excerp from forthcoming

[lkfmdc]

I've been doing a lot of writing over the years but I've finally decided on what I want to put out.... this is an excerp from a book I will be self publishing, release date August 07

enjoy (or flame, up to you!)

A case study: David A Ross and New York San Da

As I have already mentioned, I have an extensive background in Traditional Martial Arts (TMA). In many respects, both of my primary teachers were the epitome of these traditions. I didn’t just wake up one day; create the training program outlined in this book and open New York San Da. It was a long process, an evolution, and I think sharing it with the reader will help them put their own experiences in perspective.

My first formal martial arts instructor was the late Grand Master Pong Ki Kim. I began training with him around the age of ten and continued to study with him through high school. Grand Master Kim left a lasting impression on me and still influences me almost 30 years later. Grand Master Kim was an exceptional martial artist. He held the rank of 9th degree black belt in Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo and was a direct student of Moo Duk Kwan founder Hwang Kee. Grandmaster Kim was responsible in Korea for supervising the training in many of the Moo Duk Kwan schools and many instructors still active today in the United States began their training in Korea under Grand Master Kim.

Today, Taekwondo might be seen as the epitome of traditional martial arts and certainly many of the modern business concepts used in managed commercial schools were developed by Korean instructors. However, there was more to Grand Master Kim then you might first imagine. Grand Master Kim was also a 6th degree black belt in Hapkido (the Korean equivalent of traditional Jiu Jitsu) and a sifu in Praying Mantis kung fu. This diversified background was evident in his school, where students learned not only the kicks Taekwondo is famous for but also strikes, joint locks, throws, ground fighting and weapons.

This was of course years before the current modern mixed martial arts era. The school was also known its "old school" Korean style sparring with no pads and for producing many full contact Taekwondo champions. In one sense you might be tempted to say that I’ve studied with some unique instructors and that is why I evolved the way I did. The reality is that most people who grew up in the traditional martial arts have had similar experiences. We’ve always had elements of mixed martial arts in our training.

After studying with Grand Master Kim, for a variety of reasons I moved on to study with other instructors. I eventually became a student of the late Master Chan Tai San. I spent sixteen years with him and was formally adopted by him in a traditional Chinese martial arts ceremony known as “Baai Si”. Master Chan’s life read like a kung fu movie script. Orphaned as a child and adopted by a Buddhist monk, Chan Tai-San inherited lineages in both Tibetan Lama Pai and Choy Lay Fut as well as having studied with some of China's most famous masters including the "White Haired Devil" Baahk Mo Jyu (Hung Faht Pai), Cheung Lai-Chung (White Eyebrow), Mok Jing-Kui (Mok Ga), and Chan Sai-Mo (Choi Lei Faht). An encyclopedia of knowledge about traditional Chinese martial arts, the Chinese government designated Master Chan a "living national treasure" in the 1970's.

In other ways, Chan Tai San was not what the general public perceives as “traditional”. The fact that he did in fact study with many different teachers and learned many different methods defied the conventional loyalty to one master and one tradition. Chan Tai san was also not the conventional model of traditional martial art respect. Almost all of the teachers he studied with he first challenged to fights to see if they could defeat him. In his own words he told me that if a teacher couldn’t defeat him he didn’t feel there was much use in studying with him! Finally, Chan Tai San’s cross training was not limited to only Chinese martial arts; he studied Japanese Judo and western boxing.

During the period when I trained with Chan Tai San, I found him in many ways a paradox. He had traditional lineages, he taught many empty hand and weapon forms, and we engaged in many traditional practices like the “Baai Si” (formal adoption), Lion Dancing, Altar opening, etc. At the same time, he was well known for his many fights, in the street, in the military (serving during World War II, the Chinese civil war and the Cultural Revolution) and in inter-military sparring matches (San Da). He taught both traditional Chinese martial art, kung fu, and the contemporary San Da he had picked up in the Chinese military. We did a lot of training to fight and he always stressed cross training and having an open mind; concepts which are fundamental to San Da training.

Clearly, both of my primary instructors contributed in part to my ultimate evolution towards Mixed Martial Arts (MMA). However, as I’ve already stated, these elements are probably common to anyone who studied a serious Traditional Martial Art (TMA) for any significant period of time. I think, for me at least, one last element finally changed my path and sent me in the direction of Mixed Martial Arts (MMA).

