The CMA Ground Challenge!

[PangQuan]

I pose a challenge to all the CMAists out there on this board.

In light of our current CMA ground fighting thread in the Shaolin section, there is a large dispute it seems as to whether CMA has groundfighting.

I am an advocate of the mindset CMA Does have groundfighting, yet that the wholesale teaching, training and development to the point of competition worthy proficiency is NOT in place.

The venue for competative demonstration being MMA of course as its the prevelant venue for showing the world your stand up and ground all in one fight.

SO THE CHALLENGE:

capture on video, you, your school, your class mates, your teachers, ANYONE who is STRICT CMA, practicing heavy on the ground, showing us the skills.

I want to see it.

so you may say "but uncle pang, we dont have the footage"

well guys, go get it, find a friend with a cam, go buy one, rent one borrow one.

just get the footage and post it here to shut me up.

:D

[PangQuan]

Okay, so I know you guys are all out there getting the footage.

I want to make it a little easier.

Just grab some footage at a competition where you, your fighters, or your trainer are using their CMA to win or do well against known, experienced grapplers.

Now, okay, so you still may not have the camera. Chances are someone at the competition/fight will. Perhaps from the opposing faction to show thier superiority over CMA groundfighting.

Get the contact info and ask them for a copy.

I know in the MMA forum Charles 'the fearless monk' Wilson went ahead and started the trend. I think he did real well. From his own words, its pretty much his stand up worked to the ground. But, Ill bet he practiced as well. In other words, constant training, that includes ground work practice, rather than theoretical possibilities.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46280

Now I know some of you gungfu guys are doing this as well. Ill be the first to state, and admit, that in my CMA training I have not had the opportunity to work the ground much at all.

I actually plan to take care of this within the next year or two, but ill probably be going to BJJ/JJJ/Judo to get the road started, as they can start teaching me a nice technical ground game right away, and get me comfortable in a realatively short ammount of time to be able to start learning the game.

Of course thats just me, I wont have my car painted by a police man, and I wouldnt have a mechanic work on my teeth....Ill go to the people that train and focus on the aspect I want.

[PangQuan]

I'll give 100 dollars to the first Strictly CMAist to submit a BJJ black belt in organized competition.

Anyone else want to add to the pot? A CMA grappler just might be able to submit his way to fame and fortune.

[SevenStar]

I'll add $100 to that one.

[NJM]

I'll add kudos.

[PangQuan]

so we are up to 200 bucks and a kudo's

not bad to start. I might add, im not dissing CMA, its all I know....well i guess i know other stuff, but in regards to MA, its all i know ;)

[bodhitree]

double kudos, and if they're in Pittsburgh dinner from a fast food value menu.


(one time offer must be redeemed within 60 days of said submission not available to residents of alaska or new jersey or where law prohibits, black belt must have credentials, void where prohibited)

[TenTigers]

Dim-Sum at Dragon Palace is on me!

[Golden Arms]

Why would a CMA person submit a BB grappler at his own game? That doesnt make much sense to me. If you want to work submission work, then practice a style that specializes in it. I have used my CMA to counter grappling, and submission work, but what you are talking about amounts to kind of the same thing as looking for a wrestler to KO a good boxer in a boxing only match. Not saying it cant be done, but isnt really specific to what even most good CMA people are going to be training for.

[PangQuan]

Why would a CMA person submit a BB grappler at his own game? That doesnt make much sense to me. If you want to work submission work, then practice a style that specializes in it. I have used my CMA to counter grappling, and submission work, but what you are talking about amounts to kind of the same thing as looking for a wrestler to KO a good boxer in a boxing only match. Not saying it cant be done, but isnt really specific to what even most good CMA people are going to be training for.

Ya, I get what your saying fully.

This whole thread is more in line with the gaboodles and gaboodles of pages in the CMA groundfighting thread thats i think on page 19 right now.

Im not saying any CMA people should go round trying to submit a BB Grappler, just that if they did, I'll pay em. And from the looks of it, so will others. :D

just a fun lil proposition in that can double as proof of a highly skilled grappler born soley out of CMA training.

of which is in dispute

[PangQuan]

i should say that ground fighting within CMA is in dispute...

Some say its there, some say its not, some say its there but not really taught.

like my rhyme?

I say, if it IS there and it IS taught, where are the experts that can claim a highly refined CMA ground game?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think CMA's ground game is two fold.

1. Ground and pound, which includes stomping, and kicking a grounded oponent while standing, and if you do go down, pound away while keeping on one knee so you can get up really fast and menuver to defend against his freinds rather than get tied up in a submission like snuggle fest like modern MMA.

2. Hit them in the head as hard as you can...WITH the ground.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Oh, and a third option is like the Fukien Dog boxing where the cma is on the ground, and defending against a standing stomp or standing kicker who likes to kick you when you are down.

[Oso]

there is no ground grappling in cma.

there is ground fighting and stand up clinching.

end of debate.

[PangQuan]

I think CMA's ground game is two fold.

1. Ground and pound, which includes stomping, and kicking a grounded oponent while standing, and if you do go down, pound away while keeping on one knee so you can get up really fast and menuver to defend against his freinds rather than get tied up in a submission like snuggle fest like modern MMA.

2. Hit them in the head as hard as you can...WITH the ground.

Excellent!

[PangQuan]

there is no ground grappling in cma.

there is ground fighting and stand up clinching.

end of debate.

what about people who swear they use chin na on the ground for submission type grappling?

[Yum Cha]

I was told a story by a prizefighter from 70's china I've known for many years.

He was in the grip of a mongolian wrestler, and escaped using the Tyson defense, he bit his ear off. The wrestler submitted, but claimed victory because he was wrestling and the Kung fu guy wasn't kung-fu-ing.

Well, out came the guns, and the 3 wise men had to decide how the pot was to be awarded. The kung fu fighter won because he argued that everything is Kung Fu, and they agreed.

[SevenStar]

there is no ground grappling in cma.

there is ground fighting and stand up clinching.

end of debate.

according to the thread, if you believe that, then either you haven't trained cma long enough or your teacher never learned it. are you sure you trained in authentic kung fu?

[Yum Cha]

That other thread on the shaolin forum really is a mess.

[Oso]

according to the thread, if you believe that, then either you haven't trained cma long enough or your teacher never learned it. are you sure you trained in authentic kung fu?

I guess 25 years of CMA isn't enough, eh? :o

my bad, here I go thinking I know something again. :o:o




I don't believe it. I feel I pretty much know it. And since no one is coughing up any evidence I can use a negative proof to substantiate my claim. :p

[mantis108]

Well, I am not interested in the rewards;however, I would like to share something that I share on other boards relating to this topic just the same.

------------
Kaveh Tahani used to training CCK TCPM/Mantis Kung Fu for about a year or so with me when he was living in Yellowknife, NWT, Canada. He is currently a student at Franco Kickboxing / Pankration in Vancouver, B.C., Canada and has been there for 5 months. Under the guidance of Mr. Franco, he entered in the middle weight Full Contact Pankration division at the 28th Can-Am tournament held at the BCIT on June 2, 2007. This is his first ever baptize by fire Pankration style so to speak despite a relatively short training period in Pankration competition format.

Rules:

No Knees to the head
No Elbows
No Punches with the person in on the ground....only open hand or Palm strikes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuD7waUUvVQ

After 3 well fought bouts, he was awarded a silver medal in his division. This bout ended with him winning due to effective palm striking in opponent's half guard that I personally believe is something for traditional arts to ponder. The iron palm and short power generation, I believe are from his Karate background. The idea of disciplined attacks with dominant position, fluidity in all range and relaxation at all time are a few things our CCK TCPM brings to the mat. I believe those things coupled with Mr. Franco’s Pankration full contact training showed that traditional arts can contribute in the post NHB era. Traditional martial arts, either as primary source of self defense art or as component of cross-training, are just as relevant as any other martial sports in the ring or on the mat IMHO. Of course, Kaveh’s personal drive and enormous hearts are huge factors in his success as well.

We would like to dedicate this video to the superb effort of Mr. Franco and everyone at Franco Kickboxing/Pankration in guiding Kaveh in his transition from traditional marital arts into full contact Pankration. On behalf of everyone at the Yellowknife Taiji Praying Mantis Kung Fu Club, I would like to also congratulate Kaveh and his wife, Keiko, who has been most supportive to his martial arts endeavors.

I hope you all enjoy this clip. Thank you and comments and feed backs are most welcome.

Sincerely,

Robert Hui (Mantis108)

PS please check the following clip for similarity in fighting approach to Pankration

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6Hzl1r0kVA&mode=user&search=
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6Hzl1r0kVA&mode=user&search=)

-------
We believe that Kung Fu training can be relevant in martial sports venues if it addresses the "whole package" issue whether it's ground 'n pound or ground fighting (especially a la BJJ). I can't claim any credit to Kaveh's success since he entered as an active member of Mr. Franco's gym. But I hope that you see that mantis Kung Fu training methodology has help in the transition from one discipline to another.

Mantis108

[unkokusai]

Why would a CMA person submit a BB grappler at his own game? That doesnt make much sense to me. If you want to work submission work, then practice a style that specializes in it. I have used my CMA to counter grappling, and submission work, but what you are talking about amounts to kind of the same thing as looking for a wrestler to KO a good boxer in a boxing only match. Not saying it cant be done, but isnt really specific to what even most good CMA people are going to be training for.

Yeah, that's why a wrestler wouldn't claim that his wrestling contained all the boxing skills necessary to beat a boxer. He wouldn't claim that if his wrestling skills were just 'applied the right way' he could box the boxer and win.

Some CMA people have a problem with this kind of thinking.

[Oso]

what about people who swear they use chin na on the ground for submission type grappling?


chin na could be used, and I've done it (including submitting a BJJ BB so there!) but there is nothing I've seen in CMA that teaches the same sort of body movement on the ground that western wrestling, judo, jj or bjj does.

IMHO, it's cultural...why would they call the only thing that even comes close 'dog' boxing? as I understand it the dog is not necessarily an animal high on the list of revered creatures in chinese culture...unless it's high on the menu!

the CMA'ists that claim grappling in the sense that we understand it today are in denial and would not stand a chance against a 'grappler' of an equal weight or level of experience.

