No Sex

[DarinHamel]

JS: As far as I know Taoists suggest that one should also stop having sex, otherwise the Small and Large Heavenly Circles will never open. Is that true for Bagua Neigong practice as well?

MR.MA: Yes, this is very important condition. My teacher told me that at the very beginning - if you want to develop true skill, you must be like a monk, living in celibacy. There is a story about "Coal" Ma, who was selling coal in Beijing's Caishikou. When he started to study Baguazhang from Dong Haichuan, he took his quilt and moved out to live in the shop. He lived there for three years and did not return home even once during that time.

Your body requires one week to recover after one sexual intercourse. i.e. come back to the condition before the intercourse. One hundred days is required to recover Original Qi (Yuan Qi) completely (i.e. recover to the condition before one had any sex). About three years is required to open Small Heavenly Circle.

JS: What about married people? I'm afraid people who have families will have difficulty with developing any Internal Skill then...

MR.MA: There is not a big problem with practice in Middle Basin (Zhong Pan), you can still get Internal Skill. However once you decide to practice Lower Basin you have to stop any sexual activity.

JS: What if one decides to practice in Lower Basin without fulfilling that requirement?

MR.MA: You will only hurt yourself. Lower Basin is a very demanding practice for the body and it will not be able to endure it. During Lower Basin practice you have to eat well and have good rest. It is like having a bank account. If you draw 1 million dollars from it and then transfer 1 million back it is OK. If you transfer 1 million and one dollar, you will have little saving - surplus energy. However if you transfer only 990 thousand, you will be in dept - your body will not be able to recover from the effort. In this way although your muscles may get stronger, your internal strength, internal potential, will decrease. This phenomena can be easily recognized by hearing one's voice - weak voice, neither loud nor clear, sometimes accompanied by coughing is the symptom of low energy level. Lower Basin method is most suitable for young, unmarried people. Otherwise you have to make the decision to become like a monk for three years...

JS: We were talking about Small Heavenly Circle. What about the Large Heavenly Circle (Da Zhou Tian)?

MR.MA: Once the Small Circle is opened, the Large will open naturally. There is a saying "Small Achievement comes in three years, Big Achievement - in ten years" (Xiaocheng San Nian Dacheng Shi Nian). One has to live in celibacy for at least six years to achieve true skill. Once the skill comes out, you still have to limit the number of sexual intercourses. Two, three times a week will ruin your skill completely. Once every two, three months is not a big problem.

JS: What do you mean by ruining the skill?

MR.MA: Your legs and waist (lower back) will lose the flexibility and strength. There are many martial arts practitioners who had remarkable skill in youth but when older they could hardly walk. This was caused by excessive sex. One of my teachers, Guo Gumin, was never married. When I started Bagua practice in 1961, for six years I was practically living in celibacy as well. At 5:00PM I was coming back home from work, ate dinner, and immediately went to practice. I was coming back at 1:00AM, after 6-7 hours of practice. Everyday, without even one day of rest.

[DarinHamel]

From here.

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/bagua/machuanxu.html

[PlumDragon]

That was a very good article. Thanks for sharing!

[Scott R. Brown]

It never ceases to amaze me how individuals who consider themselves Taoists will follow archaic superstition which clearly goes against the principles of Tao. Sexual relations are a normal and NECESSARY function of life that is part of the inherent nature of humans. One CANNOT live in accord with Tao if they go against their own nature. Abstention from sex to preserve or promote Chi development is a superstitious view that has no truth in reality!

The article cited has been addressed in the past. The following are some comments I previously made regarding sexual activity:

Repeated research demonstrates that sexual activity prior to athletic activity IMPROVES performance.

Some may argue that this does not apply to internal Chi development. They argue that sexual activity inhibits Chi flow. This limited view is in conflict with the Principles of Tao. It is based upon a misunderstanding of Tao. In fact healthy sexual activity promotes healthy Chi development and preservation!

If our purpose is to bring ourselves into accord with Tao and if we accept that being in accord with Tao is to live a natural life in balance with all things and in accord with the principles of Tao, then we must accept that part of a normal, natural human life is sexual activity. Therefore, to not recognize and accept our normal sexual needs is to be out of accord with Tao and thus out of balance. One cannot properly harmonize their Chi if they are out of balance. The more balanced our life the more easily Chi is developed and stored. To fight or inhibit normal, balanced sexual activity is to create conflict within our nature and we become OUT of accord with Tao; when we are out of balance Chi CANNOT flow unimpeded.

One may ask, then how did people accomplish such feats through abstention? Well first, who is to say they wouldn’t have developed faster, more effectively and more comprehensively had they lived a life more in accord with Tao? Secondly, it isn’t necessary to abstain from sexual activity or engage in sexual activity. Neither is what develops Chi; it is mental concentration in accordance with the elimination of impediments to the free flow of Chi. When we deny our normal human needs we create blockages that impede the free flow of Chi. By fulfilling normal sexual needs we reduce any possible preoccupation that may occur and thus the impediments.

Lastly, Chinese culture is not the only culture to have perceived and utilize the functions of Chi. Many “primitive” or nature based religions have a similar concept of Chi. Not all of them share the view of sexual abstention. In my younger days I was an apprentice for some time to an American Indian Medicine man. He was very familiar with the “Universal Energy” and he taught that sexual activity was one method that would help to balance and channel this energy properly. This teaching is in agreement with a proper understanding of Taoist principles, not as they are taught by some, but as they actually are! A balanced life neither excessively pursues nor runs away from natural human needs and functions. They are kept in their proper balance according to the example illustrated by Yin-Yang.

Sexual activity is normal and healthy. It is excess or paucity that need be avoided. Sexual activity stimulates the parasympathetic nervous system which is what causes the sense of loss or relaxation associated with the presumed loss of Chi. It is not vitality that is lost as a consequence of sexual activity it is a state of relaxation that is gained. This state of relaxation is a healthful and necessary condition that stimulates specific biological functions. By changing ones perspective one will perceive that their glass is not half empty, but is half full. We have not lost vitality we have gained a beneficial and healthful period of relaxation. The parasympathetic system promotes energy conservation by slowing the heart rate and increases intestinal and glandular activity. The Ancients confused the sense of relaxation with a loss of vitality. To continue to do so today is foolishness!

We must remember that just because a principle or activity was adhered to in the past does not mean it is necessarily a true, healthy or beneficial practice. Ancient Taoists fed themselves mercury pills in an effort to promote longer life. Mercury is a deadly poison, but was promoted as a life sustaining substance. Is anyone willing to ingest mercury knowing that it will damage their brain and nervous system, just because the ancient Taoists said we should? If a person is willing to follow ancient Taoist sexual abstention practices why not follow the practice of mercury ingestion as well? How can we say the ancient Taoists are incorrect in one area, but correct in another without questioning everything they taught? Since they have been proven to be wrong in one area we must question everything they have taught when it does not come into accord with simple reason and the observable processes of Tao. The Ancient Taoists were not the best and final word on Tao or Chi cultivation. They were men exploring and learning about the processes of Tao just as we do today. Their teachings are meant to be guides to aide us in bringing ourselves into accord with Tao, but they are NOT the final word, Tao is!

[DarinHamel]

In my experience sexual essence is transformed into Chi and if you lose it that retards the growth of chi. The ancient Taoist texts say abstain, my Church says abstain for the full flowering of the mystical life and my personal experience says abstain

During meditation I have felt the perineum pumping like I am ejaculating but without emission. With that a rush of energy would flow up my spine. Upon entering my head it would roar like Niagra Falls inside my head and blazing white light would appear before my inner vision.

Now this was years ago in the early 90's when my practice was all about turning essence into chi. When I would lose my essence through a wet dream or self-abuse the light would not appear and the pain in my testicles would be extreme. When I had conserved the light would happen. The light means essence is becoming chi. I am sorry if others havent experienced this but I have. I have also found many others who have. The Ancient texts are clear on this.

Ancient alcemists saying: Nature unaided fails.

[Scott R. Brown]

In my experience sexual essence is transformed into Chi and if you lose it that retards the growth of chi. The ancient Taoist texts say abstain, my Church says abstain for the full flowering of the mystical life and my personal experience says abstain

During meditation I have felt the perineum pumping like I am ejaculating but without emission. With that a rush of energy would flow up my spine. Upon entering my head it would roar like Niagra Falls inside my head and blazing white light would appear before my inner vision.

Now this was years ago in the early 90's when my practice was all about turning essence into chi. When I would lose my essence through a wet dream or self-abuse the light would not appear and the pain in my testicles would be extreme. When I had conserved the light would happen. The light means essence is becoming chi. I am sorry if others havent experienced this but I have. I have also found many others who have. The Ancient texts are clear on this.

Hi DarinHamel,

Feel free to limit your experiences. That is your choice and the benefits and deficits are yours to enjoy. Your statements make it clear they have worked for you, however I can drive a nail with a wrench too, but it is less efficient than when using a hammer.

The ancient alchemical Taoists and your Church are wrong. This has been demonstrated using scientific facts and simple reasoning. Their views do not follow the simplest most basic principles of Tao. Which are, living a “balanced” life according to “ones nature” in accord with the principles of Tao.

Your Church also has problems with pedophilia! Why do you think that is? Perhaps because they force priests to deny their natural, normal, healthy human sexuality!! If you deny your nature you will reap the consequences of that denial. When a priest is forced to deny his nature he carries multiple burdens. The first is his struggle to suppress healthy normal biological and psychological needs. The second is the unnecessary guilt that is a consequence of his inability to suppress his normal needs. The third is consequences of the harm he does to others and himself when he molests the innocent. These burdens may be avoided by simply allowing priests to follow their normal human natures. The Hebrews understood this that is why rabbis are required to marry and beget children.

When it comes to mystical experiences, they occur whether one is celibate or not. Your experiences will follow your expectation. If you proceeded to pursue your mystical experiences while engaging in normal sexual relations with the purpose to demonstrate the ancients are incorrect, you would discover that they are incorrect. You would discover that sexual relations have nothing to do with mystical experience; they have nothing to do with Chi or its cultivation. Mystical experience/Realization is about developing/cultivating the ability to perceive reality beyond the illusion of the material dualistic system. This is a state of mind, not a state of body!

A healthy body is not even necessary! These experiences are available to anyone who takes the time and makes the effort regardless of the body’s physical condition. You are depending upon sources from a time period and cultural perspective that was uninformed and ignorant of many things. (Remember the mercury pills?) We don’t follow much of anything and don’t believe much of anything they believed and thought 2,000 years ago, but we will believe the ancients on this? As I stated before, if you trust their judgment so much go ahead and take your mercury pills! Let’s see what happens!

