ussd claim they teach shaolin

[sk girl]

USSD claim they teach shaolin, but where is it?
I didn't know pinons and katas 1-6 were shaolin?:p

Two man fist set is an ed parker form which Fred Villari got back in the 60 training with him.

So where's the shaolin?:confused:
Is Charles mattera lying to all his students about what they are learning?:eek:

Then what else is he lying about?

[Songshan]

yea....so does other styles claim they teach shaolin or is shaolin. You never really know what you are geting into. All I can say research research research before you decide to join a MA school.

[Shaolinlueb]

well technically karate came from some form of southern shaolin and southern shaolin came form shaolin and ussd crap came form karate, so technically if you want to be a a dousche bag it is shaolin. ;) :p

but we all know its karate or kenpo

[PangQuan]

USSD claim they teach shaolin, but where is it?
I didn't know pinons and katas 1-6 were shaolin?:p

Two man fist set is an ed parker form which Fred Villari got back in the 60 training with him.

So where's the shaolin?:confused:
Is Charles mattera lying to all his students about what they are learning?:eek:

Then what else is he lying about?

there may likely be shaolin material that is present somewhere in the curriculum...but you never know how much, or how much it has changed from when it was first absorbed, or when you will actually learn it.

if what you really want is shaolin, i wouldnt really be looking for it there. but i guess we are generally all stuck where we live so you have to go for what you have near unfortunately. there is plenty of shaolin in the states, you just have to be in the right area, or get lucky and find someone who has it but doesnt promote it so much.

personally i dont train ussd so im not too sure.

[PangQuan]

well technically karate came from some form of southern shaolin and southern shaolin came form shaolin and ussd crap came form karate, so technically if you want to be a a dousche bag it is shaolin. ;) :p

but we all know its karate or kenpo

lol


that was a good one

[TenTigers]

people claim alot of things. McDonalds says their burgers are 100% beef, yet when I make a burger at home, it doesn't taste at all alike.

[xcakid]

Well Mattera did change the Black Belt curriculum to a more Kung Fu style. More so than any other Shaolin Kempo styles out there(Emperado's Kajukenbo, Ralph Castro or Villari)

More like Won Hop Kuen Do style that Al Dacascos started when he split off the Kempo lineage.

USSD may suck at teaching the art cuase the business aspect dilutes it. However, the art itself is good IMHO. They just need to stop churning out "black belts" so that they can offer more schools. They need to stop letting 1st Degree balck blets issued after 2yrs of study, and no other prior exp in MA, be chief instructors.

Is it Shaolin? NO. In my experience of Shaolin, USSD's training method differs to that of Shaolin training. ONe in particular is that USSD does not emphasize stance training and proper transition drills. Is it Kung Fu? Not in the color belt stages. However, the concepts changes, which I believe confuses the heck out of any student if this was thier first experience in MA. Again another fault in teaching method. Anyone with any background with CMA will be able to pick up the transition. Other tend to do CMA using Japenese MA foundation.

As I have said before. It is as close as you are going to get to CMA with an American derived system.

If you look at the roots of the system, you can better understand it and what is being taught to you. The main person in this system is James Mitose. If you believe the story, his MA was handed down by family directly from a Shaolin Monk. Nevertheless it is Japanese MA akin to Shorin Ryu. He then handed this down to Kwai Sun Chow. Chinese decent with a background in Chinese boxing. His Shaolin link has been in dispute, so I am not even going to bring that out. But the man can fight. So there you have the Kung Fu/Karate explaination.

Fast fwd to the Ken(m)po contemporaries:

Ed Parker: Took out the circular movement, low stance, etc. that he deemed were to difficult for the American body to adapt. He added a bit of biology with rigard to motion and body mechanics into the art. It turned out looking more like fancy hand waving in my opinion.

Adriano Emperado et al: Took this art and added bits an pieces of other Asian arts that was lacking. Karate, Judo/Juijitsu, Kenpo, Chinese Boxing. There you have Kajukenbo. Later on Gary Forbach, who took over the reigns, when to China to study more CMA and incorporated it into the system.

Kwai Sun Chow: Kaharo Ho Kempo. This is probably the truest art of Kempo out there. Undiluted.

Then we go to offshoots:

Al Dacascos: Created Won Hop Kuen Do and added more CMA into the system. This is probably the most Kung Fu-like out of all the Kempo offshoots. If you ever see their forms in competition, you would swear it was modern Wushu.

Ralph Castro: Kept more of the American Kenpo of parker however, took in more of CMA into the system.

Nick Cerios: Instructor to Villari which, Mattera denies ever being a student of Villari but he was. Regardless, much like Castro kept the American Kenpo concept. He did change the forms however, more Karate in the color belts. And soft in the higher belts although still not Kung Fu.

He had 2 offshots. Villari and Mattera. Villari schools kept the Nick Cerios concept although Villari added a few forms. Matter broke off and kept much of the lower belt curriculum. Once USSD was established, he changed the black belt curriculum. There were a few black belt from other CMA arts and he assimilated their forms and concepts within the system. For example, I have a few forms I learned while there: Staff and Spear form from N Shaolin LF, Straight sword form from CLF and a broudsword form from N Shoalin.

Hope that explains it. I am by no means an expert. However, I have spent nearly 8yrs. in the Kempo world. Master Ralph Castro then Villari then eventually Mattera's USSD.

[Songshan]

Yea but therein lies the problem. Karate itself mainly derives from Japan. Kung Fu hails from China. Two different countries and in my opinion two different styles. Yea sure some can use the "shaolin blanket" that shaolin has influenced all other martial art styles but when schools go around saying they are teaching kung fu but wear karate gis and have a karate style ranking system is absurd.

I am not sure if I exactly agree with the mixing of MA styles. I think there are new fighting theories and systems that can be pioneered but when they are tossed out there and dubbed "shaolin" is insane.

[B-Rad]

Yea sure some can use the "shaolin blanket" that shaolin has influenced all other martial art styles but when schools go around saying they are teaching kung fu but wear karate gis and have a karate style ranking system is absurd
Also, a bit disrespectful to the karate/kenpo community, or whatever the majority of the art is derivef from I think. Adding 5% of a Chinese style doesn't suddenly negate the 95% that's from different roots. If you do all karate or kenpo barehand and basics then doing a few weapon forms from various Chinese styles isn't going to change much.