[tattooedmonk]

Yeah, that's why a wrestler wouldn't claim that his wrestling contained all the boxing skills necessary to beat a boxer. He wouldn't claim that if his wrestling skills were just 'applied the right way' he could box the boxer and win.

Some CMA people have a problem with this kind of thinking.Sounds like some one needs some cheese for their whine.

[David Jamieson]

I pose a challenge to all the CMAists out there on this board.

In light of our current CMA ground fighting thread in the Shaolin section, there is a large dispute it seems as to whether CMA has groundfighting.

I am an advocate of the mindset CMA Does have groundfighting, yet that the wholesale teaching, training and development to the point of competition worthy proficiency is NOT in place.

The venue for competative demonstration being MMA of course as its the prevelant venue for showing the world your stand up and ground all in one fight.

SO THE CHALLENGE:

capture on video, you, your school, your class mates, your teachers, ANYONE who is STRICT CMA, practicing heavy on the ground, showing us the skills.

I want to see it.

so you may say "but uncle pang, we dont have the footage"

well guys, go get it, find a friend with a cam, go buy one, rent one borrow one.

just get the footage and post it here to shut me up.

:D

you send in a tape of your class doing classical boxing first, then we can wrestle. :p

[tattooedmonk]

have ground fighting ground monkey, Ground dragon, tiger, leopard etc.

[Oso]

have ground fighting ground monkey, Ground dragon, tiger, leopard etc.

complete bs, sorry.


something made up within the last 20 years.

[SevenStar]

have ground fighting ground monkey, Ground dragon, tiger, leopard etc.

ground fighting or ground grappling?

[Shaolinlueb]

can't i just knock out the bjj bb instead?

oh wait, thats too easy. nm.

[Shaolinlueb]

i was actually saw an eagle claw book from the 20's from ngok fie, and inside it, it shows an eagle claw master applying chin na while on the ground ;)

[tattooedmonk]

ground fighting or ground grappling?fighting to means both grappling and striking, in addition to, anything else I can do to beat the other person senseless.

[unkokusai]

Sounds like some one needs some cheese for their whine.

I do enjoy wine, but you won't find any in that post.

[sunfist]

Id say even 'grappling on the ground' is too general a term. CMA clearly does have some grappling on the ground in terms of the application of chi na and such. You could extrapolate and say that maybe CMA has a reasonable submission arsenal, considering its vast array of joint locking methods, the mechanics of which dont really change on the ground.

What has never been presented is a cohesive system of positional grappling that is chinese in origin (and not an obvious and dubious retrofit). This would A: provide a vehicle for TCMA on the ground and give it a chance to be a truly viable system there and B: illustrate that historically TCMAists did practice and develop techniques for extended grappling on the ground, rather than it being a thing of oppertunism.

But then who knows, considering all the weird **** they came up with, it could be out there. I join the crowd in asking for it, but am too stingy to pay.

[SevenStar]

fighting to means both grappling and striking, in addition to, anything else I can do to beat the other person senseless.

sure, but ime, when cma guys say ground fighting they usually mean striking from the ground in an effort to get back to their feet.

[SevenStar]

in the past, lkfmdc has posted old photos of cma doing armbars, but this seems way more the exception than the rule - I can't remember if they were dog boxing pics or not

[SoCo KungFu]

in the past, lkfmdc has posted old photos of cma doing armbars, but this seems way more the exception than the rule - I can't remember if they were dog boxing pics or not

I would think so. But then things like arm bars are pretty much universal to just about any martial art so....

I think Oso said it best. Any pictures that do come up I think are going to be more of a circumstancial base. A CMA on the ground and pulling something out from the stand up game. But I don't think anyone will find actual ground grappling that isn't retrofit. Some Chi'Na can be used, once you know the mechanics, leverage and angles you can pretty pull out whatever comes in the heat of battle. But the problem is that I just don't think CMA practices ground grappling as a comprehensive skill. And I'm not sure it ever did. Not like as Oso stated, by the standards we think of today.

Personally I don't see the why people complain so much about it. If CMA doesn't have ground grappling...whatever. I still think the better part of CMA crossover to ground is the strikes and that's because I think CMA stand up when properly trained is one of the most comprehensive available. And there is always JJ/BJJ, MMA or wrestling for grappling. Its not THAT hard to find a place to train em if you just make the time. Cross-training is fun anyways and its always nice to expand your circle....And if you are going to learn might as well be from the best (meaning a specialist in that field). All the major MMA guys have multiple trainers right? A striking coach, a grappling coach, etc. I guess I was lucky, the school I started in had different teachers..kung fu, Arnis, kenpo and my sifu would bring in his Jj buddy to train us ground game. That and having friends in wrestling helps. So maybe I just don't have that style idolisation or something.

You know, I'm not sure how true it is because well it doesn't really matter. But once a Kung fu guy from China told me that back in those days it was considered disgraceful to be taken to the ground. Not sure to the truth to that. But that might be an indication. One thing I was thinking though. I'd be interested is anyone can tell me their opinion. Why if two different countries developed various fighting skills on the battle field (CMA and JMA), why is it that Japan developed structuralised ground fighting while China didn't?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Is anyone suggesting that CMA have submission grappling on par with BJJ, Sambo or any of the other "grappling oriented MA" ?

[Oso]

I would think so. But then things like arm bars are pretty much universal to just about any martial art so....

I think Oso said it best. Any pictures that do come up I think are going to be more of a circumstancial base. A CMA on the ground and pulling something out from the stand up game. But I don't think anyone will find actual ground grappling that isn't retrofit. Some Chi'Na can be used, once you know the mechanics, leverage and angles you can pretty pull out whatever comes in the heat of battle. But the problem is that I just don't think CMA practices ground grappling as a comprehensive skill. And I'm not sure it ever did. Not like as Oso stated, by the standards we think of today.

Personally I don't see the why people complain so much about it. If CMA doesn't have ground grappling...whatever. I still think the better part of CMA crossover to ground is the strikes and that's because I think CMA stand up when properly trained is one of the most comprehensive available. And there is always JJ/BJJ, MMA or wrestling for grappling. Its not THAT hard to find a place to train em if you just make the time. Cross-training is fun anyways and its always nice to expand your circle....And if you are going to learn might as well be from the best (meaning a specialist in that field). All the major MMA guys have multiple trainers right? A striking coach, a grappling coach, etc. I guess I was lucky, the school I started in had different teachers..kung fu, Arnis, kenpo and my sifu would bring in his Jj buddy to train us ground game. That and having friends in wrestling helps. So maybe I just don't have that style idolisation or something.

well said.

my first teachers grappling came from wrestling, my second from judo. I have yet to see any grappling in PL at all and it's the most traditional yet for me.

You know, I'm not sure how true it is because well it doesn't really matter. But once a Kung fu guy from China told me that back in those days it was considered disgraceful to be taken to the ground. Not sure to the truth to that. But that might be an indication. One thing I was thinking though. I'd be interested is anyone can tell me their opinion. Why if two different countries developed various fighting skills on the battle field (CMA and JMA), why is it that Japan developed structuralised ground fighting while China didn't?

i've heard one person speculate it was related to the armor but I can't remember the exact reason...I'll ask him again next week.

....????..... I'm not by any chance going to be at your school for some Shuai Chiao next month am I? :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Grappling has exsisted in every MA and Martial Sport since there was ogranized MA and sports.

Yes, grappling is more "specialized" in some Cultures than other, many reasons for that, including the armour one mentioned in regards to feudal Japan.

And we all know that CMA DO have grappling in one way or another, though specialized ground GRAPPLING like BJJ and such is extremely rare to say the least.

[Three Harmonies]

All this **** talking yet not one vid!?!?!? Quit reaching for something that is not there guys. Like Oso said, ground game is not in CMA. Period. Certainly no where near on par with BJJ Sambo etc.
Even in Roberts post you see that his chap had to go train at a MMA gym to learn more of the ground game.
Silliness,

Jake :cool:

[MasterKiller]

in the past, lkfmdc has posted old photos of cma doing armbars, but this seems way more the exception than the rule - I can't remember if they were dog boxing pics or not

From "National Methods of Self Defense" 1936.

[Becca]

according to the thread, if you believe that, then either you haven't trained cma long enough or your teacher never learned it. are you sure you trained in authentic kung fu?
Or he knows that if the more biased people were to see "kung fu grappling" they would cry foul; that the kung fu stylist wasn't "pure". Hence, there is no point in this debate.

[David Jamieson]

all i can see in this argument is prideful youth hoping that what they think they have is better than what they don't. lol

having said that, I never learned any grappling in any cma I've studied and i still study and practice.

But, the wrestling I do is GR and when combined with cma kumna, I can do ok against jj pracs. It's not like mma is any sort of secret bomb. Its just another expression of martial art and it certainly has more than its fair share of not very good practitioners like any other practice.

Now that it is really popular, it probably has more people than ever that really suck at it. :p

[tattooedmonk]

All this **** talking yet not one vid!?!?!? Quit reaching for something that is not there guys. Like Oso said, ground game is not in CMA. Period. Certainly no where near on par with BJJ Sambo etc.
Even in Roberts post you see that his chap had to go train at a MMA gym to learn more of the ground game.
Silliness,

Jake :cool:and because you and oso said it that makes it true right??:rolleyes:

If you guys are having problems witht this I am glad . Maybe it will help you utilize the techniques in your forms more and explore your individual arts to a profound level.

NHB / MMA has a lot of you really f#cked up.

A lot of it has to do with ego and testosterone.

And someone in CMA going into NHB competitions will prove nothing other than they can adapt to the sport....... which anyone can.

Maybe the CMA community is affraid that they will get their asses handed to them or maybe we just do not care about what MMA and NHB is about ....which is ego , money , fame , etc. .

This is not what CMA is about.

It is just a reflection of our times, just like the Gladiator games of Rome.

I am not saying that is what it is all about , but for most it is.

Based on the philosophy and the history of CMA it stands to reason that there is groundgrappling/ fighting with in the Art, equal to that of any other martial art..

