Playing Devil's Advocate

[lkfmdc]

Old school CMA taught people both fighting and forms. I think everyone can agree with this basic proposition.

Old school usually meant a lot of time was spent practicing with your teacher. I don't even mean how long in the sense of years, I mean hours a day.

Let's, randomly ;) , take a hypothetical person we'll call "Sifu A" to protect his identity :p

Sifu A spent one hour doing basics, one hour doing forms, one hour doing sparring drills and one hour doing actual sparring. That's four hours. He did that five days a week. That is 20 hours a week, or a part time job. Half of that is directly fighting related (10 hours)

Now, let's leave that alone for a minute as far as arguments about the role of forms, etc.... what does today's student do in a typical CMA class?

Let's say the typical CMA class is two hours. Let's say the average person can make 3 classes a week. If you keep the SAME ratio in classes as "old school" then

30 min basics
30 min forms
30 minutes sparring drills
30 minutes actually sparring

1 hour of that class is directly fighting related. They are doing three of them a week. So they are doing 3 hours of fighting practice as opposed to old school 10 hours. That's a little less than a THIRD

Doing one third of the training, can you reasonably expect them to be of the same quality?

Now, of course, some places do one hour classes, and some people come two times a week

Discuss

[Knifefighter]

I doubt that "old school" really did have much sparring, other than just tag, at least before protective equipment was introduced.

Just like "old school" (before gloves) boxing didn't have a lot of sparring, I doubt that CMA did either. Old school boxing was mostly bag work, shadow boxing, drills and conditioning. Regular sparring without protection would result in too much time off from training due to injuries.

[BoulderDawg]

MA is only a small part of my life. I don't live and breath it.

20 hours a week? No way.

I enjoy tennis also but I could never see playing 20 hours a week to try and get better.

[lkfmdc]

Knife fighter, actually, you've stumbled on to another truth of old school...

When we first started training with CTS, we ended up sparring only every three weeks or so. We'd go no gear and try all sorts of stuff and get banged up. Finally, I brought in some boxing gloves. Ironically, CTS said he was wondering when I'd do that! He was funny that way, he sat there and watched us get banged up for MONTHS and never said a word. Then he finally told us how being in the army was the best thing for his trainign because they had gloves, bags, INDOORS ;) the works

[samson818]

Hello all,

Related to this thread I am wondering what you all think about those gongfu groups that do not spar too (if at all) much until their system basics are reinforced thoroughly. This could take anywhere from 1-3 years.
Some systems that come to mind are baji, chen taiji, bagua, bakmei...
I am sure the training varies from school to school.
What are your thoughts on this?

[iron_silk]

I was wondering though...

since you have now focused mainly on sparring and other such...do you still pratice your forms?

Given how many forms CTS knew...don't you miss it from being part of your curriculum...or passing it on to the next gen so to speak?

Thanks

[Pork Chop]

Dangit you guys are going to make me keep posting. LOL

http://www.georgianindex.net/Sport/Boxing/boxing.html#TOP

It remained for Jack Broughton, the champion from 1734 to 1750, to reduce boxing to an accurate "science". He did this by formulating rules and inventing mufflers, or padded gloves to use when practicing or sparring.

That's about 100~150 years before John L Sullivan and definitely before the creation of many of today's popular kung fu styles.

EDIT: another good link with explanation: http://observer.guardian.co.uk/osm/story/0,,803152,00.html

[GeneChing]

When lkfmdc poses the question - 'can you reasonably expect them to be of the same quality?' - if you're just looking at fighting, of course the answer is 'no'. But if your just looking at fighting, you can chuck a lot of CMA out the window. CMA is much broader. There are elements that have been embedded in CMA for centuries - elements such as performance, health maintainence, spirituality - these aren't addressed with such a narrow focus. Sure, fighting is an important element of any MA, but it's not the only element, except for in sports like MMA.

The begs the question of the whole issue of the functionality of forms, which is totally silly. Once you get past a certain age, you understand the utility of forms. Once you take a few injuries, you understand too. My mom used to practice taiji. She's never going to fight. Never. Does that invalidate her practice? Does it make her practice 'not real'? I'd argue that it's harder for her to keep her practice than it is for some young buck to step into the ring. It's all about the context of age.

The greatest martial arts masters are the old ones. They may have paid their dues sparring in their youth, but now, they practice more forms. Many young fighters break their bodies in the ring. In the ring, there's always losers. I don't mean to denigrate those commited to fighting at all. Quite the opposite. I want to celebrate those that have gone on and still practice MA in their 60's, 70's and later. Two days ago, I saw some amazing footage of GM Lu Zijian doing a form at 100+. It blew my mind. That's real kung fu. 100+? My god.

You'll all get old eventually. You'll understand then.

[WinterPalm]

Where I train we more often than not spar with no equipment. When we do this at first, as in beginner stages, you are going slower and working on the mechanics and techniques required in sparring. Then as you progress you are encouraged to go harder and harder with more penetration in attacks and much more intensity. I have taken and given many very hard hits to the head, body, legs, etc. I have had lumps and bruises, not to mention dents in my shins from this practice! To me this teaches you respect from the get go of what you can and cannot do and what an opponent can do to you in a real fight without rules or protective equipment.

We do not spar every class. Sometimes once every week or so. What has this taught me? Getting hit sucks....really, if someone gives you a very hard kick to the ribs or legs, it hurts. WIthout protective equipment we don't learn to take hits and keep going...we learn to evade them and when we get hit, we are all the better for it as we don't train with equipment. I think this is a much more realistic approach. However, we do sometimes wear gloves and increase the closed fist punches to the head...without gloves it is usually hammer fists, backfists, and palms...although punches do get in!

How many times do you get a chance to put up your dukes in a street fight anyway? There is usually a lead up phase or instigation such as sucker punch. Sparring is very important and something I throughly enjoy, but there are other types of self-defense and related skills that cannot be neglected.

I think protective gear like headpads, gloves, and shinpads will allow you to take harder hits and not get as injured, but it denies a certain reality of no gear/pads full contact. For a civilian, and not a fulltime fighter, I would say that this approach makes more sense as it is preparing me for the reality of what my body can and cannot take.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Maybe the question that needs asked is Fitness vs. Fighting:

Kung Fu as a physical exercise for those who are either too old to fight, their bodies are broken down and simply can not, or those who just do not want to. In comparison to those who are training to fight full contact. A Kung Fu stylist does not have to be an effective fighter to practice Kung Fu, so long as they realize what they do is for physical or spiritual gain. The mudslinging that goes on in regards to the "who is a real fighter" debate is old and tired. Simply put, there are those that train to fight and those that do not. The only problem is those that are disillusioned into believing they are able to fight when they do nothing but forms for their martial arts training. There is no way to get better at the fighting aspect other than sparring. Bag work, mitt training, weights, all of these are excellent components, but at the end of the day, sparring is where it is.

[mantis108]

Old school CMA taught people both fighting and forms. I think everyone can agree with this basic proposition.

Old school usually meant a lot of time was spent practicing with your teacher. I don't even mean how long in the sense of years, I mean hours a day.

That I agreed. Also old school teacher would "feed" the moves/spar with the students unless he got too old and he would have his senior student to be in his stead.

Let's, randomly ;) , take a hypothetical person we'll call "Sifu A" to protect his identity :p

Sifu A spent one hour doing basics, one hour doing forms, one hour doing sparring drills and one hour doing actual sparring. That's four hours. He did that five days a week. That is 20 hours a week, or a part time job. Half of that is directly fighting related (10 hours)

This is more of a professional level plus we can't forget China used to be argucultural base economy which means there are "downtimes" from work. Nowadays, in an industrial and somewhat information age, there's no such a thing as downtime for work or entertainment for that matter.

BTW, my friend, who's from Beijing, took old style Fanziquan. He said their practice session is one hour long everyday. They do fight and he got dental work and wrecked shoulder to show thanks to no safety gear proctection. So... :eek:

Now, let's leave that alone for a minute as far as arguments about the role of forms, etc.... what does today's student do in a typical CMA class?

Let's say the typical CMA class is two hours. Let's say the average person can make 3 classes a week. If you keep the SAME ratio in classes as "old school" then

30 min basics
30 min forms
30 minutes sparring drills
30 minutes actually sparring

1 hour of that class is directly fighting related. They are doing three of them a week. So they are doing 3 hours of fighting practice as opposed to old school 10 hours. That's a little less than a THIRD

Well, there are so many variables that this kind of breakdown don't mean anything much I am afraid. Personally, it's about effective communication and stay focus. In this day and age, one would have to teach smart and train smart. One thing remain constant though is that our body takes time to develop regardless how smart we train. So in that case old school training ethic does make more sense.

Doing one third of the training, can you reasonably expect them to be of the same quality?

Quality in what sense? One strike one kill? Use position to submit? Pure power, pure skill or balance of both? Are we talking specializing or are we talking over all performance quality? Don't forget old school training health and ethics are paramount. Fighting is important but it's not the single most important objective.

Now, of course, some places do one hour classes, and some people come two times a week

Discuss

That's the reality of modern society. We can't turn back the clock which is why you 've got some crazy religious fundamentalists trying to stop the clock from clicking. Times change but people always reminisent the good old days. Never mind the Dinosaurs because we can adapted and make things work as effecient as it can be.

Regards

Mantis108

[Chief Fox]

When lkfmdc poses the question - 'can you reasonably expect them to be of the same quality?' - if you're just looking at fighting, of course the answer is 'no'. But if your just looking at fighting, you can chuck a lot of CMA out the window. CMA is much broader. There are elements that have been embedded in CMA for centuries - elements such as performance, health maintainence, spirituality - these aren't addressed with such a narrow focus. Sure, fighting is an important element of any MA, but it's not the only element, except for in sports like MMA.

The begs the question of the whole issue of the functionality of forms, which is totally silly. Once you get past a certain age, you understand the utility of forms. Once you take a few injuries, you understand too. My mom used to practice taiji. She's never going to fight. Never. Does that invalidate her practice? Does it make her practice 'not real'? I'd argue that it's harder for her to keep her practice than it is for some young buck to step into the ring. It's all about the context of age.

The greatest martial arts masters are the old ones. They may have paid their dues sparring in their youth, but now, they practice more forms. Many young fighters break their bodies in the ring. In the ring, there's always losers. I don't mean to denigrate those commited to fighting at all. Quite the opposite. I want to celebrate those that have gone on and still practice MA in their 60's, 70's and later. Two days ago, I saw some amazing footage of GM Lu Zijian doing a form at 100+. It blew my mind. That's real kung fu. 100+? My god.

You'll all get old eventually. You'll understand then.
Great post Gene. I especially love the last quote.