[TenTigers]

Having taught both an old Tracy's version of Kenpo and FV "Shaolin (ugh) Kempo" and being a Hung Kuen practitioner for over twenty years, I can say with authority that, one-Chow's Kenpo is much closer to Hung Kuen, and Villari's is an offshoot of Cerio, which like a xerox of a xerox, is very, very far from original kenpo, and completely unrelated to Kung-Fu. The forms are called Pinans and are so far from Pinan Kata, one would think he learned them from a book. Not only are sequences "different" but in some cases, movement is backwards. They also have forms called-get this-"Ancient Chinese Katas 1,2,3,4,5,6" yeah, I'm sure that's real. They refer to techniques as "Kenpos" and "Jiu-Jitsus" , fer chrissakes, at least say "Kenpo techniques" it's laughable, if it weren't so painful.
-you should've stayed with Ralph Castro-he trained directly with Chow, alongside Ed Parker. You would've had something real.

[tattooedmonk]

Yea but therein lies the problem. Karate itself mainly derives from Japan. Kung Fu hails from China. Two different countries and in my opinion two different styles. Yea sure some can use the "shaolin blanket" that shaolin has influenced all other martial art styles but when schools go around saying they are teaching kung fu but wear karate gis and have a karate style ranking system is absurd.

I am not sure if I exactly agree with the mixing of MA styles. I think there are new fighting theories and systems that can be pioneered but when they are tossed out there and dubbed "shaolin" is insane. Aside from all the other BS, what does the uniform or belt system have to do with determining whether or not you do kung fu or karate or Shaolin or not?? many socalled TCMA schools have adopted belt / sash ranking systems, how does this make them any less traditional or authentic??

By the way most Japanese Karate comes from China. The original ideogram for Karate meant "china hand".

Most of the people on this board have a no idea what true CMA or Kung Fu is. They get these ideas and images in their head from movies, media, and their instructors . Most people base their opinion on non intrinsic values( i.e. outward appearences , terminology, etc.) Why does any of this really matter ??

I have been doing Shaolin / Wudang arts for over 15 years and I can tell you that for application purposes all that flowery, soft crap that most of you do will get your @$$es handed to you in a real fight.

Shaolin and kung fu on the whole has been turned into just a form of exercise and performance art and has no true practical application. I often go to these so called traditional kung fu schools and watch them spar and practice application, it is a joke.

I am not a fan of USSD ,nor am I defending them, but some of you need to get a clue and get of your high horse, because before too long someone will come along and knock you off!!

And most likely it is going to be a MMA guy or someone from USSD.

Kung Fu ( martial arts) is for the intended effect, for the enemy or the opponent to be dispatched in the quickest , most efficient manner possible without any wasted time and effort.

[tattooedmonk]

Shaolin and Kung fu are based on philosophy, basic stance trainig and practical application, and not whether you use english , japanese or chinese terminology or whether you have belts , gis , lion dances or specific forms, all this simple does not matter does not matter.

Get a clue people and start living in reality.

Personallly I think that people should stop refering to CMA as Kung Fu because even if you practice another martial art and have put time and effort or hard work you still essentially practice Kung Fu.

[SenseiShellie]

Shaolin and Kung fu are based on philosophy, basic stance trainig and practical application, and not whether you use english , japanese or chinese terminology or whether you have belts , gis , lion dances or specific forms, all this simple does not matter does not matter.

Get a clue people and start living in reality.

Personallly I think that people should stop refering to CMA as Kung Fu because even if you practice another martial art and have put time and effort or hard work you still essentially practice Kung Fu.

I agree. Isn't it true that the traditional Masters of CMA practiced medicince, martial arts and the fine arts?

[TenTigers]

um, no. They were killers, with mind and body honed to deadly perfection. But not a sage, not Kwai Chang Caine. Wake up Dorothy. Do some real research. Look up who the real CMAists were. Not the ones from the Chinese folk dramas.

[TenTigers]

that being said, many of us still try to follow the way of the scholar warrior, and yes, Dorothy, I too still hold a warm part of my heart for David Carradine.
(But NOT Ralph Machio!)

[SoCo KungFu]

Sorry for my ignorance as my web fu is pretty rusty. What is USSD?

Since I have nothing really relevant to say on the topic, afterall I don't even know what USSD stands for, I'm just kinda throwing out things to a bunch of various topics in the thread.

Shaolin is based on Chan first and foremost. Shaolin based kung fu then in turn being a system of defense utilises that same religious/philosophical background. Chan being about self discipline and all that jazz, the horse stance training and conditioning and stuff that tattooedmonk said kinda follows right up in that line. Isn't kinda funny though that Shaolin has embraced the "fluff" of its own name in recent years. Isn't Chan about stripping away excess in route to personal development? I mean, I'm glad those guys finally got things like ummm, plumbing and all. But I thought all that other material stuff was kinda the whole problem that Tamo original scoffed at some 1500 years ago and started this whole Shaolin thing to begin with?

I do have to agree with the monk though; Gi's, belts and all that stuff doesn't make the art. If you really wanna get down to it, that whole orange shaolin suit thing that all the monks wore was just a uniform like any other. They all wore the same clothes, yeah I know they had that grey one too, at least they do for sell here :) And they all had the same haircut. But that just went along with the whole removing the individual self which aided in the transition of the material world to a state which could lead to personal mastery. You know how in the movies they have the guy at the altar getting his head shaved and they rename him and all that :)

Heck I usually just train in a ratty old shirt. And I hate wearing my sash. The only time I'm in "uniform" is on those occassions I meet my sifu at the kwoon. Usually when I'm with my friends though we are out in the yard wearing whatever. To quote that cheesy old movie Sidekicks, " No need Gi to break brick." I can see though why a lot of school use the Gi's now though, it does stand up much better when training throws and Chi' na type things.

The only thing that seperates kung fu as a martial art from other arts is the way in which it applies its use. All realistic MA are just different routes to the same end. Kung Fu, and TCMA as a whole are just one of them. And since TCMA are so broad even to define itself is impossible. The lines aren't so black and white. The only real noticable difference is that TCMA in general apply more circular force than the other Asian arts (though that's not all exclusive) and the one other thing is that it is also so linked with medical application. The old masters realised that in their times, just like in present day. One is much more likely do die of old age or illness than by a physical assault. So kung fu in general, places a lot more emphasis on physical development that the TJMA and Korean arts. Do those other guys PT too? Sure. But its not really placed within the curriculum so much.

You know one interesting thing. When I used to live in Okinawa and watch the old guys doing karate. There were a couple styles (Shohei Ryu is the only one I learned the name of) which really does still have a lot of kung fu flavor. The footwork is a bit more streamlined, a lot of emphasis on 3 stances (horse stance, forward stance and that weird karate not horse stance but not pok ma). But the hand technique was very much the same. They had the tiger and mantis and all that jazz going on. It was very interesting. I wish I could have spoken to the guy about the apps and stuff but well, my Japanese just wasn't that good and I didn't want to offend the guy, just walking up out of the blue and asking him about his MA.

