internal arts and weight training

[batesy]

Sorry if this topic has been done to death but I need some advice. Over the last year or so the focus of my training has shifted more towards bagua/tai chi, from an initial background in wing chun. I would like to have the opinion of the forum's internal stylists on the use of weights, is it recommended or not? I gave up weight use and focused instead upon standing and internal forms, I felt looser and more relaxed but began to lose muscle tone. Help please folks.

[PlasticSquirrel]

both internal and external styles use different methods to train the muscles. for this reason alone, i would not recommend weight training.

weight training is also prone to bulk you up and encourage the larger, outer muscles, while neglecting the inner muscles. it is much better to train in postures to even out muscles.

when you train in postures, you are inadvertantly keeping up the tone and shape of your more used and strong muscles, while strengthening any that are not very strong yet. in this way, if you consistantly train, you will even out the shape of your body quite easily, and obtain the sort of muscular power you need for the internal styles.

to keep the muscles you have now, just train in postures enough. if they start to disappear or something, it is because they are not used (and thus not needed) for your styles, and therefore pretty useless for you. if you want real power, just train in the postures, and you will get it, regardless of what happens to your muscles. if you are a bit thinner, you will have more power than you ever did before by training in those postures.

[Repulsive Monkey]

If you like doing weight training then fair enough, however it will not improve your internal training and if done too much it will slow down your internal development. Internal development will set about (especially through standing postures) to re-condition the muscles by loosening out long-term blockages and Qi stagnation again usually by standing postures but also mostly through relaxation too. By tensing the muscles up, whilst also in your life engaging in weight traing, you may run the risk of constantly undoing all the internal work with the weight training. Muscle mass is probably the biggest hinderance for internal stylists when you think about it. It requires more blood saturation to the muscles and that in turn draws necessary Qi away from its vital organ use elsewhere in the body.

[stubbs]

LOL - plasticsquirrel is a cool name, i think anything with squirrels generaly makes me laugh.

i don't see too much problem with weight training, just as long as you mix it with a bit of aerobic work so that the muscles stay lean, and make sure the weights aren't too heavy, use the weights to train for endurance if you don't want to bulk up.

"satisfaction loses,and humility gains"

[Kumkuat]

If you're really serious about your internal arts, than you have to quit your weight training or cut it down to once every 2 weeks or something. Weight training and internal training are two very different things. When you correctly train with neijia principals, you're trying to unlearn everything and move in a different matter. Weight training will not help that at all.

There are weight training exercises in neijia like the iron ball or heavy weapons, but that's way way after you learned the basics.

Of course, I am a bad example since I also do weight training since I love it way too much to give it up, but I do realized that in some day, I would have to eventually give it up.

[Fu-Pow]

Hmmm..well I'm very low level in internal arts...but my gut feeling is that weight training basically has nothing to do with internal arts. It can be counterproductive if you mistake muscular strength for internal strength. But let me ask you a question. If you have internal strength then why would you want to develop external strength? They both achieve the same thing (ie strength), they are just mechanically different. Are you putting your eggs in both baskets? I train both internal and external but the external is mainly for cardiovascular and muscle tone plus it is easier to apply. If you want to train weights to look good, well you might as well quit the MA's because just because you are good fighter doensn't mean your going to be the men's fitness poster boy. In fact I'm a bit skeptical of people in MA's that are superbuff....Van Damage anybody?

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[Braden]

I don't see what the issue is. Weight-training, contrary to what everyone seems to think, does not necessarily make you larger, nor tenser, nor less flexible. If you want power, you're better off spending your time on your internal exercises, assuming you have a basic level of fitness. If you like weight-lifting for the sake of weight-lifting, do it properly and in moderation and you should be fine.

[Fu-Pow]

Not disagreeing with you Braden, but I might add that depending on the type of weight training you do you can get bulky and less flexible. There are three types of training.....

1-Low weight, high rep. This is mainly for toning and burning fat.

