Wong Shum Leung's "Fast Hands"

[TenTigers]

I met a WC student who's lineage comes from WSL. He had a series of san-sik, and drills that he said were called "Fast Hands" and were taught to WSL by Yip Man, specifically for challenge fights. These drills consist of attack sequences, trapping drills, etc and when you lookat them, they also were many of the actual techniques Bruce lee was known for as well.
Now, this could be for two reasons. One, BL and WSL were doing most of the fighting, and two, the guy who taught these techniques also taught JKD, so he might me exagerrating the origins of these.
Does anyone know anything about these techniques?
Did any other teachers, such as Duncan Leung do these as well-because he also was very involved in the challenge fights?

[drleungjohn]

Rik-Wong,Bruce,Wiliam Cheung,Hawkins,Ben Liao,Duncan and Victor Kan were the guys who did a lot of the early gong sau,officially and unofficially-they were know as the Tigers of Wing Chun in the early 50's-that is not to say others didn't-it was due course back then-

As to the "only " one to get it-more likely marketing and student ego,since it is seen elsewhere too,and logical fighting is logical fighting-

As an aside-and just curious-why are you still using my old school pin as your avatar, albeit slightly modified?

John Crescione

[TenTigers]

Hi Sifu John.
Thanks for the info-good to hear from you.
as a side note-the plum flower-moi-fa is a universal symbol used by many Southern Chinese Systems, such as Hung Kuen, Choy Li Fut, Northern and Suthern Siu Lum,Mantis, Wing Chun, etc.,as it represents the rebirth of China.
Hung Kuen, being a major "player" in the rebellions against the Chings has always been associated with the Plum Flower, and has several sets bearing that name.
Actually, the first time I have seen the plum flower used in Martial Arts was on my TKD certificates, and if I recall, I believe Moy Yat also used this symbol, who was Lee Moy-Shan's Sifu, whom I believe taught you in the early years?
I use the Plum Flower in my logo to honor the history of my system, Siu-Lum Hung Kuen (Guongdong Hung-Ga), and although many Hung schools use the diamond, that symbol is more associated with Lam Sai-Wing lineage. I am from the Tang-Fung line.
That being said...it was a very cool pin, and I wore it proudly.
perhaps it was a subconcious act as well-after all, you were a big influence on my early Kung-Fu development. (I still use the term,"Oh sh!t!" when showing what happens when an emergancy technique is called for!-some things you never forget!)
Regards,
your student ("If a man teaches you for one day, he is your Sifu for life")
Rik

[marcus_pasram]

Hey Rik,

SiFu Duncan Leung has operated a messageboard (http://www.wingchunkungfu.cn/mb/) since 1998/1999 to allow all Wing Chun practitioners, regardless of lineage, to ask him questions. This is perhaps one of the only service where a disciple of Grandmaster Yip Man is accessable. He's answered similar questions as yours in the past. The archives has a lot of gems!

During the first of SiFu Duncan Leung's seminar, I remember someone asking SiFu Lee what's the reason Wing Chun is reputed to have fast hands if as he said, WC doesn't assume you're faster than your opponent. He got a demonstration of the "concept of speed," that looked like somethin out of Enter the Dragon. I forgot who asked that. (BTW, SiFu Duncan Leung has an article on his website, What Yip Man Taught me about Speed (http://members.tripod.com/~Wing_Chun/hpageie.html) )

Also, fwiw, my SiFu also uses the Plum flower in his logo. If I recall correctly, the plum flower is referenced in the WC poem SiGung Yip Man honored his disciples with.

[planetwc]

Check it.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gZYKOxdWw5E&search=wong%20shun%20leung

So, now you know the secret. Shhhhh.

[planetwc]

What about the end game?
Glad you asked.











Oh yeah and here is the one true real knife set.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nKE8ZDQkXHM&search=ving%20tsun

So now ya know.

[Dave P]

I met a WC student who's lineage comes from WSL. He had a series of san-sik, and drills that he said were called "Fast Hands" and were taught to WSL by Yip Man, specifically for challenge fights. These drills consist of attack sequences, trapping drills, etc and when you lookat them, they also were many of the actual techniques Bruce lee was known for as well.
Now, this could be for two reasons. One, BL and WSL were doing most of the fighting, and two, the guy who taught these techniques also taught JKD, so he might me exagerrating the origins of these.
Does anyone know anything about these techniques?
Did any other teachers, such as Duncan Leung do these as well-because he also was very involved in the challenge fights?