[tattooedmonk]

From "National Methods of Self Defense" 1936.
These all fall into the catagory of Chin Na.
ground1.jpg (61.9 KB, 7 views)
ground2.jpg (87.8 KB, 6 views)
ground3.jpg (56.9 KB, 6 views)

[SevenStar]

All this **** talking yet not one vid!?!?!? Quit reaching for something that is not there guys. Like Oso said, ground game is not in CMA. Period. Certainly no where near on par with BJJ Sambo etc.
Even in Roberts post you see that his chap had to go train at a MMA gym to learn more of the ground game.
Silliness,

Jake :cool:

tattooedmonk is supposedly putting together some clips of himself showing the ground grappling from his style

[MasterKiller]

Based on the philosophy and the history of CMA it stands to reason that there is groundgrappling/ fighting with in the Art, equal to that of any other martial art..
You are working backwards, trying to make reality fit your philosophy.

Seems like Kung Fu magazine has an article every month about Wing Chun grappling now. Where were these articles 10 years ago?

[Becca]

You are working backwards, trying to make reality fit your philosophy.

Seems like Kung Fu magazine has an article every month about Wing Chun grappling now. Where were these articles 10 years ago?No one was interested 10 years ago. MMA was still considered fringe. It's only been in the last year to 18 months that it has gained enough popularity to go main stream.

And to apply your theory: the first UFC was almost 15 years ago, but MMA on cable was unherd of before TUF. Were was all the fight specials before that?
... on pay-per-veiw; they were available to those who were interested enough to find it, watch it, and pay for it. Just as CMA grappling was out there, but you had to be interested enough to find it and pay for it...:rolleyes:

[MasterKiller]

No one was interested 10 years ago. MMA was still considered fringe. It's only been in the last year to 18 months that it has gained enough popularity to go main stream.

If it WAS there to begin with, it should have been taught along with the other skills of the system, regardless of "mainstream interest."

No one was interested...my @ss.

[Three Harmonies]

Tattooed -
We are talking about a systematic approach to ground fighting/grappling. Where is your proof that it is in CMA???? I am not talking about you extrapulating ideas from the CMA, I am talking about a systemized approach utilizing proven applied theory. There is none. Period. What little stuff like Fukien Dog Boxing, Di Tang, etc. there is, none of it can hold up to anyone with 6 months of solid grappling training.
Nothing has me ****ed up, reality is reality. Tim Cartmell is one of the few CMA trained fighters who has earned his BB in BJJ, on top of which he is fluent in Chinese and pretty much considered an expert in the area, and he will be the first to tell you that CMA has NO ground grappling!! Period. He has researched it, studied it, looked for it, and therefore I would believe more of what he says than some knucklehead on the net.
If there was a solid grappling system found within the CMA then why have we not seen one, ONE, fighter in any MMA bout doing it????? Why??? Sambo is barely on the radar screen here in the US, and yet we have seen many guys competing in MMA! The CMA are 20 times larger/more popular than Sambo, yet we have not seen one, ONE, in any MMA bouts!
Nuff' said.

[tattooedmonk]

If it WAS there to begin with, it should have been taught along with the other skills of the system, regardless of "mainstream interest."

No one was interested...my @ss.should have been but was not. does not mean it is not there

[tattooedmonk]

Tattooed -
We are talking about a systematic approach to ground fighting/grappling. Where is your proof that it is in CMA???? I am not talking about you extrapulating ideas from the CMA, I am talking about a systemized approach utilizing proven applied theory. There is none. Period. What little stuff like Fukien Dog Boxing, Di Tang, etc. there is, none of it can hold up to anyone with 6 months of solid grappling training.
Nothing has me ****ed up, reality is reality. Tim Cartmell is one of the few CMA trained fighters who has earned his BB in BJJ, on top of which he is fluent in Chinese and pretty much considered an expert in the area, and he will be the first to tell you that CMA has NO ground grappling!! Period. He has researched it, studied it, looked for it, and therefore I would believe more of what he says than some knucklehead on the net.
If there was a solid grappling system found within the CMA then why have we not seen one, ONE, fighter in any MMA bout doing it????? Why??? Sambo is barely on the radar screen here in the US, and yet we have seen many guys competing in MMA! The CMA are 20 times larger/more popular than Sambo, yet we have not seen one, ONE, in any MMA bouts!
Nuff' said.This is one guy and I know that there are others , but there are also alot of guys who are saying there is. Because this guy is more well know and has a BB in BJJ does not mean that it does not exist . I am sorry that his teachers did notknow or teach it.

Why is everyone having a problem with understanding that yeah a lot of CMA schools master do not teach ground fighting ?? But many do.

So what if they have not competed in MMA matches, did you not read what I said about that ?? This proves nothing.

From my experience with CMA and practitioners/ masters they do not care about this crap. . The competition is within and not about what MMA makes it out to be.

This is all ego, testosterone , money and fame filled bull****.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is one guy and I know that there are others , but there are also alot of guys who are saying there is. Because this guy is more well know and has a BB in BJJ does not mean that it does not exist . I am sorry that his teachers did notknow or teach it.

Why is everyone having a problem with understanding that yeah a lot of CMA schools master do not teach ground fighting ?? But many do.

So what if they have not competed in MMA matches, did you not read what I said about that ?? This proves nothing.

From my experience with CMA and practitioners/ masters they do not care about this crap. . The competition is within and not about what MMA makes it out to be.

This is all ego, testosterone , money and fame filled bull****.

Dude, I am sure that many CMA teach ground fighting and even ground grappling ( though I doubt the grappling compares to BJJ), it way be nice if you told us who and where these people are.

[MasterKiller]

I am sorry that his teachers did notknow or teach it.

So why are you the only SD guy that got this knowledge from your teachers?

[bodhitree]

So why are you the only SD guy that got this knowledge from your teachers?

my guess is he is an "inner door disciple" and he got there by, um, lets just say working hard for the money....

[unkokusai]

maybe we just do not care about what MMA and NHB is about ....which is ego , money , fame , etc. .

This is not what CMA is about.



There's the oldest cop-out of them all! Right up there with 'too deadly for.'

[unkokusai]

Based on the philosophy and the history of CMA it stands to reason that there is groundgrappling/ fighting with in the Art, equal to that of any other martial art..

Here again, trying to 'theorize' something into existence. :rolleyes:

[tattooedmonk]

So why are you the only SD guy that got this knowledge from your teachers? I am not. we would train over eight hours a day in conditioning , philosophy, theory , concepts, principles, forms , etc I had really special masters who had experience in other CMAs prior to SD.It was their life and not just a job or hobby.

[PangQuan]

IMO

In todays modern world, we as CMA practitioners if we are to hold true to our traditions to be the best we can, prepare ourselves for as many combat possibilities as we can, and train to be the best fighters we can be, we must not ignore the ground. Not saying we are, though definately, some do.

regardless of the past within the CMA community as a whole, whether the information was lost/deluted/hidden, or whether they chose not to extensively develop a grappling aspect to their self defense, that does not mean we need not to.

in light of the popularity of not only MMA, but grappling in general, CMA and other stand up dominated arts must be prepared for a grappler. Your chances of running into a martial artist and having to fight to protect/revenge/annihilate your enemy are rather slim. However IMO if you were to run into a martial artist and needed to fight, what are the odds in todays modern world he will be a grappler?

I think those odds are high.

IF you were to run into a MAist and had to fight him. Grappling is and has been a wonderful past time, yet with todays mainstream media and television/pay per view coverage of MMA(always fused with grappling of course) the desire to learn MMA/grappling will be at a high compared to many other, less publicised and proven modes of combat.

with this mindset, to truly be prepared as individuals for self defense, we must keep in mind the worst case scenario's. Facing a knowledgable grappler is one of those worst case scenario's for those not well versed in groundfighting/grappling.

sure sure, fight might not go to the ground cause of buddies, but what about anti social people like me? I dont travel in a pack, so a grappler would have a hay day with someone like me, unless i learn to protect myself and understand what a grappler will be going for, and how to defend that.

[tattooedmonk]

There's the oldest cop-out of them all! Right up there with 'too deadly for.'Here is another problem with you you take things out of context . It said prior to this that it is also possible that they are afraid of getting their a$$es handed to them.

You are and idiot.

Jugaro Kano was the one who took the deadly techniques out of judo/ jujutsu for sport .

Even in the history of the art it is proven. Why?? .

So you do not think crushing someones larnyx is deadly or poking out someones eyes or kicking them in the nuts or hitting them in the back of the head, biteing, stomping on them, etc?? This is CMA/ Kung fu!!!

Then why is it they are banned in NHB /MMA then Einstein??

Then if these techniques are not deadly and the people that use them for real self defense are not deadly then why can they not be used?

It should say no holds barred with an asterix next to it.

[tattooedmonk]

Here again, trying to 'theorize' something into existence. :rolleyes:You are just an idiot.!

[bodhitree]

Conclusive proof that cma does not have groundfighting (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=772283&postcount=299)

[PangQuan]

Its just that the to deadly for sport deal is a great pillow for people to fall back on that simply do not want to compete, want to save face for thier art/themselves, and often times have no other reason to explain why you dont see a lot of trad. arts in MMA type venues.

The hinge here is that its true.

But that is also its own worst enemy, because its so obviously true, everyone and thier moms use it as an excuse.

its just played out is all, and the majority of people who bring up this element are tools.

It goes without saying that its much safer for the athletes to compete with these rules in place, otherwise the athletes would not be around for very long to amuse and entertain us.

The only true way to settle this dispute regarding "to deadly for sport" is to have a true NHB event.

Which will never happen in the main stream...it has, and may happen again. Yet you wont find this type of fight venue around for long because people dont want to lose eyes and die....though it should also be noted that in the past NHB events, how many guys were like "im going for the fackers eyes"?

none. i would like to surely see someone of a good degree of skill be like "im going for the fackers eyes" then to see the results of a fight with that goal in mind.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Too deadly ?
Blah.

If your MA needs to rely on the "deadly" for you to survive, good luck with that.

As for REAL NHB and VT matches, yes there are some and they are still happening, IF you look for them.

[PangQuan]

Too deadly ?
Blah.

