt that the MMA glove would interfere with the power of a palm strike.



The fight was odd.... it just seemed that Fryk was baffled as what to do with Cung Lee. Like the announcer said " He is picking him apart at will." Fryk was just throwing a few low kicks and some half hearted punches. It looked like Fryk was sparring with him and not fighting him but then again Cung lee hits hard, maybe Cung took his heart or something.

Cung was throwing some deadly kicks from mid range which made it very difficult for Fryklund to get inside. He tried closing the distance several times with Superman/Cobra punches and managed a few flurries with Cung against the cage late in the fight, but he did seem a bit puzzled throughout the fight plus, though he tried to hide it the body blows were agonizing.

I think he should have tried commiting to his takedowns. He went for atleast 2 high shoots that Cung easily evaded. I've heard that he lost focus of the gameplan his corner directed him to pursue.



By the by, I am not a Fryk fan but he did better in Anderson Silva vs Tony Fryklund match. Even though he got knocked out by a reverse elbow fought more than he did against Cung Lee.

Fryklund got beat in the fight standing as well, but he seemed to fight pretty actively from the clinch. He did alot better than Rich Franklin did against Anderson Silva in the same situation.


It was just a weird one sided fight. Oh and FYI I am soooo a Cung Lee fan, I LOVE his throws.

He has excellent throws though I doubt we will see much of them in his MMA fights since he aims to keep the fights standing. He performed a beautiful hip toss against Brian Warren in their MMA match.

That may be his counter to someone who forces the clinch, looking for a takedown. If he is going to go to the ground it is better he ends up on top. Thats the idea he seemed to be going with.

[Fu-Pow]

because you guys aren't really competing mma - not enough to count it as part of mainstream mma curriculum. THAT is why you don't see chinese styles. Why in the hell would you throw them into a list of mma styles when only .001% of mma competitors train cma?

Fair enough.


mma is also a format. mma = striking and grappling. mma = the ruleset used for these striking and grappling venues. mma is a compilation of styles, but is not itself a style.

Well, which is it? MMA seems to skate out of any discussion/criticism because it seems to defy definition. It can mean anything to anyone at any time so apparently can't really say anything about it all....for or against. It becomes a meaningless term.

[Fu-Pow]

possibly. But mma guys are a show me group. Until The cma world competes mma and consistently demonstrates said uniqueness with effectiveness, the mma world will not even poot in tcma's direction. However, I am curious. What unique things are you referring to? we talked about the "superman punch", which I mentioned has been in muay thai. In yet another thread, the spinning back and crescent were brought up - and they both exist in muay thai as well.

I'm not saying there is nothing unique to cma, however. Please, show it to us - or at least explain it.

When I have tried to explain I have met with:

a) MMA already has that.

b) It useless or MMA would already have that.


FP

[Fu-Pow]

1. show them to us.
2. remember that combat sport styles came from somewhere - generally combat oriented styles. For sport purposes, techniques were removed for various reasons - some because they were malicious in nature and would not mesh with a competitive environment, others because they simply did not work consistently in the the ring.



resistance? we don't resist it, YOU HAVE YET TO SHOW IT TO US. MMA thrives on evolution. I guarantee you if you can show the mma crowd something that WORKS CONSISTENTLY, not just some technique that you say you have never seen in mma, then you will see mma guys start to adapt it. mma does not have a tornado kick, but until you start seeing people KOed by them in a fairly regular basis, they won't bother trying to learn it. Why should they? they already have a proven format that works. When that format is compromised by something, that is when they adapt and evolve.

Its not just techniques. Its the way that the techniques are executed. Its a qualitative difference. In this respect the "internal" arts have something unique to offer.

I wish I was at the level where I could demonstrate what I'm talking about, but honestly I'm not. I've only seriously delved into my Taiji in the last year having practiced it for 10 +. I haven't developed those qualities to the level to be able to demonstrate them consistently but I am beginning to and the whole approach is different.

When you do a shoulder strike in Taiji and you really know how to do it. You can knock someone clear across the room. When you understand "short energy" in Taiji you can fold your opponent in half with a quick pulse. Its actually scary.

It seems mystical but its not. I think all of this can be applied in any format. Its unique and different but again it is a qualitative difference and hard for me to quantify for you.

I'm not talking about flashy techniques, I'm not talking about forms, I'm talking about different Jings or skill/energy. Different things that you can do with your body that your opponent is not going to expect.

Its very practical and down to earth. It conserves energy. That's why I'm not understanding the resistance to it. Maybe its too hard to learn?

FP

[Ben Gash]

You're on some seriously thin ice Fu Pow, not to mention suffering from selective memory loss :rolleyes: You've been a complete a$$ the past few weeks, what's up? Move stressful?
I fought Sanda and sub wrestling (and I'm thinking about returning to San Da next year), my contemporaries fight/fought Kuoshu and my juniors fight Kyokushin, how much more of a fighting club do you want?
Techniques working? Ross shows Sow Chui with the shoulder on one of his DVDs (Punching and Clinching or Combat Sports Camp vol2, I can't remember), and Biu Ma as a hip and/or shoulder strike is done by pretty much EVERY competitive Judo, Ju Jitsu, Sambo and wrestling guy on the planet :rolleyes:

[Fu-Pow]

You're on some seriously thin ice Fu Pow, not to mention suffering from selective memory loss :rolleyes: You've been a complete a$$ the past few weeks, what's up? Move stressful?

You're the one that starts insulting me and I'm the ass. Ok, whatever.


I fought Sanda and sub wrestling (and I'm thinking about returning to San Da next year), my contemporaries fight/fought Kuoshu and my juniors fight Kyokushin, how much more of a fighting club do you want?

Great.


Techniques working? Ross shows Sow Chui with the shoulder on one of his DVDs (Punching and Clinching or Combat Sports Camp vol2, I can't remember), and Biu Ma as a hip and/or shoulder strike is done by pretty much EVERY competitive Judo, Ju Jitsu, Sambo and wrestling guy on the planet :rolleyes:

Ok let's see video, since that seems to be the gold standard here. We're probably not even talking about the same thing.

