Wow!

[Self]

Can you believe the stuff that Linda Lee has wrote and condoned? I am talking about Bruce Lee's fight with Wong Jack Man. I can't believe the inaccuracy shown in her writing and the film, Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story. I believe her book (the source material for this film) was called Bruce Lee: The Man I Only Knew. Seriously check out the article at

http://www.lakungfu.com/kungfusifujackmanwong.html

Before you guys pounce on me for starting in on a tender issue, consider it for a while. I too am a great fan of Bruce Lee but try to see the inconsistencies and get back to me. Warning: The article is obviously biased. I find it reasonable enough. :cool: Oh, If you haven't seen the fight from the film here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--jXc***3cc&search=Dragon%3A%20The%20Bruce%20Lee%20Story

-Aaron

[yenhoi]

Who cares? Were you there? Did you see the fight? Did you train with Bruce or Wong Jack Man? Have you ever met Mrs Linda Lee?

If any of that IS anything, then still, why does it matter and why should anyone else care?

[Self]

...I am not a fan of skipping over the truth and mass producing the outcome. As for why should anyone else care, I'm not telling you to. I just wanted to see what people thought about it, that's all.
I have met Mr. Wong and worked with a few of his students and those of Jerry Poteet and James Lee. Though Jerry was not at the fight, James and Mr. Wong both openly described a scene far different that that of Linda's book and film.
Now, I did not expect someone to be so agitated about the issue and for that I apologize. :confused:

-Aaron

[David Jamieson]

most people realize that the film dragon is filled with half truth and linda approved embellishment.

i believe wjm made a staement about the fight that took place long ago. there are some students of his that even post here.

yes the movie is ...well hogwash fo the most part, but it is designed to fit into the minds of those who never saw bruce in the heyday of his career of the early 70's.

Myths are not created by actuality, they are created by people with agendas.

[jethro]

that is one of my favorite movies of all time. But I do likre a lot of movies:p
And I wasn't exactly around on this earth when kung fu became popular, god that woudl have been a fun era.
I didn't pull up your article("self"), but I have heard linda tell this story. She describes it as this-a man challenged him, bruce went to his school, the fight involved a lot of running until bruce got a hold of him. Fight over. Am I missing something? Is this guy being disrespected becasue of this now? Are you trying to sort out the truth from movie fiction? What exactly are you trying to find out?

[Self]

I myself am not trying to find anything out really. I just wanted to share an article that certainly raised some interesting thoughts for me after having worked with some of these guys and hearing their versions of the story.

The fact of the matter though is this. However this incident may have happened, it was the fundamental reason for Bruce to transform his system into the modern Jeet Kune Do philosophy. I am a great fan of Bruce and I think that both the film and the book would have been better if it was written truly, without the conflicting notes and so forth.

So Jethro, to really appreciate something, in this case the art of Jeet Kune Do, one must try to find its true source. I think this is fundamental too for the continuation and future development of the art. We have to know where we have been to know where we are going. I'm not saying READ THE ARTICLE!!!; it is your choice but I found it interesting and, for you, it would be interesting to see the contrast between it and the film, which by the way is not a bad movie for what is is. :D

-Aaron

[jethro]

thank you for your response. Obviously you are into this jeet kune do thing more than me. I said I heard it from his wife's lips. Is the article different? I very rarely use a computer outside of work, and since my work blocks 99.9 % of all websites, this isn't exactly the first thing on my mind when I go out of my way to use a computer. It could be a while before I read it, sorry. What in particualr caught your eye?

also-please elaborate on just why this is the reason he created jeet kune do.

-Morgoth Bauglir

[jethro]

if you have a point in that thing, lpease quote it. My attention span would only make it through like half of that.

[Self]

Very well. The thoughts that follow are from the article and some are my interpretation of events and such so tread lightly.

Linda Lee makes Mr. Wong out to be a racist who does not want to share the Chinese martial art with non-Chinese, thus lacking credibility as Mr. Wong, currently and in the past, maintained an open-door school for all races.

The fight was actually issued by Wong in response to an open challenge, not one to him in particular, and was meant to be conducted as a test of skill, not a "Stop teaching white people!" fight.

The people who were there can not be recounted with the exception of Wong, Bruce, Linda, James and some students of Wong. There were certainly no Chinese elders holding a brutal match in a stone building.

