Truth, Justice, And all that Stuff: Superman & Philosophy

[The Willow Sword]

You know i am not a real big fan of DC comics. I did though like the Batman and Superman comics.

To me the superman character will always embody what Christopher Reeves(rest his soul) did with the character. I mean wasnt "Superman" an American creation to begin with? Wasnt the character created to put forth an idealic american mindset? True Superman was a character that was a worldly arbitor. But essentially the Character is an AMERICAN one.

and even though i am a democrat liberal i still feel that American icons should be KEPT as such and not toned down to pull in foreign box office profits. Especially trying to pull in profits from those countries that dont like us very much( and rightly so in some cases).

It just seems to me that Superman isnt the Superman we once knew now because the "American Way" was taken out of the iconic statement that has been used in the comics since before the movies of this character was created.

Any thoughts???? Opinions???? Rants?????

Peace,,TWS

[KC Elbows]

Well, the basic idea of the uberman is technically german, right?

[Merryprankster]

To be clear, it's Neitzschean, not Nazi.

The ubermensch was the man who had advanced so far beyond the rest of man that mankind could no longer judge him.

The Nazis declared, rather differently, that "Aryans" were superior to all other races.

Considering that the Aryans were actually inhabitants of the Indian subcontinent (if memory serves) I've always found that interesting.

[Water Dragon]

Nietzsche confuses me. I'm not much of an existentionalist.

[mantis108]

Well, I thought Superman was at least part if not sole Canadian creation?! :confused:

Anyway, Ultraman is way cooler and he got a huge family network too (not like the orphane boy Jo-el from Krepton). :cool: :D

Come to think of it Bill's analysis of Superman is pretty dead on (pun intended). Clark Kent is the alter ego of Superman. :eek: And he fancies Louis ... At the end of the day, we all look to shag the lassies, super hero or no super hero. Now, That's as Zen as it can get ....

Mantis108

[Merryprankster]

The good news is that I'm not entirely certain he was either.

I think he was probably a "proto-existentialist."

His greatest contribution and most fundamental point, IMO was his determination that:

1. Values are man-made (God is dead)
2. Because of that, we have the power to declare good and evil (and thus move beyond them).

Thus Spake Zarathustra was actually all kinds of sarcastic even to those who didn't believe in God as well as those who did - because they didn't recognize his second point, they were doomed to be constrained just as if values were commands from God anyway.

[Water Dragon]

I just remember reading him in a class on existentialism back in college. I like Kierkegaard a little better, but he was quite the anal one.

[joedoe]

Well, the latest Superman movie was created in Australia ;)

[David Jamieson]

Superman was indeed created by a couple of canadians in canada(Joe Shuster and Jerry Siegel) and exported to Cleveland Ohio where the rights were sold and the rest is history.

I honestly don't think Joe or Jerry were even mindful of Neitschze, Ubermen, Galactic men or the rest. It was just an idea that the time was right, another archetype born out of archetypes of old.

consider that it was the depression era, and everyone needed a hero.

[SanHeChuan]

Nietzsche's superman had nothing to do with physical prowess or what ever.

To Nietzsche a superman was someone who gave everyone else something to believe in. Christ could have been a superman to Nietzsche because even though god wasn't real, Jesus gave people something to have faith in. Even if it was faith in a fantasy.

The superman recognized that morality etc was his own creation, so that's what he would do, create a value system and pass it on.

Somehow this tied into architects. Nietzsche thought they would make good Supermen, because they have the power to literally create the world we live in.

But, considering most of my understanding of Nietzsche comes from architecture classes, I could be totally wrong. :p

[Water Dragon]

This thread makes my head hurt.

[BlueTravesty]

I just remember reading him in a class on existentialism back in college. I like Kierkegaard a little better, but he was quite the anal one.

I personally liked Kant. Pretty dense stuff, but once you get into it, (and have a handy supply of Advil.) makes it worth the mental gymnastics.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

"Truth, Justice, and the American Way"... interesting concepts.. but, does a nation (America) have the right to export these notions by force (armed or leveraged negotiation)?