Ummm...hmmm...the only other thing I can think of...Kung Fu masters were not killers as TT put it. Though they weren't all the scholars either. They were just people. They were farmers, doctors, soldiers, cops, religious leaders...a lot like everyone today. The only difference is that they took their training a lot more seriously. Cuz well that's how people fought back then. Kung fu might have been a lot different if guns were invented 300 years sooner or so... But to say that they were deadly perfected killers is just as much an exaggeration as to say they were all divine beings that could float on clouds and played flutes all day. They were human. Skinny, fat, tall, short...they got happy, mad, jelous, apathetic just like the rest of us. Not to debunk anyones faith in the art or anything. If anything I would hope it refocuses you. Those guys got so good but yet they were just human. There is no reason why with the same effort anyone here couldn't be just as good. If anything people now days have more time to train. No one I know is waking up at 4:00 am to milk a cow and plant rice. People have a lot of excuses not to train now days. But work, kids, bills...these aren't new things, people 400 years ago had the same problems. And hey you aren't going to be hanged for bouncing a check :)

Anyways, what were we talking about? Oh yeah, what's USSD?

[Songshan]

Aside from all the other BS, what does the uniform or belt system have to do with determining whether or not you do kung fu or karate or Shaolin or not?? many socalled TCMA schools have adopted belt / sash ranking systems, how does this make them any less traditional or authentic??

By the way most Japanese Karate comes from China. The original ideogram for Karate meant "china hand".

Well to be honest with you the uniform or belt doesn't determine what "style
you study. I just think it's rather comical to read about the "2nd degree black belt in shaolin kung fu"....especially when emphasis is placed on something that is totally useless in itself...lets say like a belt. Yeah Karate has roots from China but if you dissect karate from kung fu the fighting styles are totally different. Just because something originated from China doesn't necessarily mean "shaolin" should be painted all over it.

Most of the people on this board have a no idea what true CMA or Kung Fu is. They get these ideas and images in their head from movies, media, and their instructors . Most people base their opinion on non intrinsic values( i.e. outward appearences , terminology, etc.) Why does any of this really matter ??

I have been doing Shaolin / Wudang arts for over 15 years and I can tell you that for application purposes all that flowery, soft crap that most of you do will get your @$$es handed to you in a real fight.

Shaolin and kung fu on the whole has been turned into just a form of exercise and performance art and has no true practical application. I often go to these so called traditional kung fu schools and watch them spar and practice application, it is a joke.

I am not a fan of USSD ,nor am I defending them, but some of you need to get a clue and get of your high horse, because before too long someone will come along and knock you off!!

And most likely it is going to be a MMA guy or someone from USSD.

Kung Fu ( martial arts) is for the intended effect, for the enemy or the opponent to be dispatched in the quickest , most efficient manner possible without any wasted time and effort.

Right again, most people do not know what CMA or kung fu is. Reading from your comment, I think somewhere along your studies you have been mis informed. Not doubting your experiences/studies but to say you study shaolin / wudang is sort of a contradiction in itself. The "flowery stuff" you are referring to is called wushu, chang quan, long fist....etc. and is not necessarily shaolin kung fu. There are differences but a bit of research from the internet can provide the details rather than turn this into another shaoln wushu debate. Oh yeah before I forget dont wander into a fight thinking shaolin is a form of exercise and performance art and has no true practical applications....you may end up having your rear end handed to you in a fight...most likely from a shaolin guy or a wushu guy.

Let me try and clarify what I was trying to say. Often when the question "how does this or that make a style or art any less traditional or authentic?" makes me think where did tradition go in the martial arts? So often you read post after post from people who feel the need to learn martial arts to "incapacitate someone", extreme self defense or say to prove who has the best fighting style. Yes, martial arts was originated for fighting/combat purposes but to me that is barely the surface of martial arts. Martial arts has deeper roots with deeper meaning. People learn martial arts for many reasons not just fighting. Some do for health (Qi gong) and some even do for sports performance. Whether it be uniforms, lion dance teams, terminology, etc. they are all part of tradtion and culture. When you neglect traditions and culture for the almighty dollar you begin altering a particular style's tradition. That is why in my opinion I do not agree with the mixing of styles. Yeah sure the "ground and pound" is brutal, sells tickets, fighters make money but is that really martial arts?

[Songshan]

Shaolin and Kung fu are based on philosophy, basic stance trainig and practical application, and not whether you use english , japanese or chinese terminology or whether you have belts , gis , lion dances or specific forms, all this simple does not matter does not matter.

Get a clue people and start living in reality.

Personallly I think that people should stop refering to CMA as Kung Fu because even if you practice another martial art and have put time and effort or hard work you still essentially practice Kung Fu.

In case you missed it.....

Often when the question "how does this or that make a style or art any less traditional or authentic?" makes me think where did tradition go in the martial arts? So often you read post after post from people who feel the need to learn martial arts to "incapacitate someone", extreme self defense or say to prove who has the best fighting style. Yes, martial arts was originated for fighting/combat purposes but to me that is barely the surface of martial arts. Martial arts has deeper roots with deeper meaning. People learn martial arts for many reasons not just fighting. Some do for health (Qi gong) and some even do for sports performance. Whether it be uniforms, lion dance teams, terminology, etc. they are all part of tradtion and culture. When you neglect traditions and culture for the almighty dollar you begin altering a particular style's tradition. That is why in my opinion I do not agree with the mixing of styles. Yeah sure the "ground and pound" is brutal, sells tickets, fighters make money but is that really martial arts?

It may not mean anything to you but it may for others. Lets fast forward to the future. When you get old (and you will) and reach an "elder status" in life will you be still looking for that "fighters edge" in martial arts or will you be one of those that hangs up the martial arts? Sometimes you have to think of the future not just the present. That is reality.

[TenTigers]

let me also add, "The flowery" innefective stuff? Have you ever asked yourself, if you were putting together techniques to pass down to save a human life on the battlefield, or wherever, where life and death hang in the balance, would you include "flowery, innefective movements" or movement for movement sake? Highly doubtful. Granted, there are styles that have devolved over time to include acrobatic opera movements, but these are few and far between. Simply put, it means that most people do not understand the movements and applications. It has been my experience, that the movements that appear to be the most "flowery and inneffective" end up being the most brutal.
Just for fun, perform the following movements in the air; an imagined defense against a right lead-
step in at a 45 angle,deflect the incomming attack with your left,and strike with your right to the face/eyes with an open palm/claw,immediately following with a left knifedge strike to the throat,which rips up over the face,grabbing the back of the head while the right chop/grabs the throat. or jaw. Snap the head back and then twist counterclockwise and down towards the ground. On an opponent, this is a fairly brutal, yet common movement seen in many systems-when "performed" in the air,in one continuous movement, it is quite beautiful-dainty almost. it is one application of twin butterfly palms. Very basic, and not considered a "higher level skill" but simply an example.
In SPM, the skill,"Flower hands" is a higher level skill, and has only been passed down to a select few. The little I have seen is far more subtle, and much more brutal.
just mty .02

[xcakid]

-you should've stayed with Ralph Castro-he trained directly with Chow, alongside Ed Parker. You would've had something real.