In 1991, I relocated to Washington DC to pursue a masters’ degree. In New York, I had of course been training, helping Chan Tai San teach his classes and also had my own small group which I taught in dance studio space I rented on a part time basis. At the very least, I wanted to continue practicing but I was faced with only two choices. The first was a traditional kung fu school which unfortunately dedicated 95% of their time to practicing forms. The second was a Jeet Kune Do instructor who also studied with kickboxer Joe Lewis and Thai Boxing instructor Surachai "Chai" Sirisute. I chose the later, more interested in doing drills and sparring than learning more forms.

At this point, I had been training martial arts for fourteen years including western boxing, Taekwondo, Hapkido, Shuai Jiao (Mongolian wrestling), Hung Ga, Lama Pai and Choy Lay Fut. I knew some of the techniques they were doing. I also had “traditional” answers (i.e. defenses) for many of the techniques they were doing. I picked up the new material rather quickly. However, I became fixated on a single question that kept echoing in my brain; how many of the people I had trained back in New York or the people Chan Tai San was training had progressed far enough along in their traditional training that they could defeat this group of relatively beginner students doing what we had always believed were the relatively “primitive” techniques of Thai boxing? I decided not to delude myself and instead address the reality, the answer was; very few.

Upon my return to New York, I felt like a prophet bringing the gospel. I wanted to share with my class mates my observations and the techniques I had learned. Initially, I wanted to simply introduce a sort of side program, a collection of simple attacks and defenses that we’d introduce to the beginners as a sort of “back up” until they developed proficiency in the more complicated traditional techniques. I taught in the schools my classmates had opened while I had been in Washington DC.

In the years that followed my experiences training students contributed to my developing my ideas and my program more completely. Then, somewhat ironically because I had never been aware of them, a student brought me the first three UFC events on video tape. Unlike some people, in one sitting I sat down and watched Royce Gracie win all three events. My desire to learn more about Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and other ground fighting arts ultimately introduced me to literature on randori. In particular, a Judo coach in Michigan named Mark Tripp shared with me his understanding of what randori meant and explained to me why it wasn’t about “sport”. By the time I opened New York San Da in 2002, I had a developed idea of what I was all about, why I wanted to run a school and what I was going to teach.

[Becca]

Nice! You'll let us know when its available to buy, right? I always enjoy reading your insites, but hate wading through the cr@p posts that ends up on your threads.

[bodhitree]

Not to be too intrusive but could you let us know your age in some of these experiences? I've been thinking a lot recently about age, learning, peaking, adaptability, and how it all relates. Good write.

[lkfmdc]

At the time I didn't see it that way, but the first "martial art" i did was western boxing around 8.... then I did some karate and ended up at Pong Ki Kim around the age of 10. In high school I was training with him still but doing other things, ended up doing Hung Ga for example. I met Chan Tai San after I graduated high school. Dedicated myself to just training with Chan tai san by my third semester in college, dropped all other stuff I was doing. Went to Washington to do a graduate deegree, was 23 by then.... came back to NY at 25

[bodhitree]

Thanks, I like seeing things in perspective. What's your graduate degree in? c'mon man, this is a biography isn't it?:D

[BruceSteveRoy]

Just some thoughts:


My first formal martial arts instructor was the late Grand Master Pong Ki Kim. I began training with him around the age of ten and continued to study with him through high school. Grand Master Kim left a lasting impression on me and still influences me almost 30 years later. Grand Master Kim was an exceptional martial artist. He held the rank of 9th degree black belt in Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo and was a direct student of Moo Duk Kwan founder Hwang Kee. Grandmaster Kim was responsible in Korea for supervising the training in many of the Moo Duk Kwan schools and many instructors still active today in the United States began their training in Korea under Grand Master Kim.

Try using a pronoun in here somewhere. you state GM Kim's name so many times that it becomes slightly awkward to read.


This was of course years before the current modern mixed martial arts era.
redundant
The school was also known its "old school" Korean style sparring...
I think you are missing a 'for'

I think, for me at least, one last element finally changed my path and sent me in the direction of Mixed Martial Arts (MMA).
i think putting in 'for me at least" is unnecessary in this sentence since the focus of it is already you.

again jsut my opinions. i find this very interesting to read and am excited to see the full book. have you ever thought of writng a biography of CTS? or is there one already written?