Truth, is an individual perception.. Justice, is a consensus of standards that vary culturally and geographically.. and, "The American Way", is quite greedy and corrupt..

Superman was/is an expression of an ideal, far from the reality.. Is the "ideal" a possibility in today's geo-political environment?

Be well...

[KC Elbows]

I honestly don't think Joe or Jerry were even mindful of Neitschze, Ubermen, Galactic men or the rest. It was just an idea that the time was right, another archetype born out of archetypes of old.


Yeah, they didn't likely have any intention to cite Neitschze, but the idea goes back to him, and is linked at this point, even if it wasn't back when those two made him up.

I hadn't realized they were canadians. That explains DC stealing their ideas, since they don't have the same rights as real Americans. If only they had had some sort of selfless hero dedicated to justice they could call upon...:D

[KC Elbows]

Greetings..

"Truth, Justice, and the American Way"... interesting concepts.. but, does a nation (America) have the right to export these notions by force (armed or leveraged negotiation)?

I'm not familiar with truth being exported by force too often by any country, probably rarer justice, and America has had a lot better luck importing the various American Ways through satellite and cable than by force.

Truth, is an individual perception.. Justice, is a consensus of standards that vary culturally and geographically.. and, "The American Way", is quite greedy and corrupt..

I think what many who like the Superman concept see as the "American Way" is equality of opportunity and liberty, not conspicuous consumption and any opportunism that allows that. I think you are confounding the views of our President and some of his supporters with the rest of us.

Superman was/is an expression of an ideal, far from the reality.. Is the "ideal" a possibility in today's geo-political environment?

Be well...

Interesting question. Because the ideal is an individualistic one, I say yes, there is nothing our government can do that will prevent individuals from helping each other based out of need. My father has spent his retirement volunteering time at a children's hospital with kids who more often than not are not going to live, some of whom get no other visitors. I see this as the ideal becoming real. I'm sure you know similar folk. Not as colorful as Superman, a bit more paunch and a tendency to play practical jokes on the unsuspecting, but still unswerving in the truth that there is nothing he could do for himself that is more important, there is justice in the idea that these kids deserve to have someone there for them and will have someone, and American in that my dad is purposefully obnoxious.:D

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Thanks, KC Elbows.. that was a beautiful sentiment, and Kudos to your dad.. <respectful bows>

Yes, i agree with the notion that the current administration doesn't effectively represent the core values of "America".. my concern is that evolution takes a twist and progresses awkwardly toward dismissing those values as "weak".. i'm hoping we can effect a sincere change of perspective where those values are regarded as core strengths.. anyway, just some personal thoughts on the matter..

Be well..

[GLW]

And now for something completely different :

The Monty Python Philosopher's Song :

Immanuel Kant was a real ****ant
Who was very rarely stable.

Heidegger, Heidegger was a boozy beggar
Who could think you under the table.

David Hume could out-consume
Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel, [some versions have 'Schopenhauer and Hegel']

And Wittgenstein was a beery swine
Who was just as schloshed as Schlegel.

There's nothing Nietzsche couldn't teach ya
'Bout the raising of the wrist.
Socrates, himself, was permanently ****ed.

John Stuart Mill, of his own free will,
On half a pint of shandy was particularly ill.

Plato, they say, could stick it away--
Half a crate of whisky every day.

Aristotle, Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle.
Hobbes was fond of his dram,

And René Descartes was a drunken ****.
'I drink, therefore I am.'

Yes, Socrates, himself, is particularly missed,
A lovely little thinker,
But a bugger when he's ****ed.

[BruceSteveRoy]

I highly recommend that everyone read the trade paperback Superman: Red Son. i have never been a fan of superman but it is so friggin good. It works off the idea what if superman crashed into earth a few hours later and landed in the soviet union instead of the US and was working for communist ideals. O man its great. and the twist ending will make your jaw drop. So good.

[Judge Pen]

I personally liked Kant. Pretty dense stuff, but once you get into it, (and have a handy supply of Advil.) makes it worth the mental gymnastics.

I preferred Kant man myself. His ideas of morality are difficult to apply though. Most people seem to be driven by more utilitarian concepts the Kant's catagorical imperitives.

