Gracie gets beat...

[AmanuJRY]

No more perfect record...what do y'all think about that?

[Chum Kil]

Glad to see Matt win. He's a Human Pit Pull, LOL

[anerlich]

Props to him for continuing to put it on the line in the ring, rather than basing his reputation on schoolboy fights on HK rooftops mid last century. Props to Matt also.

Whether his record is "perfect" is open to argument ... Wallid Ismail choked him out once in a gi match, and Sakuraba and Yoshida gave him a tremendously hard time in MMA.

Whatever, everyone gets beat eventually. Everyone has bad days, everyone gets old. Muhammad Ali got hammered toward the end of his career, but IMO there are few if any fighters who command the same respect.

[AmanuJRY]

I have to agree that Gracie deserves props for even stepping in the ring, instead of resting on the glory of his past. And, he took defeat like a real stand-up guy (no pun intended)

Besides, he said he has a few fights left in him.

BTW...anerlich, are you guys getting the Henry Rollins Show down there???

[Jeff Bussey]

For anyone who is interested in seeing it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tXpdMHH6tI&search=matt%20hughes%20gracie

[Vajramusti]

Thanks for the link. Kudos to both the contestants. Hughes' athleticism is very evident- a champion college wrestler who adjusted to ground and pound. Royce's patience and grace under pressure is also evident. He did create that house-though now there is a new and younger generation. Bound to happen eventually in spectator sports- whether its the ring or the octagon.

joy chaudhuri

[sihing]

I don't know if it was strictly a matter of the younger generation beating the older gen. Hugh's has natural gifts, strength is one of them, he's super strong and combine his natural aggressiveness, fighting skills, speed, and hard working ethic, and you have a very hard man to beat in the competitive arena. Personally, I think Royce is better now than he was in his hay days of the UFC. He's been fighting pretty steady they say, and he's cross training more. So to me, the Royce of today would fight Hughs better than the Royce of the early/mid 90's, but I'm no expert.

It would be cool to see Rickson fight him, that would be interesting fight.

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

I respect Royce, Helio, pretty much all the Gracie's (Rickson being a big exception)...and I respect their jiu jitsu grappling system - because it's excellent stuff. And of course, enormous respect for how they changed the martial arts world in a very positive way by proving the efficiency and effectiveness of grappling...

but man, the Gracie's have been WAY OVER THE TOP with their self congratulatory routine for TOO LONG!!!

They're not invincible - and their system isn't invincible either.

I firmly believe that catch as catch can wrestling is a BETTER grappling system when all is said and done - because it's principles, strategies, and techniques offer more ways to control your opponent and finish him off - without having to play the dangerous guard game. Period.

But even with that said - the MIXED MARTIAL ART approach to fighting is the way to go, imo...

Much respect for Matt Hughes and all the other great MMA fighters out there - past and present.

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey Joy,
No problem. The fight was on Sat night and when I woke up on Sunday morning (5AM) it was there. Gotta love the internet.

Royce separated his mind from his body. No flinching, or even an shred of discomfort. Man, I was tapping for him when I saw what Matt was doing to his arm :eek:

J

[AmanuJRY]

Man, I was tapping for him when I saw what Matt was doing to his arm :eek:

J

For real!

I realized I was holding my breath, ready to flinch at the snap...Gracie looked as calm as ever...mad props for that.

[Knifefighter]

I firmly believe that catch as catch can wrestling is a BETTER grappling system when all is said and done - because it's principles, strategies, and techniques offer more ways to control your opponent and finish him off - without having to play the dangerous guard game. Period.

LOL!!!

Not being able to use the guard is exactly what got Royce beaten in that fight.

Royce couldn't get Hughes into his guard, so he reverted to the very strategy that catch espouses, going to the knees. This resulted in Hughes taking his back, putting the hooks in, and getting the win with strikes from back control.

Hughes would have had a MUCH harder time beating Royce if Royce would have been able to guard him up.

If anything, that fight showed the inferiority of catch strategy.

[reneritchie]

Royce was a skinny Brazilian kid who used great strategy and many years of training to beat bigger, stronger opponents.

Matt Hughes is an elite level athlete who knows pretty much what Royce knows.

Props to Royce for taking the fight, it was Everest to begin with, but gotta admire the will!

(Catch?? Sigh ;) )

[reneritchie]

BTW- Lister's fight was slick. Now he had a dangerous guard...

Lotta chokes on that card...

[Nick Forrer]

man, the Gracie's have been WAY OVER THE TOP with their self congratulatory routine for TOO LONG!!!

They're not invinciple - and their system isn't invincible either.

I firmly believe that catch as catch can wrestling is a BETTER grappling system when all is said and done - because it's principles, strategies, and techniques offer more ways to control your opponent and finish him off - without having to play the dangerous guard game. Period.


Victor, seriously......... go to Renzo Gracies sometime and roll no gi.....see how your catch does against their *inferior* martial art. Then come and tell the forum about it.

[Liddel]

I realized I was holding my breath, ready to flinch at the snap...Gracie looked as calm as ever...mad props for that.

If you watch the post match IV's with Hughes, he stated that he felt it snap (and randy and Joe say they witnessed as much in the Commentary)

Matt was saying at that point he was just waiting for Big John to hear it and get in to stop the fight.

I dont think it got that far, Gracie was super calm - seemed to use the arm fine after ?
but this for me is another example of locks and holds in grappling that dont always provide the desired results with certain individuals meaning
Nothing is certain, so be prepared to adapt and punish :D

In Royce's Post match IV he wasnt a happy camper, stating "im dissapointed with my preformance" ....My bet...He'll be back.

PS
Notice how from time to time when we see a good guy loose, people come out and say - well he was against a much bigger guy but he showed heart etc etc.....

I just find it interesting that when a VT guy looses in vids posted around the net we dog on him about style etc offering our opinion as to why he lost, lack of this, not enough that, shoulda coulda woulda.....
But most of the time (in my experience) the Ving Tsun fighter was alot smaller than the person he was fighting :rolleyes:

Just an observation. :)

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Not being able to use the guard is exactly what got Royce beaten in that fight...

...If anything, that fight showed the inferiority of catch strategy." (Knifefighter)



***LOL.

There are numerous reasons why Royce lost: He has no real standup skills and Matt's standup (and superior strength) was good enough to close in and take Royce to the fence - and from there to the floor (when Royce threw an elbow when he shouln't have and Matt slipped under his armpit) - and once on the floor Matt immediately got a dominant top position.

He then used an excellent combination of wrestling rides and adjustments to maintain side control while inflicting lots of pain with a CATCH based figure 4 arm lock...

while Royce desparately tried for guard and eventually got half guard...but BECAUSE wrestling from a top dominant position is so much more effective than being on your back - nothing was gonna save Royce by this point in the fight - he had been worn down and was in SERIOUS trouble by the time Hughes trapped one of his arms with his leg...

so Royce had no choice but to try and turn in if there was to be ANY chance of escape - but Matt being the good wrestler that he is - just took his back and finished him.

So Why did Royce lose?

No real stand up skills (which translated into being backed up against the fence followed by weak defensive fighting when in the clinch) - no real anti takedown skills (which is a must against a quality wrestler like Hughes), and no real ESCAPE skills when he was taken down and put into cross chest position by Matt (ie.- bridging, roll outs, etc.)

It's the whole mindset that got him beat - because the best grappling requires either being the man who takes the other man down - or stopping his attempts to take you down - or escaping IMMEDIATELY if you are taken down and find yourself on the bottom...(unless there's a sub just staring you in the face and asking to be taken)...

but it's not fighting for a more "efficient" bottom position.

That's what guys like Hughes understands and the Gracie's don't...and that's what Couture was all about...Sakuraba, the new and improved Josh Barnett, (who's become a student of a great cacc old-timer named Billy Robinson), etc.

[reneritchie]

LOL @ Victor grabbing beers and missing the three fights that finished from the guard, (triangle and two guillotines).

Anything that's been that high percentage for that many people over that many matches? Yerp, hasta sug...

