Question about book

[ghostexorcist]

Has anyone one here ever heard of a book called Shan Kowk Chi? I'm afraid I don't know the characters or the mandarin pinyin version of its title. I was told by eagle claw grandmaster Lilly Lau that it has information about Jow Tong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jow_Tong).

The book might be Shan KWOK Chi. She might have mispelled it while typing the email.

[BruceSteveRoy]

i don't know about the book but just so you know, your signature is awesome.

[ghostexorcist]

i don't know about the book but just so you know, your signature is awesome.

Thanks, I got it from a sketch off of the Benny Hill Show.

[CFT]

You don't mean "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" (San Guo Zhi/Saam Gwok Zi) do you? Different time period if you look at the Wiki entries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_of_the_Three_Kingdoms
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jow_Tong

[GeneChing]

...you should engage Outlaws of the Marsh. Here's our Outlaws of the March special issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=234). Romance of the Three Kingdoms should really be read first, since many of the characters in Outlaws are descended from Three Kingdoms. The same can be said for General Yue Fei. It's almost like these three classics are a trilogy written by different authors.

[ghostexorcist]

You don't mean "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" (San Guo Zhi/Saam Gwok Zi) do you? Different time period if you look at the Wiki entries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_of_the_Three_Kingdoms
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jow_Tong

I've emailed Grandmaster Lau back to see if she could provide me with the correct chinese characters. She only told me Shan Kowk Chi. I'm assuming she knows the difference between Romance of the Three Kingdoms and the other book. However, Saam Gwok Zi does sound very similar. (I'm afraid I don't know any Cantonese.) Jow Tong lived in the Song Dynasty (960-1279 CE) so there is a huge time difference there. I wrote the wikipedia page about Jow Tong.

I know about Jow Tong's connection with the Water Margin bandits. However, he is not mentioned in the Water Margin. Nor are they mentioned in the Yue Fei Zhuan (Yue Fei Biography) that was compiled in 1345. The connection between Jow and the bandits is only folklore.

Gene, did you ever contact your friend about calling the Wudang Master in Nanjing?

[GeneChing]

I know about Jow Tong's connection with the Water Margin bandits. However, he is not mentioned in the Water Margin. Nor are they mentioned in the Yue Fei Zhuan (Yue Fei Biography) that was compiled in 1345. The connection between Jow and the bandits is only folklore. It's *all* folklore, all three of those novels. The historical basis is very scant. That makes this kind of research tricky - remember what they said in Liberty Valance about legend and fact. ;)

As for that translator, I sent her an email. She hasn't responded yet. It's rather a long shot, so I'd pursue other means.

[ghostexorcist]

It's *all* folklore, all three of those novels. The historical basis is very scant. That makes this kind of research tricky - remember what they said in Liberty Valance about legend and fact. ;)

As for that translator, I sent her an email. She hasn't responded yet. It's rather a long shot, so I'd pursue other means.

I know there are at least three different versions of the Yue Fei Zhuan. The one I am referring to is an historical record compiled by the state in 1345 and has some usable material (depsite there being supernatural elements present). The other two or more are fiction. One "wuxia" version of the Yue Fei Zhuan was written by Huanzhulouzhu (1902-1961). I believe it was this version that Dr. Yang Jwing Ming used to create the Yue Fei bio that he prints in his books. If it is not the version, there are some striking similarities that need to be explained away.

I'm not trying to connect Jow Tong with the water margin bandits at all. The Shuo Yue Quan Zhuan is a fictional 17th century treatment of Yue Fei's biography which mentions the bandits Lin Chong and Lu Junyi as former students of Jow Tong. However, it states Lin and Lu died before Jow took Yue as his student. But the book says he took 7 year old Yue as his student in 1110, whereas the events of the Water Margin did not kick off until 1119 and the two bandits didn't die until roughly 1123. That's a 13 year difference in story chronology. Since both stories are fiction, there are bound to be numerous discrepancies. First off, the Lin and Lu from the Water Margin are fictional. I won’t pretend to know which of the 108 bandits were real or false, but I know only a handful were real, the rest are not. I believe Lu Junyi was mentioned in the “History of the Song” in the bio of Song Jiang. I don't recall reading Lin Chong's name so that probably means he's fake. That totally discredits any historical connections with Jow. Also, Jow Tong or Zhou Tong was never mentioned in the Water Margin. He is not to be confused with the similarly named “Little King” as both names are spelled the same in English but with different Chinese characters. Also, the fictional Zhou Tong dies at the end.

There was at least 100 years between the first publishing of the Water Margin and the Shuo Yue Quan Zhuan. So the connection between Jow and the bandits had to occur during this time. Sir T.L. Yang, the modern translator of Yue’s fictional biography states in the beginning of his translation:

The work is a historical novel in form, but it is in fact based almost mainly on legends which were current amongst the common people for centuries. Indeed some of the events described there are nothing more than Qian Cai's own imagination

So the connection could have been made by Qian Cai, the book’s author, and then became apart of popular folklore.

I've been in contact with Stephen Selby, author of "Chinese Archery", and he assures me that the section of the historical Yue Fei Zhuan that mentions Jow teaching Yue the bow and crossbow is "formulaic", meaning it was the basic storyline used for noted historical archers (ie. Li Guang, Zhuo Dong, Ghengis Khan, etc.) So the ONLY thing we really know about Jow Tong is his name and that he might have had some skill with archery.

The complete absence of historical background material on Jow Tong completely negates his involvement with any martial arts associated with Yue Fei. Eagle Claw people claim he taught Yue Fei so-called “Elephant boxing”, which was later turned into the “108 Qinna techniques”. There is no historical basis for this. The same could be said for Chuojiao and Xingyi.

Anyway, back to my original post, I would still like to track down that book if it is not the Romance of the Three Kingdoms.

Thanks Gene. Even if she doesn’t write you back, I still appreciate the effort!

[ghostexorcist]

Stephen Selby, author of Chinese Archery, just wrote me back and said the book was Romance of the Three Kingdoms. I think Grandmaster Lau is confusing it for another book. I wrote Grandmaster leung as well, hopefully he will be more helpful.

[SPJ]

there are many versions of legends of 3 kingdoms.

San Guo Zi.

San Guo Yan Yi. by luo guan zhong.

http://www.threekingdoms.com/index.htm?PHPSESSID=18fdf851ff68aa8398c6ddb4575f28 43

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:)

[ghostexorcist]

there are many versions of legends of 3 kingdoms.

San Guo Zi.

San Guo Yen Yi.

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:)

But do they all take place during the Han-Three Kingdoms period? If so, they are of no use to me (at the moment anyways). Zhou lived in the Song (10th-13th century).