A t-shirt I once saw: Front: "God is Dead" -- Nietzsche Back -- "Nietzsche is Dead" -- God.

[mantis108]

If you look at our present Prime Minister, Steven Harper, He does try very hard to convince people that he's a Clark Kent wannabe. Just look at the glasses and the suits. :eek:

If he has his way, Canada will soon be annexed by the American Empire with the Bush imperial family holding court forever anyway. The men (B & H) were practically about to "Patriot" kiss each other on their first date. So... Superman will still be all American. Don't you worry about it. ;) :D Think about it ... 67 states with bountiful resources like oil, gold, diamond, etc... Wow, Uber State of America!

Mantis108

[David Jamieson]

The Harperbot will fail in his endeavour.

However, I think if Canada, Mexico and The USA teamed up
poltically, economically and Militarily, then the rest of the world
is simply our oyster.

Now that's a superpower!

[Jingwu Man]

Save us (Canada), Superman!

[WinterPalm]

I'm not going to vote for any of the parties here in Canada, least of all the Conservatives seeing what they have done to the US, but you have to admit that Harper has basically done everything he said he would...and everybody knows what that means next election...Star Wars.

[Jingwu Man]

Hmmmm.
Who is the Empire and who are the rebels?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

ARE YOU SERIOUS!! Canada's NOT a US state? How did that happen?

Why is it so hot.. and why am i in this hand-basket... ?

Be well.....

[KC Elbows]

Greetings..

ARE YOU SERIOUS!! Canada's NOT a US state?

The dead giveaway is that they don't know how to speak American.:D

[Design Sifu]

It should be noted that the "Truth, Justice, and the American Way" phrase was coined in the early 60's as a part of the TV series' opening narration
"Faster than a speeding bullet. More powerful than a locomotive. Able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. Look! Up in the sky. It's a bird. It's a plane. It's Superman! Yes, it's Superman — strange visitor from another planet who came to Earth with powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men. Superman — who can change the course of mighty rivers, bend steel with his bare hands, and who, disguised as Clark Kent, mild-mannered reporter for a great metropolitan newspaper, fights a neverending battle for Truth, Justice, and the American Way."
~Bill Kennedy

Consider also that superman wasn't always the "boyscout" he's known as these days.
In the Golden-Age stories, Superman's personality is rough and destructive. Although nowhere near as cold-blooded as the early Batman, the Superman featured in the comics of the 1930s and 1940s is not squeamish about tossing evildoers around in such a manner that fatalities are occasionally hard to avoid.

By the end of 1940, however, editor Whitney Ellsworth instituted a code of conduct for his characters to follow, and the writers moved toward Superman's better known "Boy Scout" persona. Even so, Superman's capacity for anger is a key element in many of his most dramatic moments, allowing readers to see that Superman's goodness is not inherent. His adoptive human parents the Kents imbue him with a strong sense of purpose, morality, selflessness, modesty, fairness, compassion, and hope. Superman was raised to believe that his abilities are gifts, and are not to be abused. In many ways, he is the perfect hero, as he embodies all the best traits that people would believe to see in themselves.

Recent writers have attempted to deepen Superman's persona and provide a rationale for his goodness. Superman is often depicted with a mix of idealism, restraint, fairness, and compassion for others. The Birthright limited series attributes the compassion Superman feels for living things to his ability to see their "auras". He also struggles with the differences between what is right and what is practical. In Superman/Batman, Batman says, "In many ways Clark is the most human of us all, and when he shoots fire down from the sky, it's hard not to think of him as a god. How fortunate for us that this never occurs to him" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman#Personality_and_character)

[Banjos_dad]

design sifu, I was waiting for someone to reference the old George Reeves version of superman.
I was going to say, I am leaning toward this pomaded, surly Superman as my favorite. His feats were nothing compared to the Salkind film versions of Christopher Reeves' Superman but then people did not expect as much then lol. It was enough to withstand a point-blank machine gun barrage. He was kind of mean though. He really took his work personally. You quoted the opening to the Superman tv show ( or serial films?? whatever they were... when i was a kid they were on tv already).... i could hear the scratchy Superman theme playing lol. silly huh?

btw. my "Shaolin" t-shirt is pretty much my favorite one, unless i am wrong, that's your artwork. Thanks for that...


