Kwoon Etiquette

[Dano]

A question about kwoon etiquette,

My son studied Wing Chun for three years. He was awarded his junior black sash, after the 2nd year. Twice, his Sifu chose to skip him a sash level at testing because he said that my son was ahead of the rest of his peers and deserved to skip the level. I never saw another student skip two levels. I only mention this to show that they liked my son and the potential they saw in him…I think.

After three years, my son was getting bored. The school moved and most of the older students stopped attending. My son found himself in a class of predominantly beginning students.

When my son decided to stop attending classes, my wife took my son to the kwoon and explained the decision to Sifu, and his senior student, who was my son’s primary teacher. Afterwards, I sent a follow up e-mail thanking them for the time they had devoted to instructing my son and attached my favorite picture of my son with his teacher.

I never received a response to the e-mail from either of them. Not that I was expecting them to say how great my son is, but a simple acknowledgement of receiving the e-mail would’ve been nice. It left me with a bad taste in my mouth. I heard them talk frequently of Kung Fu family, and Kung Fu etiquette. I’m left with the impression that those familial feelings are reserved for “paying” members of the family and that once you stop paying, you’re no longer deserving of simple consideration.

My son will soon be old enough to join the adult class and has talked about going back to study. Do I just need to lighten up about my perceived slight, or if a kwoon really stresses family and etiquette, but don’t show it once a student stops attending, should that matter?

I haven’t mentioned any of this to my son and won’t. If he wants to study there I’ll let him, but the respect I once held his Sifu and DaiSihing in is gone. Those of you that run your own kwoons, what are your thoughts?

Thanks

[Average Joe]

No belts at my school. But out of curiosity when your son took those tests was a fee required? and if a belt was skipped want the fee increased for the next? I would not be upset with the lack of reply I think emails are a total joke a phonecall or personal visit take alot more courage, just look at the keyboard commandoes in these forums. If your son still desires to atten das an adult then he should of his personal choice . Do you also attend?

[Buddha_Fist]

Avoid any Wing Chun schools with sashes & talks about "Kwoon Etiquette". Running around in silk pajamas and talking like Master Po only adds unnecessary noise to your training. Check whether there are more professional schools around...

:(

[Sihing73]

Hello Dano,

It is hard to respond without knowing the full circumstances. My suggestion would be for you to go and speak to the Sifu and express your thoughts. Be honest but also be ready to listen ot their replies. It is possible that they simply overlooked responding to you or perhaps they did not get or read the email you sent. They may even have felt that they already had addressed the matter when you wife visited and explained things.

Everyone is different and percetpion is everything. Just because you and I may see something one way does not mean everyone else will. Nor does it mean we are necessarily right or wrong in our views. Bottom line is that right now you do not know what the reasons were for your "perceived" lack of a response. Go to them and speak to them about what happened and then see what happens.

As to the famial aspect of the training this is something you will not find in all schools. In some instances the relationship is there and it is like a big family. In others it is simply a business. Still others fall in between.

I have ben fortunate to have experienced the family aspect, having lived in the home of one of my Sifu and being very good firends with my current Sifu. I have noticed that this does not always trickle down as there seem ot be some who seek out this aspect while others do not. Again, to each their own and perception is key.

[Mr Punch]

After three years, my son was getting bored. If that was the problem of itself and it communicated itself to the school that's not good for a start. Even if it's because of the beginning students thing that's still not too good, because often sifus expect junior high grades to help out with the lower grades as part of their development, which I think is reasonable... a way of putting back into the community something of what you have got out.

I never received a response to the e-mail from either of them. Not that I was expecting them to say how great my son is, but a simple acknowledgement of receiving the e-mail would’ve been nice. It left me with a bad taste in my mouth. I heard them talk frequently of Kung Fu family, and Kung Fu etiquette. I’m left with the impression that those familial feelings are reserved for “paying” members of the family and that once you stop paying, you’re no longer deserving of simple consideration.