[BruceSteveRoy]

I chose the later, more interested in doing drills and sparring than learning more forms.



sorry one other thing. this should be latter not later.

[lkfmdc]

it's hard to write something without an editor, so thanks

[MasterKiller]

Have you seen this article?

http://johngraden.com/John%20Graden%27s%20Blog/0A2F55E4-A993-4882-AA48-CD5CC7F0758A.html

[sanjuro_ronin]

Have you seen this article?

http://johngraden.com/John%20Graden%27s%20Blog/0A2F55E4-A993-4882-AA48-CD5CC7F0758A.html

I do agree with him, 100%.
But that also went for Boxing in its early days too.

[lkfmdc]

He sent out a similar email a month ago (advertising his MMA program!)


I responded on www.sanda-mma.com
(http://www.angelfire.com/sd2/kingofsanda/newbusiness.htm)

Some good, some bad

[lkfmdc]

This is likely the intro to the new book

Introduction:

This book was written for two different kinds of people. First, perhaps the majority who will read it, come from Traditional Martial Arts (TMA) but are interested in what Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) are really about and what potential benefits and new insights they offer. The second group is those who have already discovered Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) but have not yet been able to translate their love for this new approach to martial arts training into a viable program for their school. They may not realize it yet, but these two groups can benefit from each other and should be working together towards the future of all martial arts.

Traditional Martial Arts (TMA)
Vs.
Mixed Martial Arts (MMA)
Do you have to take sides?

In recent years, there has been growing tension between what people call Traditional Martial Arts (TMA) and the new Mixed Martial Arts (MMA). The new MMA movement has its share of aggressive advocates, often aggressively promoting what they do in ways that offends TMA practitioners. There is also a lot of truth in the claim that some TMA people are just too resistant to change. The new MMA movement is foreign to them and some feel threatened, increasingly so as MMA goes “mainstream.”

As a person with an extensive TMA background who now runs a Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) program as his school’s main curriculum I really want you to understand that in reality these are artificial distinctions. It isn’t about making a choice. There are no sides to take. If you are a martial artist, you should be thrilled to see the fighting arts finally getting the attention they deserve. You should also take this opportunity to re-invigorate your practice and your school.

If you haven’t already done so, sit down and watch a Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) event. Straight punches, hook punches, front kicks, round kicks, side kicks, foot sweeps, throws, takedowns, joint locks and chokes. These are techniques we’ve all practiced, which we have in our self defense programs, which we have in our forms, sets, Hyungs or Kata. Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) didn’t invent the techniques, but they do practice them differently. The difference between Traditional Martial Arts (TMA) and Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) is not “what” they train; it is “how” they train.

Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) is often dismissed as nothing more than a “sport”. Self appointed defenders of Traditional Martial Arts (TMA) insist that since “sports” have rules, have restrictions, have protective equipment, judges, referees and officials they are not really “martial arts”. By this they mean that so called “self defense” is about fighting in the street, where there are no rules. This is, in my opinion, a rather limited and uninformed view on the subject.
The vast majority of my students, approximately 90%, will NEVER engage in any sort of sport or competition. That isn’t what my school is about, but my school’s program is certainly a Mixed Martial Art (MMA) program! My school’s entire curriculum, like all MMA programs, is built upon the importance of functional training. Today there are a lot of ways to describe this concept, but I actually prefer the term Dr. Jigoro Kano, the founder of Judo, coined. Dr. Kano was the grandfather of Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) and without him we would not have Judo, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Sambo or San Da. The term Dr. Kano used was “randori”.

Randori is different from sport and/or competition (which Dr. Kano called “shiai”). Everyone who does Judo practices randori while many never engage in competition. Randori means practicing the techniques in a realistic manner with resistance. It is commonly thought of as “sparring” but the concept is actually much broader. Only through such training can a student develop functional skills and learn to confront the stress and adrenaline a real fight will present them with.

Those who argue that a sport or competition is more limited than a life-or-death conflict on the street are missing the point. It is IMPOSSIBLE to recreate those situations, so how can we best prepare our students for a situation they have never faced before? Regardless of what you want to call it (randori, “live” training, sparring, sport or competition) the process is what is important. It is not about winning or losing. They are simply relatively safe methods of engaging in situations which, while certainly not identical to an assault, approach these conditions as much as reasonably possible. The process is what is important.

