dit da jow [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Samurai Jack

11-07-2006, 07:16 AM

It is entirely dependant on what you are using. Dit Da Jow is a type of medicine, but there are all kinds, some of them for very different purposes. It's like using the phrase "cough syrup", or "cold medicine." Are you talking Guifenasin, dyphenhydramine, pseudoephedrine, or something else?

Anyway, there are many kinds of Dit Da Jow. What kind are you using?

stainlesschi

11-07-2006, 08:22 AM

master yaus family jow,,,multi purpose
http://www.chinesehealtharts.co.uk/shop.asp?style=lotion
there the site if you wouldnt mind checking it out for me

Samurai Jack

11-07-2006, 11:44 PM

I cannot vouch for what you are using, but for a sprain, I'd recommend something that has Methyl Salicilate (an analgesic) to reduce inflamation. Not all mentholated jows have this ingredient, but for an injury such as yours in the acute stage, I'd recommend it.

My external liniment for general healing (once the swelling goes down) takes about three to seven days for a minor sprain. That is with ibuprofen to control inflammation, which can sometimes return if you keep training with the injury.

I also use a "cooking" type jow when the injury calls for heat, and an internal jow as a general tonic when I've been beat up for awhile. Sometimes I have to train for more than two weeks in a row without a break and that really wears you down unless you use an internal jow.

I hope this helps. Your teacher's or Chinese medical practitioner can give more detailed advice to your specific case.

lhommedieu

11-17-2006, 02:49 PM

Re. you jow it's hard to tell from the website what exactly is in the jow or for what purpose it is used. Generally speaking there are two kinds of jows: those used for older chronic injuries that tend to be warming, and those used for recent, acute injuries that tend to be cooling - or that are neutral in temperature but contain a lot of blood moving herbs. There are also a lot of specific jows for specific purposes, such as iron palm training jows etc.

The following link for Blue Poppy Press gives descriptions of specific jows for specific purposes:

http://www.bluepoppy.com/cfwebstorefb/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=20&CFID=630797&CFTOKEN=83983316

You may also want to check out Tom Bisio's book (see thread above) for a good general-purpose acute injury jow. There is also a very good jow for tendon injuries that typically get worse in cold, damp weather. Jows are easy to make and you'll save money in the long run if you use them a lot. At the very least, you'll also know exactly what's in your jow.

As a point of personal preference I don't like jows in plastic bottles as I'm always wary of the chemicals in the plastic leaching into the jow.

Best,

Steve Lamade

ShaolinGirl

11-25-2006, 01:29 AM

My husband and I have tried a few kinds and brands and right now we use two different kinds of dit da jow: one for regular bruises and the other for bruises deep enough to affect the bone and/or when tendons are involved. Both of them are from Plum Dragon Herbs at http://www.plumdragonherbs.com, a place which specializes in dit da jows. They're also have a new dit da jow specifically for sprains and such which might be pertinent to your case:
http://www.plumdragonherbs.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/24/products_id/89

If I apply the bruise dit da jow the same day I get the bruise, I can usually stop the bruise from ever appearing, that's how well it disperses the blood. The iron bone dit da jow speeds up the healing of bone bruises and tendons. I can feel the increased circulation after applying the stuff, but in a deeper, more subtle way than any camphor-based liniments. It also helps you avoid getting ugly hands after banging them up....

ZenGuy

11-26-2006, 01:57 PM

ive never really been convinced, were advided to apply di da every time we do wall bag training because it can stop bone problems when we get older.
Anyone think this is the case?

herb ox

11-26-2006, 03:17 PM

Well, you could do a search for dit da jow on the forums here and get a wide assortment of opinions and experiences from using DDJ. However, from personal experience, I've found most jows to be effective in reducing the time to heal a bruise and seems to also reduce the pain of injury as well as speed recovery. I've been using jow for years and now formulate my own. I've researched for years and now that I'm studying Acupuncture and herbs, what was once a surface level of understanding is now growing deeper as are my experiences with herbs and jow.

I gotta say, the stuff works. Some formulas work better than others... no doubt. But I've also used very simple formulas with great results (like, the basic 8 ingredients for moving blood and speeding healing) These formulae have been used and refined over the centuries... tried and true!