2-Middle weight, middle rep. This is for building muscle mass.

3-High weight, low rep. This is for building strength.


Most external MA's don't seek to train isolated muscle groups but rather train groups of muscles together. So you might see excercises that are designed to train a larger group of muscles without the use of weights. For example, in most external arts you see pushups. These train a variety of muscles to work together (ie the triceps, chest, lats, together). These are for most people a middle weight, middle rep excercise, ie mass building. So you might see in some schools jumping pushups which put a larger load on the muscles and are more of strength building excercise.

Internal arts are a little different in that they ask ALL the muscles of the body to work together, not just groups of muscles. The muscles and bones align in such a way that you create a path to the ground. So really it is the ground that is doing the "work." In internal arts you see excersises that are designed to test this ground path (eg the Taiji heavy iron sphere) but is not really designed to build muscle.

So it seems like too much lifting weights might be counterproductive to internal goals (ie body unity.)

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[Braden]

Of course some weight-lifting can reduce flexibility and add bulk. And some can't. So it's silly to generalize.

Internal arts do NOT ask all of the muscles of the body to work together. This is just the party line. It's very clear that many muscles you specifically want to cut out of the equation in the internal arts (biceps, trapz), whereas others are extremely important (triceps, lats, intercostals).

"So it seems like too much lifting weights might be counterproductive to internal goals" ... "Internal arts are a little different in that they ask ALL the muscles of the body to work together"

So how on earth can having your muscles work better be counterproductive to getting your muscles to work better?

Certain weight-lifting practices are clearly detrimental to internal development. For internal development, internal development exercises are clearly superior to weight-lifteing exercises. But it does not follow from this that all weight-lifting exercises are detrimental to internal development.

[batesy]

Thanks for all of the feedback folks, I've certainly got plenty to think about. I think that for the forseeable future I'm going to stick to standing postures, forms and as much circle walking as I can manage. I cycle to work every day so I still get a c.v. work-out. Thanks again, and happy training.

[Kumkuat]

Well, weight training has health benefits like it increases bone density and raises your metabolism. It also increases your muscluar strength and endurance. I do it for those reasons and it's extremely fun. Besides, what's wrong with trying to improve one's physcial appearance anyway?

1-Low weight, high rep. This is mainly for
toning and burning fat.

No, this is just endurance work. It won't burn fat. You can't tone with just weights alone. It takes lowering your body fat and maintaining or increasing your muscle size to be "toned." The low weight, high rep is for toning has been proven a myth now along with spot reducing.

2-Middle weight, middle rep. This is for building muscle mass.

Maybe. But to get muscle hyperthropy is to increase volume and eat a lot. Especially protein entriched foods.


3-High weight, low rep. This is for building strength.

True, but it can also build muscle if volume is increased.

Also, deadlifts, snatches, and cleans just about work every muscle in your body. Of course, there is a lot of tension in the msucles which isn't a good thing for your internal development. Weight training also makes you keep your lumber arch, while in internal arts you want to straighten that out (not forcefully, just relax that part to straighten it).

I like internal arts and weight training, but I have to give up weight training if i want to improve my internal strength more. But it's so hard to do that, and besides, I don't have a good teacher around to motivate me to do that yet.

[Fu-Pow]

You act as though you are disagreeing with me, but in fact you just reiterated what I just said.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[Braden]

I guess except for the direct quotes of yours that I directly disagreed with, yeah.

[prana]

It is neccessary during proper internal energy training to abstain from lifting heavy weights, if a beginner.

[IronFist]

Fu-pow said
But let me ask you a question. If you have internal strength then why would you want to develop external strength? They both achieve the same thing (ie strength), they are just mechanically different.

Show me one internal master who can bench 400lbs or who can squat 500lbs?

