View Full Version : chi vampirisum
CareBear
12-12-2006, 12:40 AM
Not sure if this is the right forum, but i gota ask :)
I have read a few thing about chi vampirisum, but the informations i got was interesting and a bit disturbing.
Can anybody give me a bit more info on this ?
thank you
onyomi
12-13-2006, 06:37 AM
No such thing. You're thinking of "psychic vampirism," which is something only people who do Wicca-type silliness believe in.
CareBear
12-13-2006, 08:20 AM
thank you for the info.
was reading it on a website but i think thay got mix up 2 :)
thanks again
Well, a healer can give his qi away to heal other. Wouldn't it be possible to reverse the procedure to receive instead of giving.
Yup. It's a form of death magic you want nothing to do with.
Sang Feng Fan
12-14-2006, 07:57 PM
There are such things as jing thieves and they are to be avoided.
TaiXu
12-14-2006, 10:05 PM
I heard that there is in China, but they usually steal it from trees and they can only steal Yin qi. It would be a useless skill. Better off just doing qi gong practice since Yin qi usually makes peoples skill color off. Their skin looks like its a sick yellow, blue, or the worst gross looking pasty white.
The best kind is primordial qi of the dan tian (which supposedly a great master can take it if his level is high enough).
Practicing qi under a tree has a medical healing effect of utilising wood qi to improve the deficiency of wood organ (liver).
There are abundant of qi around us which is stronger than our own qi. So people make use of the nature to cultivate qi.
Qi will always flow from the strong area to a weaker area. Nature qi is stronger than our body qi.
If you have strong qi, your qi would naturally flow to your mate who is having a weaker qi. That is the nature of the law of equilibrium. It is like a stronger battery would charge up the weaker battery until both are the same voltage. Hence, the qi transfer.
TaiXu
12-16-2006, 03:14 AM
Doesn't different trees have different qi. I heard something briefly about this. Like this tree has yellow qi and that tree has white qi?
I don't know about using specific sources of qi, I prefer energy that is free in the air. So I don't interfere in other peoples things. Even trees are a life.
Every living thing has a specific frequency which may vary even with the same species. When you are in deep meditation, you would see qi energy in the form of light (s) of a specific colour depending on the stage or level you are at the time of meditation. As your level of qi is changed so is your body frequency and hence the colour you see.
Meditation under a tree would be influenced by the tree (frequency) and hence the seeing of different colour which is depended on the type and size of tree. So people may say this tree has a yellow qi or red qi.
As you say, you prefer qi in the air, so let the nature harmonise yourself and make use of the freely available qi in the air or surrounding living nature.
Justaguy
12-16-2006, 09:46 PM
I don't really understand why anyone would get into qi vampirism.
Sure its possible, you can draw in energy from just about anything - mountains, the earth, sky, trees, the ocean, etc.
But negative connotations of vampirism asside, are people even a good source of energy?
I don't see how it could really harm someone unless you were strong enough to drain them of an incredible amount of qi.
If anyone has first hand experience with this I'd be interested in hearing it...
scholar
12-17-2006, 04:46 PM
It is a metaphor for anyone who seeks to impose their will on another for an advantage. Anyone who takes what doesn't belong to them. Whatever advantage that may be: financial or material, political (who's alpha male or female?), sexual, psychic, whatever.
So, politicians, salesmen (who lean in psychically to sell things to people they don't need), bullies, frauds (see Juna's Falun Gong thread), etc., are all trying to steal things people have invested their time and energy into. They are taking that which doesn't belong to them, and weighing themselves down with dread karma (to use the Buddhist terminolgy, Taoists called it "blame") in the process.
So, how do people who really do treat others well avoid this? First off, to mix metaphors yet more, turn the other cheek. Don't resent people who try it on you. That locks you into their cycle and it is a lot harder to shake them off. You still tell them to shove off, but without dwelling on it internally. Treat everyone you meet as if they were the Buddha, love your neighbour as yourself, etc. Feel sorry for them instead of getting angry, because the anger is what they want.
It is as simple as a decision. If you know who you are and what you are working on to improve yourself, then you can decide that no one can take your energy or spirit. You protect yourself by saying, "No, thanks" and meaning it. Very often you'll see statues of bodhisattvas holding the left hand up, palm outward, meaning just that.
NewToChen
12-18-2006, 05:12 AM
Well said, Scholar.
I dunno anything about the subject, but I thought your reply was just outstanding.
cheers
TenTigers
12-20-2006, 09:11 AM
the Buddha said,"If someone offers you a gift, and you choose not to recieve it, whom does it belong to?"
I don't really understand why anyone would get into qi vampirism.
Sure its possible, you can draw in energy from just about anything - mountains, the earth, sky, trees, the ocean, etc.
But negative connotations of vampirism asside, are people even a good source of energy?
I don't see how it could really harm someone unless you were strong enough to drain them of an incredible amount of qi.
If anyone has first hand experience with this I'd be interested in hearing it...
When you take in someone's energy, you're taking in all the vibes put into that energy by the target. Most people are royally screwed up that by taking on their crap, even if you aren't that keenly aware of the specifics, it isn't good. Just because you don't notice some of the bad stuff you're taking in, that doen't mean that energy has zero effect on you or your surroundings. I prefer drawing from the universe itself, while it's in a more pure form and not connected to the crap a lot of people put in theirs. It's not very "energetically sanitary". Qi vamping is more suited to fighting circumstances, redirecting it elsewhere (like the ground), while you step out of the way and push their material body.
MonkeyKingUSA
01-15-2007, 05:24 AM
No such thing. You're thinking of "psychic vampirism," which is something only people who do Wicca-type silliness believe in.
Actually that would be against Wiccan teachings since the first and only rule is, "Do no harm".
Though psychic vampirism is practiced by some involved in the occult and it could be done through qigong.
TenTigers
01-16-2007, 07:56 AM
to go a step further, Wiccan beliefs state that not only should you do no harm to others, but also to yourselves as well. Psychi vampirism harms all those involved.
MM,MP,BB;)
I beleive it is possible to steal a persons chi.
This is one of the main reasons I stopped practicing the spiritual parts of the Chinese Southern Styles....it is too connected to deity worship . I am a christian and DO believe in demon spirits, I believe they can masquarade as just about anything once you enter the spirit realm...so mu strong advice is to not get involved at all with these things we know little about.
One of my Instructors advised me a long time ago NOT to allow anyone to know the exact time of day I meditated or or pacticed meditative Chi-Kung.
Sometimes a person may secretly not like you, be jealous of your Martial ability...or just a thief.
Psychic Vampire
A psychic vampire is a person who connects with your chi (pronounced chee) or life force energy and takes it for his/her own purposes. This person may touch you even casually or just come close to you. You feel drained.
http://www.amazon.com/Psychic-Vampires-Protection-Predators-Parasites/dp/0738701912
It is a real danger so I would advice caution.
Soo Ma Tai
01-17-2007, 01:03 AM
"No such thing. You're thinking of "psychic vampirism," which is something only people who do Wicca-type silliness believe in."
One a side note, have some respect, Wicca is no more silly than Christianity or Qigong. It is a matter of belief, pure and simple.
I beleive it is possible to steal a persons chi.
One of my Instructors advised me a long time ago NOT to allow anyone to know the exact time of day I meditated or or pacticed meditative Chi-Kung.
Good idea not telling anyone about that, such forms of meditation don't make you necessarily vulnerable in that you take down a barrier, but it's like "jumping in the ring" Once you're in, you're free game. It's like materializing yourself somewhere, you can't be a target until they name you.
Good idea not telling anyone about that, such forms of meditation don't make you necessarily vulnerable in that you take down a barrier, but it's like "jumping in the ring" Once you're in, you're free game. It's like materializing yourself somewhere, you can't be a target until they name you.
Well put....and a good point.
Thanks for the clarification..
JD
scholar
01-20-2007, 11:56 PM
"No such thing. You're thinking of "psychic vampirism," which is something only people who do Wicca-type silliness believe in."
One a side note, have some respect, Wicca is no more silly than Christianity or Qigong. It is a matter of belief, pure and simple.
I think qigong should be more than a matter of belief. That is why I like martial qigong. If it helps with your training - coordination, balance, stamina etc., then it has an objective benefit that is more useful (and reliably teachable to others) than subjective belief. You can pare away the mystical and just use the word qi in its original sense, breath, and save a lot of time, IME.
New religions, like wicca, falungong, etc., are from a positioning that relies entirely on personality. Wicca was made up by an Englishman named Gardner in the 1950s and falungong by Li Hongzhi in the 1990s. They used language reminiscent of older religions, but what they promoted was almost entirely their own personal preferences.
Most older religions had an ethic that, at least in their formative periods, was designed to encourage a stable society. What most believers have done since then isn't pretty, but there was originally a useful point to them that has since been mostly lost, IMO.
In my opinion..."Wicca" is to Witchcraft and Satanism what the Boy Scouts are to the American Military
Preparation.
Wicca is said to be the worship of nature and natural forces...in truth, it is worshipping the CREATION instead of the Creator.
I know this next illustration is not going to be popular...but I need to tell the truth.
The first 2 images below are satanic signs called A Pentagram
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/4199/batpentagram21hx.th.jpg (http://img258.imageshack.us/my.php?image=batpentagram21hx.jpg)
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/3100/invertedpentagram9xq.th.jpg (http://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=invertedpentagram9xq.jpg)
Now note the Martial Arts version:
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/2748/kyushojutsuii76pr.th.gif (http://img254.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kyushojutsuii76pr.gif)
Waaaaay to similiar to be a coincidence.
I am not saying this is done on purpose...it is just that the devil has disussed himself in so many ways...we would be foolish to think he "left out" such an Old Culture as Chinese Cosmotology....
JMHO
JD
In my opinion..."Wicca" is to Witchcraft and Satanism what the Boy Scouts are to the American Military
Preparation.
Wicca is said to be the worship of nature and natural forces...in truth, it is worshipping the CREATION instead of the Creator.
I know this next illustration is not going to be popular...but I need to tell the truth.
The first 2 images below are satanic signs called A Pentagram
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/4199/batpentagram21hx.th.jpg (http://img258.imageshack.us/my.php?image=batpentagram21hx.jpg)
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/3100/invertedpentagram9xq.th.jpg (http://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=invertedpentagram9xq.jpg)
Now note the Martial Arts version:
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/2748/kyushojutsuii76pr.th.gif (http://img254.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kyushojutsuii76pr.gif)
Waaaaay to similiar to be a coincidence.
I am not saying this is done on purpose...it is just that the devil has disussed himself in so many ways...we would be foolish to think he "left out" such an Old Culture as Chinese Cosmotology....
JMHO
JD
Well, traditionally, there was no "star" displaying the elements. That's just a new-age way of displaying it drawn from Yoga.