However, I think if Canada, Mexico and The USA teamed up
poltically, economically and Militarily, then the rest of the world
is simply our oyster.

Now that's a superpower!

once again David ensconces the correct in a crystalline Fortress of Correctitude.

[Design Sifu]

Indeed that was from the George Reeves series...

an amuzing read on the various SUPERMEN can be found here (http://www.comics101.com/?page=C101)

[The Willow Sword]

:)

i've had alot of fun reading the posts here. Its amazing. from Superman American icon to existentialism to nazi'ism to Nietzche'ism to Communism.

i never really knew all that much about the internal workings of the superman character. What i was able to figure out from the character from a political and propaganda standpoint is similar to the post that stated that people in that depression era needed a hero to look up to and to pad the effects of being poor and depressed.

I didnt think that so many delved in to the dichotomy of a comic book character.

MY whole point about this thread was that the recent release of the movie took away that "the american way" and it was done so to pull in foreign markets that didnt really like our country.
Most people who go to see this movie will compare and look back to the christopher reeves version of superman that eclipsed and basically shadowed the 60's version of superman. Since Christopher struggled so hard to get better after his C1 got busted and miraculously survived it, people were eager to see how the character evolved on the screen and if it would do christopher justice(because in my opinion christopher reeves took tat character and made it his own and it hasnt been done since, until now).NOTE: i do NOT acknowledge the dumb A$$ Television series that have come out and made the character uhhhh "GAY", i hated the early Tv series and i equally hate the smallville BS.

For me the character doesnt symbolize any existential or communist or german nazi ideal of a ultimate man. To me and as a child seeing the movies i associated superman with basically what the original creation of the character was. An Alien being who crashes on earth and has super powers and does the right thing to protect those who are too weak to protect themselves. I was abused severely as a child and so the superman character who was impervious to everything bad got my imagination and my place of escape going strong, and as a result i was better able to deal with what was being thrown at me as a child.

anyway, great posts from everyone, even the ones who ive had clashes with in the past. See you people CAN post intelligently when you try;)

As always,TWS

[KC Elbows]

I just said it was a German idea, refering to the German philosopher who popularized it. MP was the one who brought up the nazis.

[Design Sifu]

:)

i've had alot of fun reading the posts here. Its amazing. from Superman American icon to existentialism to nazi'ism to Nietzche'ism to Communism.

i never really knew all that much about the internal workings of the superman character. What i was able to figure out from the character from a political and propaganda standpoint is similar to the post that stated that people in that depression era needed a hero to look up to and to pad the effects of being poor and depressed.

I didnt think that so many delved in to the dichotomy of a comic book character.

MY whole point about this thread was that the recent release of the movie took away that "the american way" and it was done so to pull in foreign markets that didnt really like our country.
Most people who go to see this movie will compare and look back to the christopher reeves version of superman that eclipsed and basically shadowed the 60's version of superman. Since Christopher struggled so hard to get better after his C1 got busted and miraculously survived it, people were eager to see how the character evolved on the screen and if it would do christopher justice(because in my opinion christopher reeves took tat character and made it his own and it hasnt been done since, until now).NOTE: i do NOT acknowledge the dumb A$$ Television series that have come out and made the character uhhhh "GAY", i hated the early Tv series and i equally hate the smallville BS.

For me the character doesnt symbolize any existential or communist or german nazi ideal of a ultimate man. To me and as a child seeing the movies i associated superman with basically what the original creation of the character was. An Alien being who crashes on earth and has super powers and does the right thing to protect those who are too weak to protect themselves. I was abused severely as a child and so the superman character who was impervious to everything bad got my imagination and my place of escape going strong, and as a result i was better able to deal with what was being thrown at me as a child.

anyway, great posts from everyone, even the ones who ive had clashes with in the past. See you people CAN post intelligently when you try;)

As always,TWS

Well, it should be said that Superman was essentailly the first superhero. It was the creation of this character that heralded the creation of a new genre, the Superhero (prior to that charactors like The Phantom, Doc Savage & the Shadow did exist as a sort of proto-superhero but were still rooted deeply in "pulp" conventions). It was also Superman that shouldered the boom in a then new industry; comicbook publishing. Superman is not a super-hero he's the super-hero.