I'm doing WSLVT for about 12 years now. I have never heard of practical exercises called 'Fast hands'. Maybe he revers to another exercise like Bong Sau/Lop Sau or Chi Sau. Perhaps a free exercise. Or maybe Ving Tsun in General :)
There are no special or secret techniques in Ving Tsun.

[Dave P]

Oh yeah and here is the one true real knife set.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nKE8ZDQkXHM&search=ving%20tsun

So now ya know.

:eek: I think he's making it up, while doing it...:mad:

[Liddel]

Im surprised hes still got arms - :cool:

[Dave P]

That's because he can't cut his arms off with those plastic knives...:D

[TenTigers]

Hi Dave,
It wasn't lop-sao or chi-sao,which I am familiar with (I also practice Wing Chun) but after doing some research, what I realised is these are also the drills that are in one of the Vunack JKD books. I am not sure if you are aware of these drills, but they are closer to reaction/sensitivity drills that would work off of the chi-sao, such as, pak-da-your opponent intercepts with wu-sao not crossig centerline, so you cross pak, covering both arms and strike, etc.
I am sure these were either taken from the book, or from this teacher's JKD backround, or perhaps they were simply exercises Bruce Lee learned, but they seem to double as a marketing tool, considering the "story" behind them.

[Dave P]

@TenTigers,

It's hard to understand what you mean. Maybe you can email those pictures from the book. (info@vingtsunupdate.com) Or perhaps these are just 'sparring'drills. I have to see them to conclude if it's WSL or JKD. There are many exercises next to Chi Sau or Lop Sau as you might understand.

Greetings

Dave

[drleungjohn]

Rik-ok,thanks,just curious-I was aware of the Plum Flower symbolism in southern shorthand"rebel fist" styles-just curious

Dave -Hi Dave,we haven't met yet,but we are "linked" thru Darrell Jordan(off topic)-but I am sure we will-

The "drills" I believe we are speaking about are the pseudo modified contact drills that made their way into the Bruce Lee/Bob Wall scene in "Enter the Dragon"-those drills and others have been a staple in a lot of Wing Chun/JKD schools for years

I think these "drills" are just tidbits of contact and technique-whether Bruce got them soley from WSL,or others as well,and tweaked them to make them teachable in a curriculum format that would work for Americans,-who can say
Since people like Dave -who actually trained with the man,can attest to what was and wasn't taught by WSL,I'd go with the "reality",that it was more a Bruce to Dan Inosanto thing,with story expounding andf marketing,as well as "We got something nobody else did" type mentality

John Crescione

[TenTigers]

well, that seems to make sense, as some brothers from other WC lines have called me on the phone and explained this as well. "Hai Gum la":)
I wonder if this rumored technique came about after WSL's passing. Usually after someone passes, everyone comes out of the woodwork with the secret techniques taught only to him.

[Vajramusti]

There are many kinds of flow drills in wing chun for "fast hands"and not limited to the WSL lineage
and not influenced by BL, Inosanto or Vunak.

The plum blossom shows up in many places- its a treasured symbol. Taiwan beat the PRC in making it their national flower. Several other styles also have it. But it has a special place in wing chun-after all Ng Mui is our original legendary plum blossom and teacher.

joy chaudhuri

[Gert]

I wonder if this rumored technique came about after WSL's passing. Usually after someone passes, everyone comes out of the woodwork with the secret techniques taught only to him.That’s right, there are many people who then introduce new vocabulary to make it sound official and like they know what they are talking about. I have just made up a new one: “heavy feet” exercises for developing a more solid balance. :)

Every attacking movement has to be done with “fast hands”. There are a lot of drills you can practice in the Ving Tsun, all to make your actions shorter, more economical and to develop speed and power. The exercises are all familiar to all practitioners, there is no secret drills to make your hands faster. Some are hoping that there is shorter way then to train the simple exercises everyday, because of the long road and hard work. But it is more about the bodymeganic ’s and analyzing the actions you are doing, based on training experience. And there is of course also a predisposition for an individual for his physical possibilities. If you have everything going for you and train with perseverance the change you get 'fast hands' is very big.

Cheers,

GJ.