[gabe]

yeah, people don't realize...all techniques suck when they don't work. and all techniques are great if they do.

it's how you execute.

[AmanuJRY]

BTW- Lister's fight was slick. Now he had a dangerous guard...

Lotta chokes on that card...

No sh!t, Lister has a mean ground game, and he was setting himself up for a lot of unusual submissions...I liked watching him.

Fisher and Winman was insane, and Brandon Vera's guillotine...that was awesome!:eek:

It was a good show.

[Knifefighter]

So Why did Royce lose?
No real stand up skills (which translated into being backed up against the fence followed by weak defensive fighting when in the clinch
.
Royce’s standup skills definitely could use some work… no argument there.
That's not where he lost the fight, though. He didn't get KTFTO while standing, but, rather, on the ground.

no real anti takedown skills (which is a must against a quality wrestler like Hughes),
.
LOL @ “anti-takedown” skills against All-American FREESTYLE wrestler and BJJ practitioner Matt Hughes.

and no real ESCAPE skills when he was taken down and put into cross chest position by Matt (ie.- bridging, roll outs, etc.)
.

LOL @ bridging and rolling out against All-American FREESTYLE wreslter/BJJ practitioner Matt Hughes.

THIS is where Royce lost the fight… For some reason (time limits, maybe?) he used a more aggressive style (more closely related to the catch strategy you recommend than his more traditional BJJ strategy he usually uses) and tried to escape. Instead of remaining in bottom side control until an opening presented itself, he forced the situation and went to his knees where he fished for a Kimura (again abandoning his BJJ strategy of position before submission). This resulted in giving Hughes the underhook he needed to take the back.

It's the whole mindset that got him beat - because the best grappling requires either being the man who takes the other man down - or stopping his attempts to take you down - or escaping IMMEDIATELY if you are taken down and find yourself on the bottom.
.
Again, LOL @ taking down or escaping from an All-American FREESTYLE wrestler/ BJJ’er like Matt Hughes. What got him beat was the mindset of having to be aggressive and try to work to escape the side control position.

but it's not fighting for a more "efficient" bottom position.
.
Tell that to the four fighters who lost (Jeremy Horn also finished his opponent with an arm bar from the guard, but it wasn’t shown on PPV) while being submitted when they were in the more “dominant” top position that night.

When your opponent is stronger and more powerful with freestyle wrestling and BJJ skills, working from the guard is about your only chance.



Victor, you've been doing catch for something like 20 years now, right? If it is really more efficient, with that number of years of training, you should be able to win most submission grappling tourneys, shouldn't you?

How about getting out there and competing in some open submission grappling tournaments (instead of just yapping from behind your keyboard) and then come back and tell us how your “more efficient” catch style worked out for you.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Not surprised at the attempt to troll about this...what else is new?

I first got introduced to cacc many years ago as a 12 year old - but it wasn't the real deal stuff and I didn't persue it for very long...Started learning the real stuff only about 5-6 years ago - as it was literally a lost (and hidden) art for many decades...

Which has nothing to do with the fact that it's next to impossible to stop a good wrestler from locking your hips with his hips when you put him in guard - becasue he's on top and will call the shots in this regard if he wants to.

At which point you're at his mercy because there'e no space for you to pull off a triangle, and arm bar, or whatever else you think you've got.

As far as all the other arguments presented...LOL....so Matt's a good wrestler ???!!!

So become a better one if you want to beat him.

[Knifefighter]

.Started learning the real stuff only about 5-6 years ago.
That would put you in the advanced diviision in submission grappling tourneys.


Which has nothing to do with the fact that it's next to impossible to stop a good wrestler from locking your hips with his hips when you put him in guard - becasue he's on top and will call the shots in this regard if he wants to.
So, it should be a simple thing for you to sweep the advanced men's division in the next submission grappling tourney in your area. All you've got to do is get a takedown and use your super-duper catch skills to neutralize your opponents' hips to shut down their offensive attempts.

My bet is you getting armbarrred in under two minutes. But of course this will never happen because you never actually get out there and put your theories to the test by competing against other skilled grapplers. You just flap your gums and espouse your theories on internet forums.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Sorry but I'm not taking the bait, Frank...

The discussion here is not about me - as a way to bypass the real issues presented on this thread...

which is that Gracie lost to Hughes because both he and his style of fighting were overmatched.

I invite those who have been following this thread to carefully read over once again a part of what Dale Frank (knifefighter) said in a previous post:

"What got him (Royce) beat was the mindset of having to be aggressive and try to work to escape the side control position."


***THIS IS REALLY LAUGHABLE.

For those of you who saw the fight and remember it clearly - or better yet - if you have it on vid and can rewatch it...I ask the following question:

DID ROYCE HAVE ANY CHOICE BUT TO AT LEAST TRY AND FIGHT HIS WAY OUT OF HUGHE'S SIDE CONTROL WITH AN AGGRESSIVE ATTEMPT TO ESCAPE ???

Answer: No choice at all. Because nothing else he tried was working and the situation was getting very desparate. It was his only hope - meager as it was.

[Knifefighter]

as a way to bypass the real issues presented on this thread...
It would be nice to see someone (you) who is a pure grappling theoretician actuallly put his theories to the test in the laboratory of competition against other grapplers, but I'm sure that will never happen.




DID ROYCE HAVE ANY CHOICE BUT TO AT LEAST TRY AND FIGHT HIS WAY OUT OF HUGHE'S SIDE CONTROL WITH AN AGGRESSIVE ATTEMPT TO ESCAPE ???
Answer: No choice at all. Because nothing else he tried was working and the situation was getting very desparate. It was his only hope - meager as it was.
Of course he had another choice.... one that would have lost him the round, but at least given him a chance to move to the second round. He could have stayed in bottom side control position and just defended until the round was over.

[AmanuJRY]

Your guy's personal quabble aside, I'm with Knifefighter in most of his statements regarding Royce.


For those of you who saw the fight and remember it clearly - or better yet - if you have it on vid and can rewatch it...I ask the following question:

DID ROYCE HAVE ANY CHOICE BUT TO AT LEAST TRY AND FIGHT HIS WAY OUT OF HUGHE'S SIDE CONTROL WITH AN AGGRESSIVE ATTEMPT TO ESCAPE ???

Answer: No choice at all. Because nothing else he tried was working and the situation was getting very desparate. It was his only hope - meager as it was.

I believe his odds would be better if he tried working from the guard...:o

[Ultimatewingchun]

To each his own.

[Tom Kagan]

DID ROYCE HAVE ANY CHOICE BUT TO AT LEAST TRY AND FIGHT HIS WAY OUT OF HUGHE'S SIDE CONTROL WITH AN AGGRESSIVE ATTEMPT TO ESCAPE ???

Answer: No choice at all. Because nothing else he tried was working and the situation was getting very desparate. It was his only hope - meager as it was.


I disagree. He got out of side control and established half guard. It appeared to me that Royce actually had a very large opportunity to establish full guard from there, but chose not to take it for whatever reason. (Perhaps another viewing angle would show why better.)


As far as all the other arguments presented...LOL....so Matt's a good wrestler ???!!!

So become a better one if you want to beat him.


This argument is fallacious. How about reversing it: Royce Gracie is one of the most proficient Brazilian Jiu Jitsu practitioners in the sport. How did Matt Hughes beat him? By spending the last several years learning Brazilian Jiu Jitsu - not Catch Wrestling. Does it make any more sense to you that way?


Nothing in this fight validates anything in Catch Wrestling, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, or Ving Tsun. These are elite level people you are discussing.

The elite of a particular methodology do not prove its effectiveness. A If someone like Chuck Liddel wanted to make Moon Walking work in competition, he could probably figure out a way to do so without too much difficulty. But to prove that learning Moon Walking will be conducive to a better training methodology would require the "average Joe" to have a modicum of effectiveness using it.


Do you want to prove your methodology effective? I think someone on another forum said it best:

1. The elite are competitive with those of other arts
2. It shows a reproducible improvement in fighting ability for the average Joe
3. It produces fewer annoying d0rks.