One thing I tend to shy away from is jow that costs a lot of money. It shouldn't. Herbs are cheap and so is the liquor used to make the preparation. The best jow I've used was relatively cheap (or free!).

peace

herb ox

herb ox

11-26-2006, 03:22 PM

Welcome the TCM forum, Shaolin Girl... I dig your avatar.

mantiskilla

11-27-2006, 11:23 AM

i broke my ankle and ruptured ligaments playing soccer 2 Octobers ago (sounded like a .22 going off). I went to the doctor, a sports doctor, and he wanted to look into surgery and said i would be casted for 12-16 weeks... I left and never went back. I went to my teacher who worked on it (almost puked) and gave me herbs to cook and apply for several hours a day along with using jow. I was walking within 5-6 weeks and doing kung fu by 8 weeks...he said if i had come to him sooner it would have healed faster ( i waited a week before i saw him). Took a full year for complete recovery...as in getting back the same explosive movement. I believe I would have had significant atrophy and loss of range of motion (or much time in rehab) had i followed the doctors advice...I know i would still be trying to get it back to 'normal' two years out. I kept the ankle moving pretty much within a day or two of the break and rupture.

Also took herbs to fix broken ribs when i was in China this year. If you have broken ribs you know how painful it is...cant even sleep at night. went to an herbal doc in HK and with in two visits the pain was completely gone. he cooked herbs for me to drink and after the second time within twenty minutes or so the pain got a little worse and then went away for good.

ZenGuy

11-28-2006, 06:57 AM

sounds good,
anybody recommend some cheap di ja available in the UK???
if not then a good supplier with cheap UK delivery.
would be much appreceated if youve had good sucess with some.

also what do u think of the theory thay the bruse damage goes into the bone, only to surface later in life as arthritis or a problem?

Three Harmonies

11-28-2006, 09:16 AM

I can ship anywhere in the world if need be. I carry Mike Biggie's recipe, which is pretty **** good IMO.

Cheers
Jake
three_harmonies@hotmail.com
www.threeharmonies.com

yu shan

11-28-2006, 11:05 AM

I can vouch for Jake, his recipe is the best I have used. And it is all my school uses. Sorry Jake, but I go straight to Mike now.

Three Harmonies

11-28-2006, 02:24 PM

No sorries needed mi amigo. The props belong to Mike, not me. I am glad to turn you onto his stuff, and I am happy that you and others are supporting Mike.

I tell you what, if the Pong Lai group uses it then it is good for anyone! I have never seen so many students, so willing to beat the living hell out of each others arms, legs, and bodies! The Pong Lai group (Yu Shan is part of that BTW) does more conditioning than anyone I have seen in that respect, so if they are using it you are **** sure it works and is good! Can't wait to come over and see all you guys sometime again Jim!! Say Hi to the crew for me!
Cheers
Jake :)

Kaylun

11-29-2006, 04:56 AM

sounds good,
anybody recommend some cheap di ja available in the UK???
if not then a good supplier with cheap UK delivery.
would be much appreceated if youve had good sucess with some.

also what do u think of the theory thay the bruse damage only to surface later in life as arthritis or a problem?

goes into the bone,

Try www.chinesehealtharts.co.uk good Dit Da pluse stuff for older injuries.

lhommedieu

11-29-2006, 03:12 PM

One thing I tend to shy away from is jow that costs a lot of money. It shouldn't. Herbs are cheap and so is the liquor used to make the preparation. The best jow I've used was relatively cheap (or free!).

herb ox

Agreed. I use the cheapest "American Whiskey" that I can find. I have a 6 gallon carboy that's going on five years now; when I start decanting it next year I'll have a lifetime supply of jow for use in my clinic for an original cost of about $125.

Best,

Steve Lamade

ShaolinGirl

11-30-2006, 09:40 AM

Welcome the TCM forum, Shaolin Girl... I dig your avatar.
Thank you! :-)

dougadam

11-30-2006, 12:37 PM

ZenGuy

12-03-2006, 09:21 AM

goes into the bone,

Try www.chinesehealtharts.co.uk good Dit Da pluse stuff for older injuries.

anybody have personal experience with this?
cheers, thank alot

TenTigers

12-04-2006, 11:20 PM

what herbs can you substitute for
ah-ping
bear claw
bear bile
deer musk

David Jamieson

12-05-2006, 06:25 AM

A Good Dit Da Jow Recipe

1 bottle of strong vodka, gin or Chinese rice wine
Artemesia (Liu ji nu) - 5g
Borneol (Bingpian) - 1g
Carthamus (Honghua) - 5g
Catechu (Ercha) - 8g
Cinnabar (Zhusha) - 5g
Cirsium (DaJi) - 1g
Dragon's Blood (Xuejie) - 30g
Mastic (Ruxiang) - 5g
Musk (Shexiang) - 1g
Myrrh (Moyao) - 5g
Pinellia (ShengBanXia) - 5g

lose the cinnabar and substitue it with 5g powdered arnica blossoms. (leopard bane / arnica monatana)

also, I wouldn't use the camphor either, it doesn't do anything except provide superficial heat and it's analgesic quality is low.