At some point you must learn to think for yourself. These rules you follow may appear to be beneficial for you, but they are not in accord with the principles of Tao, and they are not healthy. Since they do not follow the principles of Tao they are less beneficial than following principles that will bring you into accord with Tao. As I previously pointed out, I can drive a nail with a wrench, but it is less efficient than when using a hammer.

Ancient alcemists saying: Nature unaided fails.

This is incorrect! Nature requires NO assistance. Just as water will find its own level if left alone to follow its own nature, so will a human's nature find its own balance if left alone to follow its own nature. The individuals who wrote that statement may have called themselves Taoists or may have been called Taoists by others, but they were not following the principles of Tao and were therefore not in accord with Tao!

[Judge Pen]

By deeming this rule as absolute you are limiting yourself.

And, by my understanding, the small circle of heaven is a natural pathway which the qi travels daily. You can impede it, slow it down, speed it up, etc. but the qi will continue to move at its own pace if left alone.

[DarinHamel]

Scott, you see me as limited. I see you as limited. Neither of us will know who is right until one of us become immortal. Immortality is the experience I seek. The rest are just sign posts along the way.

Good luck with the path you have chosen.

[dwid]

Scott, you see me as limited. I see you as limited. Neither of us will know who is right until one of us become immortal. Immortality is the experience I seek. The rest are just sign posts along the way.

Good luck with the path you have chosen.

I'm curious, have you considered how you'll feel if you don't achieve immortality. I would think this is a pretty big risk if you're putting all your eggs in that basket, so to speak, and there's a pretty high probability you won't be living forever.

No offense meant, just wondering what your thought are on this.

[DarinHamel]

I'm curious, have you considered how you'll feel if you don't achieve immortality. I would think this is a pretty big risk if you're putting all your eggs in that basket, so to speak, and there's a pretty high probability you won't be living forever.

No offense meant, just wondering what your thought are on this.
Valid question. I would feel worse if I was married and didn't achieve it than if I never had sex and didn't.

It might be a personality quirk but I would rather die a loser and be laughed at by the whole world than not do everything to achieve something I think/feel is so important.

I am not as certain about my path as Scott is about his and the possibility is extremely remote to actually become immortal/ascend, but this has been a life long thing for me since I was a little kid and I heard of Enoch and Elijah ascending and not dying.

Nothing matters to me but this.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Darin,

There may be some confusion concerning what constitutes a limited view and what constitutes an unlimited view. Limited REQUIRES one to do A in order to attain B when A is not necessary. Limited states a particular path is the ONLY way to attain B, or it may state A is the BEST way to attain B when neither are so. Unlimited understands that A is but one of many tools used to attain B, but understands that A is not REQUIRED in order to attain B. Unlimited recognizes the Limited as a path with many inherent restrictions which must later be discarded and prefers the freedom of the Unlimited to the restrictions of the Limited.

Understanding and insight allow one to discern which principles are of greater benefit and which ones are of lesser benefit. To say that one MUST abstain from sexual activity in order to gain spiritual insight/immortality is a statement of limitation and a false statement. To say one may engage in sexual activity and still gain spiritual insight/immortality is a statement of freedom, one that reduces limitation and is a true statement. Unlimited allows for greater choices, Limited sets unreasonable and un-necessary boundaries.

I am not seeking to attain immortality because I understand I am already immortal. There is nothing for me to attain because immortality is inherent within my being. Since I accept my immortality as inherent within my being I have no need to pursue un-natural and un-necessary activities to ensure it. This understanding results in freedom, not limitation. I do not live in fear that I may not continue following death. One who pursues immortality is doing so out of fear their existence will end. This is Limitation resulting from erroneous views. Erroneous views lead to limitation, correct views lead to freedom.

Inherently all roads lead to Rome, but not all routes are of equal value. Some routes are short and direct, some are scenic and circuitous, others are treacherous and lead to distractions that may impede or slow ones eventual arrival. We each make our own choice as to the route we wish to take and we will each reap the rewards or the detrimental and/or un-necessary consequences provided by that route.

Spiritual insight is a state of being, a state of mind. Performing physical actions do not lead to spiritual insight; perceiving directly with the mind does. Seeing and feeling things move up and down your spine and out the top of your head means nothing if these experiences do not result in deeper insight and understanding. Following precise rules and regulations pertaining to actions and activities, that is, restrictions, do not lead one to freedom. That is the same thing as saying freedom comes from restricting freedom. This is foolishness!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Scott: Excellent discourse.. Now, i have a suggestion.. Copyright this stuff, compile your posts into a book and retire.. you have shared enough wisdom in this forum to create quite a handy piece of usable literature..

Scott's descriptions are consistent with basic Tao principles.. much of the reference to abstinence is from people trying to contrive an agenda for immortallity.. and, as Scott says, we are already immortal.. awareness is the variable..

Be well..

[DarinHamel]

Scott, like I said before you are way smarter than me. There is no way I can out argue you. But your version of what you seem to think immortality is not my definition of immortality.

Like I said before, in the end, we'll see. I wish you good luck with your path.

[mantis108]

I wonder if you are aware that Dong Haichuan, the founder of Bagua Zhang, was an eunuch. One could imagine the suffering that he must have endured both physcically, mentally and emotionally. We also have to wonder without the "organ" that produce sperm where would his Qi came from?

In all fairness, I have tried the restrain from sex for a 100 days deal when I was first taught the Wu style Neigong. It did delivery what it promised - a belly that's like steel rapped in cotton. Now, I didn't go any further than that step due to life style choices. So the abstain from sex thing is not without merit.

I am more or less on the same line with Scott. So I will go with don't focus on the finger pointing to the moon advice. The 100 days thing or even the "road signs" is more or less a trial or initiation if you will. It's meant to set you on your jounery no more no less IMHO.

Organized religion like to hold spirituality as hostage with politics. There are plenty of tools and paths to get to the land of spirituality beware of people or organization that plays the political card. "Reality without ritual leads to the truth"(don't remember who said it first, sorry).

Mantis108

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Beginning Iron Palm training there is 120 days of "no sex.. no self-sex".. and, yes, there is a noticable "fire".. and, together with the herbs, there is a unique tissue transformation of the hands.. (don't go there :eek: )...

Further research and training has led me to the Taoist disciplines of sex without external emmission.. the sensations are exactly the same only no loss.. unfortunately, i don't have such control while i sleep :o ... but, the effects are observable by both myself and my partner.. endurance is beneficial in so many ways...

Be well...

[neilhytholt]

Greetings..

Scott: Excellent discourse.. Now, i have a suggestion.. Copyright this stuff, compile your posts into a book and retire.. you have shared enough wisdom in this forum to create quite a handy piece of usable literature..

Scott's descriptions are consistent with basic Tao principles.. much of the reference to abstinence is from people trying to contrive an agenda for immortallity.. and, as Scott says, we are already immortal.. awareness is the variable..

Be well..

I am not discussing religion or politics anymore. But right now I am literally biting my tongue.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Good control, Neil.. good discipline.. as Dirty Harry said, "i like a man that knows his limitations".. ;)

Be well..

[neilhytholt]

Greetings..

Good control, Neil.. good discipline.. as Dirty Harry said, "i like a man that knows his limitations".. ;)

Be well..

I think you need to take that 'be well' out of your tagline, because from your comments it's obvious you don't mean it.

[DarinHamel]

I have always looked at the people who say sex doesnt matter in a spiritual practice like those black belts with big bellies who say that being fat doesnt matter, or the yogaic pranayama instructor that smokes 2 packs a day. Pointless to debate.

The debate that can be debated is not the real debate?

[DarinHamel]

Ok, that last one was harsh. I'll leave it because its really what I think sometimes.

But I do wonder also if you are right Scott. What if I have entered the darkside? Perhaps those who do achieve physical immortality are going against the natural order of things and are therefore wrong.

All things in the natural world live and die? So is going the way of Enoch or Elijah evil?

Is there a "golden mean" in these things?

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi TaiChiBob.

Thank you for the encouragement. I am doing just that. The tentative title is “The Tao of Tao”. I am not into self-promotion so if and when it gets published I will PM you rather than post it on the BB.

Hi neilhytholt,

I think you need to take that 'be well' out of your tagline, because from your comments it's obvious you don't mean it.

You are assuming TaiChiBob is being snide and not well meaning! Perhaps your own snide attitude colors your perceptions. Perhaps you are projecting your own intentions on to someone else.

On the other hand, you have a decidedly poor/rude attitude! It oozes from most of your posts! One cannot expect others to be repeatedly cordial when your sour attitude asks for a firm response. I wish my children well, but that does not mean I will tolerate rude or inappropriate behavior from them. Indeed I scold them in order to guide them to more appropriate behavior. You are asking others to accept your attitude, but appear unwilling to accept the response your attitude encourages. Your initial post today was meant to be derogatory; you received a rather clever and humorous response in return. It appears that TaiChiBob’s general rule is to apply the principles of Tai Chi in his daily life. This is what motivates him to respond in such a pleasant and good-natured manner. Some of us however, prefer the more direct approach. For example I would say: if you don’t want others to be derogatory to you, then do not behave derogatory yourself. I you don’t like being told that then go play somewhere else because you will continue to hear these types of responses when you behave this way!

I might add that I have tempered the tone of my direct manner because of the example set by TaiChiBob. A year ago I would have been much more terse!!


Hi Darin,

It might be beneficial for the discussion to explain your definition of immortality. If someone is confused about your meaning it seems incumbent that you make the effort to clear up the misunderstanding.

You previously stated your intention is to become immortal/ascend. Your means to attain this is through a formalized ritual which requires celibacy. I am stating immortality/ascension does not require a formalize ritual or celibacy to be accomplished, that is all. The effects you experience do not seem to have provided you with any greater insight than anyone else who does not practice the rituals you adhere too. That is because effects, powers, abilities, etc. do not bestow insight, they are possible side effects of ascension not signs that it has occurred.

It is not my intention to dissuade you from the choices you are making. I have made no claims celibacy is not a means to an end. I have merely stated celibacy is not necessary! To you it is a useful expedient. To me it is a waste of time and ignores our humanness.

Regardless, if one is not gaining maturity, understanding and insight from their practice what they have gained is of little value.

I would not consider your path leaning to the darkside. It is clear your intention is good and your attitude hopeful. I do not percieve you behaving in manners that indicate any evil intention. You are open to discussing your path with others who disagree with you. This is a sign of willingness to grow. You are reasonable in your discussion even when you encounter criticism. This is not easy for many to endure with grace. Criticism can be difficult because many have an ego investment/attachment to the path they adhere too. When this occurs the attachment to their chosen path forms a part of their self-definition, their core identity. Then when their path is criticized they may perceive it as a criticism of themselves. Sort of like, “To criticize my path is to criticize me!” This makes growing beyond our attachments difficult because to change involves a psychological death to our old ways of perceiving ourselves. Growth involves change and change can be like a little death. We die to our old way of looking at things, only to be reborn to a new realization. This mini-death is a death to the ego attachment we had to our old way of looking at things.

