Hung gar historical documents

[brianlkennedy]

Way back in the late 1970s I studied hung gar from one of Bucksam Kong's students. This year I kind of returned to my interest in hung gar and in addition to "dusting off" the old hung gar sets, I have also started to do some historical research on hung gar.

My question is, what is the oldest written material on hung gar?

I suspect it is the three books written in the early 1920s by Lam Sai Wing（林尚榮, i.e. Taming the Tiger Fist (伏虎拳) Tiger and Crane Fist (虎鶴雙拳) Iron Thread Form (鐵線拳)

And when I say oldest written material I mean oldest existing material. Thanks for whatever help folks can provide.

Happy Holidays,
Brian

[Asmo]

I know only of written material from Lam Sai Wing as well Brian. I also have seen an essay from Lam Sai Wing that is translated into English.

Other then that, there is a PDF for Gung Gee Fook Fu Kuen wich has some additonal historic information about the form from Leung Daat and Chiu Yu Tsai, from both the texts from GGFFK are included as well. This PDF used to be available from hunggar.net which seems to be expired now...

If you don't have this PDF, as far as I understand the intention was to give this PDF to the Hunggar family so pass me your email address in a priv and I'll pass it along.

But that is about it, unless someone else can come up with something! And you know how these things go, usually stuff is lingering around, people just need to want to share... ;)

PS: What are your plans with the information on the history of Hunggar? Writing a book maybe? There are quite a few people who have more insight into the history and have done research themself on the history (or specific parts, like a single set). It would be awesome if this info is being put side-by-side and distilled into a single form...

[Asmo]

I suspect it is the three books written in the early 1920s by Lam Sai Wing（林尚榮, i.e. Taming the Tiger Fist (伏虎拳) Tiger and Crane Fist (虎鶴雙拳) Iron Thread Form (鐵線拳)


I just noticed this and might want to add it is called Gung Gee Fook Fu Kuen in Lam Sai Wing lienages.

Not sure, but from your book, and the type of books released by Lion Books you might havea strong Taiwan bias. The Hung Gar lineages there seem to be often branched off at Wong Fei Hong and have not gone through Lam Tsai Wing, wich added the Gung Gee part before the Fook Fu Kuen part.

The book is also about GGFFK, and not just FFK.

Hope this helped :)

[Asmo]

Argh, can't help it but keep posting, LOL. I seriously hope this will lead to something for the whole community eventually Brain. As you have the talents and possibilities to do that, and I'm sure there is a market for a book on the history of Hung Gar.

You might want to read this thread which was started by White Tiger on the Hung Gar forum. WT is a student of Lau Gar Leung. http://southernkungfu.forumco.com/topic~TOPIC_ID~676.asp (not sure, but you might need to register to be able to read.)

He has a refreshing view on the importance of Wong Fei Hung.

[PM]

yes, the oldest Hung kyun 洪拳 or better say Lingnaam kyun seut 岭南拳术 manuals are so-called Lam Saiwing's 林世榮 books.

i would like to note that there were not written by Lam Saiwing, but his students (first was probably the fu hok seung ying kyun 虎鹤双形 published in the 1920's, i think in 1923, second gung ji fuk fu kyun 工字伏虎拳, published in 1936, the last one - and worst one, with many mistakes and misconceptions, tit sin kyun 鐵線拳, was written when Lam Saiwing had already passed away, i think in 1950's). the books are definitely source of intereting info, but there are many mistakes (like wrong order of pics in fu hok book, wrong hand formations and stances in gung ji book with drawings etc., not to mention tit sin book - the text has almost no value for the practice of real tsk).

[brianlkennedy]

Hi Asmo and PM,
Thanks much for the help. My wife and I appreciate it.

Asmo,
Thanks much for the kind words that you gave in the other thread about my wife and Is book. She and I are happy that people find the book enjoyable and informative. And talking of books, yes, you are right, Elizabeth and I are starting the research on our next set of books and one of those books will be a history of hung gar.

