Should Shaolin-Do have its' own Forum?

[ingchao]

With all the "debates" about Shaolin-Do being spread across forums maybe it should have its' own forum.

"Discuss"- Mike Myers on SNL as the Coffee Tawk lady


Oh yeah- maybe I missed it but what does Knifefighter think of SD? :D

[B-Rad]

Cool, you can vote for more than one option :p

[Green Cloud]

eeeekkk:eek:

[charyuop]

True....I voted all 3 together LMAO!!!!!!!

[WanderingMonk]

of course, they should have their own forum ON THEIR OWN SERVER, PAID FOR BY THEIR OWN REVENUE STREAM.

it is a free country.

[bodhitree]

WTF?

Moderator, get in here.

[BoulderDawg]

Why shouldn't one of the most popular forms of Shaolin in the United States have it's own forum?

At the very least it will give all those people eat up with jealousy a place to dis us!:o

[Flying-Monkey]

Why shouldn't one of the most popular forms of Shaolin in the United States have it's own forum?

At the very least it will give all those people eat up with jealousy a place to dis us!:o

It is not Shaolin. No one is jealous

[BoulderDawg]

It is very much Shaolin. Do you want the link to the web site?

In any case, who are you to judge whether it is or not?:D I don't recall asking anyone about the validity of our art.

If you're not jealous then why post on this thread?

[Flying-Monkey]

It is very much Shaolin. Do you want the link to the web site?

In any case, who are you to judge whether it is or not?:D I don't recall asking anyone about the validity of our art.

If you're not jealous then why post on this thread?

My long experience in CMA and the opinion of other sifu help me judge and see that i wouldn't really classify SD as kung fu let alone Shaolin.

Yes, I would like the website.

I don't need you permission to state my feelings on this forum.

I am tired of read about SD being shaolin when it is easy to see that it isn't

[Royal Dragon]

Shaolin Do is as Much Shaolin, as a Rock is water....

[BoulderDawg]

www.shao-lin.com

Your opinion doesn't really mean squat.

As far as your experience and knowledge: You're just another name on this board with no way (other than your say so) of your credentials.

In any case: The thread was clearly labeled Shao-lin Do. If you're tired of reading about it then why did you open and read it?

[Flying-Monkey]

www.shao-lin.com

Your opinion doesn't really mean squat.

As far as your experience and knowledge: You're just another name on this board with no way (other than your say so) of your credentials.

In any case: The thread was clearly labeled Shao-lin Do. If you're tired of reading about it then why did you open and read it?

I am an instructor of kung fu. My opinion should mean something to you. Are you taught in SD to disregard other teacher's opinions if they don't fit into SD lore?

If you like, we can get into contact with Sigung Chan Sau Chung and Sifu Chan Kai Leung to check my credentials.

I am tired of reading about their claims. I am not tired of reading about them.

[Flying-Monkey]

[QUOTE=BoulderDawg;708221]www.shao-lin.com

QUOTE]

What proof am I looking for on this site?

[BoulderDawg]

I am an instructor of kung fu. My opinion should mean something to you. Are you taught in SD to disregard other teacher's opinions if they don't fit into SD lore?

A little big on the ego, eh? You're just another name on a BB and that means nothing.....and I would say you probably have no training in SD.

As far as the importance of your opinion: That's for others to judge. As far as myself goes, I would never suggest to anybody that I was some sort of great sage or teacher and that my opinion carried some sort of great importance.

As mentioned if you're tired of reading our claims then simply stop. I don't do something that I hate doing.

Also, if you are a teacher, why should you be concerned with another style of our art? I train with my master and teachers....whatever others do it is not my place to judge.

Also, this thread is about whether or not there should be a SD forum. There is another thread for people who don't train and practice our style of Shaolin to put it down.

[Flying-Monkey]

A little big on the ego, eh? You're just another name on a BB and that means nothing.....and I would say you probably have no training in SD.

As far as the importance of your opinion: That's for others to judge. As far as myself goes, I would never suggest to anybody that I was some sort of great sage or teacher and that my opinion carried some sort of great importance.

As mentioned if you're tired of reading our claims then simply stop. I don't do something that I hate doing.

Also, if you are a teacher, why should you be concerned with another style of our art? I train with my master and teachers....whatever others do it is not my place to judge.

