One mans BS lineage!!

[PrivateWarrior]

This is some fairytale!! This guy would have had to be 90 to do everything he says he did. And there is no real lineage. Who is this guy? Is he a master of 20 styles? How come I have never heard of him? Who made him a Sifu? Is he a wing chun sifu? Where is that lineage? And where is the lineage of the guy he discipled under? Sounds like a made up Hung-Gar system!!

The following is what I read on his web-site:

One Man's Journey

By Sifu Michael Manganiello
9-17-2006

http://www.lingnamsiulum.com/lineage.htm

[TenTigers]

if you read the article again, you will see that Sifu Manganiello never claims anything other than his expertise in Hung-Ga under (James)Tsang Wai-Ming, and Wing Chun, under (Robert) Chu Sau-Lei. (Although he was exposed to many other arts, and has trained several years in different systems-since age nine-about forty years,his primary focus,has been Hung-Ga and Wing Chun.) Both these Sifus are well-known within Mo-Lum, especially in NYC's Chinatown. Robert Chu is recognized by outsiders due to his articles, books, and website. Tsang Wai-Ming has taken, to my knowledge, only two disciples. He is a very private person, and stays way outside of Mo-Lum politics. His lineage is intact, but disclosed to few. Besides, how far does lineage get you? You could be the worst student under the best teacher. It's all in the hand.
Sifu Manganiello is relatively unheard of outside of NY Chinatown Mo-Lum because he does not teach a large, commercial school, but a smaller,serious traditional Mo-Gwoon. That is his choice. I will tell you this, when I trained with him, I was just one of manylocal instructors and school owners who trained there as well. That class was a "who's who" of Martial Artists on Long Island. He was a well-kept secret, as many of these 'Teachers"did not want it to get out that they were training under him. There were Black Belts from American Combat Karate, Shima, Kobe,Bushinkan,Kenpo,Pekita Tersia,Northern Shaolin,and others.
Better to do a little more research and digging before go you play Bullshido.

[ngokfei]

Sifu Manganiello's biography was a pleasure to read.

From it he honestly states the diverse number of sifu's he has had over the years, also not forgetting to include the fact that not everything was learned from the Sifu of the school but from the instructors and seniors.

Too often I've heard and read individuals biographies that only proclaim their lineage to "leaders" of a style when in fact they rarely were taught by that individual

[lkfmdc]

Here's a simple question, WHO ARE YOU?

I"ve been in the MO LUM a LONG TIME and I know Sifu Manganiello. I know he has been inside for a LONG TIME and has studied with a lot of top teachers. But WHO ARE YOU and what makes you think you can call BS when obviously you do not know what the deal is?

[Wong Ying Home]

I gotta agree with NgokFei, here, a very nice well laid out web site, good content, and the student demonstrations speak for themselves, and excellent reflection of the SiFu's skill

[PrivateWarrior]

Let's pick some pieces out of his "Lineage" story. First off, aren't lineage's done like he has Sifu Yee's, in a family tree type format?

He learned William Cheungs whole system through seminars?

He opened his school 3 years after he started studying with Sifu Yee, but said he had his whole system. He learned the whole Hung Gar system in 3 years? And wasn't a disciple of Sifu Yee?!!!!

If according to him, you only learn the "secrets" of the system by becoming a disciple, then who taught him the secrets of Yee's system? Who taught him the secrets of Cheungs system. Who taught him the secrets of Robert Chu's system?

So, I'm not going to rethink my thought. It's my thought, and I am just trying to find out who this guy is and why he is throwing Master Mark's name in his lineage story!! Please explain that one!! Does he have Master Mark's secrets too?

I respect the fact that some of you may know him, but you had to know that him listing Chen Tai San, Master Mark, Bill Cheung, William Cheung, Robert Chu, etc.... in his lineage was going to stir up a controversy!!

[Golden Arms]

Who are you to say that. Internet keyboard warriors crack me up. Go to his school, cross hands with him IF YOU HAVE THE BALLS, and then come back if you are still alive and let us know how crappy his lineage is. Seriously man, mudslinging has no place in martial arts unless you have verified the lack of skills. Skills are all that matters in the long run, it IS fighting after all, not ballet class.

[TenTigers]

reading is fundamental. He states that the teachers he trained with were under the tuteledge of Mark Foon, he was very specific. Then he said he spent nearly a decade under Yee Chi-Wai,then he states that he learned Cheung's system through the wooden man, yet lays no claim to lineage.If this is the way Cheung taught and disseminated his Wing Chun, then the onus is on Cheung.

[SavvySavage]

Privatewarrior,

Sifu Mike has the softest "hands" I've ever felt. When you touch hands with the man he actually traps your arms and doesn't hit with any bullsh!t fluff shots. I haven't met many people that can do that without using too much force, including myself. He's accomplished a lot in the kung fu world and has earned the right to rest from dealing with incidents such as this post.

Master Mark studied with other teachers before meeting Lum Wing Fay. I think I read somewhere that he was a hung gar master or white crane master before abanding all to study southern praying mantis. Is that all bs?


More to come later...maybe.

you're a dik. ha

[iron_silk]

I read it and thought it said he learned from Frank Yee for 10 years? well he did say he started with Yee 1980-81 but then "officially" with James Tsang in 1986 stating at that time he already finished Tang Fung system 2 years prior....making it 3-4 to finish Hung Gar Tung Fung system from Yee but still going to learn the healing arts.

About William Cheung...maybe he learn his method from Victor Parlati his "point man" in NY? & also mention that he doens't claim to Cheung's lineage or method.

[CFT]

PW, you cannot have read the article at all. It seems to be a very detailed and frank account of his training history and motivational factors at the time.

[cjurakpt]

I respect the fact that some of you may know him, but you had to know that him listing Chen Tai San, etc.... in his lineage was going to stir up a controversy!!

hey butt whipe, newsflash: he did study under CTS - so did a lot of people - so what? if the CTS people don't have a problem with him stating that, why do you?

[lkfmdc]

Like I said, I know Sifu Manganiello, and I know he studied with each and everyone of the people he said he did, darn... so much crap on the internet, people just hide behind screen names and talk trash... it's disgusting...

[PrivateWarrior]

[QUOTE=cjurakpt;737616]hey butt whipe, newsflash: he did study under CTS - so did a lot of people - so what? if the CTS people don't have a problem with him stating that, why do you? QUOTE]

First off, he stated that he learned from people that learned from CTS. That isn't a lineage. If I watch a video of Donald Hamby, does that allow me to list him on my lineage page?

I don't know who this guy is, but I care about the purity of Kung Fu. And to me it sounds like a mish-mash of arts all rolled into one. He teaches Bak Mei? My friend taught me a bak mei form once, can I teach it at my school? Where is his Bak Mei lineage? Is he a Bak Mei Sifu too?

Let's see this guy put one of his forms out to the public. I saw his web-site and I don't see him performing anything!! I see some of his students performing!! I want to see a clip of his Bak Mei, I want to see a clip of his White Crane, I want to see a clip of his Southern Mantis, I want to see a clip of his Lam Sai Wing Hung Gar, and the Tang Fung Hung Gar, and the Village Style Hung Gar. I want to see a clip of his 7 Star Praying Mantis.

Then all you experts in all these styles can decide if he is teaching the real deal.

So Sifu Michael Mangiello, let's see your stuff!!! I can find every other master online doing some form, but I haven't seen s**t from him.

I'll lay that challenge out there for him. If his is sooooo good, let's see something!! It shouldn't take long to shut me up, post a video and let everyone else decide. So Siu Lum, tell your boy to post a video of.........let's start with the Gow Bou Toy.

I'll be waiting, and I'll apologize if it turns out to be good.

[djcaldwell]

[QUOTE=cjurakpt;737616]hey butt whipe, newsflash: he did study under CTS - so did a lot of people - so what? if the CTS people don't have a problem with him stating that, why do you? QUOTE]

First off, he stated that he learned from people that learned from CTS. That isn't a lineage. If I watch a video of Donald Hamby, does that allow me to list him on my lineage page?

I don't know who this guy is, but I care about the purity of Kung Fu. And to me it sounds like a mish-mash of arts all rolled into one. He teaches Bak Mei? My friend taught me a bak mei form once, can I teach it at my school? Where is his Bak Mei lineage? Is he a Bak Mei Sifu too?

Let's see this guy put one of his forms out to the public. I saw his web-site and I don't see him performing anything!! I see some of his students performing!! I want to see a clip of his Bak Mei, I want to see a clip of his White Crane, I want to see a clip of his Southern Mantis, I want to see a clip of his Lam Sai Wing Hung Gar, and the Tang Fung Hung Gar, and the Village Style Hung Gar. I want to see a clip of his 7 Star Praying Mantis.

Then all you experts in all these styles can decide if he is teaching the real deal.

So Sifu Michael Mangiello, let's see your stuff!!! I can find every other master online doing some form, but I haven't seen s**t from him.

I'll lay that challenge out there for him. If his is sooooo good, let's see something!! It shouldn't take long to shut me up, post a video and let everyone else decide. So Siu Lum, tell your boy to post a video of.........let's start with the Gow Bou Toy.

I'll be waiting, and I'll apologize if it turns out to be good.

Then the question still remains who are you? You say you own a school and you are sitting here calling out someone from behind an anonymous screen name. That doesn't demonstrate much integrity on your part. I don't know Mangienello personally, but I have heard of him - either way the point is that you're no better than any of the more recent trolls trying to wage a private war.

Fact remains if you want to see what he or anyone else has go to them in person and judge for yourself or at least let them know who you are so that when you call them out in public like this they can reply by coming to you if they so choose. The way you are doing this is cowardly and far from being a "man" let a lone someone who alludes to being a teacher. Grow up.

[Sifu at Large]

I'll lay that challenge out there for him. If his is sooooo good, let's see something!! It shouldn't take long to shut me up, post a video and let everyone else decide. So Siu Lum, tell your boy to post a video of.........let's start with the Gow Bou Toy.

I'll be waiting, and I'll apologize if it turns out to be good.

And you wil post a clip of your good kung fu for comparison?

[TenTigers]

"I want to see a clip of his Bak Mei, I want to see a clip of his White Crane, I want to see a clip of his Southern Mantis, I want to see a clip of his Lam Sai Wing Hung Gar, and the Tang Fung Hung Gar, and the Village Style Hung Gar. I want to see a clip of his 7 Star Praying Mantis."


you want, you want
wow, so you must be really important, huh?

[Wong Ying Home]

As for questionable skill. If the SiFu is reflected by the demonstration of the student that is shown doing Hung Gar in one of the vids...I dont think there can be a question on the SiFu's skill in all honesty.

The person who is claiming bs obviously has now idea what to look for or having seen the student demosntration, they would know the skill the SiFu has.

