little kids doing mma (vid)

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2310042801340805866&q=pankration

[mysteri]

wow, that's great to see them start so young. i think it's great for kids to have a BIT of a more realistic interface to one-on-one combat than what's being taught in most of today's black-belt mills. i really feel it's extremely important that kids learn values and some realities at a younger age and that they really early on solidify their self-confidence. too many kids are bullied, my 12 y.o. cousin got beat up a few months ago(i was furious) and this poor 15 y.o. kid killed himself in a park around here the other day. i can't stress how important i feel it is in many aspects that kids so young have such a healthy outlet that can be so useful to them in the future, more than a lot of other recreational sports.

[Oso]

enh, we've had this discussion before but I don't agree with the contact strikes to the head for kids that small...especially w/ no head protection.

I don't think the guillotine is a good idea on little kids either.

we all recognize that full contact competition takes it's toll on the body. I think that there are probably developmental issues at risk in letting pre-pubescent kids practice and compete at full contact.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

these were my comments about this vid on another board:

just hearing about little ones doing submissions would scare me more the striking, but after watching it i guess it isnt that bad.

i'm just scared of injuries. i know that younger joints can take more abuse and be no worse for the wear, but 6 still seems a little young for sumissions. maybe 8 or 9. most of them looked a lot more controlled than i thought though.


i agree he appears to be very talented, as do the rest of them, but i also think these kids are the exception. i think most 6 year olds are a little too clumsy to be doing arm bars. they are a a bit more coordinated at 8 or so.

then again maybe he is 7 or 8. maybe little man is just short like me.

[neilhytholt]

Oh, man, that is some awesome stuff. Imagine the skill levels those kids will have 10-15 years from now.

It seems like this will bring MMA to a whole new level.

[Ray Pina]

It's great to see that these kids have real skills. I was quite the karate competitor as a little kid, but I didn't have a real sense of fighting the way these kids do.

At the same time, some of the neck locks worry me. But I guess I was just as vulnerable to getting kicked in the throat, had more thna my fair share of bloody noses, etc. So, I guess it's a good things.

PS
I don't think they allowed striking to the face. I only saw body shots with the occasional shot that looked like it was deflected towards the face.

[neilhytholt]

It's great to see that these kids have real skills. I was quite the karate competitor as a little kid, but I didn't have a real sense of fighting the way these kids do.

At the same time, some of the neck locks worry me. But I guess I was just as vulnerable to getting kicked in the throat, had more thna my fair share of bloody noses, etc. So, I guess it's a good things.

PS
I don't think they allowed striking to the face. I only saw body shots with the occasional shot that looked like it was deflected towards the face.

The thing that seems it could be a problem is the throws because they are going to the mat head first. Do that one wrong and you could have a broken neck, but of course these kids don't weigh that much and are pretty limber.

But man, this is so awesome that kids these young have real skills. I wish this was around when I was a kid and mommy would have let me do this.

[PangQuan]

I don't agree with the contact strikes to the head for kids that small...especially w/ no head protection.

i didnt see any head shots, looked like all body to me.

[Oso]

perhaps not....I looked again and still think I saw some in the first match shown and a knee in another match. maybe they are not supposed to and the refs didn't think these were close enough.

there is still a wicked as guillotine at 1:16

[chud]

i really feel it's extremely important that kids learn values and some realities at a younger age and that they really early on solidify their self-confidence. too many kids are bullied, my 12 y.o. cousin got beat up a few months ago(i was furious) and this poor 15 y.o. kid killed himself in a park around here the other day. i can't stress how important i feel it is in many aspects that kids so young have such a healthy outlet that can be so useful to them in the future, more than a lot of other recreational sports.

I was gonna say this, but you said it so well I thought I'd just repost your comments. :)

[Anthony]

"i think it's great for kids to have a BIT of a more realistic interface to one-on-one combat "

Yeah......one on one combat for children is right up there with piano lessons :rolleyes: . I can't wait til' my kid is 5 so I can ship him off to Iraq for some real experience.

Serioulsy though, I'm not so convinced that martial arts is for children at all. I don't think they are able to posess the morality for it and I think that there are much better ways to deal with bullies or to instill hard work and values. Just my thoughts.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

"i think it's great for kids to have a BIT of a more realistic interface to one-on-one combat "

Yeah......one on one combat for children is right up there with piano lessons :rolleyes: . I can't wait til' my kid is 5 so I can ship him off to Iraq for some real experience.

Serioulsy though, I'm not so convinced that martial arts is for children at all. I don't think they are able to posess the morality for it and I think that there are much better ways to deal with bullies or to instill hard work and values. Just my thoughts.

on the otherside of the spectrum i think all kids should be required to do at least a little sport fighting of some type by highschool at the latest. traditional full contact, boxing, wrestling, submission, whatever.

nothing builds confidence like realizing you can take an ass kicking.

[Anthony]

I agree with you. I would start it at about 12 or 13 years of age. I would also emphasize it more as a sport than "self-defense."

Competition, loosing and winning, are both parts of life that should be learned. I would say that how you loose is more important than how you win.

I feel that a 6 year old who knows how to choke out another kid might be too dangerous because at that age they are not able to discern when not to do it or worse, when to let go. It's common sense to me, like the same reason we don't let 6 year olds carry guns. No matter how much you teach them about it, they still can't be trusted alone with it.