If your MA needs to rely on the "deadly" for you to survive, good luck with that.

As for REAL NHB and VT matches, yes there are some and they are still happening, IF you look for them.

we should set up eye gouging and crotch kicking only matches!

[sanjuro_ronin]

we should set up eye gouging and crotch kicking only matches!

Dude, in my first VT match some nipple-twister tried to eye gouge me, TWICE, one standing ( I assume it was a finger poke) that got him knocked on his ass ( hook > finger poke) and the other when we were on the ground that got his face elbowed for his troubles.
Then I poked HIM in the eye, just for good measure.
:cool:

[SevenStar]

No one was interested 10 years ago. MMA was still considered fringe. It's only been in the last year to 18 months that it has gained enough popularity to go main stream.

And to apply your theory: the first UFC was almost 15 years ago, but MMA on cable was unherd of before TUF. Were was all the fight specials before that?
... on pay-per-veiw; they were available to those who were interested enough to find it, watch it, and pay for it. Just as CMA grappling was out there, but you had to be interested enough to find it and pay for it...:rolleyes:

but the arts were still there and being taught. I have old issues of black belt from the late 80s or early 90s with muay thai articles. most of the black belt issues from the 80s and 90s had the muay thai vids being sold both by chai sirisute and pupad noy worawoot. I remember gjj ads from way back. I have old kung fu illustrated issues with muay thai articles... these arts were being talked about then though they weren't mainstream. However, I don't recall seeing a single issue about CMA ground grappling until mma started to blow up. Then it started with all of "CMA defense against a tackle" articles and moved on from there.

You are comparing the wrong thing though. Compare art to art and tv to tv - where was all of the televised san shou 15 years ago? where were the magazine articles? If gorund grappling is such an integral part of real cma, there would have been write ups about it SOMEWHERE. Of all the chin na articles and all of the monkey articles, etc. NOBODY cared to talk about ground grappling? I saw articles about strikes from the ground, why not grappling?

[unkokusai]

You are just an idiot.!


Aw, and I thought you didn't like 'name calling'! LOL!

[sanjuro_ronin]

GJJ was in Lethal Weapon 1, with the article(s) in Inside Kung fu, BB and some other rag preceding and follwoing the movie.

[PangQuan]

Dude, in my first VT match some nipple-twister tried to eye gouge me, TWICE, one standing ( I assume it was a finger poke) that got him knocked on his ass ( hook > finger poke) and the other when we were on the ground that got his face elbowed for his troubles.
Then I poked HIM in the eye, just for good measure.
:cool:

nice!

you are now labeled To Deadly for Sport!

no more sport for you!:mad:

[Three Harmonies]

You keep telling all of us that MMA does not "prove" anything. I beg to differ. They get in the ring and fight using what they know. It is "proven" that BJJ works. Smabo works. Muay Thai works. I do not hear these guys on the web philosophizing about what is and is not. They shut their mouths, balls up, and fight to prove something.
Conversly you have yet to "prove" any of the bull**** spewing from your mouth. I am happy to stand corrected in my assertations, but I want "proof."
To say that Tim Cartmell's teachers are ignorant and did not teach him something is a pretty bold statement coming from some ****ing troll that is not even willing to share his real name! Tim trained with some of the best their is in the 20th century. But alas I forgot that YOU are the only person that got all this "secret" training :rolleyes: I am sure Tim and his crew would welcome an opportunity for you to go over on open mat Saturday afternoons and teach them about ground work in CMA! Hell, look at that we can kill two birds with one stone. Not only can you educate Tim (after all he only has over 30 years of experience) and his students, but you can tape the whole thing and then prove to us all how you dominated them with CMA stand up and on the ground! Brilliant idea! I will be happy to retract my statement after that!
For those of you who have not experienced real combat on the street let me offer a bit of insight.....
Kicking to the balls, poking eyes, ripping throats, etc. etc. is all fine and dandy, but I have a question for you...... why is it I do not read about anyone doing such things when assaulted? With all the video footage of real street fights on the web I have yet to see ONE video where any of this happens! Not one!
One thing I have noticed on said video's is that 99.9% of the fights end up in the clinch range where grappling is top priority. Not all go to the ground, though the overwhelming majority do. But just about EVERY fight I have seen ends up in the clinch, and/or going to the ground.
Now before some of you knuckleheads berrate me with BS excuses like they are untrained, blah, blah, blah........I would prefer some video of your said "expertise" in these areas. Video will quickly shut up the nay sayers, your diarrhea of the keyboard will not.
Please do not get Oso, nor me, wrong. We both love CMA and train it everyday. But reality is reality. We have sought out other training because their is no ONE style/system that has everything needed to be a well rounded fighter. Period. Otherwise we would all be doing it. Nothing wrong with cross training, but keep things in perspective. You don't here Anderson Silva, or Mirko Crocop arguing about groundfighting being in their Muay Thai standup fighting do you? No. They are realistic because they know the limitations of the systems they have studied. Hence them cross training.
I use MMA gents as examples because they are out their doing, not talking. MMA is not the be all end all, but it is a venue that most of us have seen. Again we do not see a ton of CMA guys getting in the ring and proving ****. These arguments of "that is not what CMA is about" are the stupidest things I have ever heard! ALL martial systems are about combat. Period. The fluffy, foo foo, woo woo **** that many CMA have become is not the fault of the system, but the teachers!
Jake :cool:

[sanjuro_ronin]

nice!

you are now labeled To Deadly for Sport!

no more sport for you!:mad:

You should have seen the matches I won via chi blast !
**** Taco bell...

[PangQuan]

lol, now your definately too deadly!:eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

never under-estimate the power of a bean burrito, extra spicy, in grappling match.

[PangQuan]

You keep telling all of us that MMA does not "prove" anything. I beg to differ. They get in the ring and fight using what they know. It is "proven" that BJJ works. Smabo works. Muay Thai works. I do not hear these guys on the web philosophizing about what is and is not. They shut their mouths, balls up, and fight to prove something.
Conversly you have yet to "prove" any of the bull**** spewing from your mouth. I am happy to stand corrected in my assertations, but I want "proof."
To say that Tim Cartmell's teachers are ignorant and did not teach him something is a pretty bold statement coming from some ****ing troll that is not even willing to share his real name! Tim trained with some of the best their is in the 20th century. But alas I forgot that YOU are the only person that got all this "secret" training :rolleyes: I am sure Tim and his crew would welcome an opportunity for you to go over on open mat Saturday afternoons and teach them about ground work in CMA! Hell, look at that we can kill two birds with one stone. Not only can you educate Tim (after all he only has over 30 years of experience) and his students, but you can tape the whole thing and then prove to us all how you dominated them with CMA stand up and on the ground! Brilliant idea! I will be happy to retract my statement after that!
For those of you who have not experienced real combat on the street let me offer a bit of insight.....
Kicking to the balls, poking eyes, ripping throats, etc. etc. is all fine and dandy, but I have a question for you...... why is it I do not read about anyone doing such things when assaulted? With all the video footage of real street fights on the web I have yet to see ONE video where any of this happens! Not one!
One thing I have noticed on said video's is that 99.9% of the fights end up in the clinch range where grappling is top priority. Not all go to the ground, though the overwhelming majority do. But just about EVERY fight I have seen ends up in the clinch, and/or going to the ground.
Now before some of you knuckleheads berrate me with BS excuses like they are untrained, blah, blah, blah........I would prefer some video of your said "expertise" in these areas. Video will quickly shut up the nay sayers, your diarrhea of the keyboard will not.
Please do not get Oso, nor me, wrong. We both love CMA and train it everyday. But reality is reality. We have sought out other training because their is no ONE style/system that has everything needed to be a well rounded fighter. Period. Otherwise we would all be doing it. Nothing wrong with cross training, but keep things in perspective. You don't here Anderson Silva, or Mirko Crocop arguing about groundfighting being in their Muay Thai standup fighting do you? No. They are realistic because they know the limitations of the systems they have studied. Hence them cross training.
I use MMA gents as examples because they are out their doing, not talking. MMA is not the be all end all, but it is a venue that most of us have seen. Again we do not see a ton of CMA guys getting in the ring and proving ****. These arguments of "that is not what CMA is about" are the stupidest things I have ever heard! ALL martial systems are about combat. Period. The fluffy, foo foo, woo woo **** that many CMA have become is not the fault of the system, but the teachers!
Jake :cool:

This is a good post, and I agree to a 'T'

It makes you think of man in general.

Since when have we, in the history of man, ever known one man to hold all the answers?

Never.

We have always had to share information to improve our technology and the understanding of pretty much anything we have developed to a highly refined skill set.

why should we think today is any different, that anyone has the answers all wrapped up nice and neat in a perfect little cma package?

I think one of the largest aspects that contributed to the development of CMA as a whole was the sharing of information, I am sure many of you would agree with this.

As this information sharing, in China's past, was predominantly the sharing of Chinese knowledge, is it not time to add the rest of the worlds information to the total of what China has given us?

To me it would seem the correct path to follow in keeping true to the roots of CMA.

[PangQuan]

never under-estimate the power of a bean burrito, extra spicy, in grappling match.