First, you did the right thing in explaining to and thanking them. Secondly, they may be very very busy and therefore have missed the chance to mail you back at the appropriate time. Thirdly, and I'm afraid this is probably the overriding factor: your point about the kungfu family being for paid-up members only is accurate in many cases. They give the 'pay as much as you can' thing a lot of lip service, but the fact is with a lot of Chinese (and incidentally Japanese) organisations it's out of sight, out of mind.

My son will soon be old enough to join the adult class and has talked about going back to study. Do I just need to lighten up about my perceived slight, or if a kwoon really stresses family and etiquette, but don’t show it once a student stops attending, should that matter?

I haven’t mentioned any of this to my son and won’t. If he wants to study there I’ll let him, but the respect I once held his Sifu and DaiSihing in is gone. If he's going to be old enough to join the adult classes can we presume he's going to be an adult? In which case, you're correct in letting him make his own decision, and in that you should probably lighten up. Of course, adult or not, you are quite within your rights and may even owe it to your son to express your reservations to him as objectively as possible.

My son studied Wing Chun for three years. He was awarded his junior black sash, after the 2nd year. Twice, his Sifu chose to skip him a sash level at testing because he said that my son was ahead of the rest of his peers and deserved to skip the level. I never saw another student skip two levels. I only mention this to show that they liked my son and the potential they saw in him…I think.BTW, as a final point, and I hope I'm wrong but unfortunately I've seen about it many times... they may have only promoted him so quickly to ensure that your were ensnared and continued to pay your dues. The belt thing is often to tie you to your school and illusions of progress and that's all.

[Mr Punch]

It is hard to respond without knowing the full circumstances. My suggestion would be for you to go and speak to the Sifu and express your thoughts. Be honest but also be ready to listen ot their replies. It is possible that they simply overlooked responding to you or perhaps they did not get or read the email you sent. They may even have felt that they already had addressed the matter when you wife visited and explained things.
And personally, I wouldn't bother.

If they did just overlook the mail (... although let's be honest how difficult is it to reply to a mail?) that's all well and good, but if it WAS a slight, they'll just brush you off with some pseudo-Chinesery and the taste in your mouth will get worse.

[Dano]

Average, Joe,

My son did pay a fee for testing, however, when he skipped levels he wasn't charged for the level he skipped.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"My son will soon be old enough to join the adult class and has talked about going back to study. Do I just need to lighten up about my perceived slight, or if a kwoon really stresses family and etiquette, but don’t show it once a student stops attending, should that matter?" (Dano)


***LIGHTEN UP.

[sandman]

I believe I would have thought the matter was settled. Your wife and son met with them (which is admirable) and then you sent a thank you note for their time.

Outside of email, I don't send a thank you note for receiving a thank you note. Why would I do it with email?

[Dano]

I appreciate the feedback. Just as a side note, the children's classes are for ages up to 12. Once a person is 12, they can start the adult classes. That point was brought up in a few of the posts, and I thought I should respond.

[anerlich]

Because it was a "Kung Fu" school where they have "Kung fu" ettiquette doesn't mean they magically will or shuold behave differently to anyone else.

If I was the teacher, I might have appreciated the thank you note, but replying to it might have smacked a bit of desperation or obsequiousness.

Your family chose to terminate the arrangement. Even if you handled it well, like you did, I don't think I'd feel that thanking you for breaking up so nicely was really necessary.

And as Victor said, lighten up. It's not that big a deal. The guy might teach KF, but he's not a Messiah. Don't expect everyone to be bound by your standards of behaviour.

[snakebyte8]

C/P

Su Dongpo was an avid student of Buddhist teachings, and often discussed them with his good friend, the Zen master Foyin. The two lived across the river from one another - Su Dongpo's residence on the north side and Foyin's Gold Mountain Temple on the south side.

One day, Su Dongpo felt inspired and wrote the following poem:

I bow my head to the heaven within heaven
Hairline rays illuminating the universe
The eight winds cannot move me
Sitting still upon the purple golden lotus

Impressed by himself, Su Dongpo dispatched a servant to hand-carry this poem to Foyin. He felt certain that his friend would be just as impressed.