[Ray Pina]

I feel that a 6 year old who knows how to choke out another kid might be too dangerous because at that age they are not able to discern when not to do it or worse, when to let go. It's common sense to me, like the same reason we don't let 6 year olds carry guns. No matter how much you teach them about it, they still can't be trusted alone with it.


This is not true. I started my training at 4 in Issin-Ryu. Now, I wasn't as skilled in fighting as these kids were, but by the time I was in 2nd and 3rd grade I had a pretty good kick and punch, was breaking boards well before 5th grade.

At the same time my sensei instilled me with a lot of disciple, bowing makes you humble, etc. The japanese systems, at least when I was a kid, instilled morality and discpline in you as well as technique.

[Anthony]

Ray, you have a point. Many (not all) children do have a real capacity to learn something the right way even at a very young age if it's taught and presented to them maturely. It's just that I don't feel that most schools today (with their "Karate-day camp" mentality) would instill that kind of responsibility into young children.

So, we'd probably end up with alot of kids getting their energy out by using moves that they are not responsible enough to use yet.

[Hard Fists]

i dunno. As a papa, it looks scary to me. No offense to anybody, but the parents of these kids must be a little nuts. I mean, I have no intention of letting my son go full contact, or even train to go real hard, until he is like 16--and only then if he pesters me until I break. I don't think anything good can come from an 8 or 12 year old beating someone's face in, getting their face beat in, or popin someone's shoulder...that would be messed up. IMO fighting full contact needs to be an adult decision, made by the adult that is competing.

[GeneChing]

I've heard of other MMA teen leagues starting. Six seems too young to me.

Ultimate Fights Expand to Include Kids (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5j0i6-DJeEQpXKJiVx2054FBCPnlQD8VLOI802)

By MARCUS KABEL – 4 hours ago

CARTHAGE, Mo. (AP) — Ultimate fighting was once the sole domain of burly men who beat each other bloody in anything-goes brawls on pay-per-view TV.

But the sport often derided as "human ****fighting" is branching out.

The bare-knuckle fights are now attracting competitors as young as 6 whose parents treat the sport as casually as wrestling, Little League or soccer.

The changes were evident on a recent evening in southwest Missouri, where a team of several young boys and one girl grappled on gym mats in a converted garage.

Two members of the group called the "Garage Boys Fight Crew" touched their thin martial-arts gloves in a flash of sportsmanship before beginning a relentless exchange of sucker punches, body blows and swift kicks.

No blood was shed. And both competitors wore protective gear. But the bout reflected the decidedly younger face of ultimate fighting. The trend alarms medical experts and sports officials who worry that young bodies can't withstand the pounding.

Tommy Bloomer, father of two of the "Garage Boys," doesn't understand the fuss.

"We're not training them for dog fighting," said Bloomer, a 34-year-old construction contractor. "As a parent, I'd much rather have my kids here learning how to defend themselves and getting positive reinforcement than out on the streets."

Bloomer said the sport has evolved since the no-holds-barred days by adding weight classes to better match opponents and banning moves such as strikes to the back of the neck and head, groin kicking and head butting.

Missouri appears to be the only state in the nation that explicitly allows the youth fights. In many states, it is a misdemeanor for children to participate. A few states have no regulations.

Supporters of the sport acknowledge that allowing fights between kids sounds brutal at first. But they insist the competitions have plenty of safety rules.

"It looks violent until you realize this teaches discipline. One of the first rules they learn is that this is not for aggressive behavior outside (the ring)," said Larry Swinehart, a Joplin police officer and father of two boys and the lone girl in the garage group.

The sport, which is also known as mixed martial arts or cage fighting, has already spread far beyond cable television. Last month, CBS became the first of the Big Four television networks to announce a deal to broadcast primetime fights. The fights have attracted such a wide audience, they are threatening to surpass boxing as the nation's most popular pugilistic sport.

Hand-to-hand combat is also popping up on the big screen. The film "Never Back Down," described as "The Karate Kid" for the YouTube generation, has taken in almost $17 million in two weeks at the box office. Another current mixed martial arts movie, "Flash Point," an import from Hong Kong, is in limited release.

Bloomer said the fights are no more dangerous or violent than youth wrestling. He watched as his sons, 11-year-old Skyler and 8-year-old Gage, locked arms and legs and wrestled to the ground with other kids in the garage in Carthage, about 135 miles south of Kansas City.

The 11 boys and one girl on the team range from 6 to 14 years old and are trained by Rudy Lindsey, a youth wrestling coach and a professional mixed martial arts heavyweight.

"The kids learn respect and how to defend themselves. It's no more dangerous than any other sport and probably less so than some," Lindsey said.

Lindsey said the children wear protective headgear, shin guards, groin protection and martial-arts gloves. They fight quick, two-minute bouts. Rules also prohibit any elbow blows and blows to the head when an opponent is on the ground.

"If they get in trouble or get bad grades, I'll hear about it and they can't come to training," he added.

In most states, mixed martial arts is overseen by boxing commissions. In Missouri, the Office of Athletics regulates the professional fights but not the amateur events, which include the youth bouts. For amateurs, the regulation is done by sanctioning bodies that have to register with the athletics office.

The rules are different in Oklahoma, where unauthorized fights are generally a misdemeanor offense. The penalty is a maximum 30 days in jail and a fine up to $1,000.

