Monk Ching Cho Woe Serng

[hskwarrior]

Nah Eddie, the information is already on my links pages (in Chinese) and if anyon wanted to all they have to do is copy and paste either the chinese characters of Hung SIng CLF or just CLF and do a google search. there's lots of information from many different resources.

As I've said already, at the time of the Japanese Invasion of the late 1930's (i guess do to all the destrcution and clean up) the actual ancestral tablets with Monk Ching Cho's name on it, as well as some Kuen Po's were excavated, possibly by HSK Manager Huang ShenJiang but he is the one who mentions the discovery of it.

As we all know the King Mui branch claims that all of a sudden after 150 or more years discovered that Monk Ching Cho was actually Monk Choy Fook. However they have no more information on him than that. You can check the CLF chan family site in China to see if they say more but they don't. Remember, at one point he didn't exist. Now he does.

However, the disciples of Jeong Hung Sing passed down their oral history mouth to mouth. Most of the people in southern China couldn't read or write so the only way they could was orally.

The Fut San branch has way more information on the Green Grass Monk than the CHan family because the Green Grass Monk was Jeong Yim's sifu. Now, the Old Greenie went by other names like Monk Um Ging, and Cai DeZhong (tsai De Jung or Choy DakJung). Cai DeZHong IS one of the 5 founding ancestors of the Hung Mun (the second coming). Historical data discovered while performing raids and capturing certain people have confiscated actual literature, ceremonial, and such about the Hung Mun, something all members must carry with them to be identified by another (aside of their secret hand signs).

anyways, the second coming of the Hung Mun secret society was recorded as being in the late 1760's. With the record of Jeong Yim stating that at the age of 17 (1831) he went to the Green Grass Monk because of being Kicked out of the CHan Family Kwoon. So when asked, yes, it was completely possible and most likely probable that Jeong Yim's account of the Green Grass Monk is true.

Now, after Jeong Yim completed his training with Monk Ching Cho, as we all know and heard before, he changed Jeong Yim's name and replaced it with Hung Sing.
The Hung used was the one of the Hung Society with the word Victory in it. Most men who followed the Hung Mun back then added the Hung to their names. So Monk Ching CHo since he was the head guy of the Hung Mun, used a name for Jeong Yim to reflect the revolutionary ideal of that time.

Monk Ching Cho then instructed Jeong Yim to go to Fut San and contact the heads of the Fut San Hung Mun headquarters, join in the revolution and train the members of their organizations. Jeong Hung Sing became one of the main Gung Fu instructors.

As well, I'm not saying there wasn't any Chan Family people in Fut San teaching Chan Heungs Choy Lee Fut. But I don't believe that Chan Heung sent him to take over the blind guys gung fu studio. What I believe is after Jeong Yim shared Monk Ching Cho's gung fu with Chan Heung, he obeyed his last sifu and told Chan Heung he was going to Fut San, and that's when Chan Heung told Jeong Hung Sing to take over that school.

Jeong Yim was going to Fut San regardless to contact the Fut San Hung Mun. So what better deal could you get? Thats when Jeong Yim went and opened the Hung Sing Kwoon. Now, from what I understand is that Jeong Yim changed the name of CHan Heung's school and used his own name. Most likely since he was a member of the Hung Mun now.

Ever since, Jeong Yim's Hung SIng Kwoon was been deeply connected to the Hung Mun secret society. The head of that secret society was Cai Dezhong, (the green grass monk) as well as being Jeong Yim's last sifu. Proof of the connection to the Fut San Hung Mun is the set up of the alter.

In some of the King Mui photo's of their school, i only saw a large table with Chan Heung's picture above it. If Chan Heung was a member (which i doubt) then it doesn't show in the set up of his school. However, Jeong Yim's school is widely known for its revolutionary involvements, and you can see in the photo (i'll try to post the photo later) that Jeong Yim's schools alter is set up like this.......there the table, the photo or image or whatever to represent Jeong Hung Sing , and in front of the table is two chairs. one for the sifu, and one for his disciple. that was common throughout southern china and in most styles, but most southern styles were in one way or another involved with the hung mun or the relovution.