This internal metaphorical death is symbolically illustrated in many mythological tales. It represents a death to the old self, the old ego attachments, and a rebirth to a new self, to new realizations. These new realizations bring greater freedom, not less. St. Paul said, all things are legal for me, but not all things are expedient, not all things are edifying. He understood he could basically do whatever he wanted. He was not ruled by laws and restrictions. This is because he understood that ascension is not based upon actions, but is a state of being, a state of mind. He chose the actions he would perform according to his intentions or end purpose. He chose not to engage in many behaviors because he recognized that as a leader of spiritual children to behave in manners that would be confusing to the flock would lead to misunderstanding and impede the growth of those he sought to guide. So while his actions were a choice based upon specific intentions he also recognized he could inherently do whatever he wanted without jeopardizing his salvation.

Change/growth can be very scary. It leads us to unknown territory, but it is this unknown territory that provides us with the rewards/benefits we seek.

To me it is the goal that is important. The means we use to get there are merely useful expedients! They are useful as long as we perceive progress, but we should try to avoid clinging to our method. Clinging binds us to ignorance and encourages erroneous views. At some point our progress will be retarded if we continue to cling to methods that no longer serve our purpose. That is not to say we shouldn’t give our method of choice our full dedication, but we must not forget that no matter which method we follow it is only ONE means to an end. We must be willing to discard whatever method we adhere to for the benefit of the ultimate goal. In other words we should not make the method we use more important than the goal we seek.

As always, I fully enjoy our discussions and I am happy to continue or not as you please!

[neilhytholt]

Mr. Scott,

Yes, I do not pretend to be nice. I do not hide mean-ness behind a facade of nice-ness.

Does that make me mean? What is sickening is people who pretend to be nice and are really mean. In the West we call them wolves in sheep's clothing. Somebody told me that in China they call them Smiling Tigers.

Edit.

I do not talk about religion or politics anymore.

But what else is sicking is people who hide their ignorance behind words, and those who teach topics they do not really know.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Neil,

Mr. Scott,

Yes, I do not pretend to be nice. I do not hide mean-ness behind a facade of nice-ness.

Does that make me mean? What is sickening is people who pretend to be nice and are really mean. In the West we call them wolves in sheep's clothing. Somebody told me that in China they call them Smiling Tigers.

There is a difference between pretending to be nice and using humor or communicating ones opinion with decorum and common courtesy!

What you perceive to be hypocrisy is more likely a projection of your own idiosyncrasies/issues (i.e. suspicions of the REAL intent of others) and not in fact false kindness!


I do not talk about religion or politics anymore.

But what else is sicking is people who hide their ignorance behind words, and those who teach topics they do not really know.

You may not choose to discuss politic or religion, but you seem to feel free to criticize the comments of others without giving rational argument for you opinion. This makes your opinion worthless for the purposes of discussion. It leads one to conclude you may not have valid reasons for you views. Any one can criticize the ideas and comments of others and make specious claims. This takes no intellect or knowledge of the topic discussed. If your criticism provides no evidence it has no value in the discussion and there is no reason to offer it other than to stroke your own ego.

While I support your right to stroke your own ego, if you interpose your meaningless and valueless comments into a REAL discussion, and receive criticism in return, than you have received the attention and recognition you are striving to gain albeit negative attention! Children strive to get attention, if they cannot get it by behaving with courtesy, then they will strive to get it by behaving poorly. You repeatedly behave poorly!

Be Well!!:)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

neilhytholt: Regardless of our differing perspectives, regardless of our empassioned or emotional banter.. i do sincerely wish you well.. i can only think of 2 times i haven't used that "tag" and it was intentional.. not that i didn't wish the poster well, but that they didn't really deserve it... I hold no ill feelings toward you at all.. it is through dialogue like ours that i gain insights into myself, into the depths of my own belief system.. i welcome challenges to my perspectives, and.. as many here will confirm, i am also willing to change my perspectives based on superior evidence..

So, in all sincerity... Be well.. enjoy the journey, because, in the words of Max Ehrmann, "for all its sham and drudgery, the world is still a beautiful place"..

Sincerely,
Bob Waers

[DarinHamel]

"The Tao of Tao"? If it is half as good as your posts I would buy it for myself and get a copy for my friends too. Your not just full of great Taoist insight but your writing style is very beautiful (and ego-non-threatening thank God).

Last year I came to the conclusion that I needed to "let go" of my need to seek a formula for immortality/ascension and to just "be" and it would happen naturally if my intention was to completely follow the Tao. Sounds like what your saying doesn't it?

Now I think I am just trying to figure out how to let go of "me". I have purged my possessions several times in my life so I could start over. I even went homeless once trying to follow the example of the Taoists masters. Perhaps I am at that point again?

What I need to purge this time is not my possessions, friendships or anything tangible. I need to purge something deeper and it seems it can't be contrived or forced. It needs to happen naturally and I don't trust "natually".

So whats your take on this? Wu Wei? I feel the intense need to "do" something but my personal insight tells me to stop "doing" and to just "be". I may have just worn out my """ key.

My idea of immortality btw is physical not-dying until your body transforms into pure energy and we ascend to the higher non-physical realms.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Scott: Very humble thanks <bows>

Darin: My idea of immortality btw is physical not-dying until your body transforms into pure energy and we ascend to the higher non-physical realms.Try reading "Chronicles of Tao, by Deng Ming-Dao.. it contains a beautiful description of discarding the flesh at the appropriate time.. a conscious transition with spirit intact.. Consistent with my mentor's teachings, too..

One of my most favorite quotes.. "we are traveling to where we have always been, from ignorance to enlightenment.. awareness is the vehicle".. i still marvel at the wisdom of those words... there's nothing to "do", except see clearly..

Be well...

[Red Wind Fist]

as far as I know, in my studies of the Tao, I was lead to believe that sex would improve your performance. Hence the positions that help boost chi during sex, which mimick the indian kama sutra. I always feel more calm and incontrol when I spar or fight after I've had sex. I feel my palms and spine more open to chi afterwards too. But on a personal level, if it came down to martial arts and sex...SEX. Call me weak or what ever you want, but while your sitting in meditation all ****ed off, I'm giving my lady the business and feeling great. Thats ultimately what its all about I suppose.:p
I like to balance out sex with mediation and breating positions afterwards. For me I feel a greater flow of chi. but hey, we all have our methods.

[Red Wind Fist]

oh wow, I just read my own post. It censored the word ****ed off. hey, can I say **** too? :D

[DarinHamel]

oh wow, I just read my own post. It censored the word ****ed off. hey, can I say **** too? :D
Thanks for not cussing. After eight years in the Army I used to cuss alot and it has taken me years to break that habit. Even seeing it in writing will put it back in my head and I will accidentally cuss. Its like smoking, you can quit but its is always inside you wanting to start again.

[18elders]

I know many people who did the iron palm training and had sex. They can break as well as the ones who say they didn't have sex.
Sex is a natural instinct, i don't think it is good to suppress a natural thing.
In nature, the strong are the ones having the sex.

[DarinHamel]

I know many people who did the iron palm training and had sex. They can break as well as the ones who say they didn't have sex.
Sex is a natural instinct, i don't think it is good to suppress a natural thing.
In nature, the strong are the ones having the sex.
When I was young I could do the morning runs in the Army after a night of drinking, less than an hour sleep and smoke just before the run. At the time I would have sworn it didn't matter and at the time I was right. You don't see the effects until later, with maturity.

Now I dont smoke, dont drink and live on a diet of salads, fish, fruits, nuts and running is starting to get hard and because of the smoking getting air is hard for me when the temp. gets below 30 degrees, plus I am nearing 40.

Perhaps sex is in the same category for spirituality as smoking is for running. You dont notice the effects until it is too late.

[neilhytholt]

Hi Neil,

You may not choose to discuss politic or religion, but you seem to feel free to criticize the comments of others without giving rational argument for you opinion. This makes your opinion worthless for the purposes of discussion. It leads one to conclude you may not have valid reasons for you views. Any one can criticize the ideas and comments of others and make specious claims. This takes no intellect or knowledge of the topic discussed. If your criticism provides no evidence it has no value in the discussion and there is no reason to offer it other than to stroke your own ego.

While I support your right to stroke your own ego, if you interpose your meaningless and valueless comments into a REAL discussion, and receive criticism in return, than you have received the attention and recognition you are striving to gain albeit negative attention! Children strive to get attention, if they cannot get it by behaving with courtesy, then they will strive to get it by behaving poorly. You repeatedly behave poorly!

Be Well!!:)

It's not stroking my own ego. In case you didn't notice you tend to post a lot of words and is not that clamoring for attention as well?

At any rate, for once I think I agree with you, you are right, if I do not plan on contributing I shouldn't read this or post anything.

[DarinHamel]

Originally Posted by 18elders
I know many people who did the iron palm training and had sex. They can break as well as the ones who say they didn't have sex.
Sex is a natural instinct, i don't think it is good to suppress a natural thing.
In nature, the strong are the ones having the sex.

Lets concentrate on that last statement. If you are going to justify you actions by the natural world then in nature the strong ones also get replaced nearly every year by younger, stronger ones. The stronger the male the larger the harem too. Sex like that may follow the natural order of animals but there may be a higher calling particular to humans.

Some may choose to seek as many mates as possible and say its just being human, but in reality that resembles animal behavior and I think humans can rise above our animal side to become something more. Monogamy is one example but perhaps denying the entire impulse to mate altogether opens us to a whole new vista of super-natural experience rather than being caught in natual experience.

neilhytholt-Writing alot is also a sign of elegant thought. Some say the art of writing letters has become lost because of the internet. I think people like Scott who write longer messages show that it hasn't.

[neilhytholt]

neilhytholt-Writing alot is also a sign of elegant thought. Some say the art of writing letters has become lost because of the internet. I think people like Scott who write longer messages show that it hasn't.

Obviously everybody likes Scott. Scott wins the popularity contest! Good for Scott!

[Judge Pen]

Hi TaiChiBob.

Thank you for the encouragement. I am doing just that. The tentative title is “The Tao of Tao”. I am not into self-promotion so if and when it gets published I will PM you rather than post it on the BB.


PM me too Scott. I'm reading tao te ching right now and I can see its sayings peppering your posts on this subject. But I think the core idea is essential: to try to acheive immortality by defining a path you must follow is to lose your way.

[18elders]

Originally Posted by DarinHamel

Now I dont smoke, dont drink and live on a diet of salads, fish, fruits, nuts and running is starting to get hard and because of the smoking getting air is hard for me when the temp. gets below 30 degrees, plus I am nearing 40.

