Traditional Chinese Weights

[The Xia]

An obvious compliment to Kung Fu. Has anyone tried them?

[franco1688]

In my style we use weight vest training. We also do an eagle claw exercise where we hold a brick in each hand and perform certain movements in the training for twenty minutes along with releasing and catching the bricks 100x each arm. In another weighted training we utilize concrete posts that we do various movements with and these range in weight from 50-100 lbs. or so. The final traditional training we do is a tiger training called he twenty-four tigers exercise. In this exercise we hold weighted vessels and perform twenty-four different movements for twenty-four repetitions non-stop. That's a total of 576 repetitions so as you can imagine it's pretty intense.

[SevenStar]

shuai chiao uses pulleys with weights to simulate throws. Also there is a device called the rock pole.

As franco stated, there is the brick training, and also carrying weighted vases.

When I was training kung fu, we used a weight vest as well. Western boxing does also.

[GeneChing]

I'm guessing Xia is refering to my latest article in the 2006 November/December (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=680) issue: Increase Your Grip Power with Homemade Stone Locks: Grandmaster Tu's Chamber of 99 Power

Worthy of note, Gigi and I also did an article on Shuai Chiao training tools back in our 2006 January/February issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=632): Master Charng’s Shuai Chiao Training Methods.

[auntie]

We use wooden versions of those in varying weights. And an enterprising club member came up with a metal grip welded onto a screw thread so that you can attach different weights as you get stronger. We are encouraged to aim to be able to do pow chois with at least 15% (20% for men) body weight using those.

[franco1688]

what is a pow choi?

[The Xia]

what is a pow choi?
"Cannon Punch". It's a Longfist style. Although it is a style in of itself, it's also found in other systems.

I'm guessing Xia is refering to my latest article in the 2006 November/December issue: Increase Your Grip Power with Homemade Stone Locks: Grandmaster Tu's Chamber of 99 Power

Worthy of note, Gigi and I also did an article on Shuai Chiao training tools back in our 2006 January/February issue: Master Charng’s Shuai Chiao Training Methods.
You are sort of correct. Actually, I do remember reading things about Shuai Chiao weights in the magazine. However, I didn't see the latest article. I'll make a note of giving it a look. It should also be interesting to see an article focusing on Grandmaster Tu that doesn't revolve around his crotch. :D
Subconsciously, that Shuai Chiao article may have influenced my creating this thread (since it's one of the first things I remember reading about Chinese weights). Ok, I'll be really nice. Does martialartsmart sell Chinese weights? ;)

[SevenStar]

It should also be interesting to see an article focusing on Grandmaster Tu that doesn't revolve around his crotch. :D



Why? My whole life revolves around mine...

There was an article by him a few months ago that was not crotch related. It was about ancient chinese training devices.

[The Xia]

There was an article by him a few months ago that was not crotch related. It was about ancient chinese training devices.
I remember that one. I find both Iron Crotch and non-Iron Crotch articles on GM Tu interesting.

[franco1688]

I used to be known for my iron crotch but then I got married.

[mooyingmantis]

I don't see the point of "traditional Chinese weights" when I can go to ****'s Sporting Goods and buy modern weights that work just fine.
Maybe weighted jars and stone locks were great for poor Chinese folk who could not afford or did not have access to modern conveniences. Come to think of it they may not have had a Ming's Sporting Goods back in the old days. However, modern equipment is far superior ergonomically and practically, IMHO.
Weighted vests, I will agree, are great training devices.

[rubthebuddha]

moo ying -- you're right. as we discuss on here pretty much constantly, weight is weight. a 10-lb stone lock is just as heavy as a 10-lb plate. your muscles don't know the difference. all they know is someone's making them work, so they need to respond in kind.

however, basic weight work won't give you the same sweet callouses that a good stone lock will. :)

[Toby]

however, basic weight work won't give you the same sweet callouses that a good stone lock will. :)I've heard you've got a particularly calloused right hand palm. How did you get those callouses - from weight training?

[franco1688]

I lift weights 3-4 times a week and I won't disagree that modern weight lifting is superior in some aspects and for the most part a weight is just a weight. But, traditional chinese style weight training does have it's place. It's not so much what the weight looks like that matters, it's what you do with it that differentiates modren lifting from traditional chinese methods. In my experience with chinese weight training, the movements generally incorporate the whole body and not just one muscle group and some help develope hand/ eye coordination. As I said I lift weights and I've been doing so for about 15 years, but I feel that the traditional methods translate better into fighting than modern methods. Sure, nowdays to be a succesful fighter you almost have to lift weights to remain competitive but it's the other things that you do (that no one else does) that gives you an edge. So to sum it all up, I guess all I'm saying is that both have their place in a martial artists arsenal and that they are the same in some respect but different in others.

[The Xia]

Increase Your Grip Power with Homemade Stone Locks: Grandmaster Tu's Chamber of 99 Power
I just read this article. It is awesome. It explains the benefits of stonelock weight training. The weight of a stonelock is concentrated on the bottom instead of being distributed on both sides like dumbells have. There are exercises you can do with stonelocks that will greatly increase your grip strength to levels that you can't reach with dumbbells.

