Leg kicks=leg breaks

[Shaolin Wookie]

Injuries are part of fighting, and certain practitioners are more likely to hurt themselves in certain ways than others, depending on hte manner of the strike, and how the power is generated.

I've seen four or five separate videos "(tracked 3 down) of legs breaking in half during round kicks to an opponent's leg.

It's really, really, gross, so only look if you wish to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDR4i_4DeC8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxgC6S9oUKE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W5RI3peGLY
(2 mins. in)

I am curious to know whether any of you have seen this firsthand, whether this is somewhate common, and whether it points out a serious flaw in using the shin for kicks that might be a little too hard for practicality. I'm not really trolling, I swear. But in kung-fu, I don't ever recall hearing anyone discuss a shin kick. Sometimes people do them in sparring, but I've never heard them discussed, by a teacher, as a good kicking surface.

Kicking with the foot: obviously, breaks happen. But I wouldn't call them crippling breaks, for the most part. It depends on where the break occurs. If you were fighting, you still have a chance of surviving the encounter, or hobbling away, etc. But here.....holy crap, that has to hurt......I feel bad for those guys, and as grossed out as their opponents were.

For the sake of discussion: Here we have 3 videos of practitioners making clean, crippling breaks to the shin, where the bone is completely severed, and hte foot is just dangling inside a kind of flesh-sock. We can assume that if something's been caught on national TV at least three times in a ring fight, it has to happen much more on a wider circuit, in training dojos, amateur fights, sparring sessions.

I've also seen that leg kick break someone else's leg.

Is it a flaw in the kick, the way it was used (where on the shin to make contact), or in the practitioner (not enough conditioning of bone density to take that kind of contact)?

Discuss, if this is in any way interesting.

[Black Jack II]

Yes, I saw a break like in vid number 2 during practice, round kick came in and caught a bone shield as in the vid.

Personally I don't work the round kick to any great degree anymore, its powerfull as hell and nasty by those skilled in its use, but for me I feel from a straight street self defense agenda it leaves me more open, than the low line straight kicks I use.

I don't see those breaks as being a flaw, first one came in low and missed the thigh and went shin to knee it seems, second one was a classic defense, third I can't really say, sometimes that's just how the percentages fall.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The break usually happens when the kicker kicks in an "upward" angle making contact with the FLAT of HIS shin bone on the HARD EDGE of the blockers shin bone.
That is why good MT teachers teach to kick IN or Down, but NEVER UP.

[Black Jack II]

Good point, both the first kicks were coming up in the clips, at least its how they appeared, but again in a stress based situation, as combative sports just showcased, sometimes the perfect principle of technique goes out the window.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Good point, both the first kicks were coming up in the clips, at least its how they appeared, but again in a stress based situation, as combative sports just showcased, sometimes the perfect principle of technique goes out the window.

All to true, hence the RIGHT way has to be drilled and drilled and drilled and on harder bags and while I understand the need for shin guards when sparring, the bad habits they create have to be taken into account.

[MasterKiller]

The break usually happens when the kicker kicks in an "upward" angle making contact with the FLAT of HIS shin bone on the HARD EDGE of the blockers shin bone.
That is why good MT teachers teach to kick IN or Down, but NEVER UP.

Up kicks are taught as "cutting kicks," and down kicks are taught as "chopping kicks." Two different methods.

[Royal Dragon]

As far as I can tell my style does not even have the roundhouse kick. I've never seen it in any of the forms (And I have a lot of them documented from all over China, in addition to the few I actually do).

Kicks are front snap, normal ones + the pushing version. Stop Kick/kneebreak also known as the "no Shadow" Kick, We also have the inside, and outside crescent kick and sevral vesions of a side kick as well as the back kick and some kicks that are really trips & sweeps, but *look* like kicks in the forms.

[SevenStar]

I was taught to kick upward, inward and downward. upward generally targets the ribs. downward, the head and lowerbody. Inward can be used for them all. The suitcase kick is also done inward.

[SevenStar]

Up kicks are taught as "cutting kicks," and down kicks are taught as "chopping kicks." Two different methods.


a cut kick in muay thai is a roundhouse to the supporting leg of an opponent who is kicking at you. You are kicking out their supporting leg, hopefully knocking them down.