Iron

[Chris McKinley]

Wow. I find it more than a little disappointing to read the variety of ignorant nonsense being given so dogmatically on this thread. Subjective opinions are fine, but some points of view are being offered as if they represented legitimate scientific knowledge of muscle physiology when they clearly do not.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Chris can you elaborate a little more on your response please???

Basically for internal arts I think it is safe to say that excessive weight training WILL impair your internal development. It's as simple as that. One does not need weight training to condition the muscularture of the body, one can achieve this from standing postures and low stance form too. Its relative really, if you want to train for internal development one must apply internal methodology, and vice versa for external training and development. This is a difference betwen the wo and both do not necessarily converge always.

[beaudacious]

from experience pushups and weight training make the 8 mother palms more difficult to hold(not able to train as long) and you will lose a considerable amount of flexibilty in the shoulders making any striking or piercing method less fluid and slower at thet. Weights train primary muscle groups and holding postures train secondary muscle groups. ;)

[Fu-Pow]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Show me one internal master who can bench 400lbs or who can squat 500lbs? [/quote]

Can't, but there are stories about internal masters demonstrating incredible feats of strength. Two examples off the top of my head are Feng Zhiquiang catching a 1200lb piece of machinery at work. He wasn't sure how he managed to catch it. Later he was scolded by his boss for taking such a risk.

Chen Fake, Master Feng's teacher, reportedly broke a 3 inch floor tile with his heel while demonstrating at a Beijing university.

There are probably tons of other stories, but these are just a couple.

But anyways I think you missed my point.

Internal strength and external strength use two different sets of muscles and mechanics to achieve strength. It doesn't mean they are the same thing.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[Fu-Pow]

Well, actually you never quoted me. But I will quote you.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Internal arts do NOT ask all of the muscles of the body to work together. This is just the party line. It's very clear that many muscles you specifically want to cut out of the equation in the internal arts (biceps, trapz), whereas others are extremely important (triceps, lats, intercostals).

[/quote]

One part moves all parts move.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>So how on earth can having your muscles work better be counterproductive to getting your muscles to work better?
[/quote]

What do you mean by better? By making them stronger? How, by isolating the muscle and working it individually? By working larger groups of muscles? How do you make a muscle work BETTER?
Or is it the collective effort of all muscles to a unified whole? This seems to be the goal of internal arts, at least Taiji.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Certain weight-lifting practices are clearly detrimental to internal development. For internal development, internal development exercises are clearly superior to weight-lifteing exercises. But it does not follow from this that all weight-lifting exercises are detrimental to internal development.

[/quote]

What are certain weight lifting excercises. It is obvious you are talking out of your a$$. Using the word "certain" is a half-assed way of answering. It gets you off the hook later if someone proves you wrong.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[Fu-Pow]

Where did I ever mention spot reducing? If someone is fat you obviously can't see definition it doesn't mean that they are gaining tone.

High weight, low rep= strength training
Middle weight, low rep, explosive rep= strength training

Middle weight, middle reps is still the best for gaining mass. Ask a body builder.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[Kumkuat]

i just used spot reduction as an example.

[Braden]

"Well, actually you never quoted me."

Um, did you read my post? Very clearly I did.

"One part moves all parts move."

Is not the same as using all your muscles equally or in some extrinsically valid definition of the term 'in a balanced manner.'

"How do you make a muscle work BETTER?"

Contraction speed, recruitment of fibers, metabolism, innervation - there are some very concrete definitions to the 'betterness' of a muscle. As to HOW to 'exercise' this functions - this is a very broad field of inquiry whose practical side you could call 'weight-bearing exercises.'

"Or is it the collective effort of all muscles to a unified whole? This seems to be the goal of internal arts, at least Taiji."

No it isn't, as I'll say again. For example, the trapezius muscle, which is rightly used in many other kinds of movement, is not used in internal style movement.

"It is obvious you are talking out of your a$$. Using the word "certain" is a half-assed way of answering."