While claims and beliefs are all well and good, if the above cannot be demonstrated, then all the claims and beliefs amount to are some interesting theories.

[Knifefighter]

He got out of side control and established half guard. It appeared to me that Royce actually had a very large opportunity to establish full guard from there, but chose not to take it for whatever reason.
If you watch the fight closely, you will see Royce trying multiple times attempting to put Hughes back into the full guard, but Hughes had a very strong defense to that going (watch his left leg movements). Hughes also did a very nice pass when Royce went for the sweep/heelhook attempt from the 1/2 guard.

Overall, excellent technical ground work by Hughes..

[PangQuan]

im pretty sure the only person that can say for a fact why royce lost is royce.

other than that its all speculation based on personal experience and knowledge of the sport.

royce knows he lost, and he knows why he lost.

whether he was over matched, out skilled, made the wrong decision or just playing fuked up...he lost.

[Tom Kagan]

If you watch the fight closely, you will see Royce trying multiple times attempting to put Hughes back into the full guard, but Hughes had a very strong defense to that going (watch his left leg movements). Hughes also did a very nice pass when Royce went for the sweep/heelhook attempt from the 1/2 guard.

Overall, excellent technical ground work by Hughes..


Ah, well. That's different. Obviously, Victor is 100% right in every conceivable way about Catch Wrestling's superiority. :D

I saw the fight only once from one angle - an angle which also did not show Royce Gracie's double jointed elbow the commentators were freaking out about.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Now let me tell you guys (once again) what I remember about the last minute or so of the fight...

beginning with after Royce got half guard and couldn't get full guard because of Hughes's skillful blocking...

Royce had half guard on Matt's right leg - while Matt was still in pretty much a cross chest position (side control)...and had already given Royce fits (and mucho pain) with the figure 4 arm lock on Royc'es left arm/elbow...

that lock (as an attempted submission) was already gone and both of Matt's arms were free to go elsewhere...and then the following major turning point in the fight took place:

Hughes trapped Gracie's right arm on the floor with his free left leg...

which would now leave Matt's left fist free to savage the right side of Royce's head and face with punches - that would be virtually impossible to defend...

and it's then that Royce turned into his right side and tried to get up - which was his only possible escape route at that point.

As I said earlier - he had no choice but to go for it quickly and aggressively - but Matt took his back and you know the rest.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Btw...Royce Gracie has started a thread on the UG thanking people for their support. The guy's got class. Here's what he had to say in the opening post:

From: RoyceGracie
Date: 05/29/06 01:31 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
1145 Total Posts


I would like to thank all the fans that were supporting me for this fight against Matt Hughes. I want to thank 15,000 plus fans that showed up at the Staple Center and really made me feel welcome and hundreeds of thoughsands that purchased the PPV. I am very disapointed in the outcome of the fight. I did not train for a fight like that and want to appologize to the fans who expected more. Matt Hughes is a great champion and he was the better man that night, I give him all the credit. He was very humble in his victory and that shows a true champion.
I am going to take a little time off from training and spend with the family. BUT I WILL BE BACK TO FIGHTHTING BEFORE THEN END OF THE YEAR.

Thank you again for your support

Royce Gracie

[Liddel]

LOL at your guys discussion over something so trivial..... :D

I have to say Victor - you seem rather resolute in your opinion of what "could or could not, have been done"

Royce repeated himself many times over pre fight "Anything can happen".

My knowledge of catch wrestling is ZERO, but anyone proclaiming dominance in a fight due to style alone is over looking other more important factors, especially at this level IMO, and especially between these two fighters.

My Opinion - The real Royce didnt show up, hed been training alot of standup, talking alot of stand up, thinking alot of standup and his fucus was disrupted IMO.

I watched a pre fight IV where he was talking about how amazing would it be if he knocked Matt out :rolleyes:

The whole style debate IMO is pointless when for these athletes at this level they are thier own style, they can adapt to any situation - but someone has to loose !

But hey, who am i anyway ? :o

[Knifefighter]

The whole style debate IMO is pointless when for these athletes at this level they are thier own style,
Truer words were never spoken.

[Knifefighter]

which would now leave Matt's left fist free to savage the right side of Royce's head and face with punches - that would be virtually impossible to defend...

and it's then that Royce turned into his right side and tried to get up - which was his only possible escape route at that point.
Wrong again...
All Royce had to do was go back to bottom side control as as he freed his arm on his way to his knees and felt the under hook coming under the other arm and the leg hook coming in on the near side leg. This would have given him 1/2 guard again and is a very common defense in BJJ when your opponent is working into a back mount when you turtle to your knees.

Not that Royce could have won a time limit fight against Matt, but he probably could have lasted the whole fight with a more defensive strategy. The limited time limit rounds are what forced Royce into a more "offensive defense".

[Zhang Yong Chun]

First of all, you have to give credit to Royce.

He had everything to lose and nothing to gain by fighting again.

If he stayed home, he could have retired with a great record and never taken a chance on "ruining" his perfect record.

But the truth of the matter is, he lets his actions and not his words or boasts or previous reputation speak for themselves.

In the end, everyone can be beat by anyone. The likelihood that Ali would lose to Spinks was so remote that no one gave the challenger a chance. If an elite, professional athlete who worked as hard as Muhammad Ali, a fighter blessed with all of the gifts nature denies 95% of us, a brilliant tactician with a heavyweight punch and a lightweight's speed; if such a man can lose a fight, ANYbody can lose a fight.

God bless Royce was not hurt badly or suffered a life-threatening injury. The ref stopped it at the right time because there was no way he could have recovered from his last position.

Grandmasters in Chess lose. World Champion Boxers lose. The New York Yankees *sometimes* lose. Only in the martial arts do we have undefeated champions. The difference between those guys and us? They compete. We tell Legendary Stories in the Far Away Time of what our Masters Could Have Done when the Qi was flowing.

[Ultimatewingchun]

For those of you who don't know anything about catch as catch can wrestling - and would like to know more...

and since sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words, I invite you to go to the UG (Underground Forum):

mma.tv


and read the 18 page thread entitled: "A PICTORIAL HISTORY OF SUBMISSION".

There are numerous photographs posted on this thread of quite a few cacc wrestlers (mostly from the early decades of the 1900's) showing their stuff.

And while you're at the UG - you might want to check out the recently instituted catch forum - which can be found be clicking onto GENERAL FORUMS...followed by clicking onto CATCH WRESTLING.

There are quite a few wrestlers from all around the country posting on this forum - including guys who have begun training in cacc in recent years and have wrestled/grappled in open competitions with success.

[Nick Forrer]

The top submission grappling (no Gi) event is Abu Dhabi

The current champions of Abu Dhabi in their respective weight classes are Roger Gracie, Jacare, Marcelo Garcia and Leo Vieria

All of these guys train in BJJ - not catch

When Catch guys start winning Abu Dhabi (or at the very least placing respectably) with their *superior* martial art then people will start taking it seriously....until then its all just unsubstantiated hyperbole

And pictures from 100 years ago demonstrate nothing more than the fact that people used to practice it 100 years ago....its says nothing about its efficacy today

[Ultimatewingchun]

Start following the catch forum threads if you really want to keep an open mind about cacc - and drop the denial about guys like Sakuraba being a catchbased wrestler...keep an eye on Josh Barnett (who recently submitted an opponent with a catch top wristlock and immediately gave props to his instructor, catch great Billy Robinson in the post fight interview)...

and then go back and watch Couture's fights...Hughes' fights...the Shamrock's (who always were catch based grapplers)...

and notice the difference in grappling styles (ie.- non BJJ).

Now granted that guys like Couture and Hughes are not catch based wrestlers per say...(because they never had the opportunity to train in cacc submissions, setups, and strategies)...

but all catch is...is a modified form of the wrestling that these two guys learned.

For Christ's sake....I have a recently released catch documentary wherein even Dan Gable is talking about cacc and it's similarities to what he's been doing all these years

And then if you trace the line between the people I just mentioned and who it was that inspired them (whether they realize it or not - and some do....ie.- see what Mark Chapman has to say on the aforementioned documentary - which is entitled: "CATCH - THE HOLD NOT TAKEN")....

if you follow the line you'll find that some of the people demonstrating cacc holds on the UG thread from the early 20th century are the very people who the folks of today look up to - and whose moves they try to emulate.