Also, this thread is about whether or not there should be a SD forum. There is another thread for people who don't train and practice our style of Shaolin to put it down.

What ego are you talking about? Is it he fact that I write that I am a teacher? Is it the fact that I write that I have experience?

I never said that I was a great sage. I am a kung fu teacher. My judgment of what I feel is kung fu or not does hold weight.

I am concerned with kung fu. If someone claims they are doing kung fu, and I feel that it isn't, I will will express my feelings.

How am I putting it down? I am just telling a cat that it isn't a dog. How is that bad?

[tattooedmonk]

What ego are you talking about? Is it he fact that I write that I am a teacher? Is it the fact that I write that I have experience?

I never said that I was a great sage. I am a kung fu teacher. My judgment of what I feel is kung fu or not does hold weight.

I am concerned with kung fu. If someone claims they are doing kung fu, and I feel that it isn't, I will will express my feelings.

How am I putting it down? I am just telling a cat that it isn't a dog. How is that bad?...in your opinion.....why is it not shaolin? why is it not kung fu?? why is it not traditional ? why is it not chinese ? are you chinese?

[Flying-Monkey]

A little big on the ego, eh? You're just another name on a BB and that means nothing.....and I would say you probably have no training in SD.

As far as the importance of your opinion: That's for others to judge. As far as myself goes, I would never suggest to anybody that I was some sort of great sage or teacher and that my opinion carried some sort of great importance.

As mentioned if you're tired of reading our claims then simply stop. I don't do something that I hate doing.

Also, if you are a teacher, why should you be concerned with another style of our art? I train with my master and teachers....whatever others do it is not my place to judge.

Also, this thread is about whether or not there should be a SD forum. There is another thread for people who don't train and practice our style of Shaolin to put it down.

...in your opinion.....why is it not shaolin? why is it not kung fu?? why is it not traditional ? why is it not chinese ? are you chinese?

I will post my reple on the main shaolindo thread in the shaolin section.

[Green Cloud]

From a traditionalist point of view, Shaolin Do is not a traditional Kung Fu system.

Can you call Shaolin Do a CMA system sure. Even Japanese Karate Systems clame to be decendants from Shaolin.

Every Kempo school in Americal claims to be Shaolin, case is point Shaolin Studios.

The fact is altough they can call them selves eclectic CMA, they are not traditional Kung Fu and that's that !!!!

No matter what style of Kung Fu you see there is a certain charecteristics in the forms that tell an expert wether it's real or memorex.

It is my professional opinion that Shaolin Do is not a traditional Kung Fu system. After checking out some videos it loosely resembles Indonesian type of MA mixed in with Karate and Jiu jitsu.

As far as the history of SD what can I say nothing realy checks out.

greencloud.net

[Kristoffer]

of cors there should b a forum for SD. name it ''comedy section''

[GeneChing]

Contemporary wushu would get a forum here before Shaolin-Do, and neither is going to happen anytime soon (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42889).

[tattooedmonk]

From a traditionalist point of view, Shaolin Do is not a traditional Kung Fu system.

Can you call Shaolin Do a CMA system sure. Even Japanese Karate Systems clame to be decendants from Shaolin.

Every Kempo school in Americal claims to be Shaolin, case is point Shaolin Studios.

The fact is altough they can call them selves eclectic CMA, they are not traditional Kung Fu and that's that !!!!

No matter what style of Kung Fu you see there is a certain charecteristics in the forms that tell an expert wether it's real or memorex.

It is my professional opinion that Shaolin Do is not a traditional Kung Fu system. After checking out some videos it loosely resembles Indonesian type of MA mixed in with Karate and Jiu jitsu.

As far as the history of SD what can I say nothing realy checks out.

greencloud.netwhat is a traditional shaolin system then??

what part of what you have seen indicates that the forms are not chineses in origin??

..if bung bo from one system is presented and the same exact form is presented by Shaolin Do and they have the same moves, and similar applications ..how is it that Shaolin Do is not just as authentic as any other system that does this form???

and another thing ...if you teach real kung fu how is it that you are also teaching a variety of other martialarts as well...and yet still calling it kung fu??