No, it's obvious that I know what I'm talking about because I refuse to make stupid generalizations. 'Weight-lifting practices' encompasses as wide a variety of practices as the term 'martial art practices.' You simply cannot generalize to 'weight-lifting practices'. Some make you stiffer, some make you looser. Some make you less flexible, some make you more flexible.

"What are certain weight lifting excercises."

For example, trap-lifts or 'shrugs.'

[Fu-Pow]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Is not the same as using all your muscles equally or in some extrinsically valid definition of the term 'in a balanced manner [/quote]

Where did I say that? If I did it was in regards to external arts, not internal arts. Large groups of muscles working in concert, strengthening of these muscle groups. This is more goal of the external.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Contraction speed, recruitment of fibers, metabolism, innervation - there are some very concrete definitions to the 'betterness' of a muscle. As to HOW to 'exercise' this functions - this is a very broad field of inquiry whose practical side you could call 'weight-bearing exercises.'

[/quote]

All true, but this is not really the goal of internal arts. Internal arts goal is peng. Which is the unification of movement to create a path to the ground. At least thats a big part of it.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> No it isn't, as I'll say again. For example, the trapezius muscle, which is rightly used in many other kinds of movement, is not used in internal style movement.

[/quote]


Who's making stupid generalizations now?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You simply cannot generalize to 'weight-lifting practices'. Some make you stiffer, some make you looser. Some make you less flexible, some make you more flexible.
[/quote]

I never said anything about flexibility. If you read back you started that discussion. I never said weight lifting makes you more inflexible. Furthermore, flexibility is not as central to internal arts as it is to external arts. So even if weight lifting did make you inflexible, that wouldn't be the factor that was holding back internal development.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>'Weight-lifting practices' encompasses as wide a variety of practices as the term 'martial art practices.' [/quote]

This statement makes it obvious that you are a total moron. While weight lifting practices they seek one of several goals, strengtening, tone or gain in mass. And while weight lifting excercises may differ they all work on the same skeletal muscle tissue, which varies very little from person to person. So in essence there are very concrete ways to build muscle, or tone it or strengthen it. And there are right and wrong ways to do it.

Martial arts practices on the other hand, are highly subjective practices, that can vary from style to style from their vary foundations. These styles developed based on attitude, body type, height, reaction times etc.


I'm sticking to what I originally said:


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> but my gut feeling is that weight training basically has nothing to do with internal arts. It can be counterproductive if you mistake muscular strength for internal strength. But let me ask you a question. If you have internal strength then why would you want to develop external strength? They both achieve the same thing (ie strength), they are just mechanically different. Are you putting your eggs in both baskets? I train both internal and external but the external is mainly for cardiovascular and muscle tone plus it is easier to apply. If you want to train weights to look good, well you might as well quit the MA's because just because you are good fighter doensn't mean your going to be the men's fitness poster boy. In fact I'm a bit skeptical of people in MA's that are superbuff....Van Damage anybody [/quote]

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[Braden]

"Where did I say that?"

-"Or is it the collective effort of all muscles to a unified whole? This seems to be the goal of internal arts, at least Taiji."

I paraphrased in anticipation of potential arguments. The paraphrasing wasn't necessary without those arguments.

"All true, but this is not really the goal of internal arts."

We agree. I never said it was.

"Who's making stupid generalizations now?"

You still.

"I never said anything about flexibility."

You never said anything specific at all, so it's hard to reply to specifically; so that was just one example. You can insert just about any other property in place of 'flexibility.'

"This statement makes it obvious that you are a total moron."

Thanks for the personal attack. Always enriches the conversation so much.

"While weight lifting practices they seek one of several goals, strengtening, tone or gain in mass."

Or gain in endurance. Or gain in flexibility. Or gain in resilience. Or loss of fat. Or change of metabolism. Or increase in resistance to shearing/stretching/other pressures. Or changes in innervation. Or changes in hormonal balance. Or... well, I could go on, shall I? Moreover, the ways in which to approach these multitude of goals is what is truly diverse.