FP

[Fu-Pow]

Nice Taiji shoulder stroke at 00:27.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BBXOmYo6fE&mode=related&search=

[Ben Gash]

I started throwing insults????:confused::confused::confused:
See, sign of stress, feeling attacked and insulted by anyone disagreeing with you.
I disagreed with technical points you've made, you started swearing, making allusions about my teacher and the quality of my kung fu, and accusing me of training unrealistic techniques :rolleyes:

[golden arhat]

this argument is irrevalent. everyone knows kung fu is to deadly for the cage.

yeah well we'll see what u say when u get punched in the face by fedor

stop trying to console yourself

[n00854180t]

yeah well we'll see what u say when u get punched in the face by fedor

stop trying to console yourself

I think he might have been being sarcastic. *n00854180t performs the Five-Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique on Golden Arhat.*

Seriously though, it seems to me that if CMA is such pointless tripe, perhaps people shouldn't be frequenting the Kung Fu Magazine forums? (And while I realize it's not *only* CMA, and this is the MMA forum, it is *primarily* CMA).


Bleh! Annoying thread.

[MysticNinjaJay]

Now if you are referring to the iron palm secret internal strike or the way it generates power to break bricks, tiles, or concrete then no it wouldn't be useful....Internal strike or Dim Mak has not been prove to exist in any contect and if you say other wise I have a nice bridge to sell you.

Have you seen National Geographic's Fight Science special? I'm not endorsing everything on there but there are experts who would disagree with you.


National Geographic: Fight Science - Hard body training (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nmoCTo513M)

National Geographic: Fight Science - Dim Mak (sound is out of synch) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjhRG6QhWgQ)


Here is an alternate link to the Dim mak, with the sound in synch. Don't ask me why it has crappy alternative commentary. :confused:


National Geographic: Fight Science - Dim Mak (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX-r738wJfE)

[gwa sow]

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwa sow
this argument is irrevalent. everyone knows kung fu is to deadly for the cage.

yeah well we'll see what u say when u get punched in the face by fedor

stop trying to console yourself

yea, like i run into him all the time
dude that was a joke. just like this whole thing is, whatever babble he's preaching about. whatever he says about tai chi can be found in choy lay fut if he could have looked into it better.

[Knifefighter]

I wish I was at the level where I could demonstrate what I'm talking about, but honestly I'm not. I've only seriously delved into my Taiji in the last year having practiced it for 10 +. I haven't developed those qualities to the level to be able to demonstrate them consistently but I am beginning to and the whole approach is different.

When you do a shoulder strike in Taiji and you really know how to do it. You can knock someone clear across the room. When you understand "short energy" in Taiji you can fold your opponent in half with a quick pulse. Its actually scary.

You've been doing this stuff for 10+ years, with the last year done quite seriously and you still can't make it work consistently?

Somebody has been drinking too much of the Kool-Aide.

[Notintheface]

By that logic a well placed punch is not useful.

What I was trying get at, not successfully, is that punching power and iron palm striking power = same

Mystic
Have you seen National Geographic's Fight Science special? I'm not endorsing everything on there but there are experts who would disagree with you.
National Geographic: Fight Science - Hard body training
National Geographic: Fight Science - Dim Mak (sound is out of synch)


I hate to burst your bubble mystic but that is far from actual scientific testing. It has a sensational bend to it.

First off, they are comparing the blows of a striker to that of an individual using an object to strike the dummy. Do these individuals know how to properly generate power similar to the ninja dude? Maybe they should of had someone with a baseball background swing the bat? What would that study have been like if the hammer fisting dude hit and then a boxer followed suit striking the dummy in the chest. Or better yet, field test the technique by having the ninja strike the dummy while suspended so that it swayed. It is easy to damage a person when they are at rest and do not move. That is the problem with a lot of the TCMA techniques. They only work under the most optimal conditions and perfectly set up settings. You hit a person with a hammer fist like that and they are one gone move, sway, twist or fold their body to absorb impact. That Fajing type energy can be produced by anyone. Teach it it a stronger person and the output damage is greater but try to apply it in an actual fight and the damage output usually gets negated.

Now if they have several test parameters like having the dim mak guy hit with a certain blow, then a regular person copy that blow, then a boxer, and finally a strong man that knew how to hit. Once all of these people have been gauge, you could put the strikes into proper contexts.

The things with the plum blossom type post could easily get the same result if you tested someone who does high wire training, a Pakour runner, high rise steel beam welder or even a balance beam gymnast.

As for the brick breakers, It is a very cool feat but certain things in that study is not mentioned nor taken into account.


1) First, all the power is generated in a downward moment and full body weight behind it. They would be unable to generate the same power throwing a vertical punch.

2) Like they said, it is a one shot deal that has to be set up perfectly

3) I didn't hear them discuss the structural design importance of the spacers.

4) There are Power hour guys that do the same thing these breakers do and they are untrained but **** me they do it with FAITH power.

5) Well, to answer question MMA wise, it is not possible to generate that kind of power in a downward motion when a resisting opponent is underneath you unless they are motionless. The breaker's muscle stabilizer, if that is what they are called, are in a constant state of flux. They are also on their knees which limits their mechanical power generation because they are unable to generate the torque needed from foot>ankle>hips ect ect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSmMyHV-LmA

Can deliver a lot of ****ing power. I have seen people get flashed knocked out with an open hand palm to the jaw. But the power generated by breakers downward strike is completely different from what you are now suggesting.

But truth be told, I have never seen anyone get knocked out or injured by a standing palm, strike. I have seen people get knocked out by an open hand strike while they being GNP. That has to do with the concussive force bouncing a person's head of the mat. They have all been flash knock outs. But don't take my word for any of this stuff, go out and test it for yourself.

The effectiveness of the palm has to now be weighed vs the punch. The only problem I see using the palm more often than the punch would be possible stress damage over time. the way they both absorb and redistribute stress impact. But like the videos, a real scientific inquiry would be the only way to test that.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIPWWqvpKb4 (Keith Hackney fight)

He did a palm heel strike to Yarr and caused a flash ko or just dizzied him.

I'm not saying that the technique would take the place of a good punch but if done properly may prove effective. I doubt that the MMA glove would interfere with the power of a palm strike.


I can agree with you that it could be effective but as far as the padding goes you may be right of course that is depending on how you strike using the palm. IF you do a dam willow palm I would say no way.