[IronWeasel]

Shaolin Do should have it's own forum...the title should be 'Karate'

[lunghushan]

I think Shaolin-Do should be kept off this forum because it's obviously not a legitimate Shaolin martial arts style and it detracts from having discussions about real Shaolin.

[Green Cloud]

I guess they got their own forum:confused:

[sunfist]

Contemporary wushu would get a forum here before Shaolin-Do, and neither is going to happen anytime soon (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42889).

Would making them share one be so wrong? :D

[Radhnoti]

I'd love to see shaolin-do in the Other related arts forum, as kuntao. The constant work you'd have to put in sending new questions about it from the shaolin forum might make it counterproductive for the moderators though.
Obviously, "real" is somewhat subjective and perspective based with the topic of shaolin...

[tattooedmonk]

I think Shaolin-Do should be kept off this forum because it's obviously not a legitimate Shaolin martial arts style and it detracts from having discussions about real Shaolin.prove it then!!!

[tattooedmonk]

what is a traditional shaolin system then??

what part of what you have seen indicates that the forms are not chineses in origin??

..if bung bo from one system is presented and the same exact form is presented by Shaolin Do and they have the same moves, and similar applications ..how is it that Shaolin Do is not just as authentic as any other system that does this form???

and another thing ...if you teach real kung fu how is it that you are also teaching a variety of other martialarts as well...and yet still calling it kung fu??want to answer this??

[tattooedmonk]

Would making them share one be so wrong? :D Yes it would!!

[sunfist]

Yes it would!!

remember when i said you were only slightly flaky?





























I lied ;)

[tattooedmonk]

remember when I said you were only slightly flaky?





























I lied ;)Hey thanx....come from you I will take this as a compliment!!! if I was going to be a little flakey , or even a lot,I would be a corn flake......... or a frosted flake ...the're great!!!

[GeneChing]

Ohh, that's bad. ;)

Please contain any SD debates to the SD thread on the Shaolin forum (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=708912#post708912). Also note that I'm banning people there indiscriminatly, so you take your chances posting there.

[golden arhat]

is shaolin do is it some weird american martial arts fad along the lines of napoleon dynamite lol luved that movie
BOW TO UR SENSEI!!!
grab my arm no my other arm

[Green Cloud]

what is a traditional shaolin system then??

what part of what you have seen indicates that the forms are not chineses in origin??

..if bung bo from one system is presented and the same exact form is presented by Shaolin Do and they have the same moves, and similar applications ..how is it that Shaolin Do is not just as authentic as any other system that does this form???

and another thing ...if you teach real kung fu how is it that you are also teaching a variety of other martialarts as well...and yet still calling it kung fu??

Ok here we go, The Bung Bo form is a 7 star preing mantis form not a shaolin do form. That's the problem with you guys are claiming if you have the Bung Bo form in your curiculum cool but it's still 7* not Shaolin Do. That's like me teaching a preing mantis form in my Choy lee fut school anmd calling it Choy lee Fut.

[golden arhat]

would someone pleaser tell me what shaolin do is ?

[tattooedmonk]

Ok here we go, The Bung Bo form is a 7 star preing mantis form not a shaolin do form. That's the problem with you guys are claiming if you have the Bung Bo form in your curiculum cool but it's still 7* not Shaolin Do. That's like me teaching a preing mantis form in my Choy lee fut school anmd calling it Choy lee Fut.Shaolin Do teaches all the main branches of mantis....plum...7* ...yin yang...and so on..

[golden arhat]

now im ****ed i'm gonna start knockin heads
1 tell me what shaolin do
2 if something ive never heard of gets its own forum
i think wushu should at least
and yes gene i know the reasons why there isnt one

inform me people what the hell is shaolin do ?

[GeneChing]

If you want to know Shaolin Do, just go to the thread (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32782). No need to start threatening us. Don't be silly. And please take any discussion of Shaolin Do's validity or whatever over there. I'm tempted to lock this thread if there's nothing more concerning the topic.

[Green Cloud]

Shaolin Do teaches all the main branches of mantis....plum...7* ...yin yang...and so on..

Could you expand on that, Plum what ??? Ying Yang ??? and so on.

Teaches all the branches, You mean like Seven Star, Southern Mantis, Wa lum or tai chi mantis.