"And there are right and wrong ways to do it...Martial arts practices on the other hand, are highly subjective practices."

I wonder if you ever considered the possibility that _your_ perception of depth is directly proportional to _your_ depth of exposure.

What you originally said is just as reidiculous as what you later said.

"They both achieve the same thing (ie strength)."

Amazing that you can define 'strength' as a single absolute. But then again, you argument falls or stands on your belief in old stories of qigong masters lifting several tonnes effortlessly.

"If you want to train weights to look good, well you might as well quit the MA's because just because you are good fighter doensn't mean your going to be the men's fitness poster boy."

That's like saying... if you want to play guitar, you might as well quit MA's, or if you want to study biochemistry, you might as well quit MA's. In other words, it's completely ridiculous.

[Sam Wiley]

My knowledge of the pro's and con's of weight lifting while training martial arts is limited, but I have experimented a little with a couple different types and would like to express my opinions here.

My own teacher once scolded me saying that I should not do forms with weights on my arms and legs because this works the wrong muscle groups for those movements and several other reasons. After a brief period of disagreement, I came to believe this myself. Put a weight on your wrist, extend your arm in front of you and tell me which muscles it works. It does not work the striking muscles enough to bother, although the muscles used in holding your arm up can be worked well. I did not examine every movement, so there may be a few where this is not the case, but generally, the muscles are not being worked enough this way or other muscles entirely are being worked.

I was told that if I wanted to lift weights, I should do exercises that emulated striking to work my striking muscles, like the bench press. Well, I first tried pushups, but got no results. So I bought a home gym. I noticed a marked increase in strength, but a loss in mobility, flexibility, and a major decrease in my power for fa-jing. Certain postures became almost impossible for me to hold. For instance, holding the eighth posture in the Bagua qigong became a superhuman feat for me, as I could not hollow my chest enough to put the backs of my arms together. And the walking posture for the eighth palm change became excruciating.

This was simply unacceptable. I understand that some things will be difficult, but things that previously were okay becoming impossible? Unacceptable. The home gym got sold.

So I experimented with "natural" weight lifting. and other exercises for muscle development. Chopping wood, carrying things, that sort of stuff. I found an acceptable middle ground. My physical strength improved, and I did not lose any internal power.

I would suggest that anyone interested at least experiment with this. I believe that for internal power to manifest, the muscles have to be healthy and strong, but there is a way to do it without sacrificing the internal.

A friend of mine who does Uechi Ryu Karate showed me an exercise a few years ago that he claimed seriously improved power. He carried a heavy cement block in each hand. I do almost this same thing for a few minutes a day if I get a chance, carrying 50 lb. buckets of chlorine or bromine around for a few minutes. Really works your back muscles, the ones that power strikes.

*********

[Fu-Pow]

Let's not beat around the bush here. You are just as insulting, you just don't come out and say it. Obviously, I wouldn't result to name calling unless I felt someone was doing the same to me.

Its called passive-agressive behavior. You are agressive, you attack my arguments in a very insulting "I'm-way-better-than-you-way".

Then when pressed for further information you imply that it is beyond my comprehension.

Your whole attitude stinks. Your obviously not here to learn anything or even to teach anything. You are simply here to prove to everybody how right or smart you are.

However, when pressed for specifics you simply say oh its something I can't show you over the internet.

I've tried to have productive dialectics with you but ultimately you come off as mister snob-fobbish.

Its much easier to sit and pick apart and criticize what people say than to contribute anything of your own experience or knowledge.

Get a life.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[Fu-Pow]

Thanks for sharing your experiences. Although I might not always agree with you, you come across as a real guy.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[Kempo Guy]

Although I personally do mostly calisthenics, I think that the focus of any type of strength training (for martial arts) is to gain "functional strength". I suppose this is what Sam Wiley was alluding to?