[Becca]

The break usually happens when the kicker kicks in an "upward" angle making contact with the FLAT of HIS shin bone on the HARD EDGE of the blockers shin bone.
That is why good MT teachers teach to kick IN or Down, but NEVER UP.
Same thing I've heard my Sifu saw dozens of times, for every type of kick. "Don't rise up on the tip toe or you fall on you butt. Don't float the kick or you'll connect where you shouldn't. Either way, you're dead in a real fight."

My Sifu's such an optomist.;)

[MasterKiller]

a cut kick in muay thai is a roundhouse to the supporting leg of an opponent who is kicking at you. You are kicking out their supporting leg, hopefully knocking them down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlkUlA96g2Y

[yenhoi]

We also define a cut kick as a kick to the support leg, not any upward kick.

Its very rare for someone to break their leg using a shin kick. In almost every case, the kicker is doing one or more things wrong, and in other cases has had other injuries to the leg or some sort of medical problem with their bones.

3 videos out of how many? Very rare.

Drill correctly and kick correctly, no problems.

:eek:

[Mr Punch]

The suitcase kick is also done inward.The suitcase kick...? Are you taking the ****? WTF is that? :D

a cut kick in muay thai is a roundhouse to the supporting leg of an opponent who is kicking at you. You are kicking out their supporting leg, hopefully knocking them down.So does that go up, or does it depend?

...in other cases has had other injuries to the leg or some sort of medical problem with their bones.Good point. I haven't checked (I'm at work and can't watch vids) whether it's one of these, but it probably is: there's one of these vids floating around (maybe the oldest on the net) where the kicking guy who's leg broke had stress fractures in his shin anyway and the quacks said he had a calcium deficiency syndrome.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The videos show low round kicks being blocked by shins, not cut kicks, not body kicks.

I have never heard any decent MT coach tell you to kick "upward" on a low round to the thigh, I did how ever get slapped in the head by Chai when I did that at a seminar and hear " you wanna break leg boy?".

[Becca]

The suitcase kick...? Are you taking the ****? WTF is that? :D


I've heard a hook kick called a suitcase kick. Like another name for an axe kick is the lotus kick. Just a name thing...:)

[SevenStar]

I've heard a hook kick called a suitcase kick. Like another name for an axe kick is the lotus kick. Just a name thing...:)

those are both new to me. I've never heard a hook called that. Where I took cma, the lotus kick was a type of jumping axe. the spinning hook in muay thai is "crocodile whips its tail". I can't recall how to say it in thai...

[SevenStar]

The videos show low round kicks being blocked by shins, not cut kicks, not body kicks.

I have never heard any decent MT coach tell you to kick "upward" on a low round to the thigh, I did how ever get slapped in the head by Chai when I did that at a seminar and hear " you wanna break leg boy?".

nor have I.

[SevenStar]

The suitcase kick...? Are you taking the ****? WTF is that? :D

it's a roundhouse variation. it's done with more bend in the leg and is used on a frontal surface like the stomach, or more commonly, the front of the quads. I am guessing the name came from the use of suitcase pads to train the kick, however, you can use a suitcase pad on the side of the leg as well...

So does that go up, or does it depend?

always inward.

[Becca]

those are both new to me. I've never heard a hook called that. Where I took cma, the lotus kick was a type of jumping axe. the spinning hook in muay thai is "crocodile whips its tail". I can't recall how to say it in thai...
Yep, and combined with a wheel kick, you get a croc roll. I busted my nose driving my face into the ground the first time I got up the nerve to complete it. there is no doing at half speed; its an all or nothing move. :D

My style calls any axe kick a lotus kick.

[Becca]

it's a roundhouse variation. it's done with more bend in the leg and is used on a frontal surface like the stomach, ...
Interesting... I've always heard this one called a side thrust kick. Are you using the ball of the foot or the outside edge to make contact?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Interesting... I've always heard this one called a side thrust kick. Are you using the ball of the foot or the outside edge to make contact?

I think he is refering to the triangle kick a cross between a front and a round kick.