Consider what you would need to survive a life-or-death conflict? First, you would need the tools, offensive and defensive, to get the job done. Second, you must be proficient enough in the techniques to use them upon an opponent who is knowledgeable, resisting them and also attempting to launch their own attack. This ability requires not only perfecting the technique but developing your sense of space and range, the ability to see openings, reaction time and personal strategy. Include into this equation the possibility that the opponent may be using techniques and strategies different than your own.

Finally, do you have both the physical and mental condition to engage in a struggle such as this? Do you have the strength, endurance, flexibility? Do you have the determination? Will you fall apart under the stress and adrenaline rush, freeze and forget everything you have learned? It has certainly happened in the past to many practitioners. Remember, if you have not been hit or thrown full power (slamming into the ground) you don’t know how you will react to conditions such as these. This is a reality very few students studying Traditional Martial Arts (TMA) are forced to deal with in current programs.

Despite criticisms of the limitation of combat sports, they do in fact provide experiences that are hard to replace with more traditional methods of training like forms or pre-arranged attack and defense. A boxer has been punched so many times that he no longer freezes when a blow connects. A wrestler or Judo fighter has been thrown many times and is accustomed to it. These three individuals are also used to exchange, working with an opponent who is both defending and attacking. They are also used to performing under high stress conditions and for extended periods of time. They benefit from experience gained by competition, i.e. sporting adaptations of what were once strictly combat/self-defense methods. Thus, combat sports allow the student to develop the “attributes” of a warrior, including the appropriate mental attitude.

In conclusion, it is a mistake to think that Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) programs are based upon sport or competition. Sport and/or competition are for some a natural extension of randori (live practice) but it is not the central concept of the program. The central concept of a Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) program is randori (live practice); heavy bag, focus mitt, Thai pad and partner drills that are realistic and challenge the student with progressively increasingly levels of resistance.

For these reasons, I do not see any contradiction between being an instructor of a Traditional Martial Art (TMA) and yet still incorporating the Mixed Martial Art (MMA) approach to training. In fact, if you are an instructor who really cares about his students then you should be excited to discover new ways to help them be the very best martial artists they can be. This book will serve as your guide in this process.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Nice post, very nice.

I have never been a MMA fan, to me I see too much of the "jack of all trades and master of none" in it.
I am however a HUGE fan of cross training.
Then, after the basics from cross training are nice and solid, apply them withing a MMA training and sparring context.
Yes, most TMA reading this will see that this is how it was done in the "old days".
TMA and MMA complement themselves.
You can't have MMA without TMA and th ebest way to test your TMA is MMA training.

Competition is great, it gives you an added flavour to your training, not needed per say, BUT it makes the "learning curve" much less pronounced.

[lkfmdc]

the book is part of my "network" and I'm hoping to have it ready by the August camp.... it has theory, philosophy, technique, a little personality... but I think more importantly, it has things like lesson plans, how to set up a program, how to teach a class, how to be a better teacher.... things I think are really missing in MA literature these days

of course, no fluff, straight to the point

[street_fighter]

awesome! looking forward to it. sounds like it should be required reading for all TMA.

[MasterKiller]

the book is part of my "network" and I'm hoping to have it ready by the August camp....

You better get busy! Tick tick tick tick....

[SevenStar]

will mods get a free copy?

[MasterKiller]

will mods get a free copy?

Only mods in the MMA forum, sucka!

[bodhitree]

will mods get a free copy?

I know one mod that if he doesn't get a free copy or his local library doesn't have it, he's probably not going to read it...

[lkfmdc]

will mods get a free copy?

it mught be able to be arranged

[SevenStar]

Eat that, MK! :p

[Notintheface]

All I have to say is sell it as an E-book :) all profit...... no overhead or wait.... does the internet have a ceiling?

[Fu-Pow]

Agree with most of it, but........


The new MMA movement has its share of aggressive advocates, often aggressively promoting what they do in ways that offends TMA practitioners.

What's offensive is when MMA practitioners want to claim that all martial arts begins and ends with the MMA. In reality MMA is the old TMA in most respects.


There is also a lot of truth in the claim that some TMA people are just too resistant to change. The new MMA movement is foreign to them and some feel threatened, increasingly so as MMA goes “mainstream.”

I'd say there are two camps within the "resistance" camps:

1) Those who are reluctant to change because it would require reexamining the effectiveness of what they do.