Jeong Yim's secong generation disciples sich as Liang Hui Hua, Qian Wei Fang, Wu Qin, and others were heavily involved in the fight. Wu Qin was Dr Sun Yat Sen's personal bodyguard.

well, thats all for now,

look forward to hearing from most and i do mean most not all of you.

hsk

[Fu-Pow]

Cai Ze Dong was not the Ching Cho Wo Sheurn.

[hskwarrior]

Fu Pow,

Sit in the back of the class and Shut up.

maybe you'll learn something.

[Fu-Pow]

Fu Pow,

Sit in the back of the class and Shut up.

maybe you'll learn something.

You could only tell me that if you were the teacher.

So what are your credentials to teach history?

(ie what University did you study history at that would qualify you teach it.....or alternatively, what credentialed historians did you discuss your version of the history with?)

[hskwarrior]

if you don't like the class you are welcome to go to another.

or else, sit down, shut the eff up, and takes notes young jedi.

Empty your cup, there's more of the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon juice for you waiting to be poured down your throat.

hsk

Now, SHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! I'm teaching.

[Fu-Pow]

If I don't agree with what you are "teaching" then I'm welcome to disagree with it too.

Frank, you're not a teacher, you're a preacher....an hung-sing evangelical. Your name should be hskpreacher not hskwarrior.

[hskwarrior]

quiet down........i'm sharing knowledge with the people who are interested.

(i don't care if YOU don't agree with what i'm teaching. You are NO ONE to me, and way, way, way, way..........my JR. for me to worry about you little brother.)

Here's a little something in regards to the Tai Ping Rebellion.........

In Taiping revolutionize, Cailifu doors are important organizers and participants. One of the founders of Taiping Heavenly Kingdom, named Pingyunshan, Chen enjoy along Long before the disciples son. Chen enjoyed in Dandakai Department served Muke, Long is the son of the Taiping army generals. Foshan Hung Yen Museum founder and Taiping revolutionize the important players. According to the records, Sheng Museum was founded in Xian Feng year (1851) (one said 1856), it is Taiping revolutionize breaks out, the establishment of Lion Museum is to echo the revolution, according to Chen enjoy the Memorial Association records : "rule together three years (Year 1864) : : June 15, Zeng Guofan, Kuo Hsi broken Nanjing, hunt down remaining confederates. Zhang starry night Shengzhou arrived U.S. townships and their public and put inward, and combine local Chen Tien Tong as battalion in the Western District of the Villa, an American by the San Francisco Chen of the cases will be recruited in Peru-for, say, asking Chang to beat the word 'belch' and emphasize the 'or', a foot of the 'magic' for cipher, Gai for avoiding tiger is roaring. "In addition, Sheng Museum Ping taught him is the main Chinese boxing team, player, while playing, which Ping boxing, sword contain "Taiping Heavenly Kingdom, Changan Man Nin" is also visible adding relations with the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom.
Recently, we found the doors were Tangdong giant Lion Museum (Felix Jesus) wrote the Lion Museum history, many will Cailifo him as "white group", "white technology", "white" refers to the Taiping army might (Qing government said Taiping army as "Long Hair"). According to the study, Taiping army general use Chinese boxing, equipment is Cailifo Chinese boxing and combat effectiveness of good. Now we inherited from the Chinese boxing from the Lion Museum, appliances replaced, many still see as their race technique used for attacking.

[hskwarrior]

if you keep disrupting my class, then i will have to call security and escort you off the premises.

thank you for your cooperation.

sincerely,

HSK, the FUT SAN HSK evangelist.

the one who Fu POw hates because he tells the truth about the real fut san hsk. not the chan clan version of the HSK. (which is wrong)>


sucka

[hskwarrior]

Tell Me What University On The Face Of This Earth Offers Up Choy Lee Fut Research In Their Curriculum And I Will Produce You A Certificate Of My Credentials.

There May Be Popular Researchers Who May Research The History Of Clf, But There Are No Schools That Teach That.