Remind me to only grapple you on an empty stomach. ;)

[tattooedmonk]

You keep telling all of us that MMA does not "prove" anything. I beg to differ. They get in the ring and fight using what they know. It is "proven" that BJJ works. Smabo works. Muay Thai works. I do not hear these guys on the web philosophizing about what is and is not. They shut their mouths, balls up, and fight to prove something.
Conversly you have yet to "prove" any of the bull**** spewing from your mouth. I am happy to stand corrected in my assertations, but I want "proof."
To say that Tim Cartmell's teachers are ignorant and did not teach him something is a pretty bold statement coming from some ****ing troll that is not even willing to share his real name! Tim trained with some of the best their is in the 20th century. But alas I forgot that YOU are the only person that got all this "secret" training :rolleyes: I am sure Tim and his crew would welcome an opportunity for you to go over on open mat Saturday afternoons and teach them about ground work in CMA! Hell, look at that we can kill two birds with one stone. Not only can you educate Tim (after all he only has over 30 years of experience) and his students, but you can tape the whole thing and then prove to us all how you dominated them with CMA stand up and on the ground! Brilliant idea! I will be happy to retract my statement after that!
For those of you who have not experienced real combat on the street let me offer a bit of insight.....
Kicking to the balls, poking eyes, ripping throats, etc. etc. is all fine and dandy, but I have a question for you...... why is it I do not read about anyone doing such things when assaulted? With all the video footage of real street fights on the web I have yet to see ONE video where any of this happens! Not one!
One thing I have noticed on said video's is that 99.9% of the fights end up in the clinch range where grappling is top priority. Not all go to the ground, though the overwhelming majority do. But just about EVERY fight I have seen ends up in the clinch, and/or going to the ground.
Now before some of you knuckleheads berrate me with BS excuses like they are untrained, blah, blah, blah........I would prefer some video of your said "expertise" in these areas. Video will quickly shut up the nay sayers, your diarrhea of the keyboard will not.
Please do not get Oso, nor me, wrong. We both love CMA and train it everyday. But reality is reality. We have sought out other training because their is no ONE style/system that has everything needed to be a well rounded fighter. Period. Otherwise we would all be doing it. Nothing wrong with cross training, but keep things in perspective. You don't here Anderson Silva, or Mirko Crocop arguing about groundfighting being in their Muay Thai standup fighting do you? No. They are realistic because they know the limitations of the systems they have studied. Hence them cross training.
I use MMA gents as examples because they are out their doing, not talking. MMA is not the be all end all, but it is a venue that most of us have seen. Again we do not see a ton of CMA guys getting in the ring and proving ****. These arguments of "that is not what CMA is about" are the stupidest things I have ever heard! ALL martial systems are about combat. Period. The fluffy, foo foo, woo woo **** that many CMA have become is not the fault of the system, but the teachers!
Jake :cool:You as well as most the people on here take everything out of context . I did not say that MMA was not effective it is in a sport setting. I know some people that can use it in a real fight, however ,it is not a very realistic medium in which to prove it can be used in real combat .martial arts are about the intended effect. Not what MMA makes it out to be.
MMA is not about seeing what works it is about everything but that . We all should know what does and does not work.

you are argueing something that I never claimed.

In battle it is more than likely that a weapon would be used. H2H combat would be used if you lost that weapon or did not have one . Your last resort would be to go to the ground and wrestle with them.

Most people that get into fights on the street are not trained at all in any martial arts. Real martial artist do not put themselves in these situations the best defense is avoiding the situation, especailly seeing as they can be sued , prosecuted, and will do more jail time because of their skill. even if someone challenges and you beat them they can sue you and or you will go to jail....with great power comes great responsibility

Of course if it can be proven.

As for 99.9 percent of fight going to the ground, it is because of the lack of fighting skills .About 98.9 do not even know what to do when they get there. They do it to neutralize the situation and if they do it is mostly ground and pound and not grappling.

[tattooedmonk]

Aw, and I thought you didn't like 'name calling'! LOL!No this is a fact.

[bodhitree]

Remind me to only grapple you on an empty stomach. ;)

Yesterday two guys were grappling at the club, the one let out a **** (f@rt) so our coach screemed "that means he's weakening":D

[PangQuan]

Yesterday two more advanced belts were grappling at the club, the one let out a **** so our coach screemed "that means he's weakening":D

LOL

thats classic.

I remember back when i used to practice sport wushu heavily, sometimes going for an arial tech you push yourself so hard you just export all your gasses lol.

my teacher always said it was good for the "lift"

[PangQuan]

he said 99.9 go to clinch range...not ground

:)

[Three Harmonies]

Monk
you avoid the main points and try to find weakness's in mine. Your philosophy of "untrained" people street fighting and all this mumbo jumbo is silly. I am trained. I have fought and worked security previously. Your assumptions are incorrect my friend. I have seen in person, and on the web plenty of "untrained" fighters go to the ground. Just because you do not train the ground does not mean you don't end up there. I have seen many videos of gang members fighting and going to the ground. I got news for you bro, these guys are more "trained" than 95% of the people on KFO! They fight ALL the ****ing time! They are so "untrained" that they use leather gloves in the dead of summer to avoid cutting up there hands. Perhaps they have never taken a boxing, or martial art lesson in their life. But do not be so naive to think that equals lack of skill! I guarantee you if half of the folks on this board would fight half as much as most gang bangers do, your skills would increase 10 fold!
There is no point in continuing a conversation when you are simply trolling. If you wish please do post proof of all these "theories" you have, and while you are at it include your name and teacher. I would be interested to hear who he/she is.

Jake

[Becca]

If it WAS there to begin with, it should have been taught along with the other skills of the system, regardless of "mainstream interest."

No one was interested...my @ss.
... Nope, bye and large, most people who wanted to roll gravitate to judo, jujitsu, ect. They still do. And Kung Fu masters used to be notorious for not teaching something you asked for, so asking for grappling would get you maybe 1 technique. And if you don't find some other way to show your interest, they still wouldn't bring it out of the cupbord, so to speek. You want some grappling? Then let your sifu see you executing grappling style moves in free sparring. If you have a fighting Sifu, they won't stop you from using it, just guide it into the kung fu equivelant.

[Three Harmonies]

Becca
Not sure what you have been told over the last 5 years regarding ground grappling in CMA, and teachers attitudes, but you have been misled.
Jake

[MasterKiller]

... Nope, bye and large, most people who wanted to roll gravitate to judo, jujitsu, ect. They still do. And Kung Fu masters used to be notorious for not teaching something you asked for, so asking for grappling would get you maybe 1 technique. And if you don't find some other way to show your interest, they still wouldn't bring it out of the cupbord, so to speek. You want some grappling? Then let your sifu see you executing grappling style moves in free sparring. If you have a fighting Sifu, they won't stop you from using it, just guide it into the kung fu equivelant.

You are incorrect.

[tattooedmonk]

Monk
you avoid the main points and try to find weakness's in mine. Your philosophy of "untrained" people street fighting and all this mumbo jumbo is silly. I am trained. I have fought and worked security previously. Your assumptions are incorrect my friend. I have seen in person, and on the web plenty of "untrained" fighters go to the ground. Just because you do not train the ground does not mean you don't end up there. I have seen many videos of gang members fighting and going to the ground. I got news for you bro, these guys are more "trained" than 95% of the people on KFO! They fight ALL the ****ing time! They are so "untrained" that they use leather gloves in the dead of summer to avoid cutting up there hands. Perhaps they have never taken a boxing, or martial art lesson in their life. But do not be so naive to think that equals lack of skill! I guarantee you if half of the folks on this board would fight half as much as most gang bangers do, your skills would increase 10 fold!
There is no point in continuing a conversation when you are simply trolling. If you wish please do post proof of all these "theories" you have, and while you are at it include your name and teacher. I would be interested to hear who he/she is.

Jake Guess you are taking what I said out of context again or miss interpreting what I posted.. I did not say they did not go to the ground.Why are you getting into street fights?? I understand working security and such you might get into a physical altercation but to be getting into fights .......?

And I am not talking about sparring and applying what you learn and teach in class either.

Also I did not say that street fighter did not have any skill or anything like that . most people just plain and simple do not know how to fight nor do they want to.

[unkokusai]

with great power comes great responsibility

.

LOL! I knew it!

[unkokusai]

As for 99.9 percent of fight going to the ground, it is because of the lack of fighting skills.



Oooh, I hope he says a CMA master cannot be taken down! He's close!

[PangQuan]

1. those never trained in any MA, never fight, simply not fighters.

2. those never trained in any MA, fight anyway and build skill from experience.

3. those trained in MA, but never fight.

4. those trained in MA, but fight in some sort of venue.

5. those trained in MA, but fight on the street as well.

6. those trained in MA, but spar only.


those are pretty much the types i can think of when it comes to hand to hand combat.

can anyone add?

[Becca]

Becca
Not sure what you have been told over the last 5 years regarding ground grappling in CMA, and teachers attitudes, but you have been misled.
JakeBeen in the kwoon.;)


That statement is my own experience. I ast one time thougt CMA had no grappling. Then my first Sifu noticed I already knew how to lock joint and bar arms and such. Every Sifu I have trained with since has let me "use" in free sparring. Every one has shown me the KF equvelant of what I did after class. I have seen people come right out and ask to be taught and herd Sifu tell them that if they want to roll, go find a jujitsu school. But I know he know it, 'cause he's taught me...

Flame what you will from that; I know you ain't going to be abjective about it.:rolleyes:

[MasterKiller]

Then my first Sifu noticed I already knew how to lock joint and bar arms and such.

But I know he know it, 'cause he's taught me..

So which came first, the locks and armbars or him teaching you?

Every Sifu I have trained with since has let me "use" in free sparring. Every one has shown me the KF equvelant of what I did after class. I have seen people come right out and ask to be taught and herd Sifu tell them that if they want to roll, go find a jujitsu school.

Seeing something and going "HEY, WE HAVE THAT TOO!" is not the same thing as having an established system in place, which is why they keep telling you to go to a jujitsu school to learn it.

[PangQuan]

This is a good post, and I agree to a 'T'

It makes you think of man in general.

Since when have we, in the history of man, ever known one man to hold all the answers?

Never.

We have always had to share information to improve our technology and the understanding of pretty much anything we have developed to a highly refined skill set.

why should we think today is any different, that anyone has the answers all wrapped up nice and neat in a perfect little cma package?

I think one of the largest aspects that contributed to the development of CMA as a whole was the sharing of information, I am sure many of you would agree with this.

As this information sharing, in China's past, was predominantly the sharing of Chinese knowledge, is it not time to add the rest of the worlds information to the total of what China has given us?

To me it would seem the correct path to follow in keeping true to the roots of CMA.

In addition, you are seeing more and more of this as time goes on in the present. LOTS of guys/gals are crosstraining to fill any voids they might notice in thier game.