Linda, in her book stated "Bruce pounced on him like a springing leopard and brought him to the floor where he began pounding him into a state of demoralization." No such incident is proven and was denied by Wong, his associates, and James, before he died. Wong was perfectly fine the following day, save a scratch above his eyes from a fingerjab from Bruce.

Wong, in his challenge response letter, stated that he would not kick Bruce because his kicks were to lethal. In the film, he kicks Bruce in the back and sends him to the hospital. *cough*Never happened.*cough* Bruce was particularly vicious that day in December; I couldn't tell you why but he was throwing finger jabs and hard kicks, apperently trying to injure Wong.

Both men regretted the fight and agreed not to discuss it publically. Weeks later he announced his victory over a nameless fighter in Chinatown. You may have seen the interview. He states, "The son of a ***** turned and ran." The few people who were there (the Wong men) have said this is untrue. This is obviously biased and unsolvable on both sides.

That was a brief highlight on the article and now for JKD talk.
His drive for developing Jeet Kune Do was the ineffectiveness of Wing Chun, or his interpretation, fundamentally. This fight with Wong was the essential turn-around on the Wing Chun style for Bruce. He did not feel he finished the fight quick enough and when he did, he was winded and thrown out of shape. Jeet Kune Do for Bruce was not just fighting, it was also a system of physical conditioning. In his fighting style he wanted the flexibility to divert from the center-line and throw new kinds of useful kicks and punches to suit his natural speed and perceptions.

Oh, I want to throw in this note because I am still angry and confused.:mad: :confused: Notice Wong is a Tai Chi and Hsing Yi stylist of smaller build. In the film, he was depicted as a big vicious guy who scratched and yelled and was a poor sport for kicking Bruce in the back. A quote from Glover in the film : "They sure do eat their wheaties in that family."

I'm sure a smart guy like you, if no others, can see where I am going with this.


-Aaron

[yenhoi]

Where are you going with it? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

In the movie Bruce Lee fights a deamon three times his size with neon orange nunchaku. That wasent real either.

It would be more in the spirit of Bruce Lee to put out a Hollywood film about his life then it would to put out a dry and boring documentary.

Acting and pointing out the oppression of the chinese were much larger and important projects to Bruce Lee then creating and sustaining a large body of ma people.

Geez.

:eek:

[jethro]

my apologies, I will take some time and check this thing out. Please pm me tomorrow if I forget, or else it will be a good reminderfor me since tomorrow is the only chance I wil have in a while. But you sparked my interest with the first line. I thought it was a bit odd that linda told such a quick story about it. Anywho... I will defintiely give oyu my thoughts on this, and they might actually mean something:p

Much appreciated.

[jethro]

you can't really compare all these real life accounts to the movie. Teh movie is just sort of laughable but only because of the directing job, it does go over a lot fo impoortant part of his life. It is CERTAINLY better than any bruce li movie like "Bruce Lee, the Man, the Myth. We may never know the exact truth sadly, just casue the accounts are so different on both sides. I find both to be hard to believe now. But I certainly do not believ Bruce went in their just to kill him.

One thing that I must have forgotten over the years is how bruce lee broke his back. All I rememebr is the movie, do you happen to recall, is that how it happened?

[DRleungjan]

One thing that I must have forgotten over the years is how bruce lee broke his back. All I rememebr is the movie, do you happen to recall, is that how it happened?

Bruce Lee apparently was doing an improper warm up routine prior to his daily lifting exercises. So you know what happens next. It is how I remember reading and hearing in one of James Coburn's(?) interviews about Bruce Lee.


DRleungjan :)

[CFT]

One thing that I must have forgotten over the years is how bruce lee broke his back. All I rememebr is the movie, do you happen to recall, is that how it happened?Did he actually break his back, I thought it was a severe back strain after trying to lift heavy weights before adequate warm up like DRleungjan said. It was not caused by a dishonourable sneak attack in a challenge fight - which is the dangerous untruth that the film propagates.

[jethro]

Did he actually break his back, I thought it was a severe back strain after trying to lift heavy weights before adequate warm up like DRleungjan said. It was not caused by a dishonourable sneak attack in a challenge fight - which is the dangerous untruth that the film propagates.

Yeah, I don't think he actually "broke" it, but he messed it up pretty bad. I am suer someone will come on and give the full story , but DR is most likely right. And also, that fight scene was just as weird as that whoel movie. I think the movie made more of a point that the director needs to stick to projects like "fast and the furious", "triple x", and "draqgonheart". It is a very laughable movie, but sadly, still teh best bruce bio movie.