[Becca]

Ah. Makes more sence now. Amazing how we all know the same basic kicks, but call them something different.:D

[SevenStar]

Interesting... I've always heard this one called a side thrust kick. Are you using the ball of the foot or the outside edge to make contact?

no, it's not a side kick at all. it is a roundhouse and connects with the shin.

[SevenStar]

I think he is refering to the triangle kick a cross between a front and a round kick.

I hate that kick. this kick is more roundhouse like than a triangle kick.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I hate that kick. this kick is more roundhouse like than a triangle kick.

I would have said the "no-shadow kick" but then all the Wong nutriders would throw a fit !!

[Becca]

no, it's not a side kick at all. it is a roundhouse and connects with the shin.

Dam. Now I'm confused again. A roundhose done with a slight bend in the knee that connects with the shin is still a roundhouse, just conected a bit close in. Yes? No?:confused:

A triangle kick is a side kick done with the swinging lower leg found in a chamered roundhouse, but still conecting with the edge of the foot. A roundhouse has more of a whipping motion and connects with the top of the foot.

A pillow kick, as I used to understand it, is similar to this, but you "dig" the ball of the foot into soft tissue (similar to trying to get gum off the bottom of your shoe), rather than thrust through like a side kick or whip at the flanks like a roundhouse. Hence the term pillow.

[stricker]

we're talking about the bent-leg thai kick right? sorta halfway between a knee and a round kick...

about the kicking up thing, anyone kick up to the inside of the opponent lead thigh?

[SevenStar]

Dam. Now I'm confused again. A roundhose done with a slight bend in the knee that connects with the shin is still a roundhouse, just conected a bit close in. Yes? No?:confused:


yeah, that's all it is. something similiar is done from the clinch - the half knee, or half knee half shin (http://books.google.com/books?id=PMCHQ9CZGIYC&pg=PT182&ots=ZmIUXXH4Ag&dq=muay+thai+%22half+knee%22&sig=VUcJgG6n9y-I0HjsKJPVpUIdPMU#PPT182,M1)

when done as a kick rather than in clinch range, it is a suitcase kick.

[SevenStar]

we're talking about the bent-leg thai kick right? sorta halfway between a knee and a round kick...

bingo.

about the kicking up thing, anyone kick up to the inside of the opponent lead thigh?

I do, but I was never taught to. by kicking up, you can sometimes lift that leg and move it, knocking them off balance. I only do it with my lead leg kick.

[stricker]

bingo.



I do, but I was never taught to. by kicking up, you can sometimes lift that leg and move it, knocking them off balance. I only do it with my lead leg kick.

yeah i musta posted a few seconds before you did about the half-kick half-knee. that book link shows it as a clinch tactic to prevent knees, i didnt realise that WAS the kick, i thought it was 2 seperate techniques, one the kick and the second using the shin as a bar in the clinch... anwyay.

yeah i've been taught to kick up to the inside of the thigh with the lead leg, usually off a jab and a step. i thought thats why when some thais move their lead leg back it goes up and around so it doesnt get caught...

[stricker]

also, i was taught it was more of a thing to hurt, its quite a tender area under the thigh... making the kick more of a low round to the leg would split the legs like a sweep i guess

[Becca]

yeah, that's all it is. something similiar is done from the clinch - the half knee, or half knee half shin (http://books.google.com/books?id=PMCHQ9CZGIYC&pg=PT182&ots=ZmIUXXH4Ag&dq=muay+thai+%22half+knee%22&sig=VUcJgG6n9y-I0HjsKJPVpUIdPMU#PPT182,M1)

when done as a kick rather than in clinch range, it is a suitcase kick.
Ah, yes. I was thinking of the correct thing. Thanks!

[SifuAbel]

Back to the PROBLEM with these three individuals.

The common thread between these three videos is the presence of the "floppy" foot.

Throwing the kick with a floppy relaxed foot without pointing the toe. Hence no tightening of the calf muscles, hence, no muscular mass supporting the bones. Hence, snap. I have heard this from MT people before, "the shins are like hitting with a bat." But without the muscular support its like hitting with a corked bat.

In the real skinny guy's case, it was not having enough calf to begin with. Twig legs.

----------------


Hitting with "the foot" is also too vague. One points the toe to hit with the instep no lower than the outer heel line. You don;t want to hit any lower than this, it would torque your ankle.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Interesting. Out of curiousity....in many one-legged stances where the raised leg is chambered in front of the body....is that the reason the toes are usually pointed towards the floor?