___________

It's natural to slow down as one ages and also the strong will not be the strongest as time goes on, not because they are having sex.
Sex is part of life, if you think refraining from it will make you have a super natural experience, best of luck.

[DarinHamel]

Originally Posted by DarinHamel

Now I dont smoke, dont drink and live on a diet of salads, fish, fruits, nuts and running is starting to get hard and because of the smoking getting air is hard for me when the temp. gets below 30 degrees, plus I am nearing 40.

___________

It's natural to slow down as one ages and also the strong will not be the strongest as time goes on, not because they are having sex.
Sex is part of life, if you think refraining from it will make you have a super natural experience, best of luck.
Thank you.

[Scott R. Brown]

Wow!! Go to sleep for 8 hours and you have a lot of catching up to do, LOL!!

Hi TaiChiBob,

Humble Bow Returned my friend!!!
_____

Hi Darin,

I will respond to your post when I have a bit more time. It could be tomorrow. Don’t feel bad about all the “”””” I have been good naturedly criticized for using too many !!!!!!! When someone notes my liberal use of exclamation points I respond: Here take some if you need them I have plenty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D
_____

Hi Judge Pen,

Ok, I better make a list, LOL!!

1) TaiChiBob
2) Darin
3) Judge Pen
_____

Hi Neil,

It’s not how long it takes to say something that has significance. It is what you say, how you say it, and why you say it that has meaning. My style is to use reasoned argument and metaphor to explain difficult topics. Both require time and space to use effectively. You may have noticed I also try to explain some things from various perspectives. This is because when discussing amorphous and/or complicated topics they are more easily understood when illustrated from different perspectives.

I am well aware not everyone appreciates my writing style. I am also aware that some will criticize my writing style simply because they do not like my views but cannot effectively argue against them or perhaps they do not wish to take the time to argue against them. I respond to these people or not as I feel inclined on a case by case basis. I consider it part of my MA training! I am not offended if someone doesn’t like my style or what I have to say. If everyone thought the way I do it would be a very boring world that would look very much like Nazi Germany. IMHO we all have something to offer to the lives of those around us, even those with a generally negative outlook.

We all have our own worldview. Our worldview helps define our life and give it meaning for us. I try to respect each person’s personal worldview even if I disagree with it and regardless of whether they respect mine or not!

Be Well!;)

[Nexus]

It is not new for man to look to another man for guidance on how he should conduct his life. For each of us, the choices we're presented with create cause for sacrifice of other choices if we go down a certain path.

Allow for me to ask a few thought provoking questions:

What is good for the goose is not always good for the gander.

What will bring about the true prosperity in your life?

Does abstaining or partaking in sex make a man or woman free, to have freedom, to be free in mind and body?

Should ones life revolve around sex? We are certainly culturally bound by it, biologically and instinctively pulled towards it and surrounded by it in the media and in conventional circumstance. Is it a matter of philosophy or religion to decide? Is there a difference between the two. Or, perhaps it is neither, but instead simply a matter of oneself? In the end, the individual makes the decision anyways, or do they?

This point of this spirals back to my words on freedom. Having true freedom is much like the wind choosing to blow one direction in one moment and another the next. It is not in my infinite wisdom to tell you right or wrong in all circumstances. It has been my experience that what is correct in one circumstance is often incorrect in another. We must decide using our common sense, logic and heart what is good for the goose and when necessary, good for the gander.

Flock you all. (couldn't resist the pun, no offense =)

[Scott R. Brown]

"The Tao of Tao"? If it is half as good as your posts I would buy it for myself and get a copy for my friends too. Your not just full of great Taoist insight but your writing style is very beautiful (and ego-non-threatening thank God).

Last year I came to the conclusion that I needed to "let go" of my need to seek a formula for immortality/ascension and to just "be" and it would happen naturally if my intention was to completely follow the Tao. Sounds like what your saying doesn't it?

Now I think I am just trying to figure out how to let go of "me". I have purged my possessions several times in my life so I could start over. I even went homeless once trying to follow the example of the Taoists masters. Perhaps I am at that point again?

What I need to purge this time is not my possessions, friendships or anything tangible. I need to purge something deeper and it seems it can't be contrived or forced. It needs to happen naturally and I don't trust "natually".

So whats your take on this? Wu Wei? I feel the intense need to "do" something but my personal insight tells me to stop "doing" and to just "be".

Hi Darin,

Thank you for the kind words and encouragement. I appreciate your comment about my writing style; I never knew I had a writing style and I am happy it is pleasing for some people to read!
_____

Yes, it does sound very much like my view. This predicament is very nicely illustrated by the axioms, “The hurrier I go, the behinder I get!” and “The harder I try, the harder it gets!” I think the difficulty many of us have is determining how to intend a purpose without actually trying so hard we make it more difficult. This “intention without trying (forcing)”, wu-wei, is a state of mind, not an action we perform. It is the manner in which we use our mind that creates the condition of wu-wei or perhaps it is more accurate to say allows it to occur spontaneously!

The easiest way I have come up with so far to describe it is what I learned in basic lifeguarding when I was 15. When caught in a river or fast moving current, do not fight against the current, do not swim across the current! Flow with the current and gently angle yourself towards the bank. For us to apply this principle to the art of “Flowing with Tao” we must first get a “feel” for the process of Tao. This is similar to discerning which direction the current is flowing when in a river. In order to accommodate ourselves to the current we must first perceive which direction it is flowing. To do this in our lives we must learn to sense through feel and trial and error how to do it. It isn’t something that can be taught, it has to be learned on our own by searching and getting the feel for it. It is similar to learning to swim. Someone can show you how to do the movements, you can read the Tao Te Ching or use other forms of guidance, but you must apply the principles yourself to get the feel for the water on your own. So when learning to swim, you are provided with the information by the instructor, but the learning is done when you are in the water and actually attempting to practice the movements on your own.

Once we get the feel for it then practice is all it takes.

To assist us we may apply a few other principles. These are the principles of cultivation. This is not new information I am sure you have heard it before, but I will share a metaphor I use to explain it.

Our mind, our life, our character, our spiritual insight and growth, etc. are like plants growing in a garden. We cannot MAKE the plants grow just as we cannot force ourselves to grow. But we CAN create an environment that encourages growth to occur.

Each kind of plant has its own process for growth. We must accommodate our garden to the needs of the plant if we want the plant to grow healthy and strong. If I have a plant that requires more sun than other plants it is best for the plant to grow where there is more sunlight. If another plant requires more water than other plants then I must provide it with more water, etc. By setting up our garden according to the needs and characteristics of each plant they will to grow according to their own natures. We do not and cannot force the plants to grow. They will only grow according to their own nature. All we can do is create the best environment for the plants to grow and then allow them respond in the fullness of time according to their own natures. This is the wu-wei and tzu-jan of plants. The gardener creates a healthy environment for growth to take place and the plants respond according to their own nature.

So when it comes to our personal growth, we cannot force it to occur. There appears to be a specific process that occurs and there seems to be a relatively recognizable pattern to the growth. There is some difference between individuals because we are all different kinds of plants, so to speak. This is why there are so many different methods to achieve the same purpose. We each have our own personalities and our own inclinations, talents and skills. These influence the path, the tools, we will use to achieve our purpose. We may use different methods, but we will all follow a somewhat similar process and have similar weeds to remove. They may on the surface appear to be different kinds of weeds, but they are the same ones regardless of their outward appearance or the method we follow. The underlying process from method to method is pretty much the same, we all need water, sunshine and our garden needs tending, the soil aerated, fertilizer applied, weeds pulled, etc. But the growth will always occur according to our own natures in the fullness of time.

One thing that has a very large influence on our progress is emotional attachment. This can be an attachment to anything. It may be an attachment to the method we use or we may be emotionally attached to the goal, that is, trying so hard to make it happen that we actually impede our progress; or it may be another form of attachment. But mostly it is the attachment to our ego that creates the greatest impediment. Indeed all attachments are really just a form of ego attachment. Let us say the attachment to our ego is the root of all other attachments. They are really all the same attachment just dressed to look differently. There are a number of reasons we are attached to our ego. I don’t want to discuss them here. For now all we need understand is that it is attachment, or it is sometimes called “clinging”, that creates the largest hurdle to overcome or transcend or however one wishes to label it.

I prefer the word clinging at times because if we introspect into our minds we will notice that that is what it feels like inside our minds. It feels like we are holding on to something and we can't quite figure out how to let it go. We want to let it go, but some how we cling to it in a manner we cannot comprehend. If we could discover how we are clinging to it we think we could let it go, but since we can't discover how we cling, we become puzzled as to what to do. This is the goal then, to figure out how to release that which we are clinging too. It isn’t something that takes intellectual understanding to accomplish. There isn’t a specific series of actions put together in the correct order at the correct time that will make it happen. It is something that just occurs in the fullness of time. All we can do in the mean time is create a garden that will facilitate its occurrence and then allow the process to follow its own nature.
_____

To purge ourselves of possessions (I have done this myself in the past!) is merely a symbolic action we perform in an attempt to facilitate the release of our inner clinging. It is an outward representation of what we would like to occur inwardly and nothing more. The act itself does nothing; essentially it represents our inner desire for release. It is up to you to decide if you want to do it or not, but inherently all the action occurs within your mind, so while outward displays may make us feel better they do nothing inherently to modify our inner state of being.

So I agree with you, there is nothing outward that requires purging. All the action takes place internally within our minds. It is an act of release that we must “feel” how to do, but also it isn’t something we actually “DO”, it is something we “ALLOW” to happen, or perhaps we may say it occurs as a consequence of letting go!. We can't make it happen!!

While we are searching for the right “feel” of it, we can outwardly create a supportive environment (garden) to facilitate this result.

I emphasize that all I have just said is only one “metaphorical” manner of addressing this topic. Inherently there is nothing we need do and nothing actually occurs. The mirror was never dusty in the first place so there is nothing to clean. We already have what we seek, we just don’t realize it so we trick ourselves into playing a game in order to allow us to remember what we never really forgot. It sounds like gobble-de-goop, but there is truth in it! LOL!!

My idea of immortality btw is physical not-dying until your body transforms into pure energy and we ascend to the higher non-physical realms.

Technically speaking this is already our state of being, but in our condition of limited perception we don’t recognize it. So we search for and practice methods that encourage erroneous views that only reinforce the illusion. By convincing ourselves there is something to achieve we become preoccupied with the pursuit of something that already IS. What we need do is learn to recognize what already IS and not pursue an illusion!