Whether CMA has good groundfighting/grappling is near errelivant(sp) at this point. EIther its not there or the teachers often times are not teaching it. Bad teachers....bad teachers...

anyhow, its a trend I personally notice getting stronger and stronger in todays modern martial art world in regards to TCMA.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't care much for MMA, outside the ruleset, for too many reason to discuss, suffice to say the "jack of all trades" factor is too high for me, BUT cross-training is truly the only way to benefit from the SPECIFIC SKILLS AND SPECIFIC EXPERIENCES a MA who train one thing above anything else.

You don't go to the dentist to get a prostate exam.

Unless you are one freaky mofu !!

[Becca]

So which came first, the locks and armbars or him teaching you?
I was rather spacific, though your taking it out of contex does make it seem otherwise...:rolleyes:


Seeing something and going "HEY, WE HAVE THAT TOO!" is not the same thing as having an established system in place, which is why they keep telling you to go to a jujitsu school to learn it.

Exactly. KF does not consider their ground work a seperate system, but rather a part of the whole. You want only the ground work, go to a school that focuses on ground work. You want the whole thing, stick around and the instructor will teach it to you in time, when he/she thinks your training has progressed enough to understand it. Don't like that? Too bad; that's how he/she teaches.

This is not a concept Western cultures deal well with. 90% of western adults throw a fit when told they have to wait for something. Then follows the curious logic that if I didn't get my way, then the failing is with them not with me. And, of course, if they aren't willing to let me have my way, then they must be faking, right?

[tattooedmonk]

I was rather spacific, though your taking it out of contex does make it seem otherwise...:rolleyes:


Exactly. KF does not consider their ground work a seperate system, but rather a part of the whole. You want only the ground work, go to a school that focuses on ground work. You want the whole thing, stick around and the instructor will teach it to you in time, when he/she thinks your training has progressed enough to understand it. Don't like that? Too bad; that's how he/she teaches.

This is not a concept Western cultures deal well with. 90% of western adults throw a fit when told they have to wait for something. Then follows the curious logic that if I didn't get my way, then the failing is with them not with me. And, of course, if they aren't willing to let me have my way, then they must be faking, right?Very good Becca.

[MasterKiller]

I was rather spacific, though your taking it out of contex does make it seem otherwise...:rolleyes:

I quoted you in the order you said it. Either you knew joint locks before you started CMA, or you learned them in CMA. Which is it?


Exactly. KF does not consider their ground work a seperate system, but rather a part of the whole. You want only the ground work, go to a school that focuses on ground work. You want the whole thing, stick around and the instructor will teach it to you in time, when he/she thinks your training has progressed enough to understand it. Don't like that? Too bad; that's how he/she teaches.

Um....no. Does your teacher also send you to a boxing school if you want to learn to punch? Or a MT school to teach you to kick? Sounds like he's passing the buck, to me.

This is not a concept Western cultures deal well with. 90% of western adults throw a fit when told they have to wait for something. Then follows the curious logic that if I didn't get my way, then the failing is with them not with me. And, of course, if they aren't willing to let me have my way, then they must be faking, right?
Us dumb Gwai Lo's can't learn real gung fu...:rolleyes:

[Becca]

I quoted you in the order you said it. Either you knew joint locks before you started CMA, or you learned them in CMA. Which is it?

...Then my first Sifu noticed I already knew how to lock joint and bar arms and such. Every Sifu I have trained with since has let me "use" in free sparring. Every one has shown me the KF equvelant of what I did after class.
How much more spacific do you want? A minute for minute time line? As I said, I was rather spacific, but taking things out of context makes it look otherwise.:rolleyes:

And yes, if all I wanted to do was box, my sifu would send me across the streat to the boxing gym. If you want to learn Kung Fu from him, you learn it his way. Which is to say, the complete style taught in the order he thinks will produce the best results. This "order" is different for each student, as he knows we are not all cookie cutter perfect. You have to trust your teacher to teach. You have to have faith that he/she knows what they are doing. Or you quit. That simple.:)

[tattooedmonk]

In addition, you are seeing more and more of this as time goes on in the present. LOTS of guys/gals are crosstraining to fill any voids they might notice in thier game.

Whether CMA has good groundfighting/grappling is near errelivant(sp) at this point. EIther its not there or the teachers often times are not teaching it. Bad teachers....bad teachers...

anyhow, its a trend I personally notice getting stronger and stronger in todays modern martial art world in regards to TCMA. It is not the art that is the problem it is the teachers. I believe that alot can be learned from other styles who specifically focus on certain aspects of fighting because they are specialist at it. If you want to know how to punch a boxer if you want wrestle a wrestler, and etc,
Kung fu actually is a mixed martial art if you really look at it. Especially Shaolin a great deal of CMA are hybrid arts focusing on different aspects of fighting . Am I not correct?? >>>>!!:D

[Becca]

Oh, now you've done it.... You thought this was a flame war before....:D

[Three Harmonies]

Becca
You don't know me well enough to accuse me of not being "o"bjective! As Master has stated, you doing a technique in sparring and your teacher going "Yeah we have that." is not the same as learning a technique from him. Principles are principles. Their is no "kung fu" way ("kung fu/gong fu" means hard work, it is not a style). Their is a right way and an incorrect way.
So please do share what style you study under whom? Any video of you or your style playing with a ground grappler?
As stated before systems such as Di Tang / Fukien Dog boxing etc. etc. have basic ideas of how to kick while on the ground, protect from being stomped, and a basic sweep or two. Nothing extensive. Nothing applicable to someone who is actively trying to grapple on the ground with you. Basics sure, but nothing anywhere near half of the curriculum of Sambo / Judo / BJJ / Fusen Ryu etc.

This thread is a perfect example of why CMA as a whole are suffering in popularity. We have shovel fulls of BS being thrown around with nothing to back it up. We have the "I cannot ask my master-sifu-guru-sensei to show me something because it is Chinese traditon that they are stubborn....blah, blah," martial arts aren't for fighting..................................
And in 10 years when we ask why no one sticks around in the CMA we can look back at this kind of ****, and say, "Oh....we did it to ourselves." :(


Tattoo-
So are you going to side step my suggestion of playing at open mat with Tim and his boys, and taping it? Seriously they are cool, and are always open to being shown how wrong they are, and Tim especially will appreciate you educating his ignorant ass!
I did not say I fight, I said I have been in them.

Jake

[Lama Pai Sifu]

chin na could be used, and I've done it (including submitting a BJJ BB so there!) but there is nothing I've seen in CMA that teaches the same sort of body movement on the ground that western wrestling, judo, jj or bjj does.



I flat out don't believe you. :mad:

[Oso]

I done laid down the word on 'grappling' in CMA.

T'aint none. Quit yer tusslin and go do something worthwhile.

Besides, Tatto is SD and that immediately disqualifies him from any argument regarding traditional CMA.

:eek::eek::eek:

[Oso]

I flat out don't believe you. :mad:

I don't care. :)

[tattooedmonk]

I done laid down the word on 'grappling' in CMA.

T'aint none. Quit yer tusslin and go do something worthwhile.

Besides, Tatto is SD and that immediately disqualifies him from any argument regarding traditional CMA.

:eek::eek::eek: I guess you missed the fact that I am no longer affiliated and have studied under other CMA masters.

You can think what you like .

You are full of yourself have too much pride and ego in the way to see that you just might not know all that you should know about CMA and that you just might be wrong.

[tattooedmonk]

I don't care. :)Oh yes you do. you care . I can see how it is with you and the guys that hug your nuts around here. You care when they hang on your every word ,so it stand to reason that you care when they do not. You do not have enough humility ,self confidence , self esteem, or anything else that you need not to. If you did not care you would not have responded to it.

[hung-le]

I can’t believe I’m posting on this lame ass site. Yet this topic is so sophmoric I can’t resist!

Does CMA have a ground game? No. That doesn’t mean you can’t develop a ground game that specifically enhances the skill sets of the art you are studying.

After years of CMA (and studying with a host of other Non- Chinese artist)
I have decent ground game and it doesn’t resemble jujitsu. I recently once again (i.e. worked out/with) at two prominent Judo schools in my area and yes I can give names..if anyone wants to call. One school is even heavily into Jujitsu. I could hang, I taped a brown first, once the Dan’s saw that, we rolled and I submitted a few of them (not all..but I could hang!)



Enough of blowing my own horn!

If you approach fighting from the premise that you have to have prowess against anyone no matter the style, size or situation, then having a ground game shouldn’t be a question.

Again!!!!!! that doesn’t mean you have to build a jujitsu repertoire, you can use other tools and be just as effective (look at Tito Ortiz’s ground and pound style…I kind of mimic that not by design but just by doing. if that makes sense…It certainly isn’t Jujitsu.

[Oso]

I guess you missed the fact that I am no longer affiliated and have studied under other CMA masters.

No, I didn't. I was just being an ass.

You can think what you like .

thanks.

You are full of yourself have too much pride and ego in the way to see that you just might not know all that you should know about CMA and that you just might be wrong.

lol, you're taking my stance in this thread as my entire personality. that's ok. you don't know me.

[Oso]

Oh yes you do. you care . I can see how it is with you and the guys that hug your nuts around here. You care when they hang on your every word ,so it stand to reason that you care when they do not. You do not have enough humility ,self confidence , self esteem, or anything else that you need not to. If you did not care you would not have responded to it.

raoflmao. you're too much. thanks for the laugh.

I hope all my nut huggers feel especially good right now...do me a favor would ya? the left one is a might itchy. :p

[SoCo KungFu]

Becca...between Oso and 3 harmonies there is about 40 years of TCMA experience. Oso even in your own style. You've been in PL what? 5 years? Your statement of time training to get to the good stuff is completely off. Heck my Sigung has some 35 years in CMA (mantis/pai lum), 13 under D.K.Pai himself. And he still got his ground game from JMA. My sifu 20 years in CMA and his ground from Gracie JJ. In my own 8 years mantis/pai lum hybrid, I still had to get my ground from JJ. Can ya guess what that tells me?

[SoCo KungFu]

Tattoo, its great that you are enthusiastic for your art. But the people you are calling out have historically been some of the more outspoken in favor of CMA on the forums. Dude part of knowing the strength in your art is understanding and accepting its weaknesses. Hell I lived in Japan and trained with some kick ass old Japanese dudes and I STILL think kung fu is the ****! BUT sometimes you just got to call it like it is. You owe it to yourself as an artist AND to your art to make it stronger. Evolve man

[Oso]

Becca...between Oso and 3 harmonies there is about 40 years of TCMA experience. Oso even in your own style. You've been in PL what? 5 years?

actually, it will be 4 in september.

