彈腿 Tan Tui Information

[ngokfei]

Just some sites with info.

12 Road Chin Woo version short history
http://www.sanshou.net/php/news/news_xiang.php?inid=1105260784

12 Road Chin Woo Version Description of each row in Chinese
http://www.cc.nctu.edu.tw/~kunfu/sp312.htm
http://bdjh.kl.edu.tw/~9202/Martial-art/History/leg/leg.htm

12 Road Tan Tui VCD
http://tw.f3.page.bid.yahoo.com/tw/auction/c28636940?u=little_newkimo

10 Road Tan Tui History
http://www.geocities.com/yunhsinyoung/chinese/tantui.html

10 Road Form Description
http://myweb.hinet.net/home9/zeusray/result/tantuei10.htm

Wang Zi Ping’s Cha Quan 10 Road Tan Tui
http://www.web.nyist.net/~rf/sywj/%CA%AE%C2%B7%B5%AF%CD%C8/

Han Qing Tan’s 10 Road Tan Tui (Kuoshu)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiKwzMg9LTk

Cool Wushu Book in slide format
http://holiday.jcei.gov.cn/hsjl/tantui.htm

[ngokfei]

Would like to start getting your insights into the forms: Applications, Theory and Spirit. We will be using this Chin Woo Tan Tui Layout.

http://www.wushu.cz/shaolin_tantui_cz.html

Using Wing Kit Lam's Book
(Cantonese)(Mandarin)(English)

Lets begin with Row #1

Chung Cheuih/Chong Chui(Rushing Against, Beat/Strike)
================================================== ========
Movement #1 & 2

Lahp Jing Chyun Jauh Jong/Li Zheng Chuan Xiu Zhuang
(To Stand,Upright,to go through/pierce, Sleeve, Stake/Post)

aka:
Lahp Jing Sik Duhng Jok/Li Zheng Shi Dong Zuo
(to Stand, Upright, Form, to move/motion, to make/do/compose)
&
Hoi Sik/Kai Shi (Open Form)
&
Ping Bo Chung Kyuhn/Bing Bu Chong Quan(to Combine, Step, Rush Against, Fist)

this action is used to begin/end each row.

The 1st action utilzing the palm can be described in a few Defensive ways:

1. Gwok Jeung/Guai Zhang (to slap, Palm)
2. Paak Jeung/Pai Zhang (to pat, Palm)
3. Dong Jeung/Dang Zhang (to block/obstruct, Palm)

How would you describe the "palm technique" of the opening sequence?

for me:

Primary appliation is a simple downward palm block followed up with the vertical punch to the face.

Secondary application I teach is the outward "Pat" block the target can be varried to include the arm pit or neck.

a variation I like to teach is to hook the opponents lead leg with my right foot and to pull to unbalance while I catch the opponents wrist while slipping their strike and using the Knuckles to penetrate the armpit cavity or the ribs. (then to follow up with an inner arm wrap)

[Sal Canzonieri]

I know the higher level applications to all these moves and they look like punches and kicks on the surface but they are all done as takedown moves.

[yu shan]

When someone states this, I know they know higher levels.

ngokfei

Thank you for putting up such great info. My passion is Tanglang, but Tan tui is very cool, I taught some of the roads w/two person in the early years. Great for newbies and I personally think is good material.

[Citong Shifu]

I've seen many posts on the form tan tui. I was wondering if anyone has ever looked deeper into tan tui than the standard form that we often see or hear of today (10, 12, or 14 road).

This is very interesting. The tan tui we normally see today is sequenced moves that train primarily long fist movements. This is why its seen as a primary set in long arm boxing styles.

Actually, Tan Tui is found in every style/system. Any technique or combination that is trained on both right and left side while moving down the floor 3 to 50 steps is actually considered tan tai training. At least in the many years before the standard tan tui set was developed.

Just wondering if any of you had heard this explanation before. What are your thoughts on this particular description of pre-standardized tan tui training?

Citong Shaolin.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Citong Sifu:

That type of "pre-standardized" tan tui still exists. It was not called tan tui then nor now. It was referred to as basic movements: "chipen gong"or "chipen dunzo." I think there has been an erroneous categorization of basic movements under the name of tan tui in recent times.

nqokfei:

The palm is used in all directions. Up, down, left, right, forward, backward, circling in, circling out. I just don't want you to say that I ignored you. :)


mickey

[r.(shaolin)]

Shaolin Tan Tui Shi Er Lu 譚腿十二路 was not just a Jingwu Tiyu Hui; 精武體育會 invention from the early 1900's, nor is it a generic term, but an old Shaolin Si set which is an adaptation of an even older northern 10 section set.