Also, I do feel that strength training is a part of Internal Martial Arts. Perhaps not in the same manner as weight lifting, but I think there is something called Nei-Gung?

Just some thoughts from the cheap seats...

KG

[Braden]

Fu-Pow:

I'm truly sorry you got that impression. I'm afraid that responding literally to that post and explaining my writing/argumenting style, as well as backing it up with examples, will only reinforce your impression of me. I also feel that simply assuring you are wrong about me will also be fruitless. So I will say simply that I am sorry you feel that way, and that I wish you the best.

[This message was edited by Braden on 11-05-01 at 05:43 PM.]

[bamboo_ leaf]

Couple of points from my experience. The training in internal arts is extremely hard if the requirements are really met. I haven’t met anyone yet who is highly skilled that advocates using wts.


Look at some of the things that the Chen and other stylist do that gives them the legendary power of TC. Wt training while good for many other things but it will not help you here.


The TC idea of power has many components that I think are not really understood by many people. This is why I think many people waste time training in other ways to try and capture the power they seek. If this is what there after.

One aspect might be the idea of uprooting or pushing an opponent.
you must have develped a couple of differnt abilities to really do this but I will only address the ability of change.

The change that I talk of is the ability to drop all power in your hand or arm. As the opponent falls forward the tendency is for the person to move back to stop the fall. his/her root is broken and is now floating.

This is the time that you follow the opponents power and add your power. This is what many see in the magazines articles where the person looks like their flying back. This kind of push or uproot feels like no force is being used because most of it you supplied.

It is not the ability to shove some one so hard that they fly off their feet and are thrown back. This would be the use of Li (strength) while some tech is involved it is not the same as chin. (Internal force).

IMHO

Unless you had a good understanding of this concept I would think that it would be very difficult to train moving things one way and then told that you have to do it another way. You might know what you want to do, but your body would tend to follow the other idea.

bamboo leaf

[Fu-Pow]

Great response!!!! I think that there are very few people that really understand Internal Arts as well. Unfortunately, I'm not one of them. Although I'm getting at the root of it, piece by piece. Definitely not simple though. And I think your right, you can fall into traps along the way, especially if you start throwing in your own training methods (ie lifting weights). Only a really good teacher can point you in the right direction when you get stuck. And if there's one thing that I've learned in my own research its that most of the literature out there on internal arts is either totally cryptic (ie the Taiji classics) or just plain wrong (ie Mantak Chia).

And as to the internal arts having great strength I think you are right about the "additive power." That is one way to disable your opponent. But also it is my understanding that high level internal stylists have really nasty penetrating strikes that are also a result of internal training. Any thoughts on this?

Granted you won't see any Taiji masters entering power lifting contests anytime soon.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[bamboo_ leaf]

“But also it is my understanding that high level internal stylists have really nasty penetrating strikes that are also a result of internal training. Any thoughts on this?”


There are many here that could probably explain it better or deeper.

These are my thoughts at this time.

The process is the same only difference is that the opponents whole body is not able to change so instated of pushing itself away the body actually allows the force to come inside.

In TC we talk of the cotton fist and palm. I think the fist or hand or any part of the body of the TC player contains the idea of very small circles. Soft and hard are the product of the YI (mind), I can place my fist against the opponent and feel his/her hardness. Where there is no hardness its empty I follow very quickly. So in this case only the local part of the opponents body relaxes, like finding a small hole and sending a lot of energy through it. Again it’s not the case of punching the hard part or attempting to move the hard part. This is why it’s said that the power of TC will not work on men made of stone, wood, or metal.

The word penetrating means that the energy has gotten past the hard outer layer of muscle instead of compressing it. The opponent’s body has soft(empty) and hard (full) parts that most people are unaware of. In our practice of TC we seek to unify the body in a natural way. The absorption of energy is done with the whole body, much later this can be done using only the mind.