I have no idea....just asking people better informed than I.

[MasterKiller]

Interesting. Out of curiousity....in many one-legged stances where the raised leg is chambered in front of the body....is that the reason the toes are usually pointed towards the floor?

I have no idea....just asking people better informed than I.

When sparring/fighting, you should not chamber the leg in front of the body, you should chamber it toward the kick. If you chamber directly in front of you, ala Crane Stance, the landing kick can spin your body and leave your vulnerable.

You want to meet their shin with your shin.

But, yeah, toes down tightens the leg muscles and also prevents broken/jammed toes.

[Shaolin Wookie]

When I see full contact karate, I see a verson of the shinkick, but it looks more like they're striking with the inside of the foot, or with the heel (toes pointed at the sky).

I can't tell if I'm seeing it wrong, or if that's the actual technique.

Anyone know?

[SevenStar]

When sparring/fighting, you should not chamber the leg in front of the body, you should chamber it toward the kick. If you chamber directly in front of you, ala Crane Stance, the landing kick can spin your body and leave your vulnerable.

You want to meet their shin with your shin.

this is correct.

But, yeah, toes down tightens the leg muscles and also prevents broken/jammed toes.

this may be personal preference. I have had people stress that the toes should not point down while blocking, however they should point when striking. OTOH I have also had teachers stress pointing the foot. Not pointing them is more in line with thai footwork and also the ram muay.

[SevenStar]

a cut kick in muay thai is a roundhouse to the supporting leg of an opponent who is kicking at you. You are kicking out their supporting leg, hopefully knocking them down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83AEG4wtyRA&mode=related&search=

this particular variation is actually called a submarine kick. If the guy was kicking, and his support leg was kicked, that is called a cut kick.

[Becca]

Very nice find 7*! It also demonstrated the need to really train the half moon jump. The only way I know to not crumble when a shin hits the inner calve is to not let it hit. :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83AEG4wtyRA&mode=related&search=

this particular variation is actually called a submarine kick. If the guy was kicking, and his support leg was kicked, that is called a cut kick.

Nice move, BUt his foot is angle wrong on that clip, I assume because he isn't really kicking, on this one you can see the correct angle of his kicking foot and how the low kick comes IN and never UP.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5h4KDpH5wYQ&mode=related&search=

[MasterKiller]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83AEG4wtyRA&mode=related&search=

this particular variation is actually called a submarine kick. If the guy was kicking, and his support leg was kicked, that is called a cut kick.
And yet the same guy calls this a cut kick, which is the same video I posted 2 pages back:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlkUlA96g2Y

[sanjuro_ronin]

And yet the same guy calls this a cut kick, which is the same video I posted 2 pages back:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlkUlA96g2Y

Hmmm, no matter how conditioned, a simple look at the anatomical weakness of the shin bone tells us that hitting with the flat part rather than the edge, is not a good idea.
Sure if all it hits is meat, ideally.
heck Ideally I can take someone out with a flying crotch attack !
Would I recommend it?
Nope.

[SevenStar]

And yet the same guy calls this a cut kick, which is the same video I posted 2 pages back:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlkUlA96g2Y

here's another one:

http://www.ancientmuaythai.com/school/countertech.htm

scroll down to "grabbing the elephant's trunk" - they mention that that is a cut kick as well.

here is an explanation of it on bullsh!do:
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=56317&page=4

I'm not gonna say he's wrong - different schools call different techniques by different names all the time, but I have never heard of what you posted referred to as a cut kick.

another vid:
http://tdatraining.blogspot.com/search/label/Muay%20Thai

[boshea]

the spinning hook in muay thai is "crocodile whips its tail". I can't recall how to say it in thai...

จระเข้ฟาดหาง
Jarakhe faat haang

-brian

[boshea]

Same thing I've heard my Sifu saw dozens of times, for every type of kick. "Don't rise up on the tip toe or you fall on you butt. Don't float the kick or you'll connect where you shouldn't. Either way, you're dead in a real fight."