Simply read the web site agin, and if in doubt go and visit the SiFu in person. You may think you grind the organ that monkeys perfom on...but in this case you are more and more looking like a monkey

I would train under the Ling Name SiFu based on the student demo.

[lkfmdc]

I don't know who this guy is, but I care about the purity of Kung Fu.



Let's start a new poll, who is tired of self appointed guardians of kung fu "purity"?

my vote; yes, I'm tired of them

[Chief Fox]

Isn't Hung Gar a military style that is designed to be learned in a short period of time? Something like 2 or 3 years for the whole system? Mastering, of course, is a different story.

Wing Chun is another very compact system as well.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

PrivateWarrior, you're throwing all of these acusations out there and you admit that you don't even know who the guy is. You've just looked at his website. Then you say that you'll apologize if you are wrong.

Imagine walking up to a doctor or a professor at a University and saying, "I think you're all BS and I'm going to continue to think that way until I see your transcripts and your degrees".

Do you even realize how insulting you're being? You're judging this guy based on his website. He may not have even created the website. He may know nothing about the web. It may have been created by one of his well meaning students. I work in the industry and I can tell you that A LOT of good people who run good companies have terrible web sites.

Why are you being so judgmental?

[TenTigers]

what exactly is purity?
Siu-Lum was a melting pot
Wong Fei-Hung took several things, such as Hop-Ga and Leung Guan's Tiet Sien Kuen and added it to his forms. He even restructured his forms entirely.
Tung Hai-Chuan combined methods to form his Bot Gua
Chang Seng-Feng combined methods to create his Tai Chi
Ku Yu Cheong's Bak Siu-Lum is an amalgamation of many arts as well
Bak Mei is a combined art
Many masters took from various arts, techniques, concepts to form what are their present day systems. What are you looking for? The one true original Martial Art? Fine. Here it is, just for you: Take your fist, hit someone with it. There. Now you have it. Happy?

[CLFNole]

Why do you guys all continue to address this stupid thread.

I mean show me a form on the internet so I can see how good you are?

That alone should end this stupid thing.

[Sang Feng Fan]

reading is fundamental. He states that the teachers he trained with were under the tuteledge of Mark Foon, he was very specific. Then he said he spent nearly a decade under Yee Chi-Wai,then he states that he learned Cheung's system through the wooden man, yet lays no claim to lineage.If this is the way Cheung taught and disseminated his Wing Chun, then the onus is on Cheung.

When Michael was first under Yee Chi Wai his students were tested/certified by Frank Yee himself, before being moved up rank.

[Vajramusti]

So, I'm not going to rethink my thought. It's my thought, and I am just trying to find out who this guy is and why he is throwing Master Mark's name in his lineage story!! Please explain that one!! Does he have Master Mark's secrets too?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is he claiming all these lineages? I dont think so. He has a long essay on what he has been "exposed " to over time. But careful reading shows that he really claims only one or two persons as his sifus in hung gar and wc..And its his hungar that is demoed on his site.
That may be commented on by hung gar people- none of my business.Only one comment I will make- Pete Robinson was indeed a disciple of Gin Foon Mark and has been in TCMA/kung fu longer than practically everyone posting on KFO and knows several different styles learned from top flight sifus in each style. He doesnt get involved in style or inter style squabbles on KFO.Probably isnt on KFO.
But since he(Pete Robinson) was mentioned- to the best of my knowledge he did not teach SPM to his Conn. or NY students or the website sifu in question-
and the listed location of his old school is not quite accurate.But that was along time ago and apparently is not the main part of "lineage" that got this intense thread started.. Just a very limited and measured comment.Not debating anything and promptly exiting.

Cheers, Joy Chaudhuri

[Mulong]

Shedding some light; Shifu Yee, has had students through out the years, who have been able to learn 90% of the system in one year; hence, it is possible. Actually, in the early days, i.e., 80’s he taught in more rapid progression, especially, when you were studying directly under him, because they were no true group class, particularly at Bowery location.

[mok]

Private warrior - you really are a tad slow aren't you?

You realize you got at least a couple direct students of CTS and a couple more Hung Gar SIFUS telling you his stuff his real. I'm a newb in Hung myself, but I've seen the student vids, and I can tell you their stuff is real enough.

In case you haven't realized, usually it's a good bet to judge a sifu by his students, at least the top ones. IMO you need to rethink your POV and meditate on where all that hatin' is coming from, 'cause not only are you barking up the wrong tree, you're not even in the right forest (the mo lum, that is)...

[CFT]

So, I'm not going to rethink my thought. It's my thought, and I am just trying to find out who this guy is and why he is throwing Master Mark's name in his lineage story!! Please explain that one!! Does he have Master Mark's secrets too?

I respect the fact that some of you may know him, but you had to know that him listing Chen Tai San, Master Mark, Bill Cheung, William Cheung, Robert Chu, etc.... in his lineage was going to stir up a controversy!!What do you think, maybe one of Mark sifu's self righteous students/grand-students?

[Vajramusti]

C'mon-play fair- he is not one of Sifu Mark's students or grand students. After a lot of name dropping he narrowed his interest to hung gar and wc.
But if his students learn some decent hung gar from him- I dont see a problem.


joy chaudhuri

[Laukarbo]

clf-nole brought it to the point....theres nothing else to say..
but my prediction is that this thread will last at least 10 pages of; more ppl jumping on the bashing-band wagon
and mostly yes he is.....
no he isnt.....
yes he is....
no he isnt...
bla bla bla.............:D

have a nice life...:p

[CFT]

C'mon-play fair- he is not one of Sifu Mark's students or grand students. After a lot of name dropping he narrowed his interest to hung gar and wc.
But if his students learn some decent hung gar from him- I dont see a problem.Joy, it's true it is just speculation on my part, but isn't it peculiar that of all the sifus in that list only Mark sifu is called "Master"?

From the lineage pageAt age 16, I enrolled in the Chinese Shaolin Boxing Association. There were two locations: the Norwalk, Connecticut YMCA (run by Sifu Peter Robertson), and the Samuel H. Post Legionaire building in the Bronx (run by the late Sifu Bart Crofton). Both teachers were under the tutelage of masters Gin Foon Mark and Bill Chung of the New York Chinese Freemason Association. During that time, the predominant course of study was Hung Gar, Choy Li Fut and Bak Hok Pai. In my last two years before the school disbanded, I was introduced to the rudiments of Kwong Sai Jook Lum (Southern) Praying Mantis. It would whet my appetite for many years to come for this secretive and illusive art form. This school would eventually disband after about five or six years.Although there is a lot of name dropping, he does not explicitly say that he trained under any of these teachers, only that the schools were run by sifus Robertson and Crofton. He could have been taught by senior students for all we know. The names just set out the "lineage". BTW, he writes "Robertson", you wrote "Robinson" - maybe not who you thought or just a typo?

[Vajramusti]

Joy, it's true it is just speculation on my part, but isn't it peculiar that of all the sifus in that list only Mark sifu is called "Master"?

((CFT. The "peculiarity" doesnt make hima student or grandstudent of Mark sifu))

From the lineage page
Quote:
At age 16, I enrolled in the Chinese Shaolin Boxing Association. There were two locations: the Norwalk, Connecticut YMCA (run by Sifu Peter Robertson), and the Samuel H. Post Legionaire building in the Bronx (run by the late Sifu Bart Crofton). Both teachers were under the tutelage of masters Gin Foon Mark and Bill Chung of the New York Chinese Freemason Association. During that time, the predominant course of study was Hung Gar, Choy Li Fut and Bak Hok Pai. In my last two years before the school disbanded, I was introduced to the rudiments of Kwong Sai Jook Lum (Southern) Praying Mantis. It would whet my appetite for many years to come for this secretive and illusive art form. This school would eventually disband after about five or six years.

Although there is a lot of name dropping, he does not explicitly say that he trained under any of these teachers, only that the schools were run by sifus Robertson and Crofton. He could have been taught by senior students for all we know. The names just set out the "lineage". BTW, he writes "Robertson", you wrote "Robinson" - maybe not who you thought or just a typo?

((CFT: "Butch" Crofton was not a student of Mark......but could have "shown" him what he didnt know. The web master probably intended to spell it as Robinson.. but mis-spelled it and got the location wrong.But Robinson even though he was a student of Mark did NOT teach him SPM .
He could not have learned much if any from Chung and Share Lew did not do iron palm-though he had great fingers. Share Lew is a Taoist priest these days.So some of the name dropping reminiscing may be subject to overstatement or exaggerated, or misreported..

But his later hungar learning and his exposure to wing chun is not reminiscing.His hung gar teaching appears to be genuine. So the website is a mixed bag of facts
and reminiscing.
It may all be an accuracy in website construction issue. I dont know the guy. Others have vouched for his current skills. So I have no further comment. I hope that this thread goes away. Regards, Joy))

[TenTigers]

not for nuthin-but Sher K. Lew does do iron palm. I know one of his long time students, and he has spoken of this as well. I didn't see any mention of Lew-Sifu in Sifu Manganiello's bio.

[chop choy]

PW I dont know whats with all the questions.Are you from the lineage police?Maybe it would be good for your school.Having such a pure art can you tell us who you studyed under?And how would they feel about the ?s your asking? SiuLum what did you expect when you dropped all those names/styles?To each is own.Bottom line my last fight we didnt care about lineage[only winning]

[ftgjr]

If these people spent as much time training as they did examining lineage, maybe their martial art would be decent.

I personally don't pay much attention to a persons lineage. Does it really matter all that much? If it does, then contact the person and discuss it with them face to face.

What matters to me is if the person can knock me on my ass, then I want to learn from them. They have knowledge that I want to aquire. Whether I was a student under the master for many years or trained with one of his senior students and gained knowledge shouldn't really matter if what I learned works.

I have mixed it up with many differnent stylists out their. Some of them were the senior most student of a reputable teacher (even a few grandmasters) and others were only students with less than 1 year experience. Sometimes the less experienced person gave me a harder time than the person with years of experience.

[Sang Feng Fan]

As a New Yorker who has trained in Chinatown and who knows the Sifu in question, I find it disgraceful that people would challenge someone with Michael's credentials.

To echo Coach Ross, the man is "Mo Lum" and has been known to be for such along time.

The man is alive and well and his hands are open.

Personally I would not disparage anyone like him (Asian or Occidental) even on the internet.

Come to think of it, I wouldn't mess with his little brother either.

[David Jamieson]

Isn't Hung Gar a military style that is designed to be learned in a short period of time? Something like 2 or 3 years for the whole system? Mastering, of course, is a different story.

Wing Chun is another very compact system as well.

Correct me if I'm wrong.