I have always respected and enjoyed hung gar. It was we can say my first love in Chinese martial arts. It is the system I started with and I want to give something back to the system. And one way I can contribute to hung gar is by doing the history of it. As I have kind of laid it out there will be about one year of research and then about a year of writing and getting it sold to a publisher.

I am friends with another Chinese martial arts historian, a guy named Stan Henning. He has done a bit of work on the history of the southern Shaolin Temple and I hope to incorporate his work into mine. Plus I hope to gather information from folks here in cyberspace.

Turning to a couple of specific points you mentioned, yeah, coming from Bucksam Kong’s old school I should have remembered about the full formal name of that set being Gung Gee Fook Fu Kuen and not just Fook Fu. You are quite right about that.

You are also quite right about my book and my current knowledge having a strong Taiwan bias. That is 100% true. I really have completely lost contact with both the North American and the Hong Kong hung gar community. And as a result I am getting a kind of provincial Taiwan/Formosa Island approach to everything!

Hung gar has had an interesting history here in Taiwan and Taiwan still produces some (albeit very few) strong, skilled and well informed hung gar teachers. And you are also quite correct in that Taiwanese hung gar is actually two different things; Canton/Hong Kong styles and Fukien/Taiwan styles and the two are somewhat different. At this point I know little about it but I have connected up with a guy who got his Wushu degree from Chinese Culture University here in Taiwan and his specialty was Taiwanese hung gar so he will be a great resource.

Later this evening I will take a look at that thread you mentioned from White Tiger. Thanks for the link. And thanks very much for your help, this project is off to a great start. (I sent you a private message too about the pdf files—super thanks!)

PM,
Thanks to you too. First of all about the name hung gar. I constantly use that term but my wife (a Taiwanese) uses the term Lingnan as you recommend. She is helping me read a book written by 朱愚崙Zhu Yu-lun called 嶺南武術叢談Lingnan Wushu Cong Tan. The phrase refers to boxing systems developed south of some well known mountain range in China?

Also too, it comes as no surprise to me that the books were actually written by students, that was (and still is!) quite common in China. Thanks too for the dates.

On a side note, I see you are from the Czech Republic. By some coincidence do you happen to know a fellow Czech who lives here in Taiwan and is fairly well known in Chinese martial arts circles, the guys name is Miro (he never seems to use his last name). He studies pakua here in Taiwan. I have met him a few times and saw him at a demo about a month back.

Okay then, dinner time in the Far East. Happy Holidays,
Brian

[Asmo]

Ah, I was too quick about the books. Sometimes you take things for granted and forget about the origins. Thanks for reminding me PM :) The drawings have been made from photographs, which can be found on PM's website (also a good source of information): http://www.lghk.org/en/gallery/lsw_gjffk.htm

http://www.hungkuen.net/ also has a nice set of articles. I'm sure you already bumped onto this resource, but if not I fully recommend it. Amongst it an interesting article on Southern Shaolin.

http://www.siulam.info/ used to have a broad section with history on the various personalities from Hung Gar, both modern and ancient. But unfortunately this site seems to be gone...

I know TenTigers on this forum has done research to the history of Tit Sin. I'm sure he'll read this thread, or he might miss it as he often seems to be away from his computer during weekends and holiday periods... You might want to leave him a privmsg

And finally some articles that might further help you:
http://home.planet.nl/~padbe017/Nan_Shaolin_1.htm
http://home.planet.nl/~padbe017/chiukau.htm
http://home.planet.nl/~padbe017/shiuying.htm
(I myself am from the Chiu Chi Ling lineage)

[brianlkennedy]

Asmo,
Thanks much, you have quick hands (like all good hung gar practitioners!). When I got back from dinner just now the files were already here. Super thanks.