Asmo

12-08-2006, 05:22 AM

I wouldn't use the camphor either, it doesn't do anything except provide superficial heat and it's analgesic quality is low.

I believe that will open up the pores through which the other herbs can enter. Not all herbs are added for medicinal purposes, but also to get other herbs to get to the place needed for them to do their work.

Changing TCM herbal formulas requires solid knowledge, the interaction between herbs can go quite deep and requires quite a bit of study at a TCM university or similar IMHO.

herb ox

12-08-2006, 10:48 AM

I didn't see Camphor (Zhang Nao) in the formula - but I did see Bing Pian (Borneol) listed. These are two substances with opposite energetic qualities. Camphor is spicy, hot and toxic, whereas Borneol is spicy, bitter and cool. Either way, I'd leave it in there - borneol is cooling and likely balances the heat of the ban xia and helps to stop pain. Overall this formula is rather cool (energetically) - seems like it'd be more suited for acute, hot swollen injuries, rather than for treating old or chronic injuries.

peace

herb ox

Asmo

12-08-2006, 10:55 AM

I did not actually took a look at the formula at all (blush). Just wanted to make a comment on leaving out herbs in general.

Cheers for the extra info herbox :)

herb ox

12-08-2006, 12:05 PM

Asmo, you bring an interesting point to the table - many of the elder dit da formulas use obscure, illegal, or toxic ingredients - eg tiger bone, bear gall bladder, eagle claws (for your eagle claws :p ) etc... and need an appropriate substitute

Zu Sha, or Cinnabar is still used in very small amounts for its spirit-calming properties. It has mercury oxide in it, however, it is treated to reduce the toxic qualities. I'd most likely leave it out of my formula, as there are other herbs with qualities appropriate for subsitution. Another example is using Ding Xiang (cloves) to replace She Xiang (deer musk) as the musk deer is threatened by those who seek to profit from this rare substance.

I believe these substitutions bring the ancient art of herbal formulation into the new age - times change, the environment has changed, and so have we. As such, active research into finding suitable replacements for substances that are obsolete is certainly needed. Perhaps some of our forum members can provide us with their own research and experiences.

peace on earth

herb ox

Asmo

12-09-2006, 01:19 AM

Asmo, you bring an interesting point to the table - many of the elder dit da formulas use obscure, illegal, or toxic ingredients - eg tiger bone, bear gall bladder, eagle claws (for your eagle claws :p ) etc... and need an appropriate substitute

That post was actually made by David Jamieson. But I agree that for toxic herbs like Cinnabar or endangered species (or unethically obtained ingredients) you should use substitutes. But I personally wouldn't start to try and substitute (or leave them out) without having got some extensive university level study in TCM. Naturally, for some herbs there are known substitutes*.

Until then I'll stick to either patent medicines, or formulas I can use without such problems.

*) Which sometimes makes me frown so much on the use of the ingredient in the first place.. Like cats bone for tiger bone. They both have equal value? Or chicken claw instead of eagle claw. Like WTF? But I guess that valids a complete discussion on its own :)

lhommedieu

12-10-2006, 04:18 PM

what herbs can you substitute for
ah-ping
bear claw
bear bile
deer musk

I'm not sure what "ah-ping" is. Do you mean "Ai Pian?" i.e., Bing Pian?

For bear claw and bear bile: I'd heard that bear paw is used in some formulas and cuisine as a tonic herb so I would guess that you could substitute other tonic herbs if that's the purpose for which you wanted it;you can substitute cow gallbladder (Nui Dan) in larger doses for bear gallbladder, and I believe that there is a synthetic bile taken from cow gallbladder that can be used as well.

Re. She Xiang (Deer Musk) most people use a synthetic product called muskone (He Cheng She Xiang Tong); it is still rather expensive and hard to find - but not illegal as far as I know.