2) Those who already have a MMA approach within the context of TMA and see no reason to change.

The vast majority of my students, approximately 90%, will NEVER engage in any sort of sport or competition. That isn’t what my school is about, but my school’s program is certainly a Mixed Martial Art (MMA) program! My school’s entire curriculum, like all MMA programs, is built upon the importance of functional training.

And that's part of the reason I laugh at some of the people on this board that call themselves MMAists, are supporters of the approach or whatever BUT...and that's a big BUT...never engage in competition. They live vicarously through other people that risk getting their clocks cleaned but never do so themselves. Yet they will rigorously defend their techniques/approach as more "scientific" than traditional methods of training.

This is a matter of degree, not of either/or. Do you take Chuck Lidell's approach or do you take Wong Fei Hung's approach? Wong Fei Hung is gone but his approach survives him by 200 years. Chuck Lidell is still around, we know his approach but we still have no idea if people without his athleticism can pull off what he does.

So I think in order for us to call ANY martial arts training program "scientific " it has to be empiric. If you want to make claims about what MMA training can do then you need to be able to back that up with YOUR experience of it...not live vicariously through other people and then make claims about MMA based on what THEY can do.


Randori is different from sport and/or competition (which Dr. Kano called “shiai”). Everyone who does Judo practices randori while many never engage in competition. Randori means practicing the techniques in a realistic manner with resistance.

Well in an art like Taiji, resisting is the last thing you want to do. So totally inappropriate. You can get quite aggressive with Tui Shou though but not resisting.

[Notintheface]

Please for the love of god set him straight lkfmdc. He wasn't going to buy your book anyways!!!

o I think in order for us to call ANY martial arts training program "scientific " it has to be empiric. If you want to make claims about what MMA training can do then you need to be able to back that up with YOUR experience of it...not live vicariously through other people and then make claims about MMA based on what THEY can do.

Dude take your own advice. Once I finish my Comps exams I will be competing in the next Naga or anything I can get my hands on. When I do i'll post the results. Someone please quote this :)

1) Those who are reluctant to change because it would require reexamining the effectiveness of what they do.

2) Those who already have a MMA approach within the context of TMA and see no reason to change.


hehe He falls under both categories loll......

Has this guy ever been to an MMA oriented schools?


MMAists, are supporters of the approach or whatever BUT...and that's a big BUT...never engage in competition. They live vicarously through other people that risk getting their clocks cleaned but never do so themselves

They may not compete but any MMA school worth its salt will fight and train full contact. FFS pull your head out of your arse and open your eyes.

**** if Bruce Lee was with us today he would probably look at what JKD has become and say WTF.

Bruce would probably be sitting next to me in a hot tub, sucking jello shots out of a sexy girls ass, while calling Tito Ortiz on his new Iphone to set up a training session plus he would be wearing a tap out T-shirt .!!!!

oh and someone give him the definition of em·pir·ic (m-pîrk)
n.
1. One who is guided by practical experience rather than precepts or theory.
2. An unqualified or dishonest practitioner; a charlatan.
adj.

Pratical experience and not on untested THEORY and PRECEPTS...sigh

We don't live vicariously through anyone, it is apparent in any MMA mind set school. Fight with a person, who trains with the MMA mindset, supposedly equal to your level and see if you come out victorious. Invite his ass down to your school Ross and put him in one of your MMA sparring classes please.............

Damit will someone please just arghhhhhh!!!!

Well in an art like Taiji, resisting is the last thing you want to do. So totally inappropriate. You can get quite aggressive with Tui Shou though but not resisting.

[bodhitree]

Well in an art like Taiji, resisting is the last thing you want to do. So totally inappropriate. You can get quite aggressive with Tui Shou though but not resisting.

by resisting he means an opponent who is trying to do the same thing to you that you are to him. Ex. Judo, you are trying to throw your opponent, your opponent is trying to throw you. Relaxation and using your opponents momentum in Judo are also ideal, but the realistic nature of randori quickly shows how difficult it can be to be relaxed while being attacked.

[Samurai Jack]

In recent years, there has been growing tension between what people call Traditional Martial Arts (TMA) and the new Mixed Martial Arts (MMA). The new MMA movement has its share of aggressive advocates, often aggressively promoting what they do in ways that offends TMA practitioners. There is also a lot of truth in the claim that some TMA people are just too resistant to change. The new MMA movement is foreign to them and some feel threatened, increasingly so as MMA goes “mainstream.”