[milojai]

Hi;
New to the forum.Its great from what Ive seen.
Let me say this about the 2 differant accounts of the same fight.
I know as I have trained in Oakland that He was challange alot &
They were over quick.The articles I see it like History or His Story!
Not to many give credit to spanards for land findings & trades.
El Cortez though defeated by Lapu Lapu did discover lots.
Now the point Im making is--There are 20 differant storys that tell
of the fight & how it was done.From Lapu Lapu having a stick to a knife to a sword.El Cortez had armor & couldnt move in the water & thare is were the battle took place. How & why there are many storys to that as well.
So I see it the same with the fight.Many storys but no actual account
as it may damage both sides.So an arangement was made.
As for Bruce & his styles!He saw the wing chung basics were not
enough to sustain him in aatacks.So from his brother he had Epie & took
the foot word-on guard stance--head to toe attacking-- & boxing with some of
the chinese ways.He knew Bok pai-12 sets Tom toy & Tai chi.So the JunFan was
intro,JKD was to intercept.Few I see do this & call other arts mixed JKD.I enjoy doing kali-silat ect.But JKD is JKD. R.I.P. the classical man ! Bruce Lee:cool: :cool:

[powerchord]

I myself am not trying to find anything out really. I just wanted to share an article that certainly raised some interesting thoughts for me after having worked with some of these guys and hearing their versions of the story.

The fact of the matter though is this. However this incident may have happened, it was the fundamental reason for Bruce to transform his system into the modern Jeet Kune Do philosophy. I am a great fan of Bruce and I think that both the film and the book would have been better if it was written truly, without the conflicting notes and so forth.

So Jethro, to really appreciate something, in this case the art of Jeet Kune Do, one must try to find its true source. I think this is fundamental too for the continuation and future development of the art. We have to know where we have been to know where we are going. I'm not saying READ THE ARTICLE!!!; it is your choice but I found it interesting and, for you, it would be interesting to see the contrast between it and the film, which by the way is not a bad movie for what is is. :D

-Aaron

Bruce Evolution started with Wong sheung leung long before wong jack man. Wong sheung leung was king of the talking hands, and undefeated in countless matches with boxers, wrestlers and other stylist.

So the wong jock man fight did not make bruce transform anything but review at what stage he had arrive, as there were superior boxers in america, bigger americans and a different set of fighting method that he wish to do what wong sheung leung did adapt his style to be able to fight those.

This is not just philosophy but was tested in kong kong in street fight and seen wong sheung leung defeat many differrent stylist bruce just carried that tradition to America.

Thus you see him taking small circle jujutsu lesson, some praymantis, sifu mark judo and wrestling gene labelle.

It is there and if you are in America you use what is there, and learn from it, just like he did in hong kong by seeing wong sheung leung his mentor and trainer who coached him during boxing matches and some altercations.

When you see bruce back ground then you see bruce way of think when he got to american, these big american are fast well trained and eat well and are big.
Wrestlers galore, boxers to professional levels, why not use that environment to further his development that begun in hong kong.

So wong jock man was also part of that evolution but not the whole story, his conditioning and method of body strenght and power building were examine in regards to the American method of doing things. As atheletes of those days were using it very successfully as bruce noted watching boxing matches and saw good reason to improve himself.

The weight training also, fitness routines, bikes, running this all add up to a fighter getting in conditon for fighting as in boxing.

Bruce know where he has been in kong kong but in america it is different so he was smart enought to pick the best methods to use to achieve his goals.
No yearning for hong kong methods which he might have seen as superior? but what ever get him the result he wanted.

A training fanatics not exactly tai chi or chi gung but the good old american methods that he liked.

The only thing about the dragon movie is that the bloke who starred in it did not do martial arts, but Jerry poteet trained him to portray bruce as he see it. JKD has a heritage of uptdate training methods as bruce did, even some eletrical stimulators.

Noting like running back to Kong kong to to complete his wing chun training but finding methods to meet his needs as he see it in the american environment.
Most would have gone back to hong kong but like he did in kong kong he went out and tested it, no theory or concept but actualy fights to see if it worked for him.

Of course having Wong sheung leung as your mentor and trainer is not that difficult to come out with his JKD that he decided to develop, even when he was in kong kong, searching with learning kicks from other styles and methods.