P.S.- Here's another scoop for you: The only two matches that Maeda was ever known to lose (yes...the Maeda who settled in Brazil around 1916 or so and taught the Gracie's)...were two matches in Europe to catch wrestlers.

[Merryprankster]

and notice the difference in grappling styles (ie.- non BJJ).


I wrestled for years.

I have a brown belt in BJJ.

Trust me when I tell you it's all the same ****.

The reason wrestlers adapt so well to BJJ, Judo, Sambo etc and vice versa is because it's all the same stuff.

I had to worry about new ways to lose in BJJ, but that's about it.

Catch as Catch Can wrestling is essentially dead, but I suspect it will limp along.

CACC is essentially: Solid wrestling + submission skills. And no wonder that would work well! Wrestling is all about controlling your opponent, and control is the first step of submission!

I'm trying to figure out what is unique and special about that. Oh. Wait. There isn't.

And you forget UWC, I still have that tape you sent me. It was supposed to be relevatory, but there was nothing in there I hadn't seen before. I'm not knocking Tony. In fact, it looked like....


It looked (hold your breath)....

Like a Top-Game BJJer! That is, it looked like exactly the type of stuff guys who play top game in BJJ like to do. Shocking!

All it did was prove to me even MORE that all of this stuff is the same.
It has to be, or else it wouldn't work.

The only real beef you seem to have is with the guard. I say "So what?" Very few people advocate guard over any other position. There is nothing deadly or dreaded about it. It's one position among many, and it is certainly the best place to be if you get stuck with your back to the ground - which happens, even to the best of us.

Oh, and re: Sakuraba....let's not forget that his fundamentally sound wrestling isn't "catch." It's from being a national class standard type non-submission wrestler. Tack some submission on that and you've got a powerful thing. I know he trained with a catch guy, so his submissions are "catch," but you know what? Well-executed submissions are all the same too. An armbar is an armbar is an armbar - they rely on control, isolation, and hyperextenstion/rotation, whether you got it from Judo, "catch," BJJ or anything else - and if it doesn't have those elements, it's a crappy armbar...

There are certainly a difference in preferences. And because of that, a difference in approach to solving the ground game...but there is nothing fundamentally different about the way of moving or the skill sets required.

I respect a lot of the openness in your mind and the things you do. But on this issue, keep living in your fantasy world.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Catch is dead...Tony Cecchine looks like a BJJ fighter....


Ha,Ha,Ha...!!!:D :cool:


Okay, Merry....go to the catch forum and start reading the threads about catch great Karl Gotch's top student, Yoshiaki Fugiwara....

and then buy his two volume video made in Japan back in 1994 entitled SUBMISSION MASTER....which is beyond Cecchine and unmistakably cacc - even someone with your blinders on will CATCH that...:)

...then buy the dvd that was made in February of this year of Fugiwara's seminar in Los Angelas..which also features old time catch great D--K Cardinal. (The missing letters are i and c).

BOTH VIDS ARE AWESOME.

P.S. - Also note the "bios" on the seminar DVD and follow the line of wrestlers from Fugiwara to Sakuraba.

[Tom Kagan]

Catch is dead...Tony Cecchine looks like a BJJ fighter....


Ha,Ha,Ha...!!!:D :cool:


Okay, Merry....go to the catch forum and start reading the threads about catch great Karl Gotch's top student, Yoshiaki Fugiwara....

and then buy his two volume video made in Japan back in 1994 entitled SUBMISSION MASTER....which is beyond Cecchine and unmistakably cacc - even someone with your blinders on will CATCH that...:)

...then buy the dvd that was made in February of this year of Fugiwara's seminar in Los Angelas..which also features old time catch great D--K Cardinal. (The missing letters are i and c).

BOTH VIDS ARE AWESOME.

P.S. - Also note the "bios" on the seminar DVD and follow the line of wrestlers from Fugiwara to Sakuraba.


"For every catch wrestler, there is a corresponding pitch wrestler." -- Tom's thumb rule #96

:rolleyes:

[gabe]

Like I said to KF, I don't care if you are the best catch or BJJer around, stick an elite grappler like Hughes on top of you and see if you could reverse the situation. All this theory or style goes right out the window.

[Merryprankster]

"Catch" as it WAS practiced, is dead.

People are trying to revive it, but it's like the Society for Creative Anachronism. They aren't quite sure what the guys in the past did. This is because sport Catch evolved into modern wrestling, and the "catch" part with the holds and the profit, devolved into Pro-wrestling.

Fortunately, since all the grappling is fundamentally the same, the world over, it's pretty easy to re-create...:cool: I have no doubt that it's probably pretty similar to what they did do precisely because it's all the same.

So, what you've actually got is really good wrestlers with submission background.

You're even saying it yourself, with your comments re: Couture, Hughes, Sak. You talk about them in the same breath as "Catch," but you conveniently de-emphasize that each of these guys had a solid - outstanding actually - standard wrestling background. None of them were ever competing, back in their day, thinking "gee, I'm really doing Catch without the submissions." They learned submission at a later time - and in Sak's case from an admittedly old-school guy more in line with the "hookers" of the 1800's.

If YOU want to call that "catch" go ahead. I'll call it "wrestling + submission," because that's what it is. It's taking a solid wrestling base and adding something on that works very very well.

Regarding them being the same, I've got well over a decade of grappling experience, and I've gone against and competed in, wrestling tournaments, BJJ tournaments, no-gi submission tournaments, Judo and even once, an impromptu Sambo add on.

And I've done ok in each of them! If they were as different as you say they are, that shouldn't be possible - entering anything outside my specialties should have gotten me killed - like a boxer entering a judo tournament or vice versa. But I didn't. I did alright. Adapting to their rules wasn't so hard.

And why is that? Because at their core, these arts are the same. They use the same principles of movement and in many cases, the same execution of those principles. IT'S ALL THE SAME. A throw is a throw. A choke is a choke. A leg takedown is a leg takedown and a joint lock is a joint lock. Having experience across these competition formats allows me to say that, thank you.

I'm not denying that its different flavors of the same dish, but because one person makes their gumbo with oysters and another with chicken, that doesn't make it not gumbo.

The joy is in those differences, in fact. It's part of the fun - and maybe you prefer one type of gumbo over the other.

But you are trying to tell me one is gumbo and the other is lo mein.

It ain't, and no amount of saying it will make it that way.

[AmanuJRY]

"For every catch wrestler, there is a corresponding pitch wrestler." -- Tom's thumb rule #96

LMMFAO!:D



On the more serious side. MP, sure you can reduce all grappling arts to wrestling and submission...just the same you can reduce all stand-up to elbows, punching, knees, kicking and headbutts (clinch being considered in the grappling), right?

So where does style make the difference in either?

Especially when styles are mixed...:confused:

[Ultimatewingchun]

"If YOU want to call that "catch" go ahead. I'll call it "wrestling + submission," because that's what it is. It's taking a solid wrestling base and adding something on that works very very well."
(Merryprankster)


***AND WHAT I'M TRYING to tell you is that the Grand-daddy and origin of today's "submission wrestling"...

is without any shadow of any doubt....CATCH AS CATCH CAN WRESTLING.



Now as to the differences between catch strategies, principles, setups, and submissions compared to other grappling arts like BJJ...if YOU choose to blur the line between those differences - that's your business.

And if you choose to see the similarities between the two systems and say "aha...it's all the same stuff" - that's your business also.

But I'm going to make a prediction right here and now. Remember this date: June 1, 2006...

Within the next 5 years (or less) it will be a GIVEN within the grappling world (and the MMA world) that catch as catch can is not only a DIFFERENT approach to grappling than BJJ - but also an EXTREMELY formidable one.