As for the pentagram, it isn't the sign of the devil. It was a pagan symbol that meant divine protection, or something like that. In the 20th century, because of movies like The Omen, we have a warped view of these things. The pentagram was taken from pagans in the same way that the swastika was taken from the Hindus. So there's no biblical reference to the pentegram. For all intensive purposes nowadays, however, it is the sign of the devil because "satanists" (a.k.a. atheists who like to **** people off) use it. We have to remember that symbols are just ways that man tries to pin evil down, to name it and give it a form. It's a similar thing we do to death, which we try to give form so that we may "fight against" it. I'm not saying that evil doesn't exist or anything, I'm just saying that man has been trying to pin it down for millennia and it never works.
I like the way you think, though. You're wary-ness seems to somehow prevent stagnation.
I believe that the deeper you enter into the Internal Arts...the more you risk;
The Circle Walking and Elemental Theory and Cycles are really Occult....
Consider these Pic's:
http://img180.imageshack.us/my.php?image=baquaii9cd.jpg
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/5897/baquaii9cd.jpg (http://imageshack.us) [b]Please note the PENTAGRAM within....
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/8067/baphomatii6aa.th.gif (http://img266.imageshack.us/my.php?image=baphomatii6aa.gif)
http://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?image=baquaii4mu.jpg
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/8910/baquaii4mu.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?image=occultking7hp.gif
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/392/occultking7hp.th.gif (http://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?image=occultking7hp.gif)
If a bagua is a pentagram, then this is really Nazi propaganda: http://librarynazi.ytmnd.com/
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/6356/pakuacounteractingix92vy.gif (http://imageshack.us)
http://img255.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pakuacounteractingix92vy.gif
Please note the pentagram inside the Paqua Circle.
THIS is the picture I meant to post before ( sorry)
Again..I do not think this a purposeful attempt of any Master, Style or Martial Artist.
I just think when you compare all the evidence , we will find a re-occurring pattern .
Please stay tuned and hear me out.
Believe it or not I WANT to be wrong! As I have said from the beginning I love the Arts
but if they conflict with my faith and the Inspired Word of God ( the Bible)....I must
obey the Lord.
JD
EVEN "POKEMAN" (Pocket Monsters in Japenese) has incorperated many occult thems and terms to our children..the following are a partial list.
Psychic: That which is spiritualistic.
Magical Stones: Called Elemental Stones
Fire Stone
Water Stone
Leaf Stone
Thunder Stone
Moon Stone
Evolve: The doctrine in which higher life forms have gradually arisen out of lower.
Jynx: The bird used in spells, name means a spell or charm.
Curse: To invoke evil upon.
Magical: Producing marvellous results by compelling the aid of spirits.
Fangs: The venom-tooth of a serpent.
Hypnosis: Placing a person in an altered state of consciousness making them suspectible to the will of another entity or person.
Mesmerizing: Hypnotizing.
Mental energy: Mental telepathy - a communication between mind and mind.
Focus energy: Another form of mental energy.
Mind powers: Another form of mental energy.
Mind reading: Another form of mental energy.
Martial Arts: A form of defense connected to Eastern mysticism.
Karate: A form of martial arts.
Teleport: Astral travel.
Aurora: The goddess of dawn.
Ghost: A spirit appearing after death.
Meditate: To put oneself in an altered state of consciousness. THIS OPENS THE MIND AND SPIRIT UP FOR ENTRANCE OF VARIOUS EVIL SPIRITS
Self-destruct: Suicide, to kill oneself intentionally.
Mirage: Something illusory.
Ninja: One of a body of trained assassins in feudal Japan.
Transform: To be changed in form or substance.
Mystical: Involving a sacred or a secret meaning hidden from the eyes of the ordinary person, only revealed to a spiritually enlightened mind.
Mythical: Relating to an ancient traditional story of gods or heroes.
Hindu Mark: Religious ritual expressing worship to a Hindu God.
TM/HM: Transcendental Meditation
All-Seeing Eye: Represents the third eye of occultists and New Agers, as well as Masons.
Yin/Yang: Two opposing principles of Chinese philosophy and religion influencing destiny, the former negative, feminine and dark, the latter positive, masculine and light.
Lightening Bolt: A satanic symbol representing the gods of thunder (Thor, Set, Zeus, and Jupiter). Satanists love to use the lightening or thunderbolt.
Pentagram is
[a] five-pointed star, often held to have magical or mystical significance, formed by five straight lines connecting the vertices of a pentagon and enclosing another pentagon in the completed figure.
- Source: The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language
As a religious symbol, the pentacle (or pentagram) is used by both Satanists and Wiccans. However, both groups use the symbol in different ways, and assign different meanings to it.
Those differences are explained in a FAQ provided by Witches Voice, the most prominent Wicca site on the net:
Q: So why do you use that “Satanic” symbol?
A: The pentagram, or five pointed star, is not Satanic. Pythagoras used it as a symbol of health and his followers wore them in order to recognize one another. In Medieval times, some Christian knights used the pentagram as their symbol. To modern Wiccans the pentagram means many things; The five points correspond to the elements Air, Earth, Fire and Water with the top point corresponding to “Spirit”. The pentagram in a circle may also represent a human with their legs and arms outstretched, surrounded by universal wisdom or the “Goddess” - humankind at one with the environment. Many Witches and other pagan practitioners do not wear the pentacle at all, but have other symbols of special meaning to them.
Satanists turn the symbol upside-down, which puts the elements of Fire and Earth at the top (Fire symbolizes willpower and passion and Earth, prosperity and earthly goods) and Spirit, spirituality, at the bottom. Satanists also turn the cross upside-down. This, in itself, does not make the cross or pentagram a Satanic symbol. In some Wiccan traditions, the reversed pentagram is a symbol of “second degree” status - one who has been elevated from “initiate”. To members of these traditions, the reversed pentagram is considered highly positive and has no connection to Satanism. A symbol is simply an image or mark in itself. It is the mind and the beliefs of the beholder which attribute to it a particular meaning.
- Source: Witch/Wiccan F.A.Q.s, Witchvox.com
The terms pentacle and pentagram are often used interchangeably, but most Wiccans say they are somewhat different. A pentagram is simply a five-pointed star, while a pentacle surrounds the star with a circle.
Both pentacles and pentagrams are ancient symbols that have been used by many different religions, including Christianity and Judaism. Wiccans trace their use of the symbols back to the ancient Celts, whose earth-based religion serves as a model for many modern pagan groups.
Many people mistakenly associate the pentacle with Satanism. In fact, Satanists generally use an upside-down pentacle, often with a goat’s head in the center.
- Source: Witches fight for symbols on gravestones, The Salem News, via the Henry Daily Herald, USA, Jan. 20, 2006
http://newsletters.cephasministry.com/newage5-99.html
Mr Punch
01-21-2007, 03:53 PM
You
are
an
idiot.
Idiots let the Enemy in.
If there were an enemy that is.
There are no such things as demons.
There is no such thing as evil as an entity.
Nor good.
Idiots in denial of the amoral instincts and impulses of the human animal, who scapegoat some mythological enemy and blame everyone else who doesn't share in their same warped view of existance are the Enemy.
Edit: sorry, forgot the
:)
You
are
an
idiot.
So because I am a christian, who has posted articles and Links with my opinions..I'M THE IDIOT ? :confused:
Idiots let the Enemy in.
If there were an enemy that is.
There are no such things as demons.
There is no such thing as evil as an entity.
Nor good.
No such thing as evil or good eh ?
I would love to hear your explanation for 6000 years of violence, bloodshed, and general depravity on the part of mankind....interspursed with random acts of kindness, love and good deeds.
Idiots in denial of the amoral instincts and impulses of the human animal, who scapegoat some mythological enemy and blame everyone else who doesn't share in their same warped view of existance are the Enemy.
Edit: sorry, forgot the
:)
Man is not a "animal"
We are created in the image and likeness of God.
Sin entered the World and we have lived in a depraved state ever since.
Jesus Christ, a historical Figure,,,,worked Miracles for 3 1/2 years...rose from the dead...showed himself to many for 40 days following his Resurrection ( over 500 at one time in one instance) and his followers continue to serve Him Today.
I dont blame everything on the devil....man has a spirit of our own that is perfectly capable of the most dispicable acts imaginable...and also the ability to rise to great heights of nobility.
Over 200 direct Old Testament promises concerning Jesus Birth ALL came true..though written Centuries before his Birth.
I have every logical reason to believe all the promises of His Future return will also be fullfilled.
IF the God of the Bible is True ( and I believe the Ultimate Proof was His Son...)then the devil must be real also.
The Bible says that Heaven is sweet...but that means Hell is also as real and bad as Jesus described.
JDK
But what about the fact that half of the stuff you attribute to "satanism" was deemed "evil" by the Catholic church centuries later?
But what about the fact that half of the stuff you attribute to "satanism" was deemed "evil" by the Catholic church centuries later?
The Catholic Church is not Biblical Christianty. I dont say this because I hate catholics..or because I belong to some religious Cult.
I simply represent non-denomination True Biblical Christianity....
They didnt "come to power" until almost 300 AD.
They perverted what Jesus taught, slaughtered thousands to try and force them to convert to Roman Catholicism, promoted Mary Worship, Saint Worship and even took something as simple as Communion...and perverted it into "Mass"
resembling NOTHING like what the Lord or his disciples and the Early Chrurch practiced. All of these things are forbidden in the Bible...and yet they didnt allow or encourage Catholics to even read God's Holy Word until fairly recent times.
Here are a couple Links you might want to read when and if you have time:)
http://www.chick.com/information/religions/catholicism/
http://tcftalk.suddenlaunch.com/index.cgi?board=Trial
JDK
It is no secret that I and others have posted many articles on the Roman Catholic Institution over the past two and a-half years on this website.
My personal in-depth study of Catholicism began back in 1980
I remember wanting to look at this Organization (that claims 50 percent of "christians" in our Country, and around the World,) with a non biased honest approach. Since I had no formal religious training in Catholicism or Protestant denominations....I know I examined the claims of both with prayer and study of the Word of God.
Allow me to re-post an article from the summer of 2004:
Romanism Part II
« Reply #1 on: Jul 8th, 2004, 12:44pm »
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 . Prayers for the dead . …………-------------------……300 A.D.
2. Making the sign of the cross ………………………… …300 A.D.
3. Veneration of angels & dead saints …………---------…….375 A.D.
4. Use of images in worship………………………………… . 375 A.D.
5. The Mass as a daily celebration……………………………… 394 A.D.
6 Beginning of the exaltation of Mary; the term, "Mother of God" applied a Council of Ephesus……………. .----------------------------------------- 431 A.D.
