Sun Tai Chi

[unclaimed effort]

Are there any thoughts from anybody about the Sun style? What's it like? How's it different from the others?

I don't hear much about it, maybe there is a site you could lead me to that can help me learn about it?

When you win a fight, who do you think feels worse, you or your opponent?

[GLW]

Nice...but very different....

Where to start...ask away and I will try to share what I can.

[Subitai]

If you like, you could visit Sifu Lams school in Sunnyvale, CA. About 50 min ride for you, I think.

www.wle.com (http://www.wle.com)

Take a private or just go ask questions.

"Brilliant general"! "When the dirty ******* finds out, he'll return with his men--then we kill the all of them..." www.kwoon.tv (http://www.kwoon.tv)

[unclaimed effort]

Well basically, the way of fighting... i guess in a way. Like how Chen is more explosive, lower stances, Yang is more linear, and based a lot on holding the ball.

It's not the alphabet that will write your essay, but the applied letters that do. If you aren't satisfied then proofread until it is better.

Ex: It's not the forms that will win your fight, but the applied techniques that do. If you don't like them then change them until you do.

[unclaimed effort]

Don't mind the bottom I was trying a new signature out.

[GLW]

UcE,

well it all boils down to the stepping used. Sun Style employs the follow step seen in Xing Yi. It is much more mobile and quick than other styles of Taijiquan.

For example, Chen has power but it is reeling in nature and then explosive. Sun redirects then quickly comes in to strike.

If the stepping is not quick and sure...and coordinated with the hands, Sun style will never work.

The tempo of the form alludes to this. It has a broken rythm but not the obvious breaks you find in Chen.

There are many postures that really have limited martial use...like the signature Kai He (open close) but then the brush knee engages the opponent and then moves to redirect and strike...a totally different rythm than other styles.

Then, just when you are into the linearity of it all, you can switch and use some of the swimming steps and techniques that came from Bagua...OR in the need for splitting or chopping power, there are those elements from Xing Yi.

Even the neutralizing methods of Sun depend heavily upon the stepping. For example, the roll back from Sun uses a step back then a follow step forward to press.... So you would never absorb without moving and never move without attaching and following back in to the opponent.

[unclaimed effort]

Thanks GLW, that helped me understand Sun style better.

[Braden]

GLW - that's great, thanks! I've been looking for info on Sun Taiji for ages now, but it's not particularly common. Can you recommend any videos/VCDs, or even better, good instructors in Canada?

Do you know any Sun style specific foundational exercises or drills? I assume they practice push hands - an emphasis on moving step?

Thanks again.

[GLW]

I haven't seen a really good book or video...or even VCD on Sun style.

I have one or two (books, video, and VCD) for reference but if I had not learned it already, they would only produce a person with no understanding.

In many, the postures are hunched over and not lively enough. The connection or understanding of the meaning of the move is not there.

Then you have one camp who hate the Competition routine and others who don't. Having touched both, I can say that while the routines are in a different order, the only real difference between the two is that the competition routine has a higher level of difficulty by adding the juming kick... some say this is not traditional but since when do traditional arts not have the ability to take a jump that all have and a kick that all have and combine them into one move?

As for Canada...possibly Helen Wu in Toronto....I know she does Chen and Yang well...and maybe Wu and she ma know Sun....but everything she does is excellent...

[Subitai]

As I can say that I've felt Sun Jian Yuns skill personally. I can also comment on her feelings of the competition routine.

As I remember, a female wushu champion demostrated her version of SUN to her. She was not impressed. She did not authorize that version.
Upon testing the champions skills and touching hands with her she said it was not correct.

Also, I agree with almost everything that GLW said. Except one little thing when he ended with this:
"So you would never absorb without moving and never move without attaching and following back in to the opponent."

"NEVER" is too constricting, pending on your skill level and the energy given to you by your opponent, you can never say "never". That is to all MA.

Also, their is NO broken rythm to the form. NONE, that would be contrary to SUNS idealogy when creating the form. He was in his later years, i.e. fighting days long since over when he created this form. I would argue that, one of his aims was too create a form that MORE closely followed the TC principles. For example, you will not find a 50/50 heavy stance in the set. Always Yin/Yang, one foot alive and one more empty than the other and switching.


I am not claiming mastery of this style myself, but my sifu is authorized to be the US Sun Style Reseach Institute by Si-Gung herself. So i am relating things that were translated to me/us.

GLW, is also correct when he refferences bagua and Xing Yi. W/O understanding in these as well, you cannot hope to master SUN TC. Albeit, though SUNs Bagua and Xing Yi can be different to other styles too.

"O"

"Brilliant general"! "When the dirty ******* finds out, he'll return with his men--then we kill the all of them..." www.kwoon.tv (http://www.kwoon.tv)

[Sam Wiley]

Are there no videos at least of Sun Jian Yun performing her father's form? I have Sun's book on Xingyi, and she seemed very open and willing to share when commenting on him and his style of Xingyi. Surely, there must be at least a demo with her on it.

*********
"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

[GLW]

There is a VCD of Sun Jianyun doing the routine. Due to age, here postures are not what her father's were. The widow's hump that many women get as they age is quite apparent in her. The problem is that the stoop that is a physical problem for her is evident in her senior student who demonstrates in the video with her. (seen this before where the student copies the older teacher too closely and does not know where age or experience has changed the technique)

As for anyone who merely learned the routine, OF COURSE they would not have it....how surprising. You train only form and do tons of them and you don't get the real essence of the style and you can't use it. The video on one routine from China has one of the team members doing it...there are noticeable problems with it but you now see many people in the US copying that way of doing things because "It was on the video and that MUST be the way to do it"

By NEVER I may have overstated...in Taijiquan, the extremes such as NEVER and ALWAYS are rare. Also, all rules get broken from time to time. I was speaking in general principles.

The stepping indicates that the issuing and absorption of power are intimately connected with the legs and steps and work through the waist...no big surprise there since that sort of applies to most Taijiquan...but it is put up front in the form.

As for the rythm...it is NOT the same as Yang style (Yang Chengfu routine) which I would consdier unbroken and steady. There are really no breaks in any Taijiquan routine I have seen...but there are changes in rythm. My first year of Sun practice came after many years of Yang...It did not feel right because I tried to apply the same cadence to Sun. As soon as I realized that the spirit and cadence was different, I began to understand the ideas it held.

It appears to me that much of this cadence comes from Bagua with a littel Xing Yi thrown in and then softened by Wu/Hao style....

[unclaimed effort]

To my understandings, isn't David Lin one of the higher authorities on the Sun style?

[Subitai]

Very well said GLW.

You obviously see beyond the exterior.

"Brilliant general"! "When the dirty ******* finds out, he'll return with his men--then we kill the all of them..." www.kwoon.tv (http://www.kwoon.tv)