I myself have been dealing with A LOT of injuries over the past few years. It has made me question why am I still doing kung fu? Not that I'm old but I am getting older and injuries are taking longer to heal. Thanks for your words. They helped me to gain a little insight into my own kung fu.

[lkfmdc]

When lkfmdc poses the question - 'can you reasonably expect them to be of the same quality?' - if you're just looking at fighting, of course the answer is 'no'.


Here's one of my fundamental issues with this sort of stuff. Tai Chi aside, how many martial arts schools have the phrase "self defense" in their advertising, on their window, in their literature, etc

Tai Chi aside, how many people doing martial arts think they are learning to fight and/or defend themselves?

Aren't we on the verge of being unethical, perhaps even dangerous, when we lead people to believe they have skills they do not?

I always end up thinking about that 4 foot something, less than 100 lb woman who as a TKD black belt, forms and POINT SPARRING champion. Her friends all said she walked around feeling invincible. She was, after all, a "sparring champion" and a "black belt".. Her false confidense led her to engage in risky behavior. She was found abused and dead in a ditch one night :o :(



CMA is much broader. There are elements that have been embedded in CMA for centuries - elements such as performance, health maintainence, spirituality - these aren't addressed with such a narrow focus.



My students are very healthy, in fact probably healthier than a lot of watered down McDojo students. Hitting pads, bag work, sparring, all make you fit.

Spirituality? I don't think a MA teacher should be invovled in someone's spirituality. I guess we can disagree on that

Physical education? My students make friends, work out problems in life, learn to set goals, to achieve goals, exand their horizons, etc... all in a "fighting school"




My mom used to practice taiji. She's never going to fight. Never. Does that invalidate her practice? Does it make her practice 'not real'?

I'd argue that it's harder for her to keep her practice than it is for some young buck to step into the ring. It's all about the context of age.



I doubt your mother thought she was a fighter and probably didn't challenge others on internet forums ;)

People do Yoga, heck I do yoga! People play raquet ball! But the fundamental difference is that yoga enthusists and raquet ball players don't think their hobbies make them fighters... only Tai Chi (and Aikido) have been able to come to grips with this dichotomy (sp?)

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Where I train we more often than not spar with no equipment. When we do this at first, as in beginner stages, you are going slower and working on the mechanics and techniques required in sparring. Then as you progress you are encouraged to go harder and harder with more penetration in attacks and much more intensity. I have taken and given many very hard hits to the head, body, legs, etc. I have had lumps and bruises, not to mention dents in my shins from this practice! To me this teaches you respect from the get go of what you can and cannot do and what an opponent can do to you in a real fight without rules or protective equipment.

We do not spar every class. Sometimes once every week or so. What has this taught me? Getting hit sucks....really, if someone gives you a very hard kick to the ribs or legs, it hurts. WIthout protective equipment we don't learn to take hits and keep going...we learn to evade them and when we get hit, we are all the better for it as we don't train with equipment. I think this is a much more realistic approach. However, we do sometimes wear gloves and increase the closed fist punches to the head...without gloves it is usually hammer fists, backfists, and palms...although punches do get in!

How many times do you get a chance to put up your dukes in a street fight anyway? There is usually a lead up phase or instigation such as sucker punch. Sparring is very important and something I throughly enjoy, but there are other types of self-defense and related skills that cannot be neglected.

I think protective gear like headpads, gloves, and shinpads will allow you to take harder hits and not get as injured, but it denies a certain reality of no gear/pads full contact. For a civilian, and not a fulltime fighter, I would say that this approach makes more sense as it is preparing me for the reality of what my body can and cannot take.


The biggest problem I have with not wearing equipment is most people pull their techniques whether they realize it or not. When wearing equipment, you can go harder and have less chance of injury, which for most of us who work for a living we have to do.

[Shaolinlueb]

this is with a sifu correct?

if the sifu sucks, then the training sucks, so whats the point of spending all that time training if it sucks.

if the little training is awesome i would rather be with that sifu even if its not as much.

[Chief Fox]

Here's one of my fundamental issues with this sort of stuff. Tai Chi aside, how many martial arts schools have the phrase "self defense" in their advertising, on their window, in their literature, etc

Tai Chi aside, how many people doing martial arts think they are learning to fight and/or defend themselves?

Aren't we on the verge of being unethical, perhaps even dangerous, when we lead people to believe they have skills they do not?

I always end up thinking about that 4 foot something, less than 100 lb woman who as a TKD black belt, forms and POINT SPARRING champion. Her friends all said she walked around feeling invincible. She was, after all, a "sparring champion" and a "black belt".. Her false confidense led her to engage in risky behavior. She was found abused and dead in a ditch one night :o :(



My students are very healthy, in fact probably healthier than a lot of watered down McDojo students. Hitting pads, bag work, sparring, all make you fit.

Spirituality? I don't think a MA teacher should be invovled in someone's spirituality. I guess we can disagree on that

Physical education? My students make friends, work out problems in life, learn to set goals, to achieve goals, exand their horizons, etc... all in a "fighting school"




I doubt your mother thought she was a fighter and probably didn't challenge others on internet forums ;)

People do Yoga, heck I do yoga! People play raquet ball! But the fundamental difference is that yoga enthusists and raquet ball players don't think their hobbies make them fighters... only Tai Chi (and Aikido) have been able to come to grips with this dichotomy (sp?)
I think Gene's point was that you can't be a fighter forever. Or at least not everyone can.

And if you're going to criticize McDojo's for giving people a false sense of security you better lump yourself in there as well. THE STREET IS NOT THE RING. Just because a person is a great ring fighter doesn't mean they won't get beat over the head with a bar stool, stabbed or even shot.

What really needs to be done is, you have to define "self defense". McDojo's teach basic punches and kicks. This is "self defense" to a degree. Some schools teach to a higher degree, some to a lower. The responsibility to define to what degree is up to the teacher and student.

[Golden Arms]

After about 5 years of consistant Aikido training, I had not only thrown a pretty good amature boxer buddy of mine on his head when we sparred, but also defended myself from a person with a knife trying to stab me, both throwing them and disarming the knife before I even realized what happened. You are right LKFMDC, I wasnt training to fight, those were both "health" situations that a squash player could have dealt with in a similar manner:rolleyes: . I still to this day dont get why so many people think aiki doesnt work.

That being said, my own teacher told me that the unfortunate side of softer arts is that, unlike others, you are not guaranteed proficiency in them no matter how long you train, some people get it and some people dont. I personally think faith has a lot to do with it. If you can have faith in not trying to muscle it, you eventually pick up the skills, if not, you never really let go of your old way, and then you are almost worse off than you were before you started.

I still use iriminage to freak the *&^% out of san shou and my other arts people I run across on occasion, that movement alone is one of the most intimidating things I know when applied reasonably well.

[lkfmdc]

And if you're going to criticize McDojo's for giving people a false sense of security you better lump yourself in there as well. THE STREET IS NOT THE RING. Just because a person is a great ring fighter doesn't mean they won't get beat over the head with a bar stool, stabbed or even shot.



Another essentially flawed mentality, that "sport" stuff has no relation to being able to use your skills in "self defense"

Being able to block a full power punch to your head, thrown "alive", is certainy an essential "self defense" skill

So is being able to stop a charging agressor trying to tackle you

So is learning how to get back on your feet when someone is on top of you, trying to hold you down...

If you want to use the term "sport" as if that's pejorative, because we don't focus our training in things like "dirty fighting" then I can go back to an earlier statement I made

Assuming it's the street and somone wants to get "dirty", who is in a better position to do it? The guy who got tackled and is pinnned down or the guy who charged, tackled and is on top?

If you can't consistently land a jab in sparring, why do you think you can eye strike someone in a real fight?

Most of my students aren't "fighters" and never even step into a ring, but ALL can block punches, throw punches, throw kicks, stop tackles and know the basics of clinching... I'd say that makes them 200% more prepared for the street than most TMA people

[lkfmdc]

Furthermore, since my students train day to day and spar with active fighters, they don't have inflated or false senses of their own skills, people in my gym know what they can and can NOT do....

[lkfmdc]

Golden Arm, I think you entirely missed my point. Ueyshiba's own writings state he was trying to create an art for a purpose other than fighting. And most Aikido Dojo embrace this idea... Very few Aikido dojo advertise what they do as self defense..

Since Aikido is based upon Jiujitsu, of course you can use the techniques, SOME can anyway.. but by and large that is NOT aikido's focus and also, by and large most Aikido people don't walk around thinking they are deadly samurai fighters

[Golden Arms]

Those are good points, however I would also add "situational awareness" into the mix. I knew a guy that trained Hung for a long time, then won some golden gloves and wanted to train to be a pro boxer...he flirted with the wrong girl one night at a club, came outside, and her boyfriend hit him in the back of the head with a pipe, brain damage resulted. Another friend of mine was an amature boxer, tried to break up a fight 4 years back, and was literally disemboweled by a 15 year old homeless kid with a knife. He was a good fighter and could also bench 350+, now he cant even work out or his scar tissue will tear, so he has to stay thin. Situational awareness could have played parts in both of these events.

[Golden Arms]

By the way I am playing devils advocate as well ;) I actually agree with you, most trained ring fighters can wipe the floor with anyone else that doesnt have similar experience. But sport is not the only path to that skill set, just an often walked one.

[lkfmdc]

why are ring fighters also just plain better fighters?

it's actually simple... a big part of making something work is your state of mind... any time a person is challenged and/or stressed, adrenaline plays a huge factor

you get a call at work that a family member has been in an accident, suddenly you can't find your keys, you can't fit your keys in your car door, your hands shake, you make the wrong turn, you get stressed out

you may have practiced the same choke defense 1000 times but it's different in class than when you are actually attacked one night on the street

the body doesn't know the difference between sport induced stress and life and death induced stress.... the more you fight in a ring, in a cage, on a mat, the more your body is used to adrenaline and stress. The more used your body is to that, the easier it functions...

Part of CTS skill was simply that he was a "cool customer", after so many fights and death and mayhem and war, nothing rattled him...

[GeneChing]

Chinese martial arts is inclusive, not exclusive. For CMA to perpetuate, or dare I say 'grow', it's not helpful to denigrate others that don't fit into your mold. It's not like our community is that large. All martial arts is still a smaller market than paintball. Think about that for a while. If we keep saying, 'this dude's not in the club because he doesn't fight' soon we'll have a club of two, and one will have to be the loser.