Joe Miller, administrator of the Oklahoma Professional Boxing Commission, said youth fights are banned in his state, and he wants it to stay that way.

"There's too much potential for damage to growing joints," he said.

Miller said mixed martial arts uses a lot of arm and leg twisting to force opponents into submission. Those moves, he said, pressure joints in a way not found in sanctioned sports like youth boxing or wrestling.

But Nathan Orand, a martial arts trainer from Tulsa, Okla., said kids are capable of avoiding injuries, especially with watchful referees in the rings. He thinks the sport is bound to grow.

"I can see their point because when you say 'cage fighting,' that right there just sounds like kids shouldn't be doing it," Orand said.

"But you still have all the respect that regular martial arts teach you. And it's really the only true way for youth to be able to defend themselves."

Back in the Carthage garage, Bloomer said parents shouldn't worry about kids becoming aggressive from learning mixed martial arts. He said his older son was picked on by bullies at school repeatedly last year but never fought them, instead reporting the problem to his teachers.

And fighters including his 8-year-old son get along once a bout is over, Bloomer said.

"When they get out of the cage, they go back and play video games together. It doesn't matter who won and who lost. They're still little buddies."

[sanjuro_ronin]

Personally I say eliminate the cage and it will do wonders for public perception and the olympic future prospect.

[MasterKiller]

They had 6 year olds fighting in Tulsa the last time we fought, and as a result of poor officiating during those boughts (the judges were allowing head striking on the ground) Oklahoma suspended all amateur MMA for 1 year. They just recently started it again, but it's for 18+ and up.

The Garage Boys fought in that fight, and I have to say, these sorts of back-yard clubs have no business bringing people into fight when they don't even have adequate facilities in which to train. There were several of these clubs fighting that night, and I really felt sorry for the kids. In many cases, they didn't have people to wrap their hands or even warm them up properly.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Any place that allows minors to box can, in theory, allow MMA IF it is not in a cage and if there is no GnP.
A case can be made for MMA under those circumstances, its basically a combination of Kick boxing and wrestling, both sports "sanctioned" by local sports jurisdictions.

[MasterKiller]

Any place that allows minors to box can, in theory, allow MMA IF it is not in a cage and if there is no GnP.
A case can be made for MMA under those circumstances, its basically a combination of Kick boxing and wrestling, both sports "sanctioned" by local sports jurisdictions.

Kids shouldn't be arm-barring one another, imo. I say 16+ is fine. Anything under that, and you better have HIGHLY restricted rules.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Kids shouldn't be arm-barring one another, imo. I say 16+ is fine. Anything under that, and you better have HIGHLY restricted rules.

I agree, hence a combination of wrestling and kick-boxing.
Some have been using that here to circumvent some of the "issues" with MMA.

[Becca]

You wouldn't let a kid drive a stock car just because they like NASCAR would you? Same with MMA. If a child is interested in it, then get them started off in something age appropriate like wrestling or one of the traditional martial arts. By the time they are in thier late teens, they will know if that is the right path for them and will have a skill set that will allow an easy transition into MMA. If not, they will still be healthy with no destroyed joints, trick knees or any other activity related disability.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You wouldn't let a kid drive a stock car just because they like NASCAR would you? Same with MMA. If a child is interested in it, then get them started off in something age appropriate like wrestling or one of the traditional martial arts. By the time they are in thier late teens, they will know if that is the right path for them and will have a skill set that will allow an easy transition into MMA. If not, they will still be healthy with no destroyed joints, trick knees or any other activity related disability.

Kids do judo and BJJ and wrestling, these sports don't effect the joints??

[1bad65]

The Garage Boys fought in that fight, and I have to say, these sorts of back-yard clubs have no business bringing people into fight when they don't even have adequate facilities in which to train. There were several of these clubs fighting that night, and I really felt sorry for the kids. In many cases, they didn't have people to wrap their hands or even warm them up properly.

That's exactly what worries me, incompetant instruction. One of my instructors has a kids BJJ class. He is a legit BJJ Brown Belt. He has never had a kid injured in class or competition.

But the 'MMA craze' is giving birth to these poseurs who open up gyms and have no business teaching. Sounds like these guys are part of the problem. It's bad enough when adults are fooled by a bs resume and train with these guys, but it's even worse when they teach kids.

[Shaolin Wookie]

It's a little Spartan, isn't it? I mean, if it's just a combo of MA and wrestling, it seems fine--as an activity. But venues and competition with ground striking, etc?

MMA might pride itself on its hardcore nature, but in terms of developmental psychology for kids? It's ridiculous........and I think this is just evidence of irresponsible parenting (by "irresponsible" I mean--pushing one's personal agenda onto a kid to do something one doesn't have the gall to do oneself). MMA requires a level of maturity. But like I said, if it's BJJ and MA, but with strict rules and regulations, with strict measures of "qualification" to keep out the wolves....I don't see an issue. Traditional MA's (including BJJ, etc.) do have ways of curbing bad behavior, and they require discipline. MMA might just be too.....well, there's not really a word for it.

I don't know of any MA group or educational institution that teaches kids the same way they teach adults.

Can you imagine a Punch Drunk teen? Kids just aren't built like fully-grown men...it's so obvious, it sounds ridiculous saying it. Plus, they're not independent, and they're not making their own health decisions. That's a big issue. I say: 18+.....no younger. Before that time, work on the arts you're going to eventually mix.

