Dit da Jow: Useful or Useless

[Flying-Monkey]

I was talking to a pharmacist (Chinese American). He told me that Jow doesn't do as much as people think it does. He said that washing your hands in warm water, drying them (still a little wet) and applying Vaseline or another strong moisturizer after doing iron palm training is best. He said that some of the ingredients are not good for the skin, and it is best not to use it at all.

I heard from other pharmacists that things like tiger balm aren’t the best thing to use.

Has anyone else heard of this?

[Jingwu Man]

I have not heard of these negative effects, but ditdajow works marvels for me, and I love the stuff! I practice Iron fist and Iron arm training, and whenever I get bruises or soreness, I put some jow on the next day and it starts to fade fast. Maybe if you used the stuff everyday it might be bad.

[WinterPalm]

The stuff has always worked for me!
I'm not expert and I don't know most of what goes into the stuff my Sifu makes but I have a training partner that suffered a very severe fall with huge swelling and bruising and the jow applied very liberally took the bruising and swelling down very fast.

[Flying-Monkey]

The stuff has always worked for me!
I'm not expert and I don't know most of what goes into the stuff my Sifu makes but I have a training partner that suffered a very severe fall with huge swelling and bruising and the jow applied very liberally took the bruising and swelling down very fast.

Yeah, but a bag of ice can do the same.

[Yum Cha]

hahahah....

Banging your hands around to build callouses, thicken micro-fractures of hard and soft bone and applying poisons to the skin that kill the nerve endings and promote the callouses/scarring is good for your hands in whose universe?

Iron Palm jau is poison. It contains aresnic, metals, and all sorts of similar crap. You don't do iron palm training, and put on magic jau to make it all better. Iron Palm means you sacrifice your hands for fighting, and pay the ferryman on your way out.

A little Dit ta jau on bruised forearms, or fist prints on your body is not iron palm, don't confuse the two. Jau heals by promoting circulation and letting your body do its job in optimum circumstances. Western medicine talks about cold/heat. Cold for the first few hours and heat thereafter. Not a lot of difference, in my opinion. Boxers always had a witchazel rubdown. Witchazel is jau. So is Ben Gay, Denko Rub, etc, etc... Recipies may vary, and the effectiveness from person to person as well.

It may contain something like speerment oil, or other herbs which many new age lawsuit weary "health consultants" say is "unfriendly" and may cause a reaction in some people, (especially if it gets on the pink bits!) and thus some people say they "can" be bad for you.

[Flying-Monkey]

hahahah....

Banging your hands around to build callouses, thicken micro-fractures of hard and soft bone and applying poisons to the skin that kill the nerve endings and promote the callouses/scarring is good for your hands in whose universe?

Iron Palm jau is poison. It contains aresnic, metals, and all sorts of similar crap. You don't do iron palm training, and put on magic jau to make it all better. Iron Palm means you sacrifice your hands for fighting, and pay the ferryman on your way out.

A little Dit ta jau on bruised forearms, or fist prints on your body is not iron palm, don't confuse the two. Jau heals by promoting circulation and letting your body do its job in optimum circumstances. Western medicine talks about cold/heat. Cold for the first few hours and heat thereafter. Not a lot of difference, in my opinion. Boxers always had a witchazel rubdown. Witchazel is jau. So is Ben Gay, Denko Rub, etc, etc... Recipies may vary, and the effectiveness from person to person as well.

It may contain something like speerment oil, or other herbs which many new age lawsuit weary "health consultants" say is "unfriendly" and may cause a reaction in some people, (especially if it gets on the pink bits!) and thus some people say they "can" be bad for you.


Yes.

I heard from a trainer and a pharmacist not to use Ben gay. They said that those types of treatment are irritants. They kind of trick your brain that eases the pain. It could be bad, because it could hide a serious injury. The person could overwork that treated muscle and make it worse.

[Jingwu Man]

Whoa!
I don't know what kind of Iron fist/arm training you're used to, but that ain't mine.
The main purpose of my schools Iron fist training is to avoid callouses at all costs.
Training is done and steady, and it takes years to see any results, but once they start showing up, they're pretty amazing.
Maybe you shouldn't knock something you haven't tried.

