"Closed door" vs secular learning what's the difference?

[hokfumantis]

It is often said that "so and so", is a closed door disciple of "such and such". It suggest that there is a skill or perhaps secret forms of Mantis that is not reveal to the masses. Would that mean that those who do not become a "closed door" student are only limited to the fundamantals and will never understand the style's true potential? Your thoughts on this please?

[lunghushan]

It is often said that "so and so", is a closed door disciple of "such and such". It suggest that there is a skill or perhaps secret forms of Mantis that is not reveal to the masses. Would that mean that those who do not become a "closed door" student are only limited to the fundamantals and will never understand the style's true potential? Your thoughts on this please?

Yep, it what it means is that nobody remembers what the forms applications are anymore.

So they use the 'closed door' excuse ... nobody who isn't 'closed door' tells what the forms mean. Nobody who isn't 'closed door' knows what they are for.

So you spend years ... and years ... waiting to become 'closed door'.

Then when you're too old to fight anymore (like 45+) you get made 'closed door', and find out some 'secret' applications.

Which are probably taught openly in some other art somewhere else. So you are now feeling really stupid because you wasted all that time, but you don't want to tell anybody because they will know you are stupid.

So you make somebody else go through all of that again ... and it repeats ...

(BTW a lot of time when MA teachers get defensive about apps to forms it's because they don't really know ... you are probably wasting your time if the teacher doesn't teach the apps and uses the 'closed door' excuse).

[EarthDragon]

Back in the old days certain students who excelled or held special talents were favored by teachers and taught extra things simply out of favorism and or ability.
Sometimes the student with the best ability would be considered a diciple and was choosen to take over the family art/style. This was considered closed door meaning that he was taught things that fellow brothers were not. or that what he was taught was only taught to him and never shown to other students that were not as faithful or trusted with these family secrets

In modern times this was taken out of context, and used against the student for profit, lack of knowledge and or just leading the student on ujnder promises and false pretences .
In my opinon there is still and will always be favortism amongst teachers and certain students but no such thing as a closed door diciple.

in eight step on our logo it say secrets and techniques and for many years we saught out to learn these secrets from shrfu... then after many years you figure them out for yourself.... every jointlock has a counter...... all techniques can be interchanged, no techniques is neither offensive nor defensive etc etc.

[Three Harmonies]

"Closed door" is another word for disciple. Discipleship has different levels on meaning depending on the teacher. Overall the only difference is the level of commitment and responsibility to said teacher. I am a disciple of my teacher, but he does not teach me "different" techniques or counters. He just expects more out of me. I am family now so I have certain responsibilites.
If you are interested I wrote an extensive article about discipleship ceremonies in the Chinese Martial Arts. Check out my articles page at www.threeharmonies.com

Cheers
Jake :)

[EarthDragon]

great article Jake!
I too am a lineage holder in our 8 step family and certain ceremonies as well as name sake given and branding are done. i think however that people use this term to openly and to mean way too many things. i even heard a strudent of serveral arts say he was a closed door student from 3 different teachers which is of course impossible.

So I think that hokfu was trying to weed out the truth of this term. but i could be total worng....And it is funny how when you become a lineage holder and the keeper of the all mighty secrets, the only secret I was told is pratice the basics more, this will tkae me to where i want to go...

[kwaichang]

45+ cant fight ??? How dumb is that???? KC

[seung ga faat]

Im turning 48 this year. Time to hire some additional bodyguards:) .

[Three Harmonies]

Thanks!
It is not impossible to be a disciple of a couple different teachers. Inprobable, sure, but not impossible. Both of my teachers encourage me to train with different people.

Cheers
Jake:)

[bungbukuen]

Closed Door disciple nowadays doesnt mean anything. A lot of times it is someone who pays a lot of money to study a lot forms in a short amount of time. After a few months of training they graduate, get their masters certificate and open a commercial school. It use to be the rage in HK and of course has spread to North America and Europe. It’s like the fast food drive through of kung fu. Visit the school, check out the forms list and price list, choose the ones you want, pay your money, and the teacher serves you up.

In a traditional school it is simple. You train hard, train long, remain focussed and dont ask stupid questions. If you talk about wanting to study forms or becoming a closed door disciple in a traditional school the teacher will laugh in your face, kick your @ss, and then for the next week you will be the running joke amoungst your kungfu bretheren. Thats if you are lucky. If you are unlucky the teacher will never teach you again.

BBK

[Three Harmonies]

:rolleyes:

[Shaolin Wookie]

45+ cant fight ??? How dumb is that???? KC

I guess you saw that a 70 year old Army vet killed a mugger in Costa Rica with a chokehold, didn't you?;) :D

[zhangxihuan]

closed door is bunch of crap.. my first teacher tried to pull it on us. no offense but its just used as a trick to get you to pay money... my first "sifu" (if you could call him that) would tell us how he knew "so much" and how great "he was" and how he wouldnt teach you 'such and such' for 20 years or more..

please...

If I pay I dont want to be teased.

I think teachers that have knowledge as such shouldn't manipulate their students... it really ticks them off.