[MasterKiller]

Wookie, MMA is a sport, and legitimate MMA programs are run in the same vane as organized programs like wrestling, boxing, football etc.

If those programs can provide character building for youth, so can MMA. My concern is that young kids should be performing submissions on one another because their joints are not fully matured.

Your perception of MMA schools seems to be based on your exposure to fanboys online more than experience in a sport gym.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Wookie, MMA is a sport, and legitimate MMA programs are run in the same vane as organized programs like wrestling, boxing, football etc.

If those programs can provide character building for youth, so can MMA. My concern is that young kids should be performing submissions on one another because their joints are not fully matured.

Your perception of MMA schools seems to be based on your exposure to fanboys online more than experience in a sport gym.

I don't know about that. The key to winning MMA is not pinning, scoring, or tackling (take-down), it's the brutalization of your opponent or pain-compliance holds leading to tapouts.

I 100% agree MMA can be used to build character--and I think it does so even with many pro-MMA fighters. Just look at Tito Ortiz. He's become a fine member of society and has married a very respectable woman.

[MasterKiller]

I don't know about that. The key to winning MMA is not pinning, scoring, or tackling (take-down), it's the brutalization of your opponent or pain-compliance holds leading to tapouts.
You score points for landed and attempted techniques. That's how matches are decided in case of a non-submission or non-KO.


I 100% agree MMA can be used to build character--and I think it does so even with many pro-MMA fighters. Just look at Tito Ortiz. He's become a fine member of society and has married a very respectable woman. Check the "Busted Teachers" thread sometime.

Even SD produced at least one child rapist.

[Shaolin Wookie]

You score points for landed and attempted techniques. That's how matches are decided in case of a non-submission or non-KO.


Check the "Busted Teachers" thread sometime.

Even SD produced at least one child rapist.

LOL....because we all know it was the SD, and not bad genes and a messed up psyche (and probably a history of abuse).


**** you SHAOLIN-DO!

[1bad65]

Wookie, MMA is a sport, and legitimate MMA programs are run in the same vane as organized programs like wrestling, boxing, football etc.

If those programs can provide character building for youth, so can MMA. My concern is that young kids should be performing submissions on one another because their joints are not fully matured.

Your perception of MMA schools seems to be based on your exposure to fanboys online more than experience in a sport gym.

That was a very good post.

Every youth sport has the potential for injury. Even non-contact ones like gymnastics and swimming for example.

Like I said, my instructor is legit and keeps a very close eye on the kids when they perform submissions. Unlike an adult class, only 1 pair is rolling at a time for safety reasons. But again, is an instructor who really is not qualified to be teaching able to teach safely?

SW, what is your experience in MMA? Did you play youth sports? Does your gym have a kids class?

[Shaolin Wookie]

Explain this to me then, b/c I don't see it in the video--

Are there KO's and bloodied faces in kids' MMA? Now, even TKD tourneys have those happen every once and a while, but they're accidents--they're not the modus operandi of the actual sport.

Do you prevent those kinds of injuries by circumventing the usual "pound into submission" platform of MMA?

Yeah, kids have gotten hurt sparring at the school I attend. But again, they're accidents, and you can chalk them up to the "casualties of chance" that you can chalk up to any sport (there are injuries in every sport I've ever played, all of them by accident).

But we're talking about something different, if the point of the match is to hurt the other opponent, are we not? I'm saying, a kid is not physically or mentally in the same state as an adult, and requires a different agenda. It's why point-sparring is legit for kids--it's not about hurting someone, so much as playing a game of tag.

It's just a shame when adults never mature beyond that paradigm.

[1bad65]

Now, even TKD tourneys have those happen every once and a while, but they're accidents--they're not the modus operandi of the actual sport.

You know nothing about MMA or the training for MMA and you are showing it.

Do you prevent those kinds of injuries by circumventing the usual "pound into submission" platform of MMA?

You don't train 'alive' either do you? Newsflash: sparring is done at a much lower intensity that an actual bout. No one at my gym has ever been KO'd in training, but they have KO'd people in actual bouts. Amazing how that works. ;)

[MasterKiller]

Explain this to me then, b/c I don't see it in the video--

Are there KO's and bloodied faces in kids' MMA? Now, even TKD tourneys have those happen every once and a while, but they're accidents--they're not the modus operandi of the actual sport.

Do you prevent those kinds of injuries by circumventing the usual "pound into submission" platform of MMA?.

If you noticed in the video, Pankration rules doesn't permit the kids to strike the head at all. Hard to KO someone and bloody their face when you can't hit their head...

So, in that respect, it's not much different than wrestling + Olympic TKD, which are two very safe sports for kids.

[Ben Gash]

I find it somewhat disturbing to see kids doing stuff that wouldn't be allowed in many adult sub grappling tournaments. I mean that 6 year old got head spiked from a DDT, you can't even do that in UFC! I certainly have real issues with kids doing heel hooks, standing guillotines, neck cranks and G'n'P, all of which we saw there.

[1bad65]

certainly have real issues with kids doing heel hooks, standing guillotines, neck cranks and G'n'P, all of which we saw there.

Like MK said, that 'gym' is a bunch of idiots.

[MasterKiller]

Like MK said, that 'gym' is a bunch of idiots.

No, the video on the first post is kid's pankration. It's not the Garage Boys.