Now let me ask you all another one. Anybody know anything about this book. Liz picked it up about a week back. As is usual for a lot of Taiwanese books it has zero publishing info. So anybody recognize it?

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q48/brianlkennedy/lumchoutitle.jpg

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q48/brianlkennedy/lumchouinside.jpg


thanks,
Brian

[Asmo]

Those books are unknown to me...

[Laukarbo]

Hello Brian,

since u seem to know a lot about the taiwan hung gar I have a question for you,
from one of my chinese friends here in Manila I heard theres a hung gar school in Taiwan having Lau Jaam in their lineage..not sure if its as Sigung or older..
Our sigung is Lau Kar Leung and his father is Lau Jaam so there might be a connection..but I have zero contact infos to them..maybe u know somemore?
I have some clips of them but there are in chinese..just check taiwan hung gar on youtube my username is FrankyLau...thanks

Frank

[PM]

helo Brian,

Lingnaam mouseut 嶺南武術 might be more appropriate term - Lam Saiwing or the masters before him do not talk about their system as about Hungga/Hungkuyn, but simply as "martial art" (usualy kyunseut). the oly parts in so-called Lam Saiwing's books talking about Hungga are the parts with three pushes/extensions saam jin sau and fixing bridge. my sigung Lam Jou, a nephew of Lam Saiwing, has on his card Siulam kyunseut/Shaolin quanshu, and has exlained to me, that what is today called as Hung kyun is basically old Siulam plus other systems, which later branched out of Siulam, one of them being Hungga. Wong Feihung or Lam Saiwing lineage is kind of MMA of Southern China.

i have the book you have mentioned. are you planning to translate it? my Chinese is good enough just to have an idea what is the text about, not to translate it. it is a precious book about our system. Lingnaam 嶺南 means Gwongdung and Gwongsai provinces (Guangodong and Guangxi), area souith of the Five Ridges

yes, the books were written by the students - actually most of the old manuals were written or ghostwritten by the students (like the books of Yang Chengfu). sometimes there is more form the teacher, sometimes more from the student. people who know Lam Saiwing (he was not a scholar, but originally a butcher, later martial arts and army instructor, right?) say that the books are interesting, but are not a bibles or any sacred cow - in other words, they do not represent Lam Saiwings art or todays living art accurately.

if you plan to translate any of those, make sure to consult it with people wh really train the art - all the translations of the Hung ga books i have seen are really, really bad.

as for Miro, sure, i know him, send him my best regards. there is another friend of mine, his name is Dan Kral, maybe you know him too, and other friends of mine are visitng Taiwan regularly (see http://www.shaolin-hongquan.com/)

as fpr the other book, yes, i know it. interesting book, old Siulam. it was translated by Leung Ting's students (http://www.wle.com/products/b036.html), although it has different pics. gf styles in Singapore and Malaysia have a lot fo those movements from those books - Wong Kiew Kit sifu (http://www.shaolin.org) is one of the examples

btw where do you study and what is your lineage? form the Taiwanese Hongjia i have seen i can say that it is very different from WFH or LSW - i would say there is almost no connection (sets with the same names, but totally different choreography and structure etc.)

[The Great Sage of HU]

Brian,
Next to be books mentioned
Lam Sai Wing's Anniversary book, biggest part written by Wong Man Kai, is interesting
with some bio's and texts on forms.

Further there are many texts but they are mostly self-elevating texts,
for promotion rather than that the facts are correct.
Just like in any other field, there are many discrepancies in HK/Canton Hung style as for who learned from whom and who did what.
The more you dig into the history, the more problems you will find.

So from that point, it's easier to stick to the own lineage stories or in your case maybe only to Taiwan hung Kuen.

Lastly, I don't know if you want to publish a book on hung or not, as is being suggested in other posts. But there's not really a market for it. For example all the latest books in the market have been privately published.
An option might be selling it as an e-book, although expect to sell a few hundred copies maximum.