We Do That On Our Own Accord And Come Up With Things.

For Example, I Have Produced More On The Green Grass Monk Than Anyone Else Here Including The Chan Family.

It Is Truek, Choy Fook Is Not Ching Cho Like The Chan Family Now Claim.

Prespostorous.

[hskwarrior]

Anyways Folks,

In All Of Guandong Until From 1839-1949 Jeong Hung Sing's Hung Sing Kwoon Was The Largest And Most Structured Schools Of Chinese Gung Fu.

Then During Chan Ngau Sing's Time The Hung Sing Kwoon Was Spreading Like Wild Fire. His Fighting Reputation Was Fierce. He Had More Than 10,000 Students Under Him And A Total Of 13 Different Branches.

Although Chan Ngau Sing Was Against Public Lion Dancing For The Hung Sing Kwoon, He Was The Head Master Of The Lui Chung Lion Dance Society Along With Another One In Which All The Members Were All Secretly Hung Sing Kwoon Members.

Well, I Think Its About Time People Started Discussing Fut San Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut History. For Far Too Long Our Story Has Been Kept Within Our Own Schools And Never Told To The Public. No One Ever Wrote It Down Either. However There Is The 100 Year Article On The Fut San Hsk, But The History Of Our Branch Is Also Recorded In The "historical Accounts Of Guandong Martial Arts."

Thats All For Now.

Thanks For Checking Out Our Little Discussion


Hsk

[Fu-Pow]

Tell Me What University On The Face Of This Earth Offers Up Choy Lee Fut Research In Their Curriculum And I Will Produce You A Certificate Of My Credentials.

How 'bout just a history degree? Or maybe east asian studies? Hey, maybe if you could even read Chinese that would be a start.......I mean if you want people to take your research seriously.



There May Be Popular Researchers Who May Research The History Of Clf, But There Are No Schools That Teach That.

We Do That On Our Own Accord And Come Up With Things.

For Example, I Have Produced More On The Green Grass Monk Than Anyone Else Here Including The Chan Family.

Propaganda is not the same thing as historical research.



It Is Truek, Choy Fook Is Not Ching Cho Like The Chan Family Now Claim.

Prespostorous.

Ching Cho Wo Sheun may or may not be Choy Fook, but I'm 99% sure he is not Cai Zi Dong.

[hskwarrior]

99% is stupidity, while the truth for you lies in the 1%

ingoramous

[hskwarrior]

cai de zhong is the founder of the hung mun, he went by the name ching cho, he sent jeong yim to join with the fut san hung mun. the hung mun was founded by Cai Dezhong in the late 1700's.

if you think 99% sure, prove it. show me something that has his birthdate on it.

i got more on him than you can provide me with to change my view.

you suck dude. realize that.

[hskwarrior]

Many many thousands of Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon members were all invovled in the revolutions. Especially when it came to the Japanese invasion. The Hung Sing Kwoon was commemorated for their involvement for battling the Japanese.

well here's a link from a guangong newpaper about those terrible things Japanese did to the chinese back then.

pretty cruel.

http://www.newsgd.com/specials/60thanniversaryofwaragainstjapaneseaggression/oldphotos/200508240064.htm

[hskwarrior]

http://www.newsgd.com/specials/60thanniversaryofwaragainstjapaneseaggression/oldphotos/200508240078.htm

[Fu-Pow]

Aah...yes now I remember this discussion came up before..... didn't Cai Ze Dong live in the 1600's or something, making it impossible for him to be Ching Cho Wo Sheun?

[hskwarrior]

Fu Pow,

when the Premier of china instructs a hung sing man to write the story and make sure the green grass monk is mentioned ..... i think that goes beyond just a branch of choy lee fut telling the story.

You see, the one thing you are forgetting, is Jeong Yim's HSK was heavily, i mean heavily involved with the Hung Mun, whose founder is Cai Dezhong. The Hung Mun was re-founded by Tsai Ta Chung, and actual lilterature discovered during raids on wanted members say the Hung Mun is founded around the late 1760's.

I've seen the 1600's sheet, and kept searching. I've come up with stuff that tells of the actual founding.