[Becca]

Kids do judo and BJJ and wrestling, these sports don't effect the joints??Do you really think parents would still be taking thier kids there en-mass if the kids' joints were getting destroyed? The schools would have been shut down due to law suites. A school that's been open for 20 something years with no lawsuiets from former students is one of my favorite ways to "check out" a school. Do the traditional arts affect joints? yes, but so does walking. My point was that the kids will have healthy joints if they wait till late teens to use the skill sets needed for MMA. This is the same reason I don not think children should do any sort of weight program untill thier late teens.

[Black Jack II]

Because of the submission issue, I am against it for kids this young. Not just that but yes, MMA like all other combative sports can help build character, but the other sports have a MUCH LONGER track record of doing so and in my view are much safer from a psychological and physical perspective at this time.

Not to say you can't have your kids do MMA when they are older, teens, but younger that that seem's to be more of a macho play.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Do you really think parents would still be taking thier kids there en-mass if the kids' joints were getting destroyed? The schools would have been shut down due to law suites. A school that's been open for 20 something years with no lawsuiets from former students is one of my favorite ways to "check out" a school. Do the traditional arts affect joints? yes, but so does walking. My point was that the kids will have healthy joints if they wait till late teens to use the skill sets needed for MMA. This is the same reason I don not think children should do any sort of weight program untill thier late teens.

Again, Judo and wrestling do it, sure their are rules in place to keep certain moves out.
Point being is kids can do boxing and KB ( strikes) and they can do judo and wrestling ( grappling) , there is no reason that they can't do both is there?
Adapt the same rules that keep kids safe in those sports to MMA and eliminate the GnP or any striking when down.

[GeneChing]

This is becoming our Kids & MMA thread. Should I change the title?
Mixed martial arts growing in popularity with kids (http://www.ksby.com/Global/story.asp?S=8085568)
Posted: March 28, 2008 01:32 PM
Reported by: Rob Carlmark

Mixed martial arts is among the fastest growing sports in America and it is attracting fans of all ages, including kids.

YouTube has dozens of videos of younger kids fighting in the organized sport that some people find shocking.

At The Pit mixed martial arts training center in Arroyo Grande, kids' colorings are right next to the gear. They have more than 300 kids training locally at their gyms, and their "Pit Master" says he helps them get strong physically and mentally, while staying safe.

"It is not a very dangerous sport. It is very well regulated, just like the pros. MMA is much safer than boxing or other sports, and our kids just don't get hurt," said John Hackleman, mixed martial arts trainer at The Pit.

John Hackleman says he has seen only one minor injury in seven years of training with kids.

More Children Learning Mixed Martial Arts (http://www.kmbc.com/news/15736817/detail.html)
POSTED: 5:55 pm CDT March 28, 2008
UPDATED: 6:23 pm CDT March 28, 2008

INDEPENDENCE, Mo. -- Ultimate fighting isn't just grownup guys trading punches on Pay-Per-View anymore.

The sport is so popular that children as young as 6 are learning, KMBC's Maria Antonia reported.

Instructors at Xtreme Couture Fitness in Independence said there is a right way and a wrong way for children to get into mixed martial arts, which is a combination of martial arts, wrestling and boxing.

Lead instructor John Cornett said that when children start out, they are not allowed to hit each other.

"We don't allow our kids to even spar or make contact with each other," Cornett said.

Medical experts said if children are allowed to cage-fight, it can lead to significant injuries to the neck, bones and ligaments.

Cornett said martial arts requires a lot of training and teaches children discipline.

"If they're able to sit in class, and learn how to read, learn how to do critical thinking, I think they're able to learn how to do a martial art," Cornett.

Meanwhile, the adult version of ultimate fighting is incredibly intense.

"It's raw competition. It's two men in a cage, going at each other, and it's whoever's the best athlete," Cornett said.

One critic of ultimate fighting called it "human ****fighting."

An Associated Press survey found that Missouri may be the only state that explicitly allows youth fights. In other states, it is a misdemeanor, and some states have no regulations.

[Becca]

Again, Judo and wrestling do it, sure their are rules in place to keep certain moves out.
Point being is kids can do boxing and KB ( strikes) and they can do judo and wrestling ( grappling) , there is no reason that they can't do both is there?
Adapt the same rules that keep kids safe in those sports to MMA and eliminate the GnP or any striking when down.
Yes, they can. but they, by and large, do not have the mental framework to stop before maiming. kids shoot kids with guns because they don't spo and think of the outcome before the outcome is in thier face. with some pscycotic sport-parent behind them, a kid with MMA skills would, not could, would be much worse becuase guns are obviously weepons and MMA is sport when used right... but a weopon when used wrong. Some 10-year-olds have the mental framework to tell dad to shove it when dear old dad tells little johnny to "slip" and take out a knee... but most don't. and that kind of disgusting behavior is already prevelant in kids TMA. So by all meens, lets add even more variables, even more technically demanding techniques and see how well little johnny can juggle before something gets missed and he or his opponant end up in a body cast.........

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes, they can. but they, by and large, do not have the mental framework to stop before maiming. kids shoot kids with guns because they don't spo and think of the outcome before the outcome is in thier face. with some pscycotic sport-parent behind them, a kid with MMA skills would, not could, would be much worse becuase guns are obviously weepons and MMA is sport when used right... but a weopon when used wrong. Some 10-year-olds have the mental framework to tell dad to shove it when dear old dad tells little johnny to "slip" and take out a knee... but most don't. and that kind of disgusting behavior is already prevelant in kids TMA. So by all meens, lets add even more variables, even more technically demanding techniques and see how well little johnny can juggle before something gets missed and he or his opponant end up in a body cast.........