My Sifu's such an optomist.;)

True, although in Muay Thai we are taught to do all of our kicks on the ball of the foot, rotating as the hip of the kicking leg is turned in just prior to making contact (I know this is not the same as what your Sifu said, which was not to stand on the "tip toe").

This was difficult for me at first because in Northern Shaolin we were always taught to keep our supporting foot rooted, with the heel of the supporting foot firmly on the ground for just about everything. It was a fundamental concept. It took me a long time to un-learn that for the purposes of Muay Thai, but now its second-nature. In fact, most of the time in Muay Thai we stand on the ball of one or both feet.

-brian

[Becca]

Yes, pivoting on the ball of the foot is good; damm hard to spin on a flat foot. The "don't rise up" was, indead, in reference to those who lift up on the toes to "reach" better. Your foot may get higher in the air, but the first time you connect even a bit, you land on your @ss. Some times you end up there even without contacting anything because you've thrown off your natural balance.:eek:

[Mr Punch]

Don't watch this... (http://www.bodogfight.com/fullscreen/?watch=481&time=3) if you've just eaten.

Kind of back to the subject - this is a pro-fighter who must have kicked full-on thousands of times... It looked like an awkward fall but I wouldn't have called that one... dunno but it looks like she must've already had some hairline fracture or something. And to reiterate: this is very well-trained fighter.

If you want to lessen your risk of injury: quit MA!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Freak accidents happen, no way to prepare for them.

Not really applicable to this thread though...

[SevenStar]

Yes, pivoting on the ball of the foot is good; damm hard to spin on a flat foot. The "don't rise up" was, indead, in reference to those who lift up on the toes to "reach" better. Your foot may get higher in the air, but the first time you connect even a bit, you land on your @ss. Some times you end up there even without contacting anything because you've thrown off your natural balance.:eek:

That is another personal preference thing. I have seen MT teachers teach not to be on the ball of the foot. when you throw the thai roundhouse, you are supposed to step out at an angle anyway. if when you step your foot is already turned properly, there is no need to pivot on it.

[Becca]

But if you are stepping into the proper position, you are not piviting your foot, but rather moving it...

What you do once your pivit is complete is usually a stylistic preference. But simple physics says that it is easier to pivit on the ball of the foot than the flat foot.:)

[boshea]

That is another personal preference thing. I have seen MT teachers teach not to be on the ball of the foot. when you throw the thai roundhouse, you are supposed to step out at an angle anyway. if when you step your foot is already turned properly, there is no need to pivot on it.

Yea, I've had a few trainers teach pretty different versions of the same techniques.

The explanation for standing on the ball of the foot is that, even after you have stepped out, your foot is only at about a 45 degree angle. Pivoting on the foot makes it easier to rotate the hip of the kicking leg just before the kick connects. Some of my trainers really exaggerate this pivoting motion when demonstrating it, to make sure that it really gets drilled in to our heads. But when I watch them actually use the kick in an application, they tend not to pivot as much. Stepping out at 45 degrees might be sufficient for some folks to get that hip to rotate, but my hips are not the most flexible so I really like to pivot on that supporting foot to help out the hip rotation as much as possible.

-brian

[sanjuro_ronin]

How do you "roll" your hip over without the pivot of your support foot ?

[boshea]

How do you "roll" your hip over without the pivot of your support foot ?

I have to pivot on the ball of my supporting foot every time in order to get the kick right. Some people have more hip flexibility, and I think they must also step out with their foot at more than a 45 degree angle to start with. My trainers say to pivot every time. I also feel that starting out square and pivoting gets some momentum for the kick, as opposed to starting out at the correct angle. Maybe SevenStar can elaborate since he has had a trainer tell him not to pivot on the ball of the supporting foot.

(BTW, who was that question addressed to?)

-brian

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have to pivot on the ball of my supporting foot every time in order to get the kick right. Some people have more hip flexibility, and I think they must also step out with their foot at more than a 45 degree angle to start with. My trainers say to pivot every time. I also feel that starting out square and pivoting gets some momentum for the kick, as opposed to starting out at the correct angle. Maybe SevenStar can elaborate since he has had a trainer tell him not to pivot on the ball of the supporting foot.

(BTW, who was that question addressed to?)

-brian

To anyone that can show me how they roll their hips into a kick without pivoting on the support foot.