Your statement of time training to get to the good stuff is completely off.

me? or Becca?

Heck my Sigung has some 35 years in CMA (mantis/pai lum), 13 under D.K.Pai himself. And he still got his ground game from JMA. My sifu 20 years in CMA and his ground from Gracie JJ. In my own 8 years mantis/pai lum hybrid, I still had to get my ground from JJ. Can ya guess what that tells me?

t'aint no ground in CMA. :)



slightly off topic:

'good stuff' is a myth. either it's 'good' from the beginning or it isn't.

that's another problem with a lot (not all) cma styles, the perpetuation that you have to put a lot of time in to get the good stuff.

my first teacher; the 'stuff' he taught allowed me to put a brown belt from the local tkd teacher on his ass in the first clash after just 2 months of training.


one of the things I liked about Pong Lai is that it challenged me from day 1.

still does.

[SoCo KungFu]

Oso I was refering to Becca's 5 years. Thats what the pro says. And you do pong lai? I coulda swore somewhere I thought you listed Pai Lum but gaaahhh....too many PL's!

[Three Harmonies]

Speaking of which what is SD? Southern Dragon?
Jake :cool:

[PangQuan]

Speaking of which what is SD? Southern Dragon?
Jake :cool:

I'm thinking they mean Shaolin Do

[tattooedmonk]

Tattoo, its great that you are enthusiastic for your art. But the people you are calling out have historically been some of the more outspoken in favor of CMA on the forums. Dude part of knowing the strength in your art is understanding and accepting its weaknesses. Hell I lived in Japan and trained with some kick ass old Japanese dudes and I STILL think kung fu is the ****! BUT sometimes you just got to call it like it is. You owe it to yourself as an artist AND to your art to make it stronger. Evolve man Thanks. I do not care who they have learned from or who they are on this board. They did not learn from someone that knew the fullest extent of their art .

Sorry.

The weakness in the art is that it is not taught properly and to the fullest extent of it's potential ,not because it is missing groundfighting , because it is not.

They may have been taught the pieces of the puzzle but they just have no clue as to how to put it ALL together.

It is the artist that makes the art complete. which I have.

[unkokusai]

Thanks. I do not care who they have learned from or who they are on this board. They did not learn from someone that knew the fullest extent of their art .

Sorry.

The weakness in the art is that it is not taught properly and to the fullest extent of it's potential ,not because it is missing groundfighting , because it is not.

They may have been taught the pieces of the puzzle but they just have no clue as to how to put it ALL together.

It is the artist that makes the art complete. which I have.


BWaaahahahahahaaaaaaAHAHAHAHAahahaaaaa!

Do you have your own theme music?

[SevenStar]

You as well as most the people on here take everything out of context . I did not say that MMA was not effective it is in a sport setting. I know some people that can use it in a real fight, however ,it is not a very realistic medium in which to prove it can be used in real combat .martial arts are about the intended effect. Not what MMA makes it out to be.
MMA is not about seeing what works it is about everything but that . We all should know what does and does not work.

you are argueing something that I never claimed.

In battle it is more than likely that a weapon would be used. H2H combat would be used if you lost that weapon or did not have one . Your last resort would be to go to the ground and wrestle with them.

Most people that get into fights on the street are not trained at all in any martial arts. Real martial artist do not put themselves in these situations the best defense is avoiding the situation, especailly seeing as they can be sued , prosecuted, and will do more jail time because of their skill. even if someone challenges and you beat them they can sue you and or you will go to jail....with great power comes great responsibility

Of course if it can be proven.

As for 99.9 percent of fight going to the ground, it is because of the lack of fighting skills .About 98.9 do not even know what to do when they get there. They do it to neutralize the situation and if they do it is mostly ground and pound and not grappling.

this is a post full of excuses. regardless of whether or not mma is exactly the same as a real fight, it's the closest thing out there. you state that one should already know which techniques work, but if you aren't testing them then how do you know? by relying on the word of others? ninja please.

going to the ground was a last resort on a battlefield full of guys with swords, sure. in modern times there are several advantages as well as some disadvantages.

I am not sure what you are getting at with the streetfight thing. who cares if most people involved in altercations are non-trained? you should be training for the worst case scenarios, not the reverse.
the 80% thing was a police stat... and cops deliberately try to take several altercations to the ground.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Thanks. I do not care who they have learned from or who they are on this board. They did not learn from someone that knew the fullest extent of their art .

Sorry.

The weakness in the art is that it is not taught properly and to the fullest extent of it's potential ,not because it is missing groundfighting , because it is not.

They may have been taught the pieces of the puzzle but they just have no clue as to how to put it ALL together.

It is the artist that makes the art complete. which I have.

Tattoo, whom my I ask is your teacher? And how long have you trained in MA? Just curious...

[SoCo KungFu]

Thanks. I do not care who they have learned from or who they are on this board. They did not learn from someone that knew the fullest extent of their art . That is quite a bold statement and very out of bounds. At least in Oso's case, I dont know him however I do know of the group he at least recently has been with. I know of his Sigung and can assume who his sifu. And I assure they are quite high caliber. As example the KF world is quite small. Do mind your bridges.

[MasterKiller]

How much more spacific do you want? A minute for minute time line? As I said, I was rather spacific, but taking things out of context makes it look otherwise.:rolleyes:

WTF?! Are you retarded today?

WHERE DID YOU LEARN TO LOCK JOINTS AND ARMBAR??????

YOU SAID:
But I know he know it, 'cause he's taught me...

BUT FIRST YOU SAID
Then my first Sifu noticed I already knew how to lock joint and bar arms and such.

SO Who The F@ck TAUGHT YOU IF NOT YOUR FIRST SIFU?????

[Three Harmonies]

PLEASE tell me SD does NOT mean Shaolin Do!?!?!?!??!?!?!
I just wasted all my time arguing with a Shaolin Do-nut!?!?!? I am going off to drink heavily:(:(:eek:

[Oso]

Oso I was refering to Becca's 5 years. Thats what the pro says. And you do pong lai? I coulda swore somewhere I thought you listed Pai Lum but gaaahhh....too many PL's!


check, just clarifying.


i sparred a pai lum guy about 20 years ago if that counts : )

oh, and the father of one of my students did pai lum in Orlando way back when.

[MasterKiller]

PLEASE tell me SD does NOT mean Shaolin Do!?!?!?!??!?!?!
I just wasted all my time arguing with a Shaolin Do-nut!?!?!? I am going off to drink heavily:(:(:eek:

And he's the nuttiest one yet.

[Three Harmonies]

Why didn't you guys warn me??????

[Oso]

yer a big boy.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Just saw a Bruce lee flick...in his first fight on Han's Island, he wins by making his opponent tap from some sort of armbar on the ground......

[Merryprankster]

From my experience with CMA and practitioners/ masters they do not care about this crap. . The competition is within and not about what MMA makes it out to be.

This is all ego, testosterone , money and fame filled bull****.

While it may or may not be true that CMA practitioners and masters do not care about the UFC or similar events (I tend to believe that most of them don't, for a variety of very good and very bad reasons), the rest of your statement reveals such a misunderstanding as to be "not even wrong." (thank you wolfgang pauli).

You have stumbled onto a pet peeve of mine, because I know from personal experience what ego and "testosterone," do to a competitor; they inhibit performance. I won't deny that the MARKETING is often designed to appeal to the "ego and testosterone," but image and substance are not always the same.

In short: MMA practitioners and competitors in general compete because they are competitors...it's like asking a writer why they write - they are compelled internally to do so. Those who are successful have dedicated, extremely taxing, training regimens, tremendous personal conviction in their own capability and a willingness to lay it all on the line, in public, against the best competition they can find.

Ego inhibits this process because it is AFRAID TO FAIL. A person who is afraid to fail does not embark on a dedicated, extremely taxing training regimen at all, because they might not make it through or do so raggedly, or expose themselves to getting beat by somebody they might normally win against...they make excuses for their poor performance, all to preserve their image of themselves. They lack conviction in their capability - they are the guys who are trying to WIN against their partners instead of TRAIN - always trying to prove themselves relatively, instead of focusing on mastery and absolute gains, knowing that that is how formidible competence arises. They will even go so far as to only train with those they CAN beat, or not even try when they train with those better than them. Finally, they do not lay themselves on the line against the best competition available. They want to win, not test themselves, and stick with competition levels they know they will dominate, 99 times out of 100.

Bottom line - the purpose of MMA competition is individually determined. There are some for whom ego is the primary motivator, but the best have reined it in a long time ago.

[Knifefighter]

While it may or may not be true that CMA practitioners and masters do not care about the UFC or similar events (I tend to believe that most of them don't, for a variety of very good and very bad reasons).

I think they care very much and feel threatened by the whole MMA phenomenom (especially those who are teaching). Talk to almost any CMA practitioner about martial arts. I will guarantee that, without you ever bringing it up, they will almost always bring up the subject of MMA... usually throwing in their opinions on how it is "just a ring sport."

[Oso]

I think they care very much and feel threatened by the whole MMA phenomenom (especially those who are teaching). Talk to almost any CMA practitioner about martial arts. I will guarantee that, without you ever bringing it up, they will almost always bring up the subject of MMA... usually throwing in their opinions on how it is "just a ring sport."


you short change a number of us.

[Three Harmonies]

AS much as I hate to admit it, KF hit the nail on the head! I have zero tolerance for the "On the street my technique would be deadly!" bull**** anymore! Just heard it the other day from a teacher that has over 30 years, about his Baji Fa Jin being able to kill someone!! :rolleyes::eek::mad:
Jake

[Three Harmonies]

Oso-Thanks for watching my back partner:mad:;)

You have to admit brother those of us trying to break that mold are few and far between! More of the goof balls, then those willing to push the limits of their comfortability and understanding.
Jake :cool:

[Oso]

i was watching your back. you met adversity and survived...you are better for the experience. :D


I agree there are very few who are trying to break the mold.