[Asmo]

The Great Sage of HU,

Where is this book "Lam Sai Wing's Anniversary book" for sale? I'm doing my best but am unable to find anything on it.

Thanks!

[The Great Sage of HU]

Frank,

maybe your friend is confused with a link about a school in Japan
that I posted a long time ago in a forum.
Anyway, it's http://www.koukaken.com/koukaken/koukaken.html
Lau Jaam should be in that lineage.
(At the moment I can't see Japanese characters, so I hope I picked the right link from My Favorites. If not, let me know).

[The Great Sage of HU]

Asmo,

nowadays only photo copies of it are spread.
So you have to ask around to people you know in person.

Of wacht gewoon effe, want de nederlandse versie bestaat binnenkort ook. (ssssssttt).

[Asmo]

Ken ik u? =) En mag ik vragen of ik de Nederlandse uitgaven absoluut niet missen kan omdat deze wijverbreid vermarkt word? Wereldje is slechts klein, maar gaat soms erg langs elkaar heen...

[The Great Sage of HU]

He said that in China it was more prominent

I really doubt this as there's only one person (Kwong Wing Lam) that learned this style. If it was prominent, there should be more.

Personally I believe there were many 5 animal / hung kuen schools as in small family branches, often not connected at all and totally different.
Only few survived to modern times though.

Even Wong Fei Hung and Lam Sai Wing Hung Kuen have been small throughout times.
If it weren't for the Lam Sai Wing books, the Wong Fei Hung movies and Lau family's involvement in other movies, LSW Hung Kuen will still have been unknown and hardly practised.

[PM]

as for Ha sei fu 下四虎, i would add just that none of the Hung kyun or southern gungfu masters i have spoken with, either in Hong Kong or southern China, has ever heard about this system. as for secret or unique systems, i am very suspicious.

Lam Saiwing is other thing. virtually everybody - and not just gungfu people - in Southern China, knows who "Porky Wing" was. he was Mr. Somebody in Chinese martial arts - he had big school in Canton with many students, on one of the main roads, same goes for his schools in Hong Kong, it is not just about the books or movies, we are talking about early 1900's-1920's. (well, Wong Feihung is another story, we all know it, but if he was not good, Lam Saiwing would not study with him for more than 20 years).

[The Great Sage of HU]

Lam Saiwing is other thing. virtually everybody - and not just gungfu people - in Southern China, knows who "Porky Wing" was. he was Mr. Somebody in Chinese martial arts - he had big school in Canton with many students, on one of the main roads, same goes for his schools in Hong Kong, it is not just about the books or movies, we are talking about early 1900's-1920's.

I would still call that small, as there were only a few schools after WFH teaching "more or less the same style".
At least, compared with how it's spread now and considering how many of the students will have been good and how many opened a school themselves.

Anyway, I agree with you that if Ha Say Fu and several other Hung styles that claim to be more original would have been known around if they were prominent back then.

As for Wong Fei Hung - of course he was good in kung fu. He devoted his life to "reconstructing" the squattered art of Siulam temple. Even though he didn't have a big school, he was still quite famous for his kung fu:

*******TRANSLATION
"My sigung, Wong Fei Hung quitted as the chief gung fu coach in Lau’s troop and went to Seui district to be the traditional Dit Da doctor. Because WFH was famous, my sifu (LSW) went to Wong Fei Hung and asked if he can be Wong’s student. However, at that moment my sigung had quitted teaching and thus he refused my sifu. My sifu asked Wong Fei Hung many times afterwards. Then Wong Fei Hung asked my sifu to show his gung fu. After showing Wong Fei Hung thought that my sifu is a talent of gung fu and accepted him as a student.