7 Extreme Unction (Last Rites)……………………………… ..526 A.D.
8. Doctrine of Purgatory-Gregory 1…………………………… .593 A.D..
9. Prayers to Mary & dead saints ……………………………… .600 A.D.
10. Worship of cross, images & relics ……………………… … 786 A.D.
11 Canonization of dead saints ………………………………… ..995 A.D.
12. Celibacy of priesthood …………………………………… …1079 A.D.
13. The Rosary ……………………………………………… … 1090 A.D.
14. Indulgences ……………………………………………… …..1190 A.D.
15. Transubstantiation-Innocent III …………………………… 1215 A.D.
16. Auricular Confession of sins to a priest …………………… 1215 A.D.
17. Adoration of the wafer (Host)…………………………… .. 1220 A.D.
18. Cup forbidden to the people at communion …………………..1414 A.D.
19. Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma……………………………..1439 A.D.
20. The doctrine of the Seven Sacraments confirmed …………….1439 A.D.
21 Tradition declared of equal authority with Bible by Council of Trent…………………………………………----------------… 1545 A.D.
22. Apocryphal books added to Bible ………------------……….1546 A.D.
23. Immaculate Conception of Mary……………………………….1854 A.D.
24, Infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals, proclaimed by the Vatican Council ……………… 1870 A.D.
25. Assumption of the Virgin Mary (bodily ascension into heaven shortly after her death) ……………………………-----------------------------------……1950 A.D.
26. Mary proclaimed Mother of the Church……………………… 1965 A.D.
http://tcftalk.suddenlaunch.com/index.cgi?board=ROME&action=display&num=1089299214&start=
Although some of the preceding Roman Catholic heresies are now being questioned by many, both inside and outside the church, none have been officially repudiated and all continue to be practiced by millions of Catholics around the world. The urgent need today is for Roman Catholics; yes, and all who claim to be Christians, to examine their own beliefs and the teachings of their churches by the only sure standard-the Bible. Whatever contradicts, adds to or subtracts from the sixty-six books of the Old and the New Testaments, is error no matter how many may cling to it.
Roman Catholics who read the Bible will soon discover that many Catholic teachings and practices are specifically forbidden by Jesus Christ Himself. Note carefully the following warnings given by the Lord Jesus Christ to the religious leaders of His day concerning vain worship, vain tradition and vain repetitions. All of these are particularly applicable to Roman Catholicism today.
Vain Worship-In Matthew 15:8-9, Jesus said, 'This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth and honoreth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the command men of men." All worship is indeed vain when it is based upon the commandments of men rather than the Word of God.
Vain Tradition-In Matthew 15:6b, Jesus said, 'Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. "
(Note): Valid tradition is based upon Scripture and confirms it. Vain tradition is based upon man's teachings and violates it. In Roman Catholicism, tradition is consistently elevated above the Scripture which results in vain worship (no matter how sincere) and makes the commandment of God of no effect-a very serious matter.
Vain Repetitions-In Matthew 6:7, Jesus said, "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking."
A basic part of Roman Catholic worship is the frequent repetition of The Rosary whose origin is clearly tied to heathen religions such as Hinduism, Islam, and Buddhism. Roman Catholics should listen to the words of Christ forbidding vain repetitions, rather than using the vain repetitions of Catholicism.
During the past forty years, at least three important trends in the Roman Catholic Church are clearly observable. These are: (1) A greater emphasis upon the place of Mary. (2) A major emphasis upon ecumenical activities with a view to seeking the full visible unity of all religions. (3) The acceptance of the so-called Charismatic renewal within the Church with new emphasis upon the claimed "ministry of the Holy Spirit."
There is every reason to believe that all of these major trends will continue and increase; and, all of them are very deceptive, very dangerous, very unscriptural.
The place accorded Mary in the Roman Catholic Church is not Scriptural nor is it new, but it cannot be denied that, during the last one hundred years, veneration of Mary has dramatically increased, Note in the historical chart given earlier in this article that the exaltation of Mary and the term, Mother of God, became official Catholic dogma in 431 A.D.). with prayers to her proclaimed in 600 A.D. But, note also that the "Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mat)@" was not proclaimed until 1854; her "Assumption" not until 1950; and her title "Mother of the Church" not until as recently as 1965.
The Catholic Church is not Biblical Christianty. I dont say this because I hate catholics..or because I belong to some religious Cult.
I simply represent non-denomination True Biblical Christianity....
They didnt "come to power" until almost 300 AD.
They perverted what Jesus taught, slaughtered thousands to try and force them to convert to Roman Catholicism, promoted Mary Worship, Saint Worship and even took something as simple as Communion...and perverted it into "Mass"
resembling NOTHING like what the Lord or his disciples and the Early Chrurch practiced. All of these things are forbidden in the Bible...and yet they didnt allow or encourage Catholics to even read God's Holy Word until fairly recent times.
Here are a couple Links you might want to read when and if you have time:)
http://www.chick.com/information/religions/catholicism/
http://tcftalk.suddenlaunch.com/index.cgi?board=Trial
JDK
No no, what I'm saying is that the Catholic Church said certain symbols/rituals were evil when they didn't have the right too, I'm not saying that I agree with them. By the way, the enemy feeds on fear, superstition and people like you, please stop trying to destroy the world by purging all evil from it. I know that you want the apocalypse to come, but I just can't allow that to happen on my shift. Continuity is my charge, and nothing will be allowed to harm it until I have been beaten dead and my spirit exhausted. Instead of elaborating on the good and true knowlege of the bible, you instead apply the stagnant aspects of common protestant and catholic faith to other parts of your daily life.
NJM,
You said "No no, what I'm saying is that the Catholic Church said certain symbols/rituals were evil when they didn't have the right too, I'm not saying that I agree with them. By the way, the enemy feeds on fear, superstition and people like you, please stop trying to destroy the world by purging all evil from it. I know that you want the apocalypse to come, but I just can't allow that to happen on my shift.
Where did that come form ?????:confused: I have no ability to purge the world form all evil..I have a hard enough time trying to live holy in my own life!:o
And for the record, I do NOT want the apocalypse ( whatever you mean by that) to "come"..and what do you mean by "not on your shift", and also please elaborate on who you refer to as the enemy.
Continuity is my charge, and nothing will be allowed to harm it until I have been beaten dead and my spirit exhausted. Instead of elaborating on the good and true knowlege of the bible, you instead apply the stagnant aspects of common protestant and catholic faith to other parts of your daily life.
Say What ?
I believe Jesus came in the flesh so that we can share The Good News that He offers salvation to everyone! Unfortunately this particuliar thread deals with a spiritual reality that many deny...but am to not speak the truth, when I have spent the last 30 years dealing with things in the spirit realm?
I just offer my opinion that there are 3 Sources of Power in the World.
1) The God of the Bible our Creator
2) The Power of our own Human Spirit
3) The devil, Satan, the former prize Cherib of Heaven that attempted to overthrow God ages ago before the Earth was created and was cast out of Heaven, along with a third part of the Angels he managed to convince to join him in his rebellion.
My hope, and sincere desire is that we obey God's Word and avoid being taken in by spiritual forces we do not and can not understand.
I could give you countless Scriptures on the above info,,,,,but only if you request them.
I love the Good News...Jesus , God's Son came and gave us power over the devil and his angels/turned demons :)
He came to give us Life Abundant now....AND after death!!!!
Having a personal relationship with Him is the Ultimate!
To think that He loved us so much to give His only Son....Wow I couldnt do that
One last quick point. We are all born into sin...it is our nature.
Put two Babies in a Crib with one Ball to play with..and most of the time they will each want to have the Ball for their own...their natural desire is NOT to share
Did you ever think of that ?? We dont need taught how to be stingy, selfish, lie, or do bad.
THAT comes naturally.
Mankind has to be taught to be good, have manners, be polite, share and tell the truth. WHY???? Because we are naturally born with the tendency to do evil
But thank God HE has provided a way for us to live in peace and harmony!!
What could be more uplifting, encouraging and inspirational that that!!!:D
God Bless
JDK
scholar
01-24-2007, 03:32 PM
Two points:
If there is an apocalypse coming (global warming, nuclear winter, whatever), no mere human is going to be able to stop it.
If you really believe in Jesus (Buddha, Lao Tzu, Krishna, etc.) you can't be too upset with others who don't believe the same way you do, as that isn't your job. "Judge not lest ye be judged" and all that. To try to coerce another in any way; physically, intellectually, emotionally or psychically, to your "religious" positioning flies in the face of what all of the above teachers taught. Instead of actually listening to those teachers, people have put them above the realms of human experince with all sorts of ritual BS; calling them Messiahs, Immortals or Avatars over the centuries, but they were ultimately teachers with practical messages for everyday people. People have free will. If they don't want to grow and change, if they want to be unethical and immoral, then no one can make them be otherwise. If you try, you are acting just like one of them.
Two points:
If there is an apocalypse coming (global warming, nuclear winter, whatever), no mere human is going to be able to stop it.
If you really believe in Jesus (Buddha, Lao Tzu, Krishna, etc.) you can't be too upset with others who don't believe the same way you do, as that isn't your job. "Judge not lest ye be judged" and all that. To try to coerce another in any way; physically, intellectually, emotionally or psychically, to your "religious" positioning flies in the face of what all of the above teachers taught. Instead of actually listening to those teachers, people have put them above the realms of human experince with all sorts of ritual BS; calling them Messiahs, Immortals or Avatars over the centuries, but they were ultimately teachers with practical messages for everyday people. People have free will. If they don't want to grow and change, if they want to be unethical and immoral, then no one can make them be otherwise. If you try, you are acting just like one of them.
Good sentiments. I only have one question; what great thinker was deemed "avatars"?
scholar
01-25-2007, 01:11 AM
Krishna and (some Hindu schools think) Gautama Buddha were supposed to be avatars of Vishnu.
Two points:
If there is an apocalypse coming (global warming, nuclear winter, whatever), no mere human is going to be able to stop it.
You are absolutely correct. The Bible's depiction of the End of the World is clear, and no power in the Universe can stop it. The amazing part is that God told us all through His Word, how it would be.
If you really believe in Jesus (Buddha, Lao Tzu, Krishna, etc.) you can't be too upset with others who don't believe the same way you do, as that isn't your job. "Judge not lest ye be judged" and all that. To try to coerce another in any way; physically, intellectually, emotionally or psychically, to your "religious" positioning flies in the face of what all of the above teachers taught
Unfortunately the remains of Buddha, Lao Tzu, Krishna are still dead and in their graves.
Jesus's Tomb was and is empty.:) He defeated death, hell and the Grave.
Secondly..I am not trying to coerce anyone to believe anything.
Speaking the truth in Love IS what Jesus commanded us to do until His Return
Gospel of Mark":16:15( JESUS Speaking)
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Matt 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway *, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
St Paul -1Corinthians 9:14
Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
I could go on...but my point is made. Christians are commanded to share their faith. Not browbeat...not force...not make it an Offical State Religion like Rome did
but we are simply to share our story of what HE did for us....how he changed our lives.