[BentMonk]

Stone locks bear a strong resemblance to kettlebell training. Both use the whole body in nearly every exercise. IMO this is better than traditional weight training, which tends to isolate muscle groups. For MA purposes it just makes more sense to train your entire body as a unit as often as possible, since the strongest strike is delivered by using your entire body. Now...a shameless plug for my teacher's site: www.iron-body.com :D Back to our show...

[The Xia]

It's interesting that you bring up kettlebells BentMonk. They are making a comeback in a big way.

[BentMonk]

I know. My teacher has been RKC for almost 4 years. I've had the honor and good fortune to have hung out with Pavel, Mike Mahler, and the guys from Dragon Door at the 2004 Arnold. I've taken an excellent MA seminar from Steve Cotter. I've been training with KBs for 3 years solid, and have made tremendous gains in over all strength. They definitely work.

[GeneChing]

It's a really small market and they are a pain to ship. We have enough headaches trying to ship wooden dummies (http://www.martialartsmart.net/2051.html) and lions (http://www.martialartsmart.net/lions.html). Maybe someday, when the market is big enough.

Glad you liked that article Xia. And I do try to balance GM Tu's reports, half crotch, half other stuff. Since the last one was other stuff, the next one will be more crotch. Come on now, don't tell me you don't read it. My god - if you search my name on the web, half of the links are to crotch stuff. Such is my internet legacy. How do you think I feel about that? It's what my readership demands of me now. :rolleyes:

[FuXnDajenariht]

lmao thats harsh :D

[GeneChing]

...although I prefer 'Iron Crotch Pimp' personally. ;)

[BentMonk]

...although I prefer 'Iron Crotch Pimp' personally. ;)

I suppose the ninjettes best have yo nachos! :D

[Mr Punch]

I don't see the point of "traditional Chinese weights" when I can go to ****'s Sporting Goods and buy modern weights that work just fine.
Maybe weighted jars and stone locks were great for poor Chinese folk who could not afford or did not have access to modern conveniences. Come to think of it they may not have had a Ming's Sporting Goods back in the old days. However, modern equipment is far superior ergonomically and practically, IMHO.
Weighted vests, I will agree, are great training devices.I've just been trying some exercises with a wing chun pole which I'm not physically strong enough to do yet, and that's given that I do weights and the pole weighs a measly 1.8 kg or so.

I don't know any modern weights exercises which would replicate this training (martially specific) movement, since I suspect part of the difficulty is that the stick is 270 cm long.

In general I agree though.

[The Xia]

I don't see the point of "traditional Chinese weights" when I can go to ****'s Sporting Goods and buy modern weights that work just fine.
Maybe weighted jars and stone locks were great for poor Chinese folk who could not afford or did not have access to modern conveniences. Come to think of it they may not have had a Ming's Sporting Goods back in the old days. However, modern equipment is far superior ergonomically and practically, IMHO.
Weighted vests, I will agree, are great training devices.
In general I agree though.
You two should read Gene's article. It does a great job of explaining the benefits of stonelocks.

[GeneChing]

It's all about leverage. Dumbbells are great for bicep work, but stone locks are better for grip work. It's good to have big guns, but it's better to have a strong grip, at least for the martial arts.

As for my iron crotch pimphood, just you wait. Something's coming on that front very soon. Nothing on the nacho ninjette front, sad to say, but it's top of my 'to do' list, believe me. ;)

[Mr Punch]

You two should read Gene's article. It does a great job of explaining the benefits of stonelocks.Nah, I should have read Mooying's post better...! I was agreeing just to the idea that a weight is a weight and that modern weights are the same as old weights, not arguing the pros and cons of each... I'm quite sure the balance and distribution of the weight is important, hence my point about the pole.

:)

[dougadam]

Could you post a link to some images of these?

[jmd161]

We use stone locks in Hak Fu Mun, but they're used for many reasons. One of the more intense workouts we use them for is arm conditioning. When you hold one in your grip and throw a punch, the concrete bangs against your forearms, so you get some serious arm conditioning from this.



jeff:)

[SevenStar]

Stone locks bear a strong resemblance to kettlebell training. Both use the whole body in nearly every exercise. IMO this is better than traditional weight training, which tends to isolate muscle groups. For MA purposes it just makes more sense to train your entire body as a unit as often as possible, since the strongest strike is delivered by using your entire body. Now...a shameless plug for my teacher's site: www.iron-body.com :D Back to our show...

hold on.... that is false. traditional strength training is NOT about isolation. The bodybuilding regimens are about isolation. Traditional strength training has always been about compound motions. Heck, kettlebells ain't new, nor are the training methods.

[BentMonk]

I was talking about bodybuilding exercise techniques when I said "traditional". Sorry for the confusion. I know kettlebells aren't new. They are effective though.