[Shaolinlueb]

i had my chiropractor say icey hot and tiger balm arent that great because they can't get deep down in the body. its mostly a surface thing. if you have a bad pull, it wont do anything. for temp relief on minor stuff he said it works, but go get it checked out.

dit da, i dont know, i have had it work very well on bruise and stuff. as for not being everything we think, i dont doubt it.

[mantiskilla]

Yeah, but a bag of ice can do the same.



i dont think you want to do that. IMO you want to promote circulation, not slow it down. in the long term the ice is not the good option. ive had massive bruises on my shins that i rubbed out and the next day my whole shin was black but about 24hours later it was almost completely gone, along with any pain. with ice it would have been an issue for days if not into weeks.
also, long story, but the short of it is that i used herbs to heal a broken ankle and torn ligaments. avoided surgery and was doing kung fu sooner than i should have been walking according to the sports doctor i visited (one time). also used internal and external herbs for broken ribs. the internal fixed it in 2-3 days. pain was gone and i was able to punch and kick (if you've broken ribs you know it hurts just to breath, i was using my kettlebells the morning after my broken ribs... i dont recommend it).

[lkfmdc]

I'll be blunt, plenty of outright ignorance in this thread....

First of all, to the pharmicist, please explain to them that Dit Da Jow is NOT a moisturizer (sp?)... it is an herbal formula that heals bruises, promotes circulation (ie brings Chi) and also relieves pain....

To Yum Cha, man I'm shocked at your post, you always seem very educated and up on stuff?? :confused: :eek: :confused:

Dit Da Jow is not only used in martial arts, it is used in Dit Da, ie classical Chinese medical practice... it is hardly a deadly poison only used by those seeking death strikes :rolleyes:

Do SOME recipes have poison in them? Why yes they do, that's why you can't drink them. In CTS formulas the poison speeds up the dissolving and mixing of the herbs in the alcohol....

As for lead or other metals, only if the person making them is a fool!!!! :eek: But anything can get contaminated....

Dit Da Jow isn't one formula for those who don't know... there is even a book with 5000 different dit da jow formulas, pretty much every doctor had their own formula at some point

As for good Dit Da Jow, it can do wonders, I know because I've used good Dit Da Jow and I've seen the results

[WinterPalm]

hahahah....

Banging your hands around to build callouses, thicken micro-fractures of hard and soft bone and applying poisons to the skin that kill the nerve endings and promote the callouses/scarring is good for your hands in whose universe?

Iron Palm jau is poison. It contains aresnic, metals, and all sorts of similar crap. You don't do iron palm training, and put on magic jau to make it all better. Iron Palm means you sacrifice your hands for fighting, and pay the ferryman on your way out.

A little Dit ta jau on bruised forearms, or fist prints on your body is not iron palm, don't confuse the two. Jau heals by promoting circulation and letting your body do its job in optimum circumstances. Western medicine talks about cold/heat. Cold for the first few hours and heat thereafter. Not a lot of difference, in my opinion. Boxers always had a witchazel rubdown. Witchazel is jau. So is Ben Gay, Denko Rub, etc, etc... Recipies may vary, and the effectiveness from person to person as well.

It may contain something like speerment oil, or other herbs which many new age lawsuit weary "health consultants" say is "unfriendly" and may cause a reaction in some people, (especially if it gets on the pink bits!) and thus some people say they "can" be bad for you.

After four or so years of doing iron palm two to three times a week, and two years with a fifty-pound bag of steel shot that I literally swing my hands into, I have seen none of this. At one point I was getting callouses on my knuckles and my Sifu made me change my training to avoid this. By all accounts, you cannot tell if someone's hands, forearms, etc, are conditioned if they do it properly. You are probably thinking of the Okniwian guys.

In my experience a bag of ice is very good for swelling that is associated with severe injuries, gooseggs, and contusions, but it does not aid in reducing the bruising and the circulation.
I'm sure there are bad ways just as there are good ways at using and making jow but my Sifu is in his fifties and he doesn't have any of these problems and types at his job as well as has very sensitive and desterous fingers.