The techniques of my sigung originated from Siulam. He has met many good kung fu people. He used the techniques of different gung fu streams as reference and created “Fu Hok Seung Ying Kyun”. It contains hard and soft techniques. This set created a new era for the gung fu world at that time."
*********
Short Biography of my Sifu, Lam Sai Wing. By Wong Man Kai (from: Lam Sai Wing Anniversary Book). Translated by Lai Ka Wai

*****
"My sijo, Wong Fei Hung created it. ... He became famous and has met many good gung fu sifu. He picked the good points of different gung fu streams and then created the Fu Hok Seung Ying Kyun. ...Fu Hok Seung Ying Kyun also uses the strong points of the Hung, Mok, Hap and Fat streams as reference..."
*****
Discussion about Fu Hok Seung Ying Kyun, by Wong Kai Man (from: Lam Sai Wing Anniversary Book). Translated by Lai Ka Wai

[The Great Sage of HU]

removed double post.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

[hasayfu]

Ironmantis3, I think your intentions are good but as you state, you are new to this and I would recommend you temper your enthusiasm with a bit more diplomacy.

For the record, I am an instructor for Wing Lam Kung Fu and have been directly involved in much of the research in the HaSayFu system. I am NOT ironmantis3's sifu nor am I directly affiliated with the hasayfu site he referenced. Since this thread is more about Ling Nam Hung Gar, I don't want to go into the details but want to correct some statements made.

We (Wing Lam Kung Fu) do not consider HSF to be an older system or predecessor of Ling Nam Hung Gar. In fact, the name, HaSayFu comes from the region that it was popular in, which is not Canton. It's lack of popularity has nothing to do with Communist or Hung Mun conspiracies.

The bulk (and maybe only) sources of information on this system comes from magazine articles and the instructional tapes. While most of these had consultation from Sifu, they also took creative license in areas. One reason Sifu wants the book out is to correct some of these misconceptions.

Without totally side tracking this thread, suffice it to say, I have met people in Hong Kong that know of HaSayFu. Sifu Wing Lam is not the only person to have learned it from Leung Si-Gung. That said, it is not prominent in any stretch of the imagination and is close to being an extinct system.

It is a 5 animal system that calls itself Hung Gar. The "documents" that Sifu have found do not show old Hung Gar but like GS Hu states, they are smaller family styles that are not connected. That said, HSF does share very close similarities to these "village" styles (a phrase I think coined by Gene Ching). Not surprisingly, non of these references talk about lineage.

I think it's great that someone is promoting HSF. It is a very deep system with some good concepts. If you look beyond the shell, it shares more similarity with the Ling Nam system then differences. This is especially true if you compare it with other southern China kung fu systems.

Back on topic, another source of historical WFH based hung gar can be found in South East Asia. Specifically, Malaysia is an interesting time capsule. Of course it has been influenced by the modern world but much of the Chinese community (outside of KL) has kept its traditions in tact from the first immigrants in the early 1900s.

[brianlkennedy]

Thanks much to everyone for their help.

PM, I will tell Miro "hi" for you next time I see him---which is usually about once a year at some martial arts demo. And you asked about my lineage, it is:
Brian Kennedy (me) learned from Dirk Johnson in San Diego. Mr. Johnson learned from Buck Sam Kong in Hawaii. I am NOT a lineage holder, nor indoor student or any of that jazz.

What it looks like at this point is historical documents on hung gar amount to "not much", which is typical for Chinese martial arts. Truth be told I am not putting a lot of credence on 朱愚崙Zhu Yu-lun book. Although he is listed in the stock hung gar lineages, I suspect he was a Chinese journalist....and that is not a good thing (because they tend to grossly expand their stories, most of the horse**** about the Shaolin temple was generated by two or three different Chinese journalists writing in the 1920s).

Well in any event I will keep you all posted.

take care and thanks again,
Brian

[PM]

Jyu 朱 was a student of Lam Saiwing (see the picture of him with Lam Saiwing at http://www.lghk.org/en/gallery/lsw.htm - left corner). is articles have a lot of very interesting info, but - i defimitelly aggree with the journalst/novelist thing.

all the best, thank you for your interesting posts