[Knifefighter]

Nice Taiji shoulder stroke at 00:27.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BBXOmYo6fE&mode=related&search=

That demo is with a partner who is not only complying, but also jumping back.

LOL @ that "shoulder strike". Want to learn how to shoulder strike and be about 10 times as effective as the junk shown on that clip? Just play a year or two of football.

[Knifefighter]

But truth be told, I have never seen anyone get knocked out or injured by a standing palm, strike. I have seen people get knocked out by an open hand strike while they being GNP. That has to do with the concussive force bouncing a person's head of the mat. They have all been flash knock outs. But don't take my word for any of this stuff, go out and test it for yourself.

I have seen a MMA fighter get KO'ed with a palm strike.

That being said, closed fist does much more damage than open palm.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Most of the people I know that train the palm strike, don't do it enough compared to the fist strike, to make it more effective.

Fists cause more superficial damage than the palm, though concussive force would be greater IF the person trained the the palm like the do the fist.
Unfortunatly, as pancrase showed us, most end up "*****slapping" the palm and not really "punching with the palm".

As for breaks, you really need to do them as close to the "real thing" as you can.
In case of a downward strike, you need to strike an unsupported brick.
In case of a "standing" strike, you need to strike a slab or brick standing by its own inertia.

[Knifefighter]

I reject his argument because it sidesteps the point. We can keep adding styles to that list till we're blue in the face.

However, notice that none of them are Chinese. That whole knowledge base has been dismissed as "the same" or with "nothing new to offer" or hong kong phooey.

My point of bringing this up is that there are UNIQUE things from TCMA that can add to the knowledge base of MMA despite the claims of some on this board.

I reject the equivalence argument and the not important argument.

MMA fighters take the majority of theirtechniques from systems developed in Brazil, Japan, the U.S., Thailand, and Russia. Someone didn't arbitrarily decide these were the techniques and systems to be used. They are used because that is what works in the MMA environment. However, most MMA people don't care where something comes from, as long as it works.

[Black Jack II]

Palm strikes can have wicked power if used with the right setup and forward drive, I posted a vid awhile back of a standing powerslap street ko that was on the money, and as for the closed fist does more damage than a palm heel, where do you get that data from??

I am not saying I am giving up my boxing skills any time soon but to degrade the open hand just because of a one linear I don't get.

Below is an example of one of the methods on how I train my power slaps, in world war two they had the nickname of jap slappin, a lot of power.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZacZ-_-fQ4

[Notintheface]

Someone please school this guy on basic body mechanics and power generation.

Fu pow
You can knock someone clear across the room. When you understand "short energy" in Taiji you can fold your opponent in half with a quick pulse. Its actually scary.

Fahjing is not hard to display, especially short energy, but knocking a person clear across the room. GoD DAM boy, stop watching Taichi master.


Fupow
Its unique and different but again it is a qualitative difference and hard for me to quantify for you.


Will someone please explain to Fu pow the way he is using qualitative incorrectly.
He is is trying to express a phenomenon measured in kind, that is, non-numerical units. For example, color is a qualitative variable, because it cannot be expressed simply as a number.

What he should be using is called quantitative variable: phenomenon measured in amounts, that is, numerical units. For example, length is a quantitative variable.

But a shoulder strike, Fahjing of any kind, is measured by output of force as well as it being dictated by body mechanics. (See quote below from Fu pow to demonstrate power output)

Fu pow
When you do a shoulder strike in Taiji and you really know how to do it. You can knock someone clear across the room. When you understand "short energy" in Taiji you can fold your opponent in half with a quick pulse. Its actually scary.
qualitative variable

The shoulder strike or any blow would be measured through quantitative analysis.
As in, the numerical representation and manipulation of observations for the purpose of describing and explaining the phenomena that those observations reflect.

[Knifefighter]

Palm strike can have wicked power if used with the right setup and forward drive, I posted a vid awhile back of a standing powerslap street ko that was on the money, and as for the closed fist does more damage than a palm heel, where do you get that data from??

In the context of what enviroment...mma, self defense studies??

As I said, I saw a fighter get KO'ed by a one strike palm hit. I'm not saying you can't develop power under ideal circumstances.

However...

I've fought both ways. Overall, closed fist does more damage.

Biomechanically, closed fist is a more efficient way to deliver strikes.

[Fu-Pow]

That demo is with a partner who is not only complying, but also jumping back.

No.


LOL @ that "shoulder strike". Want to learn how to shoulder strike and be about 10 times as effective as the junk shown on that clip? Just play a year or two of football.

Not the same thing.

[Fu-Pow]

I started throwing insults????:confused::confused::confused:

Started trying to downgrade my involvement in CLF and pull rank on me. That's called argumentum ad hominem, look it up. I never insulted you personally (until you did the same) I insulted your argument. There's a difference.


See, sign of stress, feeling attacked and insulted by anyone disagreeing with you.
I disagreed with technical points you've made, you started swearing, making allusions about my teacher and the quality of my kung fu, and accusing me of training unrealistic techniques :rolleyes:

Leave the arm chair psychology at home.

Like I said, you started it. Seems like you've had it in for me on this and other parts of the forum ever since I critiqued CLF in the Southern Forum.

[Fu-Pow]

You've been doing this stuff for 10+ years, with the last year done quite seriously and you still can't make it work consistently?

Not "make it work." Not able to embody the true qualitative difference in Taiji movement as well as my teacher.

Somebody has been drinking too much of the Kool-Aide.

I don't even like Kool-ade.

[Knifefighter]

No.

If you think that is not jumping back, you are clueless. You need to mix it up with some real grapplers to see what really happens when one gets "pushed".

[LeeCasebolt]

I wish I was at the level where I could demonstrate what I'm talking about, but honestly I'm not.

That's why I'm not understanding the resistance to it.

FP

The first sentence answers the second. When MMA proponents make an assertion, they (as a rule) back it up with personal demonstration or video footage from a competitive format. When tai chi proponents make an assertion, they (as a rule) ascribe capabilities to others rather than themselves, decline to demonstrate live, and are unable or unwilling to provide competitive video documentation.

My question is, why should an MMA practitioner believe you?