As always, thank you for an interesting discussion!:)

[DarinHamel]

Technically speaking this is already our state of being, but in our condition of limited perception we don’t recognize it. So we search for and practice methods that encourage erroneous views that only reinforce the illusion. By convincing ourselves there is something to achieve we become preoccupied with the pursuit of something that already IS. What we need do is learn to recognize what already IS and not pursue an illusion!

Fact is, we are not. Can you discorperate at will? Can you walk through a wall? Can you fly? We cant do these things because we are physical. Our primary essence is energy, but we have a gross physical level that cannot in all honesty be ignored or "realized" away. In my opinion the physical body can be consciously evolved past itself, wherein there are real, substantial, measurable changes in the physical body while it happens.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Darin,

To walk through walls and discorporeate falls under the rubric of skills & abilities and while are related to ones state of mind have nothing to do with insight into being. One may acquire these abilities and yet have little or no spiritual maturity. I have had friends who traveled to India & state they have met individuals with powers and abilities who used them for manipulting others to gain personal power and status. As I previously mentioned I was personally associated with an American Indian Shaman who possessed little insight or maturity, but possessed powers and quite a number of abilities that I have personally witnessed. I would also direct you to the author Carlos Casteneda and his Don Juan series of books which he claims to be factual, although others doubt their veracity.

If you are seeking powers and abilities good for you, but I see it as pursuing illusion because they only have meaning on the physical plane of being and are not significnt abilities following death.

I would refer you to the boooks I have previously mentioned detailing research into life after death for plausible evidence to demonstrate my point.

[DarinHamel]

Hi Darin,

To walk through walls and discorporeate falls under the rubric of skills & abilities and while are related to ones state of mind have nothing to do with insight into being. One may acquire these abilities and yet have little or no spiritual maturity. I have had friends who traveled to India & state they have met individuals with powers and abilities who used them for manipulting others to gain personal power and status. As I previously mentioned I was personally associated with an American Indian Shaman who possessed little insight or maturity, but possessed powers and quite a number of abilities that I have personally witnessed. I would also direct you to the author Carlos Casteneda and his Don Juan series of books which he claims to be factual, although others doubt their veracity.

If you are seeking powers and abilities good for you, but I see it as pursuing illusion because they only have meaning on the physical plane of being and are not significnt abilities following death.

I would refer you to the boooks I have previously mentioned detailing research into life after death for plausible evidence to demonstrate my point.
I am not talking about skills or superpowers. I am talking about a state of being like Catholics talk about the glorified body where our bodies will be transformed into ones like Jesus had after the resurrection.

I equate enlightenment/immortality/ascension with having superpowers but I am not so dense to think those with superpowers are enlightened. A shaman could have superpowers as a skill but the enlightened have them as a natural outcome of realization. Sort of like the difference between Moses and the Egyptian magicians. Its like all taiji is qigong but not all qigong is taiji.

You said- Technically speaking this is already our state of being, but in our condition of limited perception we don’t recognize it. So we search for and practice methods that encourage erroneous views that only reinforce the illusion. By convincing ourselves there is something to achieve we become preoccupied with the pursuit of something that already IS. What we need do is learn to recognize what already IS and not pursue an illusion!

So once again, do you see that we are not already enlightened, immortal or ascended? Can you discorperate at will? Can you walk through a wall? Can you fly? We cant do these things because we are physical. Our primary essence is energy, but we have a gross physical level that cannot in all honesty be ignored or "realized" away. In my opinion the physical body can be consciously evolved past itself, wherein there are real, substantial, measurable changes in the physical body while it happens.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Darin,

No I cannot discorporeate at will etc. neither am in concerned about discorporeating at will. It is an ability and not directly related to realization. If I could do it I would not be too impressed with myself either. It is a child’s game when compared to realization. It is not an important ability to acquire. When one focuses on developing abilities or assigns the acquisition of abilities as a measure of advancement they are focusing on the leaves of the tree and not the root. The only true measure is do we realize or not. Anything else is merely a toy to play with or a distraction to lead us into erroneous views and attitudes that inhibit the end result.

[DarinHamel]

Hi Darin,

No I cannot discorporeate at will etc. neither am in concerned about discorporeating at will. It is an ability and not directly related to realization. If I could do it I would not be too impressed with myself either. It is a child’s game when compared to realization. It is not an important ability to acquire. When one focuses on developing abilities or assigns the acquisition of abilities as a measure of advancement they are focusing on the leaves of the tree and not the root. The only true measure is do we realize or not. Anything else is merely a toy to play with or a distraction to lead us into erroneous views and attitudes that inhibit the end result.
OK now were getting somewhere in our respective definitions of enlightenment. Do you believe a "realized" being can discorperate at will? Not whether they would or not but can they?

(This is like pulling teeth.)

[fa_jing]

"Give me immortality or give me death!"

Had a chuckle at that one, since if you don't get immortality you get death anyway, goes without saying....anyway carry on and good luck with your endeavours.

[Scott R. Brown]

(This is like pulling teeth.)

LOL!!;) Well, it is a matter of being specific. This is the first time you have been this specific about what you mean.

Do you believe a "realized" being can discorperate at will? Not whether they would or not but can they?

I don't know and I don't care. It is of no consequence to me because if it does occur it is a side effect and not the goal.

I do not consider the ability to discorporeate a measure of development. For at least two reasons:

1) Apparently there are those who can perform the same effect without significant maturity. Therefore, it cannot be an accurate measure of ones development.

2) It only has meaning on the physical plane! It is apparently common practice on the other side, as consistently cited by those who have performed research into life after death. This makes it nothing more than a skill. I understand you may say, ”Well, we don’t have a physical body on the other side.” But what is the value of discorporeating? It is to spontaneous disappear here and spontaneously re-appear, over there! This is apparently easily accomplished on the other side according to the research. To me this makes the ability, on the physical plane, nothing more than a toy and possibly a distraction if one becomes preoccupied with getting the toy and not winning the game!

Here is a metaphorical illustration of my point:

An Athlete concerns himself with winning the competition. Every part of his training is designed to assist him in his goal, which is to WIN!! He is only concerned with gaining abilities that will assist him in attaining his purpose. If it does not assist him he may perform the inconsequential activity as a form of recreation, but he will recognize it as un-necessary to attaining his goal. A powerlifter will not concern himself with having a superior VO2 max. This has a limited bearing on achieving his goal. In fact, too high of a VO2 max will inhibit the powerlifter from attaining his goal. That particular ability then becomes a detriment to his goal when it exceeds a certain level of development. A chess expert will have little interest in gaining superior strength for the purposes of his chess game because it has no bearing on his ability to win the game. A side effect of a water polo player’s training is superior aerobic ability, but the water polo player is not concerned with what his VO2 max measures he is concerned with winning the game. Elevated VO2 max is the side effect, winning is the goal! The lesson then is: Focus on winning the game and not the inconsequential side effects of the training.

[dwid]

2) It only has meaning on the physical plane! It is apparently common practice on the other side, as consistently cited by those who have performed research into life after death. This makes it nothing more than a skill. I understand you may say, ”Well, we don’t have a physical body on the other side.” But what is the value of discorporeating? It is to spontaneous disappear here and spontaneously re-appear, over there! This is apparently easily accomplished on the other side according to the research. To me this makes the ability, on the physical plane, nothing more than a toy and possibly a distraction if one becomes preoccupied with getting the toy and not winning the game!



Hi Scott,
I've noticed now that you've mentioned this "research" on a number of occasions. Being a onetime professional researcher in the social sciences and generally a critical consumer of research, I'm curious if you could reference legitimate scientific research in this regard. No offense intended, I've just never encountered anything in this area that had any academic rigor. A lot of anecdotal stuff, and stuff by neuroscience types who say they can recreate any of the supposed NDE type experiences by stimulating parts of the brain, but no serious studies supporting life after death, etc...

[DarinHamel]

Hi Scott,
I've noticed now that you've mentioned this "research" on a number of occasions. Being a onetime professional researcher in the social sciences and generally a critical consumer of research, I'm curious if you could reference legitimate scientific research in this regard. No offense intended, I've just never encountered anything in this area that had any academic rigor. A lot of anecdotal stuff, and stuff by neuroscience types who say they can recreate any of the supposed NDE type experiences by stimulating parts of the brain, but no serious studies supporting life after death, etc...
Speaking of researchers I too am one. I am a drug researcher for the Govt. Just saying...

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi dwid,

The legitimacy of research is pretty much in the eye of the beholder and I am well aware scientific organizations attempt to define what they consider legitimate research and acceptable evidence. I do not automatically accept the limitations on evidence that these organizations might seek to use as a definitions. Nearly everyone has had experiences that we consider REAL that some researchers might consider invalid evidence, yet we would not accept their negation of an experience we KNOW we had. I would not allow a researcher to define for me the taste of an orange, because I have tasted it for myself and would consider their disregard of my valid experience as foolishness.

Having said that, because of the nature of the topic there is some controversy as to the validity of the evidence. It is not a hard science, it is a social science and therefore the evidence is acquired through observational studies. Researchers gather information from various sources, collate and compare reports and then draw conclusions based upon the consistency of the reports over hundreds or thousands of incidences. In this field of study there can be no absolute evidence in the sense of consistently repeatable measurement with instrumentation, although there are some conducting studies on paranormal phenomena utilizing instruments of measurement. The evidence is based upon relatively similar reports repeated over time amongst individuals of different ages, educational levels, cultures and religions.

The researcher I have come across with the most impressive credentials regarding this field of study is Brian Weiss. The following is a short biography from his website:

A graduate of Columbia University and Yale Medical School, Brian L. Weiss M.D. is Chairman Emeritus of Psychiatry at the Mount Sinai Medical Center in Miami.

As a traditional psychotherapist, Dr. Brian Weiss was astonished and skeptical when one of his patients began recalling past-life traumas that seemed to hold the key to her recurring nightmares and anxiety attacks. His skepticism was eroded, however, when she began to channel messages from "the space between lives," which contained remarkable revelations about Dr. Weiss's family and his dead son. Using past-life therapy, he was able to cure the patient and embark on a new, more meaningful phase of his own career.

Brian Weiss, one of the first doctors to explore the past lives of his patients as a means of therapy, reveals how past and present lives can affect our future lives, and how our future lives can transform us in the here and now.

There are others, but Dr. Weiss is the one with the most traditional scientific background I have come across so far. He also discusses in one of his books his skepticism and how he stumbled upon the phenomena and how his research changed his view of life, death and reality.

Before anyone passes judgment on Dr. Weiss I recommend they read his works. He was very skeptical from the beginning having been trained in traditional scientific thought and practicing as a traditional psychotherapist.



The researcher who investigated reincarnation evidence I do not remember off hand. He was referenced in an interview I listened too a year or more ago. The researcher was identified as an Ivy League professor who interviewed children with remarkable memories of past lives all around the world. He did follow up research to verify their reports. Some of the things they recalled were events that occurred with the past life family members that few would know or recall had they not been present at the time of the original event. The research then tracked down the past life family members that were still alive and verified the information. If you are truly interested and this is not just a passing fancy I will make an effort to see if I can locate the source or the researcher and then get back to you.