[SevenStar]

But if you are stepping into the proper position, you are not piviting your foot, but rather moving it...

What you do once your pivit is complete is usually a stylistic preference. But simple physics says that it is easier to pivit on the ball of the foot than the flat foot.:)

I didn't comment on whether it was easier or harder - that is beside the point. the point is that the pivot is not necessary. you always step with a thai kick. The reason is that a common counter to that kick is a straight right. if you are stepping offline as you kick, there is a greater chance that the kick will miss. consequently, you are taught to step and kick. Even though different teachers have told me to pivot or not pivot, all of them have advocated the initial step.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Watch the following video. It should clear up some of this debate about pivoting the feet.

www.evtv1.com/?itemnum=558 - 80k

Enjoy!!!

[SevenStar]

To anyone that can show me how they roll their hips into a kick without pivoting on the support foot.

it depends on the angle of the foot as you step step out with it. problem is, I can forsee knee injury when it is done this way. less pivot = more stress on the knee when you turn the hip.

[SevenStar]

I am trying to find a clip of a no pivot step. Here is discussion on it on bullshido:

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/sitemap/index.php/t-30078-p-4.html

several of them were taught not to pivot also. It is also mentioned in there that bas rutten and cro cop are propoents of not pivoting. I was taught that by a dutch guy, so it kinda falls in line.

EDIT: skimming over it, that is actually a decent thread - they talk about the cross being a common counter, about the arm swing and foot placement. I'm not registered on the site, so I can't see the vids and pics, but the discussion itself is good.

[Becca]

... Maybe SevenStar can elaborate since he has had a trainer tell him not to pivot on the ball of the supporting foot.

(BTW, who was that question addressed to?)

-brian
He didn't say he doesn't TURN into the kick. He just steps into it rather than piviting into it. Both very good techniques. As has been stated, the difference is in preference, either personal or stylistic. I step into them if I need to close the gap and pivit if I'm already nice and close.

But I do pivit on the ball of my foot for most kicks that require it. The sole exception being a wheel kick. With that one you always, always, always pivit on he heal, no steping into it.

[Becca]

... the point is that the pivot is not necessary. you always step with a thai kick...
Your point was that it is not nesissary. I agree.

My comment was spacifically that piviting on he ball of the foot beets trying to pivit on a flat foot. And that rising up to pivit is not the same thing as trying to kick tippy-toed.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I am trying to find a clip of a no pivot step. Here is discussion on it on bullshido:

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/sitemap/index.php/t-30078-p-4.html

several of them were taught not to pivot also. It is also mentioned in there that bas rutten and cro cop are propoents of not pivoting. I was taught that by a dutch guy, so it kinda falls in line.

EDIT: skimming over it, that is actually a decent thread - they talk about the cross being a common counter, about the arm swing and foot placement. I'm not registered on the site, so I can't see the vids and pics, but the discussion itself is good.

The uselessness of BS aside, yes Bas does advocate the same thing and a few others too, yet the pivot is always there. no matter how slight, or you get a Shotokan Mawashi-geri and who wants that !!>!?!?!?!?!?
:eek:

[SevenStar]

here is one on martial arts planet:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?referrerid=17337&t=66840

[sanjuro_ronin]

here is one on martial arts planet:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?referrerid=17337&t=66840

No need, I know what you are refering too, seen Bas do it in person and in his Big DVD of Combat.
Not my personal fav whay of doing it, but I was taught the round house from ITF and learned the MT round from Chai and one of his student.

[SevenStar]

The uselessness of BS aside, yes Bas does advocate the same thing and a few others too, yet the pivot is always there. no matter how slight, or you get a Shotokan Mawashi-geri and who wants that !!>!?!?!?!?!?
:eek:

I am not opposed to the mawashi geri, actually. One of the hardest roundhouse kicks I have felt was from a little japanese guy from kumamoto.

And actually, since we are kinda on that topic now, I have seen thai boxers advocate chambering as well.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I am not opposed to the mawashi geri, actually. One of the hardest roundhouse kicks I have felt was from a little japanese guy from kumamoto.

And actually, since we are kinda on that topic now, I have seen thai boxers advocate chambering as well.