Yep. Unfortunately I moved to SoCal. There weren't any Castro schools there. He was not big on expansion. I did find a Kajukenbo school taught by Master Forbach, but at the time I was oblivious to its lineage. All I was able to find was Villari, which later became USSD.

And Master Ralph Castro does call his system Shaolin Kenpo (Shaolin Chuan Fa). One thing that was a bit difficult was all of the defensive techniques had actual names like "tiger walk the river" as oppose to USSD/Villari's numbered "kenpos" I kinda liked the simplified numbered system.

[sk girl]

Hey xcakid,

Have you trained with any of the shaolin monks in texas?

[xcakid]

Hey xcakid,

Have you trained with any of the shaolin monks in texas?

No. I live in N TX(Dallas Area) and the ones that I know of are in central and south TX. I will be attending a seminar at Taiji Legacy this year which will have Shi Yan Feng. If I am not mistaken he has a school in Houston.

Really not many good KF schools(in my opinion) around my area. A few. GM Lee who teaches MyJong Lawhorn. He does contracts and I tend to shy away from schools that do contracts. GM Jimmy Woo who is with the US ChinWoo Fed. He is about 20miles from where I live, but his class schedule given his location kinda conflicts with mine. A Long Fist school opened up last Oct 2mile from my house and is on the way to and from the train station I use to commute. The sifu is quite good and really knows his stuff. Good background too.

I can count all the good KF schools he DFW on one hand.

We do have about 6 USSD schools though :D I went to one about a yr ago to check it out. Tried out a class and showed them my USSD black belt cert. The dude started pitching me on opening up a school and even called me a few times to follow up about it. :D

[SenseiShellie]

um, no. They were killers, with mind and body honed to deadly perfection. But not a sage, not Kwai Chang Caine. Wake up Dorothy. Do some real research. Look up who the real CMAists were. Not the ones from the Chinese folk dramas.

look dude, i asked a question. it was one that was requiring an answer...not a chastising.

[TenTigers]

sorry Sensei,
not chastising you ,personally. Just the idea that Shaolin Monks were the upright Buddhist sutra reciting icons we bought into from all the movies, books, and TV shows. Warrior Monks were warriors. Many did not take buddhist vows at all. Many lived on the grounds and shaved their heads, wore robes, but were actually in hiding from the Ching Govt.
Certainly Not David Carradine,
more like Chuck Zito, but with a shaved head.;)

[PangQuan]

wasnt there some deal also that you could escape prison time if you joined a temple/monestary?

[xcakid]

wasnt there some deal also that you could escape prison time if you joined a temple/monestary?

I believe you can seek asylum.

[sk girl]

No. I live in N TX(Dallas Area) and the ones that I know of are in central and south TX. I will be attending a seminar at Taiji Legacy this year which will have Shi Yan Feng. If I am not mistaken he has a school in Houston.

Really not many good KF schools(in my opinion) around my area. A few. GM Lee who teaches MyJong Lawhorn. He does contracts and I tend to shy away from schools that do contracts. GM Jimmy Woo who is with the US ChinWoo Fed. He is about 20miles from where I live, but his class schedule given his location kinda conflicts with mine. A Long Fist school opened up last Oct 2mile from my house and is on the way to and from the train station I use to commute. The sifu is quite good and really knows his stuff. Good background too.

I can count all the good KF schools he DFW on one hand.

We do have about 6 USSD schools though :D I went to one about a yr ago to check it out. Tried out a class and showed them my USSD black belt cert. The dude started pitching me on opening up a school and even called me a few times to follow up about it. :D


Hey xcakid,
I knew what you mean about ussd pitching you to open a school. Those ussd instructors are fat master Blacks students so they are totally brainwashed into ussd crappy thinking. They dont even know that there learning Villari kempo with no shaolin in it.
USSD is the best join us and make no money. That sorta crappy thinking will get you no where.

There is a former villari instructor who went back to Cerio in dallas and he doesn't call his art shaolin kempo.
www.dallaskenpo.com/instructors.html

Dr. Nick Chamberlain
8th Degree Black Belt, Gasan Ryu Kenpo
5th Degree Black Belt, Nick Cerio's Kenpo
5th Degree Black Karazenpo Goshinjitsu
3rd Degree Black Belt, Heike Ryu Jiu-Jitsu

It might be worth checking out.

If Jimmy Woo was in my area I'd check his class out.

[xcakid]

Hey xcakid,

There is a former villari instructor who went back to Cerio in dallas and he doesn't call his art shaolin kempo.
www.dallaskenpo.com/instructors.html

Dr. Nick Chamberlain
8th Degree Black Belt, Gasan Ryu Kenpo
5th Degree Black Belt, Nick Cerio's Kenpo
5th Degree Black Karazenpo Goshinjitsu
3rd Degree Black Belt, Heike Ryu Jiu-Jitsu

It might be worth checking out.

If Jimmy Woo was in my area I'd check his class out.

I have actually been to Dallas Kenpo. I checked that school out when I first got to Dallas. I really wanted to go back to a CMA. I was looking for an Eagle Claw school but there are none in DFW area. I really liked the concept of Ying Jow Pai.

Have a good school now and I am taking a liking to Shaolin Long Fist. Its like CMA with Tae Kwon Do kicks mixed in. :D

[SenseiShellie]

sorry Sensei,
not chastising you ,personally. Just the idea that Shaolin Monks were the upright Buddhist sutra reciting icons we bought into from all the movies, books, and TV shows. Warrior Monks were warriors. Many did not take buddhist vows at all. Many lived on the grounds and shaved their heads, wore robes, but were actually in hiding from the Ching Govt.
Certainly Not David Carradine,
more like Chuck Zito, but with a shaved head.;)

Hey...that's pretty cool. I didn't know that! I like the Chuck Zito image...lol.

[Songshan]

sorry Sensei,
not chastising you ,personally. Just the idea that Shaolin Monks were the upright Buddhist sutra reciting icons we bought into from all the movies, books, and TV shows. Warrior Monks were warriors. Many did not take buddhist vows at all. Many lived on the grounds and shaved their heads, wore robes, but were actually in hiding from the Ching Govt.
Certainly Not David Carradine,
more like Chuck Zito, but with a shaved head.;)

Yea that's just the problem....a lot of us bought into the "monks out of the movie image". The reality of it is the "warrior monks" are not fully ordained religious monks that everyone seems to think thats what a monk should be. Most of em are lay disciples. So like any other MA style they fall under the same scrutiny as people put with organizations like the USSD and what not.