Instead of actually listening to those teachers, people have put them above the realms of human experince with all sorts of ritual BS; calling them Messiahs, Immortals or Avatars over the centuries, but they were ultimately teachers with practical messages for everyday people. People have free will. If they don't want to grow and change, if they want to be unethical and immoral, then no one can make them be otherwise. If you try, you are acting just like one of them.
You wrote-]if they want to be unethical and immoral, then no one can make them be otherwise
Uhh..I think law enforcment and courts do this all the time. You might want to rethink that. Your freedoms END where mine BEGINS.. is kinda the Law in a nutshell.
And my "job" is to tell the truth.
Is it always popular ? No.
But scholar, have you ever wondered WHY people get so angry or upset when the Gospel of Jesus is talked about ? Not just on this forum...but in life in general.
It is politically correct to be ANYTHING you want to be today.....[u]EXCEPT A BORN-AGAIN CHRISTIAN:confused:
Just a question to ponder....you dont need to answer.
This thread is about a topic that transends the earthly realm.
Someone who is able to project their spiritual bodies and drain energy from another person is using power that God clearly forbids.
It is dangerous, misguided...and I have done my duty in pointing out what the Word of God says about it...so my hands are clean of any "blood"...I sounded the warning...it is each individuals choice how to respond.
JDK
You are absolutely correct. The Bible's depiction of the End of the World is clear, and no power in the Universe can stop it. The amazing part is that God told us all through His Word, how it would be.
You wrote-]if they want to be unethical and immoral, then no one can make them be otherwise
Uhh..I think law enforcment and courts do this all the time. You might want to rethink that. Your freedoms END where mine BEGINS.. is kinda the Law in a nutshell.
And my "job" is to tell the truth.
Is it always popular ? No.
But scholar, have you ever wondered WHY people get so angry or upset when the Gospel of Jesus is talked about ? Not just on this forum...but in life in general.
It is politically correct to be ANYTHING you want to be today.....[u]EXCEPT A BORN-AGAIN CHRISTIAN:confused:
Just a question to ponder....you dont need to answer.
This thread is about a topic that transends the earthly realm.
Someone who is able to project their spiritual bodies and drain energy from another person is using power that God clearly forbids.
It is dangerous, misguided...and I have done my duty in pointing out what the Word of God says about it...so my hands are clean of any "blood"...I sounded the warning...it is each individuals choice how to respond.
JDK
Listen, Chi Vampirism doesn't have to be spiritual. Many believe that Qi is an undiscovered worldly physical force like electricity. Therefore, it doesn't have to do with astral projection if the person never projects themselves into the spirit world. Besides, thinking of the spirit world as a seperate plane is like thinking that the internet is located somewhere.
Ronin maximus
01-25-2007, 04:37 AM
How many born again Christians became born again w/o a 12 step program?
One obsession was replaced with another obsession.
And the Bible (and don't take this the wrong way, because it is filled with great wisdom), is only one book and to base your whole life on ONE book doesn't make much sense to me.
Each "Church" has it's own interpretation. Check out public access cable to see all these various interpretations in action.
What if people started to live their lives solely based on the teachings of Sun Tzu's The art of war? (for example).
You know why people don't like born agains?
'Cause they keep saying the "Bible says..the bible says" and never hear the other side of the debate. Kinda like covering their ears and going "Lalalalalalaa I can't hear you"
Coins have 2 sides.
Religion is a tool to keep people in line, to make them think they are being watched, so they behave.
scholar
01-25-2007, 05:15 PM
You wrote-]if they want to be unethical and immoral, then no one can make them be otherwise
Uhh..I think law enforcment and courts do this all the time. You might want to rethink that. Your freedoms END where mine BEGINS.. is kinda the Law in a nutshell.
And my "job" is to tell the truth.
Is it always popular ? No.
But scholar, have you ever wondered WHY people get so angry or upset when the Gospel of Jesus is talked about ? Not just on this forum...but in life in general.
It is politically correct to be ANYTHING you want to be today.....[u]EXCEPT A BORN-AGAIN CHRISTIAN:confused:
Just a question to ponder....you dont need to answer.
This thread is about a topic that transends the earthly realm.
Someone who is able to project their spiritual bodies and drain energy from another person is using power that God clearly forbids.
It is dangerous, misguided...and I have done my duty in pointing out what the Word of God says about it...so my hands are clean of any "blood"...I sounded the warning...it is each individuals choice how to respond.
JDK
The criminal justice system punishes people, but it can't change who they are inside. It just beats people from the outside, it can't change their hearts. If someone reforms because their experience in the system, that is good, but they decided to change themselves, it wasn't imposed on them. Punishment was. Many others decide on revenge when they get out. I'd expect a Christian to know that an interior covenant (voluntarily assumed obligation to God, which can be called "born again") is superior to the law (errant behaviour punished by man after the fact, assuming the perp is caught). The ultimate example of the futility of law is that the Roman criminal justice system didn't intimidate Jesus into changing, either.
I do have a theory as to why people get angry with discussions of the gospels. I don't think they are often understood well enough to be presented clearly. Like anything else worthwhile, they require a great deal of study and preparation to get to the essence of what they present. But intellectual study isn't enough, either: "Let them with ears to hear, hear". They are complicated documents written in the idiom of the first and second century eastern Roman Empire, which is only slightly closer to us than the 11th century BC time of Moses that they also draw from. To get a handle on just what they are saying, even if you take the time to learn ancient Hebrew and Greek, you have to be prepared yourself to accept the view of the world as corrupt, evil (or at least dangerous) and impermanent (this is also true of Buddhism and Taoism). What tradition says that the gospels say is often confusing, because tradition has represented worldly power since the time of Constantine, and has lost the original context of the rejection of political power that Moses and Jesus taught in many respects. Because many, if not all, orthodox churches have become props of whatever state they are in, they have become themselves the "Scribes and Pharisees" that Jesus condemned. You are going to have endless debate over this; people quoting their Pope, pastor, patriarch, Paul and the prophets, etc. to support their personal view, with other Christian denominations and within their own - much less with a bunch of guys who aren't interested in the subject to begin with. There are billions of people in the world, some will respond to the message you have posted, others will reject it. As a teacher myself, I have to check and doublecheck all the time to make sure that what I teach has validity even when it is rejected.
Lastly,
I wouldn't say God forbids people stealing energy from others, but rather God has proscribed it. "Thou shalt not steal". God permits people to make the demonstration of stealing because they do in fact still steal. If an omnipotent God had forbidden it, people wouldn't be able to. Rather, God has warned people not to, in many times in many places, and it is up to them to listen to the warning. It is OK for us to report those warnings, even analyzing and discussing them, but we also have to check and doublecheck our motives for confronting others about it, too.
Cheers!
scholar
01-25-2007, 05:41 PM
You know why people don't like born agains?
'Cause they keep saying the "Bible says..the bible says" and never hear the other side of the debate. Kinda like covering their ears and going "Lalalalalalaa I can't hear you"
Coins have 2 sides.
Religion is a tool to keep people in line, to make them think they are being watched, so they behave.
That is unfortunately often true, which I get into above. The traditional position has become inflexible, so that they can no longer teach, only preach. To really teach, you have to consider the viewpoint of the people (and this is important) who have asked you to teach them. Jesus sat down with the tax collectors and debated with the Pharisees, all of whom came to him when he was teaching.
Mankind has been given many great teachers all around the world from prehistory to the present, not just in the Middle East. As Jesus said: "In my Father's house are many mansions". It was indirectly through the teachings of Lao Tzu and Buddha (and directly through my late Taijiquan teachers) that I myself came to recognise how important Jesus' message was to my studies. It is a personal thing, though, I don't expect my students to be of any particular religion, or even religious at all. I expect them to be kind, caring people, and that is enough.
Ronin maximus
01-26-2007, 04:26 AM
To really teach, you have to consider the viewpoint of the people (and this is important) who have asked you to teach them.
True, but sometimes you have to trick people into learning, cause they're so stubborn or blinded by their "Faith":D
Ronin maximus
01-26-2007, 04:39 AM
Here's my proof that chi vampires do exist.........
Take a look at almost any thread in this forum and you'll see all of its' trolls who suck away your energy, over the internet no less, when all you mean to do is have a meaningful debate or share some insight.
Scholar,
You summed it all up on page 1 of this thread. But then comes the troll and tries to show that only his way is "The Way" thusly becoming a Chi vampire and victimizing everyone who debates with him:D
Seriously though, you are one of the few voices of reason on this forum and judging by your posts on this thread, one of the few worthy of respect.
Where do you teach?
That is unfortunately often true, which I get into above. The traditional position has become inflexible, so that they can no longer teach, only preach. To really teach, you have to consider the viewpoint of the people (and this is important) who have asked you to teach them. Jesus sat down with the tax collectors and debated with the Pharisees, all of whom came to him when he was teaching.
Mankind has been given many great teachers all around the world from prehistory to the present, not just in the Middle East. As Jesus said: "In my Father's house are many mansions". It was indirectly through the teachings of Lao Tzu and Buddha (and directly through my late Taijiquan teachers) that I myself came to recognise how important Jesus' message was to my studies. It is a personal thing, though, I don't expect my students to be of any particular religion, or even religious at all. I expect them to be kind, caring people, and that is enough.
Thank You.
Scott R. Brown
01-26-2007, 11:08 AM
Here's my proof that chi vampires do exist.........
Take a look at almost any thread in this forum and you'll see all of its' trolls who suck away your energy, over the internet no less, when all you mean to do is have a meaningful debate or share some insight.
Hi Ronin maximus,
No one can take our energy from us. We give it up to them. We allow them to take it.
It is our attitudes that cause us to experience an energy drain when in the presence of those to take energy.This is because we do not carefully attended to our attitudes of mind. It is carelessness with our own attitudes that makes us vulnerable. We do it to ourselves. To be sure we do it unwittingly, but still, we are responsible for our own loss in this regard!
Ch'an philosophy would say that it is due to ignorance or erroneous thoughts/beliefs/attitudes. That is, we have false or erroneous beliefs/attitudes that create the vulnerability within us. A clear understanding of what is occurring and an unattached attitude towards the results of our comments and actions makes us impervious to the energy loss.
A person who drains energy from others is a vulnerable person. I liken it to a drowning person. The first thing one learns in a water life saving course is that a drowning person will climb over their savior in order to survive; they will drown the person who is trying to save them. It is a mindless and desperate act. All they can think of is their own survival. They are unable to perceive that their actions are endangering themselves. The same phenomenon occurs with those who are emotionally drowning. Their actions are motivated by a survival mentality. They become parasitic of the energy of others because of their own inner emptiness. They are essentially a bucket with a hole in it. The bucket needs constant refilling because they do not attend to the hole, but only the filling of the bucket. To keep their bucket from draining they seek to manipulate the emotions of others and this drains energy if the target is not attending to their own attitudes.
scholar
01-26-2007, 09:31 PM
No one can take our energy from us. We give it up to them. We allow them to take it.