[Flying-Monkey]

I'll be blunt, plenty of outright ignorance in this thread....

First of all, to the pharmicist, please explain to them that Dit Da Jow is NOT a moisturizer (sp?)... it is an herbal formula that heals bruises, promotes circulation (ie brings Chi) and also relieves pain....

To Yum Cha, man I'm shocked at your post, you always seem very educated and up on stuff?? :confused: :eek: :confused:

Dit Da Jow is not only used in martial arts, it is used in Dit Da, ie classical Chinese medical practice... it is hardly a deadly poison only used by those seeking death strikes :rolleyes:

Do SOME recipes have poison in them? Why yes they do, that's why you can't drink them. In CTS formulas the poison speeds up the dissolving and mixing of the herbs in the alcohol....

As for lead or other metals, only if the person making them is a fool!!!! :eek: But anything can get contaminated....

Dit Da Jow isn't one formula for those who don't know... there is even a book with 5000 different dit da jow formulas, pretty much every doctor had their own formula at some point

As for good Dit Da Jow, it can do wonders, I know because I've used good Dit Da Jow and I've seen the results

He didn't mean that it was a moisturizer. He was talking about repair to damaged skin. He was basically saying that you don't need it. You just have to keep skin healthily. Plus, he was saying there are some things in jow that aren't good for you.

I know that there are more than one jow and I know that there are many takes of iron training. I have trained in iron palm and my ands are great and I don't use any type of jow.

[Yum Cha]

David,
On a thread like this, ignorance is not good.

Perhaps I wasn't totally clear. Iron Palm Jau is different to dit da Jau. Herein lies the misunderstanding. Two different jaus, two different recipes. And I'm really surprised you didn't know this as well. ;)

And than there is the "Red Sand Palm" which is yet another super version of iron palm....with yet another type of jau, even more caustic and toxic than the other.

And the kind of Iron Palm I'm talking about is permanent and irreversable.

If you want to call conditioning your hands "iron palm", well, I'm not the terminology police - light, medium, heavy, intense, obsessive...whatever. But any way you look at it, banging your hands around injures them, however slightly, and the healing makes them stronger. Bone, tendon, muscle, vessel.... Nerve endings are deadened. Just like sam sing. Does anybody disagree with that?

Does anybody disagree with what I said, if so, what do you think happens instead?

And yes, without qualification, jau helps, I don't want that point to be lost. Slow and steady training, use jau, and stop when it hurts. Jau is also good for contusions, stasis and swelling, like when you get your a$$ kicked.

What set me off is the generic use of "Iron Palm" for basic conditioning, i.e. the slapping of phone books, canvas wall bags filled with shot and stuff like that. Real iron palm is dangerous stuff, not to be trifled with. You use exercise, impact, heat, friction and special jau that is toxic.

Winterpalm and Jingwu, is this the kind of Iron Palm training you do?

Sifu tells me all the old retired enforcers in Guangzhou always meet and eat at the same special restaurant. They have pretty girls to feed them and hold their tea cups while they talk about their glory days...

And for the record, my hands are pretty hard, but, I only started using jau maybe 20 years ago. I quit doing the hardcore impact conditioning 10 years ago. I still train to harden phoenix on one side and tiger claw on the other. Been there, done that, not just talking rubbish.

Monkey,
Ben Gay and other western meds have pain killers like asprin in them, thus the reason that you can injure yourself because you don't feel the pain. But the pain killers are temporary, they'll probably wear off before your next training session.

Anti inflamatories are another treatment...

[Flying-Monkey]

Monkey,
Ben Gay and other western meds have pain killers like asprin in them, thus the reason that you can injure yourself because you don't feel the pain. But the pain killers are temporary, they'll probably wear off before your next training session.

Anti inflamatories are another treatment...

Bengay irritates the skin. The active ingredients are Methyl Salicylate and Menthol. They kind of trick the mind. It is like when you tell your friend that you have a toothache and he stomps on your foot; you stop feeling the toothache.