[Scott R. Brown]

I don't know if this is the guy, but it would be a good start:

Dr. Ian Stevenson

http://www.childpastlives.org/stevenson.htm

[dwid]

Thanks Scott,

I'll take a look at the stuff you referenced. I'll admit I'm a skeptic by nature, which is not to say I'm closed-minded. I put a lot of stock in the scientific method, and unlike lots of people who use this as a rationale to not consider ideas outside of their biases or whatever, I look at it as a tool for examining evidence and being as honest with myself as the limitations of my mind permit with regards to what the evidence suggests.

Anyway, I appreciate your honesty about your own perspective and your willingness to put forward some of the evidence on which you base your own ideas.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi dwid,

No problem!

Just to be clear about my own position, I take the view of semi-neutrality. I consider it a likely plausibility, but not definite surety. I may discuss it as if I accept it, but it is somewhat unknowable except for people like my wife who are able to talk to some form of being she considers either the dead or spirits as the case may be. This isn’t something that comes and goes for her. She is able to turn it on or off as she wishes. I even take a neutral position personally with her experiences, but I discuss it with her according to her belief system about it. As her husband I see my primary responsibility to be a support for her and not a naysayer while personally keeping a questioning, but open mind. This field of study is difficult to have hard science proof. So we have to accept evidence of a lesser quality by necessity.

You might say i neither believe nor dis-believe. I accept it as a possiblity and perhaps even a likelihood!

[dwid]

Thanks for clarifying.

I understand how you wouldn't express any skepticism to your wife. No good could come of that.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi dwid,

I don’t know if I would really call it skepticism on my part. To me skepticism tends to presume something is impossible or unlikely first and then looks to be convinced otherwise secondly, whereas my tendency is to try not to make any form of value judgment; maintaining a sort of wait and see attitude while collecting evidence to determine for myself the veracity of any claimed phenomena.

If I get to the point where I accept a phenomenon as true/real I try to recognize that just because I accept something as true/real does not make it true/real and equally just because I do not accept something as true/real does not necessarily make it untrue/unreal! Because of this I sort of view all things from one particular perspective as possibilities, but also as inherently unknowable from the perspective of Absolute Truth/Reality. What I consider known or knowable then is merely what I accept as known or knowable and does not mean it is actually true/real in the absolute sense, merely true/real for me according to my perspective. So from my perspective all things are possibly true/real with the only limitation being the arbitrarily accepted boundaries of an individual’s personal perspective.

From a hard science point of view this could seem ludicrous, however many people do not understand that worldviews (definitions of reality) are determined by arbitrary agreement. We have a generally accepted definition in the scientific community about what constitutes real and unreal, knowable and unknowable. However definitions create arbitrary limits that have the tendency to restrict our perspective. Limits restrict what we will consider to be possible. Because of this there will be knowledge that is considered by some as unreal or unknowable that is in reality real and knowable. By allowing that anything is possible one is open to the possibility that the unreal is real and the unknown is knowable. If we maintain too fixed of an attitude about true/real we limit the opportunity to know what may be considered untrue/unknowable, but is in reality true/knowable. Since we don’t know what is unknown we remain open to knowing the unknown by accepting its possibility. In the mean time it is wise to follow the generally accepted structures of reality, the arbitrary definitions of what is true/real, as provisional truths. They are seen as tools we will use for a specific purpose, but to be discarded when they are no longer useful. This attitude frees us to be receptive to phenomena that occur outside the arbitrary boundaries of the commonly accepted limits.

I tend to approach a subject according to the belief system to the other person while interjecting thoughts or ideas meant to broaden the perspective concerning whatever the topic is. To many, life is about imposing personal beliefs upon others, and I understand that at times it may appear I do the same thing, however my purpose generally is to broaden perspectives not impose my own perspective. It springs from a belief that a broader perspective is of greater benefit than a narrower one. This itself is only one perspective however and therefore not necessarily true within every context.

To me Tao is like water, it is inherently formless. Like water Tao takes on the form of whatever contains it. In this way limit is imposed upon limitlessness, but this limit occurs for a purpose. It should not be perceived as a negative quality or phenomena. The interaction of limit upon limitlessness may be thought of as a form of divine playtime, dance, or game!

Just as a cup gives form to the water it contains, each cup defines/forms the water it contains differently than that of dissimilar cups. Each individual is a dissimilar cup of Tao that uniquely defines and expresses/manifests Tao.

Since we are active participants in determining the shape of our cup, our personal definition and manifestation of Tao, we project our own value and meaning onto Tao. The projection of Tao we perceive and interpret is actually a reflection of ourselves onto the field of experience, and therefore a manifestation of only a limited aspect of Tao. By introspecting into ourselves, our self-imposed limitation and the effects we have on the world around us, we may learn about Tao, but more importantly about how we limit the manifestation of Tao in our lives.

The value and meaning of our unique manifestation of Tao is determined by each of us for ourselves. When we interact with others, sharing our ideas and thoughts, we are merely limited aspects of Tao contained within a cup of our own creation commingling with other limited aspects of Tao. Through this commingling (socializing) we are changed and the expression of Tao we manifest changes in quality. We will each determine the meaning and value of that change in the quality of our personal expression of Tao for ourselves.

As i re-read this it seems I am making no sense at all! But this is the best I can do for now, LOL!!
____

If you read any of the sources I have mentioned please share your thoughts and insights in that regards. I have read many of your postings and I have found your thoughts interesting and of benefit in broadening my own perspective!

[dwid]

Hi dwid,

If I get to the point where I accept a phenomenon as true/real I try to recognize that just because I accept something as true/real does not make it true/real and equally just because I do not accept something as true/real does not necessarily make it untrue/unreal! Because of this I sort of view all things from one particular perspective as possibilities, but also as inherently unknowable from the perspective of Absolute Truth/Reality. What I consider known or knowable then is merely what I accept as known or knowable and does not mean it is actually true/real in the absolute sense, merely true/real for me according to my perspective. So from my perspective all things are possibly true/real with the only limitation being the arbitrarily accepted boundaries of an individual’s personal perspective.

From a hard science point of view this could seem ludicrous,

Actually, this is almost the definition of a hard science point of view. Everything is probabilistic, and you must always be willing to accommodate theory to new data. To me, the scientific method, at its heart, is as open a perspective as there can be while still trying to extract meaningful data/infer meaningful relations between phenomena. The trouble is that most scientists forget all about this and get hooked on one particular theory or other and their bias becomes a gigantic blind spot to their observations.

Also, as far as skepticism, we were just operating from differing definitions of the word. To me, skepticism has gotten a bad rap and thus has this negative connotation you suggested. But in my mind, well... see the following definition:

skep·ti·cism also scep·ti·cism (skpt-szm) KEY

NOUN:

A doubting or questioning attitude or state of mind; dubiety. See Synonyms at uncertainty.
Philosophy
1. The ancient school of Pyrrho of Elis that stressed the uncertainty of our beliefs in order to oppose dogmatism.
2. The doctrine that absolute knowledge is impossible, either in a particular domain or in general.
3. A methodology based on an assumption of doubt with the aim of acquiring approximate or relative certainty.
4. Doubt or disbelief of religious tenets.

As you can see, by the original definition, I would say, based on your posts, you are very much a skeptic. A lot of people call themselves skeptics today who are really just wrapped up in a different dogma that they don't see as a dogma. True skepticism is rejection of all dogma or absolutism and the acceptance of the reality of uncertainty.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi dwid,

Yes, I agree with your views concerning the scientific method and skepticism. It would have been more accurate if I had qualified that I was referring to both as commonly practiced as opposed to their ideal form.

Thank you for you comments!

[Nexus]

Discorporating at will implies a relativity to time, meaning this: If you can choose the time and place in which you would discorporate and do so, then you have displayed the ability. However, if we accept the notion that time is actually an illusion realized by enlightened beings as such, what is to then be said about discorporating at a given time?

[Nexus]

Related to this discorporating at will tangent, there is a movie called "The Notebook" that has an ending related to the topic, where two lovers joined hand in hand, pass away in eachothers arms during the night.

It's a love story movie for those interested. It has it's tear-jerking moments.

[Scott R. Brown]

Discorporating at will implies a relativity to time, meaning this: If you can choose the time and place in which you would discorporate and do so, then you have displayed the ability. However, if we accept the notion that time is actually an illusion realized by enlightened beings as such, what is to then be said about discorporating at a given time?

Hi Nexus,

Good point!

Also, if there is nothing but “here and now” then when discorporeating, it isn’t only WHEN did you go, but WHERE did you go? You have basically, GONE NO WHERE, RIGHT NOW!! LOL!!!

This means all action is a product of mind and not a physical manifestation in the manner we accept. It only “appears” to be physical and is therefore an illusion! This coincides with the teaching of Hui-Neng 6th patriarch of Ch’an who teaches that everything is a product of mind!

So, to seek to learn to discorporeate is to pursue an illusion and does not seem to be a very productive use of ones time!

[DarinHamel]

Discorporating at will implies a relativity to time, meaning this: If you can choose the time and place in which you would discorporate and do so, then you have displayed the ability. However, if we accept the notion that time is actually an illusion realized by enlightened beings as such, what is to then be said about discorporating at a given time?
Why does discorperating imply a relativity to time? Time may be relavitive, but it is not an illusion. Motion (ascension?) is relative too, but that is not an illusion either. All relativity implies is a larger picture, not that there is no picture.

[Nexus]

Taichibob,

I experienced nocturnal emissions during my training until i'd developed sufficient pc muscle strength and a burnining internal desire to retain my seminal fluids. I would then wake in the middle of the night on the brink of ejaculation and immediately my instincts would be to tighten the muscle and perform lesser heavenly circulation meditation which seemed to work well for me.

[DarinHamel]

Taichibob,

I experienced nocturnal emissions during my training until i'd developed sufficient pc muscle strength and a burnining internal desire to retain my seminal fluids. I would then wake in the middle of the night on the brink of ejaculation and immediately my instincts would be to tighten the muscle and perform lesser heavenly circulation meditation which seemed to work well for me.
Yep, thats the way to do it. Wet dreams are rough at first but like anything else you can overcome it if you really want to.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Yep, thats the way to do it. Wet dreams are rough at first but like anything else you can overcome it if you really want to. At a certain point the retention becomes natural and you don't even fully wake.. but, my teacher cautions not to be too "controlling", that occasionally the release is beneficial.. sort of maintaining the machinery.. she also taught to not conceptualize "overcoming" or dominating our nature, rather to see it as cultivating a higher natural intention.. a subtle but important distinction that sets the intention as harmonious rather than conflicting..