Hung Kuen is not considered to be a military style per se although it contains within it's many variants, weapons training combined with buddhist martial arts, chi kung and so on, kept under the banner of Hung in many of its iterations.

Wing Chun is compact and was designed to be learned in a relatively short period of time. This would be closer to what was considered useful as military martial training. Like Bootcamp kungfu. :)

They both are born out of rebellion though. :p

[bakxierboxer]

FYI, and by way of an intro....

My name is Pete Robinson.
In chronological order, I am a TCMA student of:
John Leoning
Wong Ark Yuey
William J. Chung
Liang Kam Yuen (a couple sets by referral from Leoning)
Liu Kim Yuen (Share Lew)(equal parts TCMA & not-TCMA)
Mark Gin Foon

I became the first disciple of William J. Chung in a Bai Si ceremony in 1967 conducted by Mark Gin Foon.
At that time I could have become a direct student of
Mark Gin Foon if I "passed the test"...... I flunked.
"Fortunately for me" I didn't flunk so badly that I got "nothing out of it".
Turned out that I was still "entitled" to "see something".
Stupidly, I asked about "internal power"....

Master Chung allowed me to use the name of his association on my school & I incorporated in Ct. in the late 60s as "Chinese Shaolin Kung Fu Association" (Inc) and registered with the State Boxing Commission as well.

I taught Bart (Butch) Crofton. (who had no problem knocking many folks on their ass before he ever met me)
Butch did not "get on well" with everyone.
(can we all say "xenophobia"?)
("a bit of a problem" if you were in TCMA "back then")
Of course, this also held for MDs, DDs, LLDs, PDs, etc.
For whatever reason, he did not choose to use or was not allowed to use the association name I used, thus
"Chinese Shaolin Boxing Association".

Butch did not train with either William J. Chung or
Mark Gin Foon.
He did "fill in" for me in a few classes at Aron Bank's second Times Square School when Master Chung wanted a "demo dummy".
I "dragged" (he was twice my weight) Butch along to watch one of my private lessons with Master Mark...
Mark Foon pretty much refused to do anything at all in front of Butch.... until I mentioned Pak Hok's
"Needle in the Cotton" and agreed strongly, presenting it to me in a manner (snickering) that let me know he was
"flipping me off". (my fault he even knew that use for that particular finger)

I did not learn SPM from Mark Gin Foon or anyone else.
Not so surprisingly, I did not teach and never did teach SPM, and make no claim whatsoever to that style/lineage.

As for Share Lew and Iron Hand, he is not listed in Sifu Manganiello's bio, but is mentioned on the "Philosophy" page.
Share Lew never mentioned or demoed Iron Palm when I was in his presence.
*I* once brought it up and he seemed to think that there were more important topics.
"For some reason" he then related (and re-enacted) an "incident" from a time when he'd been helping a friend at a restaurant.
Oh, yeah.... that's usually how I learned what I learned from him, and that particular demonstration
"got my mind off" Iron Palm for a rather long time.

As for Sifu Manganiello, I don't believe I ever met him.
Butch brought two of his senior (older) students to some of my classes, but I remember no teenagers being carted back and forth across state lines.
I have no problem with the Hung Kuen set demoed on his site, although the student seems to be going too fast.... perhaps due to "nerves"?
I'm not at all familiar with that or any other WC.

Pete

[elemental]

None of us have the time left in our lives to waste on such an endeavour for it will never bear fruit. Those with questions or bad blood- make the inquisitions face-to-face and be prepared to stand up for what you believe or shut the f--k up. Then get on with life for we are not promised tomorrow. All these posts are fruitless and always will be.

I personally trained under Sifu Manganiello and learned a great deal from him. Anything I had to say was said man-to-man and the experiences taught me a great deal. Who cares what lineage a man has if he can kill you in seconds. It only matters when he lays claim to it and it appears he didn't in public. Stories are just that- stories. Take what you will and if you disagree act like a man of dignity rather than a sore loser. I expect this disdain from a 10-year old who didn't make the team rather than men who claim to be marital artists.

Martial virtue is more than a phrase.

[bakxierboxer]

elemental -

.... Those with questions or bad blood.......
I personally trained under Sifu Manganiello and learned a great deal from him. Anything I had to say was said man-to-man and the experiences taught me a great deal. Who cares what lineage a man has if he can kill you in seconds. It only matters when he lays claim to it and it appears he didn't in public......
..... men who claim to be marital artists.
************

I'm not aware of any contact at all with Sifu Manganiello, let alone "bad blood".

Based on David Ross' (& company) estimation (which I accept), he's quite good and I could have simply sat back and accepted whatever small amount of credit might reflect back on me. Unfortunately, I do not recall ever meeting the man, let alone teaching him.

As for "lineage claims", you need to go back and re-read your own teacher's bio on what appears to be an open/public web-site.

You also need to clarify just exactly what you learned from him.

Pete

[iron_silk]

I have a question...

what was "the test" you had with Mark Gin Foon like? it's sounds fascinating...and I am sure others would be interested as well.

I hope this isn't too off topic.

[bakxierboxer]

I have a question...

what was "the test" you had with Mark Gin Foon like? it's sounds fascinating...and I am sure others would be interested as well.

I hope this isn't too off topic.

Aside from the fact that my entire experience in TCMA to that point (and long after) was nothing more than one prolonged "test"? <g>

Not so surprisingly, the entire ceremony and even the preparations for it were
"just another test" which was apparently expected to be a a rather spectacular "bust".... and there were multiple places before and within that ceremony where everything could have "gone wrong".
Insofar as it was possible, Master Chung did everything he could to make it a success & I would not have made it through without him.
After the ceremony itself, Mark Foon had turned his back to leave the room and Chung stopped him with what sounded a bit like a "reminder".
("demands" were not a good idea)
Mark Foon grudgingly turned back, there was a somewhat heated exchange and Chung told me to "tell him what he did"....
You have to remember that my experience was solely in "long hand".
Mark Foon made a single pass of both hands simultaneously/interwoven.
I "got" the number of moves involved, but not what they were.

By the end of the occasion, Mark Foon actually seemed to have "accepted" what had happened (somewhat) and "helped out" "in his own way".

Pete

[elemental]

Pete,

My response was not aimed at you and I'm sorry for not being specific. As for what I learned while training under Sifu Manganiello, it could only be confirmed or denied by the lineage holder(s) and I have no intention of going down this road. When I joined his school, the word lineage was of no importance to me. Only after spending five years there did I gain an understanding of the importance a sound lineage could offer. My initial thoughts were to learn an art, become a more proficient fighter and get in better shape. When I learned of the internal aspects of the art, it became apparent that there was more to who you trained under than met the eye. More important than actually training under a direct lineage holder is whether the Sifu actually offers all aspects of the knowledge to his students and whether he actually maintains them all.

The early posts in this thread were completely vile and accusatory which cannot have a positive outcome even if you're right. I'm from the school of face-to-face transactions and have come to the realization that posting vehement statements can do nothing but get it off your chest. It will not bear fruit and I was trying to pass this along.

Have questions about a man's lineage- ask him face to face and if the answer isn't what you require, find the man holding the keys..
If you're upset you didn't get the whole pie- find the missing pieces or better yet, bake a new one.
Above all, conduct yourself like a man of dignity and consider others regardless of whether the other parties do for your character either validates or invalidates your statements.

Lastly, how can anyone spewing such venom about a man's journey be taken seriously when they post anonymously?

Be well Brothers,
-Anthony DeSousa

[bakxierboxer]

Anthony -

> My response was not aimed at you and I'm sorry for not being specific.

OK.
I'm new here...
FWIW, I tend to be "rather direct", if not "a bit confrontational".
As near as I can tell, that's a "personality quirK" stemming from "internalizing" "my style".

> As for what I learned while training under Sifu Manganiello, it could only be confirmed or denied by the lineage holder(s) and I have no intention of going down this road. <

Actually, that was a "semi-jibe" based on your mis-keyed "marital artists".

> When I joined his school, the word lineage was of no importance to me.

I "went" from:
"kid-boxing"
to
judo/jujitsu
to
western fencing
to
Shotokan (which (I thought) "looked like" "fencing without the weapon")
to
Kajukenbo (which (I thought) "looked like" "Shotokan in a black gi")
(I actually got "signed up" by "a bit of fluff"/"nude model" who turned out to be Leoning's girlfriend of the moment)
to....
you know the rest.

> Only after spending five years there did I gain an understanding of the importance a sound lineage could offer. <

Quoting my favorite philo-sophist Shaolin Gump:

"Lineage is as lineage duz."

> More important than actually training under a direct lineage holder is whether the Sifu actually offers all aspects of the knowledge to his students and whether he actually maintains them all. <

Or even "got" them in the first place.... aka "Yuan Fen".

> The early posts in this thread....

Mentioned "my name" & I figured that I ought to let folks know about me & my "methods".... which, by the way, precluded anything at all like being a McDojo or McGwoon.

> Have questions about a man's lineage- ask him face to face and if the answer isn't what you require, find the man holding the keys.. <

If it reached that point?
In my own peculiarly helpful manner, I tended to let folks "talk to the wall".

> If you're upset you didn't get the whole pie- find the missing pieces or better yet, bake a new one. <

Hmmmm.... the "ingredients"/"recipe" are pretty important.
(ok, some "bakers" are better than others...)

> Lastly, how can anyone spewing such venom about a man's journey be taken seriously when they post anonymously? <

Particularly in a subculture that sets so much store on "face".

Pete

[White Cloud]

All very interesting stuff. If someone has a question about his lineage, then ask him. What? Like so many already have in the past, only to be led to the same dead end? The bottom line is......pee warrior might be talking out of his......well, he might not know the man, but he does bring up so good points. Can anyone here say for sure where instructor Mike's lineage meets Lam Sai Wing? We all know he got his Hung Gar from Sifu James, who got it from his father, who got it from some village. We also know that since he broke off from Grandmaster Sifu Frank Yee, he can't claim that lineage (which he didn't so calm down), yet teaches more of the Tang Fung lineage, than anything else, because he says it's better. Oops. Sorry Sifu James. We also know that he had no problem posting Sifu Yee's lineage. Clean and to the point. No questions asked. Go to ANY kung fu school, and find the lineage page. All clean and to the point. You might get a brief story, but you WILL have a hierarchy chart of their lineage to look at.

I'm not even touching the rest of the things he claims, because it's just silly. In a manner of a few lines, he met Sifu William Cheung, then "I got his whole system".....he also affectionately makes mention of Sifu Robert Chu as being one of the most influential teachers of his career. Why not ask Sifu Robert Chu what he thinks of him now? He recently did a seminar over there. I felt like a retard at that seminar. It's as if I'd never seen Wing Chun before. Better yet, read his (Sifu Chu) latest article in Inside Kung Fu. Strange coincidence between some of the things he had to say and what's being said here. Ask Sifu James what he thinks of him now. Another man he affectionately accredits as being so influential to his career. Better yet, ask ANY of his current or past students what he thinks of all of you on here defending him. Or even more directly.....ask him his thoughts on internal kung fu. He preaches it doesn't exist. He told us that a few months ago.