[Yum Cha]

Bengay irritates the skin. The active ingredients are Methyl Salicylate and Menthol.

Wintergreen (Methyl Salicylate) is common in oil based jaus too. I forget the chinese, but technically, oil based jaus aren't jau, they are something else. Jau is alcohol based.

Causes allergic reaction in some people, true.

That "irritation" you refer to doesn't trick the mind, it enhances circulation.

Anyway, there are many alternatives, many different types and options, and that's really the crux of the issue.

[Jingwu Man]

The Iron fist training starts off with hand clenching the air 100 times, then you swing your arms to get circulation to your hands.
After that you lightly tap a bag of sand lying on a table with a relaxed fist 100 times. Then you tap your fist againstsomething hard (we use our stone pillars in our hall) 100 times. After that it's back to the sand tapping.
We have Iron fist Jow and bruise Jow, and other medicines for bones and sinews.
All of it is made the father of one of our students who used to do it in China.

I hope that everything is healthy and safe, but I do get the point that is being made.

[mantiskilla]

David,
On a thread like this, ignorance is not good.

Perhaps I wasn't totally clear. Iron Palm Jau is different to dit da Jau. Herein lies the misunderstanding. Two different jaus, two different recipes. And I'm really surprised you didn't know this as well. ;)

And than there is the "Red Sand Palm" which is yet another super version of iron palm....with yet another type of jau, even more caustic and toxic than the other.

And the kind of Iron Palm I'm talking about is permanent and irreversable.

If you want to call conditioning your hands "iron palm", well, I'm not the terminology police - light, medium, heavy, intense, obsessive...whatever. But any way you look at it, banging your hands around injures them, however slightly, and the healing makes them stronger. Bone, tendon, muscle, vessel.... Nerve endings are deadened. Just like sam sing. Does anybody disagree with that?

Does anybody disagree with what I said, if so, what do you think happens instead?

And yes, without qualification, jau helps, I don't want that point to be lost. Slow and steady training, use jau, and stop when it hurts. Jau is also good for contusions, stasis and swelling, like when you get your a$$ kicked.

What set me off is the generic use of "Iron Palm" for basic conditioning, i.e. the slapping of phone books, canvas wall bags filled with shot and stuff like that. Real iron palm is dangerous stuff, not to be trifled with. You use exercise, impact, heat, friction and special jau that is toxic.

Winterpalm and Jingwu, is this the kind of Iron Palm training you do?

Sifu tells me all the old retired enforcers in Guangzhou always meet and eat at the same special restaurant. They have pretty girls to feed them and hold their tea cups while they talk about their glory days...

And for the record, my hands are pretty hard, but, I only started using jau maybe 20 years ago. I quit doing the hardcore impact conditioning 10 years ago. I still train to harden phoenix on one side and tiger claw on the other. Been there, done that, not just talking rubbish.

Monkey,
Ben Gay and other western meds have pain killers like asprin in them, thus the reason that you can injure yourself because you don't feel the pain. But the pain killers are temporary, they'll probably wear off before your next training session.

Anti inflamatories are another treatment...





I seem to remember my sifu telling me something about iron palm jow in which they would put rusty nails, etc. (literally 'iron palm'...iron going into the body) into the jow...sounds like really bad stuff. He also mentioned the same thing about having to have other people holding your tea cups etc. when you get old. Anyway, he wont teach it to anyone because he said there is no point in today's world...hitting the bag is enough.

[lunghushan]

hahahah....

Banging your hands around to build callouses, thicken micro-fractures of hard and soft bone and applying poisons to the skin that kill the nerve endings and promote the callouses/scarring is good for your hands in whose universe?

Iron Palm jau is poison. It contains aresnic, metals, and all sorts of similar crap. You don't do iron palm training, and put on magic jau to make it all better. Iron Palm means you sacrifice your hands for fighting, and pay the ferryman on your way out.


??? And you call yourself a Bak Mei student. ???

[Yum Cha]

In pak mei we condition the soul and the heart, not just the hands.

You start by putting small children into a canvas bag and suspending it chest high....