Yes. Knowingly or unknowingly, our permission is necessary for this to happen. People who don't know this rule can be intimidated into releasing ownership, but once they know the score, they become much less vulnerable. This was originally the point of Mary and the Rosary, IMO, to remind people of this principle. But like internet spam, the attempts keep coming, so a daily renewal is necessary.
I'll also say in agreement with the sentiment expressed in the last post that thieves ultimately are only hurting themselves. What really belongs to us cannot be taken forever. I believe we will get everything that is lost back, even if we throw it away, as mentioned in the I Ching. How long that will take is anyone's guess, though.
To answer R. maximus, I teach in Detroit for www.wustyledetroit.com - I'm not the senior instructor, but I've been working with them for 20 years now, and it has been an interesting ride.
TenTigers
01-29-2007, 09:44 AM
all this is bull -unless someone here has had a gwai jaht
Yes. Knowingly or unknowingly, our permission is necessary for this to happen. People who don't know this rule can be intimidated into releasing ownership, but once they know the score, they become much less vulnerable. This was originally the point of Mary and the Rosary, IMO, to remind people of this principle. But like internet spam, the attempts keep coming, so a daily renewal is necessary.
I'll also say in agreement with the sentiment expressed in the last post that thieves ultimately are only hurting themselves. What really belongs to us cannot be taken forever. I believe we will get everything that is lost back, even if we throw it away, as mentioned in the I Ching. How long that will take is anyone's guess, though.
To answer R. maximus, I teach in Detroit for www.wustyledetroit.com - I'm not the senior instructor, but I've been working with them for 20 years now, and it has been an interesting ride.
In my opinion you guys are giving too much credit to those who are NOT nice people.
There ARE those out there who, like anything else in life..seem to gravitate towards the evil and "how can I gain more power without the hard work"
mentality.
I believe that in the Traditional Martial Arts World...there are those who have obtained the abilities like The Indirect Method of Iron Palm, Astral Projection (under a differnt Martial Arts name of course) and other powers that take along time to develop, just so they can use them for less than benign purposes.
A "Chi Vampire" is one who projects their spirt-body to where you are Meditating or doing Chi-Gong ( in other words you are vunerable) and they draw your vital energy to add to their own, or replace some they have lost. The only awareness you might have while this is happening is that you feel slightly drained
or cannot focus or concentrate as well as you normally can.
Now as some have pointed out there are other types of "energy -sucker-outers"
( just made that word up:D ) who without realizing it, take up a a lot of your time by demanding your attention, at the expense of the rest of the class or maybe even call you frequently at home to ask questions, seek advice, etc....
I guess my teachers' main point in teaching this principle to me was to make me alert to the fact that there is a criminal element in most things in life...and that TMA is not an exception.
You can take the advice or leave it...I just say be careful WHO you share your intimate daily schedule wiith.
JDK
PS: And they DONT need your permission either. By wilingly surrendering your will to enter into the soirit realm, unless you are trained...you are vunerable.
Yes. Knowingly or unknowingly, our permission is necessary for this to happen. People who don't know this rule can be intimidated into releasing ownership, but once they know the score, they become much less vulnerable. This was originally the point of Mary and the Rosary, IMO, to remind people of this principle. But like internet spam, the attempts keep coming, so a daily renewal is necessary.
I'll also say in agreement with the sentiment expressed in the last post that thieves ultimately are only hurting themselves. What really belongs to us cannot be taken forever. I believe we will get everything that is lost back, even if we throw it away, as mentioned in the I Ching. How long that will take is anyone's guess, though.
To answer R. maximus, I teach in Detroit for www.wustyledetroit.com - I'm not the senior instructor, but I've been working with them for 20 years now, and it has been an interesting ride.
In my opinion you guys are giving too much credit to those who are NOT nice people.
There ARE those out there who, like anything else in life..seem to gravitate towards the evil and "how can I gain more power without the hard work"
mentality.
I believe that in the Traditional Martial Arts World...there are those who have obtained the abilities like The Indirect Method of Iron Palm, Astral Projection (under a differnt Martial Arts name of course) and other powers that take along time to develop, just so they can use them for less than benign purposes.
A "Chi Vampire" is one who projects their spirt-body to where you are Meditating or doing Chi-Gong ( in other words you are vunerable) and they draw your vital energy to add to their own, or replace some they have lost. The only awareness you might have while this is happening is that you feel slightly drained
or cannot focus or concentrate as well as you normally can.
Now as some have pointed out there are other types of "energy -sucker-outers"
( just made that word up:D ) who without realizing it, take up a a lot of your time by demanding your attention, at the expense of the rest of the class or maybe even call you frequently at home to ask questions, seek advice, etc....
I guess my teachers' main point in teaching this principle to me was to make me alert to the fact that there is a criminal element in most things in life...and that TMA is not an exception.
You can take the advice or leave it...I just say be careful WHO you share your intimate daily schedule wiith.
JDK PS: And sorry to contradict..they DONT need your permission.
By entering into the spirit realm, you reliquish certain natural
protections that are built into our concious minds. The spirit
realm is a whole different ball game, with different rules that
one need be aware of.
scholar
01-31-2007, 02:00 AM
Basically, the world is messed up. It is full of greedy fearful people who make it their business to steal from others every day. Is that giving them "credit" or a simple acknowledgement of what we see around us? As Jesus said: "The world hated me before it hated you." Bullies of whatever sort foster a spirit of fear in their intended victims. If you yourself don't have a spirit of fear, how can they bother you? Are you the head or the tail? Being blessed isn't the same as being stupid, however. If it is, it isn't really a blessing. Martial art training should be realistic, and an experienced teacher can help students avoid trouble before it starts by being able to teach how to recognize it.
To say that the conscious mind is more protected than the spirit is where we disagree. The conscious mind is much more susceptible to manipulation than the heart or spirit, IME.
mantis108
01-31-2007, 03:28 AM
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/6356/pakuacounteractingix92vy.gif (http://imageshack.us)
http://img255.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pakuacounteractingix92vy.gif
Please note the pentagram inside the Paqua Circle.
THIS is the picture I meant to post before ( sorry)
Again..I do not think this a purposeful attempt of any Master, Style or Martial Artist.
I just think when you compare all the evidence , we will find a re-occurring pattern .
Please stay tuned and hear me out.
Believe it or not I WANT to be wrong! As I have said from the beginning I love the Arts
but if they conflict with my faith and the Inspired Word of God ( the Bible)....I must
obey the Lord.
JD
Enough trolling and horsing around, JDK.
Your degree of ignorance on the subject of Yijing (classic of change) diagrams is so horrendously terrible that no word in the English dictionary can cover it.
You posted 2 different diagrams, which are flawed drawing to begin with, that you can't even intelligently discern the difference between two let alone understanding what they represent individually. The pantegram sign as you pointed out is laughable. You choose to ignore the "cross" in the diagrams, which is most obvious, but you attempte to twist that to your spin. Yeah, that is a cross/crucifix in the diagrams and anyone can clearly see that. If they are evil by your admission, then the cross must have been equally evil as well since it is found in the Yijing diagrams (and other cultures' symbols too). How on earth can you claim yourself to be some kind of a credible expert on the subject matter?
Personally, I think you need professional help (from the posts that you have been posting in various threads) and please stop continuing your imaginary "church" work. You are really poisoning others mind with uneducated, unintelligent, incomplete information rather than doing an meaningful "God's" work.
Mantis108
A "Chi Vampire" is one who projects their spirt-body to where you are Meditating or doing Chi-Gong ( in other words you are vunerable) and they draw your vital energy to add to their own, or replace some they have lost. The only awareness you might have while this is happening is that you feel slightly drained
or cannot focus or concentrate as well as you normally can.
JDK PS: And sorry to contradict..they DONT need your permission.
By entering into the spirit realm, you reliquish certain natural
protections that are built into our concious minds. The spirit
realm is a whole different ball game, with different rules that
one need be aware of.
This chunk is slightly more accurate than the other stuff. The case is this: When you enter the "spirit realm" (which is basically as much of a "realm" as the internet is a "realm.")The "spirit realm" is just a connected network of minds, to put in in an awfully innaccurate sense. When you give yourself a mental avatar, like most people do when meditating, you're in the ring. So what's my point?
They don't need your permission, but they do need to beat you. They have to kick the ass of every avatar you have in your mind and once they've done that, your internal landscape will be a muddled, blurry mess. That's when they "get your energy." Which is basically just messing you up until you re-establish yourself. Masters who can do this might be able to kill you, I have no idea. If you don't have a developed image of yourself, take great precaution in entering into the internal landscape, which is sort of like moving to a universal pattern. Obviously it will be a lot harder to target someone if the "enemy" doesn't know when or where you meditate. If you fear it, that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. Just be aware. The biggest warning sign you can get is if an "image" enters your mind that is so alien to your perception that it is impossible for it to be created by your own self.
NOTE: The previous notion was expressed through metaphor and is to be accepted figuratively. This is just how I've had to deal with it. My way is not more right than yours. That's just how my mind developed to abstract it into something I can understand, in the same manner that different computer languages express bianary to operate on a higher scale; No one language is better than the other, because they are all metaphor for bianary.
TenTigers
01-31-2007, 05:53 PM
"Chi Vampire" is one who projects their spirt-body to where you are Meditating or doing Chi-Gong ( in other words you are vunerable) and they draw your vital energy to add to their own, or replace some they have lost."
That would probably be referred to as an incubus or succubus-male and female, respectively. In actuality, a vampire doesn't have to project, or anything. They can be simply next to you, speak to you,be in the same room with you. They can draw energy during sex, such as tantric methods, or simply in conversation. They can possess an article of jewelry that is drawing-even without their knowledge. Or it can be done with intent. You can be drained emotionally-which saps your energy as well. We have all been there. Stress drains your "vital force".
You are vulnerable because you lack protection,or are "projecting" to these people.They will be attracted to you. (like gheydar) Some people have what some refer to as auric wounds, similar to the vampire seeing an open wound, like in the movies. They "see" the open wound in the aura and are drawn to it.
There are also leeches, that latch onto yu and drain you.
(My mom said I was one.):D
Good accurate Post TenTigers.
My personal belief is the only true, reliable protection at all times....is to be a child of the Living God, covered in the Blood of Jesus His Son.
Daily prayer and asking the Lord for protection is vital.
Also dont get into the "Arena" of Eastern Style Meditation where you are trained
to blank out your mind. God gave us our concious frontal lobe of the Brain as a Watcher or Keeper of the Door of our spirit.
Keep your concious mind up... and you will avoid alot of potential heartache.
Also before sleeping at night a simple prayer in your own word for protection is a good idea;)
Just my opinion
JDK
In Search Of Truth
TenTigers
01-31-2007, 08:15 PM
"child of the Living God, covered in the Blood of Jesus His Son."-sounds lovely. I can't imagine why anyone would have issues with converting to Christianity.