Codification /systematisation of martial methods into sequences is not recent but an ancient practice going back to at least the 11th century B.C. called Xiang Wu 象 武. These sequences were the core of military training. Sets – lian quan tao (練拳套);lian bing qi (練兵器);dui lian (對 練), etc. – are very much part of Chinese martial arts since antiquity.

Sets of short sequenced combinations and left and right versions, are not recent innovations but characteristic of old martial, medical and religious calisthenics since ancient times.

In the Shaolin tradition that has been passed on to me, Ji Ben Dong Zuo (Chin.: 基本動作) is a set, not just a generic term – one of the first taught. The terms in this name are very meaningful.
Ji (基): base; foundation; basic;
Ben (本): root; foundation; basis;
Dong (動) to use; to act; to move; note that this character is made up of two parts – heavy and strength;
Zuo (作): to do; - note as well, that this character is made of two parts – person and suddenly active.
If I am not mistaken there is a set practiced by at Shaolin Si today with a similar name as well.

r.

[mickey]

Hello r.(shaolin),

While it may refer to a particular set in Shaolin, I have heard the term used generically. Now, it may be that the generic term may have had its origin with a particular Shaolin set.

mickey

[mickey]

More on that first posture....


This posture is used by the practitioners of Bak Sing Choy Li Fut-- guarding hand accompanied by jabbing attacks and shuffling steps. It says alot about the students of Master Tam Sam (they enjoyed fighting) and what they received from Master Ku of Bak Sil Lum. Also of note is that the posture suggests a "strong side forward" approach to your opponent, much like Jeet Kune Do; and like Jeet Kune Do, this posture can be used to intercept, exemplifying the phase "the arms are like two doors.."

I have seen this posture done with feet together, knee raised in a single leg stance, and also done with a immediate kick in the opposite direction once the punch is done to start the next road.

Enough from me.


mickey

[mickey]

?????????Gosh


Commentary on the first road:

The first road is the most important road of the set. It develops and channels the raw strength of the practitioner's body and, through constant refinement, can be a true indicator of a practitioner's coordination and skill level. The first road, throughout the practitioner's life, is never really mastered; instead, it is worked on continually. I remember reading about Adam Hsu and how he would teach one road a month. If you are serious about developing a good tan tui foundation, you would need to spend longer than one month on the first road before progressing further.

Since Tan tui has been incorporated into other styles, the first road can serve as a marker for how power is issued within a particular style.

Auxilliary work can include running, weight traning and calisthenics. Apparatus work can include sandbag striking, the use of wrist weights, weighted vest, and the use of a body striking bag for the shins and feet.

The first road has a minimum of four throwing techniques (better called falls), as well as a couple of immobilizations. There is definitely a lot more in the first road with regard to techniques. I do not believe in spoonfeeding for self learning is such a wonderful odyssey.

I remember reading on another thread that a key move in the first road is called "Black Tiger Steals The Heart"(a reverse punch in some versions). Some have taken that to mean an attack to the opponents chest. Sure, that is cool. But if one is to study seriously, one will understand that "Heart" refers to courage. Every strike should be strong enough to end the fight. Period. So, if you are dealing with a opponent and you crack his shin or knock him out, stopping him from continuing, you have taken his "heart."


mickey

[ngokfei]

thanks for that indepth analogy Mickey.

Row #1
(see attatchment)


Here are the other sections of Row #1

Section 2:

Left Bow One Character Strike
Jo/Zuo, Gung/Gong, Yat/Yi, Jih/Zi, Cheuih/Chui

Section 3:

Horse, Step, Left ,to Pull, Whip
Mah/Ma, Bo/Bu, Jo/Zuo, Laai/La, Bin/Bian

Section 4:

Left, Twist, Step, Pull Up, Strike
Jo/Zuo,__, Bo/Bu, Liu/Liao, Cheuih/Chui

Section 5:

Left, Twist Step, To Grind/Beat/Drum, Fist
Jo/Zuo, ___, Bo/Bu, Leiuh/Lei, Kyuhn/Quan

Section 6:

To Grind/Beat/Drum, Fist, Right Inch Leg (Kick)
Leiuh/Lei, Kyuhn/Quan, Yauh/You, Chyuhn/Cun, Teui/Tui


Alternate Descriptions: (from the Cha Version)

Section 3:
Horse Step, the top/to support the head/offending, Elbow
Ding/Ding, Jaau/Zhou

Section 4:
Bow Step, Level, to place, display, Swing
Pihng/Ping, Baai/Bai

Section 5:
To Pull, Forearm, to Grind/Beat/Drum, Fist
Waahn/Wan, Bei/bi

Section 6:

Spring Leg

[ngokfei]

just a quick sketch of the Row #1 matching

It is basically going through what I like to call "Primary Application" which is obvious to the beginner.

[ngokfei]

Closest things I could find, there are others that are more simple

[ngokfei]

Oh, I jumped ahead a bit.

This is just some notes on the striking and trapping aspect of the 1st Action/Opening

I use what is available as I'm a really lousy in the art/drawing department. Stick figures is about it. (I really love the stick man website, very funny)

[mickey]

Hi ngokfei,

I like how you have collected the information that you gained.

I see we are on the same Wiing Chun/Jeet Kune Do plane with the opening moves. When it comes to the throwing, you are presenting an understanding of the 12 roads with that clip you shared. I clearly see the other roads blending in to make those throws for the first road work. A lot of people do not realize that those roads are kaleidoscopic. That can be confusing to the neophyte.


mickey

[ngokfei]

Thanks Mickey
Actually I did this compilation about 5 years ago (had a bit of time on my hands back then, the baby began to sleep through the night:D)

here's some more of it. I've got a box load

[mickey]

Hi ngokfei,

Don't forget to save something for your students. Considering the amount of participation in this thread, you would be better off giving it to them.

Weren't you asking about curriculum suggestions? You already have it, man. What you can do is teach 3-4 roads a year (in addition to your eagle claw curriculum) and then focus on usage through drills and sparring. You can teach it as a separate course to your eagle claw or integrated within it. You can also elect to save it for special students.

But don't throw it all away on the internet. It is not worth it. The worst case scenario will be that some money monger will take your info and present it in some book/dvd/vcd as a function of his own intelligence. That is the danger of forums. Then again, it is your knowledge. Do what you feel comfortable with.

I am happy to see that there is someone out there who appreciates Tan Tui as I do.


mickey

[djcaldwell]

Although to some extent I do agree with mickey - I'm very glad you have shared what you did. I was 22 when I stopped studying with Anthony Tardy and at the time I swore my brain was a steel trap and nothing would escape it.

I had written down some of the roads and the rest as I used to practice them every day I thought would never be lost. But as I venutred on to other styles low and behold I forgot them. I just found my notebook from when I was with Tardy and was so angry that I had lost so much.

THEN CAME THIS THREAD and a BIG piece of my training is back to me so thank you for sharing. I started with these forms and applications and spent the majority of my training with them. They gave me a great foundation to begin with and I'm loving this thread - although I've been lurking until now I just wanted to express my gratitude and hope it does continue on.

[tattooedmonk]

but what are the names of each of the 10 and 12 roads??

[djcaldwell]

but what are the names of each of the 10 and 12 roads??



As I learned them each road was numbered not named - they were refered to as sprining legs 1, 2, 3.... From other schools that I know they refer to them in the same manner.

[Shaolin101]

We use tan tui as part of our grading syllabus. White belts learn number 1 and do it 3 times (start going to left forward stance then after the kick do it on the right side then left side and finish) we do an application too but i think it is different to anything i can see on the pictures (no takedowns).

2nd grade will then have to do 1 and 2, third 1,2 and 3 etc. For the last couple of grades you have to do 2 new ones plus all the old so its a good memory jog!

After black belt we do what we would call a master form where you just do each section once 1 through to 12 so no left right left - makes for a nice decent length form.

thanks for the info - its always nice to see that what you are learning is done elsewhere and you can share info between different styles (i learn it as part of hung kuen!)

[ngokfei]

hree's a link to the Chin Woo form and its names for each road

http://www.chinwoo.com/USA/tan_tui.htm

[mickey]

ngokfei,

In your studies on Tan Tui, did you ever come across another, older, name for it?


mickey

[ngokfei]

Just the usual Pond or Spring/Snap leg

I did finally locate a copy of the original Chin Woo Tan Tui book. I had the drawing one for years but the photos make it more dimensional.