[ninja matt]

well technically karate came from some form of southern shaolin and southern shaolin came form shaolin and ussd crap came form karate, so technically if you want to be a a dousche bag it is shaolin. ;) :p

but we all know its karate or kenpo

Well ussd masters are dousche bags so the shoe fits.

[ninja matt]

USSD claim they teach shaolin, but where is it?
I didn't know pinons and katas 1-6 were shaolin?:p

Two man fist set is an ed parker form which Fred Villari got back in the 60 training with him.

So where's the shaolin?:confused:
Is Charles mattera lying to all his students about what they are learning?:eek:

Then what else is he lying about?

Yes he's a liar. He lies to his students, instuctors all for the money.
If you went to an area that didn't have italian food and you started serving mexican food and called it italian but no one knew the difference you might get away with it for a while. Now we have the internet to exposed Mattera and ussd as the frauds that they are.

[sk girl]

Yes he's a liar. He lies to his students, instuctors all for the money.
If you went to an area that didn't have italian food and you started serving mexican food and called it italian but no one knew the difference you might get away with it for a while. Now we have the internet to exposed Mattera and ussd as the frauds that they are.

Yes Thank you. He lied saying we would make money from there schools. We only made money for ussd.
50 hours, $ 300 a week no taxes taken out sucks! Plus you can never own a school 100%
$250,000 for 33% of a school and all the rest of the money goes back to ussd! Come on how is anybody gonna make a living off that?
Plus a $1,000 a month for black belt manuals.
It would take 30 years just to get your money back from ussd.

[SenseiShellie]

heh...I remember having so many manuals from the 4 previous Chief Instructors of a certain dojo, which no longer exists, I could have built a second location.

[xcakid]

Yes Thank you. He lied saying we would make money from there schools. We only made money for ussd.
50 hours, $ 300 a week no taxes taken out sucks! Plus you can never own a school 100%
$250,000 for 33% of a school and all the rest of the money goes back to ussd! Come on how is anybody gonna make a living off that?
Plus a $1,000 a month for black belt manuals.
It would take 30 years just to get your money back from ussd.


Wow!!! Guess inflation has caught up with USSD. When I owned a school, the franchise fee for a turn key school was $80K.

There was also a group liaibility insurance paid qrtrly(This was minimal, like $200 for a $10Mil policy).
Plus minimum of 10 manual purchased every month($500)
Plus you had to buy all your gear at Bushido
Plus the annual charge for marketing(about $5K)
Plus give up on all the Brown and Black belt testing. 100% goes to corporate.
Plus an annual franchise fee(dont recall what it was, I believe it was around $10K).

And then of course I had to pay rent and utilities out of all the cash I give to USSD. Also I had to get my own health coverage. Nevertheless, I had control of what to charge. The DM for the area pretty much sets a minimum so that you do not undercut a franchise in your town. There were 2 of us in Mission Viejo at the time. But I could charge $200 a month if I wanted to. Or as little as the minimum. Of course if you did not make your fees, corporate had the right to bring in their own chief instructor and you would have to pay them a salary. As well as shut you down and you lose all your investment. I knew one instructor that just broke off and just went independent. He was then harrassed and ended up suing USSD and Mattera which he won.

After all was said an done I was averaging a take home of $3-5K a month pre tax. Of course I owned and taught myself. I had 2 asst. instructors that came in and I did not pay them. Basically just exchanged lessons and private classes for their time. One was a black belt and the other a green belt. The other good thing was if I wanted to take a vaca, there were black belts from other schools that would cover.

Guess they have re-structured it a bit since I left the system.

[sk girl]

Wow!!! Guess inflation has caught up with USSD. When I owned a school, the franchise fee for a turn key school was $80K.

There was also a group liaibility insurance paid qrtrly(This was minimal, like $200 for a $10Mil policy).
Plus minimum of 10 manual purchased every month($500)
Plus you had to buy all your gear at Bushido
Plus the annual charge for marketing(about $5K)
Plus give up on all the Brown and Black belt testing. 100% goes to corporate.
Plus an annual franchise fee(dont recall what it was, I believe it was around $10K).

And then of course I had to pay rent and utilities out of all the cash I give to USSD. Also I had to get my own health coverage. Nevertheless, I had control of what to charge. The DM for the area pretty much sets a minimum so that you do not undercut a franchise in your town. There were 2 of us in Mission Viejo at the time. But I could charge $200 a month if I wanted to. Or as little as the minimum. Of course if you did not make your fees, corporate had the right to bring in their own chief instructor and you would have to pay them a salary. As well as shut you down and you lose all your investment. I knew one instructor that just broke off and just went independent. He was then harrassed and ended up suing USSD and Mattera which he won.

After all was said an done I was averaging a take home of $3-5K a month pre tax. Of course I owned and taught myself. I had 2 asst. instructors that came in and I did not pay them. Basically just exchanged lessons and private classes for their time. One was a black belt and the other a green belt. The other good thing was if I wanted to take a vaca, there were black belts from other schools that would cover.

Guess they have re-structured it a bit since I left the system.

Hey xcakid,
I ran a ussd dojo for those monkeys but it was too expensive. Plus I was tired of the DM who hadn't ran a dojo in 10 years tell me how to run them.

Back when they ran dojo's it was 60 a month for groups not 200 a month.
They expected me to sign up 3 people a week for $450 the first month!!
My DM told me he had harrassed schools that break away.

Which city was it?
Where was your school? Did you sell it back to them?

[xcakid]

Hey xcakid,
I ran a ussd dojo for those monkeys but it was too expensive. Plus I was tired of the DM who hadn't ran a dojo in 10 years tell me how to run them.

Back when they ran dojo's it was 60 a month for groups not 200 a month.
They expected me to sign up 3 people a week for $450 the first month!!
My DM told me he had harrassed schools that break away.

Which city was it?
Where was your school? Did you sell it back to them?

Mission Viejo. USSD found a buyer to take over the school as well as another instructor.

[Citong Shifu]

Yes Thank you. He lied saying we would make money from there schools. We only made money for ussd.
50 hours, $ 300 a week no taxes taken out sucks! Plus you can never own a school 100%
$250,000 for 33% of a school and all the rest of the money goes back to ussd! Come on how is anybody gonna make a living off that?
Plus a $1,000 a month for black belt manuals.
It would take 30 years just to get your money back from ussd.

What a scam! Should have seen that one coming a mile away :eek:.