It's cool that you are working on this Ross. I feel you are in a unique position to address some major issues in the MMA vs. TMA movement, but I think you are missing one very major point here, that I and many others would like to see addressed:

99% of the reason that many traditionalists do not like MMA is due to the attitude displayed by its proponents. From the very first time I saw Royce Gracie and his family insulting his opponents publicly in the UFC I knew this was not something I wanted to engage in or support. There was, and is a certain lack of sportsmanship prevalent in the movement. Courage, humility, and respect have given way to bravado, egotism, and a disregard for one's opponent.

I have a background in many of the arts and sports that MMA has elected to pull it's skill sets from, but I've never seen such behavior espoused in a judo tournament or a boxing match (Tyson is the exception, not the rule).

Over the years, I've watched the proponents of MMA grow in number on this very board, even as the writings of the involved individuals have degenerated. I can only guess that these personality changes may be related to an adoption of the “Pro Wrestling” chest thumping that their professional MMA role models often display.

This indicates the single most distinctive difference between a traditional martial art, emphasizing respect and self-development, and the modern American mixed martial arts, emphasizing winning at all costs.

Indeed, as you pointed out, "The difference between Traditional Martial Arts (TMA) and Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) is not 'what' they train; it is 'how' they train."

Do you care to address this issue?

[bodhitree]

Samurai Jack

That is a tough issue. I struggled with that (attitude and such) while transitioning from TMA to more sport oriented MA. There are things here on this site I've said recently that the year I joined I would have never said. That being said I feel I've grown as a martial artist an as a person (after the initial struggle). I am very fortunate to have found a skilled group of decent people to train with.

I know a lot of great people who train MMA. I'm not saying they are lacking anything. Out of curiosity I made a thread a few months ago about moral development and MA. My conclusion for myself is that I can use martial arts as a tool for moral development, but it shouldn't be the only tool and it is not that way for everyone else.

Good Point.

[lkfmdc]

99% of the reason that many traditionalists do not like MMA is due to the attitude displayed by its proponents. From the very first time I saw Royce Gracie and his family insulting his opponents publicly in the UFC I knew this was not something I wanted to engage in or support.



Well, thank lord there are no A Holes in TMA :rolleyes:

Anything that has more than 2 people in, some are going to be A HOLES...

If that so prevents you from learning something new and examing new possibilities, that shows you are very limited IMHO

[yutyeesam]

Do you care to address this issue?

He does address this issue on his website, here (http://www.angelfire.com/sd2/kingofsanda/newbusiness.htm)...

[Samurai Jack]

Well, thank lord there are no A Holes in TMA :rolleyes:

Anything that has more than 2 people in, some are going to be A HOLES...

If that so prevents you from learning something new and examing new possibilities, that shows you are very limited IMHO

Martial Arts don't have to be devoid of moral values to be effective in combat, so I don't see how my refusal to train with people I feel lack character is a limitation. I understand that it's highly unlikely that everyone who practices a MMA is a jerk, but it has been my observation that many of the top people in the field have displayed extremely odious behavior publicly.

My view as to what is usually being objected to by traditionalists in MMA is valid, and accurate. I asked the question not to stir up more unpleasantness, but because I was under the impression that you were trying to present a balanced view of the MMA vs. TMA conflict.

He does address this issue on his website, here (http://www.angelfire.com/sd2/kingofsanda/newbusiness.htm)...

Hey, thanks. That's a good article. Maybe some of that could be worked into the book.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Actually, the hype and the a-holes aside, sport MA tend to have nicer and more down to earth people than TMA that are full of tree huggin hippies and tea drinking butt munchers.


:D

[lkfmdc]

it has been my observation that many of the top people in the field have displayed extremely odious behavior publicly.



you need to get out more, MMA is full of great people. Randy Couture, Matt Serra, George St Pierre, the Rua brothers, the list goes on....

[MasterKiller]

As a staff member of KFM and a moderator on this forum, let me remind people to keep it civil and try to remain on topic.

Otherwise, Gene's hammer drops.

[Fu-Pow]

As a staff member of KFM and a moderator on this forum, let me remind people to keep it civil and try to remain on topic.

Otherwise, Gene's hammer drops.

I'd call that a conflict of interest.