But Fu Pow, i know this green grass monk has your panties in a bunch, and it means that you will have to start recognizing the truth,

you have nothing to disprove me. at all. show me something more than some bs that says cai dezhong truly existed in the 1600's. you can't.


hsk

[hskwarrior]

and he said "or something".......

what was it fu pow? 1600's or something? maybe that something is the late 1700's.

we know you only dispute it because it leaves you on shaky ground.


i'm done arguing with an idiot who cannot challenge my research one bit.

stay ingorant .

[Fu-Pow]

Well, according another "official history" there is no mention of the Ching Cho Wo Sheun or Cai Ze Dong.

http://www.tyj.gd.gov.cn/shengzhi/docc/3th/jie12.htm

[Fu-Pow]

Ok here we go....Something from extrajoseph:



Hi Frank,

It is really unfortunate that the historian of your branch told you that the Green Grass Monk was the same person as Cai De-Zhong, one of the five legendary founder of the Hung Mun Secret Society, because it is written in the Hung Mun Ji (the History of the Hung Mun) that Cai served the famous General Zheng Cheng-Gong from about 1661 - 1672 and the the society was founded in around 1680, almost 150 years before Chan Heung founded CLF, so there is no way the GGM could have taught Jeong Yim, they lived more than 100 years apart! Besides, there is no proof that Cai actually existed, he was a figure in the Hung Mun story made famous by later day fiction writers.

In case you need evidence, I have snipped out the relevant bit from the official history of the Qing Dynasty, you need a Chinese reader to read it and I have underlined the name and the dates. The quote came from this website:

http://www.qinghistory.cn/qinghistor...articleid=2640

清史研究
哥老会起源:
1947年朱琳在《洪门志》中，又进一步发挥了这一说法。称洪门“起于汉留”，始祖为殷洪盛，山西平阳府太 平县人，明崇祯四年进士。清初，奉史可法之命至北京窥探清廷虚实，沿途遍访志士顾炎武、王夫之、傅青主、黄 梨洲诸人，议创汉留组织，“反清复明”，顺治二年战死于三汊河。顺治十八年(1661年)，郑成功据守台湾 ，为推进汉留组织，“开山立堂，定名为金台山明伦堂”，并遣部将蔡德忠等向中原发展，至福建莆田九连山少林 寺为僧，与郑成功之侄郑君达等共图义举。康熙十一年(1672年)西鲁入侵，蔡德忠与郑君达等前往投效，打 败西鲁。后遭陷害，逃至万云山的万山寺，遇万云龙及陈 近南。雍正十二年在四川雅州以汉留组织，开精忠山，是为四川哥老会之始。

Back to the drawing board Frank!

EJ

PS: If you are interested in finding out more about Cai De-Zhong in Chinese source, here is the Google search page for your interest:

EJ

PS: If you are interested in finding out more about Cai De-Zhong in Chinese source, here is the Google search page for your interest:



How quickly we forget Frank....

[hskwarrior]

you'll have to do better than that because i got more on the hung mun than you do.

what else do you have?

not impressed.

i can probably show you just as much on the same lines as you. but i have more that contradicts yours.

anyways, i don't really trust chinese dates too much sine we all know china had some horrific recording skills.

what you got next?

[Fu-Pow]

So now you've got an official government history of martial arts in Guangdong province that doesn't mention GGM or Cai Ze Dong....

And Cai Ze Dong lived 150 yrs before he ever could have taught Jeong Yim....


......looks like you guys are going to have to cook up some other mysterious figure from Chinese history to be the GGM.

[hskwarrior]

what else do you got to prove that?

[Fu-Pow]

you'll have to do better than that because i got more on the hung mun than you do.

what else do you have?

not impressed.

i can probably show you just as much on the same lines as you. but i have more that contradicts yours.

Ok...let's see it.



anyways, i don't really trust chinese dates too much sine we all know china had some horrific recording skills.

what you got next?

Funny how you want to quote "official histories" but only when it serves your evangelical propaganda...you really should have become an evangelical preacher Frank, you missed your calling.