Now, at a theatre near you...Wes Craven's "Testament-the Revenge of the Messiah!"
Yeah, a bit over the top for me. But some of what you were saying has merit. After all, man gravitates toward spirituality. Every culture has this. Every religion/spiritual belief says the same thing, there were many prophets,avatars,buddhas, just in different "languages".
As far as the messiah is concerned, mesheach-in Hebrew, simply means a spiritual awakening of man on earth. It was never meant to be interpeted as any one person. That was a curruption of the original meaning, which came many years after Christ.(you may want to look into the Nicean Council) So, as far as a second coming-don't look for it outside. Look for it within.
"child of the Living God, covered in the Blood of Jesus His Son."-sounds lovely. I can't imagine why anyone would have issues with converting to Christianity.
Now, at a theatre near you...Wes Craven's "Testament-the Revenge of the Messiah!"
Yeah, a bit over the top for me. But some of what you were saying has merit. After all, man gravitates toward spirituality. Every culture has this. Every religion/spiritual belief says the same thing, there were many prophets,avatars,buddhas, just in different "languages".
As far as the messiah is concerned, mesheach-in Hebrew, simply means a spiritual awakening of man on earth. It was never meant to be interpeted as any one person. That was a curruption of the original meaning, which came many years after Christ.(you may want to look into the Nicean Council) So, as far as a second coming-don't look for it outside. Look for it within.
One major difference TenTigers...............
Jesus rose from the dead.:) Christianity rises or falls on that historical fact.
May I recommend The "Case For Christ by Lee Strobel
http://www.leestrobel.com/
It is an excellant scholarly book of an athiest setting out to prove the Resurrection was a Fraud.......
JDK
PS- And I am familiar with the Council of Nicean.....
lunghushan
02-01-2007, 12:08 AM
One major difference TenTigers...............
Jesus rose from the dead.:) Christianity rises or falls on that historical fact.
...
PS- And I am familiar with the Council of Nicean.....
Dude, there's no proof of this anywhere. There are some books that claim that, but if you look at the other books that were thrown out of the Council of Nicea, you will find a lot of references to things that make a good case that this Christianity cult made up a lot of stories to get converts.
How can you call it a historical fact? There is no historical fact. There is NO PROOF for this assertion. You accept it based upon your belief, but there is no proof anywhere for it.
Anyways, I give up ... I just hope the Falun Gong people don't get on this board again. It's like we got rid of Juna and now we've got JDK.
Dude, there's no proof of this anywhere. There are some books that claim that, but if you look at the other books that were thrown out of the Council of Nicea, you will find a lot of references to things that make a good case that this Christianity cult made up a lot of stories to get converts.
How can you call it a historical fact? There is no historical fact. There is NO PROOF for this assertion. You accept it based upon your belief, but there is no proof anywhere for it.
Anyways, I give up ... I just hope the Falun Gong people don't get on this board again. It's like we got rid of Juna and now we've got JDK.
Not true.
I am willing to bet you didnt even glance a the Lee Strobel Link I posted, let along watch just one or 2 video clips.
http://www.leestrobel.com/
There is plenty of historical recoeds and proof.
Ceasar even sent spies to check out this Jesus who was stirring up such a fuss with reports of Miracles and Healings.
And IF you decide to claim that you dont believe because of lack of evidence, I would be careful going down that slippery slope...you had better be prepared to say you dont believe in much of Early World & American history since you didnt meet them...nor were there any camera's , photographs, etc...to PROVE they existed.
We have about 5900 years of human history without much proof that it really happened..and yet you accept that as fact.
No double standard...more people saw Jesus than Julius Ceasar
Alexander the Great ( 335 BC)
The Babaloynians, Egyptions, Christopher Columbus, ect....I could go on.
It is historical fact that Paul and the early church changed the course of History
( Roman Empire)
Records proving the existance of Buddah, Sun Tzu,( The Art of War) are no more convincing than the ecords of the existance of Jesus as his Resurrection.
I man..we only have drawings of George Washington !!!! How do you know HE really existed ?????
Check out the Lee Stroble, (a hard-core atheist) site...please
JDK
http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/c/clement-of-rome.
Clement ( 30-70 AD) EARLY CHURCH WRITER AND "REPORTER"
scholar
02-01-2007, 02:57 AM
The Catholic church claims Clement of Rome as a pope, but the dates you give are off, skewed somewhat backwards by about 30 years.
Look at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Clement_I
It is well known academically that there is no contemporary record of Yeshu'ah the Nazorean (YSH NZR in Hebrew). The first reliable writings are ascribed to Paul of Tarsus, the very earliest surviving being from the 50s AD, 20 years after the crucifixion. Professor Bart Ehrmann, a well known authority in New Testament Greek, does a good job of describing how the gospels we have were written and re-written for 400-500 years before the church settled on the version it liked.
It is OK to make an argument for the importance of Jesus as a matter of belief, but if you are going to argue facts, you should have them straight first.
Not true.
We have about 5900 years of human history without much proof that it really happened..and yet you accept that as fact.
JDK
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating
Oh, would you mind not double-posting? You can edit your posts, you know.
Justaguy
02-01-2007, 07:29 AM
Not true.
I am willing to bet you didnt even glance a the Lee Strobel Link I posted, let along watch just one or 2 video clips.
http://www.leestrobel.com/
There is plenty of historical recoeds and proof.
Ceasar even sent spies to check out this Jesus who was stirring up such a fuss with reports of Miracles and Healings.
JDK
There are no contemporary historical accounts of Jesus. I don't say that to call any of the details of your faith into question. But if anyone living in the time of Christ did write about him, there is no existing records of it.
Josephus wrote about him, but he was born in 37AD, after Jesus was already dead. The Gospels were written around 70AD.
I didn't have time to root through all of the sites that you linked to - if you can point to the specific contemporary records of Jesus' existance, please do. If Ceaser did send people to spy on Jesus and they did leave record, that fact somehow has been neglected by every book I've read on the history of Christianity.
It took some 300 or so years before there were accounts of the life of Sun Zi, whatever thats worth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating
Oh, would you mind not double-posting? You can edit your posts, you know.
Didnt realize I double posted...sorry
http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/06dat3.htm
...So much for "Carbon Dating"....it has been disproved along time ago.
JDK
There are no contemporary historical accounts of Jesus. I don't say that to call any of the details of your faith into question. But if anyone living in the time of Christ did write about him, there is no existing records of it.
Josephus wrote about him, but he was born in 37AD, after Jesus was already dead. The Gospels were written around 70AD.
I didn't have time to root through all of the sites that you linked to - if you can point to the specific contemporary records of Jesus' existance, please do. If Ceaser did send people to spy on Jesus and they did leave record, that fact somehow has been neglected by every book I've read on the history of Christianity.
It took some 300 or so years before there were accounts of the life of Sun Zi, whatever thats worth.
There are at least 5200 Manuscripts in existance, most all agree in info, on the existence and reliability of the acts of Jesus of Nazereth
http://www.intervarsity.org/evangelism/article_item.php?article_id=1598
Please take note of the Chart on Link showing the much longer time periods of information and writings of other historical figures.
JDK
Justaguy
02-01-2007, 03:24 PM
There are at least 5200 Manuscripts in existance, most all agree in info, on the existence and reliability of the acts of Jesus of Nazereth
http://www.intervarsity.org/evangelism/article_item.php?article_id=1598
Please take note of the Chart on Link showing the much longer time periods of information and writings of other historical figures.
JDK
Those are not contemporary historical accounts. A contemporary account would be from the time in which Jesus was alive - that page suggests that such records probably existed, but we only have documents that are derived from those documents.
Didnt realize I double posted...sorry
http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/06dat3.htm
...So much for "Carbon Dating"....it has been disproved along time ago.
JDK
The information on that site is corrupt because it is written in a pro-creationism context. These are the people who think that if you traveled >6000 years into the past, you would end up in empty space. Carbon dating is only less accurate than one presumed, but it can still give a general sense of the object's date. Pease do not try to pull the "well you can't see the air but it's there" theory. Why do you need to search for facts about Jesus's existence? If you really have faith you wouldn't have to search for proof of his existence.
scholar
02-02-2007, 06:25 PM
Radioisotope decay rates are a constant, subject to environmental factors that affect absorption. Calibrating Carbon 14 data with tree ring surveys has provided excellent results, and archaeologists and other scientists rely on the info they get from carbon dating all the time.
Carbon 14 has only been disproved to those who already wanted it disproved.
This is no longer an argument, it is a shouting match, so I'm done. I mostly just wanted people to know that there are those of us who find value in intelligently discussing religion. Religion is an emotional subject, but it is a mistake confuse emotion with spirituality. If the emotion is coming from a confused person, it is confused emotion, and is easily manipulated for money by unscrupulous mega churchers, for example.
No, there has to be real, practical value in the ethical nature of any such discussions about what the great religious teachers taught. Jesus taught mercy and forgiveness, yet how much of that have we ever seen from the "Bible Belt"? Blind church ritual and loudly repeating "approved" magic spells do not create stable societies where people are allowed to grow and learn. They create a climate of fear where social security check grannies fork over their life savings to self-appointed theocrats who live high on the hog with their mansions, yachts, sportscars, booze, meth and prostitutes.
Investigating, thoroughly, the history of any religion or group of religions is essential. Don't trust what modern followers say, you have to go back to the source to find out what really happened, for yourself. It's worth it.
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_hypothesis
Radioisotope decay rates are a constant, subject to environmental factors that affect absorption. Calibrating Carbon 14 data with tree ring surveys has provided excellent results, and archaeologists and other scientists rely on the info they get from carbon dating all the time.
Carbon 14 has only been disproved to those who already wanted it disproved.
This is no longer an argument, it is a shouting match, so I'm done. I mostly just wanted people to know that there are those of us who find value in intelligently discussing religion. Religion is an emotional subject, but it is a mistake confuse emotion with spirituality. If the emotion is coming from a confused person, it is confused emotion, and is easily manipulated for money by unscrupulous mega churchers, for example.
No, there has to be real, practical value in the ethical nature of any such discussions about what the great religious teachers taught. Jesus taught mercy and forgiveness, yet how much of that have we ever seen from the "Bible Belt"? Blind church ritual and loudly repeating "approved" magic spells do not create stable societies where people are allowed to grow and learn. They create a climate of fear where social security check grannies fork over their life savings to self-appointed theocrats who live high on the hog with their mansions, yachts, sportscars, booze, meth and prostitutes.
Investigating, thoroughly, the history of any religion or group of religions is essential. Don't trust what modern followers say, you have to go back to the source to find out what really happened, for yourself. It's worth it.
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_hypothesis
Excellent well documented Link Scholar.
Logical...and well researched.