As soon as I get my scanner program back up and running :mad: I'll send you it.

I'd like to hear more about the 18 hands and their relation ships to Tan Tui and Duan Da.

[mickey]

Hi ngokfei,

I thank you in advance for the scan. I also have the one with drawings.

The connection I made between Tan Tui and Lohan technique came from my meditation practice (a lot of stuff that can be learned that way). Seeing that Shaolin and Tan Tui are actually related to the point of being one and the same coming from another source was a pleasant surprise.


mickey

[mickey]

ngokfei,

I remember in my early studies and research into the mechanics of TanTui that the only thing that came close to looking like TanTui would be the Lama, Hop Gar and White Crane styles. In reading the book on Hop Gar Kung Fu by Chin/Staples, they mention Lohan as being one of the styles that came from the Tibetan style. I came across this knowledge before I ever heard of the Duan Da set. When I did find out about the Duan Da set, it still did not click until I did some serious meditation on the matter (some might call it math, twelve plus six is 18! DUHH). Even then, I had no other proof. The reference to Monk Xia Ji to Lohan and Tan Tui was a major WOW for me.


mickey

[ngokfei]

That's very interesting as I really didn't start to delve into the deeper workings of Tan Tui until after I had begun training in swaijiao.

Funnything also is that during that same time I was learning some lama as well.

[yu shan]

It is very possible that I have missed this along the way, but I have not heard anyone speak of the ling side of the roads. Do any of you train the two-person?

Jim

[mickey]

Hi yu shan,

I do not train the two man form. That was a creation of Chao Lien Ho and, IMHO, it really does not contribute much to the understanding of the techniques contained within the form.

mickey

[ngokfei]

I got to learn the Chin Woo version. An okay set but I saw that it needed some minor adjustments here and there to make it more compatible with the version of Tan Tui that I learned from my Eagle Claw teacher.

If you check out KFWS magazine this past year had an issue on the 2 person muslim version of Tan Tui.

2 person sets are nice to help introduce students to the flow and counter methods but for me actual 2 person fighting skills are much more interesting and applicable.

a funny quote from the late great Chan Tai San

"partner sets teach you how NOT to fight".
He based this observation on how everything is able to be countered which is not so in the real world self defense.

[mickey]

Greetings,

More the first road:

In some styles of Tan Tui, a reverse punch is used in the first road; in others it appears in the second road. It is often overlooked; yet, it is there and should be worked on. The reverse punch, according to Master Scott "Genghis" Wong, is the strongest punch in the Jow Ga system. Particular attention was paid to its development. The reverse punch is also popular with Japanese, Korean(I think they are getting away from it), and Okinawan styles. The reverse punch corresponds to the right cross (and also hooks in my book) in Western Boxing. Yet, it has been ignored by a quite a few CMA practitioners. It needs to come back into use.

Re:"Every strike should be strong enough to end the fight"

Once you have began to approach this point you will have to take the energy that you have gained for a single strike and divide it in half-- that is what you have to do, conceptually, for the second road where you punch and kick at the same time. For some, the difficult of striking forcefully two strikes simultaneously can be difficult. The trick is to ease back on the strength, a little, and then slowly build back into it with a passion.


mickey

[ngokfei]

The Eagle Claw version I learned camed from the Chin woo 12 road. It was condensed into 10 roads using the reverse punch over the vertical fist.

While it is a stronger punch it's weakness are in stand alone speed as well as it leaves the side ribs exposed longer then a vertical fist strike.

The Reverse punch is at its peak when it supports a bridging technique (whether a arm or leg bridge).

Vertical Fist I utilize more as a jabing while the reverse is better at overall penetrating power.

[hulkout]

I'll be starting northern shaolin lessons later this week. I was told that the first thing I'll be learning is Tan Tui. Can anyone give me some background information on it. If it's the first thing I'm learning, I'd imagine it must be a very strong form to teach the fundamentals.

[mawali]

Tan Tui is a general description to describe 'long fist' form(s) that teachers pattern of movement, and as an extension, usage and application.

Zhaquan, changquan, etc have thier own version of tantui so it does not refer to a specific set and only to that set.

[David Jamieson]

do a search on it here, there are many threads all about tan tui (tom toy, tam tui et al) and it's various iterations.