Alot has been written about the meaning and themes used in the creation of this mythos. It could be said that he's popular culture's first illeagal alien, depending of course on which origin is read. In some cases baby Kal-El is brought to an orphanage before being adopted by the Kents. In other (more recent) tellings, the Kents simply tell everyone he's their baby, born during the long winter season; commiting some level of fraud in the process . . . how American.

Undoubtedly the superman myth is not only a depression era wish full-fillment. Its also a great retelling of the American dream. Young immigrant (Kal El) come to the U.S.A. reinvents himself (as Clark Kent) and persues his very personal definition of success.

I'm not sure you're reasoning WRT removing "the American way" is all that substantial. Is this something you read somewhere? Or are you quoting the character Perry White in the latest film?

That phrase was included in the then most current version of Superman, the George Reeves TV series. It was being produced in the 50's amidst McCarthy's reign of stupidity. How could they not place an emphasis on "the American Way" on a show who's lead character was from someplace outside the U.S.A.?

As this myth is being cast in a modern era it's of course going to reflect modern ideals, in this case a globalized society. Still there's no doub that Superman is as much a U.S. icon as Micky Mouse. More so even than say, Captain America.

I'll agree with Chris Reeves being a true modern manifestation of the Superman ideal. Director Bryan Singer was truely wise in his choice to honor those previous Films; particularly the first & second. In actuality a major plot point in the most current film could not be believable if not for a significant portion of the 2nd film.

What made the current film work (for me) was how it allowed the viewer to draw from whatever memories they may have of the previous films with-out having to have seen any of them to enjoy this version. Superman may or may not have flown around the earth fast enough to turn back time (as the Chris Reeves film had him do dispite any logic or lack there of) but he certainly made an enemy of Lex.

This film remained true to the Superman mythos as presented (almost weekly) by DC comics. Yet it made no effort to discount previous film version, as Batman Begins looks to achieve. THis could have been the same Superman that fought that Solor powered dude on the moon in IV or hung out with Richard Prior in III. I prefer to think not but either way it didn't deminish my enjoyment of the film.

The Lois and Clark TV series kept my attention for only a handful of episodes and I've yet to catch Smallville. However here's an amuzing read on Superman as a sex symbol, it might prove entertaining. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13556951/)

As for any extended reading of Superman: Check out SUPERMAN: RED SON for the reasons mentioned above. Also have a look at DC: NEW FRONTEERS for a modern view of a superman set in the 50's-60's. If you want to spend less than 5$ go out and pick up any issue of All Star Superman. Great Great stuff.

[Design Sifu]

some more info on "...the american way" can be found here (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/30/opinion/30lundegaard.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin)

[The Willow Sword]

I'm not sure you're reasoning WRT removing "the American way" is all that substantial. Is this something you read somewhere?

well i had seen the movie and the line wasnt included but only once but fleetingly and is very easy to miss. then quite strangely enough the local news did a puff peice on the movie and they focused on that very thing. apparently it got some scrutiny from the patriotic groups who felt that the exclusion of "the american way" in the superman character somehow took away from the character itself. it was then reported by some of the british team who was part of the movie making that the line was taken out because they wanted to appeal to foreign markets, especially those foreign ones that do not really like america.

anyway i kinda agreed with the story even though it bordered real heavily on the right wing propaganda machine(and would also explain why a right wing run TV station such as the FOX network{where i saw the puff peice) would run a story like that.

anyway i liked the movie and i thought that maybe there was some lack of integrity on the movie makers part to pull in foreign cash by eliminating that line that has been part of the superman icon for many many years.

Peace, Yeah ya war mongers, PEACE,,,TWS

[mantis108]

Are we talking, by reinventing Superman over and over again(practically a marriage of modern day mytho and media), it is to some degree revisiting the "American Experience" for Americans in particular? BTW, I see comics today has the same capacity of conventional media. If so, It would be interesting to see how the world and the critics view and receive this latest updated version.