Be well..

[DarinHamel]

Greetings..

At a certain point the retention becomes natural and you don't even fully wake.. but, my teacher cautions not to be too "controlling", that occasionally the release is beneficial.. sort of maintaining the machinery.. she also taught to not conceptualize "overcoming" or dominating our nature, rather to see it as cultivating a higher natural intention.. a subtle but important distinction that sets the intention as harmonious rather than conflicting..

Be well..
Its the "mystery" of the bleeding spear in the Holy Grail quest. I found it enlighening when I first started to retain I had monthly emissions like a woman does that cycled on the moon phases. Then I learned the bindu lock and gradually it sort of stopped. But the cycle that replaced it was the energy pulsing up the spine.

[nairb]

You guys are much more studied than I am on these matters but I just have a few questions-

For the non-abstinence people - if you should have sex naturally then why do Buddhist and Christian monks - including Zen masters - go thru a period of celibacy and meditation before achieving any level of enlightenment? To me these two groups seem to have the highest hit rate of achieving some level of enlightenment.

If you say you must have sex because strong animals are natural and have sex - how many animals have achieved enlightenment? That argument just seems like a way to justify doing whatever you want and you want sex obviously.

For the Taoist experts - I thought the fundamental first tenent of Taoism is conversion of the jing to chi by first conserving the jing (semen). Isn't this a very big argument for abstinence in Taoism.

These questions are based on the assumptions that Shakyamuni Buddha, his Arhats are at the top of the enlightenment pyramid going down to and including the Chinese Ch'an (Zen) patriarchs. I'm not sure where the middle eastern religions fall on the scale, except that some of the Christian monks and Sufis certainly also attained some level of enlightenment. BTW, some Sufis practice abstinence and some do not. The orthodox Sufis follow the example of Mohammed, which includes marriage. I'm not sure what percentage of those married Sufis achieve a level of enlightenment. Zen in Japan also allows for practitioners from the married salary man community. I understand they are not expected to achieve much tho. They are probably just for cash flow. :) Also, I assume the Taoist immortals have some level of enlightenment, somewhere below the Zen patriarchs if you had to rank them.

BTW - Congratulations on the achievements of the people on this thread. It sounds like your doing well along the path.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi nairb,

We must be careful to not confuse co-incidence of phenomena with a cause/effect relationship. Just because many who are “presumed” to have some spiritual advanced condition “appear” to be celibate or are celibate, does not mean that the celibacy contributed to their advanced spiritual condition, even if they claim it is so. Just because I, or my followers, or the adherents to the path I follow claim an advanced spiritual condition does not mean it has actually occurred either. The Dali Lama and the Pope are two who I would point out are considered spiritually advanced, but are not necessarily so! On whose authority do they have this condition bestowed upon them? They are given that position as a condition of their position within THEIR group and then the authority of that group is accepted by an unwitting populace. It is claimed by some that Steven Segal was recognized by the Dali Lama to have been a reincarnated Lama, but he doesn’t seem to have much maturity since he was a well known wife beater in Santa Barbara County where I know a deputy who frequently answered the calls of his wife. Segal is another one I would consider someone who plays the part, but appears to lack inner maturity.

Just because someone shaves their head, dresses in cool robes, professes celibacy, speaks cryptically, acts the part, and is treated as if they are advanced does not automatically confer an advanced condition upon them. Outward manifestations are not an accurate measure of development. Change occurs within and may not be noticeable outwardly. Commonly accepted outward manifestations of spiritual development may be easily pretended. It is not difficult to behave according to the expectations of others.

Outward manifestations are not a true reflection of an individual’s inner condition. The Highest Truths are not subject to democratic vote, popular opinion or outward affectations. They either ARE or they AREN”T manifested within an individual and most people do not have the insight to tell who has it and who doesn’t!! They measure based upon artificial standards and assume conditions according to whether those standards are noticeable or not. I can make a nice show of benevolence, wisdom and kindness, but that doesn’t make me that way inwardly! The outward actions may be identical, but the inward motivation is different.

You may note that the earliest ones teach about Tao as well as Buddha taught the middle path as the most productive method for spiritual growth. They taught “nothing to excess”, NOT the elimination of basic human activities and needs. If one exercises habits that go too far to either extreme whether hedonistic behavior or ascetic behavior it is considered unhealthy and unnatural by the original teachers. (You may also note this point of view was taught by the Greeks and was referred to as the “Golden Mean”.) It is those who followed afterwards that added to the basic teachings and changed them to extreme methods.

It is in the nature of men to exaggerate the basic principles, change them and misapply them. This misapplication is created by men of lesser understanding and occurs within all religious systems. Less knowledgeable men create structures or systems of training that were originally intended to be tools for growth, but they eventually become hindrances because they slowly move away from the original teachings by adding unnecessary requirements. Within these less effective systems the devotees eventually begin to focus on the maintaining of the ritual of the system and the maintaining of personal status within the system and NOT the facilitating of growth. They forget the system is nothing more than a finger pointing to the moon.

When the finger becomes more important than the moon, the system has lost its effectiveness! It becomes a trap that binds the devotees to worldly practices and rituals. When the growth process becomes unnecessarily structured and ritualized the devotee is forced to conform to external and arbitrary rituals rather than follow his own inner tendencies which will guide his growth. Those who perceive the arbitrary structures as unproductive and refuse to adhere to the structure are perceived as a danger to the system and are then ostracized.

As an aside, there are individuals who were followers of Tao that were married and had children and some Zen practitioners had love affairs as well. Just because they are not well known does not mean they did not or do not exist! Also ****sexuality is a tendency amongst the supposedly celibate, it is merely kept underground.

[nairb]

Hi Scott,

Thanks for the quick response. You may notice I did not mention the Pope or the Dalai Lama in my post. In fact, I specifically delineated an assumed "enlightenment heirarchy" in the last paragraphs. No offense, but it seems you are skirting the questions. Just for fun, I'll ask another few related to your last post -

- If the "middle way" means having a middle amount of sex then why aren't most people enlightened- Why isn't every business man/woman in Japan or the USA enlightened? They seem to practice the middle way by definition. At least the ones in Japan would probably like to be enlightened. As I mentioned in my earlier post their are a fair number of lay or householder zen practitioners in Japan, but they aren't considered to have a high success rate for enlightenment. Why?

- Is meditation considered part of the "middle way" by your definition? It certainly doesn't seem natural in the Taoist sense you indicate. Does meditation help towards enlightment?

- If meditation and/or celibacy are not the middle way, what discipline do you prescribe for someone to attain enlightenment - at what success rate?

Peace.

[Scott R. Brown]

Why does discorperating imply a relativity to time? Time may be relavitive, but it is not an illusion. Motion (ascension?) is relative too, but that is not an illusion either. All relativity implies is a larger picture, not that there is no picture.

Hi Darin,

This is very difficult to explain but I will try;

Let us start with the concept of ONE. With ONE there is no time or space. This is because in order to have time we must have movement or change. In order to have space there must be something to occupy the space, but in order to notice there is something within the space there must be more than one something to perceive. For there to be something to perceive we must have something to contrast with the other something or we won't perceive anything at all! If we only have ONE, we cannot have change which indicates time or a differentiation of things which indicates space. Therefore, with only ONE there is no time or space. In order for time and space to occur ONE must become at least TWO and these two must take turns being apparent. The TWO identifies space, the changing measures time. It is merely the manifestation of Yin and Yang so we will use these terms.

So to review, we start with Tao (ONE), which divides into Yin and Yang (TWO). This division is apparent (pretend) only. Tao is not inherently dual; it is conventionally or arbitrarily divided for a specific reason. That is, is Tao is pretending to be TWO to serve a particular purpose.

Now that we have TWO, Yin and Yang, they must alternate in some manner in order to create time. One must change into the other, but since they are both really ONE, they will actually only “appear” to alternate. It is MIND (That Which Perceives) that pretends Yin and Yang alternate. Since they are inherently Tao, they are not truly changing at all; MIND pretends they are changing. For Yin to be dominant or appear to be separate from Yang, Yang must be non-apparent. MIND must pretend not to notice Yang when Yin is apparent (dominant) and pretend not to notice Yin when Yang is dominant. While Yang is apparent MIND pretends not to remember it is really Tao; when Yin is apparent MIND pretends not to remember it is really Tao.

So MIND (Tao) fragments its perception thus creating time and space in order to serve a specific purpose and we call this purpose life or existence or being! Since it is all pretend it is merely an illusion. Nothing is really happening, it is Tao at play! Since there is nothing really happening and it is all pretend we can choose to play the game and agree to pretend to progress and grow or we can choose to see beyond the game to the essence of it all wherein there is nothing to do but BE!

Time and space are relative yes, they are relative to the perspective with which we choose to perceive, but they are not inherently real. They are pretend in order for Tao to play!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

For the Taoist experts - I thought the fundamental first tenent of Taoism is conversion of the jing to chi by first conserving the jing (semen). Isn't this a very big argument for abstinence in Taoism.It could be.. but, equally, control of the functions so as to express one's sexual nature without loss of jing is equally viable.. one can have a complete sexual experience while recycling semen, no external loss.. and, no diminishing of the sensations, the best of both perspectives..

I suggest that the Tao provides a unique physical experience for our physical existence.. in doing so, it seems to be contrary to Tao to reject some of the most intense and natural expressions of the physical existence in an attempt to gain insight into Tao.. in other words, the insights are right here, right now, why dull the very experiences that Tao provides.. Human nature seems to believe that we must pay a price for everything, that life is a negotiation.. i.e.: i can't get the reward without paying the price of difficult disciplines, abstinence, etc... we already have the rewards, all we lack is clarity and awareness.. which is available as a simple choice, we are what we choose to be.. if you believe that years of hard work is needed to gain the rewards, the Tao makes it so.. if you accept that you already "have it" the Tao will make it so to the degree you actually believe it.. It is noteworthy to note that Taiji, as well as all of reality begins at the junction of consciousness and the mind.. all things flow from that point from our perspective..

Be well..

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

- If the "middle way" means having a middle amount of sex then why aren't most people enlightened- Why isn't every business man/woman in Japan or the USA enlightened?Focusing on such a limited aspect as sex to be an indicator of enlightenment is a fatally narrow perspective.. sex, or the lack thereof, is a small portion of the holistic condition of "enlightenment", if such a condition/concept is anything other than a contrivance of desired outcomes... It would be interesting to see how differently people perceive the concept of "Enlightenment".. what is the standard for determining who is or isn't "enlightened"?

Be well...

[dwid]

Greetings..