[MasterKiller]

For a real world example of MP's statement, watch the Sam Stout vs Spencer Fisher after-fight interview.

That was an awesome fight, fought by two highly competitive guys, yet after the fight Fisher was nothing but humble.

[Oso]

no doubt.

i saw that replay last night (now that I'm aware that Friday's are repeats :o )

Fisher is from a town about 1 hour from here...waaay up in the peaks. not really a hick town at all...very, very expensive real estate up there. and certainly not a 'one stop light' town of '200' people as that idiot with Rogan said.

I've been a fan of Fisher and now I'm a much bigger fan.

[RonH]

I think they care very much and feel threatened by the whole MMA phenomenom (especially those who are teaching). Talk to almost any CMA practitioner about martial arts. I will guarantee that, without you ever bringing it up, they will almost always bring up the subject of MMA... usually throwing in their opinions on how it is "just a ring sport."

MMA as a concept was an inevitable phenomena.

[boshea]

For a real world example of MP's statement, watch the Sam Stout vs Spencer Fisher after-fight interview.

That was an awesome fight, fought by two highly competitive guys, yet after the fight Fisher was nothing but humble.

I had the random good fortune of meeting Spencer Fisher once and watching him train. I had no idea who he was until afterwards, mainly because I don't follow the MMA sport (or any sport) that closely. I can say that he is a solid, good guy.

-b

[SevenStar]

While it may or may not be true that CMA practitioners and masters do not care about the UFC or similar events (I tend to believe that most of them don't, for a variety of very good and very bad reasons), the rest of your statement reveals such a misunderstanding as to be "not even wrong." (thank you wolfgang pauli).

You have stumbled onto a pet peeve of mine, because I know from personal experience what ego and "testosterone," do to a competitor; they inhibit performance. I won't deny that the MARKETING is often designed to appeal to the "ego and testosterone," but image and substance are not always the same.

In short: MMA practitioners and competitors in general compete because they are competitors...it's like asking a writer why they write - they are compelled internally to do so. Those who are successful have dedicated, extremely taxing, training regimens, tremendous personal conviction in their own capability and a willingness to lay it all on the line, in public, against the best competition they can find.

Ego inhibits this process because it is AFRAID TO FAIL. A person who is afraid to fail does not embark on a dedicated, extremely taxing training regimen at all, because they might not make it through or do so raggedly, or expose themselves to getting beat by somebody they might normally win against...they make excuses for their poor performance, all to preserve their image of themselves. They lack conviction in their capability - they are the guys who are trying to WIN against their partners instead of TRAIN - always trying to prove themselves relatively, instead of focusing on mastery and absolute gains, knowing that that is how formidible competence arises. They will even go so far as to only train with those they CAN beat, or not even try when they train with those better than them. Finally, they do not lay themselves on the line against the best competition available. They want to win, not test themselves, and stick with competition levels they know they will dominate, 99 times out of 100.

Bottom line - the purpose of MMA competition is individually determined. There are some for whom ego is the primary motivator, but the best have reined it in a long time ago.

it's a pet peeve of mine as well. I have ranted about it so much on this forum, that this time I let it go. A non-competitor cannot / will not comprehend the competitor's mind.

[Merryprankster]

7* I know what you mean.

But I think the non-competitor can at least KNOW, if not UNDERSTAND the competitors mind. They need simply to say "I can see how if you start with this framework, it leads you to 'x'. I can't imagine feeling or thinking that way, because it's just not important to me, but I can see how you or somebody else might consider it important and reach these thoughts on the subject."

The problem is that the word "competition," arrives as a loaded term in a lot of people's minds, which leads to equally loaded conclusion.

Competition is neither good nor bad. It's your attitude towards it that makes it so. If you view competition as a tool to measure self-progress and competency, then competition will have a positive impact on you. If competition is a way for you to express superiority to others, then it's going to trap you and have a negative impact.

Because competition DOES evaluate people relatively, it's very easy to focus on the latter.

A competitor is always asking "How do I get better?" That requires two things - a baseline "How good am I now?" Which leads to "how can I tell?"

Competition answers both of those questions, in the most direct way possible

A bully might compete, but he's not asking those questions. He's asking "Who can I beat?" Totally different. I would also say that I've met some bullies at very high levels of competition, and I've always wondered how much better they would be without that mentality.

Anyway, I'm not going to lie and say that my viewpoint on this is completely objective - I'm certainly pro-competition for those with the right mindframe and the desire to compete.

A corollary to this is that somehow training for competition and in competitive sports is the "fast, easy way," or something. It took me 6 years to get my brown belt, 4 or so of which were spent at purple belt (largely because I had some ego problems of my own, which I like to think I've worked through, and which I still monitor, just in case). That's not fast and easy. Also, for most of that time, and through to this day, I regularly put in 12 or so hours a week at BJJ, NOT INCLUDING the hours of tournament prep done externally.

So when people talk about "the easy way," it kinda gets my hackles up. There's nothing easy about what I'm doing, and I'll ask you to respect that, thanks. In return, I'll respect the hard hours you've worked to do your thing. I might have some fundamental disagreements about what those hard hours are getting you, but I'm not going to denigrate the actual WORK or your dedication...

Ugh... sorry - I've spent all week listening to people pontificate about cognitive behavior theories and organizational behavior theories and......

[tattooedmonk]

.....but does this mean unless you are on payperview and have a 6 figure contract and are recognized that you are not even in the same realm of being able to defend yourself when it counts with the same ferociousness and skill??

Many guys that I have trained with have the same level of skill had by guys in MMA contest they just do not need money and fame to motivate them nor do they need everyone to acknowledge what they do is effective to boost their egos.

They do it for the love of what they do and for survival.

Basically my question is this; Do you all think that just because these guys are fighting in MMA/ NHB/UFC that anyone of them are so above the other fighters in the world that no one can beat them or even compare to their skill??

I mean if this was true then there would be no one that could come in off the streets, better themselves, and become UFC champion, and there would be no progression in the sport and basically the sport would die.

The sport is always taking it to a new level and champions fall. People that were once the best eventually lose . Some make it back to the top and reign supreme again.

There is always someone out there that can do what you do better than you .

Remember when they said that no one could beat the Gracies that they were the best fighters in the world?? Yeah and we know how long that lasted.

Are these guys the best fighters in the world ?? Yes in NHB/MMA/UFC.

But I am sure that there are fighters in the world that are far better and superior.

Instead of these people coming in to the ring on payperview lets see the MMA/ UFC /NHB guys come out to where defending yourself counts the most, where a fightis for your life or for your family or someone you love.

I am not saying that these guys do not do this on some level ,but lets be real.

It is a sport and it is a business and these things are set up sometimes and people take falls.

[unkokusai]

.....Many guys that I have trained with have the same level of skill had by guys in MMA contest they just do not need money and fame to motivate them nor do they need everyone to acknowledge what they do is effective to boost their egos.


LOL! This is funny on so many levels!

[RonH]

If you continue to insist on posting responses of this type, the least you could do is elaborate, so the quality of the thread doesn't degrade any further than it already has. You were doing this in the last thread on CMA and groundfighting and I've pretty much given up on posting in that one because of the back and forth sniping. I would prefer if I didn't give up posting in this one, too, so I'm asking you if you could contribute something to this thread that's constructive, even if you are gonna write stuff like this.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Instead of these people coming in to the ring on payperview lets see the MMA/ UFC /NHB guys come out to where defending yourself counts the most, where a fightis for your life or for your family or someone you love

Reply]
When the Kung Fu world does this regularly, then the MMA world can follow the prime example.

[Merryprankster]

They do it for the love of what they do and for survival.


Good for them. Some guys are doing it to get paid doing what they love to do. How is that wrong?

Basically my question is this; Do you all think that just because these guys are fighting in MMA/ NHB/UFC that anyone of them are so above the other fighters in the world that no one can beat them or even compare to their skill??

No, that would be stupid. However, I would say that ON AVERAGE, a person dedicating a significant portion of their day to MMA contest prep is going to have a higher skill and fitness level than somebody who is not.

Many guys that I have trained with have the same level of skill had by guys in MMA contest they just do not need money and fame to motivate them nor do they need everyone to acknowledge what they do is effective to boost their egos.

This is an example of the loaded statement I was talking about. Do you really think Randy Couture, a 43 year old with a highly decorated competitive sport resume as long as my arm is looking for money, fame and an ego boost? This guy toiled away in an obscure (at least in the US) sport for pretty much nothing for over a decade. I somehow think an attention ***** looking for a paycheck and some fame would have picked something less grueling and more lucrative than greco-roman wrestling, and now he's getting some cash for his skills. Right person and place, meet right time. Why would you grudge these people the opportunity to make money doing what they love? Poverty isn't a virtue, and it doesn't ecourage being virtuous. It's just a lack of cash.

Individual motivations vary, and your comment is exactly the sort of bull**** I was talking about in my post on competition.

[tattooedmonk]

LOL! This is funny on so many levels! answer the questions that where asked instead being an immature idiot.

Are you saying that there no better fighter in the world thanin the UFC??

Then how could anyone new come into the sport and beat anyone that was already there??

I have asked you time and time again not to take what I post out of context and you continue to do so . Do you have reading and comprehension problems, add adhd??

[tattooedmonk]

Good for them. Some guys are doing it to get paid doing what they love to do. How is that wrong?



No, that would be stupid. However, I would say that ON AVERAGE, a person dedicating a significant portion of their day to MMA contest prep is going to have a higher skill and fitness level than somebody who is not.



This is an example of the loaded statement I was talking about. Do you really think Randy Couture, a 43 year old with a highly decorated competitive sport resume as long as my arm is looking for money, fame and an ego boost? This guy toiled away in an obscure (at least in the US) sport for pretty much nothing for over a decade. I somehow think an attention ***** looking for a paycheck and some fame would have picked something less grueling and more lucrative than greco-roman wrestling, and now he's getting some cash for his skills. Right person and place, meet right time. Why would you grudge these people the opportunity to make money doing what they love? Poverty isn't a virtue, and it doesn't ecourage being virtuous. It's just a la