FP

[hskwarrior]

NB: this page contains non ascii characters -
you may need to download and install extra character sets

Triad
Triad (Simplified Chinese: 三合会; Traditional Chinese: 三合會; Hanyu Pinyin: Sānhéhuì; literally "Triad Society") is a collective term that describes many branches of an underground society and organizations based in Hong Kong and also operating in Mainland China, Macao, and Chinatowns in Europe, North America, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand.

There are about 57 triad groups that are active in modern Hong Kong; many of them are no more than small, local street gangs. The larger groups, including the Sun Yee On, Wo Shing Wo and 14K, are syndicates of sophisticated criminals, mirror images of such similar western empires of crime as the mafia.

Their activities include drug trafficking, money laundering, illegal gambling, prostitution, car theft and other forms of racketeering. A major source of triad income today comes from the counterfeiting intellectual property such as computer software, music CDs and movie VCDs/DVDs. They also trade in bootleg tobacco products.

History of triads Precursor to triads
Tian Di Hui Post-imperial developments
Migration to Hong Kong Sustenance from 1980s Activities overseas
Recent developments Triad organizational structure Triad oaths
Tongs Gang fighting Organized crime
Dealing with triad problems in schools How triads are tackled in Hong Kong Portrayal of triad societies in popular culture
Public figures alleged to have or have had triad ties List of Triads, Tongs and Chinese Gangs Triads
Criminally Influenced Tongs Chinese Gangs Miscellaneous information
See also




History of triads


Precursor to triads—Tian Di Hui
The Triads were started as a resistance to the Manchu Emperor of the Qing Dynasty. In the 1760s, a society called the Tian Di Hui (Heaven and Earth Society) was formed in China. Its purpose was to overthrow the Manchu-led Qing Dynasty and restore Han Chinese rule. As the Tiandihui spread through different parts of China, it branched off into many groups and became known by many names, one of which was "Sanhehui" (Chinese: 三合會; Hanyu Pinyin: sānhéhuì; Yale Cantonese: saam1 hap6 wui2), literally "Three Harmonies Society", referring to the unity between Heaven, Earth, and Man.

These societies accordingly made use of the triangle in their imagery. The name "triad" was coined by British authorities in Hong Kong, referring to that use of triangular imagery.


Post-imperial developments
Over several centuries, what is known as triads today developed from a patriotic society to a criminal organization. Following the overthrowing of the Qing Dynasty of China in 1911, the Hung clan (洪門) suddenly found themselves lost without purpose. Worse still, they somehow managed to miss out on the opportunity to participate in the actual uprising, and many of them were left angry and depressed. Unable to revert to normal civilian lives after spending years living under outlawry, grave danger and extreme violence, many ex-rebels reunited to form a cult which later came to be known as the Triad. Having lost the usual donations and support from the public after the collapse of the Qing empire, members of the newly formed cult resorted to money extortion from the unwilling public through all possible means.

[hskwarrior]

now what?


http://website.leidenuniv.nl/~haarbjter/169_014.pdf

thats gotta hurt.

[Fu-Pow]

now what?


http://website.leidenuniv.nl/~haarbjter/169_014.pdf

thats gotta hurt.

Well this document never mentions Cai Ze Dong. Furthermore, it says that the Hung Mun was founded on the basis of people that never existed but were part of folklore.

It really only talks about 1780's and onward.

How does this help your point that Cai Ze Dong=Ching Cho Wo Sheun ? I don't get it.

[Fu-Pow]

Precursor to triads—Tian Di Hui
The Triads were started as a resistance to the Manchu Emperor of the Qing Dynasty. In the 1760s, a society called the Tian Di Hui (Heaven and Earth Society) was formed in China. .


Ok, so you're saying that Cai Ze Dong didn't found the Hung Mun? How does that make your point?

[Fu-Pow]

I think all you've shown is that its unlikely that Cai Ze Dong even existed and was most likely part of Chinese folklore.

Congratulations!!!