Focusing on such a limited aspect as sex to be an indicator of enlightenment is a fatally narrow perspective.. sex, or the lack thereof, is a small portion of the holistic condition of "enlightenment", if such a condition/concept is anything other than a contrivance of desired outcomes... It would be interesting to see how differently people perceive the concept of "Enlightenment".. what is the standard for determining who is or isn't "enlightened"?

Be well...

Agreed, and also, what you mentioned before about differentiating outward appearance from what's actually going on. It was well known through much of the history of zen in Japan that monks were drinking and whoring. So well known in fact, that there are passages in which you can read leaders complaining that their students spend more time at the brothel than in the zendo. Read some of the poetry of some of the greatest zen poets of Japan and they are loaded with references to drinking and sex. People living a monastic existence are removing themselves from reality in many respects. They are purposefully limiting the stimuli available in the environment, so that they can limit themselves to a purely "spiritual" life. In many Buddhist sects, this is viewed as ideally a temporary condition, as ultimately the true test is in applying the lessons learned in this environment to the much messier world out there.

Nairb: Not to beat a dead horse, as I bring this up all the time, but there are no enlightened people in my opinion, only enlightened actions. The very concept of impermanence precludes enlightenment from being a state. So, when you look at a particular type of person as being enlightened and then attribute that to their practicing a lifestyle that is a lot more absolute in theory than in reality, you make two errors. Lots of people don robes and chant and abstain from sex and end up with no more insight than a guy that goes to work at a gas station for 20 years. Some supposedly enlightened persons have done some pretty unenlightened things as well. Look at some of the writings associated with high level Buddhists in Japan before and during WWII. They managed to bend zen into fitting the mold of the militaristic state.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Scott,

Thanks for the quick response. You may notice I did not mention the Pope or the Dalai Lama in my post. In fact, I specifically delineated an assumed "enlightenment heirarchy" in the last paragraphs. No offense, but it seems you are skirting the questions. Just for fun, I'll ask another few related to your last post -

- If the "middle way" means having a middle amount of sex then why aren't most people enlightened- Why isn't every business man/woman in Japan or the USA enlightened? They seem to practice the middle way by definition. At least the ones in Japan would probably like to be enlightened. As I mentioned in my earlier post their are a fair number of lay or householder zen practitioners in Japan, but they aren't considered to have a high success rate for enlightenment. Why?

- Is meditation considered part of the "middle way" by your definition? It certainly doesn't seem natural in the Taoist sense you indicate. Does meditation help towards enlightment?

- If meditation and/or celibacy are not the middle way, what discipline do you prescribe for someone to attain enlightenment - at what success rate?

Peace.


Hi nairb,

Please do not confuse not getting the answer you want with skirting the issue. I answered as I intended. If my answer did not give you the answer you were looking for perhaps I interpreted your questions differently than you had intended.

I am happy to respond again.

It is immaterial whether you mentioned the Dali Lama or the Pope or not. They were MY examples not yours and I used them because they are well-known public figures. My comments should not be taken to imply they do not have superior spiritual development either. There is no way for me to know. They were just an example of individuals many are familiar with that the circumstances to which I referred to may apply.

Sex has nothing to do with the Middle Way! The Middle Way is an attitude that individuals live their lives by that is reflected in their actions. Actions alone mean nothing! Change and development occur internally. Our outward actions are merely a reflection of that inner attitude. The Middle Way is recommended in order to avoid pitfalls. That is to make the path easier to tread. Extremes tend to bring with them consequences that create disorder in our lives, either outwardly, emotionally, or physically. Too much disorder makes treading the path we have chosen more difficult and distracting.

Sex is an activity; activities have nothing to do with enlightenment. If they did then you are correct, everyone or most everyone would be enlightened. Enlightenment is an internal state of being, not an outward affectation or behavior. What actions you perform have little to do with your state of being, mental attitude and perspective does!

When one speaks of meditation they must first specify which form of meditation they are speaking of and how it is intended to be used and for what gain. Meditation encompasses a number of mental exercises, each may be used and abused as any other method or tool may be used or abused. At any rate meditation is not a necessary requirement for enlightened to occur. That does not mean it cannot be helpful. To accommodate ourselves to Tao is to neither force ourselves to meditate, nor to avoid meditation. To either require it or to negate its usefulness is to be out of accord with Tao. If you wish to do meditate, do so; if you don’t like it, then don’t it, there are other methods one may use. Meditation is merely a tool with which some find benefit, and others do not.

I would refer you to the Bhagavad-Gita. Krishna outlines three primary paths to realization, a term I prefer to enlightenment because in my opinion it is more descriptive of what actually occurs. The paths are: The Path of Action, The Path of Devotion and the Path of Wisdom or Knowledge. With each Path the individual applies himself a bit differently. With The Path of Action the individual learns to perform actions selflessly without concern for credit or blame. With The Path of Devotion the individual learns to Love selflessly. With the Path of Knowledge, one investigates reality using philosophical inquiry. Each Path uses a different method to lull or condition the ego into releasing its limiting hold on the mind. Each path is appropriate for different personalities. That is not to imply these are the only three paths available. Hui-Neng the 6th patriarch of Ch’an recommends that “useful expedients” be used for each person according to their temperament. What is important is to understand that all methods are merely tools, the finger pointing to the moon. Whose finger or which finger is doing the pointing is of less importance as long as it points you towards the moon. Once the moon is realized, we may discard the finger (tool).

I do not recommend anything in particular. Each person will be attracted to a method that speaks to them. They will each find their own “useful expedient”. My purpose is to express cautions over blind adherence to the tools used and point out that a tool is merely a tool and not the goal. As long as an individual finds their tool of choice beneficial to achieving their goal then I encourage continuance, but I would still caution against unhealthy attachment to the tool. It is the goal that is important not the tool one uses.

You may ask then, which tool is the best? I would respond there is no “best tool”. We each have our own temperaments and we will gravitate towards the tools that have meaning for us. It s not the tool we use that may cause impediments it is our attachment to the tool we use that could create a hindrance to our continued progress. Since it is not a race to the finish line there is no need to be preoccupied with being led astray. We will all be led astray, that is part of learning to tread the path. There is value and meaning in the lesson even when we get sidetracked or regress from time to time. It is all part of the ebb and flow of Tao.

[alquimista]

My english is not very good but i hope you can understand me ...

I must say i agree 100% with Scott ... to reach enlightenment you must follow the way of Tao and live according to your own nature. One must find is way.

There are some modern taoist alchemy acupunctures who say that for true healing one must start living acording to is own nature. One must broke ego and find true self, then one can find the way of tao, and if that is is destiny he will reach enlightenment.

I think perserving the Essence (Jing) is important but having no sex or having less sex just to reach enlightenment is wrong. When one walks in the path of Tao trough meditation or just in a way of living (in exemples given by Scott) the desire for sex will decrease naturally, you dont need to force your self. If you meditate and force your self to have no sex then you will never reach enlightenment because you are not acting according to your own nature.

I'm not a martial art practicer, i play Tai Chi meditation form and Qigong and i'm studying Chinese Medicine.

There are 2 books that i like very much and are essential for one who wich to find is one way. "Nourishing Destiny" by Loney Jarret and "Five Spirits" by Lorie Eve Dechar are 2 modern taoist medical books who explain the theory of living according to Tao. Breaking the blocks inside of you, understanding the different levels of awareness and your self is something that one must do to understand the power of Tao. One can do this by meditating, breathing, acupuncture, praying, whatever ... decreasing sex activitie is something that will happens naturally (if it will happen at all) when you start walking in your own destiny.

According to ancient taoist spiritual tradition, when one borns heaven gives one a destiny. This destiny is not something you have to do in this life but is the way you should live this life. When you born you are in perfect harmony with Tao and your own destiny but you loose this harmony when you start growing. It is one task to return to this harmony during live, to find is destiny, one´s own nature and maybe ... enlightenment.

Dont force your self having no sex, maybe you will open some gates and feel more energy and more strange things ... but that is nothing to do with walking with Tao and enlightenment.

Well ... i hope someone do understand what i´m trying to say ... its not easy for me to express my self in english.

Did anyone here read this books? "Nourishing Destiny" and "Five Spirits"

Enjoy,
Jorge

[nairb]

Hi TCB,

I was just using the sex aspect for an example, but you got the point. What is the standard? That's why I listed an assumed "enlightenment heirarchy" in my original post. I'm assuming Shakyamuni Buddha and his lineage down to the Ch'an masters of China have the true Dharma. If someone doesn't agree they should submit another standard or there is no point of discussion. Personally, I go with the Zen Buddhist lineage since this is seems to be the best documented and most disciplined path. Even if only a tiny percentage of Zen practitioners achieve satori, I assume that is a higher percentage than any other approach until I find differently.

Why even make an effort at all? Maybe we should just frolic around in the woods all day since everyone is already enlightened? What was that Buddha person after anyway? Why a sangha? Why sit in zazen? Why did the Taoists seem to want to quantify their achievements? I'm assuming there's something there, a point. Then again, maybe it's all a big scam like the Wiz in the Wizard of Oz.

Thanks for actually answering the questions. Maybe you should write a book. :)



Greetings..

Focusing on such a limited aspect as sex to be an indicator of enlightenment is a fatally narrow perspective.. sex, or the lack thereof, is a small portion of the holistic condition of "enlightenment", if such a condition/concept is anything other than a contrivance of desired outcomes... It would be interesting to see how differently people perceive the concept of "Enlightenment".. what is the standard for determining who is or isn't "enlightened"?

Be well...

[nairb]

Hi Scott,

Thanks for the very quick responses. No offense, but these are all things anyone can read in a Suzuki or Alan Watts book. Read them already. Thanks...

Peace.


Hi nairb,

Please do not confuse not getting the answer you want with skirting the issue. I answered as I intended. If my answer did not give you the answer you were looking for perhaps I interpreted your questions differently than you had intended.

I am happy to respond again.

It is immaterial whether you mentioned the Dali Lama or the Pope or not. They were MY examples not yours and I used them because they are well-known public figures. My comments should not be taken to imply they do not have superior spiritual development either. There is no way for me to know. They were just an example of individuals many are familiar with that the circumstances to which I referred to may apply.

Sex has nothing to do with the Middle Way! The Middle Way is an attitude that individuals live their lives by that is reflected in their actions. Actions alone mean nothing! Change and development occur internally. Our outward actions are merely a reflection of that inner attitude. The Middle Way is recommended in order to avoid pitfalls. That is to make the path easier to tread. Extremes tend to bring with them consequences that create disorder in our lives, either outwardly, emotionally, or physically. Too much disorder makes treading the path we have chosen more difficult and distracting.

Sex is an activity; activities have nothing to do with enlightenment. If they did then you are correct, everyone or most everyone would be enlightened. Enlightenment is an internal state of being, not an outward affectation o