Also, is it just me or is his lineage page shrinking since Pete's post?

Understand that I'm not stepping forward for the simple purpose of being disrespectful. We all know that there are true masters and others that simply claim to be true. I have the utmost respect for all my martial arts brothers, and have no problem humbling myself in the face of any true sifu, sensei or teacher. But when someone is being dishonest.....whether you hate private worm's post or not......I was there. I asked him about his lineage. I touched hands with Robert Chu at the seminar. I dare anyone else that attended to post differently. We had nothing. Robert Chu left disgusted.

For all you guys that knew him once upon a time.......I can't speak on that. Maybe he was good in his day.....but this isn't about whether he can fight or not, because that takes heart. I'm willing to agree with you. He's got the heart to stand and fight any man. Ultimately, pickle warrior's post was about lineage. In the discussion of lineage......Sifu James, his father, some village. That's it!! Now you know the only lineage he can claim. I can sign up for any 5-10 schools, and stay for 2 years as well. Am I listing these people on a lineage page? I think not.

And lastly, someone pointed out that it's ok to teach a form or 2 from other styles, then if one seeks more knowledge within those styles, they should seek out sifus within those styles. Well, not only does he frown on his students studying anywhere else, but this man teaches one form in a style, then says you don't need anything else, so he threw it all out. Yes!!! He says this even about Choy Li Fut, which has over a 100 forms. How many have heard the good ole, "originally, I was going to open a choy li fut school, but figured Hung Gar was better for more different body types.".....strange. Not a heavy emphasis on his Choy Li Fut training for someone that has the whole system. But then again.....he never claimed to have the whole system.

Exactly!!!


A recently departed student

[bakxierboxer]

White Cloud -

> Also, is it just me or is his lineage page shrinking since Pete's post?

Must be you.
I just looked and it's still the same....
I guess I thought that one of his friends and/or students would have mentioned my posts to him... perhaps even elemental who appears to run the message board over there.

If that is too much out of line for them, perhaps someone will give me Manganiello Sifu's direct email address?

Pete

[X-Warrior]

Just want to mention that you also don't need to believe everything you hear or read and to go to the person and asks personally certainly not going to get you the truth either.

I too a while ago studied under a master who advertised himself as such a high level master and appointed to carry on the linage, on top of that he called me Chop Sui because I already learned a couple of other styles before I joined his school.

One day, a year later after I started going there I was reorganizing some old magazines in the school and this brochure fell out from this very old one, this brochure was from this master's old school at another town he used to run. Anyway, in it it describes how many other styles this master has learned before - now who is the Chop Sui???

Later on I also found out that he never received the title to carry on the linage. Needless to say, shortly after that I left that school and never had the intention to even drive by it.

[lkfmdc]

Everyone who has been in the MO LUM for any period of time has done several styles. Many still do multiple styles, and many "styles" are just combinations of older styles anyway.... let's see, off the top of my head, sifu who have done more than 1 style

Shum Leung
Frank Yee
Kenny Gong
Chan Tai San
Wai Hong
YC Wong
Adam Hsu
Chan Poi
John Leong
Yip Wing Hong
Lai Hung
Doc Fai Wong
Lee Koon Hung
Chang Tung Sheng

That's just off the top of my head... and look at those names, wow, what BS lineage those guys have! ;)

[TenTigers]

WC,
I see that you are as you say, a recently departed student, who obviously has an axe to grind. Understandable. I'm sure there is a line of my own disgruntled students as well. Can't be helped. You cannot please everyone, and if you try to, you end up compromising your personal beliefs. It is what it is.
As a (former) student of Sifu Mike and of Sifu James, (however,"teach me for one day-you are Sifu for life") allow me to clarify a few things.
First,about Choy Li Fut, not all lineages have over one hundred forms. Buck Sing CLF has three. Doc Fai-Wong's line,which is the one who does. Doc Fai=Wong has even said in an article that to understand CLF, you need only learn five sets-Ng Lun Ma,Ng Lun Choy,(Five wheel horse, and fist-basically the same sets, one footwork the other with added hand-a training set) Siu Moi Fa Kuen,Sup Ji Kau Da,(these are the sets Sifu Mike prefers to teach) and Fut Jeong. Sifu simply does not care for Fut Jeong-his perogative.
Y'know, I would think guys like Tarm Sam and DFW had a pretty good handle on CLF, so if they say that's all you really need, it works for me.
Sifu Tsang Wai-Ming's Gung-Fu came from different sources. His father is but one of them. His other teachers are his business and his alone.
Mo-Lum is a very small world. There are teachers with names and reputations, and there are teachers who prefer to stay under the radar, for their own personal reasons. We should respect their privacy.
Rik Kellerman

[White Cloud]

Agreed with both of you. Many have trained in many styles. Ok, now that we agree......let's get back to the thread. If you want to simply discuss training with many masters, then this isn't the thread for you. This is a very specific issue. Let's revisit lkfmdc's list. Make a new list for us off the top of your head of masters that are claiming they have many complete systems, and are calling the majority of those systems bs? List for us please, the masters that will openly teach a form from a style, then tell you that all you need is that one form, completely disregarding the rest of the discipline. But wait......now I'm steering away from the thread. My point my brothers, isn't whether or not there's anything wrong with studying many styles. My point is, instructor mike obviously didn't study everything he said he did, and of the things he did study, he obviously didn't stay long enough to understand anything. Why else would he disrespect all these other styles and masters? Look. If you want to challenge anything I've said, then do it directly. Don't just go off on your own tangent, like I was saying something is wrong with study many styles. I think it's smart to do so. But unless you fully understand it and have the ok to teach it, then don't promote that you have it. And while you're compiling that list, make us understand why he broke off from Sifu Yee to learn the village style from Sifu James.....just to teach what he can remember of the Tang Fung system? Again. This is about lineage. I was just on my way out the door to sign up at 4 school's. Stick around....the grand opening of my school is in a month. Ok, I'm sorry. That was harsh, but the fact still remains. ......I laid out his lineage. Unless anyone can dispute my claim in regards to his lineage, then what more needs to be said? One respected master, Sifu Robert Chu was disgusted with us. Another respected master has openly pointed out that he's never heard of this guy. This isn't a new thing. Go to his website and check out how many have had the exact same things to say. Not to throw his name in the mix, but the whole time we're being told Ray Pina is full of crap.....he knew exactly what he was talking about, and he had to say that about Ray. Ray was trying to expose the man, and we're just believing everything we're being told. I want someone that was at the Robert Chu seminar to please step forward. Did I stretch the truth or was I not honest enough? If you think I'm just being disrespectful, then let someone else that was there tell it. When it was over, just talking amongst ourselves.......we all felt stupid. Take Pete's comment to heart when he replied to elemental.

> More important than actually training under a direct lineage holder is whether the Sifu actually offers all aspects of the knowledge to his students and whether he actually maintains them all. <

Or even "got" them in the first place.... aka "Yuan Fen".

There is no Wing Chun there!

Aaaah....the famous Rik. We've heard so much about you. At least your forms are good. Anyway, allow me to correct you. He only teaches one CLF form, Siu Moi Fa Kuen and the rest isn't necessary, according to him. Wait! Did I say teach? I'm sorry. He runs a seminar and charges us extra for that form. You guys from way back when that are chiming in. You don't know the man you're defending. I challenge you to go there now, as Robert Chu did. It's not about grinding an axe, it's about what is. Robert Chu once wrote an article....within that very article, he praised mike. Of course, this was written years ago. You can still find it online somewhere. I'm not going on about what he was, I'm going on about what he is. He arrives at the school incredibly late.......sometimes just in time to bow out and collect......doesn't even teach anymore. He has under qualified students teaching, then complains when everyone's forms are different. He had one good guy that used to teach on Wednesdays. His disciple Tommy used to run the best class, but even him.....his drills all came from Sifu Yee. Speaking of which, Tommy's the ONLY person that got certified by Sifu Yee from that school. That walked out the door when he left as well. While you're in such an explaining mood Rik, can you explain why Tommy and Billy both left the school? Hold your horses Betsy!! Why did YOU leave Rik? You can say what you want about who he once was......unless you've been there in the last year like I have, and you've seen that he can't even do an entire form, even if he did remember it.......then please. Respectfully......don't promote something you know nothing about. Oh yeah, it's Doc Fai Wong's over 100 forms lineage that he claims you only need that ONE form. I say, teach me and let me decide for myself whether I need all of it or not......if you have it. Also, I would like to openly apologize to you Rik. I felt I was disrespectful towards you, and for that please accept my apology. Since my emotions in regards to that place are still pretty fresh, I believe I lashed out at you. You are a plethora of knowledge when it comes to this stuff. Many of your posts have been very educational. You've helped me out many times without even knowing it.

However, in closing.......he's a story teller. So he dolled it up, gift wrapped it, and delivered it in a way that made it look appealing. Cool.

Sifu James, his father, some village.

Dispute it! Granted. Rik did mention that Sifu James studied with many people.....but never made mention of where Lam Sai Wing comes in. And you know as well as I do that mike is the ultimate name dropper. I'm surprised he left out the story he told us about Being Poo Yee's bodyguard. That story changed when one of the students of Poo Yee's disciples ended up at the school. Up until that point, Poo Yee sucked. Then it became, "I studied under Poo Yee for 2 days"......

This is what you're defending.

[SavvySavage]

You weren't. There's only one guy who was there and isn't at the school anymore. He wouldn't type this crap online especially since he celebrated the new year at our school show.

You touched hands with Robert Chu? Your wing chun? Don't equate the school's wing chun with your own low level in wing chun. Were you one of those guys that was always afraid to chi sau? You know the type. They sit around watching and brag about everything else that they're "proficient" in. Then chi sao class comes and you're standing around pretending to teach something you have no understanding in.

The wing chun taught in the school was taught to Sifu Mike by Robert Chu. How could Sigung Chu be disgusted by something he taught himself? Sigung's wing chun has changed much over the years from what he spoke about at the seminar. Remember? Of course not because you weren't really there. Sigung Chu was very ****y and upfront about how he felt about wing chun in general. I can see where Sifu Mike gets his attitude toward other styles/teachers. Some of you think this is negative thinking. In my opinion it is just their experiences that they're describing.

Let's talk about your involvement in Tommy's Wednesday class. I remember the drills...but if you're the idiot I'm thinking of, then you weren't at any of those classes either. You don't have the stamina for a class like that.