[Knifefighter]

Below is an example of one of the methods on how I train my power slaps, in world war two they had the nickname of jap slappin, a lot of power.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZacZ-_-fQ4

Do that same strike with a closed fist and you will multiply the damage done.

You can easily prove this. Turn your back and have your training partner do that open hand strike into your upper back. Then do the same thing with him using a closed fist. I think it will be pretty apparent which of those you would be able to take more of.

[Black Jack II]

I've fought both ways. Overall, closed fist does more damage.

The fist sure does tell a story, I believe the power punches in boxing are some of the most effective hand to hand blows of any system on Earth but I keep a number of open hand blows that I really believe are very effective.

Basically powerslaps from the fence, open hand face smash, chinjab, web of hand blow, shuto, and a Sweeny Kempo circular whipping palm.

As for doing that strike with a closed fist, yeah I know it hurts like a *****, but it does not generate the same overall blanket effect I am looking for in regard to the powerslap, to be fair latter this week I will go back and work it out some more.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The fist sure does tell a story, I believe the power punches in boxing are some of the most effective hand to hand blows of any system on Earth but I keep a number of open hand blows that I really believe are very effective.

Basically powerslaps from the fence, open hand face smash, chinjab, web of hand blow, shuto, and a Sweeny Kempo circular whipping palm.

As for doing that strike with a closed fist, yeah I know it hurts like a *****, but it does not generate the same overall blanket effect I am looking for in regard to the powerslap, to be fair latter this week I will go back and work it out some more.

The fact that you say "slap" shows what you have been exposed to.
Empty handed fist hook VS someone's skull
Circular Plam strike VS the same area.

Need more proof besides comparing the anatomical weakness of both?

Try punching a concrete slap ( yes, a REAL one), and then try palm striking it.

Have a makiwara?
Drill it as hard as you can with your fist, then your palm.

Thing is, very few people train the open hand like they do the closed fist.

Wanna see the power of the open hand?
Visit a bagua fighter ( notice I said fighter).

A closed fist well cause more superficial pain and damage - bone on bone does that, even bone on muscle.

Now, you can always be a real freak and put on a crash helmet and have someone drill you with a closed fist and then a palm and see the difference, and they you MUST try to do it yourself too, remember, bare knuckle.

[sanjuro_ronin]

FYI, there is a shoulder strike in kenjutsu, pretty much most systems have it, Musashi eludes to it in his book, called the "body strike".

[Fu-Pow]

The first sentence answers the second. When MMA proponents make an assertion, they (as a rule) back it up with personal demonstration or video footage from a competitive format.

Hardly ever. They often demonstrate professional fighters demonstrating a technique. It is no indication that they can pull it off only that SOMEONE can pull it off. Maybe that person is a savant?

My Taiji teacher can pull off all kinds of stuff that I can't, he's a professional. He trains umpteen hours/day. So what? It doesn't say anything about what I can do.


When tai chi proponents make an assertion, they (as a rule) ascribe capabilities to others rather than themselves, decline to demonstrate live, and are unable or unwilling to provide competitive video documentation.

My question is, why should an MMA practitioner believe you?

I'd say that's just as true for most MMA adherents.

The only MMA adherent on this board I've seen post a video is Knifefighter so I know he at least half-way knows what he's talking about.

[Fu-Pow]

FYI, there is a shoulder strike in kenjutsu, pretty much most systems have it, Musashi eludes to it in his book, called the "body strike".

Other styles have them...in Taiji its a specialty which is what I originally said (despite those trying to put words on the page for me). Its also a specialty of other styles like Baji.

Why never see them in MMA? And yes, I will want to see a video.

FP

[Black Jack II]

The fact that you say "slap" shows what you have been exposed to.

Don't go mistaking the use of a term on the internet as a indication of what a person has or has not been exposed to and for the record I used the word powerslap.

I could of gone with any number of terms I have learned the technique under, tapak gampar in silat, hampak in kali, shotei uchi in jujitsu, cupped hand blow and jap slappin are others.

Plus if you went into my garage you would find a nice old bike helmet wrapped in gray tape sitting by a Meade Telescope.;)

Cupped hand blows are a excellent gross motor based tool if applied with forward drive and power that use a natural arc of the body for damage. I consider it a major counter-offensive tool that is easy to learn and ramps up well on the teaching time for new students.

Plus why go see a bagua fighter when you can go visit a silat player or panatuken maestro who also use the heavy hand.:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Don't go mistaking the use of a term on the internet as a indication of what a person has or has not been exposed to and for the record I used the word powerslap.

I could of gone with any number of terms I have learned the technique under, tapak gampar in silat, hampak in kali, shotei uchi in jujitsu, cupped hand blow and jap slappin are others.

Plus if you went into my garage you would find a nice old bike helmet wrapped in gray tape sitting by a Meade Telescope.;)

Cupped hand blows are a excellent gross motor based tool if applied with forward drive and power that use a natural arc of the body for damage. I consider it a major counter-offensive tool that is easy to learn and ramps up well on the teaching time for new students.

Plus why go see a bagua fighter when you can go visit a silat player or panatuken maestro who also use the heavy hand.:)

Oh, I like the way you think ;)
You should plam strike "like" you punch and just as you don't "slap punch" you don't slap palm strike.
Look at the bio-mechanical motion of a slap VS let's say a hammer fist with the same elbow postioning ( those in the know will know why I mention the elbow).
People think "slap" when the strike they will slap and not get the power they want/need.

Do that simple test with anyone, have them slap a focus mitt and have then hit it with a hammerfist.

[Black Jack II]

You mean psychological, yeah I can see people using terms to confuse a techniques direction.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You mean psychological, yeah I can see people using terms to confuse a techniques direction.

Not just direction, tell someone to slap and that is what you get.
If you look at a hammer fist coming from the outside in, you wil see the elbow being the same as the elbow when doing a inward palm slap or strike, but the power of the impact will usually be different, more on the hammerfist than on the open hand strike, samethign happens with a knifehand.
Why?
Closed fist = more power in the minds of the people.

[Ben Gash]

No, you were moderately offensive before that point. Anyway, I have a right to assert authority in this instance, due to my greater experience, especially with regards to the issues discussed here, this being the point of that post :rolleyes:

[Ben Gash]

On the topic of the video, it's a fairly standard app of a lifting forearm type strike, and I've seen that specific app in Baji, 8 step mantis, Xingyi and Ziranmen.