[Knifefighter]

and read the 18 page thread entitled: "A PICTORIAL HISTORY OF SUBMISSION".
There are numerous photographs posted on this thread of quite a few cacc wrestlers (mostly from the early decades of the 1900's) showing their stuff.
Those were some great old photographs. You can see, that although many of the moves are “carney” show holds, many of them are the precursors of today’s more workable techniques and a few are done pretty much the same as they are done in today's competitive environment.

[Knifefighter]

***AND WHAT I'M TRYING to tell you is that the Grand-daddy and origin of today's "submission wrestling"...
is without any shadow of any doubt....CATCH AS CATCH CAN WRESTLING.

I think most people believe that BJJ has had the biggest influence on today's submission grappling and judo newaza had the biggest influence on BJJ. That would make BJJ the father, and judo the grand-daddy. Freestyle, Greco and Folkstyle are brothers and Sambo is probably a cousin.

With it's history with fake moves and worked matches, catch is probably more like the crazy uncle.

[gabe]

I think most people believe that BJJ has had the biggest influence on today's submission grappling and judo newaza had the biggest influence on BJJ. That would make BJJ the father, and judo the grand-daddy. Freestyle, Greco and Folkstyle are brothers and Sambo is probably a cousin.

With it's history with fake moves and worked matches, catch is probably more like the crazy uncle.


You guys aren't having a lineage war, are you!!!! :eek: You're in the right place here at the WC forum!!! :D Next thing you will be doing will be BJJ forms tournaments! But in all seriousness, MMA mcdojos are on their way, too. Already here, actually. LOL

[Ultimatewingchun]

Aha, Dale Frank....and therein lies one of my biggest beefs with BJJ:

All the friggin subs it stole from cacc, renamed, and called it's own. :eek:


The kimura was adapted after the cacc double wrist lock...

The "Americana" (Jesus...as if the name itself doesn't give it away)...is the cacc top wristlock...

Eddie Bravo's "twister" is an old cacc sub...

Heel hooks...etc.


It's ok to use the moves - but when you try to pass it off as your own (and as if you ALWAYS had the stuff)...

Then it's time for a beat down...(Yeah, Sakuraba - double wrist lock those Gracie's into submission from a position they've never seen before, baby!!! :cool: )

(btw...the story goes that is was the two catch wrestlers who beat Maeda back in the day who showed him some subs that he brought to Brazil with him).

[Knifefighter]

But in all seriousness, MMA mcdojos are on their way, too. Already here, actually. LOL
Hmmm...
I like it....
Cardio MMA...
Lots of hot chicks wrestling around in your guard.
Sign me up.

[Knifefighter]

All the friggin subs it stole from cacc, renamed, and called it's own. :eek:

???"STOLE"??? How do you steal a technique?

The kimura was adapted after the cacc double wrist lock...
The "Americana" (Jesus...as if the name itself doesn't give it away)...is the cacc top wristlock...
Eddie Bravo's "twister" is an old cacc sub...
Heel hooks...etc.

The Kimura was named after the Japanese Judo master who beat Helio Gracie.
You can't give much more credit than naming a move after someone from who's style the move comes from.

You've said yourself the catch top wristlock is different from the BJJ version.

Eddie will tell you he got the "twister" from high school folkstyle wrestling where is called the guillotine.

Heel hooks are not even allowed in BJJ competitions.

BJJ practitioners have never made any secret about incorporating whatever works. All you have to do is look at the old interviews with Rorion Gracie.

What is unique about BJJ is not it's arsenal of techniques, but, rather, it's tactics, strategies, and training.

[yenhoi]

I thought you two already had this thread a few times.

;)

[Tom Kagan]

I thought you two already had this thread a few times.

;)


"All of the world's knowledge and wisdom is available on the internet. However, it is retyped in at frequent periodic intervals, thus causing a measurable reduction in the signal to noise ratio at each interval." -- Tom's thumb rule #6

:rolleyes:

[Ultimatewingchun]

"What is unique about BJJ is not it's arsenal of techniques, but, rather, it's tactics, strategies, and training."


***THIS IS TRUE...(although by training if you mean the lack of body building/strengthening through weights and/or strength and muscle building exercises using one's own body weight as the fulcrum to the point where you really are getting bigger and stronger - what's here to point to that's unique in a positive way???)...and you've got to admit that if Royce was going to have any chance of beating Hughes he needed to get stronger than what he obviously was...

(What was it that General Schwartzkoff said about the first Gulf War when we had 500,000 troops on the battlefield???..."Quantity has a Quality all it's own").

But be that as it may...yes it's tactics and strategies are unique. In fact, two of the most famous catch as catch can matches ever to take place occurred in the very early 1900's between the champion from the Midwest, Frank Gotch (who many believe was the best catch man ever)....and his challenger from Russia, George Hackenschmitt - who was basically a Greco-Roman wrestler who came to America and challenged Gotch.

(Btw....Karl Gotch was not born as Karl Gotch...his real name is Karl Istaz - a German Hungarian born and raised in Belgium and was an Olympic wrestler for Belgium in 1948) - but took the name Karl Gotch in honor of Frank Gotch after going to Billy Riley's famous catch gym in Wigan, England and learning submission and catch setups. After which he came to America and decided to wrestle professionally).


...Hack had some experience grappling against Japanese jiu jitsu/judo grapplers (as did many cacc wrestlers in those days)...and once commented that jiu jitsu was a whole different IDEA than wrestling was (Catch, Greco, or whatever).

And that idea, it seems...is to try and rely almost exclusively on leverage and going from one position to another as a way of incrementally gaining positions that offer more and more control (again relying almost exclusively on leverage) - before attempting a sub...and in the case of the Gracie's adaptation of jiu jitsu:

it usually assumes that the opponent is probably bigger and stronger and therefore you will be taken down and put on the bottom - so learning how fight from off your back was of paramount importance (ie.- the guard position)...and using a limited amount of high percentage subs that can be gotten from certain positions.

This is a unique idea, I agree.

And one that has taken the Gracie's very far.

But wrestling "heavy" as it is done in wrestling (ie.- catch) does not require superior strength either - IF YOU UNDERSTAND LEVERAGE....and if you have a BIG arsenal of subs that can be gone after from MORE positions (as long as you have CONTROL over the opponent's body - and sometimes (if you're really skilled)...

going for a limb to start applying a sub can also be used as a way to actually GAIN a controlling position...

(but it's not advisable to throw all one's eggs into this particular basket - as was done in shooto - and Ken Shamrock's PREMATURE attempt to heel hook Royce Gracie in their first fight with this kind of thinking was his downfall)...

So wrestling HEAVY is a big cacc principle (lower your hips and don't be on your knees from side control, for example)...one of the things that Matt Hughes did that actually prolonged the fight - as lowered hips would have made even the half guard that Royce got virtually unattainable - as there would be no space for him to use...

but I understand why Hughes was on his knees and placed a knee on Royce's chest to go for the mount (a typical BJJ strategy)...

his arsenal of subs from the cross chest position (and it's close friend - the head and arm position)....his arsenal from cross chest is limited - and his arsenal from the head and arm probably non-existent).

AND THESE POSITIONS REQUIRE LESS WORK TO GET than the mount....(food for thought ???)

So my overall point is this: If you're strong (though not necessarily the strongest guy on the block)....and fast...and a solid wrestler...and you know the cacc arsenal of setups and subs - AND YOU'RE GOOD AT ESCAPES AND REVERSALS FROM BOTTOM POSITIONS....and good at stand up wrestling in the clinch..and good at takedowns and takedown defenses...

you have MORE ways to control your opponent and finish him without having to fight from off your back - which, as I said way back at the beginning of this thread - is dangerous.

[stricker]

first up you guys are nuts!

one thing about the bjj strategy position then submission is its actually built in to judo in a way as junior judo rules are to get position and hold it and then senior judo has subs etc. i know judo has throws too and not point based on the ground etc

one thing about catch i heard is that the rules meant being on your back is a loss where if you dont have that rule you can actually get a lot of submissions off your back in guard etc.

also theres some other old wrestling systems like lancashire and conish wrestling but anyway one thing about these martial arts is everyone can pretty much get on together. eg "submission wrestling" is basically whatever you want theres no real bjj judo sambo catch etc no one cares just get on the mat and roll

that said my judo coach is always grumbling about "some brazillians" doing Basically Just Judo hahaha

also the future of sub wrestling is looking forward mixing it up eg eddie bravos stuff and yup vic if you read his book [or train with him :cool: ] he says it comes from wrestling

also ive seen some clips from fujiwara that are pretty cool ways of getting nastier subs etc. so may be its more some cool stuff to add if your on the street.

yo vic i dunno if youve got any $$ or other loyalty tied up in catch but you should chill man and go roll with some bros :) its all good.