Sigung Chu and Sifu Mike talk often on the phone. Their might even be another seminar in the works too. Are you going to pretend to show up to that one as well?

[SavvySavage]

Since you were feeling retarded and talking with everyone after the seminar ended then you should be able to answer this. Who were the last two people to chi sao with Sigung Chu? When I chi saoed with him did I get knocked on the floor like the others or did I fair well? My memory's failing me. Help me out.

[White Cloud]

I was wondering when mike's number one supporter would step forward. Why not ask me 10 more questions and let's keep the focus even further away from the issue at hand? I'll answer your question(s) when you answer mine. In a nutshell, what is your master's lineage? So we disagree on the seminar. That's fine. I'm even willing to eat your insults if it will clear up a few things for us. I can take it. Breakdown my post, and share with us just how much of it is also a complete lie, if in fact any of it is. You can start with where he got his Lam Sai Wing from, then continue with.....since it's a Lam Sai Wing school.......why he teaches 85% Tang Fung? Thus completely disrespecting the only lineage he can claim. Keeping in mind that this is an open forum, so when posting your "opinions".....others, which include his current students are also reading this. If I'm completely fabricating my post, then why haven't more people stepped forward? Yet one man did step forward to clear his name and is very much pointing out that he doesn't even know mike. All before I ever posted.

Like Rik said.....any particular master can't please everyone. And he shouldn't bend over backwards to try. He teaches his craft and either some get it or some don't. In that regard, I'm willing to accept that I must've just been one of those guys that just didn't. Rik was 100% correct. I don't need to trade insults with you or anyone else. I wish Rik would've posted sooner, because his words did reach me. Although I still feel the same. I don't need to put it out there like that.


JK

[drleungjohn]

Please email me off list-
drleungjohn@yahoo.com

[bakxierboxer]

White Cloud -

> .... List for us please, the masters that will openly teach a form from a style, then tell you that all you need is that one form <

Ummmm.... I've got a list of one........
WHOOPS!..... make that none......
What he taught me was not open.
Come to think of it, *none* of my TCMA training was *ever* "open door", and that was even more true since the late 60s.

There also happens to be the "small problem" of "context".... unless you're an 80+ year old Chinese TCMA master , things don't always mean what you think you heard.

"Round eyes" can take "a while" to "get it".... if they ever do.

{snip}
> .... Another respected master has openly pointed out that he's never heard of this guy.

??? I'm gonna guess that's me....
For the most part, I'm fairly sure none of you have seen me or would know me "from Adam".
So, thanks for the props.... it's "nice to hear".
I don't run/post-around styling myself as "SiFu this" or "Master That".
It happens that the only opinion of my skill that I truly value is that of my teachers.
(and, yes, I've got a couple of certificates.... one of which recognizes me as a master)
(wait, maybe that's two....depending on how you define "master")
Other than that, the "hands" talk best. (sometimes even the "feets" get in a word or two)

One fellow had an article from '68 up on his web-site, mentioning some now-prominent folks & yours truly as "instructors".... the only non-Chinese name in a rather small group.
There's also a 20 or 30 page out-of-print magazine article from the early 70s.
Some of you may know Kisu... he managed to snag a bit of tape during a demo I did....
I'd asked that no one tape it.... he did it on the sly and it's probably "just as well".
I think it used to be up on his web-site... maybe he can dig it out and put it up again for a little bit.
The only reason I did the demo was that it was a part of introducing my (possibly) last student "around".
Perhaps my old training partner even remembers what I'm "like"... I believe that I've heard the big fella's done pretty well for himself in the SF lama bunch.
(David Ross.... got his email address? (if he doesn't mind))

As for "never heard of this guy", one of his students helpfully gave me his email address and we've exchanged emails & are currently deciding just how we're going to "compare notes".
He thinks he can "validate" his claims.
I'll wait and see.

> Take Pete's comment to heart when he replied to elemental.

>>> More important than actually training under a direct lineage holder is whether the Sifu actually offers all aspects of the knowledge to his students and whether he actually maintains them all. <<<

> > Or even "got" them in the first place.... aka "Yuan Fen".

The "big problem" (at least as I see it) is that this might mean that it's possible that an actual *lineage holder* (read that "head of system") "didn't get it".
You guys get to figure that one (or two)(or more?) out on your own.

From your later post:
> Yet one man did step forward to clear his name and is very much pointing out that he doesn't even know mike.

The part about "clearing" my name is not quite what I posted.
I don't say I can do anything that I have not done.
Similarly, I don't take credit for teaching anyone I have not taught.
Given the faction that *likes* what "never heard of this guy" does, taking credit for some of his accomplishments might well have been a seeming plus for me.... except that I just don't do that sort of thing.
Like I said above, I'll wait to see what he can come up with for "validation".
(but, I *am* a "picky SOB")("high praise" used to be "not bad")
(******! that coulda been *proof*!) <g>

Pete

[SavvySavage]

Still not willing to admit that you weren't present at the seminar? Nice try, dummy.

Sifu Mike told you a few months ago that internal doesn't exist. What month was that?

The issue at hand are only issues because you keep pressing them. What's your lineage? Let's talk about name dropping starting with you telling us your name. Now you're going to say something stupid like, "Let's stick to the issues at hand." Nice try again, double dummy. Avoid avoid avoid.

You questioned Sifu Mike about his lineage? For some reason when people talk to Sifu Mike they never say directly how they feel. Some do, most don't. The ones that don't sugercoat everything and then complain that he doesn't listen when they never said what they wanted to in the first place. I doubt you had the balls to talk to Sifu Mike they way you're talking on this message board. If you did them maybe you would've gotten the answers to the questions you're asking.


In Ba gua they talk about developing the "dragon" body. I'm just curious how you're going to do that with your man tits getting in the way? You are what you eat.

What retarded you and many others fail to realize is that Sifu Mike's greatest talent lays in the fact that he's an innovator. He can create new forms and integrate different methods. For someone slow like you, that means he can change from one of the many styles he studied into another one, while still keeping a hung gar/wing chun base. Hung gar is a really hard style to understand. Most can't do what Sifu Mike does. They'll use a wing chun base and throw in a few elements as hung gar. There's nothing wrong with that but it reflects how much more of an understanding he has in hung kuen over his students. This is much more important to me than his lineage.

[King Honesty]

I sincerely hope you weren't referring to me. For starters, I wasn't at the seminar, nor do I care about the politics of your school anymore. I've never posted my opinions anywhere for the public to see. Now, I'm not saying I disagree with WC, because I do agree with most of his allegations, but I would never say that my stint with the school was a complete waste of time either. I gained some very good things over there, regardless of my views in regards to his lineage. Now. If you were referring to me, let's discuss this false sense of security that you have hiding behind a computer and your sifu. When we were all out to dinner the last Friday I was with you guys, and I called you out multiple times, why did you shut up? Did you think sifu mike was going to fight your battles too? And why is it that you and nicky mouse are the first ones to always invite someone to, "got something to say? Come on up anytime.".....but what happened when Anthony went up there after your mouth got you in trouble, after you disrespected quite a few people, including one of sifu mike's disciples. Neither of you would step up. Why is that? Why invite anyone with the heart, to come see you, then back down? This was you, "you're actually challenging one of sifu mike's disciples?", Duh! Because in your mind, it will end there. In your mind, even if anyone did come up, you'd never have to actually deal with it, because sifu mike would, which I also believe to be true. But don't get it twisted. I went straight to sifu mike, and told him myself I was on the verge of ripping your freakin head off. We had an entire discussion about it, so don't go thinking I'm afraid to say what I want and have to hide behind some name, cuz I'm not. All of you sat there in shock at the way I said the things I had to say, and said them directly to sifu mike. Now I would have to hide behind some name? When I called you out that Friday night, he was sitting right there!!!! I've openly agreed with WC. I just don't agree with doing it the way he did. The things PW had to say are straight-up slander, because he doesn't know for sure that those things are true, so that's why that's wrong. But if you still feel like calling someone names, then I won't have to go to you, now will I? And the way I remember it, when the chi sao and the fighting began, it was you and your little fanclub that would go running outside to practice forms. I'm good with doing what I do now. You do what you do, and let's both be cool living our own lives. I'm so over our little beef. I don't need to be getting any phone calls from anyone telling me you're implying me anymore. I've made it clear. WC isn't me. Although I agree, he's not me. Sifu mike does what he does. Whether you love him or hate him, he's not going out of his way to disrupt anyone's life. If you believe in him, good, if you don't, then also good. To the WCs, the PWs, and the RPs......use that negative energy and do something good. Go train. There you go. Work it out that way.

Now, in the event you didn't mean me, then it was fun posting anyway, since I've never posted before. Can we do shout-outs on here as well?


Also, a former student (well over a year ago),
Stephane

[King Honesty]

I don't pay attention to it. I got a call. I came on here to say my piece. I'm done. I see you're still the same arrogant kid that still hasn't learned to keep your mouth shut, until someone's in your face. Funny how you had nothing to say about Anthony all out challenging you. Anyway, like I said before, I'm doing my thing, you do yours. Leave it at that. If you feel the need to continue, then we should do so differently. I'm not going to do this on here. Oh, when did I spar? Are you kidding me?!?! I sparred with you!! And let's make this clear, I was sparring.....you were getting knocked around. 2 disciples were there that can confirm this. Both Tommy and Billy, so let's get off of this, because this is stupid.


Stephane

[Golden Arms]

If he is on good ground with Leong, CTS and Chan Poi, then I dont even know why people are bothering to question stuff. You students should be airing your dirty laundry face to face. I would be ashamed...

[TenTigers]

I also have trained in numerous arts. Hey,Some people collect stamps...This has given me a good idea of what I want, and like. It also has made me a well-rounded Martial Artist, who can be counted on to officiate in many divisions in tournaments, be it Japanese, or Korean Karate,Northern, Southern, Short Hand,internal,self-defense,etc-also makes me very busy and very tired.:(
However, for the past twenty years, I have focused on Hung Kuen. Sifu Mike has done the same, focusing mainly on Hung Kuen, and Wing Chun. Hung Kuen, Wing Chun,Southern mantis,and Bak Mei have many similarities, and their lineages are somewhat connected. These systems do not contradict one another, but reinforce the teachings, through specializations of specific methods.
I see no reason to nitpick. Sifu Mike is certainly not myopic in his understanding of Chinese Martial Arts,like some people. indeed, he is, and has always been an "outside the box thinker."