[Fu-Pow]

No, you were moderately offensive before that point.

Ok.


Anyway, I have a right to assert authority in this instance, due to my greater experience, especially with regards to the issues discussed here, this being the point of that post :rolleyes:

No, you only think you do.

FP

[Knifefighter]

My Taiji teacher can pull off all kinds of stuff that I can't, he's a professional. He trains umpteen hours/day. So what? It doesn't say anything about what I can do.

The problem with using teachers as an example is that they are almost always either doing these techniques on their students or on some clueless newbie who is just visiting to check things out. Students rarely go hard against their instructor and usually just stand there and let him do the technique, while people visiting are usually just beginners checking the school out.

The only way to know whether or not your instructor really can pull that stuff of is if you are seeing him in competitions against skilled opponents or if he is visiting other training facilities and going live against skilled oppoents from there.

[Black Jack II]

The only way to know whether or not your instructor really can pull that stuff of is if you are seeing him in competitions against skilled opponents or if he is visiting other training facilities and going live against skilled oppoents from there.

Knife, I think you could add a instructor who actually trains against the students in the same situations. It's harder to find but if he is going alive and tossing the ego out the door, then I think that might fit your bill.

[Knifefighter]

Knife, I think you could add a instructor who actually trains against the students in the same situations. It's harder to find but if he is going alive and tossing the ego out the door, then I think that might fit your bill.

By definition, most students are not as good as their instructor and he might be able to pull off all kinds of things against his students that he couldn't pull off against other skilled opponents.

[Fu-Pow]

If you think that is not jumping back, you are clueless.

If I (a) think that is not jumping back then (b) I am clueless. Sorry, I don't see how logically one follows the other.

To me that doesn't look like jumping back. I've seen plenty of clips on here where its blatant the guy is jumping back. To me this just looks like good understanding of internal.

Perhaps you are confused as to what you are seeing because there is no perceived exertion. That's just how internal looks. You try to push on someone using muscle power its like trying to push a big greasy ballbearing and you just kind of slide off. Maybe that looks fake to you?

I've been on the receiving end of a Taiji shoulder strike. If it was done with any force I would have been knocked on my ass or maybe knocked out. That's proof enough for me.

What I've yet to see is ANY video of a grappler executing a shoulder strike. I mean if its that common then I would have expected to see someone post something by now.

FP

[Fu-Pow]

The problem with using teachers as an example is that they are almost always either doing these techniques on their students or on some clueless newbie who is just visiting to check things out. Students rarely go hard against their instructor and usually just stand there and let him do the technique, while people visiting are usually just beginners checking the school out.

The only way to know whether or not your instructor really can pull that stuff of is if you are seeing him in competitions against skilled opponents or if he is visiting other training facilities and going live against skilled oppoents from there.

So you are saying that validity of a technique/approach/strategy is determined solely by its application in some kind of NHB competition against another equally skilled opponent?

If you're going to go there then I think you should take it one step ****her or risk being inconsistent.

The only truth claim that can be made about the aformentioned is its PERSONAL effectiveness in said competition.

Therefore, if you have not or do not compete in said event then you have no basis to make any claim about ANY of the aformentioned....in terms of MMA or otherwise.

There is no guarantee that what works for one person will work for another. There are too many other variables from person to person.

(As an aside: What's funny to me is the people (and you know who I'm talking about) who have picked up the MMA banner but have never competed in a MMA event. What business do you have teaching?)

..............
Personally, that would make things a bit too narrow for me. I'm willing to entertain and absorb information from various sources (meeting that criteria or not), synthesize it and make it my own. I feel that I have a sufficient enough background at least to separate the total charlatans from people that have something to teach.

If I think someone has a skillset that I don't possess then I will hang around until I understand it and can incorporate it into what I do. I started in Hung Ga, then went to CLF, now my focus is on Chen Taiji, in the future I would like to learn BJJ because to date I haven't learned anything significant about groundfighting (other than how not to go there).

EDIT: Forgot I learned some Western Boxing in there too.

Sport competition for me is a way to check things out and make sure that I am on the right path, as well as being challenging and sometimes fun. I would like to do more of it.

However, I don't take it as the be all and end all.


Cheers

FP

[sanjuro_ronin]

On the surface you are quite right.

In SPECIFIC, what we do is all that matters, what someone else can do is irrelevant.
In the systems I have studied I have seen people able to "pull it off" in a full contact enviroment, both sport and street.

Now, in GENERAL, what you have to remember is that sport combat systems focus on the techniques that have been prove to work, reguarly, consistently and by everyone.
Arm Bars, round kicks, RNC, boxing like punches, knees, elbows, etc, etc.

Sport combat focuses on what works within their given enviroment and as such the simple fact that technique A works over and over and over regardless of who does it, means that even if I have'nt had a chance to "do it" yet, it probably will.

And the probablity factor is far greater than say something that is NOT being tested on a regular basis.

[Shaolin Wookie]

So you are saying that validity of a technique/approach/strategy is determined solely by its application in some kind of NHB competition against another equally skilled opponent?

If you're going to go there then I think you should take it one step ****her or risk being inconsistent.

The only truth claim that can be made about the aformentioned is its PERSONAL effectiveness in said competition.

Therefore, if you have not or do not compete in said event then you have no basis to make any claim about ANY of the aformentioned....in terms of MMA or otherwise.

There is no guarantee that what works for one person will work for another. There are too many other variables from person to person.

(As an aside: What's funny to me is the people (and you know who I'm talking about) who have picked up the MMA banner but have never competed in a MMA event. What business do you have teaching?)

..............
Personally, that would make things a bit too narrow for me. I'm willing to entertain and absorb information from various sources (meeting that criteria or not), synthesize it and make it my own. I feel that I have a sufficient enough background at least to separate the total charlatans from people that have something to teach.

If I think someone has a skillset that I don't possess then I will hang around until I understand it and can incorporate it into what I do. I started in Hung Ga, then went to CLF, now my focus is on Chen Taiji, in the future I would like to learn BJJ because to date I haven't learned anything significant about groundfighting (other than how not to go there).

Sport competition for me is a way to check things out and make sure that I am on the right path, as well as being challenging and sometimes fun. I would like to do more of it.