Mantis108

[Design Sifu]

I enjoyed the film as well.

TWS thanks for clarifying what you meant. And I think we sort of are talking about how the Superman mythos does seem to change and evolve with the times. Considering this character was first created in the mid 30's alot has changed since then.

Visually there are many changes that have happened. The costume design has changed. Even his mighty \S/ has seen sevaral changes. Look here. (http://www.supermanhomepage.com/images/miscellaneous/s-evolution.jpg)

As mentioned in the above article the "the American Way." has not always been there. Interestingly Truth & Justice always have, meanwhile such things as Tolerance have come and gone. "all that stuff" seems suitably post-modern to me. But of course tastes may vary...

Interesting that the far right seem upset that Superman can no longer be easily used as a icon for a new American Century.

[DouglasFir]

I just said it was a German idea, refering to the German philosopher who popularized it. MP was the one who brought up the nazis.

If you ever want to read the closest thing you'll get to a nazi Superman read Alan Moore's "Miracleman" - over the course of the story he begins to see himself as a better race than humans and by the end he has created a new world shaped by himself where he tells people how to live their lives to be happy... of course that's a very simple recap of a complex story!

The thing is that throughout the story Miracleman is the victim and later the hero and ultimately he is a likeable character... but when you look at the way his character develops and what he does to the human race... basically he's a big old flying nazi!

[KC Elbows]

If you ever want to read the closest thing you'll get to a nazi Superman read Alan Moore's "Miracleman" - over the course of the story he begins to see himself as a better race than humans and by the end he has created a new world shaped by himself where he tells people how to live their lives to be happy... of course that's a very simple recap of a complex story!

The thing is that throughout the story Miracleman is the victim and later the hero and ultimately he is a likeable character... but when you look at the way his character develops and what he does to the human race... basically he's a big old flying nazi!

I'm a big fan of Alan Moore's stuff. I've been considering checking out MM, just hadn't had the time. He did a Superman Annual that was really good, probably the best issue of that comic I'd read.

Watchmen is in preproduction at this point. Moore automatically dissavows himself of films of his work, but this doesn't mean that they were bad experiences, he simply doesn't seem to want to deal with film at all. Not sure if it's true, but I heard he donates much of the profits from films of his work to the illustrators.

I'm wanting to also check out his issues of Supreme.

Thanks for the lowdown on MM.

[Design Sifu]

Alot of people really like Moore's SUPREME for it's riff on all things Silver Age about Superman. His DC comics work has been collected in a trade Paper Back called DC UNIVERSE: THE STORIES OF ALAN MOORE (http://www.dccomics.com/graphic_novels/?gn=4713). It has a handful of his Superman storys (drawn by the ledendary Curt Swan) plus the BATAMN: Killing Joke and some green lanturn and green arrow stories. Great work from a time before he began deconstructing such Genres.

From his newer stuff I'd recomend TOP 10 and League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, which should have been rated R as a Film. This was also the film that turned him off of Hollywood all together.

In short some L.A. screenwriters Sued the Producers of LXG as well as Moore himself for "stealing" concepts they included in a filmscript titled "Cast of Characters." The changes made to Moore's story for the film adapation were apparently taken from that script, but the writers still sought to sue Moore as a part of that lawsuit. Prior to this point Moore was simply disinterested in what Hollywood did to his works. After the legal accusations (which he was found innocent of) Moore stated that we wanted nothing to do with Hollywood and any money that would normally go to him for such films as CONSTANTINE, Watchmen etc... should just go to the artists who Co-created the work.

The recent V for Vendetta film was said to be "based on he Graphic Novel by David Lloyd."

[KC Elbows]

I'm not sure I've ever seen you make a post without a link in it. My faith in the world is shattered.

[Design Sifu]

I'm not sure I've ever seen you make a post without a link in it. My faith in the world is shattered.

oh man... I better fix (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=688448&postcount=39) that

[KC Elbows]

I feel much better.