[chop choy]

Well since my name has been dragged into this I feel i must respond to clear some issues. SavvySavage,I see you still cant control your mouth after being Sifu Mikes disciple for over a year.Maybe in the next year you can do so.If you ever wondered why i havet been back to the school{answer}your mouth.And as far as the problem you had with Anthony you didnt deal with it you ran from him as many in the school would.You INSULTED not only him but his family and myself all in the same post.not cool.As for Stephane you always did say whats on your mind weather it was right or wrong or unprofessional.I dont see why he would post all the stuff that savvysavage claims.WHATS HE TO GAIN?As for the rest of you my training under Sifu Mike was about 20years long.Dont think that this man does not have the keys you need to survive in a street fight.PW Do you carry a paper that tells everyone you have the correct lineage or is it in tattoo form?WC I feel you left on very bad terms?Was this due to the Sifu or a stundent?As for all the name calling alot of you need to grow up.TT you have alot of knowledge as you alway did on cma.As for SavvySavage I was there the night you and Stephane sparred and if he only had 30 sec of stamina as you put it then you lost all 30 sec remember i was the ref. Billy S

[cjurakpt]

an observation: Private Warrior seems to have touched off an in-house flame war - was this his original intent, I wonder? reminds me a little of what went on a few months ago with the CTS crowd and a certain nameless "noone"...

[Lokhopkuen]

White Cloud -

> .... List for us please, the masters that will openly teach a form from a style, then tell you that all you need is that one form <

<SNIP>
One fellow had an article from '68 up on his web-site, mentioning some now-prominent folks & yours truly as "instructors".... the only non-Chinese name in a rather small group.
There's also a 20 or 30 page out-of-print magazine article from the early 70s.
Some of you may know Kisu... he managed to snag a bit of tape during a demo I did....
I'd asked that no one tape it.... he did it on the sly and it's probably "just as well".
I think it used to be up on his web-site... maybe he can dig it out and put it up again for a little bit.
The only reason I did the demo was that it was a part of introducing my (possibly) last student "around".
Perhaps my old training partner even remembers what I'm "like"... I believe that I've heard the big fella's done pretty well for himself in the SF lama bunch.
(David Ross.... got his email address? (if he doesn't mind))<SNIP>
<g>

Pete

PR? Is that you? Funny you would mention that tape as I thought it was lost but Ooowww Weeee lookie!

Are you talking about the demo at my PICO School opening or one of my other ones?
I tape everything with two or three cameras. One seen and one hidden. (Especially parties!!!)

I didn't read this whole thread but what is the deal? They think you can't scrap?
I'll tell a secret: If you box with Pete watch your chin as well as the erman points at the top of your jaw 'cause he'll knock that s h i t loose, ha ha ha!

PM me and I'll give you my phone number. In Beverly Hills now.

Peace:D

[bakxierboxer]

LOKHOPKUEN
Kisu?

> PR? Is that you?

Yup... all there is of me.

> Funny you would mention that tape as I thought it was lost but Ooowww Weeee lookie! <

Still got alla dat stuff? <g>

> Are you talking about the demo at my PICO School opening or one of my other ones? I tape everything with two or three cameras. One seen and one hidden. (Especially parties!!!) <

Hmmm...?
I don' 'member no PAR-teez! ("par" for "the course"?) heh!
I was mostly thinking of the shorty tape from Richard Meier-King's shindig.
Part of the Small Cross & direct move-for-move decent-level one-on-one breakdown/"chai".
That entire set and a "more general" breakdown was in the magazine article.
That issue was the first time any folks from multiple styles presented forms and their "direct" applications. Not sure the other guys did that very well,since it seemed to be a "foreign concept" to them and most of the MA community at the time.

I'm not sure I want the set from the PICO opening in the public domain just yet.

Anything from the KFList meeting at your old school?
(or Ken Edwards'?)

> I didn't read this whole thread but what is the deal? They think you can't scrap?

Nope, nuthin' like that.
A fellow posted my name spelled incorrectly in his web-site/MA-bio, etc.
I joined up to say so, introducing myself with a properly spelled name and a chronological listing of my teachers.
Someone decided that I was a "respected master" and I simply said "thanks", but that they didn't *know me* "from Adam" and had never seen me *do* anything.

> I'll tell a secret: If you box with Pete watch your chin as well as the erman points at the top of your jaw 'cause he'll knock that s h i t loose, ha ha ha! <

Thanks for misleading them! <G> ahHAHAHAHAHAHhhaaaa...choke!
Or were you referring to that last move I put on Neil at the KFlist meeting at your old place?
(of the many moves I did put on him)
(did you know that he came back out for private lessons?)

> PM me and I'll give you my phone number. In Beverly Hills now.

Okay.

Pete

[Vajramusti]

Greetings!!!
Best wishes for the New Year to you and family.

joy chaudhuri

[tug]

I know I haven't posted in quite a while, but this whole thing started by Warrior's Privates has kept reminding me of Die Hard -

Powell: "They're shooting at the lights"

Sergeant: "Uh, yeah, they're shooting at the lights!"


Honestly, just drop it, and this troll. He's obviously trying (successfully) to roil the waters for no good reason but his own enjoyment.

The best defense is no defense. Let him/her drown in their own excrement and move on. We should all know better by now...

'Nuff said. :cool: :p

TuG.

[Lokhopkuen]

Greetings!!!
Best wishes for the New Year to you and family.

joy chaudhuri

Brother JC! How is the beautiful painted lands?

Miss ya!

Peace

[Lama Pai Sifu]

The best defense is no defense.


I disagree. Here is a wise quote from an old sage;

The best defense is a good offense.

~ Mel Sharple (The the owner of the dinner and cook on "Alice")


HA HA HA

[tug]

Wow, that's a blast from the past! Haven't seen that show in ages.

Good one. :D

[brothernumber9]

Mel



















Kiss my GRiTTS!!!

[PrivateWarrior]

an observation: Private Warrior seems to have touched off an in-house flame war - was this his original intent, I wonder? reminds me a little of what went on a few months ago with the CTS crowd and a certain nameless "noone"...

I guess I started a nice friendly debate. The purpose of my post was to find out the truth about a so-called lineage. In that process, I seem to have exposed some flaws in the way things are done at that school, and I apologize for that.

A lot of you don't seem to like me, although I do happen to like the nickname PW. So thank you for that.

I guess this man still has some explaining to do, and being that his disciple and #1supporter Savvy Savage doesn't seem to be very well liked, very well spoken, or very good at sparring, his "lineage" :) will not continue past himself.

So in conclusion, I guess I was right all along, and we have come up with this as this man's lineage:

Some pictures in the woods - Village Style - Sifu James - Sifu Mangiello

Thank you for all your input, it was extremely enlightening to say the least. And I would be interested in learning from Master Robinson, he sounds like everything a Kung Fu Master should be. How can I find you?

[TenTigers]

lineage,shmineage. Go chase someone for lineage. See what good that does. What good is being the worst student under the best Sifu? What does lineage mean if you don't have the hand? There are practitioners out there with wallpaper saying this and that, who are not fit to carry their Sifu's shoes. There are people who travel to distant shores, pay money,bai-si to a Sifu just so they can claim "lineage".
...and...There are also people who have tremendous skill, and claim nothing more than that. Skill. These days,lineage does not carry the weight people think it does. And...several generations back, when people's lives depended on how good their hand was, didn't give a rat's a s s about whether their Sifu had wallpaper. The only thing that mattered then, and the only thing that matters now,in my book at least, is skill. I don't have to ask my Sifus, if they bai-si'd. I really don't care. I like what I am being taught, and their reputation is stellar. As is their hand. Works for me.
But then again, that's me, and IIve always been known to be a bit "out there", right?

Hey Gene, how come you don't have an emoticon that gives the respberry??
:p thhpppptttt!!!!

[bakxierboxer]

Lama Pai Sifu -

{Tug}
>> The best defense is no defense.

> I disagree. Here is a wise quote from an old sage;

"The best defense is a good offense." Mel Sharple
(The owner of the dinner and cook on "Alice")

???
That sounds awfully familiar....
Any possibility that he was a direct lineage descendant of
the Revered Master Shaolin Gump?

> HA HA HA

???
I think I heard that one somewhere, too....

Pete

[SheathedSword]

What are all of you thinking? All of you know better then to post this stuff publicly. Ever heard of private messages? You look like a bunch of feuding kids. We all know Sifu Mike has skill and knowledge. Where he got this skill and knowledge is not nearly as important.

A schools internal matters should be kept internal.

Jason DeSousa

[TenTigers]

I second that. Just fer that, I'm gonna call up all your Si-Hings and tell'em to give ya's all a severe tongue lashing! (hmmm, wait a minute. That sounds a bit obscene...and kinda exciting...I mean, no, wait..I mean if it were a Si-Jei! yeah, I'm gonna call up your Si-Jei...is she cute? Does she have a sister?ok, I'm old. does she have a foxey aunt? an ugly friend and a six-pack of Tsing Taos?
but I digress....sorry, my ritalin hasn't kicked in yet.
Ok, It's Friday Night, you guys should be out Lion Dancing!!!

[chop choy]

Savvy Savage,

To go on with this is like dealing with a soap opera. Your probably sitting at home in your spiderman pj's waiting for me to reply. Please call me at home if you want to hear the truth. If you post about me again i will go up to the school where we can talk about our disagreements in person. I am a man of my word, you know that. So good-bye. :cool: Billy

[bakxierboxer]

PrivateWarrior -

> This was not my intention

(see title)

> A lot of you don't seem to like me, although I do happen to like the nickname PW. So thank you for that. <

Ummm.... before adopting that one for all your webwork, maybe you'd like to look that one up on http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=PW
and it's also altogether too easy to turn/extend it into "PWnd".

> I guess this man still has some explaining to do...

Since I'm not notoriously easy to satisfy, that is still "in progress"...
In a previous "incarnation" I was a Tech Writer.
My too-recently deceased Father was an Attorney.
I *like* reading/analyzing/considering "details".... and extrapolating from them.
Extrapolations can produce "theories".... which should then be "subjected" to
"real world testing"....
(did some of this "help" with my TCMA?)
(did some of this "earn me some lumps"?)

AAAAaaaaah.... where *was* I?

Ah, yes....
Manganiello Sifu and I have been corresponding a bit. which appears to translate as a "trial" for him since he seems (for whatever reason) to despise "keyboarding"
He's come up with enough of those details I happen to like raking over the occasionally-flaming coals in my mind that it's rather likely we'll be having a telephone conversation sometime soon.