However, I don't take it as the be all and end all.


Cheers

FP

Check out this thread, check out the vids:

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46925

NHB fights in Brazil. Very different from MMA. Notice the head stomps to the guy on the ground.....hahaha.....:D

[Merryprankster]

Ooooo!!! I fought an an MMA event once! Even posted video of it on here many moons ago!

Pick me, pick me!

[Knifefighter]

What I've yet to see is ANY video of a grappler executing a shoulder strike. I mean if its that common then I would have expected to see someone post something by now.

Grapplers don't use shoulder strikes because, at most, all that would do would push the opponent away. Grapplers want to control and finish the opponent, not push him away.

[Knifefighter]

So you are saying that validity of a technique/approach/strategy is determined solely by its application in some kind of NHB competition against another equally skilled opponent?

To some degree that is true. It acts as quality control...

So that when you have students thinking their instructor can pull of unworkable techniques like this:
http://www.kungfurock.com/2006/11/27/daitouryu-aikido-master-yanagiryuken/

Quality control steps in to show what would really happen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxb0PCBV0vk

[Notintheface]

Knife fighter,


Dude, it is just not worth it anymore. Fu Pow is one of those people who, no matter what evidence or logic is put before him, will refuse to see the forest for the trees. HE has moved from Hung gar, to CLF, to Tai Chi. These moves should tell you a lot about him when combined with his personality.

(Note: I am not putting down these systems as I am sure they are fine and upstanding examples of the CMA)

He has moved from the very aggressive styles of CLF and Hung gar to the so-called "Internal" arts. With Tai chi being one of the internal arts that has been water down to geriatric water ballet speaks volumes of Fu pow's intent. ( I am sure there is some combat Tai chi out there some where and push hands is not combat)

He is looking for that elusive super inner power, in order to compensate for lack of any real skill, strength, or technique. When he is unable to make his techniques work consistently he will blame himself because "the flower has not bloom in his minds eye yet" It is never the system because his master's, master's, sister-in-law's lil brother was able to kill 10 men with it and smash a bolder with his ***** 300 years ago. Fu pow is the perfect example of the students who keep Mc dojos open. Kudos

[n00854180t]

Knifefighter, NITF, do you admit though that there are a few (very very few, I actually think the only one that was decent was the Russian (I think) match between the aikido guy and a muay thai fighter, and both seemed not to be "elite") videos that actually show some decent aikido? You always seem to post examples of crappy YouTube videos which seem to show complete novices failing against somewhat trained grapplers. Or on the other end you have these obviously phony people trying to do "chi blasts" and the like, and seem to be asserting that all kung fu is of this nature? I went through most of the videos on there last night and was unable to find anything I'd call worthy of a comparison whatever, be it TKD, karate, kung fu or MMA for that matter. Most just seem to be very untrained people goofing off, or one sided fights between an untrained X and someone twice their size that has some form of grappling experience.

Alls I'm saying is, YouTube seems like it is definitely not representative of *any* martial arts.

[Knifefighter]

I actually think the only one that was decent was the Russian (I think) match between the aikido guy and a muay thai fighter, and both seemed not to be "elite").

That match was a demonstration. It was not real.

[Knifefighter]

Knifefighter, NITF, do you admit though that there are a few videos that actually show some decent aikido? .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dA0XACGbYck
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dA0XACGbYck
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1T3ZG_JqqY&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k12CdLuH9mM&mode=related&search=

[Knifefighter]

Alls I'm saying is, YouTube seems like it is definitely not representative of *any* martial arts.

BJJ:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ciYtazMQE4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjK0g-cDJI4&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFCwdBEOS1Q&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdrf8u-fHos&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHUXUW2i8PA


Kyokushin Karate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJ7fcFiZa7g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD5FQIN-hFo&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FB8hPmsg28&mode=related&search=


Judo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I4bVSP2ReM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Yqmw59aAbI


Sambo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hy2bgOF2w8A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbDZG90gx6o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cVNePkdRCs

[Notintheface]

n00854180t's

n0,


The youtube stuff I put up was examples of average people. I did this because someone said "The best way to tell if an art works is not by the pros but when demonstrated by the average student." I think it was Fu pow but don't quote me on that. I posted on the empiric thread children, adults, all were average people putting on a show in local tournaments, in schools and in fun sparring sessions. No one was trying to knock each other out but they were tying to use what works.

I you want me to pull out the elite as an example, which fu pow thing is not indicative of the styles effectiveness or average students skill, I can easily do so for Judo, Shuai Jiao, MT,BJJ, Sambo,Savate, Boxing, San Da and many other styles. These style pro port to fight a certain way and what they say they do. They make no excuses or make outlandish claims. If you ask a typical or pro TCMA to do the same you will not receive direct evidence of effectiveness. Pro TCMA. excluding Shuai Jiao and Sand da, does not look like what is taught in the forms or with their drills. I am not saying you have look like the movies but do not do kickboxing then call it kung fu. Do not make outlandish claims like Fu pow and then say oh its "possible" but you are not seeing with your eyes o you have to feel it when my sifu touches hands with you. I have touched hands with so-called chi-master and people who "specialize in Fah jing power" only to get excuses when they are unable to reproduce what they can do on a willing student.

This is not only prevalent in the TCMA but in most TMA. I have heard things like "Well if he shoots in i'll kick him in the face, drop into a ma bu, my root is to strong to be taken down, eagel claw him behind the neck, I'll use dim mak stike special # 32" and the list goes on and on.



Alls I'm saying is, YouTube seems like it is definitely not representative of *any* martial arts.

It is representative of martial arts. All the average everyday people who use the arts either as a hobby or for combat are posted for the world to see. The combat orientated systems have both the average person up and the pro. You see the worst of them and the best. Even the worst of them still are able to demonstrate that the techniques work even in a gross motor skill way.

The TMA has the average guy performing but no pros. I do not included San da in the typical TCMA mindset. If they say they are going to throw you.. you are on your ass. In TMCA they say "I'm gonna parry the right hand, hook the left hand
grab the wrist then throw you to the floor." but when it comes down to demonstrating those techniques in full force mode they revert to kick boxing. Even though there is nothing bad with kickboxing but when this occurs this should be telling you, as a practioner of TCMA, that something is a miss. If you can not pull off a given technique when the opportunity arises, after constantly drilling it, it is not you who is "broken" but the technique.