That view must be applied to ALL sport systems for it to hold any merit whatsoever.

Fact is, those things don't happen in Judo, or boxing or wrestling, why would they happen in MMA ?

Again, if one follows the rules of the major sports that have been formulted for kids to keep them safe and competitive, there is no reason not to have the same results in MMA:

Allow strikes with protective gear - Boxing and KB
Allow throws and takedowns - wrestling and judo
Alow pins and submissions(after a certain age and "ranking" - wrestling and judo.

You are not doing anything that isn't already being done.

[Oso]

you're going to have psyco parents in any sport (not to mention things like 5 year old beauty pagents:mad:) and the one that suffers the most from that is the kid.

bad kids are going to do bad things with whatever they know, just like adults.

i think the most cogent point is that limitations need to be placed on techniques based on the physiology of kids and there are probably not enough people paying attention to that who can really make a professionally based opinion.

[Becca]

That view must be applied to ALL sport systems for it to hold any merit whatsoever.

Fact is, those things don't happen in Judo, or boxing or wrestling, why would they happen in MMA ?

Again, if one follows the rules of the major sports that have been formulted for kids to keep them safe and competitive, there is no reason not to have the same results in MMA:

Allow strikes with protective gear - Boxing and KB
Allow throws and takedowns - wrestling and judo
Alow pins and submissions(after a certain age and "ranking" - wrestling and judo.

You are not doing anything that isn't already being done.
I do hold that veiw with every sport. Kids need good teachers, more so than adults. If I felt an MMA teacher was very good at teaching children, I'd let my kids do MMA at a young age. I only know a few matial arts teachers who I trust to teach my kids, and only one of those does MMA. He even recomends kids start off with wrestling or other, more traditional arts.

I have also seen kids in sports who shouldn't be in them because of thier parents.

[jackmcmanus21]

I don't have a problem with it as long as there are good refs and coaches involved. Kids are going to get hit in the head a few times in their life....its not a bad thing for them to toughen up a bit.

[GeneChing]

...deserves legislation to ban. :rolleyes:

Lawmakers' proposal takes aim at mixed martial arts (http://www.joplinglobe.com/local/local_story_095002929.html)
By Derek Spellman
dspellman@joplinglobe.com

Two local lawmakers have proposed legislation that would ban mixed martial arts competitions for people younger than 18 in the wake of reports that youngsters have taken up the sport.

But a local man who teaches mixed martial arts to youngsters in Carthage said the proposal stems from a lack of understanding of the sport and the reasons why it has utilized a cage in competitions.

Rep. Bryan Stevenson, R-Webb City, one of the measure’s co-sponsors, acknowledged that the bill “may be a bit broad” as currently written, but he defended it as an initial step in bringing oversight to a largely unregulated sport that he said poses risks of injury to children.

Missouri appears to be the only state in the nation that explicitly allows the youth fights. A few states have no regulations, and most other states have deemed it a crime for children to participate.

Stevenson said he has seen video clips of youth fights, some of whose members are part of the Garage Boys Fight Crew based in Carthage. The group has 11 boys and one girl ranging from 6 to 14 years old. Critics of the sport have contended that mixed martial arts employs arm- and leg-twisting maneuvers that put pressure on joints in a way not found in sanctioned sports like youth boxing or wrestling.

“I’m very concerned,” Stevenson said of what he saw on the clips. “I’m very concerned that some of the activities border on child endangerment.”

Members of the Garage Boys Fight Crew are trained by Rudy Lindsey, a youth wrestling coach and a professional mixed martial arts heavyweight.

Lindsey and his school were the subject of an Associated Press article published late last month. Stevenson said he had begun investigating regulations on operations like Lindsey’s several weeks before the article broke, and he received numerous calls from constituents decrying the program after the article’s publication.

“We ban dogfighting and rooster fighting, but we are sticking kids in a cage,” Stevenson said. “Something is wrong with that.”

But Lindsey said neither the bill’s proponents nor critics have taken time to understand mixed martial arts and what it teaches young people.

“It’s not about beating each other up or about winning and losing,” he said.

Lindsey defended the sport as one that takes place in a safe, controlled environment featuring adult supervision, protective gear, and strict rules for behavior both inside and outside the class. Lindsey argued that the class instills discipline, self-restraint and self-esteem. One student, for example, let his grades slip and was not allowed to train until he revived them, he said.

Lindsey said his young students have participated in more than a half-dozen competitions without any injuries.

[yenhoi]

Sean Hannity took a swing at MMA and specifically MMA for kids on Sunday.

http://www.foxnews.com/hannitysamerica/

Couldent find a more specific link.

:eek:

[GeneChing]

I'm finding this to be a really fascinating story now.
Parent reacts to proposed fighting ban (http://www.carthagepress.com/news/x2084320851)
By John Hacker
Carthage Press
Mon Apr 07, 2008, 11:41 AM CDT
CARTHAGE, Mo. -

Two local lawmakers have proposed banning mixed martial arts fighting, but a Carthage parent says those lawmakers are overreacting.

