Martial Arts Gathering 2007. [Archive] - Page 2

Hendrik

05-03-2007, 05:55 PM

Eric Siheng,

Hahahaha.

Great Clips.
The mother DNA is still there with all these Elderly.

Continuing our topic of DNAs, I think this next clip should be of interest to you.

Por Suk talking about some building blocks of Cho Gar WC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxQz4rJqpvg

Sorry, conversation is part Mandarin/part Cantonese….----------

1,

Kuit Said,

揎蓋挑疊常要用

Hahaha, I have been waiting for SEA to do this for years.
I was disappointed that the Chapter of the book Complete WC doesnt show it and doesnt have it.

2,

The palm and finger spear is still hard and close to

.永春白鶴拳以 " 寸勁節力 " 見稱，能集中全身之力，於一剎那間發出，達到最好的持擊效果。要求力從胸起如雷從地發，蓄於身腰，發於臂手。........

I am also waiting for

吞吐浮沉...揎蓋挑疊...升降開合..... 形,勢,气脉...
and 峨嵋十二庄's Snake slide Worm moves.. to come out.

otherwise, we lost Yik Kam's dance path. hahahaha.

my Yik Kam dream : fajing, sticking close body snake recoil reel, sickle cut, boomerang with elegantly.... hehehehe. Click on dance in the following site. and that is what my dream looks like. hahahahaha
http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1808590078/trailer

And Dr. Hendrik, you cannot get out of Zhiang Hu…...last I check it’s a little like Hotel California.
You can check out anytime you like but you can’t never leave ….. now where is my Strato …..--------

As a librarian,

I read about
http://www.lannyland.com/wanderer/music/xiaoao.htm

My favorite is Dong Fang Bu Bai with his needle as weapon, that is Yik Kam' dance. hahaha

So, there is no Zhiang Hu for me but I day dream alots. :D:D:D
Hope that I dont turn into Dong Fang Bu Bai.

Warmest Regards.

Eric (slow hands) Ling …. Hehehehe….:cool: :cool: :cool:

And Bro, you’re spot on right… missing 0.5 point… high hand indeed …..:) --------

I am just a librarian, not high and you are my siheng not slow. :D

Your half point.
半点子午定太平

To those who always question about who is and who is not a spokeman....etc. well, IMHO. it has nothing to do with the title or position. it is about Do one know what one is talking about and can one do it? the rest doesnt matter.

As a librarian, I have seen what I see. so, I know. So I could speak as a librarian. and hope that all the Cho family decendent know the Story to aids thier training directions. hahahaha.

My next quest is to see how Dong Fang Bu Bai's art work.

Best Regards
Hendrik

Vajramusti

05-03-2007, 10:09 PM

What a delightful surprise seeing a clip of Guru Narayanswamy's silambatan.
You are doing an unselfish and a great job.
There have been different waves of Indian influences including martial arts in various parts of South east asia.
From his name the guru sounds Tamil and is doing a south Indian art.
How I wish I could be at your September gathering. Unfortunately- doesnt look like I can.

joy chaudhuri

Shadow_warrior8

05-04-2007, 12:40 PM

Its all good.
I wanna be like what is said, I am in the world, but not of the world.
Lots of positive energy to everyone :)

Eric Ling

05-04-2007, 02:03 PM

Hi everybody,

Bro Hendrik, what a grand proclamation; using 0.5 point to decide “Grand Peace” ….

Bro Bertrand, your message (the "world" thingy) is si-peh cheem – catch no ball! The royal decree now is to keep messages simple for undemanding understanding and no more esoteric spinning curveballs….

Got so much work in front of me and I thought I post as many clips as possible before the tidal waves start.

Clip # 1 : Singapore Kong Chow Hui Koon’s Hung Gar. Like I described one of my preceding messages; love the way they keep everything so traditional; from the koon to the kung fu. My cup of tea ….yam seng!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPt1FLtrvg8

Clip # 2 : Singapore Hong Sheng Koon Choy Li Fut. I am so grateful that GM Chia Yan Soon arranged for this video session. Also appearing in the clip is Master Woon Tai Sam or Michael. I am a big fan of Master Woon; in my teenager days, I remember reading about him in some CKF magazines. He was famous for being the 3-time sparring champion in the Singapore National Pugilistic Tournament. GM Chai even did a Daoist slow form for the camera; never knew CLF does form like this. Just goes to show how little I actually know CKF…..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDjlKuTVIeo

Got some more stuffs to put up but I need to take a short break … all Kung Fu and no Carlsberg makes Eric a very dull man …….

Warmest Regards.

Eric

Ps Joy, MahaGuru Samy speaks little English, mainly Malay. I speak virtually zero Malay so we were letting the sticks do all the rapping ….

Maybe they got it wrong; MAs is the true universal language.. that and Carlsberg of course….

Shadow_warrior8

05-04-2007, 02:37 PM

Hey bro,
Great vids as usual.
Just a verse from the bible. Keeps me centred lah.
Carlsberg?? Hey maybe they can be sponsors or tiger beer. I have contacts because I used to run a pub and set up a few as part of work.

Positive energy to everyone. :)

Eric Ling

05-04-2007, 03:28 PM

Ooookay, got to squeeze in 2 more clips before I take the weekends off ….

Both are from my Zhou Jia or Chow Gar family….

First one is shot in Penang on a rainy night with wet floor; this Chow Gar brother did his “Hok Kuen” or “Crane Fist”. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty7uTi20kLY

The second clip is really something; my Sibagong Lee Kam Yuen, his daughter Ivy (doing the spear in the clip) and Sifu Royce Ang went through quite a bit of troubles to arrange for a group of students to perform for the camera. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pDc7ocvdv4

What can I say? I LOVE my Chow Gar family.. they are soooo supportive of everything that I do ….:) :) :)

Errrrrhhh, before I forget, the last time I posted Zhou Jia clips someone commented that the “salutation” is “wrong”.

Well bro, not “wrong” but “different”. Singapore and Malaysia Zhou Jia are offspring of the late Grand Master Lee Kuan.

Besides Zhou Jia, GM Lee also did other styles of kung fu. The salutation reflects that….

Now I am ready for my break.

Warmest Regards.

Eric

Bro Bertrand … Tiger? Can talk lah if you can open door one .. will be going back to Sing in June, this time must meet and talk co$k … so many things …:D :D :D

But seriously, I like to hang out at “Crazy Elephant” .. you dig that neighborhood ?

Hendrik

05-05-2007, 03:04 AM

Hi everybody,

Bro Hendrik, what a grand proclamation; using 0.5 point to decide “Grand Peace” ….
.

Here is where it leads to.

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=105

It is really GRAND because it is about the first Opera performers uprising in Chinese 5000 Years history and one of the leader is Lee Man Mau, a White Crane decendent....

and Tai Ping Heavenly Kingdom evolved...

Peace
Hendrik

byond1

05-05-2007, 03:33 AM

Hi Brothers,

The Year of the Pig is under full swing. Many great CMA have surfaced. And im very proud to be a part of this time in our History.Something i would like to share with everyone.

For those who dont know Cheung Way Boe is one of the oldest living links to the Red Boat WCK method. If Opera Star Yik kam is counted as 1st generation, Cho Shun 2nd, Sam Chan 3rd , making Cheung Way Boe 4th.
Making him the same generation as Sum Nung Sigung, and IMO, is a living treasure of WCK. The only other master still alive, of the 4th generation WCK other than Cheung Way Boe, is Fung Chun from Kulo Village, that i have been able to find, via my research with the AWCKRI.

Its very important, to do our best, to preserve the teachings of this last great, 4th generation. Sum Nung, Fung Chun, Cheung Way Boe, Wong Jing, Cho On, Cho Chuen, Yip Man, Yiu Choi, and Honorary member Pan Nam (Who had at least 5 WCK teachers making it imposible to say for sure his generation), were the last generation to preserve the old traditions. The key to WCKs future, is contained within its past, IMO.

With the 5th generation, there has been the greatest amount of bifurcation and Localized evolution(HS term) in our families history. H.K WCK is spread out over about 30 differant branchs. Cho Gar and Kulo village WCK each have about 6 0r 7 main branchs, that im aware of. YKS has several versions, including Sub Branchs like Cheung Bo family and Mai Gai Wong. We must tread very very carefully, or loose who and what we are.

We must all do our best to preserve what we still can, as well as make sure its implimented in our training, as well as help others who seek it. This can only be done via Open Hearts, and Open Sharing. Its also important to undestand if someones methods are differant than yours, that means they are "Differant" not "Wrong".

My belief is the system itself will teach us. The concepts and principles of the system, as well as Ging Faat , will be our criterion. People can say whatever they want, but if the system itself contradicts them, than as my grandmother always said "the proof is in the pudding".
I also think if Opera WCK clan, learns about the Weng chun County White Crane Parent, we can learn more about who and what we are. Thus helping empower us to know where we are going. In addition to this, once we clearly define what is or isnt the White Crane components in WCK, we can than see, with clear perception, what is the "Sai Ying Faat" of WCK. Thus the system teachs us.

I think it very appropriate that a White crane brother, would be the one to help unearth, so much knowledge for the WCK clan. Making Eric more of a "Big Uncle", than Big Brother to us::)). Thanks for all your efforts Eric. Its appreciated by many.

B

byond1

05-05-2007, 03:38 AM

2 pics of young Cheung Way Boe.

B

Hendrik

05-05-2007, 04:03 AM

For those who dont know Cheung Way Boe is one of the oldest living links to the Red Boat WCK method. If Opera Star Yik kam is counted as 1st generation, Cho Shun 2nd, Sam Chan 3rd , making Cheung Way Boe 4th.
Making him the same generation as Sum Nung Sigung, and IMO, is a living treasure of WCK. The only other master still alive, of the 4th generation WCK other than Cheung Way Boe, is Fung Chun from Kulo Village, that i have been able to find, via my research with the AWCKRI.

Its very important, to do our best, to preserve the teachings of this last great, 4th generation. Sum Nung, Fung Chun, Cheung Way Boe, Wong Jing, Cho On, Cho Chuen, Yip Man, Yiu Choi, and Honorary member Pan Nam (Who had at least 5 WCK teachers making it imposible to say for sure his generation), were the last generation to preserve the old traditions. The key to WCKs future, is contained within its past, IMO.

With the 5th generation, there has been the greatest amount of bifurcation and Localized evolution(HS term) in our families history. H.K WCK is spread out over about 30 differant branchs. Cho Gar......------

Real life has different faces...

In other lineages, I would not be able to comment. In Yik Kam linage, I have learned that Generation certainly means something.

However,

In the history of Cho family of past 150years, there were a few cases of by passing one's sifu generation and asking older generation to take them as student to gain generation position and title advantage and not much contribute to the art. That is a part of facts.

and, some in the family believe, it is more important to go by book. Whoever know and practice according to the Kuen Kuit and perform as the kuen kuit could speak for the art and has no different whether it is at Yik Kam's era or in 2070, first generation or 15th generation. As soon as the Kuit is preserve and the internal training still exist in this world. there is no time limitation no position, title, generation limitation.

It is the insight and or the attainment of the Yik Kam's art which is much much more valuable then the title and position or generation. Eventhough we respect generation, title, and position. For without technology, the is no art left and title is meaningless. and only those who has technology could stand firm in what they talk about. Until one knows the details and handling, terms and stanzas means nothing but surface.

As it was said, Learning has no senior or junior those who has mastered the art is the teacher.

The art of Yik Kam is not in the oldest SLT set of the lineage, nor how many sets one collected, not in the Kuen Kuit, and neither is in the Training, not to mention any fragmented slogan. But, in the ability to resonance with the nature; and that one need to know internal art to get there. Unless one has the transmission, one would not likely to get there.

Saying the above, who would like to share the activation of the Snake or even go further into the 4 subtle natural resonance of the Yik Kam's SLT? for it is a must for the Yik Kam's art and that is the next level after the introduction. Go internal and wouldnt turn back. Yes, Internal art needed and HRV and EEG could be used as good tools. We could do it with ancient archemy and modern technology... it is an era of MatriX.

Eric siheng, since you saw some of the Snake practice from Por Suk, I am waiting your sharing. hahahaha , it is great that more and more things surfaces.

Cant escape Emei 12 Zhuang. hahahaha :D

Peace

Gru Bianca

05-05-2007, 06:29 AM

Hi Eric,

interesting clip of GM Chai and his "Daoist" slow form,......;)

Seems very strange to me that at expert eyes as yours did escape the similarity of those movements with something related to Tibetan White Crane, or it didn't.....?;) :D

Be Well and enjoy your stay at your birth place :)

Regards,

Luca

Hendrik

05-05-2007, 06:36 AM

Can I ask? What is the front hand movement you mention?
As you mention the 0.5 point is the end stance?

You sure can ask, but I might not answer. hahaha

0.5 is not the end stance. 0.5 is everywhere.

that is the uniqueness of the Yik Kam's pole. and that issuing of the 0.5 link to the front hand..... IMHO

it is pole within pole similar to those in the martial art movie, sword within sword.

as it said in the martial art novel of Ku Long, the 13th sword of Yan 13 actually has 14th sword.....

Same with hand same with Jing same with pole... sword within sword... strike within strike... arrow within sleeve....

Dream Shadow, Dream, get into Alfa and only then one will meet....

Shadow_warrior8

05-05-2007, 07:09 AM

Great sharing from everyone. Thanks. Learning still learning. :)
Love the clip "Hay Pun" Wing Chun.
Really has the old flavour of traditional martial arts.

Eric Ling

05-05-2007, 10:54 AM

Aaarrrrggghhhh, I knew it; should have stayed away from my work station …..

Anyway …..

Bro Brian, please I am just a “librarian” like Hendrik; nothing more nothing less. Love all traditional arts and working towards preserving them the ways the Masters handed them down. Don’t get me wrong, got nothing against “evolution” or “innovation”; just not my area of interest ….. Like Hendrik said, everything is in the “kuit”.

So not “big uncle” just “brother”. Personally my stand is, the less you share, the more you allow all sorts of bull excretions to pass off as authentic traditional knowledge. And Robert (Mantis108) is so right; sometimes we just got to defend the memories of the great Masters who did so much for the arts.

Which bring me to my next point; I browsed your site sometime back and found a piece written on “White Crane”..

A piece of brotherly advice; verify that article …..More likely to be about “White Duck” than “White Crane”.:eek: :eek: :eek:

The 2 pics you attached showing a young “Por Suk”; I got an entire collection of those photos of Por Suk, his Sifu and kung fu brothers. I am working on a clip to feature these. Absolutely brilliant pics of Por Suk and his art.

Bro Hendrik, yes I tasted the “snake” and was wondering how the world could have missed this? In Cho Gar, I think, the snake is maintained in pristine conditions and when playing with Por Suk, it’s the snake that caught me most of the time.

I will be posting the snake soon.

Luca, yes it did crossed my mind when watching GM Chia did the form. Later I found out that his form was more training “tendons” and “chi”. Watch the form again and see how the legs stay put and the body twists to stretch …. Yoga in motion ….

Got some exciting news; Penang called last night to say that Por Suk,GM Cheong Chen Loong and GM Li To Sheng all want to see me again to talk about working closer together… so packing my travel bags again …..

Brian, in this instance, I feel more like a kung fu toddler …. Hahahaha…. Maybe I should join Hendrik in that boat to play the er-hu and forget jiang hu ….

And you are 100% right, Por Suk and Master Ku Choy Wah are living treasures of Cho Gar Kung Fu … I have nothing but the highest respect for them…

Now the onus is on this generation to protect the knowledge of these treasures … the proof is in the pudding indeed.

Or like we say around here, all it takes is one move and it will be clear …

Warmest Regards Brothers ….

Eric

Shadow_warrior8

05-05-2007, 02:23 PM

Eric Ling

05-05-2007, 05:47 PM

Hi everybody,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGUQl23frIk

Clip using old photos given by GM Cheong; you’ll see his late Sifu San Chan, kung fu brothers and a pic taken outside “Dong Onn Hui Koon”.

I was told that this clan association used to conduct many different kung fu training. Aim to find out more from Por Suk when I see him next.

So far, I have seen him do Cho Gar Wing Chun, Mok Gar Kuen and even Chan Gar Kwon and something tells me he got more tricks up his sleeves….

Well like I mentioned in my earlier message, I will be meeting with him and some other Masters again very soon to talk about projects we discussed earlier.

Bro Bertrand, yes we should all pool our resources to get the job done. So much is lost already and we should get off our butts and do something.

That’s why I think bickering is overt waste of time and energies…put them to good use ….

Ooops. now I am sounding like a “uncle”….

Where is my youth (Carlsberg) elixir?

Warmest Regards.

Eric

errrhhh, look at the pics closer; I see snake here, snake there and everywhere snake snake snake ......

byond1

05-06-2007, 04:59 AM

Hi Brothers,

Snake is 50% of the deal, with WCK. It is of core importance to YKS WCK, and Imperial Constable Fok Bo Chuen, Yuen Kay Shans first Sifu, was known to have placed great focus on it. The clip Eric posted of Mak Yiu Ming Sifu, performing the Sai Ying Sau is the best example publicaly i can think of, other than perhaps Wong Nim Yi clips that frequent youtube.

Eric - Another great job. Nice seeing the photo sequence of Cheung Way Boe.

Shadow - Half Point is important to the overall approach of Opera WCK, in my understanding, Not just to the Gwun Faat. Its "Power" is invisible the way its applied, as it can be delivered from any other Ging, always hidden within. "Chuen Cheung" might be a way of explaining it, but i woudnt choose to limit my use of the Half Point to just "Spearing". Though Spearing is a way Boon Dim can be applied and manefested, just like with a Tan Sau, you can "Ding Jeung" or "Chuen Cheung Tze", but in my understanding and opinion its in no way limited to that.

Hendrik - when you say "there were a few cases of by passing one's sifu generation and asking older generation to take them as student to gain generation position and title advantage" - I agree, but tend to think there was more than a "few Cases".
But that still puts them closer to the source. The material of the 3rd generation, would have a more...pure representation of the art, than say someone from the 6th generation. So really its not important if someone leap frogged. Whats important is they are closer to the source, and can help us all see, what ancestral WCK was. This wont always be the case though, as if someone is closer to the source, and doesnt practise it or understand it correctly, it amounts to nothing.

Your opinion on "Sticking to the book" has merrit, but is also limited, IMO. Many who dont truly know the art, do not have the proper referance point, to interpret the Kuen Kuit, and so makes their interpretation not accurate. Or those you use other arts like Tai Chi, as a base for referance, would inaccuratly interpret WCK Kuen Kuit. So they wouldnt be helpfull. You need some one qualified to interpret the Kuen Kuit.
To truly "Know" the art you need a multi dimensional approach, IMO. You need to first know the system proper, which includes the Concepts, Princples and Ging Faat, as well as the Kuen Kuit or the writings of the ancestors. You need to practise and actually use it and be able to apply it. You than need to experiance and learn from Kung Fu Uncles, to get a more well rounded understanding of ones particular branch. Than one needs to step outside ones branch of thesystem, Imo, and investigate other old WCK methods, comparing and contrasting, finding the material that overlaps, ect. This will lead one to feel the essence of the system. Most of the greats of the 4th and 5th generation have done this.

BUt i think always, the system proper, concepts, princples, and Kuen Kuit are our standard. They are our referance point and criterion. So peoples "opinions" are of less importance than what the system tells us. We only have to be carefull to not let our Ego mind interpret the system, which would simply be forming more "opinion"

I do agree with you fully, that- who can do it - is master, not -who is senior in the family. But many times he who is senior is the master, as they can do it, and they have a closer link to the information of the system, needed for mastery. And many times the people who dont practise and actually know the system fade away into obscurity, while others remain 30 years later, to tell the tale and pass on the information.

Shadow_warrior8

05-06-2007, 03:19 PM

Thanks for pics of Masters Bok, Saam Chan, Bros.

And explainations of the half point. I must find that martial art novel of Ku Long.

"that is the uniqueness of the Yik Kam's pole. and that issuing of the 0.5 link to the front hand. It is pole within pole similar to those in the martial art movie, sword within sword"

Love the pics. Old style, makes a perfect dream. Yes snake everywhere.
Give me a tiger, and I will start dreaming a story of the old ways. Tiger and snake after 2 jugs too....hahahhahahahaha...

Bro Eric, I bet going to penang and talking to the masters gives a great feel of the old ways of training huh? Great work

Hendrik

05-07-2007, 04:22 AM

And explainations of the half point. I must find that martial art novel of Ku Long.

"that is the uniqueness of the Yik Kam's pole. and that issuing of the 0.5 link to the front hand. It is pole within pole similar to those in the martial art movie, sword within sword"

A word of caution is to not missed the finger for the moon,

My advise is dont use intelect to think.
Go the easiest and direct path, ask you sifu to show you.

That is the reason we all need to Bai Si, to learn things, to take years or decades to cultivate.

Until then, one doesnt have the level to even chat.

you might think I am errogant to say this. HOwever, it is a fact. these stuffs are not book reading stuffs, not intellect stuffs. It is about cultivation...

I am not explain it more to avoid people take what I post and think they know it. or collect them in a web and reading them thinking they know what I know. That is a misleading.

as the Buddha warn his student, Anada " you talk about this and that herbs every day, however, when you saw one you couldnt even be able to make the simplest differentiation among them."

There are level and level of knowing and realization need to be attained. otherwise, it is hopeless.

Very simple example, people talk about this JIng and that Jing and lots of ideas ... But you know what? take a look at these people, how many knows the chest structure needed for the lungs to work properly. for those who dont know the Nature of the chest and lungs, they sure could make lots and lots of ideas and intepretation....etc. However, will those stuffs work under microscope? get the Kung fu not the tounge fu as I always warn by Gm Cho Hong-Choy.

So, the simplest way is asked the sifu.

It is all about transmission. I am presenting here on what exist but to know it one really needs to Bai Si. that is an honest word, not errogant one because if one is not the inner cycle one simply dont know.

and

BTW, I dont believe in Preserve the art because Preserve implied the thing or art has DEAD.
I believe in activate the art or atleast be able to synthesis the part of the art one is inherited.
I dont believe in collecting information and write a book. That is important, certainly. However, the real mastering is from cultivation and know the details.

To be real honest, using the intellect to Inteprete is already shows one lack of kung fu. Those who knows the art could scan and read if one knows or one simply playing intellect mind speculation. That we need to avoid, if we would like to have the art alive. and for the Yik Kam lineage, by just observing the first few move in the first section of SLT, that will show how is one's kung fu... So I rather encourage everyone to cultivate and trully master the art then using intellect to inteprete and argue or create more chaos and gray area for the future generation.

You dont need intellect explaination. You need to know and master it, since you are a decendent of Yik Kam and have access to your sifu.

peace

Shadow_warrior8

05-07-2007, 11:21 AM

Thanks for your sharing.

Sifu showed me the pole a long time back. But interesting to see different interpretations of it via youtube, Master Cheong, and the forum by yourself and Bro Brian.

P/s I keep forum/internet and personal life very seperate. People that know me, know why. Eric Bro, this is my statement hey? I am in the world, but not of the world. Hahahahahahahahah

Hendrik

05-07-2007, 05:24 PM

But interesting to see different interpretations of it .....

IMHO,

If I may suggest again the last time, Interpretation is for those who use intellect explanaition.

In the reality there is no interpretation but manifestation according to one's characteristics based on the proper transmission of the art.

without the proper transmission and training, intellect intepretation is off the mark. Kung fu is not a literature reading that everyone give thier two cents after read the article and have infinity of interpretation or wishfull thinking. and before one knows one become a pioner in the subject. and everyone boost everyone in the forum as a master as we could see it in the web era alots.

Kung fu is very specific, thus, one needs the lineage/technology/process transmission, or else one is doing something else.

IMHO, talking about intepretation is one of the worst trap in this era for CMA. that is because everyone read an article of the art and jump to think they know it and free to inteprete thier way as how they think (notice "how they think" not how they attain) . and infact, one dont even know how to ask proper questions if one is not there or have entering the room as in the old chinese saying. So, yes, there are ways of proper view, proper questions asking, proper discussion on the art which is not intepretation. and by observing these proper, one knows where one is.

As my sifu, late Zen patriach said, " cultivation is not smoking optium, it is not about day dreaming into dellusion, get high fast, and lost it". Thus, Intepretation is a trap for we all. which we all has to watch out.

peace

Gru Bianca

05-07-2007, 06:24 PM

Hi Eric,

I hope you can receive PM cause I've just sent you one. I've something to ask which is not related to your gathering so I thought to send you a PM.

Regards,

Luca

Eric Ling

05-07-2007, 07:53 PM

Hi everybody,

Tsk tsk tsk …. Words words words….

Firstly, Bertrand Bro, still don’t get your world this world that. Make up your mind, are you in or not; no half half …. Eerrrh no good been cleaved out like that…but I hear that they got pretty good medication for condition like that ……

Bro Hendrik, now you got me spinning. To preserve, to me at least, is to keep it alive … I think that is to avert death …

To you, preserving is “bad” because you’re keeping it “dead” ….

But bro, I see you quoting from kuit and saying that it must not be “interpreted” but kept to the letters (or strokes if your kuit is in Chinese) …. Eerrrhh pardon moi , isn’t that your definition of “death” ?

Maybe, just maybe, we are all blind men feeling the big elephant like in that kiddy story I used to hear …

Still I blame it on words …

Got another clip here:- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7exQZ1UeL9w

Ban Chung Wing Chun from Cho Gar village in China taken from the DVD generously given by Master Ku Choy Wah.

Well, I watched the entire DVD several times now and I must say that I am impressed by the range of styles that they kept intact in Cho Gar.

Enjoy…

Luca, read your PM;what are you looking for ?

Warmest Regards.

Eric

Ps Actually I was alternating between Cho Gar and Neil Young’s “Heart Of Gold” over the weekends … “old man take a look at my life, I’m a lot like you were…..”

Hendrik

05-07-2007, 08:35 PM

Bro Eric,

Bro Hendrik, now you got me spinning. To preserve, to me at least, is to keep it alive … I think that is to avert death …

To you, preserving is “bad” because you’re keeping it “dead” …. ---------- E

I dont think it is good or bad but they are different. and when we need to go to another level of depth. I would say, a clear definition is needed. Chinese Martial art suffer alots, IMHO, due to non clear definition in the past 100 years where the classical chinese language of thousand of years die of.

As we know, Confusious concept is - Xing Cueh Seh , Gee Mia Kuo -- or let the terminate era be evoke and live, continous on the extinc country/culture. That is the Confusious way.

IMHO, if you think about Fruit, preserve Fruit is no longer has life. and its taste will change via the artificial preservative or chemical.

also, whatever in the museum, is over. Actually, I learn this from a Profesor of Boston University, he told me, the Nasa museum is dead stuff not lifely. ..

whatever in the Museum is no longer satisfied the Chinese "Xing Cueh Seh , Gee Mia Kuo" idea, because it becomes an exhibit and no longer will grow.

But bro, I see you quoting from kuit and saying that it must not be “interpreted” but kept to the letters (or strokes if your kuit is in Chinese) …. Eerrrhh pardon moi , isn’t that your definition of “death” ? -------- E

IMHO, there is a different between qouting the Kuin kuit of a move as a chinese literature compare with describing the essence or the life of that move.

Death is those who qout the Kuen kuit wihout know the essence or the life of that move.

For example, people these days talk about sing qi to dan dien and issue the strike from heart. and what are those stuffs?

are those stuffs something one think about?
or those stuffs are reality which one describe what it is without need to think?

if it is something one think, then everyone's 2 cents is the truth, however, could all the great opinion what one think used to systhesis and manifest ?

If it is something one describe, then, it is already there Real and alive. No need to think.

another example is the Popular Taiji Classical. everyone who get hold of it will say, the root is on the feet, issue from the tigh....... show up at .. Using yee to lead the Qi, using Qi to transport the physical body... it is in the Yee not in the Qi, with Qi will cause stagnation.....

and ask ourself, how many really know what we are talking about and how many will be able to synthesis what was written?

Those are what I mean.

Thus, Classical must not be studied as chinese literature. IMHO. instead one needs to have the process which enable one to be able to synthesis or reproduce the phenomenon. and this synthesis process most of the time is lost in generation of transmission via accident or purposely not passed down to guard one's superiority against incase betrayal within the lineage. and IMHO, we need to face these honestly.

Maybe, just maybe, we are all blind men feeling the big elephant like in that kiddy story I used to hear …------------- E

IMHO, the more I learn from the senior master, the more I convince there is no blindmen, it is just we think too much and not willing to open our eyes's blind and see. and also , some core of the transmission has lost. so we need to admit that.

Still I blame it on words … ------ E

IMHO, I dont blame on words nor anyone these days, It is just there are a part of reality that we dont aware. that get us into trouble. since you are passionate to help the CMA in SEA, here I am open this can of worm so that more could be preserved since now we know, there is a deeper layer of the story about the ancient technology. IMHO

As it said, if we could see what other could not, then we could do what others think is impossible.

I brought this intepretation stuffs up because it could make a different between 1 day of training to 10 years if one not aware of what is going on.

One could have all the sets, doing all the post, but one just couldnot enter the room because one could not realized. That we could avoid if we could see what is the trap.

also
That is the reason I brought in EEG and HRV. because we need to get rid of a big part of Thinking. and these machines could help if we are willing.

See, for example, the snake of Yik Kam SLT, until one experience it one cant imagine or inteprete because one just dont know. since you have taste some, you can actually make an experiment for you self, ask the Yik Kam decendent in Singapore or elsewhele to describe the snake, see how will it turn out? one key question is asking them how they handle thier toso or trunk. that will set a different between Think and describe. Check thier tosor or trunk movements, are they move accord to thier words or the idea is one thing and the body move differently? are they describing or are they intepretating, that is simple to verify. IMHO. and ofcorse, if Miu Shun or Yik Kam himself describing the art it will be very clear, precise, and concise.

So, preserving the kuit without the transmission also is similar to preserve the set without the soul, or having the car but without the engine, not to mention could not turn on the enginee.

however, I must agree that when there is not much left, with the kuit atleast we could still have a chance, if we could trace out the mother art .. so, that is still important.

just my two librarian cents. thus I have heard from the old timers. Just a parot and librarian hendrik. hahahaha

Best Regards
Hendrik

Gru Bianca

05-08-2007, 05:54 AM

Hi,

I've sent you another PM.

Thanks.

Regards,

Luca

Hendrik

05-08-2007, 09:04 AM

Got another clip here:- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7exQZ1UeL9w

A while ago, I was commenting on a Siu Niem Tau set. and, to comment on others but not my own lineage, that will be not a propriate if I stand on the stand that it is purely technical and in neutral ground but technical.

Here, IMHO

I would like to comment that, I was disappointed with the performance.

Go by book, the practitioner of this clip has violated the basic of Yik Kam's SLT kuen kuit.

further more, When the Kuen kuit said, " focus the attention on the finger, claw, and side under the sleeve" he is looking side way with a scattered attention. not to mention his breath handling is holding instead of flow. thus, one cant pass the HRV and EEG if one is hooked to one.

I would like to encourage others who do the same kind of pratice as this young man to investigate and somedays become great expert and master of the Yik Kam art. However, I must said, more effort must be applied, for Kung fu comes from details investigation and observation, accompanion with lots of sweating.

I choose to post my critics here with a heart of I love all these young people.
However, if nothing said here, then the uniqueness of Yik Kam, the mai san chiim, the energetic water sleeve , the snake will not be able to be cultivate. Those are the standard barr one needs to pass to enter the room of Yik Kam.

Just my usual two cents from a librarian. and no one has to take my words if you dont like it.

Best Regards

PS. Eric Brother, IMHO, this is the issue with Kuit as I mention above. often we could recite everything well however we dont walk the talk.....

Thus, IMHHHHHO, in CMA, IMHO, it is about restore instead of preserve. but then honest true words are always bitter so we all dont like it and it is very painfull to face the reality of what is missing some times.

time for a song of Xiao Ao Jian Hu
http://persiana.persiangig.com/audio/XAJH/01%20-%20Liu%20Huan%20-%20Wang%20Fei%20-%20Xiao%20Ao%20Jiang%20Hu.mp3
http://persiana.persiangig.com/audio/XAJH/02%20-%20Song%20Zu%20Ying%20-%20Tian%20Di%20Zuo%20He.mp3

Eric Ling

05-08-2007, 11:49 AM

Hendrik

05-08-2007, 05:39 PM

Bro Hendrik,

I am not Wing Chun much less your Cho Gar’s lineage..

So I don’t really get what you are trying to say …

Before I post anymore Cho Gar’s clip, could you show me how it’s supposed to be done according to the kuit.

In fact, when I think about it, I have never seen you in action at all; don’t even know what you look like..

So bro, indulge me, a short clip of you doing some Cho Gar and maybe this slow learner will learn something.

Warmest Regards.

Eric

Dear Bro Eric,

oops, I must be post too much and get myself into trouble. :D

As for how things suppose to be done with kuit, I propose the clip which you shared on por suk is doing his pole is a great exhibit. That is a better reference then me doing it. (Since I am just a librarian. no more and no less. honest, and direct). as for my clip, There are some clip of me doing SLT first section in WCK seminal flowing around which I think Rene might have it. But, I would not use that as a reference because I am just a librarian.

one thing I would like to say is that how is things suppose to be done with kuit is actually not that visible most of the time, eventhought one might be able to sense a different, however, how are we going to observe into the mind and breathing? , that is the reason I brought up EEG and HRV, it is that that level we could start to identify the components different IMHO.

Furthermore, IMHO, there is a different between doing Cho Gar today and Doing Yik Kam lineage because localization evolution does indeed take place in reality. As a librarian, I wont use myself as an action reference. I think better model for Yik Kam and Cho Gar are Por Suk and Sifu Ku. and certainly not me.

Best Regards
Hendrik

Eric Ling

05-08-2007, 06:30 PM

Dear Bro Hendrik,

Don’t read too much into my message; I am not challenging you or belittling anything that you have described.

For me, as a lifelong student, I am always curious, always probing and asking stupid questions…

I meet any Master and I do the same. After all the theories and doctrines, I like to touch hands; just to get a firsthand feel of what’s being described.

You spoke about my Sibak , Huang Xin Xian, in one of your messages and I got to tell you that as a kid in Singapore learning Whooping Crane, I had many opportunities to “push-hands” with him. Those encounters are priceless in my discovery of the essence of Whooping Crane.

Forums are really nothing more than “discussing swords on Hua San” and I want to be careful with what I say especially when dealing with something beyond the realm of personal experience.

I look at that form and I think he’s alright using the measures that I use.

To you, an insider, things might be different and that why I ask to see your version; more to try and understand how you gauge.

If I were to post Cho Gar’s CLF, I think many red flags would be raised by CLF high hands in this forum. Cho Gar’s CLF is so unusual …..

I could say the same about their Fu-Hok, Mok Gar etc etc….

Warmest Regards.

Eric

Bro, I noticed you write beautifully in your articles elsewhere, why are you so “patchy” here? Now I am getting personal hahahaha….:D :D :D

Jim Roselando

05-08-2007, 06:56 PM

Hello Eric,

I promise myself not to post for a while but I thought I might be able to help out with translating Hendrik's discussion. :)

Hendrik teaches a very specific Internal cultivation and Body dynamics with his Wing Chun. Which were Zheng Qi flow thru 8 meridian, dynamic equilibrium & stillness. This stuff is simple but specific. Very simple actually. If you notice Hendrik is not very interested in discussing "techniques" as we all have similar stuff but he does feel this stuff is the Nucleus of Yik Kam teaching and without it there is no point to all the other stuff.

If you look at the footage being presented with the Cho's and Uncle Por Suk. Watch Cho China or Uncle Por Suk do Siu Lin Tau. There certainly is localization evolotion. Its not about being the Original or some Form that must be done exactly this or that way but rather a State of Attainment in the body that represents the nature of the teaching. Know what i mean or am trying to say?

I visit Hendrik to study his Inside stuff and body dynamics. Never once did he tell me:

Jim, you need this form from Yik Kam or you need to do this set because its older and lcoser to the source. He always maintained that its not the form, forms or loose hands design that is important but rather the Cultivation and Dynamics.

This is not meant to be disrespectful to the great performances but help clear up what I feel hendrik is trying to convey.

Much thanks for sharing!

Back to lurk mode.

:cool:

PTNK

05-09-2007, 04:00 AM

Dear Eric,

Thanks for putting up all these great clips!!! They are definitely traditional Chinese Martial Arts that need to be preserved. :) :) :)

Perhaps, you might want to obtain Hendrick's Sil Lim Tao to show the world so that we know what he is talking about. He is always quoting from the Yik Kam's Kuen Kuit and who knows, maybe he is pulling a fast one on everyone of us. Or maybe, he has been discussing so many things in forums and collating ideas from people over the years (he is a librarian, remember???) and making up his so call kuen kuit. Or maybe, the Sil Lim Tao has five sections and he only learned four.:eek: :eek: :eek:

Those who love traditional Chinese Martial Arts would appreciate your effort. Many people including me would agree that Hendrick is living in his own fantasy and should be ignored. He has never produce any proof of his Cho Ga lineage. Can he produce evidence that he had been to Cho Ga in China? If he is serious in tracing the Cho Ga DNA, he should have check out Cho Ga village in China first. He is just an empty vessel and playing around with our mind.

Hendrick, I challenge you to prove me wrong. Show us that you have been to the Cho Ga village to trace your lineage if you are really from Cho Ga. Otherwise, choose to dwell in your own fantasy and keep quiet. :p :p :p :p

byond1

05-09-2007, 05:13 AM

Hi brothers,

What i think is extremly important is to pay attention to several things in all the great clips Eric has shared. The Cho Gar WCK isnt performed as an internal system. Poon Yu village, which is the home of Cho Gar, performs their method with a harder Ging, than what would be considered "Internal".
We can see also by looking at Cho On desendent Ku Choi Wah Sifu, and Sam Chan Desendent Cheung Way Boe Sifu, that their approach isnt simply "Internal". In fact all 3 approachs to Cho Gar, have a similar flavor to how Sum Nung expresses his WCK. There are differances for sure, but small differances, large same. I think most of the differances are due to Cho Gar having CLF influence, and YKS having influence from other systems. Remember my Grandmas words - "Proof is in the pudding"

WCK, imo, ancestraly wasnt an internal system. As i have stated before, WCK , in my understanding, based on my reseach, is a hybred style, that fuses external and internal methods. It has characteristics of both. Hence many will relate to one aspect more than the other, and only see that one side. But that is truly limiting dichotomy. As you need the fusion of both. You need the Snake and the Crane to truly practise WCK.

People online can say anything they want, but the "Proof is in the puddy". How someone moves in videos tells alot about them. Online its easy to hide behind words, but in video or in person, its impossible. There is only truth. Hence many run from Real time encounters, as they want to avoid the truth. Sad.

Brian

PTNK

05-09-2007, 05:55 AM

Dear kungfu brothers,

from what I know, Cho Ga system and other wingchun systems do not have 'internal system'. GM Sum Nung brought in his kidney exercising method as an additional practice but this is still not wing chun. The crane in wingchun represents the harder style while the snake is the softer approach. By combining both, it would balance the art.

I have not heard of Cho Ga having an internal system. Neither the 'Emei 12 or 13 zhuang' recorded in Cho Ga's system and record. If you study carefully, Emei's martial arts have no resemblance with wingchun at all. Wingchun, however, is closely rooted to the crane style.

Allow me to rebuke Hendrick on his knowledge of Cho Ga wingchun. In one of the clips posted on youtube - Singapore Kong Chow Anniversary in 2006, sifu Mark Tham was performing the Cho Ga wooden dummy form and Hendrick commented that it was not Cho Ga. However, the clip posted by Eric when he visited Singapore Kong Chow also showed sifu Mark Tham performing the same wooden dummy form and now Hendrick proclaimed that it is Yik Kam's art. So which is which? I really doubt his expertise in Cho Ga wingchun.

Again, I challenge Hendrick. Show us your Sim Lim Tao, wooden dummy form and his Cho Ga evidence.:rolleyes: :cool:

Vajramusti

05-09-2007, 06:12 AM

I have met Hendrik and visited with him over two days several years ago in the San Jose area. I dont do his style of wing chun and am quite happy with the Ip Man variation via sigung Ho and sifu Augustine Fong that I do. I dont move in his circles.Some of his critiques IMO does not apply to what I do.
His quick postings and keyboard work can create communication problems which disappear when you meet him in person or get used to his English writing style.
I have seen his Cho family sil lim tao-its both graceful and internal and he can
muster power. He has fought full contact matches in his time. As an evolving Buddhist he gave up martial competition and hurting folks. He has been interested witha sense of obligation in inceasing knowledge about Cho family wing chun- beyond practitoners and he has done it almost singlehandedly. He has a deep background in a transmission of Chan Buddhism. Some Cho family folks do clf and other things...but they keep their wing chun distinct.
He hasa large martial and buddhist literature connection including materials from Emei. He is of Fujian Chinese origin but out of Indonesia and Malaysia and he has travelled in China. he is fluent in Cantonese and mandarin among other languages and he knows Chimese history and language development very well.
I dont always agree with him but I have learned a good deal from some of his posts. I dont always agree with him...but behind thst keyboard is a real and capable person. He can be obsessed with some tracks in discussions sometimes
but he is not other directed and he does not seek personal approval. He is also an engineer. There is no point in verbally attacking him- one is free to comment, agree, disagree or ignore his positions and posts.

joy chaudhuri

Hendrik

05-09-2007, 08:01 AM

Joy,

Thanks for your post.

IMHO
You see, I just hope that it would be great that in the future the standard of all martial artists will be brought up to University academia level. so that real research could be carry out.

A long way to go, however, I believe somedays it will get there.

I always maintain the same view, I rather the whole world think I am fantasying and could face Yik Kam direct when someday I met him.

Let's have some fun time.

Here are the song I love to sing with Yik Kam.
http://persiana.persiangig.com/audio/XAJH/01%20-%20Liu%20Huan%20-%20Wang%20Fei%20-%20Xiao%20Ao%20Jiang%20Hu.mp3
http://persiana.persiangig.com/audio/XAJH/02%20-%20Song%20Zu%20Ying%20-%20Tian%20Di%20Zuo%20He.mp3

BTW, anyone expert in Chinese Care to translate the lyrics for fun?
or some could find the lyrics to post it here?
who knows the music? Tze Yin Tze Yin. hahahaha

peace

Eric Ling

05-09-2007, 09:41 AM

Hi everybody,

Naively, I was hoping that this thread doesn’t turn out to be a slug fest; Oktoberfest maybe ……..

Okay, I will stop posting anymore Cho Gar clips as a mark of respect to this fantastic family in China working hard to sustain their arts.

Bro Hendrik, let me reiterate, I am not challenging you or Jim or anyone who comes here to present their views.

Having said that, imho, to persuade others we need more than words. Bro Hendrik, if you believe what you believe, I think you should use all means and forms to address the audience

That is why I do what I do, I am putting together this gathering so that we could all meet and touch hands and experience. Really I am getting a bit weary of hearing all the endless disagreements of what’s right or wrong, if there was such a condition in the first place.

Por Suk told me that after a few hundred years, there are bound to be variances in the art considering that it was taught to different folks during a very tumultuous time in history.

The art was adapted to best perform the job at hand. You train one way on board a boat and another on land. He went on to describe how the various historical Masters added or subtracted to tailor it specific needs.

I have long accepted that this as the “evolution” that we mentioned.

So, we have this scenario; what are we going to to?

Accept it and enjoy the colorful fabric or try to bleach everything back to monochrome.

Jim, thanks for your message. I see your “bigness” through it.

But after digesting what you wrote, strangely to me, you appear to be describing “Whooping Crane”….

I have always thought that Wing Chun (regardless of lines) has “evolved” away from the noticeable spine movements and keep all movements “small” or “imperceptible”…even the “breath” must be hidden to prevent opponents from reading intent. Karate folks would tell you how they are trained to read opponents’ breathing to time their strikes…

This stillness, coincidentally, is also what we aspire to realize at advance level of Whooping Crane.

Warmest Regards.

Eric :)

Hendrik

05-09-2007, 09:49 AM

Eric Siheng,

If I were to post Cho Gar’s CLF, I think many red flags would be raised by CLF high hands in this forum. Cho Gar’s CLF is so unusual ….. ------ E

IMHO,

If my memory serve, on martial art style, My sigung Cho On used to say, if it is coffee then it has to taste like coffee. if it is tea then it is not coffee. I agree 100% with my sigung.

eventhought I could and happily accept people brought me tea, coffee, or coke, or mix coffee with milk. if things are no longer coffee, I would say it is not coffee. Otherwise it is a misleading.

and I also belive it is a two way street on the coffee analogy. Others will say the same to Cho Gar, and IMHO Cho Gar has to take it with Grace to communicate.

sure,
Cho Gar could have its own way of doing CLF, Hung Gar....etc. But is that still CLF or Hung Gar? if not then just called it Cho Gar kuen to not confuse with CLF and Hung Gar. IMHO.

and also IMHO, Cho Gar also has to have the openess of letting authentic CLF artists raise their questions and critics. it is about communication. IMHO.

My sijo's name is Dak Sheng meaning Winning with Virture. Thus, I believe Virture and Openess and Grace is a big part of the teaching of Cho family.

In additional, I believe in the art of Cho Dak-sheng. since I have a little real life experience with other figthing art such as Kyokushin...etc. I really dont believe some superficial practice will create great master such as Cho Dak-sheng.

Let's Face it, just to enter the SEA Lui Tai, how tough and good one has to be? not to mention in the Era of my sijo and great sijo how much deadly challenge one has to face?

So, there are more in depth stuffs behind Cho Family's teaching. I just dont and cant buy in some very surface idea of posture mimic-ing or book reading speculation as the art.

For example,

The fifth STanza of Yik Kam's SLT kuen kuit said " Qi (as Chi) Zi (as accumulate) Dan Dien ( as Dan Dien in the lower abdoment) Du Mai (du medirian) Ciang (sink). (btw, this is a stanza which was a copied from Emei 12 Zhuang by Miu Shun?)

To those expert and researchers who concluded that Cho Gar's Yik Kam's teaching is not Internal etc....well. I rather said they have no idea or clueless on what they are talking about.

And I also question for past 150 years since Yik Kam, how many has attained that level of kung fu, just to implement and handling the 5th stanza?

So, when you say "
I look at that form and I think he’s alright using the measures that I use."

The 5th is one of the measurements in Yik Kam's teaching well and clearly define. If the form is done by Overseas offspring, I would not say a word. since It is done by headquater, then, I have to say something because I care deeply for the family and the art and the barr must not slips IMHO. otherwise, it will no longer able to generate the same grade of artists similar to my sijo Cho Dak-Sheng . IMHO.

as for your reasoning on

"To you, an insider, things might be different and that why I ask to see your version; more to try and understand how you gauge."

That is hitting a bigger question, how do we know one be able to do the 5th stanza? could seeing enough to know if one could handle the 5th or the sink of Zhen Qi and the handling of spine subtlely? That is a big question. and my humble opinion is it is not trivial unless one has machine similar to HRV or EEG then one could monitor a little closer.

Bro, I noticed you write beautifully in your articles elsewhere, why are you so “patchy” here? Now I am getting personal hahahaha….:D :D :D-------- E

hahaha. must be some reason I dont know.

I like to communicate and sharing idea ; however sometimes I have to say no when I know it cannot be yes. it is always no longer beautiful when that happen.
IMHO, it is better to stick with the truth then let our name ruin 100 years later because Those who do research then will find out what is going on.

Warm Regards
Hendrik

byond1

05-09-2007, 10:24 AM

Brother Eric,

I hope you wont let a few shadows cover, all of the sunlight you have brought to so many different practioners lives. Hendrik does have the right to post his opinion. And I sincerely hope, that wont stop you from sharing more Cho gar in the future.

I feel WCK and all CMA evolve, in each new person that learns them. We all have our own way of expressing the ~Art~, and to make them alive, they must be allowed to grow. If they stayed stagnent, they would ~Die~ and there would be nothing left to preserve and pass on.

Remember brothers. Its open hearts and open sharing - Unconditionally
It doesnt matter, if there are a few with closed hearts and ego sharing. The light doesnt care if shadow exists, its part of the natural order of things.

Brian

Hendrik

05-09-2007, 10:47 AM

Bro Eric,

Bro Hendrik, let me reiterate, I am not challenging you or Jim or anyone who comes here to present their views. -----E

No worry at all. I would not believe what I said if I dont go through what I go through.

Having said that, imho, to persuade others we need more than words. Bro Hendrik, if you believe what you believe, I think you should use all means and forms to address the audience -------E

You are right.

Once I have offer to share, and
For example there is Jim, Paul... etc, they took my offer, visited me.

I dont have to persuade them because the Nature speak for itself. when the art grow within one's body one knows.

That is why I do what I do, I am putting together this gathering so that we could all meet and touch hands and experience. Really I am getting a bit weary of hearing all the endless disagreements of what’s right or wrong, if there was such a condition in the first place. -------E

You see, there is disagreements and there is different opinion...etc.

To be real honest,
I dont even care for that, I like to get into something like the 5th Stanza as I brought up above.

Could one do it? if not then one can have the reason of the whole world and nothing could work. That is the reason I brought up not to use intelecture speculation until one experience what is what.

IMHO, the bottom line is are we restore the art or are we argue based on our view points. we could win the arguement and debate but the art die.

To be real honest, if one cant do the 5th, then the SLT could not get internal. That simple. but how many willing to face this?

IMHO, until we have an acadamia type of education, we could not thinking straight most of the time.

Por Suk told me that after a few hundred years, there are bound to be variances in the art considering that it was taught to different folks during a very tumultuous time in history. -

The art was adapted to best perform the job at hand. You train one way on board a boat and another on land. He went on to describe how the various historical Masters added or subtracted to tailor it specific needs.

I have long accepted that this as the “evolution” that we mentioned. --------E

Sure I agree with you about the evolution. however, I dont totally agree with Por Suk.

Cho family similar to the Pan family has produced a few generation of great martial artis continously down to my sifu Cho Hong-Choy's generation. ( since I dont know the younger generation). When I got the Kuen kuit and teaching of Yik Kam, there I realized there are keys/principle within the teaching which will not change disregard of one's personal characteristics and depth of kungfu.

As an example, if you look at Poh Suk's clip and my sihengs picture in the 1970. you will notice they all have the close body reel which is very different compare with today's general type of WCK with rapid fire to center line.

So, IMHO, there is a key why is this happen. and that link into how one is practicing at that time. and if this key is missing or evolve away, then one no longer has this type of uniqueness. So, could we reproduce those type of 1970 taste? Yes, if we know the key.

so, the important thing is the key or the transmission. and sometimes, it is not evolution, it is due to we are not that capable to "realized" in depth what it is or sometimes, some one is being secretive and purposely or accidentally not passing down the key. So, the art change big time after that generation without knowing the art is lost.

So, we have this scenario; what are we going to to?

Accept it and enjoy the colorful fabric or try to bleach everything back to monochrome. -------E

You see, Localized Evolution is not a problem. the issue comes when the core or the Key above is no longer there.

For example, the White Crane Chun Jing Jieh Lik (inch jing join power) . Sure it is going to evolve after hundreds of years. However, not everything is Chun Jing Jieh Lik.

Thus, I raise the 5th hoping some one will see the light. Without the Emei technology, the Snake will not live because as soon as one cannot handle one's spine and join, one cannot manifest the snake well.

IMHO, it is not about who is right. it is about will the enginee turn on. However, this bring up another serious issue of ancient CMA--- giving weapon to the wrong person will end up creating more problem.

So, now one is in a dilemma of to say it is wrong to not say it is also wrong.

Just to share some deep thoughts of mine. and I put this case behind me.

Best Regards
Hendrik

Hendrik

05-09-2007, 11:13 AM

Eric siheng,

But after digesting what you wrote, strangely to me, you appear to be describing “Whooping Crane”….-----E

Does Whooping Crane fajin when the knee becomes straight from bending or bending becomes straight?

I have always thought that Wing Chun (regardless of lines) has “evolved” away from the noticeable spine movements and keep all movements “small” or “imperceptible”…even the “breath” must be hidden to prevent opponents from reading intent. Karate folks would tell you how they are trained to read opponents’ breathing to time their strikes… -------- E

Thus, I have heard.

1, one needs to aware of the spine and breathing before entering into the minute.

2, it is imperceptible because it become a part of nature. when the qi sink to dan dien and the lower abs breathing activate there is a different type of breathing. and this type of breathing resonance with the spine .... there one enter another state and that state unless one experience, intellect thinking doesnt get one there.

3 it was done without using strength in breathing or intention or thinking. it is let go let god and by passed the intellecture mind. but using Awareness. it is about Dao mimic nature.

This stillness, coincidentally, is also what we aspire to realize at advance level of Whooping Crane. ---- E

IMHO, Stillness could be measure via EEG, breathing could be measure via HRV. until then we really dont know are we talking about the same state. not to mention there is Silence after the Stillness....etc. and after silence then one enter into the state of leading the Qi. there are many ways to get there but YIk Kam's SLT is using the Emei 12 Zhuang technology. That is forsure.

Thus I have heard.

Warmest Regards.

Hendrik

Eric Ling

05-09-2007, 12:49 PM

Bro Hendrik,

I hear you … keeping the arts, imho, comes in many shapes and forms.

You are a “purist” in my book; keep it to the ways the founder intended uncompromisingly, which is why I find it hard to reconcile this to your standpoint of not wanting to “preserve the fruits” of the past.

Again, I know where you are coming from but sometimes I find following your presentation hard because you are so “patchy”….:D :D :D

To answer your question of Whooping Crane, the answer is both. Both actions are integral to the concept of “tun and to” that we use throughout my line of Whooping Crane.

Pardon me if I don’t go into fine details; I am very aware of a joker prowling all the forums and picking bits and pieces of info to restitch and present it as his own version of “Whooping Crane”.

This to me is “violation” and not “evolution”….

Warmest Regards.

Eric

Jim Roselando

05-09-2007, 05:06 PM

Hey Eric,

Jim, thanks for your message. I see your “bigness” through it.

Computer discussion is hard sometimes. :) JR

But after digesting what you wrote, strangely to me, you appear to be describing “Whooping Crane”….

Never watched Wooping other than some of the clips you ahve posted. I connot comment on the similarities. JR

I have always thought that Wing Chun (regardless of lines) has “evolved” away from the noticeable spine movements and keep all movements “small” or “imperceptible”…even the “breath” must be hidden to prevent opponents from reading intent. Karate folks would tell you how they are trained to read opponents’ breathing to time their strikes…

What I have found is Wing Chun has Evolved away from the Body and focus more on the Application. Tee & Yong These need to work in harmony and because the Body is usually something different (like weight lifting, Hung Gar, CLF, Taiji etc) its hard to comprehend when read versus trained/felt. The fine movement need not show gross waving and spine flex but during training their has to be the subtle body action managing and conditioing the body. Without this there is no reproduction of stylized Ging's in the arts. The actions of Wing Chun have to flow with natural breath tho as the art is just too fast for any form of focused breathing intent. JR

This stillness, coincidentally, is also what we aspire to realize at advance level of Whooping Crane.

:)

On another note! With regards to Hendrik and his lineage I can tell you that while visiting his house I personally was lucky enough to look thru his family book. This book contained loads and loads of old pictures and writings and notes. One note that was very cool to read was from Cho Hung Choi sigungs Wife I believe. Stating how much Hendrik meant to her husband and other nice words. I'm sure they would be proud that he has shared his understanding as best he can!

When a family does Multiple arts (and often arts that do not belong being practiced together) for many many generations its often very hard to not avoid cross-breeding. Forutnately, the Cho family preserve the Yik Kam Kuen Kuit to use as a guide for their arts Tee & Yong.