[lunghushan]

In pak mei we condition the soul and the heart, not just the hands.

You start by putting small children into a canvas bag and suspending it chest high....

Okay then ... :)

No, seriously, there's some post by the Bak Mei people in Vancouver outlining their training of boiling the hands and stuff and I don't think that's a very good idea.

But what do I know, I'm not in Bak Mei.

[Yum Cha]

Okay then ... :)

No, seriously, there's some post by the Bak Mei people in Vancouver outlining their training of boiling the hands and stuff and I don't think that's a very good idea.

But what do I know, I'm not in Bak Mei.

I know the Sifu in Vancouver you're talking about, and I think you'll find that he probably said, they used to do things like that for the iron palm training but because of the results, they no longer will.

He has one of the old school iron palm recipes but he will no longer pass it on or make it because he has students who have ruined their hands. Now, they are a pretty hardcore lot, and when he says that, you have to listen.

[lunghushan]

I know the Sifu in Vancouver you're talking about, and I think you'll find that he probably said, they used to do things like that for the iron palm training but because of the results, they no longer will.

He has one of the old school iron palm recipes but he will no longer pass it on or make it because he has students who have ruined their hands. Now, they are a pretty hardcore lot, and when he says that, you have to listen.

The thing that I found that seemed the worst was 'iron fist', training the closed fist by banging it into things (makiwara, sand, whatever), which seems to cause a lot of stiffness. I don't recommend that to anybody.

When I was at World Oyama Karate, they used to pound on the makiwara and posts, and really built up their knuckles with callouses, and that's just wrong, IMHO.

Anyways, somebody said NASA is actually developing some sort of bone density machine that pounds on the bones a little bit because in zero-G the bones lose calcium because of lack of stress. That should be interesting if it actually does come out.

[Yum Cha]

Yea, I read about the NASA research. Something important for long term space travel.

On a similar note, they found that for the old girls that get oestioperosis (sp?) a bit of impact aerobics improves bone density.

So, I think it rings true, use it or lose it. Stress increases bone density. Theoretically, stressing them should increase the amount of bone as well, theoretically. Over how many years? etc, etc...

I think the issues come in when tendons and cartlidge begin to get the same treatment. And I think slow and steady seems to be the best solution, like Jing Wu man mentioned earlier on in this thread. And there are tradeoffs, even at lower level.

But still, you have to ask yourself, why? So you can hit hard stuff? Boiling (well, not BOILING, but using heat and salting your hands) is something boxers and bare knuckle boxers did to keep from cutting up their hands in a fight.

Simple physics tells us, mass times the speed of light squared equals energy. Iron palm does not make your hands faster or measurably heavier, thus, there is no more energy released.

Its about pain/endurance, and psychological.

Heavy bag training works up the wrist muscles, teaches you to focus your energy and aim.

My philosophy is aiming for vulnerable targets is more efficient than smashing at hard targets.

[lunghushan]

But still, you have to ask yourself, why? So you can hit hard stuff? Boiling (well, not BOILING, but using heat and salting your hands) is something boxers and bare knuckle boxers did to keep from cutting up their hands in a fight.


No, not so you can hit hard stuff, but when people wrap up their hands before fighting because they worry about breaking their hands, it's always kindof funny.

But salting up their hands and all that, I don't know about that. It seemed like the boiling the hands before the tournament thing was a bad shortcut. But I'm not in Bak Mei, so I don't know.

[TenTigers]

in a nutshell, wolf's law states that consistant and gradual stress placed upon a bone will increase its density. This is where your iron palm and nasa studies meet. The hot water is only one part of the component, to increse circulation, which is why tcm does not advocate rice but heat and massage. cold causes stagnation, slows healing and exacerbates the injury. callouses are not the goal of makiwara. These are simply pioeces of the puzzles. look at them. put it together. it's all there.

[Jingwu Man]

Yum Cha, your definitely right about the psychological aspects of Iron fist/palm
training. The way my teacher puts it, the training is to not mind the pain and shock that comes from hitting a target, so that when you do need to use it, you can just belt out a heavy strike and not hold back anything for fear of damage. You can just beat.