Those are all huge systems, so you mean Shaolin Do has all that in it and more ??:rolleyes:

So I guess youre doing preying mantis not Shaolin Do since all these systems have their own lineage and I can say for a afct that none of these styles are in any way connected to SD.

In fact SD claims to do authentic Shaolin and Preying mantis is authentic Kung Fu but not one of the systems coming out Shaolin it was created afterwards, just like monkey style.

I think that SD may borrow some of these systems just like Kempo schools do. This happens all the time and there is nothing wrong with doing this as long as it's taught by a Qualified Sifu.

But to say to that these forms are SD is misleading and inaccurate. I know some people will say hey we have our own Bong Bo form in SD, that's just absurd. These are forms from specific styles.

[tattooedmonk]

Could you expand on that, Plum what ??? Ying Yang ??? and so on.

Teaches all the branches, You mean like Seven Star, Southern Mantis, Wa lum or tai chi mantis.

Those are all huge systems, so you mean Shaolin Do has all that in it and more ??:rolleyes:

So I guess youre doing preying mantis not Shaolin Do since all these systems have their own lineage and I can say for a afct that none of these styles are in any way connected to SD.

In fact SD claims to do authentic Shaolin and Preying mantis is authentic Kung Fu but not one of the systems coming out Shaolin it was created afterwards, just like monkey style.

I think that SD may borrow some of these systems just like Kempo schools do. This happens all the time and there is nothing wrong with doing this as long as it's taught by a Qualified Sifu.

But to say to that these forms are SD is misleading and inaccurate. I know some people will say hey we have our own Bong Bo form in SD, that's just absurd. These are forms from specific styles. Shaolin Do is a system preying mantis is a sub system/ style...

there is obviously some connection between them ..how else could they be taught in one school if there was not??

there are mantis systems that have connections and some that do not....big deal...

they are based on the same philosophical , psychological as well as physical principles..

Shaolin originally was not a martial arts school ..it was a Buddhist school which taught Shuai Jiao as it's first martial art

you know I was taught many mantis forms in SD....one being white ape steals the peach ..it was taught very indepth with application and pressure point strikes

..I have seen this from done by many non Shaolin Do students and it looks alot more flashier but lacks the power needed to make it effective in a self defense/ fight situation...

all these other schools forms look prettier than ours..but far less applicable for real world usage... this is the most important part..

[Green Cloud]

Shaolin Do is a system preying mantis is a sub system/ style...

there is obviously some connection between them ..how else could they be taught in one school if there was not??

there are mantis systems that have connections and some that do not....big deal...

they are based on the same philosophical , psychological as well as physical principles..

Shaolin originally was not a martial arts school ..it was a Buddhist school which taught Shuai Jiao as it's first martial art

you know I was taught many mantis forms in SD....one being white ape steals the peach ..it was taught very indepth with application and pressure point strikes

..I have seen this from done by many non Shaolin Do students and it looks alot more flashier but lacks the power needed to make it effective in a self defense/ fight situation...

all these other schools forms look prettier than ours..but far less applicable for real world usage... this is the most important part..



We are talking about traditional styles that come out of the Shaolin Monestary that SD claims to be a part of.

When you are refering to traditional styles of preying mantis and you make statement that SD does all the Styles, youre making a pretty bold statement.

In order to do this you have to be able to trace a distinct lineage to each style you mentioned. Lineage charts (that can be proven) create checks and balances so that the prospective student is able to discern wether or not a style is real or a replica.

Just like an antique dealer know what to look for when looking for real art, an expert in kung fu can tell whether it's a real traditional system or something that was slapped together by a jack of all trades and master of none.

In the earlier post you mentioned that the Bong Bo set is part of SD. That's a pefect example because when it comes to that form it's distinctly a 7 star form. My sifu Chan Tai San was married to Jew lun's (GC of 7 * PM) and after asking
some of his student's guess what no one ever herd of SD or master Sin

You see the only whay for someone to know that style is to have trained with someone who can trace their lineage back to them.

I asked Sifu Poo Yee a very well respected GM of southern praying mantis, but nope never herd of you guys.

I asked sifu Chan Poi ( the GM of Wha Lum) and oh yea my sifu's cousin about SD and he is some what of a colorful character like my sifu and well I realy can't repeat what he said.