[MasterKiller]

I'd call that a conflict of interest.

Call it what you want. Everyone has been warned.

[SifuAbel]

The fact that he did [in fact](redundant :p ) study with many different teachers and learned many different methods defied the conventional loyalty to one master and one tradition.

The more I delve into the histories of accomplished MAists, like your teacher, the more disconnected this idea of "one style only" becomes. My teacher , my teacher's teachers, and so on, trained in various systems. I can't really think of anyone that I have trained with over the years that only did one style.

[Fu-Pow]

Call it what you want. Everyone has been warned.

And I have just emailed Gene personally about having you removed as mod.

FP

[MasterKiller]

And I have just emailed Gene personally about having you removed as mod.

FP

Well, I would hope you wouldn't email him impersonally.

[SifuAbel]

D,

These posts are very well written and echo things I, and others, have been saying for years.

One disconnect, however, is in the "How they train" statement about MMA. Athleticism, conditioning, resistance training isn't an MMA concept, strictly. It is only used as a contrast because of the degenration in TODAYS TMA. So it would fairer to say that MMA holds this distinction over some of the TMA that is practiced NOW.

Another disconnect is on the MMA side that seems to imply that the self same weak people can just take up MMA and solve all their shortcomings. A tactic borrowed, albeit, from TMA.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The more I delve into the histories of accomplished MAists, like your teacher, the more disconnected this idea of "one style only" becomes. My teacher , my teacher's teachers, and so on, trained in various systems. I can't really think of anyone that I have trained with over the years that only did one style.

Here, here.

[lkfmdc]

One disconnect, however, is in the "How they train" statement about MMA. Athleticism, conditioning, resistance training isn't an MMA concept, strictly. It is only used as a contrast because of the degenration in TODAYS TMA. So it would fairer to say that MMA holds this distinction over some of the TMA that is practiced NOW.

Another disconnect is on the MMA side that seems to imply that the self same weak people can just take up MMA and solve all their shortcomings. A tactic borrowed, albeit, from TMA.

Well, the first and foremost concern is that what elements of resistance, conditioning, etc that were part of TMA are fading away pretty rapidly. This isn't just us old ****s talking about "da old days" it is a very real occurance.

However, I think that what elements did exist in the old school were random and inconsistent. Did old schools spar? Yes, but how often? Did they wrestle? Yes, but how often? Did the instructor teach them how to spar or simply let them do it "on the side"?

regarding the second point, people who are teachers need to learn to teach. Wrapping laziness in a zen robe and talking about how a student has to learn on his own is simply nonsense.

One of the thing this book will do is introduce concepts on lesson planning, instruction, running classes, etc.... stuff that modern coaches keep close to the heart but the traditional instructor is oblivious to

[SifuAbel]

One of the thing this book will do is introduce concepts on lesson planning, instruction, running classes, etc.... stuff that modern coaches keep close to the heart but the traditional instructor is oblivious to

I think this is a rather unfair statement.

[lkfmdc]

I think this is a rather unfair statement.

Do you know what you are teaching tomorrow?
How about all this week?
How about all this month?
How about next month?

Do you have contingency plans for how to adjust curriculum based upon student performance?

When was the last time you particpated in continuing education?

Are you CPR certified?


etc....

[SifuAbel]

Of course.

[Notintheface]

One of the thing this book will do is introduce concepts on lesson planning, instruction, running classes, etc.... stuff that modern coaches keep close to the heart but the MAJORITY traditional instructor is oblivious to


Edited for the .001 TMA teachers that keep a lesson plan book, condition journals,Fighter's progression chart, ect ,ect. Most combat coaches are just that coaches. They just don't come into class and say stretch, 100 sit up, 100 push ups, and now on to kicks.

A coach has to keep track of his fighters strengths and weakness and develop a game plan to strengthen those weakness while keeping their strong points sharp.

Now imagine a coach dealing with those same factors but increase the size from a few people to a whole club, like lkfmdc's club. Now he probably has a staff, but he still has to maintain marketing, dues processing (that is if he doesn't use a billing company) but then he still has to keep on top of them. For those that don't know the things I mentioned is only 2 things out of myriad of things a club owner/business owner will do on any given day.

Most martial arts clubs a lot of teachers/coaches just walk on the mat and decide right then and there what they are going to teach. How many teachers do you know say we don't do stretching or cardio... it is up to student to do that before class because they don't want to waste class time?