When Foyin read the poem, he immediately saw that it was both a tribute to the Buddha and a declaration of spiritual refinement. The "eight winds" in the poem referred to praise, ridicule, honor, disgrace, gain, loss, pleasure and misery - interpersonal forces of the material world that drove and influenced the hearts of men. Su Dongpo was saying that he had attained a higher level of spirituality, where these forces no longer affected him.

Smiling, the Zen master wrote F@RT on the manuscript and had it returned to Su Dongpo.

Su Dongpo had been expecting compliments and a seal of approval, so he was shocked when he saw what the Zen master had written. He hit the roof: "How dare he insult me like this? Why that lousy old monk! He's got a lot of explaining to do!"

Full of indignation, Su Dongpo ordered a boat to ferry him to the other shore as quickly as possible. Once there, he jumped off and charged into the temple. He wanted to find Foyin and demand an apology.

He found Foyin's door closed. On the door was a piece of paper, with the following two lines:

The eight winds cannot move me
One F@RT blows me across the river

This stopped Su Dongpo cold. Foyin had anticipated this hotheaded visit. Su Dongpo's anger suddenly drained away as he understood his friend's meaning. If he really was a man of spiritual refinement, completely unaffected by the eight winds, then how could he be so easily provoked?

With a few strokes of the pen and minimal effort, Foyin showed that Su Dongpo was in fact not as spiritually advanced as he claimed to be. Ashamed but wiser, Su Dongpo departed quietly.

This event proved to be a turning point in Su Dongpo's spiritual development. From that point on, he became a man of humility, and not merely someone who boasted of possessing the virtue.
:p

[ngokfei]

As a MA Teacher I'll comment:

The skipping of ranks should be seen as a honor and a belief in your child's skills and maturity. (see they are not about the money as they waved the skipped levels fees).

An important note is did you tell the instructor that your child was getting bored due to the fact of the lack of training with same or senior level students? or did you just go in and tell them that your child was leaving.

What did the instructor say to this? Did they ask why and how they could fix the situation?

Schools are just that, sure a relationship is created between the staff and students but if the student leaves then the common thread is no more.

How many of us keep in touch with our high school teachers or past job employers?

Its nice to hear your son wants to resume his training, hope he is mature enough to handle the adult class and doesn't get bored too easily.

[Dano]

I really do appreciate the input. Maybe I just had to put my thoughts on paper (forum) to see the foolishness of my thoughts.

[Keng Geng]

Talk of Kung Fu Family is just a way of saying "Please pay us and take our B.S."

"Missing out on your disfunctional upbringing? Feeling nostalgia for that "tough love"? Join our Traditional kung fu kwoon. You'll feel right at home with our chinese kung fu family/politics and non-teaching teaching method, otherwise known as the "art of teaching without teaching". And that's not all! Sashes! We've got 'em too. We'll test you for the next level, a year later forget that we tested you, then demote you! How about that? All this for $300 per month. And as an added bonus, we'll guilt trip you into volunteering for our high disorganized kung fu tournaments. Call now!"

If there is a business transation the notion of Kung Fu family can not exist. If you pay your money, you are purchasing a service. It's that simple. If kung fu family is on the table, don't buy it. You're asking for trouble.

[Green Cloud]

Hi Da No, I think what happens is people forget with any organization even none profit is they got bills. If your a patron of the arts cool well bend over backwards for ya.

If you are pulling your son out of a kwoon then the letter from the Sifu's point of view might as well say," you suck and were leaving to go to a better school because we have no patients or loyalty". PS it's been nice chow for now.

The problem with most parents don't realy get it. In order to be part of the family you have to be loyal to the family and you go to show your support.

Teaching Kung Fu isn't like selling insurance not everyone needs it. Every student counts.

I alway tell my student's when they leave that one day our roads will cross again young aas hopper.

Who know they might come back and it's just good buiss. but than again that has nothing to do with family. It's just buiss.

greencloud.net

[Mr Punch]

"Missing out on your disfunctional upbringing? ...If there is a business transation the notion of Kung Fu family can not exist. If you pay your money, you are purchasing a service. It's that simple. If kung fu family is on the table, don't buy it. You're asking for trouble.
LOL :D

The above is correct.

Problem is, Green Cloud is correct too.

Depends completely on the teacher.

The real Chinese deal is exactly that they expect you to be like a family BUT they expect you to pay, and it depends on the teacher what happens after you've left. Incidentally in Japan it's the same (it's the Confucian aspect of loyalty I think) and in most cases, if you leave the school it really is out of sight out of mind, as I said.

Then you get a lot of Western schools who buy into the pomp of the Chinese tradition and expect you to kowtow to them and not to question their teaching... and then you get some Wstern teachers from more strict and involved traditional Chinese schools who don't assume the airs and graces but assume that if you are interested in kungfu it must be for the whole cultural package... Then you get some Western teachers who don't give a monkeys, and some Chinese teachers are like that nowadays too...

So, there are all sorts. You've heard everybody's different advice, now go with your gut: was the teacher a good seeming guy, and was the stuff he was teaching good for your son's and your goals?

Then follow Ultimate WC's advice! :D

[Green Cloud]

We forget that Kung Fu is an art just like any other, like Dance or Music you know not main stream like pop. Kung Fu is not main stream and like classical music and balet they have to have a good support group to exist.

Fortunatly for most arts like Balet and Opera they are supported by the rich. Kung Fu is not, maybe some shaoilin troops are but they focused them selves to a cirque de sole type crowds.

To run a traditional Kung Fu school is very difficult in deed. Morality and Ethics are a thing of the past in todays world. Think about it how many people on this site go to church or support their place of worship.

The fact is people have forgotten simple little traditions fo the past not that long ago. Just because you don't have the time to go to church on sundays doesn't mean that you don't have to send in your yearly donation.

For me my church is my kwoon my safe haven it's what keeps me grounded. Even after my Sifu got ill and could not teach anymore, I still sent him his monthly check. It was not only my obligation but my duty to take care of my sifu who had shown me another world.

Sifu means Teacher Father, wondering what the appropriate way to respect your sifu is??? Just ask your self HMM how would I treat my father.

Of course in todays dog eat dog world this Idealism is atiquated and Virtue is lost.:(


greencloud.net

[anerlich]

Morality and Ethics are a thing of the past in todays world. Think about it how many people on this site go to church or support their place of worship.


Morality and ethics are not a thing of the past. Nor do they necessarily have anything to do with going to Church or similar. I'm sure plenty of Mafiosi attend Mass every Sunday in between crominal acts.

I don't attend any church. As a non-Christian, I believe that to do so would be hypocritical to the extreme. Other's opinions of my non-attendance are of no consequence if I am to be true to myself.

Idealism is atiquated and Virtue is lost.

You are speaking for yourself. I disagree.

Morality, ethics and virtue come from within, not from establishment traditions. Not that traditions need be ignoble, just that adherence to them is not enough.

[Green Cloud]

Anerlich, I was speaking metophorically about the church thing and showing the parrallels between the two as to make a point about loyalty.

As far as my last statement is concerned, it's my way of saying that people now a days will just go a head and do what they want to do.

I'm glad that you are a moral guy on the inside but you don't represent society in a whole. Today people have forgotten the old ways and codes.

[Green Cloud]

Kwoon etiquette is an interesting topic, I'm just curious how students and Sifu's feel about this subject.

[Meklorien]

Avoid any Wing Chun schools with sashes & talks about "Kwoon Etiquette". Running around in silk pajamas and talking like Master Po only adds unnecessary noise to your training. Check whether there are more professional schools around...

:(

Buddha Fist's advice is precise.

[Green Cloud]

I think you guys are missing the point, but I do agree that wing chun might not offer enough excitement for a young teen. I also think that Judo Jiu jitsu and other sorts might not excite a youngster, practical yes but not fun.

When I was a kid I enjoyed MA that had lots of high kicks and jumps and so forth, I wasn't interested in standing still doing the siu lum tao or rolling around the floor with some sweaty dude.

greencloud.net