Should I go on???:cool:

It's ok to defend ones style and preference but some of the things that I hear you guys say is just plain stupid, historicaly incorrect, and missleading:(

greencloud.net

[tattooedmonk]

We are talking about traditional styles that come out of the Shaolin Monestary that SD claims to be a part of.

When you are refering to traditional styles of preying mantis and you make statement that SD does all the Styles, youre making a pretty bold statement.

In order to do this you have to be able to trace a distinct lineage to each style you mentioned. Lineage charts (that can be proven) create checks and balances so that the prospective student is able to discern wether or not a style is real or a replica.

Just like an antique dealer know what to look for when looking for real art, an expert in kung fu can tell whether it's a real traditional system or something that was slapped together by a jack of all trades and master of none.

In the earlier post you mentioned that the Bong Bo set is part of SD. That's a pefect example because when it comes to that form it's distinctly a 7 star form. My sifu Chan Tai San was married to Jew lun's (GC of 7 * PM) and after asking
some of his student's guess what no one ever herd of SD or master Sin

You see the only whay for someone to know that style is to have trained with someone who can trace their lineage back to them.

I asked Sifu Poo Yee a very well respected GM of southern praying mantis, but nope never herd of you guys.

I asked sifu Chan Poi ( the GM of Wha Lum) and oh yea my sifu's cousin about SD and he is some what of a colorful character like my sifu and well I realy can't repeat what he said.

Should I go on???:cool:

It's ok to defend ones style and preference but some of the things that I hear you guys say is just plain stupid, historicaly incorrect, and missleading:(

greencloud.netis very distorted.....

up until recently there were no records of the lineage and history of any styles..

anyone, if they knew enough oral history and tradition ,could write down and say that this is their lineage or history or blahblahblah......but it would not necessarily make it true or authentic...or "REAL"

many forms were created in the shaolin temple and left to be made into other styles and many styles were created outside the temple and were absorbed into the teachings..this has been going on for decades now..

you should explore the whole history of shaolin and not just your little part of it

the forms are there( in SD), the techniques are there, the training is there,and the applications are there..if it was just all slapped together it would not have all these thing

...and if you were involved in SD for even the shortest time you would see this...

I do not believe that your masters or sifus would appreciated you using their names in this thread much less posting that they said something less than flattering about another person or style....this is not what a master or sifu does...

oh and many masters will say just about anything to save face....so it is quite possible that these people have said this or that about SD...this does not really concern me..

I have had chinese people stop me in the park and ask me why I am wearing a Japanese uniform doing chinese martial arts....( I explain and they understand)

.....funny how they could see past the outward appearence yet you can not ...

( plus the forms you have seen performed are not done by the best performers..... in my honest opinion....)

[ingchao]

Tattooed Monk: Let's see some vids of people you consider good.

Also, Have you heard of any of the Masters that Greencloud mentioned?

'Cause if you did you'd be questioning things you think to be true. Yes, you're right that most KF or other MA history is word of mouth, but the people GC mentioned are the real deal and if they have nothing to say or have never heard of SD than something might be up that bears further research on your part. I admire you for standing up for your art, but every coin has 2 sides. Take a look at it from another perspective.

[tattooedmonk]

Tattooed Monk: Let's see some vids of people you consider good.

Also, Have you heard of any of the Masters that Greencloud mentioned?

'Cause if you did you'd be questioning things you think to be true. Yes, you're right that most KF or other MA history is word of mouth, but the people GC mentioned are the real deal and if they have nothing to say or have never heard of SD than something might be up that bears further research on your part. I admire you for standing up for your art, but every coin has 2 sides. Take a look at it from another perspective.I will ...

yes I have.....

I know their reputations and have met both of them briefly......they both were very nice people and I could not imagine them saying something overly critical or dismissing other people's systems/styles....

I take everything into consideration,everyones words, and everyones knowledge before I come to any conclusion about anything....

what makes them the real deal to me is not the outward appearences or the formalities or the lineage or any other superficial aspects but the quality of the material taught and the usage of the techniques...period.

I have seen good and bad in every art I have ever studied......I was in SD for 15 years and saw plenty of both

I have seen all the material up to 6th black.....and have 25 years total experience in the martial arts...so it is not like I am some newbee

[Green Cloud]

Ingchao, this is a typical answere that I'm used to from these guys.