Best,

Steve Lamade

TenTigers

12-10-2006, 11:28 PM

Thanx, Steve.We met at Tom's seminar-I was the one who did the plum blossom needling for your headache. ah-pien is opium. I suppose I couldn't substitute Robbitussen?:p
I went hunting last week, almost brought back enough bear for all of us. Better luck next time.

lhommedieu

12-11-2006, 03:28 PM

Rik,

Looking forward to the Suigetsu camp. I was going to suggest (but didn't because you asked for substitutes) that harvesting bear through hunting is an ethical alternative to the illegal products that almost always come from intensive bear farms in the PRC. The problem, in addition to the fact that the bears are treated badly, is that their life-span in captivity is significantly shorter in these farms than in the wild - so wild bears are still poached but kept alive to be sent to the farms, where the bile is harvested through tubes inserted into their gallbladders. Altogether it's a horrible practice and it doesn't prevent the destruction of the wild bear population due to the money to be made supplying the farms.

Hunting for bear, on the other hand, is I think ethical insofar as it fulfills one of the true reasons for hunting: to supply meat for the table, fur, (and in this case, an herbal medicine) - so long as the wild bear population can easily sustain hunting pressure. I don't have a lot of experience hunting, but it's something I'd like to take up in the near future, as my dad hunted for deer, grouse, and pheasant all his life. Tom has a student who's an avid hunter and I've heard that he has gone bear hunting in upstate New York. I was thinking of contacting him and will let you know his thoughts on the efficacy of harvesting bear gallbladder if you would like. One would need to know, for example, how to keep the gallbladder fresh during transit and how to prepare it for use as an herbal medicine.

Best,

Steve Lamade

Gongli

12-14-2006, 08:27 PM

lhommedieu

12-15-2006, 04:11 AM

Herbal substitutes

The most common substitute for bear paw is deer tendon, the substitute for bear gall is gold thread-coptis rhizoma,-huang lien, but I like to use the common western herb goldenseal because it has the same energy and properties. tigerbone is Homalonemae occulta. but you guys probably know this already.

I hadn't known that deer tendon can be used as a substitute for bear paw. Whenever I have a muscle tear however I like to eat Vietnamese Pho (soup) with beef tendon - so would deer tendon share similar properties? Huang Lian as a plant herbal substutute for Bear Gall Bladder makes sense as both are Cold and Bitter and share a similar range of actions and indications, (in particular eye and topical inflamation); There is a musk and bear bile patent that is used for chronic cold and damp conditions, however, and I am wondering if one could substitute Huang Lian for the bear bile in this formula? Re. Homalonemae occulta (Quan Nian Jian) it is right there next to Hu Gu in my Bensky and Gamble. It is bitter rather than sweet but can be used for the same range of symptoms. Thank you for the reference.

Best,

Steve

TenTigers

12-15-2006, 11:22 AM

all kidding aside, what can be substituted for opium? I am not about to score dope in the park, and certainly wouldn't want people saying my jow is a controlled substance.

PlumDragon

12-15-2006, 12:26 PM

lhommedieu

12-15-2006, 03:18 PM

TenTigers,
Not sure if this is a suitable substitution for your uses or not, but Yan Hu Suo (Corydalis Rhizome) is in the poppy family and shares a taxonomic similarty with opium at the genus level.

Not surprisingly, Yan Hu Suo is an important pain releiver and blood invigorator. If this is a good substitution for your uses, it is cheap and easy to get.

Yan Hu Suo also combines well with other herbs to treat specific parts of the body. For example, you can combine it with Chuan Lian Zi to treat rib fracture.

Best,

Steve Lamade

TenTigers

12-15-2006, 03:51 PM

can you post the chinese characters?

lhommedieu

12-16-2006, 03:43 PM

can you post the chinese characters?

For Yan Hu Suo:

TenTigers

12-16-2006, 09:54 PM

thanx!:) :)

lhommedieu

12-17-2006, 03:44 PM

Sure, no problem. I noticed that the Suigetsu Dojo (http://www.shopsuigetsu.com/Alternative_Healthcare_s/47.htm) in Greenlawn, NY has a pretty good selection of herbal products. Of note are the Dit Da Jow, Tendon Lotion, Tendon Soak, and Bone Knitting formulas. The "UI" oil is also helpful for stiff, overexerted muscles that cramp up in cold, damp weather. Worth a look at.

Best,

Steve

lhommedieu

01-09-2007, 08:21 PM

Just a follow-up on muskone. I noticed that Kamwo Pharmacy in NYC's Chinatown (Grand Street) uses it (synthetic musk) in one of Tom Bisio and Frank Butler's formulas:

http://www.kamwo.com/Public/zhenggutuina.php

Other substitutes for bear gallbladder:

zhu dan (pig gallbladder) plus huang lian
niu dan (cow gallbladder) plus huang lian

Best,

Steve