This accounts for the stories that are told of things bouncing off of TC masters and also people hurting them selves hitting TC exponents. Again not easy to do.

bamboo leaf

[grounded]

but do iron weights have qi?
if you are planning on fighting with inanimate objects then go ahead and get buff{ :D

sorry, I'm being silly, but it's true!

One of my favorite things about internal training is that you get scrawny and exceedingly soft. It always throws off my weight lifting friends when we spar. (refer back to double-weightedness)

But seriously,
Personally, I believe that anything in moderation is good for your training. For instance, I have never heard of an internal master advocating running, but who can argue that if done properly, cv excercise can make you a better fighter?

(especially 5 or 6 minutes into a brawl............)a

[HuangKaiVun]

Many "internal" kung fu guys who can hit much harder than their bodies indicate actually have muscles in all the right places.

When I first met my sifu, he looked like a typical short Chinese guy who didn't look "athletic" in the least bit. But he could HIT!!!!!

Now that I'm well into training with him, I've started to notice his massive forearms, his powerful thighs, his powerful back, his strong hips, his beefy calves, everything. I'm also starting to notice it in MYSELF as I progress in our style.

Eventually, I'll be put on weight training designed specifically to strengthen me in a way that I can hit harder.

[Kumkuat]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Now that I'm well into training with him, I've started to notice his massive forearms, his powerful thighs, his powerful back, his strong hips, his beefy calves, everything. [/quote]

So, did you ask him out?

[Sam Wiley]

LOL!

*********

[grounded]

you do develop some wierd muscle groups
especially in your legs
(the mystery horse stance muscle)

but believe you me you're not gonna get cut and polished from just taiji
I think if you're into the greek god look and want to look like a movie star, then weights are for you, but many of the taiji and kung fu people I have met don't develop and don't need that type of muscular strength to drop you with a single palm.

on a final note
I have found that excessive abdominal weight training can cause tension in that area, even stagnating chi. But like everything else, moderation.......$

[HuangKaiVun]

More like he asked ME out - into the backyard to TRAIN.

[Repulsive Monkey]

too true hardened abs can certainly make one more prone to Qi Stagnation. Tensing of the muscles genarlly will have a backwards effect upon releasing Bin Qi (Sick energy/pathogens) and re-motivating Stagnant Qi back to its proper circulation. By squeezing the muscles one pinches the meridians and halts the flow of Qi or at least impedes its natural diection.

[Fu-Pow]

Sounds kinky!!!!

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[HuangKaiVun]

3 hours of practicnig solo sets in the rain: kinky indeed.

[wujidude]

I was just curious what martial style(s) you practice that motivate you to spend three hours training in the rain. Must be good stuff.

[Nexus]

When I do rockclimbing, usually for 2-3 hours, I usually do 2 hours of taiji when I get home after that to loosen up the muscles and relax the body as it is often tense, especially the back muscles. Rock climbing seems to be great for giving the body some nice defintion without bulking you up, and it doesn't seem to be difficult for me to generate internal power.

I feel that if you really enjoy doing something like rock climbing or even weight lifting, if you do it with moderation then it should be ok with your internal training. Although I can't say that weight training is productive to your internal practice.

- Nexus

[Kevin Wallbridge]

This is a good topic.

bamboo leaf, super.

My thoughts are that some kind of resistance training is useful for developing more power. I just don't think that metal plates provide very good resistance, they are too inert.

I train in the Chen Fake lineage of Chen style and we have some very specific power training drills. Taiji ruler is an important one, using a whole body wringing motion.

There is another using a sand-filled pipe 3.5 feet long (affectionately referred to as the "bazooka"). Several spiral movements are done holding it.

There are some aspects of the push-hands that are done with resistance specifically for more strength (as well as the more familiar sensitivity drills and patterns).

The most important power training to me is the long pole. A 10 foot piece of waxwood that is used for spear drills. Its heavy but springy. It provides plenty of resistance but is a live-weight in the hands

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai