hand training harmful

[Lbtsang]

just wondering if hand condition ie punching boards, etc is harmful too the fingers and would it limit mobility? for example would it make playing the piano harder?

[ginosifu]

Yes,
Improper training can and will damage your hands. Nerve damage, arthritus & loss of dexterity will set in if you hit wrong.
Find a good instructor and learn how to train your hands properly.

Ginosifu:p

[Lbtsang]

but even with proper training, isnt the point of hand conditioning to strengthen the joints and the fingers? and if this hardens the joints would it lower finger dexterity?

[Wood Dragon]

but even with proper training, isnt the point of hand conditioning to strengthen the joints and the fingers? and if this hardens the joints would it lower finger dexterity?

Joints don't "harden".

They do a lot of other things, but no hardening.

[bodhitree]

My personal belief (and take that for what it is) is that any "hand conditioning" is asking for problems. My hands hurt all of the time, and I did Iron palm under a reputable teacher, with dit da jow, mung beans and all. You could spend the time you would hitting something and actually train technique (like on a heavy bag with gloves on) or Actual conditioning (aerobic or strength). As for shins with glass bottles ect. I 've heard that causes weak spots on the bones making them more likely to break. But thats just me.

[Raised by Swans]

one of the first KF schools I trained in started hand, forearm and shin conditioning early in their curriculum. We did alot banging, applying jow, mung beans, all that stuff, and I found the whole experience both painful and unproductive. It wasn't until I started training with my current Sifu that I started learning there were internal methods as well as external methods for iron training.

If you're truly interested in iron training and don't want to corrupt your body, I would seek out a teacher who works with internal methods.

Just out of curiousity, why do you want to iron train? To be a better fighter? Demonstrations? Personal challenge? The mystique and cool factor?

[Lbtsang]

ohh...

well i actually want to train at a nearby shaolin-do school which is credited

cscsanjose.com

i want to do the internal course, and learn tai chi. but its just that in fighting, if you strike someone hard enough, it would hurt yourself, so wouldnt you have to strengthen the hands? cus my friend got almost-mugged down somewhere, and one gangster kid punched him in the face, but the kid ran off with a broken hand instead of doing damage...

if i do learn tai chi or an internal martial art i wouldnt have to worry about hand strength?

thx

[bodhitree]

if i do learn tai chi or an internal martial art i wouldnt have to worry about hand strength?

thx

I wouldn't think so. Tai Chi is mostly redirecting and off balancing.

[Lbtsang]

yeah thats kinda why i wanted to learn it. but if i have to make a pre emptive strike, wont i have to use my fist/palms?

[bodhitree]

I don't think a "conditioned" hand is any less likely to break. Proper alignment can prevent some injuries.

[Wood Dragon]

Hand conditioning:

Heavy bag. With gloves. With handwraps.

[JDK]

There are at leas t 2 types of hand conditioning..and I have tried them both. As a Formr Boxer I hit the Heavy Bag and sparred alot...recieving everything from sore knuckles and wrists, to sprained thumbs sore hands......The OTHER method I used was the Indirect or Internal Iron Palm training, along with bruise medicines and herbs for protection and chi enhancment.....this method was far less damaging to my hands, and produced a pretty powerful punch and slap. It requires more time, patience and a qualified Teacher...but is much safer in the long run.
Remember...as we age, arthritus and unseen nerve damage begins to 'catch up' with us.

If you are young...I doubt you will heed this advice...but all I am offering is the truth.

JD

[Lbtsang]

thx. yes i do believe you and i belive the way to go is the internal arts. and yeah im 14 ><

[JDK]

thx. yes i do believe you and i belive the way to go is the internal arts. and yeah im 14 ><

Good decision Lbtsang.

Find a qualified Teacher and proceed slooooooowly.
The nerves in our hands also connect to our eyes and heart.( Among other things) So it is very important not to damage your hands.

Also as you seem to know....the Internal Method will permit more dexterity of the fingers and wont make your hand look like Foot!

Keep me posted

JD

[Lbtsang]

the nerves in the hands connected to the eyes and the heart? wow i never knew that. thanks fer tellin me now i make sure not to mess them up ^^. also what do you mean by proceed slowly? like dont train too much?

thx for all the help :)

[JDK]

the nerves in the hands connected to the eyes and the heart? wow i never knew that. thanks fer tellin me now i make sure not to mess them up ^^. also what do you mean by proceed slowly? like dont train too much?

thx for all the help :)

By proceeding slowly I mean dont think results come overnight.
Internal Training is a Marathon...not a Sprint.

The body needs time to adjust to Iron Palm training, even under the best supervision and proper Medicines and Herbs.

Here are a couple of Charts showing key Meridian/ Acupuncture Points...I will try and find more detailed ones

http://www.karate.butsu.net/anatomy/skeleton.gif

http://www.russbo.com/seidokan/seidokan_iron_palm.htm

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.karate.butsu.net/anatomy/skeleton.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.karate.butsu.net/hpage23.html&h=475&w=270&sz=35&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=s7PhLORTexTO-M:&tbnh=129&tbnw=73&prev=/images%3Fq%3DAcupuncture%2BChart%2Bfor%2BMartial%2 BArts%2BUse%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe% 3Doff%26sa%3DG

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.tcmcentral.com/images/TCM_Logosm_01.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.tcmcentral.com/TCM_Methods/CM_ACU.htm&h=63&w=250&sz=11&hl=en&start=2&tbnid=zDI7Ezoy4jMsIM:&tbnh=28&tbnw=111&prev=/images%3Fq%3DAcupuncture%2BChart%2Bfor%2BMartial%2 BaRTISTS%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Do ff%26sa%3DG

http://www.tcmcentral.com/Acupuncture/acu_EAR.htm

http://www.tcmcentral.com/Acupuncture/acu_channels.htm

[JDK]

12 Since the fingers are connected through the meridians to the eyesight, again, relaxation of the arm and body are essential. Only the amount of muscle needed to actually hold the hand in its proper form should be used. The arm and body stay relaxed as always, and gravity alone provides the acceleration into the strike.


3 The hand strikes flat and relaxed on the bag surface. Any muscular exertion or tension can cause damage to the heart, as the shock of the strike returns through the heart acupuncture meridians. (Repeat, starting with 10 to 20 strikes per hand. Eventually, from 50 to 100 per day may be performed. Complete the training with one hand before striking with the other.)

http://www.russbo.com/seidokan/seidokan_iron_palm.htm




JD

[Lbtsang]

ah this is good information. now i know how to prevent damage. thx alot!

[JDK]

Your welcome~

See new thread I posted on DIM MAK for more details...

JD

[JDK]

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=729866#post729866[

[dougadam]

I have been doing high repetition push ups on my knuckles on concrete for years. And I still type fine. :)

[Lbtsang]

well i mean if you want hands that can break marble like this guy

http://youtube.com/watch?v=mraKJTfqVzw

and i thought taekkyon was for your feet ^^

[kidswarrior]

Good decision Lbtsang.

Find a qualified Teacher and proceed slooooooowly.
The nerves in our hands also connect to our eyes and heart.( Among other things) So it is very important not to damage your hands.

Also as you seem to know....the Internal Method will permit more dexterity of the fingers and wont make your hand look like Foot.
JD

Well, I'm 55, and 40 years of boxing, street nonsense (I was younger and foolisher;) ), and early on in my asian martial training (10-15 years ago), trained under some guys who didn't understand joints at all (let alone qi and meridian lines!) I've broken 21 bones in martial arts, and not one of them ever hurts today--except the fingers. And my hands do look kinda like feet. Takes me about 30 minutes to make them work in the morning.

What you need to know has already been said by others here: go slowly (Jimmy H Woo always said, If you want to go fast, slow down); don't hit hard objects with the hard parts of your hands (Muhammed Ali, Joe Frazier, and proabably a lot more than we know of the greatest boxers had arthritis in their hands in their 20s, while still fighting; wrapping and gloves won't prevent this over time); I teach my students to hit hard with soft (e.g., use palm heel or knife hand, which are padded, to the face) and soft with hard (use fist to groin, inner thigh, neck or throat [that's potentially lethal, tho, so only for extreme emergencies]).

Anyway, just don't want you to get shephered down the wrong path as I did. I can work through it, but why do that to yourself when you'll be a better fighter with more flexible hands?

[JDK]

I have been doing high repetition push ups on my knuckles on concrete for years. And I still type fine. :)

Your push-method is good and very effective, but isnt quite the same as IronPalm training.

You are not STRIKING your Palm ( front & Back) repeatedly, nor thrusting your fingers into beans, pebbles, small rocks, glass, etc...

The Direct Method of Iron Palm is very Damaging...but the results may show up years after the abuse.

The Indirect Method is preferred..because it is safer, and prolongs and helps maintian the dexterity and feeling in the hand, while decreasing the chances of effecting the organs connected in the habds to other body systems.

Keep doing those Knuckle Push-Ups!:) And if you havnt tried this already...start by adding weight to your body as you do them..and eventually work up to having a 150 pound person sit on your back while you do the Push-Ups:eek:

Your gains in strength will almost double.

JDK

[JDK]

Well, I'm 55, and 40 years of boxing, street nonsense (I was younger and foolisher;) ), and early on in my asian martial training (10-15 years ago), trained under some guys who didn't understand joints at all (let alone qi and meridian lines!) I've broken 21 bones in martial arts, and not one of them ever hurts today--except the fingers. And my hands do look kinda like feet. Takes me about 30 minutes to make them work in the morning.

What you need to know has already been said by others here: go slowly (Jimmy H Woo always said, If you want to go fast, slow down); don't hit hard objects with the hard parts of your hands (Muhammed Ali, Joe Frazier, and proabably a lot more than we know of the greatest boxers had arthritis in their hands in their 20s, while still fighting; wrapping and gloves won't prevent this over time); I teach my students to hit hard with soft (e.g., use palm heel or knife hand, which are padded, to the face) and soft with hard (use fist to groin, inner thigh, neck or throat [that's potentially lethal, tho, so only for extreme emergencies]).

Anyway, just don't want you to get shephered down the wrong path as I did. I can work through it, but why do that to yourself when you'll be a better fighter with more flexible hands?

GREAT POST kidswarrior!:)

Thanks for sharing your real-life experience.
I am a fan of Boxing and the ALI-FRAZIER triology of fights, and you are absolutely correct. It is amazing to me that Ali beat Foreman in Zaire...his hands by that point were so sore and painful, he stated that every punch he threw hurt when it landed....same for his last "Thrilla in Manilla" with Frazier.

Any qualified Western Physician will tell you our Hands were not made to hit.
The small bones and their structures are not well suited for repetitive striking of hard objects.
The early UFC Fighters didnt wear hand Gloves like they all do today...and many won the fight,,,but broke their hands in the process.

Thanks again for your testimony

JDK

[NJM]

punching boards

Don't do that.

[JDK]

Don't do that.

I agree.

JDK

[kidswarrior]

GREAT POST kidswarrior!:)

Thanks for sharing your real-life experience.

JDK

Thanks for listening to an old man (such a lost art these days). :)

[Lbtsang]

i see so ill probably stay away from fists and concentrate on palm. it also seems like hitting with the palm generates alot more power?

[YMIAN]

Iron Palm should include Internal and external aspects. I have done Iron Palm under not so good teachers and guys who really know there stuff. If all your doing is rubbing jow on before/ after and hitting boards your really going to screw up your hands later in life.

Along with the jow you should be doing internal exercises that promote blood flow to the hands (and join the body together). Your hands should be pumped with blood before you begin striking any board/ concrete etc.

Most internal MA will say that you dont need to pratice iron palm. An effect of internal arts is the flow of Qi/ blood thro the hands. In the art I currently study we have students breaking bricks/ river stones/ boards without ever doing iron palm, altho the option is there if you want it.

Study the internal arts and you will understand. After some time a natural response to a possible fight situation is that your body will move qi/ blood to your hands therefore protecting the joints from injury.

Matt

[JDK]

Thanks for the good post YMIAN ...as any Basic student should know chi follows the blood ...that is why often at Breaking Demonstrations, especially if it is an Internal Method practioner..you will see him/her do a few movements/breathing prior to the break.

We could carry a similiar principle about warming up in general , before a workout. Any western style boxing fans on this site have probabley seen a fighter
come into the ring cold,,,,not sweating and sometimes the result is that he becomes an early knockout victim.

Not warming up, stretching out, or getting the body's core temperature up, before engaing in a strenuous workout can lead to injuries. ( Even the unhealthy practice I have witnessed of students being taught to stretch their muscles cold has resulted in pulled hamstrings, injured shoulders, backs, etc...

ALWAYS...warm a muscle and joint up before working out. ( this includes Hand Training)

I realize" on the street" there is not time to do this..but thats another subject.
There is a way to almost instantly "warm up" if confronted suddenly.

Thanks again for the post

JDK

[SevenStar]

Not warming up, stretching out, or getting the body's core temperature up, before engaing in a strenuous workout can lead to injuries. ( Even the unhealthy practice I have witnessed of students being taught to stretch their muscles cold has resulted in pulled hamstrings, injured shoulders, backs, etc...

a pre-workout stretch can actually have negative effects. research is now showing this. Warm up, yes, but stretch after the workout.

I realize" on the street" there is not time to do this..but thats another subject.
There is a way to almost instantly "warm up" if confronted suddenly.


Now, that's interesting. What are you referring to?

[JDK]

a pre-workout stretch can actually have negative effects. research is now showing this. Warm up, yes, but stretch after the workout.



Now, that's interesting. What are you referring to?

SEE MY NEW POST ON STREET REALITY FIGHTING IN THAT SECTION.:)