Over some years, Master Mark came to the conclusion that:
"Pete's Chinese!"
(this was in spite of "looking funny")
(ok, it also suited his purposes and would have served his 'druthers at the time)
Master Chung was trying to point that "appearances count for something", but got "shut down" with a rather withering glare.
My own bai-si ceremony was both real and *live* ("unreal")(at the time)
Most Americans will never have such experiences, let alone the same results.
A blatantly obvious fact is that *this is America*.
Most students will *be* "Americans".
What's the percentages?
I dunno, but a "best case" might be my own "generation".
The 2nd and 3rd disciples "fell out" in something like 15 and 3 months, respectively
The 3rd disciple also happened to be (ok, not *really* "American") an ethnic Chinese from HK, from a wealthy family in import/export who'd enjoyed a "cosmopolitan" upbringing.... "he should have known better"?
Americans (best case) are used to earning things.
I "let" students earn/prove what they are.
It isn't at all difficult to organize material in a progressively "better" manner that rewards effort/accomplishment with "better" material.... as it's earned.
Sounds pretty "American" to me.
Also happens to sound an awful lot like the way TCMA learning should be.

> So in conclusion, I guess I was right all along, and we have come up with this as this man's lineage:
Some pictures in the woods - Village Style - Sifu James - Sifu Mangiello <

If/when(?) I decide that he's my student's student....
His teacher is dead.
I was SiFu to his teacher.
Which might make me SiGung to him.... if he even wants that.
If there is anything at all to "lineage", it is that it is similar to "family".
If he has the desire and remembers the material well enough....

> Thank you for all your input, it was extremely enlightening to say the least. And I wish I had learned under Sifu Robinson, he speaks the truth and has a real lineage, with a good sense of humor. How can I find you? <

Currently in SoCal.
I am not cheap.
"Reasonable"? Very, given what I actually do teach.
OTOH, my "scam" price might be illustrated by my last (some time ago) seminar:
"Guaranteed to improve "X" by at least 80%, or don't pay!"
(everybody paid)
My "best" scam is... "Oh, okay.... just pay me what it's worth!"
(he was on a "learning tour" of the US and "flush" and ended up apologizing for not having more money, but he needed to pay for plane fare back to Australia)
(OK, that's not an "American", but it was "close enough")
(ummm... I also need to be thoroughly convinced of someone's honesty before I offer that one)

You also need to consider that there is some possibility of ending up in a smallish group with "never heard of him".

Pete

[bakxierboxer]

TenTigers -

> lineage,shmineage.

I like that one... think I've used it before.
(maybe I got it from Shaolin Gump?)

> ... There are people who travel to distant shores, pay money,bai-si to a Sifu just so they can claim "lineage". <

Aside from a small amount for "supplies"/"fixin's" my own Bai-Si ceremony cost absolutely $0.00. I don't even recall having to buy my new Master and Grand Master dinner. (since memory is serving me well: in some ways, I wish I had)

"wallpaper"...
Master Chung was looking for "recognition" outside of Chinatown.
He decided to join the old Society of Black Belts of America and something else also run by S. Henry Cho.
Cho, being Korean, asked to see his "certificate".
GM Mark, being GM Mark, couldn't be bothered at the time.
Cho, being Cho, asked that GM Mark "come to *see* him"?
GM Mark, being GM Mark, figured "What the hell! If he wants a fight...."
Master Chung schlepped GM Mark to Cho's school.
GM Mark rather expectantly positioned himself confronting a still-seated Cho.
Cho, still being Cho, asked to see GM Mark's "certificate" (which I've since seen)
Cho had water boiling in a pot.
GM Mark, grunted, told Master Chung to bring him the pot.
He then told him to dump the water.
Chung didn't know where to dump it.
Mark took the pot and dumped the water on the floor.
He put the pot upside down on Cho's desk, put his hand flat on the bottom of the still-hot pot for a longish moment so that Cho could see he was "unbothered".
As soon as Cho's eyes had widened enough... he simply squashed that pot flat.
Cho's eyes were pretty much all the way out of his head.
Cho: (gulping) "OK, I guess I don't need to see his certificate...."
GM Mark turned to Master Chung, demanding cab-fare back to Chinatown.
"... and by the way, fix that pot."
Master Chung: "How am I supposed to do *that*?"
GM Mark: "Hit it a few times... or as many as necessary."
After hitting it a while to "comply", Chung went out and bought a new pot.

Pete

[TenTigers]

That was a great story! Master Mark has quite a few legendary ones. I don't know if you know the one about the Hakka guy who "came to visit" Master Mark? I've only heard bits and pieces, but it wqs the stuff that legends are made from. If you know this, would you mind sharing?

[bakxierboxer]

Ten Tigers -

> That was a great story!

Thanks.
I think they "come out better" in response to "something current", interest-wise.
I'm an inveterate/unreformed "teacher-type", mostly using stories to
"make a point"/"get people to think"/"git'cho'miiine'right" (Warden, Coolhand luke)

> Master Mark has quite a few legendary ones.

Fer shure.

> I don't know if you know the one about the Hakka guy who "came to visit" Master Mark? I've only heard bits and pieces, but it wqs the stuff that legends are made from. If you know this, would you mind sharing? <

?
Not sure...
What year?
E. Broadway or Christie Street?
On Leong or Freemasons?
I was also not always "positioned" to see/hear everything, since I was also operating my clubs and gwoon in Ct. Master Chung lived in Hoboken at one time and had a club at the Y there. He also taught classes on & off at Aaron Banks' two different Times Square schools.
At first, in some ways, I was a kind of "ready-made white guy" they could trot out to prove that they really *did* teach non-Chinese.
For the most part, to that point, I had a lot of forms..... and a bit of a propensity for getting into face-to-face stuff with karate-guys who didn't like to back down.
The time I was about to get into it with Frank Ruiz, Master Chung "cruised by" and demanded "What are you doing with my student!"
FR: "Well, I, ah, he's YOUR student Master Chung? Well, in *that* case...."

That was possibly the point when Masters Mark and Chung figured they'd better show me something so that I'd win in the "right manner" and may have been the reason that the whole disciple business got started.... which also led to "political problems" with "other parties" in 60s Chinatown.
"Nobody was impressed" with my forms which had "too many flowers"
(according to Lum Sang, and I have NO idea how or when he ever even saw me)
(then, again. Share Lew used to pull "stuff like that" "all the time") or my
(only somewhat) Nishiyama-like kicking skills; although, in later years, Chung confided that I was one of the best kickers he'd ever seen.... personally, I was kind of astounded that he'd ever even *looked* at "kickers" and was kind of used to being the second-best kicker at Leoning's school... the best guy and I got tired of living in the gwoon and walking down the street to the local health club to shower, so we got an apartment a block from the school which got the Islanders teasing us about being "the kickee tweens" or some crap like that.
WHY was I "astounded"?
At Banks' first off-Times Square school a well-known ("pretty-boy") karate-instructor was "having words" with Master Chung about the relative value of the kicking skills he was so proud (to me, unjustifiably) of.... Chung *demanded* that he put up or shut up.
To anyone who didn't know better, someone just looking at him wouldn't think he was particularly "agile". The guy finally threw a foolishly chosen mid-height roundhouse,which caused Master Chung to promptly *run under it*, grabbing his hand in the process. So... I'm standing there looking at Chung holding the guy's hand pulled back between his legs and the guy is pretty well bent over....
Chung looks at me: "Well! SHOULD I!"
I scratch my head, shrug my shoulders.....
Doofus: "PLEASE! NO Master Chung! DON'T!"
Master Chung: "You're right, Pete!" shrugs and dumps the guy on his head.
Chung: "Sorry, fella! gotta do what my students expect me to do!"
(pretty good load of BS "off-the-cuff" there.... )

I kinda left out a line of that last story....

>> GM Mark turned to Master Chung, demanding cab-fare back to Chinatown.

Master Chung: "You don't need to take a cab! I'll drive you!"
GM Mark: "No, you're busy!..."
Master Chung: "With what?"

GM Mark: (continuing) "... fixing that pot."
Master Chung: "How am I supposed to do *that*?"
GM Mark: "Hit it a few times... or as many as necessary."
After hitting it a while to "comply", Chung went out and bought a new pot.

Seems that somebody always has to "pay" for "inconveniences".
Then again, we all know that by now....

Pete

[jo]

Peter,

I have a simple question.

Who certified "Master" Chung as a master in which style?


-jo

[bakxierboxer]

jo -

(is that a feminine "jo"?

As in the title above, that would be: Master Chung (with no quotation marks)

> Peter

As in my intro, that would be Pete (also without quotation marks)
(ok, my given name is Peter)
I do not hold with formality merely for the sake of formality.

> I have a simple question.

Jeepers!
How 'bout dat!
Funny you should ask!

First, we've got to get a couple of things straight....
Which, unfortunately, leads to a number of "simple questions".....

There are two kinds of "simple questions".
Which is yours?

You've been on the forums since 1969.
So... it looks like you can read.
So... it looks like you have an "interest" in TCMA.
That's more than 30 years... so, I'm gonna guess that you train in TCMA.

This leads to the next "simple question".

There are two kinds of "simple people".
Which are you?

> Who certified "Master" Chung as a master in which style?

Some reasonably large portion of this thread has been about "certification" and its not infrequent similarity to "wallpaper".
In TCMA, there happens to be one thing that is far more indicative of a Master's willingness to "vouch" for his student than some "steenkin' pees'a paper".
Some might even think that it is the *most* indicative voucher possible.

I think my posts have even given an example of that voucher.
Anybody here who can read better (or in a less jaundiced manner) than jo should feel free to point it out.

(DRAT! who let the snark out?)
(uncoiling and cracking the well-preserved Pete Robinson Special Bucheimer Bull/Snark Whip...)

Pete

[The Xia]

You've been on the forums since 1969.
There weren't any internet Kung Fu forums in 1969. :p
That's a forum glitch where certain people who were here before a certain time have messed up join dates.

[lkfmdc]

There weren't any internet Kung Fu forums in 1969. :p
That's a forum glitch where certain people who were here before a certain time have messed up join dates.

Sure they were, that was the year Al Gore invented them! :p

This thread still going? :eek:

[Lama Pai Sifu]

This thread still going? :eek:

I'm having trouble following it. I like Pete's posts, but I'm having trouble reading them. Hey Pete! Wrap some quotes (icon to the left of the number sign) around the text that someone else wrote, so it doesn't confuse us readers. Highlight the text and then press the quotes button. I'm not trying to be funny, it would just make it easier for us to differenciate your writing from someone you are quoting. :)

MP

[bakxierboxer]

The Xia -

>> You've been on the forums since 1969.

> There weren't any internet Kung Fu forums in 1969.
That's a forum glitch where certain people who were here before a certain time have messed up join dates. <

You're right.
1969 was the beginning of the old (rather restricted) Darpanet.
Just because I was learning Algol and programming on punch cards in '62 doesn't mean there were "forums"... heck that was even before BBS' !
(which I restricted my online stuff (the old CIS) to until far too recently)
I'm not even sure if all teletype consoles had CRTs then.
Another Leoning student (JImmy "K" Bell) was "makin' the big bucks" on the graveyard shift as a "computer operator" stuffing punch cards into an old Honeywell (12-bit?) mini-computer....