[SenseiShellie]

Hey xcakid,
I ran a ussd dojo for those monkeys but it was too expensive. Plus I was tired of the DM who hadn't ran a dojo in 10 years tell me how to run them.

Back when they ran dojo's it was 60 a month for groups not 200 a month.
They expected me to sign up 3 people a week for $450 the first month!!
My DM told me he had harrassed schools that break away.

Which city was it?
Where was your school? Did you sell it back to them?

You got 300 a week? heck, I was lucky to get paid when I was at my last school. It was always "we'll pay you after we pay this bill."

[ninja matt]

Yeah re-structured it for the worst.

[sk girl]

Mission Viejo. USSD found a buyer to take over the school as well as another instructor.

Did they actually give back what you paid for it?
Do you teach anymore?

[sk girl]

What a scam! Should have seen that one coming a mile away :eek:.

Yeah I was young and ussd seem so nice. They tell you how you will make tons of money. The school you ran made tons of money and they kept it all. tell you start asking ?? about the art shaolin kempo, the roots, fred villari, mattera's 9th degree where did he get it. Thats when your an outsider who thinks and ask questions not someone they want in their organization.

[ninja matt]

Yeah I was young and ussd seem so nice. They tell you how you will make tons of money. The school you ran made tons of money and they kept it all. tell you start asking ?? about the art shaolin kempo, the roots, fred villari, mattera's 9th degree where did he get it. Thats when your an outsider who thinks and ask questions not someone they want in their organization.

Man your reading my story. If you look at villaris web sit www.villaristudios.com
They have 10 8th degree's 5 9th degrees and dozens of 5th 6th 7th degrees.
Gee I wonder why ussd only has one 8th degree and 2 6th degrees and five 5th degrees?
Could it be that their greedy ways of not sharing the profits of dojos or letting you own one 100% made everyone quit?
$250,000 for a dojo that you only get 30% is a scam!

[sk girl]

Man your reading my story. If you look at villaris web sit www.villaristudios.com
They have 10 8th degree's 5 9th degrees and dozens of 5th 6th 7th degrees.
Gee I wonder why ussd only has one 8th degree and 2 6th degrees and five 5th degrees?
Could it be that their greedy ways of not sharing the profits of dojos or letting you own one 100% made everyone quit?
$250,000 for a dojo that you only get 30% is a scam!

Ussd greed has cost them a lot of good instructors. This is why they can't open any school worth a %$#@ on the east coast. Plus damasco screwing everyone over on money and instructors.

[Mega-Foot]

Better than a certain someone screwing all the instructors and students for money, eh?....

[SenseiShellie]

Better than a certain someone screwing all the instructors and students for money, eh?....

Actually, that happens too with the organization...it's just hush hush to the outside world.

[sun dragon]

USSD claim they teach shaolin, but where is it?
I didn't know pinons and katas 1-6 were shaolin?:p

Two man fist set is an ed parker form which Fred Villari got back in the 60 training with him.

So where's the shaolin?:confused:
Is Charles mattera lying to all his students about what they are learning?:eek:

Then what else is he lying about?

There is no shaolin in ussd system. If there was any shaolin in their system they wouldn't be the laughing stock of the martial arts community.

He lies about everything. He claims he ran villari's and that ussd has been around since 1968.
He didn't start training tell 1971 under Brown belt Larry Mangone. Dont trust a word that comes out of his lying mouth

[wyatt1970]

try learning the history of ussd,, villari started ussd and then changed it to f.v.d.s.s.d, i don't know the exact year that it started but i know for a fact it was u.s.s.d. before it was f.v.s.s.d.

[NJM]

try learning the history of ussd,, villari started ussd and then changed it to f.v.d.s.s.d, i don't know the exact year that it started but i know for a fact it was u.s.s.d. before it was f.v.s.s.d.

Where is it that we can find a legitimate history of USSD?

[sun dragon]

This is from Master Ken Warners web site http://www.evolutionkarate.com/KempoHistory.html
He was with United Studios tell 2000. I don't know why he left but in 2000 is when Mattera started the 66% ussd schools so that might be it.


1967 Fred Villari began training with Nick Cerio.

1969 Fred Villari earned his Black Belt from Nick Cerio.

1971 Nick Cerio went to Hawaii to train with William Chow. At this time Chow awarded Cerio his 5th Degree Black Belt. Cerio would go on to formulate his own system. Up until this time he taught Karazenpo as he had learned it from George Pesare, with some modifications and additions.

1971 Fred Villari left Nick Cerio and started his own school in Dedham, MA. By this time he was a 2nd Degree Black Belt. He initially called his organization "United Studios of Self Defense" but changed it to "Fred Villari's Studios of Self Defense" after a lawsuit in 1978. Larry Mangone was a fellow student and friend of Villari at the time and left with with him. By this time the system included 1-6 Kata, 1-5 Pinan, Statue of the Crane, Hon Suki and the combinations up to 26.

1971-1988 Fred Villari formulated his system of Shaolin Kempo and proliferated the system through Fred Villari's Studios of Self Defense. By 1975 he added all the combinations from 27 to 50, and the forms, Two Man Fist Set, Sho Tun Kwok, Nengli South, Nengli North, Swift Tigers, Invincible Wall and Five Dragons Face the Four Winds. Then some time between 1982 and 1987 he added the remainder of the combinations from 51 to 108, and the forms, Branches of the Falling Pine, Lost Leopard, Tai Sing Mon, 1000 Buddhas and Snake. Finally, some time after 1991 he added the forms Immortal Monkey and Wounded Tigers. Swift Tigers is a form Nick Cerio created that he called "Circle of the Panther." Two Man Fist Set came from the Parker system. No one knows for sure where the rest of this material all came from. In all likelihood, Villari made it all up. Some people say that Fred Villari worked with Nick Cerio to put together combinations 27 through 39. This may be possible - according to Alan Cunningham and others, Villari and Cerio did continue to work together to some extent for the first few years after Villari went on his own. But regardless of where it all came from, this material is unique to the Villari system and its splinter organizations.

Until 1971 the material up to Black Belt comprised the whole of the Karazenpo system. The Black Belt Society originally formulated Kajukenbo to be the most effective self defense system in the world. They were not interested in creating a system that anyone would study for a lifetime. When Sonny Gascon began teaching in 1958 he did so with the knowledge of a First Degree Black Belt because that was all that existed. Pesare, Cerio and Villari each also began teaching with the same amount of knowledge. Fred Villari added all the forms and techniques beyond First Degree Black Belt in his system. Cerio, Pesare, Gascon and Emperado would do the same with their systems.