State Reps. Steve Hunter, representing Carthage and northwest Jasper County, and Bryan Stephenson, representing Webb City and Joplin, introduced House Bill 2518 on March 31. The bill would change the rules regarding boxing and wrestling to ban mixed martial arts fighting, sometimes known as “cage fighting” by children under 18 years old.

Carthage parent Larry Swinehart, has two boys and a girl who participate in the Garage Boys Fight Crew, a mixed martial arts cage-fighting club that meets just east of Carthage.

A recent news article by the Associated Press gained national and even international attention for the Garage Boys Fight Crew, but it also brought controversy when doctors said some of the moves used in cage fighting are dangerous to young people. Swinehart said the AP article portrayed their group inaccurately.

“You guys came and did an article on us, the Joplin Globe came and did an article about us, no one had a problem until the reporter came from the Associated Press and submitted an article to the ‘Washington Post’ and put a very, very liberal skew on it and actually lied throughout the biggest part of it,” Swinehart said. “We were portrayed as monsters and participating in barbaric acts. That was my biggest problem, if they had simply told the story as it truly existed, it would have been no news, it would have ended with the articles in the Press and the Globe.”

Hunter introduced the bill with Stephenson as a co-sponsor.

Stephenson said he would like to hear from the Swineharts and others involved in the local group, he’s concerned about children being placed in unsafe situations. He said doctors have told him that some of the holds in mixed martial arts fighting can cause permanent damage to young joints.

“I’d be happy to meet with them,” Stephenson said. “I want to learn how they’re conducting the sport, I want to make sure that the division of children’s services is convinced that this is not child abuse and I want to make sure that there are proper regulations and safety precautions. I want to make sure that the holds and the moves that the young people are using are not long-term damaging. I’m reviewing news articles from all over the country about this issue. This is an issue in 22 jurisdictions across the country and I’m reading some very disturbing reports about things that are going on. For example, we have a report of an event that happened in Omaha, Neb. where a young man was kicked in the face and passed out standing up, and the referee did not stop the fight. I’ve read of another instance where a young man was on the mat and was pummeled to the point where his face was bloody and he was still staggering and unable to walk properly several minutes after the fight.”

Hunter said he shares Stephenson’s concerns.

“You watch this cage fighting on television, and that to me has gone way over the edge,” Hunter said. “If we’ve got some over-exuberent parents putting their kids in that kind of situation, and there are some, you could really cause some problems for some one who sticks their kid in there who is not as exuberant.

“I am not a person who just jumps into something to try to get the state power. I think the state and federal governments have enough power anyway.”

Swinehart said the children wear the same protective head-, hand- and groin- protection as boxers and referees watch every match.

“What they’re seeing is the adult cage fighting from the early 80s where it was true bare knuckles and they’re punching people in the head when they’re down, which is forbidden in martial arts and they’re using elbows, which is forbidden,” Swinehart said. “They don’t today wear head protection in the adult league, but it’s required for youth. The children wear the same headgear they use in boxing.”

Swinehart said he fears driving the sport underground where there would be no safety regulation.

“There needs to be a governing board to oversee it,” Swinehart said. “There needs to be a commission, otherwise what will happen, and my biggest fear is, and my kids won’t participate because I’ve sworn to uphold the law, but my biggest fear is that lesser people will do what was done years ago when fight were held in basements and farms out back and things of that nature. They won’t have the doctors’ physicals before the fights, there won’t be paramedics on scene, there won’t be professional referees there to over see it. It will simply be people who have no training in it and people will get hurt doing it. That’s my biggest fear.”

Both Stephenson and Hunter said they would be open to creating a sanctioning board for the sport as long as doctors say the sport itself is not dangerous.

“My intent is not to ban it,” Hunter said. “My intent is to make sure that it is properly sanctioned.”

Note: The Carthage School District and the Carthage Youth Wrestling Club are in no way connected with the Garage Boys Fight Crew and mixed martial arts. Larry Swinehart said some people have come to believe that the city or the school district are sponsoring the group, but that’s not true.

“The school district and the wrestling clubs have nothing to do with this group,” Swinehart said. “They have nothing to do with it, no practices have ever been held at the wrestling building.”

[GeneChing]

Looks like this is an issue across the pond too.

Child kick boxing slammed (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1065675.ece)
By Staff reporter
Published: 20 Apr 2008

A VETERAN martial arts teacher has criticised a craze for children as young as five to fight each other in kick boxing clubs.

Mark Lutman, a martial arts teacher with 30 years experience, said some forms of the sport were not suitable for children.

He said: “Some martial arts lend themselves to children participating and some don’t.

“I started out aged seven or eight doing judo which has that rough and tumble appeal to kids and obviously is done on mats.

“The danger in children participating in martial arts is they don’t have the skills you need to have self-control.”

‘ They’re having a laugh. It’s fun ’

A Channel 4 documentary Strictly Baby Fight Club to be aired on Thursday shows children aged five and six fighting each other.

Lisa Flanagan, whose five-year-old daughter Miah features in the show, told the News of the World it could be upsetting to see her in the ring.

She said: “It’s about learning respect and discipline. It also keeps them fit. They’re having a laugh. It’s fun.”

Strictly Baby Fight Club will be shown on Channel 4 at 9pm on Thursday.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It goes back to the issue of what is available and allowed right now.
If children are allowed to box then why not kick box?
If they are allowed judo and wrestling, why not submission wrestling?
If they are allowed those things, why not MMA?