[Notintheface]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD5FQIN-hFo&mode=related&search=
TMA, no nonsense, they say they will F you up and they do it....Take note and follow suit.

I can't wait for this kind of power kicking to become more prevalent in MMA fights.
Great finds Knife.

[n00854180t]

BJJ:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ciYtazMQE4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjK0g-cDJI4&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFCwdBEOS1Q&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdrf8u-fHos&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHUXUW2i8PA

I don't think anyone is arguing that BJJ isn't effective against fighters that have little to no ground training. That certainly isn't what I was saying.

Kyokushin Karate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJ7fcFiZa7g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD5FQIN-hFo&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FB8hPmsg28&mode=related&search=

I admit there are *some* decent videos, but there seem to be very few that demonstrate different styles of fighter at equal skills levels vs. Usually they are of the type of the above, with one fighter having vastly superior skills in an area that makes the difference (i.e., ground vs. primarily strikers).

[Notintheface]

See stuff like this, strike the nipple that breaks the whole rib cage. This kind of stuff gives TCMA a bad name. This runs more rampant than actual true tested methods.

http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2099609627

What knife is trying tog et at, if I may be so bold as to interpret, is that all those people are the average people in the systems. Look at a typical sparring match at a kung fu tournament. Look at an average kung fu class sparring session. It does not remotely demonstrate what is indicative of the fighting method that is professed by the kung fu teachers.,

Now if you could possibly post something that shows more than what we have been discussing in this thread. I have been looking like crazy trying to prove myself wrong and I have been only able to find what I already have posted.

Gone are they days of "Oh you have to just take my word for it or have faith it will work one day."

[n00854180t]

n00854180t's

n0,


The youtube stuff I put up was examples of average people. I did this because someone said "The best way to tell if an art works is not by the pros but when demonstrated by the average student." I think it was Fu pow but don't quote me on that. I posted on the empiric thread children, adults, all were average people putting on a show in local tournaments, in schools and in fun sparring sessions. No one was trying to knock each other out but they were tying to use what works.

Okay, it's just that I see very few TCMA people there, either average or otherwise. It seems they are either same style sparring matches, or matches that no one would argue will be one sided (as in the Gracie videos). Perhaps this is part of the problem in general?

I you want me to pull out the elite as an example, which fu pow thing is not indicative of the styles effectiveness or average students skill, I can easily do so for Judo, Shuai Jiao, MT,BJJ, Sambo,Savate, Boxing, San Da and many other styles. These style pro port to fight a certain way and what they say they do. They make no excuses or make outlandish claims. If you ask a typical or pro TCMA to do the same you will not receive direct evidence of effectiveness. Pro TCMA. excluding Shuai Jiao and Sand da, does not look like what is taught in the forms or with their drills. I am not saying you have look like the movies but do not do kickboxing then call it kung fu. Do not make outlandish claims like Fu pow and then say oh its "possible" but you are not seeing with your eyes o you have to feel it when my sifu touches hands with you. I have touched hands with so-called chi-master and people who "specialize in Fah jing power" only to get excuses when they are unable to reproduce what they can do on a willing student.
Indeed, I agree. It seems that the styles you listed above are prevalent and stick to the methods that they actually train. I just see very little of TCMA that is of much skill level or not contrived to produce a certain result. For instance, I don't see any TCMA fighters that also train Shuai Chiao plus whatever kung fu style vs. MMA fighters or the like. As you say, it seems most of them end up kickboxing or something that looks more like TKD sparring than kung fu at all. Also, I am the first to admit that the "chi blast" people are full of it, and are only using willing students. If this is obvious to me, without any real experience of my own, then I think it is for absurd for anyone that actually trains TCMA to claim that it is real.

This is not only prevalent in the TCMA but in most TMA. I have heard things like "Well if he shoots in i'll kick him in the face, drop into a ma bu, my root is to strong to be taken down, eagel claw him behind the neck, I'll use dim mak stike special # 32" and the list goes on and on.
Right, and this is unrealistic as one can see in some of the videos posted above. I think likely the only real way to defend against a good ground game is to have that training as well, and not to try and assume that XYZ combo of striking or techniques will magically close that gap in experience.


It is representative of martial arts. All the average everyday people who use the arts either as a hobby or for combat are posted for the world to see. The combat orientated systems have both the average person up and the pro. You see the worst of them and the best. Even the worst of them still are able to demonstrate that the techniques work even in a gross motor skill way.
This seems to be true of TMA, but there are not all that many TCMA videos that are not forms or contrived matches. That's just my impression.

The TMA has the average guy performing but no pros. I do not included San da in the typical TCMA mindset. If they say they are going to throw you.. you are on your ass. In TMCA they say "I'm gonna parry the right hand, hook the left hand
grab the wrist then throw you to the floor." but when it comes down to demonstrating those techniques in full force mode they revert to kick boxing. Even though there is nothing bad with kickboxing but when this occurs this should be telling you, as a practioner of TCMA, that something is a miss. If you can not pull off a given technique when the opportunity arises, after constantly drilling it, it is not you who is "broken" but the technique.
I agree completely. Personally I do not share the reservations of some that training TCMA is the "ultimate" answer to everything. I find that hard to believe and do not see it in practice. In my completely non-expert estimation, one must leave options open to adapt to the environment one finds oneself in. If this includes cross training in MMA or other styles to include adequate ground training, so be it.

I guess what I'm wondering is if any of the "pro-MMA" people (and please note, I am neither pro one or the other, and personally think either could benefit from the other muchly) think that TCMA has merit as a core training method, augmented with other styles to cover the weak areas (ground apparently)?

I also agree that techniques that are ineffective, unrealistic, or nigh impossible to perform on a resisting, skilled opponent should be thrown out or put aside for more effective training.

Again, I do not claim to be expert, and in fact quite the opposite. Take these observations as one from an outside MA enthusiast, only.

-Ross

[n00854180t]

Now if you could possibly post something that shows more than what we have been discussing in this thread. I have been looking like crazy trying to prove myself wrong and I have been only able to find what I already have posted.

Gone are they days of "Oh you have to just take my word for it or have faith it will work one day."