1975 Steve DeMasco began training with Larry Mangone in Brockton, MA. He had already had experience in boxing and also trained with George Mattson in Uechi-Ryu Karate for roughly two years. DeMasco claimed he started his Kempo training in 1973. However, Al Cunningham, who also trained with Larry Mangone, states that DeMasco began in 1975, and in fact Cunningham was DeMasco's instructor until the rank of Brown Belt.

1982 Steve DeMasco earned his 4th Degree Black Belt from Fred Villari and his instructor certification in Praying Mantis Kung Fu.

1985 Steve DeMasco became the regional director for the Villari system in Connecticut and was promoted to 5th Degree Black Belt.

1986 Ken Warner began his Kempo training in East Haven, CT in late August of this year.

1988 Charlie Mattera left Fred Villari and started his own chain of schools called United Studios of Self Defense. This sparked a chain reaction. Most of the top Black Belts in the Villari system would follow suit. Fred Bagley, Cal Carozzi, Jimmy Bryant, Bob Nohelty, Jim Brassard and ultimately Steve DeMasco would all leave Fred Villari.

1988 Steve DeMasco earned his 6th Degree Black Belt.

1989 Ken Warner established the Kempo club at Wesleyan University in September and began teaching on his own.

1990 Ken Warner earned his Black Belt from Steve DeMasco while DeMasco was still part of the Villari system in July of this year.

1991 Steve DeMasco earned his 7th Degree Black Belt. This would be the last promotion he would ever receive from Fred Villari.

1992 Ken Warner earned his 2nd Degree Black Belt. This took place in October of 1992 while Master DeMasco was still part of the Villari system.

1993 Steve DeMasco left Fred Villari and started the East Coast operations of United Studios, becoming partners with Charlie Mattera. This split took place in January. DeMasco was a part of Mattera's operation in name only. He had secured an agreement with Mattera giving him total autonomy. This was especially true of DeMasco's martial arts. He was far superior to Mattera in martial arts ability, and never trained with Mattera. DeMasco did not add any material to the system. He eliminated the material that Villari taught beyond 4th Degree Black Belt. Villari claimed the advanced forms in the system were Shaolin forms. No one knows where the forms actually came from but they are not Shaolin Kung Fu forms. DeMasco had trained in several systems of Kung Fu, including the Praying Mantis system with Pui Chan and the Black Tiger system with Tak Wah Eng. He did not add Kung Fu to his Kempo system but rather made the Kung Fu forms available to students in the system. DeMasco dramatically changed the way the material is done. He added many advanced techniques for generating power in punches and kicks and also made the Jujutsu aspects of the system much more powerful by always controlling the spine directly.

[sun dragon]

Here's what Mattera said In Nick Cerios newsletter. I down loaded this from the www.ussd.com
I was fortunate enough to study under Larry Mangone, a brown belt under Professor Nick Cerio.

I do believe Mattera did study under Larry Mangone but in 1971. Larry Mangone was a green belt when he left Nick Cerios with Fred Villari. That means Mattera started with Villaris not Cerios kempo. If he had started with cerios kempo why would he leave with a 2nd degree black belt when Cerio was a 5th?
More then likely Mattera never trained with Cerio tell 1990.

[SenseiShellie]

Here's their Shaolin Forms.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VaO9SK75QTQ

http://youtube.com/watch?v=p3QsCNgdPP8

http://youtube.com/watch?v=W_VL_sEhND0

http://youtube.com/watch?v=SJjk5ev4m9E

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1jhYvAwISKs

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0_fUALRgXRc

I'm sorry...but, I think if you're going to present your style to the Shaolin Monks, why do a Shaolin form? I would do a Kempo form. It doesn't make sense...besides, the "Shaolin" forms they are doing look like Karate anyway. The person that looks the best is Cynthina Rothrock...and it's because she's not USSD from the beginning.

[sk girl]

Here's what Mattera said In Nick Cerios newsletter. I down loaded this from the www.ussd.com
I was fortunate enough to study under Larry Mangone, a brown belt under Professor Nick Cerio.

I do believe Mattera did study under Larry Mangone but in 1971. Larry Mangone was a green belt when he left Nick Cerios with Fred Villari. That means Mattera started with Villaris not Cerios kempo. If he had started with cerios kempo why would he leave with a 2nd degree black belt when Cerio was a 5th?
More then likely Mattera never trained with Cerio tell 1990.


Yes Master Larry was a green belt when he left Pro. Cerios in 71.
I dont think Mattera ever train with Pro. Cerio either tell 1989. Yeah why would he leave with a 2nd degree when Cerio was a 5th degree?

[SenseiShellie]

Yes Master Larry was a green belt when he left Pro. Cerios in 71.
I dont think Mattera ever train with Pro. Cerio either tell 1989. Yeah why would he leave with a 2nd degree when Cerio was a 5th degree?

I heard Mattera say once that it was out of convenience...or maybe I was daydreaming at that meeting.

[sun dragon]

I heard Mattera say once that it was out of convenience...or maybe I was daydreaming at that meeting.
That might be true? I think he was a yellow belt or orange belt at best if he did study with Cerio in 1971.

[NJM]

The USSD article on Wikipedia is being cited for deletion, and this time it will probably happen. If you want the USSD exploitation of Wikipedia for advertisement purposes to end, please leave a comment and sign your username by typing (~~~~) on the deletion talk page here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/United_Studios_of_Self_Defense

Main article here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Studios_of_Self_Defense

[sun dragon]

Here's their Shaolin Forms.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VaO9SK75QTQ

http://youtube.com/watch?v=p3QsCNgdPP8

http://youtube.com/watch?v=W_VL_sEhND0

http://youtube.com/watch?v=SJjk5ev4m9E

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1jhYvAwISKs

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0_fUALRgXRc

I'm sorry...but, I think if you're going to present your style to the Shaolin Monks, why do a Shaolin form? I would do a Kempo form. It doesn't make sense...besides, the "Shaolin" forms they are doing look like Karate anyway. The person that looks the best is Cynthina Rothrock...and it's because she's not USSD from the beginning.

HAHA Your right there forms do look like karate forms. They need a real kungfu teacher to teach them forms.

[xcakid]

OK I am perplexed. When did Cynthia Rothrock join in with USSD. If I am not mistaken she is with GM Leung Shum Ying Jow Pai system.

[xcakid]

Well crap, wrong Rothrock. Never mind. :o

[SenseiShellie]

OK I am perplexed. When did Cynthia Rothrock join in with USSD. If I am not mistaken she is with GM Leung Shum Ying Jow Pai system.

She joined in like 2003/2004

[Kempoist]

She joined in like 2003/2004

Hey Shellie. Been a long time. I hope things are going well for you. It was great getting in touch with you after my separation from USSD...nice to know I wasn't alone in the slander.

Thanks again for the ride from the airport too ;)

We need to keep in touch.