The crux of the problem is that special rules and age limits are needed and as usual, some over zelous fool seeing an opportunity to make a buck decided to go out and do it without thinking it through and voila, instant baby fight club.

How many people would have issues with MMA if it was NOT in a cage, the kids were all over 10 (for example), no GnP and no chokes or leg locks?
basically all they could do is kick, punch with gloves and head gear and chest gear perhaps, and they could throw and take down ( no slams) and they could pin and do limited locks?

I think that very few people woudl have issues with kids doing MMA if it was done correctly from the very beginning.

[GeneChing]

little buddies indeed. that's just too skipper/gilligan for me.
Youngest 'ultimate' fighters (http://www.dailylocal.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20091075&BRD=1671&PAG=461&dept_id=635533&rfi=6)
By MARCUS KABEL
08/26/2008

Ultimate fighting was once the sole domain of burly men who beat each other bloody in anything-goes brawls.
But the mixed martial art sport often derided as "human ****fighting" is branching out.
The bare-knuckle fights are now attracting competitors as young as 6 whose parents treat the sport as casually as wrestling or soccer.
The changes were evident on a recent evening in Carthage, Mo., where a team of several young boys and one girl grappled on gym mats in a converted garage.
Two members of the group called the "Garage Boys Fight Crew" touched their thin martial-arts gloves in a flash of sportsmanship before beginning a relentless exchange of sucker punches, body blows and swift kicks.
No blood was shed. And both competitors wore protective gear. But the bout reflected the decidedly younger face of ultimate fighting. The trend alarms medical experts and sports officials who worry that young bodies cannot withstand the pounding.
Tommy Bloomer, father of two of the "Garage Boys," does not understand the fuss.
"We're not training them for dog fighting," said Bloomer, a 34-year-old construction contractor. "As a parent, I'd much rather have my kids here learning how to defend themselves and getting positive reinforcement than out on the streets."
Bloomer said the sport has evolved since the no-holds-barred days by adding weight classes to better match opponents and banning moves such as strikes to the back of the neck and head, groin kicking and head butting.
Missouri appears to be the only state in the nation that explicitly allows the youth fights. In many states, it is a misdemeanor for children to participate. A few states have no regulations.
Supporters of the sport acknowledge that allowing fights between kids sounds brutal at first. But they insist the competitions have plenty of safety rules.
"It looks violent until you realize this teaches discipline. One of the first rules they learn is that this is not for aggressive behavior outside (the ring)," said Larry Swinehart, a Joplin police officer and father of two boys and the lone girl in the garage group.
The sport, which is also known as cage fighting, has already spread far beyond cable television. Earlier this year, CBS became the first of the Big Four U.S. television networks to announce a deal to broadcast primetime fights. The fights have attracted such a wide audience, they are threatening to surpass boxing as America's most popular pugilistic sport.
Hand-to-hand combat is alBloomer said the fights are no more dangerous or violent than youth wrestling. He watched as his sons, 11-year-old Skyler and 8-year-old Gage, locked arms and legs and wrestled to the ground with other kids in the garage in Carthage, about 135 miles south of Kansas City.
The 11 boys and one girl on the team range from 6 to 14 years old and are trained by Rudy Lindsey, a youth wrestling coach and a professional mixed martial arts heavyweight.
"The kids learn respect and how to defend themselves. It's no more dangerous than any other sport and probably less so than some," Lindsey said.
Lindsey said the children wear protective headgear, shin guards, groin protection and martial-arts gloves. They fight quick, two-minute bouts. Rules also prohibit any elbow blows and blows to the head when an opponent is on the ground.
In most states, mixed martial arts is overseen by boxing commissions. In Missouri, the Office of Athletics regulates the professional fights but not the amateur events, which include the youth bouts. For amateurs, the regulation is done by sanctioning bodies that have to register with the athletics office.
The rules are different in Oklahoma, where unauthorized fights are generally a misdemeanor offense. The penalty is a maximum 30 days in jail and a fine up to $1,000.
Joe Miller, administrator of the Oklahoma Professional Boxing Commission, said youth fights are banned in his state, and he wants it to stay that way.
"There's too much potential for damage to growing joints," he said.
Miller said mixed martial arts uses a lot of arm and leg twisting to force opponents into submission. Those moves, he said, pressure joints in a way not found in sanctioned sports like youth boxing or wrestling.
Back in the Missouri garage, Bloomer said parents should not worry about kids becoming aggressive from learning mixed martial arts. He said his older son was picked on by bullies at school repeatedly last year but never fought them, instead reporting the problem to his teachers.
And fighters including his 8-year-old son get along once a bout is over, Bloomer said.
"When they get out of the cage, they go back and play video games together. It doesn't matter who won and who lost. They're still little buddies."

[Water Dragon]

I don't agree with the idea of kids doing MMA for a couple reasons. I started my youngest in Judo at 4, but they cannot do chokes until 13 or subs until 17 in a Judo contest. I'm starting to teach my oldest Muay Thai at 12, and don' really want him sparring until 14. His brain still isnt developed fully at 12, and I'm not taking the chance. That's my job, I'm his Father. The fights in that video looked basically like they lifted adult rules and applied them to the kiddos. If that's the case, that's just plain wrong AND dumb.

The other reason is I'm a big believer that if you start with a solid base and then do MMA, you'll be a better fighter. It's better to be a Jack of all trades, master of one than Jack of all trades, master of none.