I cannot post anything of the sort, since I am not experienced in the least. Personally, I would like to see this just as much or more so than you :p The fact that it is not there, in whole or part, is what I am pointing out. My above post was an attempt to point out that it seems there are very few videos that show even average TCMA students actually applying their training, much less skilled (not elite or expert even) students sparring with students of other styles. I would very much like to see *that*.

I also admit my incorrectness as to the representation of other MAs on YouTube in general. And as to the Russian MT vs. Aikido fight, it wasn't apparent in my sleep deprived state (40 hours) that this was also a demonstration, so I withdraw this as well.

[Notintheface]

here are some tournament fighting clips


http://www.bakshaolineagleclaw.com/video/IMAC2002/HarterFight01.html

http://www.bakshaolineagleclaw.com/video/IMAC2002/NateFight01.html

Another example of the nonsense that represents kung fu.
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http://www.lingnamsiulum.com/philosophy.htm

At Ling Nam Siu Lum, the primary focus has always been on Self-Defense and Self-Improvement. That is not to say that I don't train students for tournament competition, I just don't emphasize it as much as commercial schools do. Let us make a distinction in terms here: Sself-Defense training involves those techniques and methods which allow a practitioner to incapacitate an opponent as efficiently and quickly as possible, regardless of size, number of opponents and level of threat (armed or unarmed). This requires attacking some of the most vulnerable areas on the body. Such tactics would be taboo in sport competition for obvious safety reasons. TThe mindset of the self-defense practitioner also poses certain problems in the sporting arena. The Self-Defense practitioner, particularly Southern Kung Fu stylists, by their very nature, are relentless in their attacks. They constantly press forward in their attacks maintaining pressure on the opponent, allowing no quarter, so as to efficiently dispose of the opponent as quickly as possible. This is achieved by controlling the opponent's "bridge" through such methods as sticking, trapping and/or destroying the opponent's bridge.

I understand that this is his philosophy and his beliefs but can you honestly say that it holds water?


Please tell me how this is any different than kick boxing? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1XxziUQtrc

[Notintheface]

Okay, it's just that I see very few TCMA people there, either average or otherwise. It seems they are either same style sparring matches, or matches that no one would argue will be one sided (as in the Gracie videos). Perhaps this is part of the problem in general?

Yes it is a problem in general. When the kung fu people do step up to use their style people say its one sided because Bjj took it to the ground. It is one style versus the other. It would like saying "oh the judo guy won because he threw the silat guy on his head thus it is one sided" Royce gracie or any gracie is just like any person here when they would challenge or be challenged before they gained extreme fame in the ufc. It has been a while since the ground game has been put into the martial arts ring and people have more than had the opportunity to develop methods to counter it. Some have failed some have succeeded. But I digress, when it is one style versus another you can not say it is one sided because it is just that style versus style. Judo will throw you, kyokashin(sp) will try to beat you to a bloody pulp, Bjj will try to tap you out and kung fu will do what?



I guess what I'm wondering is if any of the "pro-MMA" people (and please note, I am neither pro one or the other, and personally think either could benefit from the other muchly) think that TCMA has merit as a core training method, augmented with other styles to cover the weak areas (ground apparently)?

I am not saying that Kung fu is wholly nonsense because I understand that there is always a .001 person who can pull off what they say. Also, I actually plan on using some of the Shuai Jiao training methods for conditioning.

[n00854180t]

Eh, I do think it is one sided when you have someone who has a primary focus on ground going up against someone that has no ground training at all, or so little as to not matter. Trying to counter ground with striking seems a bit fruitless to me. It's not merely style vs. style, I think, because you are talking about one side having an automatic advantage. What I'd like to see is style vs. style where both fighters are well rounded, not contrived fights where one obviously has a deficiency in a key sport MA area and that is used to end the fight. To me that's no different than people demonstrating impractical techniques on completely untrained people, in slow motion, and claiming this would be effective vs a skilled, resisting opponent.

Although perhaps your point is that maybe a TMA fighter could have landed a few powerful blows. Still though, without ground training the other could close fast enough to get the takedown and from there it's basically over. My ex-wife almost got first dan in karate before she started having health problems, and I've felt her strikes before...quite a bit of power considering she was out of shape when we met and also a very small girl (5'2").

[Notintheface]

I do think it is one sided when you have someone who has a primary focus on ground going up against someone that has no ground training at all, or so little as to not matter.

When ever you put style versus style you are gonna have a gap some where.

ok say for example, you put a Judo practitioner against a kick boxer. The kick boxer wins by head kick KO. People can say, "oh it was one sided because Judo people are at a striking disadvantage" THe complete revers can be said if a Judo person throws the kick boxer on his head for a KO. The disadvantage would be the kick boxer doesn't know how to throw.

trying to counter ground with striking seems a bit fruitless to me. It's not merely style vs. style, I think, because you are talking about one side having an automatic advantage

there has been people who can counter grappling with pure striking. The stuff a shoot, get there as off the floor and out of guards as fast as possible, or whatever. When is the last time you seen chuck Liddel grapple? It can and has been done. It has to be trained but a lot of people go in not knowing the enemey and assume that what they have is going to pass muster.



What I'd like to see is style vs. style where both fighters are well rounded, not contrived fights where one obviously has a deficiency

Well, welcome to MMA. Thai fighers are learning to throw and grapple, judokans learn to kick like Thai fighters. But I doubt we will ever see tiger claws, nipple strikes, Tai chi shoulder strikes anytime soon in the combat skill set of fighters.


to me that's no different than people demonstrating impractical techniques on completely untrained people, in slow motion, and claiming this would be effective vs a skilled, resisting opponent.

It is different, it is telling you to look at what I know that is working on you. A smart fighter would be like WTF was that. Learn it, build a defense, fight again and say Ha, not this time.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

do not do kickboxing then call it kung fu.

Reply]
See, here is the issue. Many Kung Fu styles are basically Kick Boxing, with locks and throws. Long Fist is especially like this. In fact many of the weirder looking moves in the forms ARE the throws. They are not strikes.

Now, with that said, if you watch Kuo Shou, and San Shou/San Da, you see plenty of standard, Bread & Butter Long Fist techniques being used pretty much exactly as th