John

[Citong Shifu]

Here's their Shaolin Forms.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VaO9SK75QTQ

http://youtube.com/watch?v=p3QsCNgdPP8

http://youtube.com/watch?v=W_VL_sEhND0

http://youtube.com/watch?v=SJjk5ev4m9E

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1jhYvAwISKs

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0_fUALRgXRc

I'm sorry...but, I think if you're going to present your style to the Shaolin Monks, why do a Shaolin form? I would do a Kempo form. It doesn't make sense...besides, the "Shaolin" forms they are doing look like Karate anyway. The person that looks the best is Cynthina Rothrock...and it's because she's not USSD from the beginning.

LOL, this is not Shaolin Kungfu. They appear to be fragments of traditional CMA forms at best.... And, what is this walking through the form crap... It looked really, really, weak and unstable for being Shaolin. Anywho, so sad. I'm kinda speachless...

[TenTigers]

this hurts the eyes.
improper structure,
incorrect breathing,
no yiu-ma,
no faht-ging,
just posing.

[SenseiShellie]

LOL, this is not Shaolin Kungfu. They appear to be fragments of traditional CMA forms at best.... And, what is this walking through the form crap... It looked really, really, weak and unstable for being Shaolin. Anywho, so sad. I'm kinda speachless...

They are doing KEMPO and trying to call it Shaolin Kung Fu.

this hurts the eyes.
improper structure,
incorrect breathing,
no yiu-ma,
no faht-ging,
just posing.

Didn't mean to hurt your eyes...

[SenseiShellie]

Hey John...

Where'd you go?

[sun dragon]

They are doing KEMPO and trying to call it Shaolin Kung Fu.



Didn't mean to hurt your eyes...


I hate how they try to pass their art off as shaolin when all it is Fred Villari kempo.
The real screwed up thing about is they lie to everyone there and tell them that it's shaolin. Most of them have never studied before so they believe everything their master says. There should be a web site that exposes Martial Arts frauds.

[Immortal_Dragon]

http://www.bullshido.com

[sun dragon]

http://www.bullshido.com

I hear they wont say anything bad about ussd because they threaten to sue bullshido.

[Kempoist]

I hear they wont say anything bad about ussd because they threaten to sue bullshido.

They didn't threaten...they DID sue.

[sun dragon]

They didn't threaten...they DID sue.
Can you go into more detail ? Or PM me.

[xcakid]

Well I just saw something interesting this past weekend. I competed in Chin Woo Federation Taiji Legacy. During sparring on Sunday. I saw a couple of kids wearing USSD shirts. They were competing in point sparring. Not sure if any of them competed in forms, and if they did, what forms they used. They were wearing the shirts as they walked in but donned a KF uniform when they geared up.

Go figure.

[SenseiShellie]

Well I just saw something interesting this past weekend. I competed in Chin Woo Federation Taiji Legacy. During sparring on Sunday. I saw a couple of kids wearing USSD shirts. They were competing in point sparring. Not sure if any of them competed in forms, and if they did, what forms they used. They were wearing the shirts as they walked in but donned a KF uniform when they geared up.

Go figure.

LOL! That's kind of funny...did you compete?

[xcakid]

LOL! That's kind of funny...did you compete?


Yep. Did open hand forms in the traditional northern intemediate division (I used Zhaoyang Quan), traditional northern intermediate division weapons forms(Dragon Straight Sword form) and I was gonna spar. There was no one in my division though. Intermediate Executive Mens(old man division) Did not want to get first just for showing up so, I did not even bother. Instead I helped corner one of my classmates San Shou matches.

I am retired from San Shou. And after watching the matches last Sunday, that is a permanent retirement.

Details: Click here (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47001&page=4)

[TenTigers]

I have seen USSD and Villari guys wear chinese uniforms in the rings,only to take them off after and wear their t-shirts. I can understand this as there is alot of bias towards them.

[SenseiShellie]

There is a lot of bias towards them because they aren't really CMA schools

[sk girl]

I hate how they try to pass their art off as shaolin when all it is Fred Villari kempo.
The real screwed up thing about is they lie to everyone there and tell them that it's shaolin. Most of them have never studied before so they believe everything their master says. There should be a web site that exposes Martial Arts frauds.

They need to be straight up with all their students about what they are learning.

[sun dragon]

They need to be straight up with all their students about what they are learning.


Yeah I doubt that will ever happen.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

They need to be straight up with all their students about what they are learning.

What!??, and lose the students who decide that they were being ripped off to leave?

[sk girl]

What!??, and lose the students who decide that they were being ripped off to leave?



LOL! If they ever did train in other martial arts they would know they are being scamed by ussd!

[kingboxer]

They remind me of so doshin in a way, claiming shaolin as their origin but repackaging karate and calling it traditonal shaolin.

:cool:

[Wildwoo]

Originally Posted by sun dragon
I hate how they try to pass their art off as shaolin when all it is Fred Villari kempo.
The real screwed up thing about is they lie to everyone there and tell them that it's shaolin. Most of them have never studied before so they believe everything their master says. There should be a web site that exposes Martial Arts frauds.

Actually USSD has contributed a lot of money to Shaolin Temple. If you have been there surly you have seen the big a s s carved stone thingy when you stroll on in.

They were major $ponsors in the US KStar and some of their top student$ were US KStar finalist$$. Their forms had Shaolin-ish Wushuy flavor.

Several of the Shaolin Monks in LA were wearing USSD T-shirts until somebody hipped them to the Errrr shady reputation U$$D.

They really do teach $haolin. Really! Just not right away. LOL!:D

They got a hell of a marketing program.

[tattooedmonk]

They need to be straight up with all their students about what they are learning.I agree. The few people that I have known who practice in this system seem to very well know that the foundation is basic kempo/ karate, but have yet to see Shaolin, except for the forms that they say are Shaolin.:rolleyes::D

[tattooedmonk]

LOL! If they ever did train in other martial arts they would know they are being scamed by ussd!Boy, you really have it in for these people, don't you!?!?!

[sun dragon]

Actually USSD has contributed a lot of money to Shaolin Temple. If you have been there surly you have seen the big a s s carved stone thingy when you stroll on in.

They were major $ponsors in the US KStar and some of their top student$ were US KStar finalist$$. Their forms had Shaolin-ish Wushuy flavor.

Several of the Shaolin Monks in LA were wearing USSD T-shirts until somebody hipped them to the Errrr shady reputation U$$D.

They really do teach $haolin. Really! Just not right away. LOL!:D

They got a hell of a marketing program.


They didn't teach any shaolin when I was with them.

Do you have any stories about their shady reputation?

[Wildwoo]

{SNIP}

Do you have any stories about their shady reputation?

Why no I do not.









This forum however has several in it's archive.