I am kyokushin, we do a chambered round (thai) kick, so....

[boshea]

you always step with a thai kick. The reason is that a common counter to that kick is a straight right. if you are stepping offline as you kick, there is a greater chance that the kick will miss. consequently, you are taught to step and kick. Even though different teachers have told me to pivot or not pivot, all of them have advocated the initial step.

I'm assuming you mean that by stepping out for the kick, "there is a greater chance that the straight right punch will miss" (i.e. not the kick). This is what we are taught also. When training the leg kick with the aforementioned suitcase pad, we usually simulate this by having the person holding the pad pretend to throw a right while the other kicks, to make sure that they step outside far enough.

[boshea]

He didn't say he doesn't TURN into the kick. He just steps into it rather than piviting into it. Both very good techniques. As has been stated, the difference is in preference, either personal or stylistic. I step into them if I need to close the gap and pivit if I'm already nice and close.


Agreed, I followed what SevenStar said when he described that, thanks. In Northern Shaolin we were always told to turn the foot out prior to the kick, so that it would be positioned correctly and so that the supporting foot would be rooted to the ground (with the heel planted firmly on the ground). That's why it took me so long to get used to pivoting on the ball of my foot in Muay Thai. Now that I'm used to it, I find that it works much better for my particular body mechanics.

[SevenStar]

.....I'm assuming you mean that by stepping out for the kick, "there is a greater chance that the straight right punch will miss" (i.e. not the kick). This is what we are taught also. When training the leg kick with the aforementioned suitcase pad, we usually simulate this by having the person holding the pad pretend to throw a right while the other kicks, to make sure that they step outside far enough.

oops...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Just went over the Bas rutten dvd and some other one's I have in regards to the round kick "without" the pivot.
I put without in quotations because they ALL pivot ( some more than others), the difference is wither the pivot as the kick or as the step to the angle.

Lets say we have our left foot forward and will round kick with out right leg, typically you will either pivot on the left foot ( typically the ball of the foot) or you will step to the side on an angle and turn the support foot while stepping ( still a "pivot").

If your toes (supporting leg) are pointing towards your opponent, unless after the kick they STILL are pointing that way, you have "pivoted".

Wither you do it on the ball of your foot or in the "air" as you step, it still gets turned away from your target.

[Mr Punch]

Freak accidents happen, no way to prepare for them.

Not really applicable to this thread though...I disagree. The thread was originally debating the sense of throwing shin kicks over other roundhouse kicks due to their likelihood to break the throwers' legs.

My point was just that these are mostly freak accidents, and so it is not a reflection on shin kicking. However, the chance of this kind of freak accident occurring will be increased by bad training practice in throwing this (or many other kinds of kicks) in training. This woman is a pro-fighter and had obviously thrown thousands of kicks, yet her leg was obviously weakened in some way (if you watch the vid, she doesn't take that much stress in the fall) - quite probably a hairline fracture.

I commented that this may be a common problem earlier, which nobody commented further on, instead turning the discussion to the right way to throw these kicks - which is of course valid and useful.

Whatever... I don't believe I just typed all that **** to justify one post in passing!

Back to your discussion then, chaps... :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

I disagree. The thread was originally debating the sense of throwing shin kicks over other roundhouse kicks due to their likelihood to break the throwers' legs.

My point was just that these are mostly freak accidents, and so it is not a reflection on shin kicking. However, the chance of this kind of freak accident occurring will be increased by bad training practice in throwing this (or many other kinds of kicks) in training. This woman is a pro-fighter and had obviously thrown thousands of kicks, yet her leg was obviously weakened in some way (if you watch the vid, she doesn't take that much stress in the fall) - quite probably a hairline fracture.

I commented that this may be a common problem earlier, which nobody commented further on, instead turning the discussion to the right way to throw these kicks - which is of course valid and useful.

Whatever... I don't believe I just typed all that **** to justify one post in passing!

Back to your discussion then, chaps... :rolleyes:

I think her leg break came from "shear" stress factors, not impact.

Bone conditioning is a "mix bag", it really hard to tell if you are conditoning the bone or desensitizing it.
I would assume that there is some increase in density of the shin bone when its conditioned properly, problem is, that doesn't change the "weak spot" of the shin bone structure.