Then he has to maintain a training regiment to suit all club members. Each club member will be looking for something specific and desire to reach some goal. It his job to steer them towards the proper course that would benefit them the most. Once that has occurred he then has to constantly keep the training fresh and progressive. constantly keeping track of each class and the level of progression on a macro level as well as a micro level. A good coach would also be constantly looking for new and improved methods to help his member increase their results.

All of that is just the tip of the iceberg, maintaining staff integrity and motivation, making sure asst. coaches are performing according to club standard as well as keeping them from burn out. He does this all the while he maintains his composure instead of running into the middle of the club and scream out "Look at me I'm pretty little girl!"

[Royal Dragon]

regarding the second point, people who are teachers need to learn to teach. Wrapping laziness in a zen robe and talking about how a student has to learn on his own is simply nonsense

Reply]
YES!! Thank You!!! I have been saying this for years now!!

I have been around along time, seen a lot of schools, and to this day, I have not even ONCE seen a Traditional school, or teacher that knows hoiw to run a simple basic warmup correctly. There is an order to the movements to properly bring a wstudent form ice cold, to fully warmed up...and pushups/ situps are not in that picture.

I have never even seen a TCMA teacher who knows the various stages of the training, or can actually identify them.

Most don't know what a warm up is, or what conditioning is, or what the differece between the two are. I can not tell you how many times I see teachers jump stright into conditioning, no warm up at all, and then call THAT the warmup.


Teachers need to know the difference between structure training, mechanics, skill work, conditioning, and even the various TYPES of conditioning. For example, VERY few now that there are more than one type of endurance, and each has completely different ways to train them.

I can't tell you how many times I have heard "Such and such exercise makes you stronger", when it's an endurance based exercise (For example)

All this needs to be broken down into it's base understandings and explained in a way that today's teachers can grasp.....because there are just too many out there that do that stupid "grind the knees" exercises as the first thing, call it a warm up exercise, when it's really a range of motion exercise (And they just don't know any better), that really needs to be thrown the f'n out and NEVER used because it does nothing positve, and it grinds the cartilage down over time more than anything, ESPECIALLY when done first thing when you are ice cold.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What schools have you guys been visiting ???

[monji112000]

teaching or coaching is art.

I know some amazing fighters, who are not "good" teachers. I know a few great teachers.. who can't fight.

I know only a very small amount of teachers/coaches who have the skills, knowledge, and are able to teach/coach.

Tooo many teachers in MA as a whole.

[Fu-Pow]

[I]

Most don't know what a warm up is, or what conditioning is, or what the differece between the two are. I can not tell you how many times I see teachers jump stright into conditioning, no warm up at all, and then call THAT the warmup.

In my last school the teacher decided that it would be better to warm up with ballistic movements and bouncing stretches:rolleyes:

The thing is that without any scientific foundation in TCMA there is no standard for what is "right" and what is "wrong."

And the student teacher relationship is such that if you even bring up some point based on science you will be regarded as challenging your teachers authority. That's the "old school" mentality.

FP

[Becca]

Several of our Sifu are medical professionals. All of them must go through formal training in proper teaching meathods that include both old school and new school thoughts on training and conitioning. We are expected to warm ourselves up before class, but they make a point of teaching you how to do that correctlywhile still in the begginer's class. Several times a year class is dedicated to how to care for common injuries and the proper uses of commonly used liniments. They also make a point of teaching us how to know when you need a doctor rather than just R.I.C.E. I actually got to be a training dummy for one last week since I had some lovely blisters on my feet.

Perhaps this is the difference between a Burger Kwoon and a real school. I don't imagine the Burger Kwoon takes the time to make sure they are doing it right.

[lkfmdc]

I really do hope they are licenses medical professionals if they are in fact handing out liniments for use

[Becca]

Yes, the one's who choose that path are licensed. I'm not sure why being licensed would be nessisary to showing the proper way to use jow, but, hey...

Seems to be pretty common for SIs to become interested in sports medicine and/or acupuncture and seek formal training. Most who seek the training become licensed practitioners in time. Another common route for students, not just SIs, is to get into massage therapy, EMT, nursing, ect. I've always taken the strong encouragment to do so as a good sign.:)

[Ben Gash]

Are you CPR certified?


etc....

I'm advanced life support trained baby ;)