But to be Devil's advocate to lkfmdc's Devil's advocate:
how many martial arts schools have the phrase "self defense" in their advertising, on their window, in their literature, etc Again, you're being way too limited in your thinking here. Ever look at cold remedies? They say 'self defense'. If kung fu practice keeps away colds, is it self defense?

how many people doing martial arts think they are learning to fight and/or defend themselves? Probably the same amount of people that think reality TV is real. Frankly, there are some people that will never be able to defend themselves. Never. They just don't have the fire. However, we can at least provide them with an opportunity to discover that. It's an immensily hard lesson, and most don't see it through; they just quit. Nevertheless, one of the most important roles of the martial arts is exposing weakness.

Aren't we on the verge of being unethical, perhaps even dangerous, when we lead people to believe they have skills they do not? There's one born every minute. People will always be deluded. There will always be ego. Is it unethical to take advantage of ego?

I always end up thinking about that 4 foot something, less than 100 lb woman who as a TKD black belt, forms and POINT SPARRING champion. Her friends all said she walked around feeling invincible. She was, after all, a "sparring champion" and a "black belt".. Her false confidense led her to engage in risky behavior. She was found abused and dead in a ditch one night OK, this is terrorist paranoid thinking, and the greatest flaw in your argument. You presume that it was false confidence in this case. Who knows the actual scenario? But beyond that, you presume that a better fighter could have used martial arts to defend themselves. I've seen very talented street fighters fall simply because they were outnumbered, outgunned, or just plain unlucky. Even the best fighter can lose on the street if the scenario is such.

My students are very healthy, in fact probably healthier than a lot of watered down McDojo students. Hitting pads, bag work, sparring, all make you fit. Ahh, see, I could care less about your students. That's you're ego wanting to say your students are better. And they probably are. But that's not really part of this discussion. I'm not saying that fighters are bad - not at all. I'm just saying that it's only one fraction of what CMA can be.

Spirituality? I don't think a MA teacher should be invovled in someone's spirituality. I guess we can disagree on that I think everything should be engaged on a spiritual level to some degree, especially a discipline. Otherwise, you're a zombie or a robot. But I'll agree to disagree with you here. ;)

Physical education? My students make friends, work out problems in life, learn to set goals, to achieve goals, exand their horizons, etc... all in a "fighting school" Yea, yea, your students, your students, your students. Is this about your students or about limiting martial arts just to fighters? :p

I doubt your mother thought she was a fighter and probably didn't challenge others on internet forums True. But if you react to every challenge put forth on the internet with a flame war, well, what does that say about you? ;)

People do Yoga, heck I do yoga! People play raquet ball! But the fundamental difference is that yoga enthusists and raquet ball players don't think their hobbies make them fighters... only Tai Chi (and Aikido) have been able to come to grips with this dichotomy (sp?) Going back to my mom, in her own way, she's a fighter. She's a caretaker for several elderly friends who are now alone or suffer from disablities. She's just not a ring fighter. Fight the good fight, not the ego fight.

[lkfmdc]

OK, this is terrorist paranoid thinking



A great man once said "you may not be interested in war, but war may be interested in you"

A much lesser man said "just because you are paranoid doesn't mean there aren't in fact people out to get you"...

[Blacktiger]

Going back to my mom, in her own way, she's a fighter. She's a caretaker for several elderly friends who are now alone or suffer from disablities. She's just not a ring fighter. Fight the good fight, not the ego fight.

Exactly get rid of your ego and then see how things look.

[Chief Fox]

Another essentially flawed mentality, that "sport" stuff has no relation to being able to use your skills in "self defense"

Ahhh, you put words in my mouth. They taste bad, I spit them at you. I didnn't say "sport". I simply said "the street is not the ring". The street has no rules. A friend of mine got hit with metal bar stool. Huge cut right on his temple. No amount of training can prepare you for this.

Being able to block a full power punch to your head, thrown "alive", is certainy an essential "self defense" skill

I agree and I would also say that if MA school is not drilling these techniques then they are not a MA school.

So is being able to stop a charging agressor trying to tackle you

True.

So is learning how to get back on your feet when someone is on top of you, trying to hold you down...

I agree.

If you want to use the term "sport" as if that's pejorative, because we don't focus our training in things like "dirty fighting" then I can go back to an earlier statement I made

Assuming it's the street and somone wants to get "dirty", who is in a better position to do it? The guy who got tackled and is pinnned down or the guy who charged, tackled and is on top?

Again, you put words in my mouth. I didn't use the word sport and I didn't mention any "dirty" fighting. Who ever is on top is for sure in a dominant position. But if you're on top and I stab you with my knife then I win.


If you can't consistently land a jab in sparring, why do you think you can eye strike someone in a real fight?

I won't "eye strike" and never mentioned it. I'll simply hit you with my 18" colapsable baton.

Most of my students aren't "fighters" and never even step into a ring, but ALL can block punches, throw punches, throw kicks, stop tackles and know the basics of clinching... I'd say that makes them 200% more prepared for the street than most TMA people
I'd say 180% but I'm not sure where you get your numbers. I pull mine out of my a$$.

[lkfmdc]

I'll simply hit you with my 18" colapsable baton.



at the same time, do you scream "this is how to slide a spear" :D

oh, and MINE is 20" ;)

[GeneChing]

"No references to the need to fight terror can be an argument for restricting human rights" ~ Vladimir Putin

Just because there is evil in the world, we cannot deny the right of some individuals to dress up like Jet Li and prance about like a Rennaisance Faire flunky. We might not agree with it, but this is America. They have the right to express the art as they see fit. It may not be good art, but they still have the right.

Be open minded. For ring fighting to thrive, some one's got to fight, but a larger number need to be in the audience to support that fight. I'm going to an I.S.K.A sanctioned fight tonight. I'll try to remember to leave my Jet Li costume at home. ;)

[Chief Fox]

Ok, maybe I'm being difficult.

I think what you're trying to say is, if you're going to practice a martial art, then why not practice it as "real" as possible, in all fighting ranges.

If this is what you're trying to say, then I couldn't agree more.

But let's take this one step further. Let's add weapons to the scenario. Obviously anyone with a weapon, any kind of weapon, has an advantage over an unarmed opponent.

The first logical weapon to defend against or train with would be a knife, then maybe a colapsable baton and then finally if you want to take the next level, a firearm.

Of course unarmed knife defense is pretty dang stupid but in a cornered situation what do you do?

Who trains for this?

[Chief Fox]

oh, and MINE is 20" ;)

Show off. :p

[lkfmdc]

At this point, it would be good to have Knife Fighter return and share his thoughts on weapons...

I tend to believe, but yet to have a firm decision upon, that teaching people to use a weapon for self defense presents a variety of problems. One would be legal. I live in NY where carry permits for guns are hard to get for example and I believe (not sure) pepper spray is still illegal. Another would be the fact that I've read studies that say a lot of people don't have the determination to pull the trigger when it comes to the real situation. Finally, a weapon you carry can be taken away and used against you...

I think at some point in your martial arts education you should learn some weapon defenses.... thought sadly based upon what training I've had and seen, this is the WEAKEST area in so called TMA....

[lkfmdc]

we cannot deny the right of some individuals to dress up like Jet Li and prance about like a Rennaisance Faire flunky.



Gene, I live in NY and go to the village holloween parade every year, I have no objections to grown men acting like faires :D

But if said man/women/3rd gender suggests that the plastic ninja sword they have as part of their outfit means they are a deadly swordsman :eek:

People who say "I do this for health" or "I do this for culture" or "I do this for the art" are FINE BY ME... and the real ones also accept the corralary (sp?) that it means they aren't fighters...

Honestly, some of my friends in Japanese Budo are the most in touch with this reality and the most grounded

[Knifefighter]

The first logical weapon to defend against or train with would be a knife, then maybe a colapsable baton and then finally if you want to take the next level, a firearm.

Of course unarmed knife defense is pretty dang stupid but in a cornered situation what do you do?

Who trains for this?
Fighting is a sub-set of self defense.

Training with and against weapons is a sub-set of fighting.

I think anyone who trains for self-defense should be training the subset of weapons- both with and against.

Here are a few reasons why:

http://www.youtube.com/v/FyiZLvHC2rM

http://www.youtube.com/v/lnR5ZcOunzg

http://www.youtube.com/v/pmv4p8eXkzs

[Chief Fox]

We have Youtube blocked here at work.

Are those the videos of the knife wound people with the big slashes across the guys chest and back? I've seen all of those. Very convincing.

I totally agree. If you're going to train to fight, it makes complete sense to train to use and defend against weapons.

So the well rounded fighter would include, striking, ground fighting, and weapons training.

Some also may train in spear sliding. :D

[GeneChing]

Gene, I live in NY and go to the village holloween parade every year, I have no objections to grown men acting like faires I live near S.F. Don't even try to go here with me...:p

But if said man/women/3rd gender suggests that the plastic ninja sword they have as part of their outfit means they are a deadly swordsman Do you really have people in NY claiming this? Here in S.F., we know the difference between plastic and real. :eek:

People who say "I do this for health" or "I do this for culture" or "I do this for the art" are FINE BY ME... and the real ones also accept the corralary (sp?) that it means they aren't fighters... Ah, see, that again betrays your prejudice - real ones/aren't fighters. There are people who fight for their health (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=353) and people who fight for their culture. It's all a matter of where you set your blinders. In some neighborhoods, the potential that some one might inflict bodily harm upon you is certainly more significant than in other places. It's relative like when Indiana was declared a terrorist target (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/07/12/MNGVIJTL5J1.DTL). You can live your life in fear of that sort of thing. I had a buddy who would never sit at a bar with his back to the door. I can sympathize with that, but I'd much rather sit facing the pretty girls at the bar (don't tell my wife about that, okay? :o ) The bottom line is that old 'terror in the streets' routine is getting old and tired. Americans are ready for something fresh and more optimistic.

What's more, you can't discount those other fights. If the only fight you can imagine is with some mugger in a back alley, you haven't lived much life yet. There are so many other kinds of fights and different interpretations of CMA can address that. That's where flexibility comes into play.

Honestly, some of my friends in Japanese Budo are the most in touch with this reality and the most grounded I hear ya there. Budo has this great formal militant attitude that's just so Japanese. You got to respect that. CMA is just crazy. It's noisy, it's undefined, it's messy, a bit like a Chinese banquet. It's got so much cultural baggage. But therein lies its treasure trove too.

In all honesty, I hear what your saying and I'm just playing Devil's advocate because I'm sure somewhere in this thread, I'll be able to sell something eventually (my back issue post above doesn't count). I think you should just let the little poseurs be. Do your practice. Don't be offended by others practice if it's less than yours. That's just silly. You'll drive yourself nuts that way.

[Yum Cha]

David v Gene - now that's worth the price of admission.

Gene, leading in round 3 on points, David looking the part, but not landing any damaging blows....

Corner advice: David - Gene has you on perspective. Yours is too narrow buddy, get out there and show your depth, innovate, show some creativity. Don't let that mild physique and light bone structure fool you, you're dealing with one of the best in the business there. He's not even trying to hurt you yet.

Sorry Gene, I always like to help out the underdog....they have the most to learn/gain.

[Yum Cha]

Just tying a few threads together, let me get this right. David, have you made the following points recently?

1. You have to wear gloves to get "full" power into your strikes. Gloves and wraps enable you to get more strength into your strikes.

2. When you fight bare handed, you avoid body blows and head blows because you can break your hands on elbows or even somebody's hard hear. Especially the pinky metacarpal.

3. Training to fight bare handed was a waste of time until people started using protective gear on their hands, so they could deliver the power.

4. Self defense on the street is an illusion if you don't train with gloves?

Are you that guy I saw on the subway all gloved up?

:D

I think there is an issue here that Knife and David don't acknowledge.

Sure, pounding away on an opponent with heavy strikes is a legit and effective way of fighting. No debate.

Wrestling/JJ techniques are effective, and can be very technical, requiring a lot of training and practice. Once you figure out how they work, you can be massive. No debate.

BUT, technical striking, using targeting, shaped hands and other "techniques" are simply unworkable? You tried once and it didn't work?

I can hold my own against boxers and kickboxers, but I may get done by a grappler one day, and it worries me - I inform myself. Yet you don't think its worthy to consider you might get done by a "stylist" one day?

I don't really have a problem with that mindset, mind you, I'll take any advantage I can get if I need it.

--

Great story (IMHO) - a MA friend of mine was entertaining the reigning Irish Full Contact Karate champion in Sydney many years back. Hard man, very hard. Down at the pub he decided to show off, and said, who do you think is the toughest guy in the place? My friend arbitrarily pointed out a hefty Maori at the bar. The Irish dude went up and faced him, saying "ay mate, I can kick your arse." The maori put his hands up and said, "No way bra! I don't wanna fight! than planted a massive coco-butt right on his nose. As they took him off to hospital, with his nose spread across his face and the blood pouring out, all he could say was "fookin good one that was, fookin good one!!"

Not really relevant, but a good story nevertheless for people who think they are invincible - 4 foot nothing or 6 foot 5.

[lkfmdc]

1. You have to wear gloves to get "full" power into your strikes. Gloves and wraps enable you to get more strength into your strikes.

2. When you fight bare handed, you avoid body blows and head blows because you can break your hands on elbows or even somebody's hard hear. Especially the pinky metacarpal.

3. Training to fight bare handed was a waste of time until people started using protective gear on their hands, so they could deliver the power.

4. Self defense on the street is an illusion if you don't train with gloves?




I don't know if you're just trying to be funny, but you totally mis represented what I said.

Trainig striking without gloves can lead to hand injuries. In self defense, a broken hand is a small price for survival. But in regular every day training why break your hand over and over again

Gloves are for training, or for cometition

Competition isn't life or death, it's a training tool. Why break your hand in competition and miss work when you can simply wear gloves, get some good work in, and still go to work the next day

Please don't mis represent what I say

[Knifefighter]

BUT, technical striking, using targeting, shaped hands and other "techniques" are simply unworkable? .
Depends... explain "targeting, shaped hands, and other techniques" and when you would use them.

[lkfmdc]

What's more, you can't discount those other fights.



I've already said this a few times Gene, but I can respect people doing an activity for recreation, for art, for culture, for health, for yucks, etc....

But if they lose perspective on what they are actually doing, that's the issue

There are guys who dress up in civil war uniforms and re-enact historic battles. It's fun, it's history, it's educational... but if those guys wake up and decide they know enough military tactics to invade Iran? :eek:

[Yum Cha]

I don't know if you're just trying to be funny, but you totally mis represented what I said.

....In self defense, a broken hand is a small price for survival.

David
Well, trying to be humourous, light hearted, maybe, funny, naaaa, I kinda wait for the better openings before I go there.

I was trying to pick up on things you said, points you made in the current threads, that seemingly created a paradox in my mind. To spell it out more straightforwardly, with no maliciousness, it appeas you are saying that power is good, more the better, but it is dangerous, because you can break your hands without protection. Yet, real deal is not going to find you with that all important protection, thus, you will be exposing yourself to that injury. I don't think that is a misrepresentation of what you said, however, I understand it may not be what you meant.

You said that a broken hand is a small price to pay for survival - I contend a broken hand may insure that you DON'T survive in an extreme situation. Lets say you can handle the pain, it will still diminish your ability.

Knife,
I learned a while ago, it just doesn't make sense to say, I'd do this, than the other guy says, oh yea, I'd do this, than the first says, in that case I'd so this and that, etc, so it with a significant hesitation I even continue.

Shaped hands: Phoenix eye, fingers, thumbs, knife hand, backfist, etc. The list is long and well known.

Targetting: button of the chin, under the jaw, ears, either side of the neck, bridge of the nose, temple, floating rib, wedding tackle, inside of thigh, side of knee, instep, and so many more. I know I'm not telling you anythig you don't know.

When you use them? I gave you a real life example awhile back which you couldn't believe, so with all respect, you don't really want to know, do you?

Your issue is not in knowing what or how, but in having the actual ability to do so. Am I incorrect? You "know" a lot of these "techniques", you just don't think its possible to pull them off with significant effect.

I sympathise, and I even agree to some extent, especially when I see what some of the complexity people try and train to do, and their inability to summon up significant power. I'm a firm believer in direct hard action, in that strategic quarter, we probably share a lot.

It comes down to training methods. And, who can disagree that how you train is how you fight?

[Yum Cha]

There are guys who dress up in civil war uniforms and re-enact historic battles. It's fun, it's history, it's educational... but if those guys wake up and decide they know enough military tactics to invade Iran? :eek:

No, those guys are down guarding the Mexican border, I believe....

[Anthony]

"Old school usually meant a lot of time was spent practicing with your teacher. I don't even mean how long in the sense of years, I mean hours a day."

To get back to the original post........where does this notion come from? What time period are we talking? And....why did people have so much time back then? Didn't they have to survive as we do today? I would imagine that they worked all day like we do, maybe not at a job but at home or in the fields. If they had children....more work.


There tends to be a common belief that MAists in "the past" were better. I'm not sure what this is based on since there is almost no record of how they fought.

But, then again, they didn't have the internet so they probably did spend more time practicing.

[lkfmdc]

"Old school usually meant a lot of time was spent practicing with your teacher. I don't even mean how long in the sense of years, I mean hours a day."

To get back to the original post........where does this notion come from? What time period are we talking? And....why did people have so much time back then? Didn't they have to survive as we do today? I would imagine that they worked all day like we do, maybe not at a job but at home or in the fields. If they had children....more work.



Uh, how to best put this? When I was training nad hanging around with other people that were training, had friends doing different styles in different schools in China town, almost all of us were BUMS.... yeah, most of us were pretty young, but by most society standards we were wastes of space... all of our free time was spent in Chinatown doing Kung Fu.... :eek:

[Yao Sing]

A few peeps here are talking perspective and others just rail at the extremes.

Who is going to attempt to mug you in a parking lot, a BJJ blackbelt or a street druggie/wino looking for a fix?

Who is going to start a fight with you in a bar, a highly trained MMA fighter or a drunk jock who thinks MA training is for faags.

Whenever the issue of MA self defense training comes up it's always countered with examples of highly trained fighters.

Some say a phoenix eye strike won't stop a trained ring fighter. Who cares? I don't expect to be fighting a trained ring fighter in the street in the first place. As long as it gives me the edge in a realistic scenerio street fight I'm fine.

So keep it in perspective. Self defense is taught at most schools. Self defense being basic punching, kicking and blocking. They teach how to deal with different scenerios.

I don't think anyone believes these are the best choices for ring fighting or against a highly trained fighter. They're meant for street lowlifes and are usually designed for you to survive the initial attack and get in a position to get the hellio out of there. Finishing off an attacker will most likely result in charges against you anyhow.

[bodhitree]

For one thing drunken jocks in bars can have skills, and so can desperate junkies who are driven to get what they need to get from you. As far as the original post on this thread, Personally I think this debate is useless, different things work for different people. if your logic leads you to one thing, do it. It is for you. If anothers reasoning leads them to something different, let them. its not you. SOme people like training forms, and many of them probably can fight (based on athletic ability) and I know some mma athletes who cant fight (myself included). I like the points Gene made, i plan on going back to TCMA when I get a little older. To me, this is the same tired debate, again

[Ray Pina]

if your just looking at fighting, you can chuck a lot of CMA out the window. CMA is much broader. There are elements that have been embedded in CMA for centuries - elements such as performance, health maintainence, spirituality

I think this is the BIGGEST problem with CMA. You are talking about tying in elements of Chinese culture into Chinese martial arts. Taoism, Confucianism, Buddhism would be in the background of learning martial arts, tea preparation, flower arrangement... any extra curricular activity, leaisure, open to those with time. Just like today, if you wanted to learn to be a Nascar driver in the south, you'd be surrounded by chewing tabacoo, Rebel Flags, etc..... that doesn't make you a better car driver.

Your mother was not studying Grand Ultimate Boxing, she was taking a small portion of that fighting system's overall curriculum and using it as Chi Gong.... as most "taiji practioners" do. They aren't training taiji. Taiji is a fighting art.

All martial arts are fighting art. The Chinese are losing their fighting art. Has a Chinese fighter ever fought in Pride, UFC, etc.? I ask out of true curiosity? And if so, what style was he using?

This subject in particular urks me because I spent a lot of time training with Chinese, and they just didn't want to get dirty, they didn't want to do the work. But they loved the romance of the thing, the idea. They would look down on fighters as some type of dogs, yet at the same time they made themselves out to be great fighters. So great they didn't have to fight..... but none of them could.

Maybe it's just them. That small group. But I do go out to fight.... and rarely does one run into a TCMA. I haven't run into a Chinese TCMA willing to compare.

With that said, I love the Chinese culture and mind. I just see it being *******ised. If one sees their place in things, and sees themself as a martial artist, they should act accordingly. And this does not mean they have to fight. Not at all. Maybe they have fought enough and learned what they wnated to learn. Maybe they never fought and never want to. But then, knowing their place in the scheme of things, they would carry themself, speak (or not speak) accordingly as well.

I see a lot of posturing in CMA.

[GeneChing]

It's Gene vs. closed minds. I have a lot of respect for David Ross. I respect anyone who makes there living in the martial world. David likes to stir things up around here, but we wouldn't be a 'real' MA forum without some stirrin' up. It can be a bit of a pain when all his fallen newbies come crying to me, but hey, comes with the territory, I suppose. I think David and I agree to disagree on a few points and that's cool. I'm really just playing devil's advocate here to expose more narrow thinking. Which brings me to Ray Pina's post. ;)

I think this is the BIGGEST problem with CMA. You are talking about tying in elements of Chinese culture into Chinese martial arts. Taoism, Confucianism, Buddhism would be in the background of learning martial arts, tea preparation, flower arrangement... any extra curricular activity, leaisure, open to those with time. Just like today, if you wanted to learn to be a Nascar driver in the south, you'd be surrounded by chewing tabacoo, Rebel Flags, etc..... that doesn't make you a better car driver. I'm not saying that it does. But at the same time, the more you learn, the better person you become. That might not translate into being a better fighter, but that's my point. Traditional disciplines aren't only about the result. Traditional tea ceremony is not measured by the tea alone. It's measure by its quality of character building. You can look at martial arts to make you a better fighter AND you can look at it to make you a better person.

Do people talk about Nascar as being spiritual?

Your mother was not studying Grand Ultimate Boxing, she was taking a small portion of that fighting system's overall curriculum and using it as Chi Gong.... as most "taiji practioners" do. They aren't training taiji. Taiji is a fighting art. My mom wasn't even doing qigong. It was just exercise. Taiji originated as a fighting art. Today, it's evolved to encompass a lot more - health, stress relief, hell I saw Heather Locklear doing Tai Chi on some TV sitcom. You gotta love that.

All martial arts are fighting art. The Chinese are losing their fighting art. Has a Chinese fighter ever fought in Pride, UFC, etc.? I ask out of true curiosity? And if so, what style was he using? MMA is a new concept for the Chinese. They are working on it. Have some patience.

This subject in particular urks me because I spent a lot of time training with Chinese, and they just didn't want to get dirty, they didn't want to do the work. But they loved the romance of the thing, the idea. They would look down on fighters as some type of dogs, yet at the same time they made themselves out to be great fighters. So great they didn't have to fight..... but none of them could. I've trained with Chinese that lived in dirt. That's just one reason why they don't like to ground fight. They'd have to roll in dirt and spit. No many clean matts in China yet.

Maybe it's just them. That small group. But I do go out to fight.... and rarely does one run into a TCMA. I haven't run into a Chinese TCMA willing to compare. I was at an ISKA fight last night and there was a PRC Sanda player who faced a Fairtex fighter. I thought it was the most exciting fight of the night. It ended in a draw. Like I said, it's coming, but slowly.

With that said, I love the Chinese culture and mind. I just see it being *******ised. If one sees their place in things, and sees themself as a martial artist, they should act accordingly. And this does not mean they have to fight. Not at all. Maybe they have fought enough and learned what they wnated to learn. Maybe they never fought and never want to. But then, knowing their place in the scheme of things, they would carry themself, speak (or not speak) accordingly as well. I'm not clear what you're trying to say here. CMA people should be more modest? Everyone should be more modest.

I see a lot of posturing in CMA. I see a lot of posturing in all MA. Just look at any forum ;)

[hjt]

All martial arts are fighting art. The Chinese are losing their fighting art. Has a Chinese fighter ever fought in Pride, UFC, etc.? I ask out of true curiosity? And if so, what style was he using?
.



enjoy my friend

http://www.mmachina.com/en/?q=node/71

[bodhitree]

hjt

Great Link!

[hjt]

All martial arts are fighting art. The Chinese are losing their fighting art. Has a Chinese fighter ever fought in Pride, UFC, etc.? I ask out of true curiosity? And if so, what style was he using?
.


the chinese arent losing their fighting art, it is evolving like boxing, muay thai and grappling did.

they are figuring out that by excluding certain moves which arent effective in a fight and using simple techniques like punching and kicking which are used in kung gu already.

there is no such thing as style when youre ring fighting or fighting in general, you train a style i.e wing chun, hung ga, tkd, jkd or etc etc, but you fight with punching and kicking. when you have fought do you use your kung fu in the ring or do you just punch and kick?

[Ray Pina]

1) I believe the discipline and sacrifice (not the giving up of things, but the making sacred of things, like your training and diet) involved in true martial arts study raises ones spiritual awareness.

The word "spiritual" was never mention once in all the years I trained Issin-Ryu.... yet be began and ended each class kneeling and bowing towards each other. There was respect and humbleness. Not because we were told about it, but because the practice brought it out.

2) Taiji is not evolving, it is devolving. If one trained taiji as a martial art the health aspects are in their automatically... as well as the mental and "spiritual" (I don't like that word, it lends itself to seperate "spiritual" people from non-spiritual people, or "spiritual" activity from non spiritual activity. When there are just people and activities. Everything else is judgement ... not very high level in terms of spirituality).

What I do see, are a lot of people practicing TCMA as a hobby, as a cultural connection to Shaw Brother films. For the most part, they are no where near as fit as fighters, nor as confident and contented. How could they be? I'd feel like a fool if I played an XBox Nascar game and walked around with team patches on my jacket and a cap but coldn't drive and didn't have a license. I would be living a lie.

3) Couldn't link to footage but glad to hear there are Chinese fighters out there fighting San Da and MMA.... however, this is not Wing Chun, S Mantis or Eagle Claw. This is not TCMA. Which brings me back to my point that TCMA has lost touch with its MA and has become a joke... an attraction.

4) Some cold use to be more humble. Other could benefit by being more boystrous.

My point is that I too respect and admire the 100+ year old practioner who has maintained his health. Should 18 to 35 year old men train a martial art like a 100 year old? Or should they train a way a martial artists should for their age and health?

My point on speaking or not speaking relates to credentials: we have so many young men of combat age here speaking up about what martial arts is, how it should be trained, etc., etc., etc..... have they ever compared their skills in free combat against other skilled players?

I wouldn't tell a competitive NASCAR driver how to shift his gears, use his mirros, etc., etc. I drive all the time. I don't drive on that level, know it, and am comfortable saying so. I have nothing to prove, I don't have to talk about how that's not real driving.... no ****, most people don't drive 100+mph. But some do! Some go to that extreme. That is the highest lvel of driving. I listen to them and shut my mouth. I put my blinker on and signal when going 85mph on the speedway.

I know my place in relation to things. If I don't like it and can make a change I do.

In relation to martial arts, someone can post a million forms, the best lineage... if they themselves haven't tested their material they are inexperienced ... that's just the reality of the matter. Their technique can even be great, perfect, but they lack that inner spirit to carry it through.... either way, they are not in a position to comment.

If people truly trained the martial arts with this type of honor there wouldn't be these types of debates. You wouldn't have Sifu Abel dissing KnifeFighter. Even if KF fought terribly (which he didn't), Abel could see where on the path he is, and that he's traveling it earnestly. And there's be respect.

Instead there are phonies and wannabees who want to protect their inability and cover it up with everything BUT experience.... that leads to lineage and form, and all that. Those things in and of themselves are fine. But that's behind the scenese. That should actually be kept to oneself. That's the technology. Instead it's brought to the forefront because there is nothing else.

[hjt]

1) I believe the discipline and sacrifice (not the giving up of things, but the making sacred of things, like your training and diet) involved in true martial arts study raises ones spiritual awareness.

The word "spiritual" was never mention once in all the years I trained Issin-Ryu.... yet be began and ended each class kneeling and bowing towards each other. There was respect and humbleness. Not because we were told about it, but because the practice brought it out..

discipline and sacrifice, is part of everyone's life, whether it be sports, careers, family, and habits. you dont think that the football players or better yet the boxers are discipline waking up at 5 am for that 4 - 6 mile run, training hard everyday in the gym to become a champion? not having a life but just train


3) Couldn't link to footage but glad to hear there are Chinese fighters out there fighting San Da and MMA.... however, this is not Wing Chun, S Mantis or Eagle Claw. This is not TCMA. Which brings me back to my point that TCMA has lost touch with its MA and has become a joke... an attraction...

again when you have fought in the ring or in matches, did you use kung fu ? i highly doubt you did, if you train kung fu you train it one way and use a different way, you modify your stance, your strikes, and your angles, youre not actually going to punch from chamber as youre sitting in a horse or bow arrow stance are you? those are tools to build power and teach you how to shoot from the hip, but doesnt mean that i would punch like that.

i have trained in boxing, traditional martial arts (chinese), muay thai and grappling

and the closest to so called real fighting is boxing and wrestling , kung fu didnt teach me deadly techniques and super natural powers it taught me how to move my body better and generate power from my hips, i know boxing did as well, but it was focused more in kung fu. but when i have fought in the ring and sparred i use simple striking (punching and kicking)

and yes some kung fu has become an attraction, go to china and you can take a pic with a shaolin monk

[Ray Pina]

there is no such thing as style when youre ring fighting or fighting in general, you train a style i.e wing chun, hung ga, tkd, jkd or etc etc, but you fight with punching and kicking. when you have fought do you use your kung fu in the ring or do you just punch and kick?

What you say is politically correct but not true.

A BJJ stylist not only views a fight differently, but looks different (often in body, not only style) than a Thai Boxer, or even a GRecco Wrestler.

A real Thai Boxer's round house kick is different visually and in application than a TKD practioner's round house kick.

Personally, I think I have a different aproach to stand up, and look differently than most of the guys I fought. I charge in to trap hands before punching.... it looks reckless. Yet I don't often get landed on.

So I would say I use my "kung fu" in the ring and cage.... but I can also say I haven't won with it yet. I have learned that I can handle punching there though and that I can handle kicking.... I haven't handled the ground well so now I'm fixing that training under Renzo Gracie.

If it's JUST punching and kicking then no need to train. I wired that as a blackbelt almost 20 years ago. It's how you kick and punch. And every style has their own twist on that.

[Chief Fox]

Uh, how to best put this? When I was training nad hanging around with other people that were training, had friends doing different styles in different schools in China town, almost all of us were BUMS.... yeah, most of us were pretty young, but by most society standards we were wastes of space... all of our free time was spent in Chinatown doing Kung Fu.... :eek:
lkfmdc is a Nad Hanger! :eek:

First Ted Haggard, now this! :D

[Ray Pina]

the unfortunate side of softer arts is that, unlike others, you are not guaranteed proficiency in them no matter how long you train, some people get it and some people dont. I personally think faith has a lot to do with it. If you can have faith in not trying to muscle it, you eventually pick up the skills, if not, you never really let go of your old way, and then you are almost worse off than you were before you started.

Good post!

[lkfmdc]

I have a lot of respect for David Ross.



I have a lot of respect for Gene Ching also. That's why, believe it or not, sometimes I step back so as to not make his life a complete heck :D


David likes to stir things up around here,


I like to think of it as challenging people to think differently, like a Zen Koan... or an ice cream cone? :eek:



but we wouldn't be a 'real' MA forum without some stirrin' up.



Translation, KF and I are responsible for generating pretty much 50% of the discussions on here :p




It can be a bit of a pain when all his fallen newbies come crying to me,



SOUND OF EVIL LAUGHTER IN THE BACKGROUND!


I think David and I agree to disagree on a few points and that's cool.


I also think we AGREE on some stuff ;)

Other than that (and the disappointment at shutting down the homeless hand job thread) I'd like to say one more thing

I don't think the Chinese are new to MMA, I think they invented it, and then just forgot about it, like they forgot about sailing to Africa

[Ray Pina]

I'm sorry for the political incorrectness, but there ARE real martial artists and their ARE total phonies.

For example, not all soldiers see combat. Some will not even leave their bases in the U.S. However, all have undergone a minimum requirement of training to be combat effective.

Martial arts and its aims are different than Yoga and Qi Gong, though many may incorporate them. Many pro football players lift weights. That doesn't make weight lifters pro football players. They are different by what they do.

I'm sorry. One can be THE BEST perFORMER. One can train for years and swing a multitude of fake weapons around, can talk all day about 5 element theory and yin and yang ... can be 150 years old and do form...... there's a certain something inside somone that makes them a martial artists. They can have it and never fight. Just like a Navy Seal is still a Navy Seal even if he leaves service without ever firing his weapon to kill.

Everytime you are exhausted and you switch partners to roll to submission and continue, fight past someone's forearm burried in your neck.... you grow as a martial artist. Every time you're tired after work and you meet up with your group and put the gear on and trade blows even though you wanted to skip training.... you grow as a martial artists. Everytime you sit in some foreign locker room waiting to be called to fight a strange man in a ring or cage, you grow as a martial artist.

This is different than form training and TCM theory though those may be included. Just like being tackled and catching toughdowns are different than bench press and deadlift.

The NO. 1 trait one needs to be a REAL martial artists, is the ability to be true to themself. Without that, you'll never be able to grow. How does one study and evolve technique if they can't be honest with themself... it starts by exposing one's lack.

Many people claiming to be Martial Artists have absolutely nothing, though they claim to be kings.

[cjurakpt]

When I was training nad hanging around with other people that were training, had friends doing different styles in different schools in China town

yeah, it was a real crazy time back then, many different schools of Nad Hanging around, everyone hip to try their style against someone else's: we used to train for hours on end, life was so simple then...ah, the old days

[Royal Dragon]

If people truly trained the martial arts with this type of honor there wouldn't be these types of debates. You wouldn't have Sifu Abel dissing KnifeFighter.

Reply]
Yes you would. Because knife fighter makes rediculous baseless accusations about Abel's art, and he takes offence to that and fires back. Kinfie gives Able plenty of ammo as well.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I think that TCMA is at a crisis/turning point in it's history - especially as it exists in the Western World (ie.- outside of China).

While I agree that potentially it offers a great deal in terms of self defense, health, chi gung, meditation, and a beneficial understanding of such philosophies and religions like Taoism and Buddhism (ie.- spiritual development)...

the "martial" aspect of these arts has come under increasing scepticism (and I include my own art, wing chun, in this category also).

Without serious and regular hard contact sparring (preferably using protective gear to avoid injuries)...and without testing (and adapting when necessary?) TCMA against other proven "fighting" arts like boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Muay Thai, kickboxing, etc....

one is left having to take the fighting efficiency of one's given TCMA pretty much on faith.

FOR A GREAT MANY PEOPLE THIS IS NOT GOING TO CUT IT in the world of 2006 - especially, as I said earlier, in Western countries where reverence/obedience for the "old" masters simply because they're old is not part of the culture (as it is in Chinese culture, ie.- "it's true because they say so")...and expecting them to prove the fighting efficiency of the techniques they teach (or sometimes even simply asking politely for such a demonstration) against a skilled, resisting opponent is considered irreverent and insulting to the "Sifu" or "Master" of a TCMA.

And herein lies the dilemma.

[ngokfei]

What we are talking about is Martial Arts.

What it was:

What it is

and

what it can become.


I guess that is why the term "Combat Arts" has surfaced.

[Royal Dragon]

I don't believe TCMA need to "Adapt", but more get back to thier roots.

Everything you need to be a solid, competant fighter is in TCMA. We just need to get out there and USE it, instead of just prance around with it.

[lkfmdc]

I think that TCMA is at a crisis/turning point in it's history - especially as it exists in the Western World (ie.- outside of China).

While I agree that potentially it offers a great deal in terms of self defense, health, chi gung, meditation, and a beneficial understanding of such philosophies and religions like Taoism and Buddhism (ie.- spiritual development)...

the "martial" aspect of these arts has come under increasing scepticism (and I include my own art, wing chun, in this category also).

Without serious and regular hard contact sparring (preferably using protective gear to avoid injuries)...and without testing (and adapting when necessary?) TCMA against other proven "fighting" arts like boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Muay Thai, kickboxing, etc....

one is left having to take the fighting efficiency of one's given TCMA pretty much on faith.

FOR A GREAT MANY PEOPLE THIS IS NOT GOING TO CUT IT in the world of 2006 - especially, as I said earlier, in Western countries where reverence/obedience for the "old" masters simply because they're old is not part of the culture (as it is in Chinese culture, ie.- "it's true because they say so")...and expecting them to prove the fighting efficiency of the techniques they teach (or sometimes even simply asking politely for such a demonstration) against a skilled, resisting opponent is considered irreverent and insulting to the "Sifu" or "Master" of a TCMA.

And herein lies the dilemma.

another great post Victor!

[Anthony]

"1) I believe the discipline and sacrifice (not the giving up of things, but the making sacred of things, like your training and diet) involved in true martial arts study raises ones spiritual awareness. "


Or not. I think it also depends on the individual. Two people can share the same experience. One (with a more open mind maybe) can derive a major life lesson out of it. The other not at all. One person may also have had to overcome alot more than the other to get to the same place. In which cast they would grow alot more.

Also, I think that the personal growth doesn't come so much from training. Training is safe and controlled, no matter how hard-core you are. It's facing life and death combat that I think changes you spiritually (provided you are guy #1 above). Or, (on a lesser scale maybe) actual competition if youre a sports-person. Even though competition is still controlled.

It's like your example of the two navy seals, both trained in the same way. One sees combat and the other doesn't. Who do you think has grown spiritually? Probably the first one. He may have learned to appreciate life more, or to be less materialistic, or any number of lessons. So, it's not the style or training, it's the actual experience of overcoming the fear of battle and losing your life (I would think). I think this is what truly builds and tests character.

Again, the same is true in sports. If you compete in addition to training, you overcome loss, know who you are and what you can and can't do, eventually you have character because your'e secure and don't have to pretend.



Another thing, the mention of Chinese culture being imbedded in CMA. Tai Chi for example. Everyone has heard that it was originally a "martial" art but that people today do it for health, fitness, etc. Just to throw out some food for thought (and I don't study Tai Chi....I admit) have you ever really listened to the names of the movements in Tai Chi? It's always something along the lines of........"Swan spreads his wings".....or "Clouds part to reveal moon".....etc. (of course I'm making these up). It's never......."soldier breaks his enemies neck".....or "peasant subdues criminal with armbar"......you get my point. What I'm trying to say is that maybe Tai Chi was created as a moving representation of principles of Chinese philisophy, religion, and combat rather than an actual practice to train fighters. Like I said, just food for thought. Maybe the names of the movements are a clue. I could be wrong.


I also think that since we don't have to fight in today's society, the incorporating of Chinese culture into MA is a big part of the attraction of doing it. I'm reminded of Mr. Miyagi teaching Daniel to trim the bonsai tree. I think people love that kind of stuff. Why not get some cultue out of it. I think the interest in the cultural or health aspects have in a way become greater than interest in the fighing aspects. It is martial "arts" not martial "science." If it was about fist fighting only (most people don't have to fight) there would be much less interest in it and why would there be? Why waste so much time and money practicing for something that may not even happen outside of grade school. And if it does, with all the variables involved, you can't possibly train for it. It's not economical at all in today's world.

[yenhoi]

For example, with bladed weapons:

-Where its better to get cut and where you better NOT get cut.

-How to protect your blade if you are using one, and methods for removing other peoples blades or at least rendering them useless somehow.

-Where and how to cut and stab.

-Realistic Sparring and Scenario training.

[LeeCasebolt]

I'm reminded of Mr. Miyagi teaching Daniel to trim the bonsai tree. Why not get some cultue out of it. I think the interest in the cultural aspects have in a way become greater than interest in the fighing aspects. But then again it is Martial "Arts" not "Science."

Someone's going to have to explain to me how bonsai is martial.

It's "martial" arts, not "Asian" arts.

[Anthony]

Someone's going to have to explain to me how bonsai is martial.


It isn't of course. Unless, you look at it from the point of view that trimming a bonsai tree reduces stress and thereby increases your health and life span.....etc. The point that I got out of it was that the "asian" arts have been intertwined with the "martial" arts. How many CMA practitioners try to or actually do learn to speak Chinese? How many learn some basics of Chinese medicine or philosophy? Plenty. You can't seperate Chinese culture from TCMA at this point no matter where you study.

[The Xia]

What I'm trying to say is that maybe Tai Chi was created as a moving representation of principles of Chinese philisophy, religion, and combat rather than an actual practice to train fighters.
It would be an incorrect assumption to say that Tai Chi Chuan has/had nothing to do with combat. The life of Yang Lu Chan disproves this notion.

[Merryprankster]

Not sure who made the points about spirituality, self-improvement, etc,

BUT, since a great many TCMA legendary figures were apparantly more than just a little bit roguish in many ways perhaps we should remember that being a MONK a different task than being a great TCMAist.

Humans are just that. Some TCMA masters I'm sure were full of spiritual and human improvement. And I'm equally sure others were womanizing, gambling carousers.

[SifuAbel]

Wow, you miss a little bit and the whole world fly by....

I don't have the time right now to peice meal answer or argue every bit of this thread. But here are few points for counterpoint.



Let's, randomly ;) , take a hypothetical person we'll call "Sifu A" to protect his identity :p
Sifu A spent one hour doing basics, one hour doing forms, one hour doing sparring drills and one hour doing actual sparring. That's four hours. He did that five days a week. That is 20 hours a week, or a part time job. Half of that is directly fighting related (10 hours)
Now, let's leave that alone for a minute as far as arguments about the role of forms, etc....

I, "sifu A" did indeed do this much training, and more. It was a part time job that grew into a full time job. I was, like DR, a teenage kung fu bum. I did everything. I DO everything. And I concider everything I did as part of the process. To me, form work and everything relates to my fighting ability. So I don't see a separation.

I doubt that "old school" really did have much sparring, other than just tag, at least before protective equipment was introduced.


I didn't come up that way. My teacher's teacher used the avaiable gear of the time since the early 70's. My teacher used gear and we did too. From the beginning it was at an ever escalating level of contact. WE NEVER DID SOFT POINT SPARRING. Granted it couldn't be full contact all the time. But it was hard contact most of the time.

Knife fighter, actually, you've stumbled on to another truth of old school...

When we first started training with CTS, we ended up sparring only every three weeks or so. We'd go no gear and try all sorts of stuff and get banged up. Finally, I brought in some boxing gloves. Ironically, CTS said he was wondering when I'd do that! He was funny that way, he sat there and watched us get banged up for MONTHS and never said a word. Then he finally told us how being in the army was the best thing for his trainign because they had gloves, bags, INDOORS ;) the works

This is a contradiction. He's saying you "played tag" , you are saying you busted each other up on a monthly basis. Maybe CTS didn't want to interfere with what you all wanted.
---

I hear ya, Gene. There is much more.

---

R.Pina,

Your view is way too polarized. Your dislike of form is understandable but to me irrelevant just the same. Just because a person had form work in thier routine doesn't mean they have any less heart as a fighter. You assume too much. And as far as me and butterbut are concerned, you have absolutely no clue. You are coming into the park in the final inning and you can't even tell the players without a program. In other words you are WAY late to know anything.
-------------
Bottom line it all comes down to the PEOPLE whom do what they do. The arts are what they are. If PEOPLE in a particular place do them for another reason than fighting its still not the arts fault.

The person on a spiritual path will find it in any activity they persue. MA has only a casual connection.

[lkfmdc]

is this the first time ever a hypothetical person actually showed up and posted :D

[SifuAbel]

I dunno, didn't jesus come on here once or twice to set us straight? :rolleyes:

[Ray Pina]

again when you have fought in the ring or in matches, did you use kung fu ? i highly doubt you did, if you train kung fu you train it one way and use a different way, you modify your stance, your strikes, and your angles, youre not actually going to punch from chamber as youre sitting in a horse or bow arrow stance are you?

This is the way I train: http://youtube.com/watch?v=1enIDU8r6bU

This is the way I fight: http://youtube.com/watch?v=1zGuQFh9MXo

In my training, you'll see how we kick, how we train it. You'll see me land the same kick in the cage.

In my training, you'll see how I work to jam attacks. You'll see the same thing in every one of my engagements.

I do not train horse stance because I do not ride a horse. I do not train bow-and-arrow stance because I am not shooting arrows from a high partician down onto enemies below. These would have been useful 250 years ago though.

[Royal Dragon]

I do not train horse stance because I do not ride a horse. I do not train bow-and-arrow stance because I am not shooting arrows from a high partician down onto enemies below. These would have been useful 250 years ago though.

Reply]
Actually, looking at your fightclips, it would do you good to hold stances. It would help with your issue of breaking internal structure under pressure.

You seem to rise on to your toes, arch your back, and you lose the head requirement as soon as you are presured the least little bit. That totally breaks all your internal, and leaves you as an external fighter trying to use internal tactics.

I'd reccomend 10 minutes of Horse stance, and 20 minutes of "Hold the ball" 4-5 times a week especially. This will help strengthen your internal structure so it does not fall apart so easily under pressure. Once you have that, your fighting should improve quite a bit.

[Ray Pina]

I definitely have... or had... that bad habit. Especially in that first clip which was filmed now about 2 years ago. I had to rise up just to reach his head.(he was much bigger than me)... bad mistake. Also, I did break my back shape when aproaching fire.

I've worked on these. My under no stress structure is actually really good. And now rolling at Renzo Gracie's my structure is constantly under attack all the time.

Anyway, I believe I solved this problem simply by doing what I've been doing. Takeing what I've been taught and trained and slowly becoming more comfortable with it in actual combat.

Can you provide some combat footage of yourself or students and relate it to some footage of stance training. I'm always interested in feedback from fighters who have tools that have been succesfully implemented in live play.

Thanks
Ray

[Royal Dragon]

I really don't have any footage, just experiance with my Zhao Bao freind, especially over last year.

I did see something on Emptyflower a while back that illistrates how it should be done though. It was a clip of a Zhao Bao Taiji guy fighting a Shui Chiao player. You may have seen it.

You can clearly see how he used his internal structure, and mechanics to prevent numerous takedown attempts. If I can find it later, I'll post the link.

I think a lot of push hands helped me as well, because in Zhao Bao Taiji, they lean in while pushing, and it puts pressure on your structure, so if you are off you know right away and can work on that.

Do you have any reacent clips of how you fight now? I would be curious to see how you have improved over the older ones.

[hjt]

This is the way I train: http://youtube.com/watch?v=1enIDU8r6bU

This is the way I fight: http://youtube.com/watch?v=1zGuQFh9MXo

In my training, you'll see how we kick, how we train it. You'll see me land the same kick in the cage.

In my training, you'll see how I work to jam attacks. You'll see the same thing in every one of my engagements.

I do not train horse stance because I do not ride a horse. I do not train bow-and-arrow stance because I am not shooting arrows from a high partician down onto enemies below. These would have been useful 250 years ago though.

i seen your clips, and i have to say that, you are flailing, you dont have proper posture and connection. your kicks dont have that much behind it and youre not using your hip while kicking, your trapping seem more like your rushing them and than an actually hand trapping. its a common mistake when people dont have or train with proper sparring partners or basic fighting fundamentals.

as for horse and bow arrow stance comment, apparently you dont know much about training stances, these are useful tools for generating power from your hips, some people call it a different thing, but its used in boxing and mma, in boxing and kickboxing its more of a 45 degree angle, while in mma its more of a boxed off stance, to prevent take downs and shoots in other words easier to sprawl.

like i say everyone has their own way to fight, if youre comfortable and feel that your able to win with your techniques keep on training like that

[LifelongLearner]

This may be off topic and maybe a little bit nit-picky, but it's misconceptions like Ray's comments about the purpose or practical use of training a horse stance or bowstance are, in my opinion, a good example of why TCMA have gotten such a bum rap in the US. It's the same kind of ignorance that the hardcore BJJ fanboys love to spew about how ineffective traditional training methods are or when they choose to mock the more esoteric aspects like the animal styles or some of the elaborately named techniques in order to put them down. I can't tell you how many times I've heard someone talking about how useless basic training tools like static stances, footwork and forms are. They typically say things like TCMA only works against TCMA or give imaginary scenarios where the traditional stylist sqaures off against the MMA or BJJ practitioner and attempts to strike some grand and flashy combat stances only to be grounded and pounded.

Just like a previous post said, you assume too much. The static stance work, forms and footwork aren't there for you to be a robot and try to force them to fit every combat scenario. They don't provide all the answers, they're there to give you the tools to function in combat. They're there to give you the strength, speed, balance and coordination to ply your trade. They help you to be a better fighter by making you physically superior, more capable and more likely to win in combat than someone who does not train. They're not the end, they are the foundation and the beginning. The static stances? Consider them a single freeze frame of an ideal position that serves a purpose. It might be transitional, not meant to be stood poised in, but more a single frame of continuous motion designed to put you at an adavantage in any number ways. It might be to teach you to use your hips as was previously mentioned or to help you train a concept that was never meant to be executed at full combat speed exactly as it was trained.

For the most part, you don't see people using the same movements they use when they weight train to fight in the UFC, yet practically all of them weight train because it gives them an edge over someone who doesn't. Is it so hard to accept that some traditional training methods amount to nothing more than a functional equivalent? Certainly some training movements have been misunderstood or misinterpreted. This would only strengthen the arguments of those who want to discredit traditional martial arts. Even if you never use the forms or stances with perfect clean body postition (it's unrealistic to think anyone could always move perfectly like a choreagraphed fight scene in a kung fu flic), even if you get it mostly right from your training you're better off than if you never trained it at all. So IMO, the physical mastery of the basics and intermediate material is only the beginning of a martial artist's task at becoming proficient. At any rate, please don't dismiss such valuable tools as basic stance training simply because you are too ignorant or biased to admit their real purpose. Everything I've said in this post so far is rhetoric to anyone that has put any real thought into the matter.

Come to think of it Ray, I seem to remember a post of yours a long time back (sometime last year maybe?) where you admitted not training your fitness and endurance hard enough and it seemed to me that you used it as pre-fight disclaimer for any future losses, and you seemed to be content with being somewhat of a stoner and beach bum (is that way off the mark? I'm not claiming to quote you word for word), so while I am offended at your comments, I am also unsurprised you would be apt to dismissing such outdated traditional concepts like say......oh I don't know....hard work?

That's a perfect example of what's wrong with traditional martial arts practice in the US. It's the same old song, people want the skills and they want to be taught all the advanced techniques but they don't want to do the work to build the body capable of effectively using those techniques. It's no wonder traditional arts have a bad rap when they generally don't have great practioners to represent them. Whose fault is that? The art or person that doesn't have fire and drive to stay the course?

[hjt]

This may be off topic and maybe a little bit nit-picky, but it's misconceptions like Ray's comments about the purpose or practical use of training a horse stance or bowstance are, in my opinion, a good example of why TCMA have gotten such a bum rap in the US. It's the same kind of ignorance that the hardcore BJJ fanboys love to spew about how ineffective traditional training methods are or when they choose to mock the more esoteric aspects like the animal styles or some of the elaborately named techniques in order to put them down. I can't tell you how many times I've heard someone talking about how useless basic training tools like static stances, footwork and forms are. They typically say things like TCMA only works against TCMA or give imaginary scenarios where the traditional stylist sqaures off against the MMA or BJJ practitioner and attempts to strike some grand and flashy combat stances only to be grounded and pounded.

Just like a previous post said, you assume too much. The static stance work, forms and footwork aren't there for you to be a robot and try to force them to fit every combat scenario. They don't provide all the answers, they're there to give you the tools to function in combat. They're there to give you the strength, speed, balance and coordination to ply your trade. They help you to be a better fighter by making you physically superior, more capable and more likely to win in combat than someone who does not train. They're not the end, they are the foundation and the beginning. The static stances? Consider them a single freeze frame of an ideal position that serves a purpose. It might be transitional, not meant to be stood poised in, but more a single frame of continuous motion designed to put you at an adavantage in any number ways. It might be to teach you to use your hips as was previously mentioned or to help you train a concept that was never meant to be executed at full combat speed exactly as it was trained.

For the most part, you don't see people using the same movements they use when they weight train to fight in the UFC, yet practically all of them weight train because it gives them an edge over someone who doesn't. Is it so hard to accept that some traditional training methods amount to nothing more than a functional equivalent? Certainly some training movements have been misunderstood or misinterpreted. This would only strengthen the arguments of those who want to discredit traditional martial arts. Even if you never use the forms or stances with perfect clean body postition (it's unrealistic to think anyone could always move perfectly like a choreagraphed fight scene in a kung fu flic), even if you get it mostly right from your training you're better off than if you never trained it at all. So IMO, the physical mastery of the basics and intermediate material is only the beginning of a martial artist's task at becoming proficient. At any rate, please don't dismiss such valuable tools as basic stance training simply because you are too ignorant or biased to admit their real purpose. Everything I've said in this post so far is rhetoric to anyone that has put any real thought into the matter.

Come to think of it Ray, I seem to remember a post of yours a long time back (sometime last year maybe?) where you admitted not training your fitness and endurance hard enough and it seemed to me that you used it as pre-fight disclaimer for any future losses, and you seemed to be content with being somewhat of a stoner and beach bum (is that way off the mark? I'm not claiming to quote you word for word), so while I am offended at your comments, I am also unsurprised you would be apt to dismissing such outdated traditional concepts like say......oh I don't know....hard work?

That's a perfect example of what's wrong with traditional martial arts practice in the US. It's the same old song, people want the skills and they want to be taught all the advanced techniques but they don't want to do the work to build the body capable of effectively using those techniques. It's no wonder traditional arts have a bad rap when they generally don't have great practioners to represent them. Whose fault is that? The art or person that doesn't have fire and drive to stay the course?


thank you!!!!

[Ray Pina]

Do you have any reacent clips of how you fight now? I would be curious to see how you have improved over the older ones.


I'll be filming new material on Sun.

[MasterKiller]

challenge issued in 5...4...3...2..1....

[Ray Pina]

It's the same old song, people want the skills and they want to be taught all the advanced techniques but they don't want to do the work to build the body capable of effectively using those techniques. It's no wonder traditional arts have a bad rap when they generally don't have great practioners to represent them. Whose fault is that? The art or person that doesn't have fire and drive to stay the course?

I used to be much more lax about my training. Then I went through a stage where I intensified... still never lifted, but swam and ran. Now I swim and roll.

My conditioning is where it should be now. I have found the proper balance for me to train (learn new stuff, work acquired material and remain fit) at on a regular basis and know how to up that for a serious fight.

However, again, I'm always curious as to why your comments or thoughts should matter to me.... basically, why should I listen to you? Can you posts some footage of your actual fights... can you show real life utilization of these "effective techniques" you acquired by utilising your superior training regiment?

And even better, would you or hjt (who is in NYC) be willing to compare next Sunday at a Throwdown. Pretty much, are you willing and able to do what you are implying... face and defeat me?

[Ray Pina]

challenge issued in 5...4...3...2..1....


You know me too well MasterKIller

hjt you're in NYC and this is a weeks notice so come down to this Sunday's mid-town Throwdown. After that, than we can see who's in a position to say what.

We can go first at noon and get you home for ice by 12:30.

[hjt]

You know me too well MasterKIller

hjt you're in NYC and this is a weeks notice so come down to this Sunday's mid-town Throwdown. After that, than we can see who's in a position to say what.

We can go first at noon and get you home for ice by 12:30.

first of all, i wasnt talking smack, i was commenting on your videos. if youre sensitive about your techniques you shouldnt post them on the net where ppl can see and critique them.

secondly, tell me what will i gain if i spar with you? honestly, nothing. i have no interest in those throwdowns, you go there and learn bad habits, i prefer to train, and spar with my partners in order to compete with actual trained fighters as oppose to some guy that is medicore in grappling and striking. sorry to say that but i m being honest. so keep your challenging to someone that cares about what you have to say.

btw very mature on your behalf of challenging and talking trash

go ahead keep on , if that makes you feel better about yourself. talk all you want.

[hjt]

ray

does renzo know that you go around claiming to be part of his fight team?

[Royal Dragon]

Good to hear, when will they be posted?

[SifuAbel]

This may be off topic and maybe a little bit nit-picky, but it's misconceptions like Ray's comments about the purpose or practical use of training a horse stance or bowstance are, in my opinion, a good example of why TCMA have gotten such a bum rap in the US. It's the same kind of ignorance that the hardcore BJJ fanboys love to spew about how ineffective traditional training methods are or when they choose to mock the more esoteric aspects like the animal styles or some of the elaborately named techniques in order to put them down. I can't tell you how many times I've heard someone talking about how useless basic training tools like static stances, footwork and forms are. They typically say things like TCMA only works against TCMA or give imaginary scenarios where the traditional stylist sqaures off against the MMA or BJJ practitioner and attempts to strike some grand and flashy combat stances only to be grounded and pounded.

Just like a previous post said, you assume too much. The static stance work, forms and footwork aren't there for you to be a robot and try to force them to fit every combat scenario. They don't provide all the answers, they're there to give you the tools to function in combat. They're there to give you the strength, speed, balance and coordination to ply your trade. They help you to be a better fighter by making you physically superior, more capable and more likely to win in combat than someone who does not train. They're not the end, they are the foundation and the beginning. The static stances? Consider them a single freeze frame of an ideal position that serves a purpose. It might be transitional, not meant to be stood poised in, but more a single frame of continuous motion designed to put you at an adavantage in any number ways. It might be to teach you to use your hips as was previously mentioned or to help you train a concept that was never meant to be executed at full combat speed exactly as it was trained.

For the most part, you don't see people using the same movements they use when they weight train to fight in the UFC, yet practically all of them weight train because it gives them an edge over someone who doesn't. Is it so hard to accept that some traditional training methods amount to nothing more than a functional equivalent? Certainly some training movements have been misunderstood or misinterpreted. This would only strengthen the arguments of those who want to discredit traditional martial arts. Even if you never use the forms or stances with perfect clean body postition (it's unrealistic to think anyone could always move perfectly like a choreagraphed fight scene in a kung fu flic), even if you get it mostly right from your training you're better off than if you never trained it at all. So IMO, the physical mastery of the basics and intermediate material is only the beginning of a martial artist's task at becoming proficient. At any rate, please don't dismiss such valuable tools as basic stance training simply because you are too ignorant or biased to admit their real purpose. Everything I've said in this post so far is rhetoric to anyone that has put any real thought into the matter.

Come to think of it Ray, I seem to remember a post of yours a long time back (sometime last year maybe?) where you admitted not training your fitness and endurance hard enough and it seemed to me that you used it as pre-fight disclaimer for any future losses, and you seemed to be content with being somewhat of a stoner and beach bum (is that way off the mark? I'm not claiming to quote you word for word), so while I am offended at your comments, I am also unsurprised you would be apt to dismissing such outdated traditional concepts like say......oh I don't know....hard work?

That's a perfect example of what's wrong with traditional martial arts practice in the US. It's the same old song, people want the skills and they want to be taught all the advanced techniques but they don't want to do the work to build the body capable of effectively using those techniques. It's no wonder traditional arts have a bad rap when they generally don't have great practioners to represent them. Whose fault is that? The art or person that doesn't have fire and drive to stay the course?

Great post, too bad it will be ignored and you'll have to repeat it 1000 times.

Oh, shove it , ray. Nobody has to fight you to express an opinion.

[Ray Pina]

i have no interest in those throwdowns, you go there and learn bad habits, i prefer to train, and spar with my partners in order to compete with actual trained fighters as oppose to some guy that is medicore in grappling and striking..

Don't worry, bad habits aren't contagious. Come, express your training. In all honestly, win or lose you'll learn something about yourself, technique and level of expressing both.

btw very mature on your behalf of challenging and talking trash .

I never talk trash!

I may disagree. Definitely give my point of view. But I never talk trash. I speak my heart and I'm willing to stand by my words. So I'm careful with what I say.

FYI
You are right about structure and training solidly to avoid bad habits. But this is not unlike saying, "Buy low/sell high" when it comes to giving financial advice... it's a given. Universaly understood. Real life is chaotic and nothing fits concretely. Ont op of this, in fighting, the other is purposely fu(king with your structure. If he can't affect your structure at all you are either too big or much better than the other guy.... than, stop being a bully and play with bigger or better (closer to your level) guys.

So far at Throwdowns I find I can get away with murder. In the ring or cage I can't... those guys are better trained. Though many of the guys who attended throwdowns are now training MMA and improving. I've changed too. So we all go back to the drawing bored.

As far as my new mentor, Master Renzo Gracie, he saw my video the other day and simply said, "Nice!" in the way that he does. Obviously he sees the things you see; he sees a sloppy amatuer ... but he saw things you didn't see too. He saw a philosophy of technique that worked under real fire. That can always be fine tuned. He saw fight spirit, calmness under pressure, etc. These things matter.

[Royal Dragon]

I think you were good in your philosiphy of technique, you just need to really work on your structure, and mechanics in those old clips. I am looking forward to seeing the new ones.

[lkfmdc]

Meanwhile, whily everyone is kung fu fighting ;) ....

back on topic

Old school CMA taught people both fighting and forms. I think everyone can agree with this basic proposition.

Old school usually meant a lot of time was spent practicing with your teacher. I don't even mean how long in the sense of years, I mean hours a day.

Let's, randomly ;) , take a hypothetical person we'll call "Sifu A" to protect his identity :p

Sifu A spent one hour doing basics, one hour doing forms, one hour doing sparring drills and one hour doing actual sparring. That's four hours. He did that five days a week. That is 20 hours a week, or a part time job. Half of that is directly fighting related (10 hours)

Now, let's leave that alone for a minute as far as arguments about the role of forms, etc.... what does today's student do in a typical CMA class?

Let's say the typical CMA class is two hours. Let's say the average person can make 3 classes a week. If you keep the SAME ratio in classes as "old school" then

30 min basics
30 min forms
30 minutes sparring drills
30 minutes actually sparring

1 hour of that class is directly fighting related. They are doing three of them a week. So they are doing 3 hours of fighting practice as opposed to old school 10 hours. That's a little less than a THIRD

Doing one third of the training, can you reasonably expect them to be of the same quality?

Now, of course, some places do one hour classes, and some people come two times a week

Discuss

If people aren't training the same way they did in the past.... should we train them the same way as trainign was done in the past?

[SifuAbel]

A more curtailed and time restrained version of what I/you did wouldn't be a bad thing for the hobbyist.

And thats what the 3 hour a week guy is, a hobbyist.

The main difference is in what you and I concider important.

If all you got is short term and you want to go the ring, then by all means be as sim