[Ultimatewingchun]

It is all good, stricker...

Just havin' some fun while talkin' about one of my favorite subjects.


Listen...I'm no dummy. I know how good a grappler Royce is/was....Rickson even more so...big Nog is great...

A lot of jiu jitsu/judo guys can get it done.


Btw...Lancashire IS catch as catch can wrestling. In fact, it's where catch actually started. The Americans from the midwest really took the ball and ran with it from there, though.

[Knifefighter]

***THIS IS TRUE...(although by training if you mean the lack of body building/strengthening through weights and/or strength and muscle building exercises using one's own body weight as the fulcrum to the point where you really are getting bigger and stronger - what's here to point to that's unique in a positive way???)....

Where did that come from? Step away from the meth lab and into the real world.

So my overall point is this: If you're strong (though not necessarily the strongest guy on the block)....and fast...and a solid wrestler...and you know the cacc arsenal of setups and subs - AND YOU'RE GOOD AT ESCAPES AND REVERSALS FROM BOTTOM POSITIONS....and good at stand up wrestling in the clinch..and good at takedowns and takedown defenses...

If that is the case, it looks like you should be training in BJJ instead of catch.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Cute...

You should be doing standup - in a comedy club.

In fact, here in NYC...the most famous comedy club is:

CATCH A RISING STAR.


All the best grapplers go there to be entertained. :cool:

[Liddel]

Cute...

You should be doing standup - in a comedy club.

In fact, here in NYC...the most famous comedy club is:

CATCH A RISING STAR.


All the best grapplers go there to be entertained. :cool:

Why go out when you can stay right here for this Laugh a minute 8itch fest.

Honestly my day at work is going real fast :D

[jesper]

What exactly does this thread has to do with WC:confused:

[AmanuJRY]

What exactly does this thread has to do with WC:confused:

I practice WC and I wanted to start a thread discussing the last UFC.:)

Is there a problem with that?:confused:

[gabe]

What exactly does this thread has to do with WC:confused:


Well there was a bit of a lineage war here.:p

[reneritchie]

Kimura and Americana are just two honorifics applied to the different (up and down) versions of the same Judo move, Ude Garami (sp?).

Far as I know, Judo is still taught to most (all?) Japanese children as phys. ed. in school.

For some reason, it's also the Gracie's kryptonite, as Kimura broke Helio's arm with it, Sakuraba dislocated Renzo's and had Royler's locked tight, and Hughes had it locked on Royce for a while.

[jesper]

AmanuJRY sez
Is there a problem with that?

Not if you want to talk about the actual fight and what we can learn from it.

However I do have a problem when the thread turns into an argument about what is best or most authentic between bjj practitioners and catch followers. there are more appropriate forums for that.

Ah well, probably just me so keep up the discussion about which wrestling style is best:)

[GungFuHillbilly]

I want to thank everyone for sharing...

I may not agree with someone and If I wanted to hear about BJJ or Catch sure I could go to those forums...but more than likely those people would not know anything about wing chun.

So...I appreciate that some wing chun folks here are not so myopic as to say 'if it's not wing chun we can't talk about it'

I recently got together with a guy who's a Goju instructor and did some sparring. There was some good stuff learned on both our parts.

Heck, whatever happened to a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick? (or is it a lock is a lock and a throw is a throw...a take down is a take down and a choke is a choke...oh darn!:mad: )

-GFH

[Ultimatewingchun]

This is the first page of a thread on the UG entitled:

Western Wrestling + Boxing =


From: tx mma'er
Date: 06/01/06 10:49 PM
Member Since: 10/01/2005
171 Total Posts Ignore User


the winning fighting combo. Along with a little sub defense, of course. Kicks are worthless for non-genetic freaks like Cro-Cop, IMO, and everyone is increasingly becoming wary of subs, IMO.
On TUF, the deaf guy sucks at boxing, but is still dominating the BJJ ace in the fight right now. Countless others have the same style, but more refined- Liddell, Hendo, Rampage, Couture, Gomi, etc....

Great wrestlers that know how to throw hands and have basic submission knowledge will rule MMA in the future.

Opinions?


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From: Esteban Barragan
Date: 06/01/06 11:03 PM
Member Since: 11/25/2005
95 Total Posts Ignore User


If you think that, then you should drop by my gym

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From: mog87
Date: 06/01/06 11:05 PM
Member Since: 01/17/2006
207 Total Posts Ignore User


in the future you mean in the present, in the future you will have to be good at every aspect of the game.

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From: jasculs
Date: 06/01/06 11:08 PM
Member Since: 07/28/2002
797 Total Posts Ignore User


"but is still dominating the BJJ ace"
2 1/2 years of jiu jitsu is hardly a BJJ ace, plus his jiu jitsu sucked ass. He is probably a beginner blue belt at best.


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From: Wasa-B
Date: 06/01/06 11:09 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
13318 Total Posts Ignore User


The boxing/wrestling combo is great and has done wonders for the Liddels, Gomis, CCs, Kids, Hendos, Jens', etc but if they get taken down, you need bjj/the guard (though both the wrestling/bjj aspects help them get back up).

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From: AvAMajestic
Date: 06/01/06 11:09 PM
Member Since: 10/22/2002
557 Total Posts Ignore User


Opinions?
Basically that you know very little about the fight game.


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From: pulsar
Date: 06/01/06 11:11 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
25897 Total Posts Ignore User


If you choose to ignore either of the 3 points of the MMA triangle - striking, takedowns and groundwork you are only fooling yourself.





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From: Haole
Date: 06/01/06 11:12 PM
Member Since: 03/30/2006
1048 Total Posts Ignore User


If you think that, then you should drop by my gym
I will send Couture, Baroni, Hendo and Gomi right over, what the address?


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From: FightStudent
Date: 06/01/06 11:55 PM
Member Since: 05/28/2004
1465 Total Posts Ignore User


I think that what the initial poster is saying the MMA'er who realizes the greatest success as a fighter, in the shortest amount of time, is the one who comes from a Wrestling and Boxing background, who supplements his pre-existing skills with submission defense and "Muay Thai" (i.e. kicks, knees, and elbow strikes) defense; he does not necessarily need to learn submission or Muay Thai style striking, he only need to defend against it.
I don't necessarily agree with the initial poster, but I think that that is basically what he is saying.


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From: pulsar
Date: 06/02/06 12:17 AM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
25903 Total Posts Ignore User


"I don't necessarily agree with the initial poster, but I think that that is basically what he is saying."
And that's precisely where I disagree. If you look at grass roots level shows, still many fights are won by submission...

It's the veteran wrestlers at the top of the food chain that get the most accolades... Which is to be expected.

I personally think Wrestling is the best base too, but it absolutely MUST incorporate submissions to be successful, so you could argue they are as important as each other.


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From: PoundforPound
Date: 06/02/06 03:05 AM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
5471 Total Posts Ignore User


Submissions are absolutely necessary. And I'd argue that Muay Thai leg kicks, elbows, and knees are too.
But yeah, boxing and wrestling are a solid base to start from.


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From: 50rounds
Date: 06/02/06 03:12 AM
Member Since: 05/13/2006
638 Total Posts Ignore User


"but is still dominating the BJJ ace"
"2 1/2 years of jiu jitsu is hardly a BJJ ace, plus his jiu jitsu sucked ass. He is probably a beginner blue belt at best."

Nickels IS a blue belt

he's no kind of standard bearer for BJJ fighters

tell Sakara that all he needed to beat Lister was boxing & wrestling


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From: effinggoof
Date: 06/02/06 03:17 AM
Member Since: 01/18/2003
3127 Total Posts Ignore User


Wrestling+ boxing= ground and pound

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From: Haole
Date: 06/02/06 01:15 PM
Member Since: 03/30/2006
1061 Total Posts Ignore User


tell Sakara that all he needed to beat Lister was boxing & wrestling
He doesnt have any wrestling he is a boxer/JJ guy.






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From: triso
Date: 06/02/06 01:21 PM
Member Since: 01/09/2006
267 Total Posts Ignore User


When will people stop using examples of cross-trained fighters, and intentionally chosen wins of said fighters to prove their "points" and "theories" about which style/base is best?
Give it up. You're making yourself look stupid.


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From: MMAPitbull
Date: 06/02/06 02:29 PM
Member Since: 05/15/2003
894 Total Posts Ignore User


It is simple. You must have bjj,wrestling,Muay Thai, and boxing. That is the best combo. If you do not train one of these, you will eventually be exposed.

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From: Haole
Date: 06/02/06 02:34 PM
Member Since: 03/30/2006
1065 Total Posts Ignore User


It is simple. You must have bjj,wrestling,Muay Thai, and boxing. That is the best combo. If you do not train one of these, you will eventually be exposed.
Shut up

-Chuck Liddell


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From: JInJackson
Date: 06/02/06 02:42 PM
Member Since: 02/26/2004
205 Total Posts Ignore User


So which one of those four does Chuck not train in?

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From: Haole
Date: 06/02/06 02:44 PM
Member Since: 03/30/2006
1066 Total Posts Ignore User


MT

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From: Haole
Date: 06/02/06 02:45 PM
Member Since: 03/30/2006
1067 Total Posts Ignore User


Fedor says shutup also.

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[Knifefighter]

Victor-
Why aren't you over there telling them how important WC is in the MMA mix?
That should liven up the discussion.

[stricker]

actually something thats been talked about a bit recently in mma is the difference in fighting strategy from boxing or thai to mma. the big changes in stand up are 1. be more aggressive always attack dont let up when you get the advantage eg you cant spend time figuring them out like early rounds in boxing or thai 2. hitting in the clinch etc is more important eg dirty boxing 3. watch for level changes and other takedowns eg trips

now to me 1 and 2 are what wing chun is! the wing chun people in mma so far have sucked at 3 tho :( but take a stripped down to the basics simple direct efficient wing chun very pugillistic hitting at every chance not playing chi sao games and i think that could make some moves in mma. just my crazy idea of course :D but i believe it could....

^^ thanks you know who you are ;)

[Jam_master]

Bottomline is that both MMA and WC can benifit greatly from each other. Most MMA and BJJ people, from a WC stand point, have lousy hands period! (Haven't seen not one MMA or BJJ guy ever cover their face upon entry). And WC people need to address grappling more in their Kwoon (either to administer, or to counter agains, or both). As good as some WC guys may be, accidents do happen. (You can be faked into a takedown, you can slip and fall, your chain punching may even be rendered ineffective agains someone who can take it cause he's built solid or he's on the juice!, you can get tired, you can get careles, etc...).

In any case, we must all be able to adopt to change, and constantly familiarize ourseles with all possible counters and different approaches others will have and can offer so we as martial artist can be better prepared in any given situation.

Remember too that WC is more of a method, a concept, a scientific approach to fighting rather than a fixed and rigid style. WC theories and methods can be applied to almost any other system for added efficiency. IMO, It's the universal donor of all martial arts! LOL!!

[stricker]

Most MMA and BJJ people, from a WC stand point, have lousy hands period! (Haven't seen not one MMA or BJJ guy ever cover their face upon entry).totally disagree on this one. maybe most but my mma gym are big into thai so knees using the plum sprawling etc are drilled in so when shooting its important to set it up, level change first etc. of course there are awful shoots too.

some good stuff otherwise man.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Jam_Master:

Have you ever seen Fedor Emelianko, Chuck Lidell, Mirko Cro Cop, Vanderlai Silva, or Mark Hunt fight?

They all have VERY GOOD hands...and in the case of Cro Cop - awesome kicks. (And Fedor and Vanderlai are no joke with their kicks either).

And plenty of wrestler types in MMA are good ENOUGH with their hands and feet to work their way into clinch or takedown range very smoothly (ie.- Matt Hughes, Randy Couture, etc.)


Times have changed.

[unkokusai]

Great wrestlers that know how to throw hands and have basic submission knowledge will rule the future.

------------



These words should be repeated as often as possible.

[Merryprankster]

On the more serious side. MP, sure you can reduce all grappling arts to wrestling and submission...just the same you can reduce all stand-up to elbows, punching, knees, kicking and headbutts (clinch being considered in the grappling), right?

So where does style make the difference in either?


For sportive styles, the answer is rule sets. If I made the pin a winning position in BJJ, the guard would instantly disappear, and the knee and elbow escape would instantly be dumped in favor of the bridge escape.

But it's not just a matter of reduction. What changes is not the technique. It's the preferred strategy and tactics, and that changes what you emphasize in practice.

A head and arm throw is executed exactly the same way in Judo, Sambo and Wrestling. It has a different name in each, but its the same.

Seio Nage and Flying mare - identical.

However, the strategy and tactics are STILL present in each art and different people are successful with each. Plenty of BJJers have been made winners because of their takedown skills. Plenty are winners because of their top game etc... Plenty of wrestlers have only average takedowns, but are incredible mat wrestlers.

I also object to UWC claiming the win for "catch." That's like one of the Gracies saying that every win in the UFC was now a win for BJJ because of everybody must study submission to win.

Rediculous.

Gotta run. Practice!

[gabe]

For sportive styles, the answer is rule sets. If I made the pin a winning position in BJJ, the guard would instantly disappear, and the knee and elbow escape would instantly be dumped in favor of the bridge escape.

!

This statement is what concerns me, how rule sets dicate evolution. As sporting events become the standard, techniques outside of the rulesets will disappear. Many argue that a trained fighter can adapt on the street and use these "illegal" techniques or methods when needed. That goes against the notion that one uses what one trains. If you don't train it, you don't have it. It's the common arguement, a true one I might add, when a WC person states that his system has everything he needs for grappling, yet never does any grappling himself. In a similar vein, If you train to go for a pin and have tons of experience and matches under your belt, what do you think this muscle memory will do when you are on the street? You would instinctively go for a pin when the opportunity presented itself; that's what you train, that's what you'll do. Would an "illegal" technique serve you better, one that resulted in real injury to end the fight? Perhaps, but it is not what you train. And that moment's hesitation might be costly.

I bring this up for several reasons. Many, like sevenstar, have said the best fighters have only a few techniques that they employ day in and day out. They own them, they win with them. That goes for all arts, imo. Many traditional masters have earned their credibility with just a few techniques. These techniques may be rendered useless in a sporting event, due to the rules or the equipment; but are still extremely valid in the street. These people are only good with these few techniques. The notion that they should be able to adapt principles to any sporting event if it is a good art is not a valid one imo. I've seen that said over and over in these forums.

There is no need to debate the usefullness or realistic circumstances of sport training. But that is a specialized box suited for those that understand the rules and use it to their maximum advantage. Those techniques outside this box and the people who specialize in them ought not be disregarded. Evolution does not always mean improvement. Sorry, this is what MP's statement made me think about.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Hey Gabe...

Brilliant post !!! ;)

[Knifefighter]

As sporting events become the standard, techniques outside of the rulesets will disappear.
If you don't train it, you don't have it.

This is true, but only to a degree. Remember when MMA events allowed head butts? Nobody really trained them, but most people used them pretty effectively.

The problem with most illegal techniques is that they cannot be trained at full force against a resisting opponent who is also going full force.

The non-deadly technique trained and used against resisting opponents will almost always be more effective than the “deadly” technique that cannot be trained full force.

If you don't train it, you don't have it
... and if you don't train it full force, you don't have it.

At least the sports guys have their bread and butter techniques that they have used day in and day out at 100%. They know and understand exactly how these techs are used when done full force.