Have to run my friend but if you ever come to the states visit Boston and I will be more than happy to let you feel the art. BTW: I hope you realize that only in Boston you can learn to cook NE Clam Chowder! (I am being sarcastic! hahaha Its like saying you have to go to Hung village to learn Hung Gar)

BTW 2: Nobody is saying the demo's are not real nice! Thats very important. Just trying to be very specific in discussion if you know what I mean?

Respect to Crane family!

:)

Hendrik

05-09-2007, 05:16 PM

Bro Hendrik,

You are a “purist” in my book; keep it to the ways the founder intended uncompromisingly, which is why I find it hard to reconcile this to your standpoint of not wanting to “preserve the fruits” of the past.

...

Bro Eric,

Have you ever think in a direction of perhaps I am not a purist (but I am a librate who I dont even care if the SLT looks like dancing in the movie clip I post as soon as it has a soul? ) but I am trying to tell the world why do we settle for less where we could have it all?

Why is Cho Gar has to lower the standard since there are so much depth in Cho Gar art?

Why is Yik kam lineage has to lower it's art ability since within the transmission we know its is deep?

we might not know how to do it but we dont want to deny the ancestors have done it. and we dont want to deny somedays we could do it too.

If one look at things that way, then they understand me, I am trying to tell the world nope no one needs to compremise but can have it all. Just let go the resistance of thinking not having it is by default.

I really would love to encourage this type of open to all and have it all thinking for everyone. See, life doesnt have to struggle. but once one started to argue this not that is not then one start loosing it. IMHO. and the minute we limit ourself to lacking or scacity thinking as default then our world become limited and how could we do research? how could we manifest?

My sijo Cho Dak-Sheng bring a big revolution in Cho Family art, my sifu Cho Hong-Choy has contribute a major part of my training. Both, IMHO, are very creative or limitless people. For Creative is the key to live and Creative is the voice of the soul. once one lost this voice then one lost the soul. Thus, I dont belive in preserve but keep creative and keep alive.

One could Localize Evolve and expanding, Evolve as much as deep as one could expand as vast as one could, that is great provided one's evolve comes with the soul. otherwise, things become a cut and paste instead of Evolution and expanding.

BTW, I am not preserving it because what I know from Cho Hong-Choy and the Yik Kam writing is alive well in the USA today.

and if I die today.
as the song in the crouching tiger and hidden dragon sing.----

If the sky opened up for me,
And the mountain disappeared,
If the seas ran dry, turned to dust
And the sun refused to rise
I would still find my way,
By the light I see in your eyes
The world I know fades away
But you stay

BTW. the lyrics is beautiful and it is even beautiful after one goes through the seas ran dry and sun refuse to rise.

Sun refuse to rise could be seen as the SLT has no longer even have the Zhao Yan Sau of White Crane.... but we would still find our way to get it back.

Peace

Hendrik

05-09-2007, 10:38 PM

I decide to share this view ...

Preservation means burden.
For we cannot freeze time and kept the past in a time capsure and expecting it to have life.
and or expect everyone to live in the shadow of the past and called that faithfull or royal to the family. That actually is a waste of life;
or worship the past and miss out NoW.

Similar to a rose,
no matter how one preserve it the rose is going to be dry out.
because it has longer has life.
and trying to preserve something without live is a burden.
you know it is not going to last long...

We could no longer live in the past,
for it is over and will never come again no matter how glory the past is.
The more energy we invest into the past,
the less energy we have for our present or living this instant.
That become a drag, a burden that trap oneself instead of set one free.

the more weight the burden the longer one wait to attain free and grow

Why not take the seed of the Rose,
plant it in SEA,
Plant it in Boston,
Plant it in Penang,
Plant it in LA
Plant it in Fujian......

Let the rose grow as it is under the condition of the different location.

Forget about preserve the past,
but let life continous to grow every instant.

No longer burden,
No longer trying to live the past,
No longer feel drain,
No longer needs to do thing as the old ways.

But let the nature take its corse,
Let Go Let God,

Let the Rose Grow without preserve it.
and That is about Spring. Grow Now and Free.
No need to argue about who is right or wrong or the right way.
For what matter is the Nature Way.
those which could grow and bloom is the Nature.

However,

you need a seed to start with. and that seed is what I am talking about.
The rest, be it in Poon Yee or Moon, Boston or Penang, it does matter.

A living Rose is a living Rose.

The mission is to break the boundary of self limitation and set oneself free. That is about restoring and lets life continuous flow freely and manifest and bloom.

Eric Ling

05-09-2007, 11:11 PM

Hendrik

05-10-2007, 05:47 AM

Hahahaha… Bro Hendrik,

This is so funny; I actually started writing a message to be posted after you talked about “fruits” but decided not to for some reasons.

I normally type in Microsoft Words and then cut and paste in this forum..

Essentially, my argument in that aborted message is that preservation is not about “fruits” of past Masters. It’s really more about the seeds planted by the Masters in the disciples and allowing that to bloom.

Or in the words of my late Sifu; my kung fu cannot be your kung fu. I show you the way and you find it yourself ….

Hahahaha, maybe I should really join you on that boat and play er-hu … hahahaha ….

Warmest Regards.

Eric

Eric Bro,

A lots of things happen here is not an co-incident. IMHO.

Ask Jim, he was in my home when we would like to take my clips, the video camera battery died of. So, I take it as divine wants me to stay in the back ground... if the divine didnt want me to realease my 8 medirians understanding then so be it. .. Let Go Let GOD.

peace

Shadow_warrior8

05-10-2007, 09:02 AM

Eric Bro,
does the price of 900usd include accomodation and food? Plane tickets? Transfers?
Lets route back to the martial arts gathering 2007 and for people wanting to go.
Generate more interest here. Clock ticking.....
Told some of my bros here. They are salivating.
Apic event.......
http://www.martialartsgathering.com/index.html

Hendrik

05-11-2007, 05:11 PM

Bro Eric,

Please keep post your clips be it from Cho Gar or other style.

Since it is about sharing the Seed and hope that some one will join to grow the Rose. Others opinion is always great because some opinions are contributing for a better grow. IMHO.

In Cho family, we have a set which name CLF, this set applying the component of CLF, pau kaap Wang Kua Chat...etc , center with the Huen Kaam Tiu Taap the core of Yik Kam WCK.

So, certainly it will not be exact CLF however it has its uniqueness for the locallized evolution.

IMHO, Localization Evolution is nature and as soon as one could present the uniqueness and the seed behind the LE that is respectable.

IMHO, that there are a different type of Localization Evolution, those are the type when the art is lossing one or many of its keys without aware of this has happen. That usually end up with one argue to defend when question instead of presenting the uniqueness.

Thus, presenting a uniqueness evol in general will widen the horizon of others to see a new fusion.
got critic on the losing evolution in general will aid the practitioners to restore the key which is missing or fading.

As for my comment on the SLT of Yik Kam, and others opion on me on this case, the Truth is there is the 5th stanza.

Yik Kam has wrote about it, Cho Hong-Choy has written discussion about the sinking of Qi to Dan Dien issue to his student, and he indeed has pulled the 5th on me in the late 1970 when I was doing Tenso kata to tell me I couldnt sink my qi to dan dien...

So, for Yik Kam lineage, one will not be able to discount this fact unless one has the writing of Miu Shun to Over write Yik Kam. Also, for the Cho family's WCK, when it is on the Yik Kam SLT since from Yik Kam to Cho Hong-Choy we have written record of the involvement of the 5th.
Unless there is personal writting by my sijo Cho Dak-Shing to reveal that Cho family discard the 5th, then the 5th is there by default under Cho Dak-Shing's lineage.

Not to mention, Cho Hong-Choy also learn from Sam Chan who is in the same generation as Cho Dak-Shing (eventhought Cho Hong-Choy keep his position as the Student of Cho On and Cho Cuen, instead of by passed and get a higher title with Sam Chan),

Thus, from the facture stand point, the 5th applied to both Yik Kam lineage and Cho family WCK.

and if one has it that is great, if one has lost it then it is time to get it back instead of jumping into conclusion on Cho Family WCK or Yik Kam WCK has no internal art components which is damaging the art in the name of defending the family or lineage. which is actually not defending the lineage because when the art is damage the lineage's is also damage. IMHO

Best Regards
Hendrik