Ask a valid question and it's side stepped. Make a point and you get a rediculous rebutle.

As for what the tatoo monk said about the masters wouldn't like to be quoted, please!! nothing bad was said exept for the truth.

None of these respected masters have ever herd of SD. SD can peddle that sh!t to the average laymen but not me.

Lineage is not hear say it's fact, hell you can go on line and trace anyones family tree. Except for SD nothing but smoke and mirrors.

Go to my sifu's village and you can confirm evrything he said by talking to people there. That's in Toi shan BTW

The funny thing is there lots of SD schools nation wide, one would think that someone from the CMA comunity can vouch for these guys.

[tattooedmonk]

Ingchao, this is a typical answere that I'm used to from these guys.

Ask a valid question and it's side stepped. Make a point and you get a rediculous rebutle.

As for what the tatoo monk said about the masters wouldn't like to be quoted, please!! nothing bad was said exept for the truth.

None of these respected masters have ever herd of SD. SD can peddle that sh!t to the average laymen but not me.

Lineage is not hear say it's fact, hell you can go on line and trace anyones family tree. Except for SD nothing but smoke and mirrors.

Go to my sifu's village and you can confirm evrything he said by talking to people there. That's in Toi shan BTW

The funny thing is there lots of SD schools nation wide, one would think that someone from the CMA comunity can vouch for these guys.the buddha once said do not believe something because everyone believes it , or because it is written in a book or because it is tradition........only believe it to be if you find it useful and true...

well it appears that the only reason why you believe your style is real and ours is not is because of these pitfalls ..you should rethink your beliefs and get your head out of the sand...

you know I have been doing SD for 15+ years and I still question , doubt ,and disbelieve the history and lineage because of the inconsistances ...and not failing to mention over promotion and marketing...but this does not take away from all the benefits to be had...

you know that if the story is true about SD the it would be understandable that no one has heard of it because of the medical condition of Su Kong....

plus I think that most of the people that claim southern Shaolin lineage are mistaken ..I think that they came from a local affiliate school or smaller branch school....this would explain the lack of formal attire( monks robes) as well as many other things...

it would stand to reason also that if the southern branch was affiliated with the northern branch like SD claims( and many other schools)that the most of the forms would be the same ( like in our lineage)..was not the southern branch created by northern practitioners???

if you look at the so called southern forms they look more like hand technique exercises that you would do as a warm before you did actual forms...yeah some of them that were created more recently have more movements and greater range of motion, etc...but I thing you should reevaluate your thinking and beliefs

......like I said, we are talking about people who will say anything, even lie( they do not see it as such ), to save face...... just because everyone says it or believes it does not make it true....

I think that it is possible that both of our lineages have done this for so long that they do not even know what the real lineages is.....

as far as vouch for SD ...look up eric lee( famous forms champion), douglas wong( white lotus), greglon lee( jeet kune do /jun fan/ wing chun, larry ma( jeet kune do / june fan/ wing chun) or kam yuen( choreographer for kung fu series and shaolin tai mantis master)

...all of these guy have met and I am sure would vouch for him and they all called sin the' master sin...( Ihave been there on many occasions to witness this)

why would they do that or even hangout with nor be associated with him if he was not a legitimate master???

[Green Cloud]

I do not question sims skills, The people that you have mentioned all do eclectic styles.

None of these masters have ever fabricated their history. You also bring up masters that have nothing to with Preying Mantis.

So one day you witnesed Master Sin hanging out at a local event with other Sifus and they were nice to him. That means nothing Sifu's are polite and they were just being politicaly correct at a local tourney.

Any way think about what Budha said and open your eyes.

[Blacktiger]

Quote:

why would they do that or even hangout with nor be associated with him if he was not a legitimate master???


My friend its called manners and etiquette.

[Green Cloud]

Quote:

why would they do that or even hangout with nor be associated with him if he was not a legitimate master???


My friend its called manners and etiquette.

That just about sums it up mate.

[Blacktiger]

Word!

Could be pity also :eek:

Just joking!!!!

[golden arhat]

were all kool and the gang
sorry about before will look it up
were all good right ?

[GeneChing]

If you want to discuss new forums, take that up here (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=709740).

If you want to discuss Shaolin Do, take that up here (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32782).