Drat!
Does this mean that I can't believe what I read here on KFO?
Hmmm.... going on to analyze this a bit..... guess it may mean that all these folks who seemed to have 30+ years actually may not?

Durnit!

Pete

[bakxierboxer]

Sure they were, that was the year Al Gore invented them! :p
:eek:

You sure that wasn't them intertubes?

This thread still going?

The actual question has actually been 90+% resolved as far as I'm concerned.
Manganiello Sifu will be making a few changes for accuracy on his TCMA bio, but he certainly seems to be one of my "grand-students".

If it's not too much trouble, I'd appreciate it if you'd e-mail or PM me my old training partner's contact (email) info.
(if you think he won't mind)
(or, failing that, give him mine)

Pete

[bakxierboxer]

{grumble}
(danged young whippersnappers!)
(how's'zis?)

I'm having trouble following it. I like Pete's posts, but I'm having trouble reading them. Hey Pete! Wrap some quotes (icon to the left of the number sign) around the text that someone else wrote, so it doesn't confuse us readers.
MP

Still too used to the "old" dial-up connections and "conserving bandwidth".
From the old CIS BBS and all my postings on the KFlist I got used to using ">" and "<" math-marks to denote levels of reference.
My own current comments would have no such marks.

Highlight the text and then press the quotes button. I'm not trying to be funny, it would just make it easier for us to differenciate your writing from someone you are quoting. :)

*WHAT* "quotes button"?
WHAT "number sign"?
Oh..... there it is!

'Zat mo' bettah?
('druther put my thought into my words....)
{grumble... grump!...}

Pete

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Yess'um, zdat's mo' bettah now!

[jo]

Pete, in your post you delcared that Bill Chung is a Master. I asked you who made him a master and of what style. True, ANYONE can call themselves anything they want, but I would like to hear your version of....who taught Bill Chung and in what style?

-jo

[bakxierboxer]

Yess'um, zdat's mo' bettah now!

!@#$%^&*()!!!
Gots to git'cho gendah raht!
Mek dat "Yes-sah!" or"Yazzuh!" :D

Pete

[bakxierboxer]

Pete, in your post you delcared that Bill Chung is a Master. I asked you who made him a master and of what style. True, ANYONE can call themselves anything they want, but I would like to hear your version of....who taught Bill Chung and in what style?
-jo

I did not like the apparent "attitude" of your first post.
Even though this one is "better", you still haven't earned any answers from me.

Go read my previous posts in this thread and then answer the question yourself in conjunction with my previous response to you.

If you can't do that, then you aren't worth answering at all.

**********

If *somebody else* wants to kick her(?) in the right direction.... showing that they "know" some of what's there....... maybe I'll answer *them*.
...... and maybe I won't, since some good amount of it is insider "family" stuff.

Pete

[lkfmdc]

:confused:



If it's not too much trouble, I'd appreciate it if you'd e-mail or PM me my old training partner's contact (email) info.



was this directed at me? who is your old training partner and why would I have his/her email? :confused:

[bakxierboxer]

:confused:

was this directed at me? who is your old training partner and why would I have his/her email? :confused:

Yep, you.
I seem to remember talking to you about him some years ago.
Tony "G" in SF.... you want me to give his full name & what style he's doing, too?
Also thought you recently said you were going to be working on a project together.
(just as I may now be taking a small part in Michael Manganiello's next/current project)
(well,,,, maybe that's not "just the same"...)

(that make it "less confusing"?) :D

Pete

[lkfmdc]

I know who you are talking about now, but I haven't spoken to Tony literally in years, try Steve Richards, he seems to have contact for everyone

[bakxierboxer]

I know who you are talking about now, but I haven't spoken to Tony literally in years, try Steve Richards, he seems to have contact for everyone

Thanks.
"Just curious".
No big deal.

Pete

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Tony stayed with me for a couple of months, back in 1994, but after not being able to find suitable work, he left for CA again. Corresponded a few times since then but I've lost touch.

MP

[David Jamieson]

Who made leonardo Da Vinci a Master? Another person? Or his merit and body of work?

It is those who defer to you that make you a master, not someone handing you a certificate...not ever, not before, not now and not in the future because in truth, only you can make you a master and only you can do that through demonstration of skill and ability.

To be a master is not to lord over someone else, it is to master yourself and the skill(s) you have chosen to work on and make the best you can while you take your few trips around the sun.

anyone who claims mastery because someone gave them a piece of paper doesn't understand what a master is.

Most times you can tell a master simply by watching them do what they do.
Conversely, you can also tell who is not a master in teh same way despite what someone may bill themselves as.

[bakxierboxer]

Tony stayed with me for a couple of months, back in 1994, but after not being able to find suitable work, he left for CA again. Corresponded a few times since then but I've lost touch.
MP

A couple of months?
You must have gotten along pretty well with him....
Other than the job-prospects, I hope he was happy with "where he was at".
I also hope that he's resolved that particular "concern".

After I closed my Gwoon (at least partly due to the Carter "economy"), it was "feast or famine"... until I "discovered" the not-screwed-up Aerospace Job-Shopping "profession" of the Reagan Years and had more work available than I could do.
By dint of TCMA-derived "efficiencies" I was able to "land" and simultaneously perform a number of result-oriented contracts at once, run a club at a local health club, start and run a "state approved" Rape Prevention program, a closed-door club, and get elected as "Director of Public Affairs" for the New England Chapter of the Association of Energy Engineers. This last was by direct/open voice vote which unanimously gave my previously non-existent "office" the power to "do it in the road".... and also happened to include "liaison" to the USDOE Region #1 & providing an Association presence/voice at the "New England Energy Engineering Task Force".... where I met and was made to "feel dirty" by being in the same room with Teddy Kennedy and Paul Tax-on-gas. ("happily", I only had to endure one at a time)(oh yeah... & "Bonnie" Barney Frank on a separate "occasion"). In my spare time I wrote and presented a paper in DC at the Senate Energy Conservation Hearings (an "excellent concept", if I do say so myself.... it was "good enough" to be "adapted" and screwed up by YAK (Yet Another Kennedy)
I eventually carried the least-political parts of this to SoCal, where I've applied it on an "ad hoc" basis.
(until the tax-code made that particular kind of work "less-desirable")

Pete

[Lama Pai Sifu]

:rolleyes:
A couple of months?
You must have gotten along pretty well with him....
Other than the job-prospects, I hope he was happy with "where he was at".
I also hope that he's resolved that particular "concern".



Pete,

I have no idea what you are referring to regarding Tony G. You may PM me if you like or clarify what you mean on the forum. Tony came to visit me and my Sifu like I mentioned previously. It turned out that he decided to stay awhile.

MP

[bakxierboxer]

:rolleyes:

I have no idea what you are referring to regarding Tony G. You may PM me if you like or clarify what you mean on the forum. Tony came to visit me and my Sifu like I mentioned previously. It turned out that he decided to stay awhile.
MP

OTOH, I probably use too many quotation-marks....


A couple of months?
You must have gotten along pretty well with him....
Other than the job-prospects, I hope he was happy with "where he was at".
I also hope that he's resolved that particular "concern".

My personal preference is to live alone.
"at" was about becoming disciple to a Master and "losing" him too soon.
"concern" was about suitable work.

Pete

[htowndragon]

tony the tiger is cool. frosted flakes are awesome.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

That's a shame, but I am not suprised.

:(

[bakxierboxer]

tony the tiger is cool. frosted flakes are awesome.

"K" . "E" . "Double "L" . "O" . "Double G".....

Pete

[lkfmdc]

I love them frosted flakes

[htowndragon]

isn't bill chung john springers hung gar teacher? i hear his hung gar is half toisan village style from GFM (right hand dominant) and half from chang hon chung of LSW lineage.

[bakxierboxer]

isn't bill chung john springers hung gar teacher? i hear his hung gar is half toisan village style from GFM (right hand dominant) and half from chang hon chung of LSW lineage.

Hmmmmm?
It seems that John Springer has said a lot of stuff.
"right hand dominant"? Nope.

If anyone wants to think that the rest of what John said is equally "different" from what I know....

Let's edit these posts, too.

Pete

[elemental]

Who made leonardo Da Vinci a Master? Another person? Or his merit and body of work?

This is one of the better questions I have seen in a while. Many have a certificate or direct lineage to the Shaolin temple, but this does not make them a Master worth following. This lies in their mastery of themselves as David pointed out - IN ADDITION to their art. To lead by example is the key. No one is perfect, but a master who continues to develop his art, work on his own demons and assist others both in their study and as humans is what I would consider a true Master. Such a man would have a monstrous following.


It is those who defer to you that make you a master, not someone handing you a certificate...not ever, not before, not now and not in the future because in truth, only you can make you a master and only you can do that through demonstration of skill and ability.

To be a master is not to lord over someone else, it is to master yourself and the skill(s) you have chosen to work on and make the best you can while you take your few trips around the sun.

AMEN! If one stops and rests on accolades, he does not promote the art, nor does he continue to grow and lead by example. Additionally, whatever knowledge he fails to bestow dies with him. It appears from my perspective that finding good students is as hard as finding a good Master.

[bakxierboxer]

It appears from my perspective that finding good students is as hard as finding a good Master.

Heh!
That is worth remembering.... as I sought to infer before, there's even a remote possibility that some lineage holders were not remarkably good students. :(

Pete

[SavvySavage]

Sorry I'm so late to the party, guys, but I've been caught up with Chinese New Year and haven't had a chance to post. Whew! Seven pages, huh? This thing really went to Pluto before it petered-out. I always do like to cause a stir... Well, I've been the guest of honor at "Internet Roasts" before. Not the first time and probably won't be the last. Glad to see this one had "legs." I guess that's one of the reasons I don't post that often. I tend to wake up the next morning feeling like Gulliver the night after the Annual Lilliputian Gang Bang Ball. Lots of little *****s and stains, but nothing really substantial to speak of.

Anyway, let's clarify a few points:
First and foremost, a heartfelt "thank you" to all my colleagues who posted favorably in support of me. Many of you I recognize from your screen names but some of you I don't think I've ever had the pleasure to meet. Thank you anyway for your support. It was greatly appreciated.

Secondly, I'd like to publicly apologize to Sifu Ro-BIN-son, for having misspelled his name. I really should proof read these things more carefully before they go out. As per my private conversation with him, my scribe now walks with a limp.

Let's begin with Private Warrior - who are you? You sling accusations at an academy that's been established since 1984, operating in full view of the public - you had better have your facts straight. And in order to make those accusations, you'd better be someone of prominence yourself. Otherwise, wh