It doent change the fact that Jesus rose from the Grave.!!:)
He showed Himself to many...
John 20:30
And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
20:31
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
We also have Paul's writing later...that MOST the very eyewitnesses were still alive at the time of his Letter to the Church at Corith..and some had died.
1Corthians 15:6
After that, he was seen of above [u]five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present[/u,] but some are fallen asleep.
As I mentioned before. these early believers and eyewitnesses were tortured, hunted and killed when Nero leveled Jeruselum...and yet they stuck by their story, unwilling to recant even in he face of watching family members die right before their eyes.
I highly recommend Foxes Book Of The Martyrs...it gives a chilling account by a person who had no reason to make up his accounts of the suffering of the Early Chruch once persecution broke out. It is a trusted classic, by believers and non believers alike
http://www.ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/home.html
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/foxe/martyrs/?id=foxe/martyrs
JDK
lunghushan
02-03-2007, 12:01 AM
I didn't say there was no historical evidence of Jesus. I said there's no evidence he rose from the grave.
There's also stories that the Romans stole Jesus body from the tomb because they were worried if his body was there that he'd become a martyr, and this is where all the stories of 'rose from the grave' came from.
Anyways, whatever. All I can say, JDK, is I absolutely abhor Christians because of people like you. Religious fanatics, IMHO, are the curse of this earth, and even worse than just regular stupid people.
BTW, if you prove with science that someone can 'rise from the grave', then maybe it will give your claims some credence. But until then you do sound pretty much like a lunatic. At least though you're not claiming to have seen Satan like my dad claims he has.
scholar
02-03-2007, 01:29 AM
So, if he rose from the grave, what does it mean? That's the important thing. Good, so if we accept for the sake of argument that he rose from the grave, now what? Did he see his shadow and go back in?
Seriously, the answer isn't simple either, because it has to realistically address why he was killed in the first place. Why was he killed? What was it about the story that makes it necessary for someone horribly killed by the Romans to come back to life?
Then you have to sort through why Mark shows him freaking out because he felt he was completely abandoned by God on the cross and why Luke shows him calm and serene and talking about the certainty of heaven? Which was it? Which version are we to believe? Academics think Mark was earlier, so why did Luke write about a "superman Jesus" just a few years after Mark's (more believable) human Jesus?
These are rhetorical questions, because I think I have some understanding of the answers (or at least I flatter myself that I do). I'm not asking these things to be a jerk about any of this, but because having actual answers to these questions is important to understanding and discussing, say, most of ensuing western civilization. How the heck did this particular group of stories end up taking over all of Europe (and most of the Americas) for the next 1500 years? And why are they so rapidly losing steam today? And then, how do they tie into the question of how to deal with people who suck the life's blood out of the people around them?
These are the kinds of issues that I sometimes find interesting. :confused:
I didn't say there was no historical evidence of Jesus. I said there's no evidence he rose from the grave.
You must have meant to say because the historical Figure Paul and John write about it...you just wont believe thier word:
1Corthians 15:6
After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present but some are fallen asleep.
Or...........[b]http://www.earthharvest.org/en/christian_online_bible_apologetics/proofthereisagod/5JesusChristSonofgodEvidence.htm
"The meaning of the resurrection is a theological matter, but the fact of the resurrection is a historical matter; the nature of the resurrection body of Jesus may be a mystery, but the fact that the body disappeared from the tomb is a matter to be decided upon by historical evidence. The place is of geographical definiteness, the man who owned the tomb was a man living in the first half of the first century; the tomb was made out of rock in a hillside near Jerusalem, and was not composed of some mythological gossamer, or cloud-dust, but is something which has geographical significance. The guards put before the tomb were not aerial beings from Mt. Olympus; the Sanhedrin was a body of men meeting frequently in Jerusalem. As a vast mass of literature tells us, this person, Jesus, was a living person, a man among men, whatever else He was, and the disciples who went out to preach the risen Lord were men among men, men who ate, drank, slept, suffered, worked, died. What is there ‘doctrinal’ about this? This is a historical problem" (page 386).
"Let it simply be said the we know more about the details of the hours immediately before and the actual death of Jesus, in and near Jerusalem, than we know about the death of any other one man in all the ancient world" (Page 360).
The resurrection of Christ enjoys a wealth of evidence which includes:
1. The testimony of history:
A Jewish historian by the name of Josephus wrote at the end of the first century AD, in his Antiquities: "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him many Jews, and also many of the Greeks. This man was the Christ. And when Pilate had condemned him to the cross, upon his impeachment by the principal man among us, those who had loved from the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive on the third day, the divine prophets having spoken these and thousands of other wonderful things about him. And even now, the race of Christians, so named from him, has not died out."
Josephus was a Jew trying to please the Romans and he would not have related this story if it were not true as it was not pleasing to the Romans, portraying Pilate as condemning the "Christ."
2. The testimony of the apostles:
Simon Greenleaf, Professor of Law at Harvard University, wrote in An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice: "The great truths which the apostles declared, were that Christ had risen from the dead, and that only through repentance from sin, and faith in Him, could men hope for salvation. This doctrine they asserted with one voice, everywhere, not only under the greatest discouragements, but in the face of the most appalling errors that can be presented to the mind of man. Their master had recently perished as a malefactor, by the sentence of a public tribunal. His religion sought to overthrow the religions of the whole world. The laws of every country were against the teachings of His disciples. The interests and passions of all the rulers and great men in the world were against them. The fashion of the world was against them. Propagating this new faith, even in the most inoffensive and peaceful manner, they could expect nothing but contempt, opposition, revilings, bitter persecutions, stripes, imprisonments, torments and cruel deaths. Yet this faith they zealously did propagate; and all these miseries they endured undismayed, nay, rejoicing. As one after another was put to a miserable death, the survivors only prosecuted their work with increased vigor and resolution. The annals of military warfare afford scarcely an example of the like heroic constancy, patience, and unblenching courage. They had every possible motive to review carefully the grounds of their faith, and the evidences of the great facts and truths which they asserted; and these motives were pressed upon their attention with the most melancholy and terrific frequency. It was therefore impossible that they could have persisted in affirming the truths they have narrated, had not Jesus actually risen from the dead, and had they not known this fact as certainly as they knew any other fact" (Greenleaf, Simon. Testimony of the Evangelists, Examined by the Rules of Evidence Administered in Courts of Justice. Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1965 (reprinted from 1847 edition).
After the crucifixion the apostles went into hiding, afraid of the persecution of the authorities (certainly not possessing the courage of breaking into Jesus’ tomb and "stealing" his body as the chief priests bribed the guards to represent), yet of the twelve apostles, eleven went on to die martyr’s deaths preaching that Jesus is the Son of God who rose from the dead. Peter denied Jesus several times after Jesus had been arrested but a short time after his crucifixion and burial Peter was in Jerusalem preaching boldly under the threat of death that Jesus was the Son of God who was resurrected. So fervent was Peter’s faith that when it came time for his own crucifixion he asked to be crucified upside down because he was not worthy to die as Christ had. Thomas who had put his fingers in Jesus’ nail prints to believe died a martyr’s death when he was thrust through with a spear. James, Jesus’ brother, who had been skeptical of His claims died a martyr’s death by stoning after Jesus appeared to him (1 Corinthians 15:7).
It is hard to die for a lie. In recent history we’ve seen some die for political causes they believe in, but none die for what they don’t believe in. Something transformed these intimidated, cowering apostles into powerful spokesmen of their faith. Jesus had appeared to them. In the Book of Acts we are told that Jesus had presented Himself alive to his apostles. "He also presented Himself alive, after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days, and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God" (Acts 1:3, NASB).
3. Jesus had in fact died on the cross:
While hanging on the cross, "When Jesus....had received the sour wine, He said, ‘It is finished!’ And He bowed His head, and gave up His spirit. The Jews therefore, because it was the day of preparation, so that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for the Sabbath was a high day), asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. The soldiers therefore came, and broke the legs of the first man, and of the other man who was crucified with Him; but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs; but one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately there came out blood and water. And he who has seen has borne witness, and his witness is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe" (John 19:30-35, NASB).
"And someone ran and filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on a reed, and gave Him a drink, saying, ‘Let us see whether Elijah will come to take Him down.’ And Jesus uttered a loud cry, and breathed His last. And the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. And when the centurion, who was standing right in front of Him, saw the way He breathed His last, he said, ‘Truly this man was the Son of God!" (Mark 15:36-39, NASB).
"And when evening had already come, because it was the Preparation Day, that is, the day before the Sabbath, Joseph of Arimathea came, a prominent member of the Council, a man who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God; and he gathered up courage and went in before Pilate, and asked for the body of Jesus. And Pilate wondered if He was dead by this time, and summoning the centurion, he questioned him as to whether He was already dead. And ascertaining this from the centurion, he granted the body to Joseph" (Mark 15:42-45, NASB). The centurion had knowledge that Jesus had died, otherwise he would not have confirmed the fact to Pilate and Pilate would not have granted the body to Joseph of Arimathea for burial.
"And Joseph bought a linen sheet, took Him down, wrapped Him in the linen sheet, and laid Him in a tomb which had been hewn out in the rock; and he rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb. And Mary Magdalene and Mary, the mother of Jesus were looking on to see where He was laid" (Mark 15:46-47, NASB).
4. The Stone:
Mary Magdalene and Mary, the mother of Jesus, came to anoint Jesus on the first day of the week when the Sabbath was over. The women were concerned and discussing who would roll away the stone from the entrance of the tomb so they could anoint Jesus with the spices they had bought. When they arrived at the tomb, the stone "had been rolled away, although it was extremely large" (Mark 16:1,3,4, NASB). Matthew also describes the stone as "a large stone" (Matthew 27:60). It is generally believed the stone weighed about two tons.
5. The Seal:
Of more importance than the size of the stone, aside from the fact that a large stone would have deterred potential robbers, was the seal which was set on the stone. The Pharisees went to Pilate and informed him that Jesus had said that after three days he would rise again. They requested that Pilate give orders that the grave be made secure until the third day, "lest the disciples come and steal Him away and say to the people, ‘He has risen from the dead,’ and the last deception will be worse than the first.’ Pilate said to them, ‘You have a guard; go, make it as secure as you know how.’ And they went and made the grave secure, and along with the guard they set a seal on the stone" (Matthew 27:64-66).
A.T. Robertson in Word Pictures in the New Testament (New York: R.R. Smith, Inc., 1931) described the probable method used in sealing the stone "...probably by a cord stretched across the stone and sealed at each end as in Dan. 6:17(‘And a stone was brought and laid over the mouth of the den; and the king sealed it with his own signet ring and with the signet rings of his nobles, so that nothing might be changed in regard to Daniel.’). The sealing was done in the presence of the Roman guards who were left in charge to protect this stamp of Roman authority and power. They did their best to prevent theft and the resurrection (Bruce), but they overreached themselves and provided additional witness to the fact of the empty tomb and the resurrection of Jesus (Plummer)."
7. The Cover-Up:
Pilate’s response to the Pharisees was "You have a guard," which can be interpreted you may have a Roman guard or you already have your own guard in the form of the temple police. Prevalent authority concludes that a Roman guard was posted. Otherwise, why would the Pharisees go to Pilate to make the grave secure. They wouldn’t have needed Pilate’s authorization to post the temple guard which was under their control. When Jesus resurrected, in fear of Pilate’s wrath, the guards went to the chief priests and reported all that had happened (Matthew 28:11). The chief priests gave the soldiers a large sum of money to misrepresent what had occurred: "You are to say, ‘His disciples came by night and stole Him away while we were asleep.’ ‘And if this should come to the governor’s ears, we will win him over and keep you out of trouble. And they took the money and did as they had been instructed; and this story was widely spread among the Jews, and is to this day" (Matthew 28:13-15, NASB).
Because of the strict discipline in the Roman military, a Roman guard would have reason to fear the consequences of dereliction of duty administered by an angry Pilate who would have accused them of sleeping on the job while the body was stolen, a capital offense (death). Evidently the chief priests had influence over Pilate and promised the fearful Roman guards protection if they lied and sweetened the pot by giving them a large sum of money. The chief priests would not have had to bribe a temple guard under their direct control. Their recourse to bribing the guards evidences Jesus’ body was missing and had not been stolen.
Matthew describes what happened that night while the guard was on duty, "... a severe earthquake had occurred, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled away the stone and sat upon it. And his appearance was like lightning, and his garment as white as snow; and the guards shook for hear of him, and became like dead men" (Matthew 28:2-4, NASB).
8. Suffering of Jesus:
Some have said that Jesus did not die on the cross, but merely passed out. After he was placed in the tomb, he revived, got up, and left.
What this argument completely overlooks is the physical trials Jesus suffered prior and during the crucifixion leading to his death. Prior to being taken prisoner Jesus traveled on foot throughout Palestine and it is reasonable to assume was in good physical health. Anticipating his ordeal on Thursday evening in Gethsemane Jesus suffered great mental anguish, and, as described by Luke, a physician, sweated blood. Bloody sweat is a rare phenomenon but may occur in very intense emotional states and is the result of hemorrhaging into the sweat glands (William D. Edwards, MD; Wesley J. Gabel, MD; Floyd E. Hosmer, MS., AMI, "On the Physical Death of Jesus Christ," JAMA, March 21, 1986 - Vol 255, No. 11, p. 1455).
Flogging was a legal preliminary to every Roman execution. A short whip was used of several braided or single leather thongs in which were imbedded small iron balls or sharp pieces of sheep bone to tear the flesh. The back, buttocks, and legs were flogged. Flogging was intended to weaken the victim to a state just short of collapse or death. The resulting bleeding set the stage for circulatory shock and determined how long the victim would survive on the cross.
The Roman soldiers spat on Jesus and beat Him on the head, placing on Him a crown of thorns. So weakened was Jesus that the Roman soldiers had to press Simon, a Cyrenian, to bear the cross. Since the entire cross probably weighed over 300 lbs. only the patibulum or crossbar, weighing 75 to 125 lbs., was carried. It was placed across the nape of the victim’s neck and balanced on both shoulders.
Romans preferred to nail their victim’s hands to the crossbar. Remains found in an ossuary near Jerusalem dating from the time of Christ of a crucified victim reveal that tapered iron spikes 5 to 7 inches long and 3/8 inch wide were used. These spikes were driven through the wrists rather than the palms. The Romans also preferred to nail their victims’ feet.
The weight of the body hanging from the cross fixed the intercostal muscles in an inhalation state and severely taxed exhalation. Thus, breathing was shallow and, "Adequate exhalation required lifting the body by pushing up on the feet and by flexing the elbows and adducting the shoulders. However, this maneuver would place the entire weight of the body on the tarsals and would produce searing pain. Furthermore, flexation of the elbows would cause rotation of the wrists about the iron nails and cause fiery pain along the damaged median nerves. Lifting of the body would also painfully scrape the scourged back against the rough wooden stipes. Muscle cramps and paresthesias of the outstretched and uplifted arms would add to the discomfort. As a result, each respiratory effort would become agonizing and tiring and lead eventually to asphyxia" (JAMA, March 21, 1986 - Vol 255, No.11, p.1461).
Survival on the cross ranged from three to four hours to three of four days and was related to the severity of the scourging. When the scourging was relatively mild, Roman soldiers would expedite death by breaking the legs below the knees thereby suffocating the victim. By custom, one of the Roman guards would also pierce with body with a spear wound through the heart or with a sword.
The gospel of John informs us that, "When Jesus...had received the sour wine, He said, ‘It is finished!’ And He bowed His head, and gave up His spirit" (John 19:30). So that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath, Pilate was asked that the legs of those crucified might be broken. "The soldiers therefore came, and broke the legs of the first man, and of the other man who was crucified with Him; but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs; but one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately there came out blood and water" (John 19:32-34, NASB).
To allege that Jesus "swooned" rather than died on the cross and later revived in the coolness of the tomb, regained his strength after the extensive physical trauma he’d been through (including a spear thrust through the heart), pushed aside a two ton stone, and spent the next forty days ministering to his followers across the Holy Land is ludicrous. To examine the extensive historical evidence of His resurrection attests to his deity and gives us hope that by believing in Him, as he sincerely promised, we have eternal life.
There's also stories that the Romans stole Jesus body from the tomb because they were worried if his body was there that he'd become a martyr, and this is where all the stories of 'rose from the grave' came from.
Anyways, whatever. All I can say, JDK, is I absolutely abhor Christians because of people like you. Religious fanatics, IMHO, are the curse of this earth, and even worse than just regular stupid people.
BTW, if you prove with science that someone can 'rise from the grave', then maybe it will give your claims some credence. But until then you do sound pretty much like a lunatic. At least though you're not claiming to have seen Satan like my dad claims he has.[/QUOTE]
Historical Reliability of the Bible
Are the New Testament documents reliable?
Luke is the consummate historian. For example in Chapter 3, Luke informs us with great specificity, “Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, and Herod was tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip was tetrarch of the region of Ituraea and Trachonitis, and Lysanias was tetrarch of Abilene, in the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John, the son of Zacharias, in the wilderness” (Chapter 3; 1-2).
Tiberius became emperor in August, AD 14, and according to the method of computation employed in Syria which Luke would have followed, his fifteenth year would have commenced in September to October AD 27.
The Fourth Gospel, the Gospel of John, mentions three Passovers from the baptism of Jesus by John until His crucifixion (John 2:13; John 6:4; John 11:55), the Last Supper celebrated before the Feast of the third Passover (John 13:1).
The third Passover from AD 27 would have been in AD 30. It is therefore generally agreed that the crucifixion of Christ took place about AD 30.
When were New Testament gospels written per scholarly opinion?
When the New Testament Gospels were written is important as the memory of a witness to an event fades with time. Events are more accurately recorded if they are recorded when the event is fresh in the recorder’s (witness’s) mind. If information is attenuated with the passage of time the likelihood of error in relating the event is increased.
The Gospel of Luke per prevalent opinion was written by the same author the Acts of the Apostles, who refers to Luke as the “former account.” For example both are addressed to “Theophilus.” They both have a similar style and vocabulary. Historian Colin Hemer provides the following evidence why Acts was written between A.D. 60 and 62:
1. There is no mention in Acts of the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
2. The Jewish War of 66 AD between the Jews and Romans is not mentioned.
3. The persecutions of the Christians by Nero in the late 60s is not mentioned.
4. The death of James at the hands of the Sanhedrin in 62 AD recorded by Josephus in “Antiquities of the Jews” is not mentioned.
5. The prominence and power of the Sadducees in Acts reflects a pre-70 date, prior to their subsequent hostility to Rome.
6. In Acts the Pharisees are treated relatively sympathetically which would have been unlikely after the council of Jamnia and the Pharisaic revival leading to renewed conflict with Christianity. This is not the case in Luke’s gospel
7. Acts appears to have been written prior to Peter’s arrival in Rome.
8. Acts was written at a time when Gentile “God-fearers” were permitted in the synagogues, a pre-70 date.
There is now a growing acceptance of earlier New Testament dates. Former liberal scholar William F. Albright states: “We can already say emphatically that there is no longer any solid basis for dating any book of the New Testament after about A.D. 80, two full generations before the date between 130 and 150 given by the more radical New Testament critics of today” (“Recent Discoveries in Bible Lands”, 136 from “Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics,” Norman L. Geisler).
It is generally believed the Gospel of Luke was written shortly after Acts, Mathew shortly after 70 AD and John around 100 AD. In his book “Redating the New Testament” John A.T. Robinson, renown in launching the “Death of God” movement, places Matthew at 40 to after 60, Mark at about 45 to 60, Luke at before 57 to after 60, and John at from before 40 to after 65. All the gospels would have been written within the lifetimes of the eyewitnesses of the events vouching for the reliability of the gospels. Jose O’Callahan, a Spanish Jesuit paleographer, identified a manuscript fragment from Qumran on March 18, 1972 as a piece of the Gospel of Mark whose date was ascribed to AD 50).
“The date of the writing of Acts depends on the date we affix to the third Gospel, the Gospel of Luke, for both are parts of one historical work, and the second part appears to have been written soon after the first. There are strong arguments for dating the twofold work not long after Paul’s two years’ detention in Rome (AD 60-62)” (F.F. Bruce, “The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable”).
FF. Bruce continues “The dates of the thirteen Pauline Epistles can be fixed partly by internal and partly by external evidence … There are some writers today who would reject Ephesians; fewer would reject 2 Thessalonians; more would deny that the Pastoral Epistles (1 and 2 Timothy and Titus) came in their present form from the hand of Paul. I accept them all as Pauline, but the remaining eight letters would by themselves be sufficient for our purpose, and it is from these that the main arguments are drawn in our later chapter on ‘The Importance of Paul’s Evidence’.
“Ten of the letters which bear Paul’s name belong to the period before the end of his Roman imprisonment. These ten, in order of writing, may be dated as follows: Galatians 48; 1 and 2 Thessalonians, 50; 1 and 2 Corinthians, 54-56; Romans, 57; Philippians, Colossians, Philemon and Ephesians, c. 60.” The Pastoral Epistles per their diction and historical atmosphere (changed state of affairs in the Pauline churches) were probably compiled later than the other Pauline Epistles in 63-65 AD. This does not present a problem for those who believe in a second imprisonment of Paul in Rome in the year 65 at which time he was probably executed.
lunghushan
02-03-2007, 02:41 AM
JDK, no offense, but this was a CULT. It was a bunch of people who wrote texts, and about 350 years or something after it was s