[kwaichang]

I had a patient not so long ago that knocked a man down at a restaurant he was 90 when he did it KC

[mawali]

CONCERNING CLOSED DOOR OR OPEN MIND
There is no difference. In America, you are the best because you respect people and they respect you and your actions dictate that you deserve what you have worked to achieve. Others places, you are appointed!

If you work smart, think fast, and train hard, you are halfway there!
Writing a book and making a movie is an added attraction! ha!
yeh, like the 70 yr old ex military guy in Costa Rica who had a open mind but a closed fist.

[Sifu Darkfist]

Gentlemen And Ladies

Consider the historic construction of the Chinese Household, The fort like qualities with its chambers and the strict confucian principles for protocol. The House complex had four walls and at least 3 Gates With a seperate house for each of the grown siblings and the largest for the parents. The Females were confined to the rear areas away from the public and used the rear entrance to the compound.

The front gate was for the Father and eldest son Along Side was a smaller gate for all other siblings. There might also be a servant gate, however sometimes they shared the gate with other siblings.

The only ones allowed in the back were the Ladies the Father and a husband of the younger females.

The only ones allowed in the inner home area were family.
Closed door is not a mysterious outlandish phenom it is the act of gaining a family.

Becoming a member that is allowed in the inner chamber of the home trusted to respect the family and the confucian hierarchy within.

Truly age is the most important factor in the family along with maleness, following we have a breakdown of male after male until the youngest before the females (with the exception of mom.

Closed door is literally from the acceptance into the home as a family member thus lineage holder. Lineage is not based on who knows the most forms it is based on age respect benevolence love and loyality. Anyone that plays political harm to the family really is never part of it. It is completely anti Confucian to act in such a dishonorable way.

[B.Tunks]

closed/close door and inner or enter the door are not the same thing.

[Three Harmonies]

Jimmy
95% of Chinese people could barely afford a "house" the size of my living room to live in, let alone several entrances, stone walls guarding them etc.
I see the point you are trying to make, but I think some of your history is confused.

Cheers
Jake

[Wong Ying Home]

I am allready closed door inner student with my sifu and have been for a number of years, my sifu has clearly stated that everything is taught openly as time passes. For My sifu the disciples are announced when my sifu is 60 years old and closes/washes her hands from teaching anyone further. It is at this time that she announces the inheritors of the system.

This is what it means in our family

[Sifu Darkfist]

Jimmy
95% of Chinese people could barely afford a "house" the size of my living room to live in, let alone several entrances, stone walls guarding them etc.
I see the point you are trying to make, but I think some of your history is confused.

Cheers
Jake

Actually Many of the Masters had compounds.

My history comes from a professor of history from the mainland that specializes in 1. imperial social order and Confucianism 2. was ex curator to the emperors bed chambers at the forbidden city. Although it is easy enough to follow my historical layout through History monologues

Just because something changes in meaning to each group does not negate the original context.

Closed door is the translation in english. Inside the door is also accepted. Confucian law calls upon the privacy of the family in several areas. This is later construed as general practice for most areas of interest.

Even the discipline of common crimes was left up to the Father or the eldest male member grandfather etc. inside closed doors.

It is based on trust and loyalty and the family before the individual, something absent in many American mindsets (not all of course).

I am sure of my sources in these respects. Refer to Shen fu six records of a floating life.

Even modest households held the same hierarchical construct and mimicked to as much as possible the imperial and Confucian model.
with the exception of the truly destitute.

Another good source is Gernet's "daily life in China on the eve of the Mongolian invasion. There are scores of others that underscore these principles. of behind "closed doors" and the practice of Confucian principles of ritual.

I can say unequivocally that my induction ceremony was exactly as historically spelled out in Confucian theory. All the way to the Kow Tow ritual and the ancestors etc.
These truisms are as strong as the feeling of Mandate From Heaven and exist in all traditional minded households (what are left after ccp).

Thanks for the lively debate all

[B.Tunks]

closed door (guanmen) means final, last. inner or enter gate/door (rumen) is what most of you are talking about and does not mean final. there can be many rumen tudimen there is generally one guanmen tudi. it does not mean they are superior, they are just last- before teacher 'closes hands' (or dies) and therefore usually end up with most of the teachers material possessions, quan pu etc and often but not always the responsibilities of continuation.

[EarthDragon]

sifudark fist, you stated
Actually Many of the Masters had compounds.


From what my teacher has told us many of the old masters form the mainland were farmers/grocers and indeed very poor. many of them were illiterate and used movements to show what they could not write down. This is very true with our system. also in our history there were no more than 2 rooms to any house or dwelling in shan dong.

[zhangxihuan]

actually as a Chinese scholar I can confirm that Darkfist's portrayal of ancient Chinese life is accurate...

true not everyone was that "wealthy" but the Confucianism remained.

[Three Harmonies]

Tunks hits the nail on the head.

I understand the "scholars" aproach here guys, (I studied it all in school too). But you ask any everyday Chinese person and they will look at you crossed eyed. The only people that "study" these things are scholars. Everyday people have no clue.
And 95% of the Chinese did not have a "compound." They were happy to have a room to live in!
Jake