The "too deadly" guys have next to nothing because they almost never use their stuff full out.

[Merryprankster]

Gabe,

That's a good post, and I've been down that road meself.

Buuuuuuuuuuut....

As Knifefighter is pointing out, if you don't train it 100% at least some of the time, then you don't actually have it.


My point is that we all train with rulesets, no matter our emphasis. They keep us from getting injured while allowing us to train hard.

Do you or don't you have rules in the kwoon? I think the answer is that you do. The question always becomes not "street or sport," but "what ruleset do you prefer?"

[Knifefighter]

Do you or don't you have rules in the kwoon? I think the answer is that you do. The question always becomes not "street or sport," but "what ruleset do you prefer?"

Most of them would have to be paralized, blind eunichs with mangled fingers and crushed windpipes if they actaully trained with their "illegal" techniques.

[tjwingchun]

not joined in this one till I had seen the fight, in my opinion, the younger, stronger, fitter fighter won, but the main difference seemed to be the hunger in the eyes,the look in Matt Hughes eyes and the way he started the fight was reminiscent of Royce Gracie in UFC 1.

To have a chance against the advantages that were stacked against him, I think his best chance would have been to rush him and give his experience a chance to come into play, any fight is a percentage game and we all train to give ourselves the best chance of survival when the sh!t hits the fans. On the day Royce was not good enough, such is the oft heard tale of the old gunslinger!

Linking to how the thread has developed recently, I don't practice full contact, however I teach all the nasty things to end fights and use dummy and bag training to get a feel of full contact offloading, would I use them in reality, well I have but again is that personal skills and mentality rather than the system, that is where the discussion goes around in circles.

I have a few students who have moved to another school so that they can train with like minded students and have been successful in the fights they have had, I am thinking of linking with another Wing Chun lad who is a champion full contact fighter and if that happens then you might find the rules will be changing, as in my mind you destroy your opponent as quickly as possible with whatever weapons are at your disposal, one of the lads now fighting with another school, when we were discussing techniques and mindsets, he said I did not have the concept of the nhb sport right, my reply was when someone has the intention to give me brain-damage it will always be my main intention to render then unable to accomplish it, by targetting the most vulnerable parts of the body that the rules allow.

Been kicked in the nuts, kicked in the eye, smashed in the throat and my fingers are a bit arthritic, I have a wrecked back and pains in most of my joints but that was from playing pool in my local bar, was never hard enough to play dominos, lol.

Still moving and breathing just.

Take care and keep :D TJ

[Ultimatewingchun]

"If you don't train it 100% at least some of the time, then you don't actually have it."


***NOW THAT'S SOMETHING we all should agree with.

[dainos]

witht the flying knee i bet everybody thought that came out of a movie:D

[gabe]

"If I made the pin a winning position in BJJ, the guard would instantly disappear, and the knee and elbow escape would instantly be dumped in favor of the bridge escape."


It's the year 2026 and rulesets implemented years ago has made the guard obsolete.

A KFO conversation that year:
"Ever hear of the "guard?" Excellent technique!"

Knifefighter II: "What are you talking about? That technique is worthless and obselete."

"I've seen it used very well..."

KF II: "It's not used in the ring. Why? Because it's unrealistic to pull it off against live resisting opponents. You don't know anything about real fighting do you? It looks like what you see in the ring and nobody is stupid enough to try a guard in there. And nobody tries that in my gym!"

"I have seen it used in the ring in competition. I have tons of videos of these Gracies submitting people with it. They were some of the best fighters of their time."

KF II: "What, from 25 years ago? You stupid TMA'ers always talking about fairytale dead people."

"Look, they used the guard and used it well!"

KF II: "Not against elite MMAists of today! Back then they were doing that old outdated training programs- look, if you're not doing the modern virtual xyz super duper machine, you ain't got much. You probably wear one of those silly gi's don't you? Spandex is the proper material."

"Look those Gracies put grappling on the map!"

"Yeah, but my old granddad's dad who was doing pankraten taught Helio everything he knows. Helio wasn't recognized by my lineage as anybody! BJJ and catch came from my family! Don't you know your lineage!":p

[stricker]

its layers man. the way i see it stuff like basic boxing skills thai stuff, wrestling, basic groundwork thats like the bread and butter of fighting. can you defend against punches kicks shoot etc and hit kick etc your opponent. can you get superior position and control someone in the clinch or on the ground. thats the bread and butter layer 1. if you aint got that how you gonna fight?

now if you have got that.... then you can add layer 2 eye gouge bite ripping etc all that nasty stuff. ive been shown some stuff by doormen which definitely works so theres no point denying either. if a street guy gets an eye socket or something youre in trouble no matter what. but you gotta have the basics layer 1 first so both approaches are valid in my mind. street vs sport is a bull**** argument cos people just sit in one side of the argument why not both??

dainos ive seen some flying knees in real life :eek:

[Merryprankster]

Bingo Stricker.

Without the delivery system in place (the layer 1), layer 2 doesn't work.

I liken it to a missile without a guidance system. Eye gouges are serious business. But if you don't have a solid fighting foundation you can't deliver the payload.

[BM2]

Befoe answering this, go back and watch where they are against the fence and Royce knees Matt then Matt knees Royce below the belt that causes Royce to double over. Nobody noticed this?

[AmanuJRY]

witht the flying knee i bet everybody thought that came out of a movie:D

That was insane, I like how Wiman (the victim:D ) was all c0cky after he took a pretty good punch...and then, BAM!

Funny how he ducked right into it, too.:D


Befoe answering this, go back and watch where they are against the fence and Royce knees Matt then Matt knees Royce below the belt that causes Royce to double over. Nobody noticed this?

I don't recall that. I'm sure if it were that obvious to the cameras Joe would have commented on it and I'm confident that Matt wouldn't intentionally cheat to win.

But, if it did hit him in the groin unintentionally and it did affect Hoyce's performance than it's no different than in UFC 52 or 57 (can't remember which it was) when Coture lost to Liddel after getting jabbed in the eye.;)

[BM2]

They were clinched next to the fence when Royce threw the knee and Matt ,beinging shorter, hit Royce below the belt which doubled him over. As I said, go watch it if you recorded it. Just was wondering why it has been commented on before.

[gabe]

It's easy to raise the "too deadly" argument and then invent some strawmen to illustrate your points, but there are several points that were missed.

My first point was that evolution may not be a progression to the best fighting arts. Society sets a standard, like the UFC, and says that's the best of fighting. But MP's example of the guard losing validity in the ring due to a hypothetical rule change that emphasizes pins shows that fighting may lose an excellent tool such as the guard for reasons that have nothing to do with actual fighting value. Little things like time limits, ring size, equipment, all have an effect on how a fighter trains.

Now, not all things that are are not useful for winning MMA fights, like the guard in the above scenario, would be considered "too deadly." It would no longered be practised because it doesn't help you win, not because it's too deadly to train.

Now, the if you don't train it full force, you don't have it. Well, some of you argued first that you don't need to train the headbutt to use it effectively. Have any of you ever hit anyone full force with a headbutt? How many times have you used a technique over and over again stopping just short of really injuring your sparring parnter- is there any doubt you can use it?

Of course we need foundation, a level one. But I disagree with the rest. You don't have the luxury to pick and choose techniques as you want in a real fight or in high level competition. You win with muscle memory. Great boxers hit with combinations that flow effortlessly into openings that appear for a split second. Great grapplers capitalize on mistakes that only have a second to take advantage of. You don't have time to say "Oh yeah, I can use a headbutt here because there are no rules." In fact, your body will be saying don't use a headbutt because it's against the rules.

Again, that is the same arguement used against TMA'ers. If you don't train it, then you don't have it. If you never train that level 2 in any way, you won't have it in a fight. Unless it's against a moron Joe Schmoe where you can take as much time and risk as you like without paying for it.

Lastly, to MP's point about rulesets, yes, we all have rulesets. We all face the dilemma of training a fighting art meant to injure, without injuring our sparring partners. Not sparring hard like KF's strawman is not an option; you just have to be creative with gear and with your training.