[hskwarrior]

i'll break it down to you once again my young student.

in the book called "Hung Mun" which heavily chronicles much of the history of the Hung Mun, tells of the Hung Mun being founded long ago by another five ancestors. Tsai Te Chung, Li Sik Hoi, Fong Dai Hung, and the others were the latter 5 ancestors. then were the tigers generals. and so forth. there was also a group of women involved with it also.

but thats enough history for you today fu pow. try and absord some of it.

but i have a question for you......."what about the dates you quouted me about Cai DeZhong?" What about them?

are you admitting you attacked me without actually knowing something about the hung mun secret society?

yet in their records as Tsai Te Chung is the head of the 5 ancestors.

are you going to tell me now that Tsai Te Chung and Cai DeZhong are not the same person?

Have you ever read that book called the Hung Mun?

actually i would say no, you didn't did you? of course not, cause if you did then you would even know the secret Fan Ching Fu Ming poem, wouldn't you?

what now? fu Pow.

[hskwarrior]

do you not understand that Cai Dezhong and the other 4 are the second group of "5 " ancestors?

of course you wouldn't.

[hskwarrior]

here's a section of a Hung Ga site (not Choy Lee Fut related) talking about the history of the Shaolin Temple.

"After this skirmish, the monks pulled back into the temple to re-think their options. It was decided that they would stay in the temple and booby trap all the entrances. General Chan Man Yiu ordered his men to set fire to the temple. While the general's men were doing this, Ching Cho ordered the monks to go to the tunnel to escape. They didn't realize that Chan had filled the far end of the tunnel with gunpowder devices. Many monks were trapped and killed in the tunnel. Ching Cho ordered the remaining men back to the temple. By then, it was almost morning, and the temple had burned to the ground. Upon counting, Ching Cho descended that the survivors would later meet the Wu Lung river. Ching Cho descend the mountain in a rage, seeking out the only person who could have given away the secret of the tunnel escape route. He later found Ma Chut and killed him on the spot. At the river, there were only five men. They were: "

1. Wu Dak Dei

2. Choy Dak Jung
3. Lei Sik Hoi

4. Fong Dai Hung
5. Ma Chiu Hing

[hskwarrior]

here's another NON CLF web source that speaks of the Gree Grass Monk.....

The 'Five Elders of Shaolin', honoured as the 'true progenitors' by martial artists, appeared at the time of Zhi Shan. They were Wu Mei, Zhi Shan himself, Bai Mei, Feng Daode and Miao Xian. All five contri-buted greatly to the development of Southern-style martial arts. For our present purposes, we will leave aside the feuds that developed among the Five Elders, and examine instead the way that the Shaolin Monastery in Fujian was run under Zhi Shan.

The latter, in order to foster Shaolin martial artists of the highest calibre, both appointed his senior disciple Xing Yin (also known as the Qingcao Monk, or the Monk of the Green Grass) as the monastery's chief instructor in martial arts, in charge of the 36 chambers, and devised the Luohan Hall (or 'corridor of wooden dummies') as a final test for students. This was a secret chamber where students underwent a particularly intense form of training. It housed 108 wooden figures that could be manipulated mechanically to attack anyone who entered the chamber. On entering the chamber, a student would be forced to use all his faculties to the full to defend himself against these mechanisms, especially since the figures were not only animated but mobile. Many students found the experience a harrowing ordeal, and those of lesser abilities often emerged with quite serious injuries. The Shaolin Monastery put all of its students through extremely rigid trials, but they were not permitted to leave the monastery until they had passed through the Luohan Hall.

[hskwarrior]

Kuanyin Pavilion : Official founding sites mentioned Hei


In recent years, some scholars have under - such as Fujian and Zhejiang Governor Mrs. Rana trial files, Chenbiao the memorial to the throne, and field survey data that is to Kuanyin Pavilion Hei monk in Qianlong 26 (1761) official founding location.


Zhang River located in the south wing covered the riverside high seven East Kuanyin Pavilion, sit in the south-western, two into one center, covering 500 square metres, house of wood-stone structure still Peak, the construction can not research. Sound offer sacrifice to Goddess of Mercy, Lohan and mention Hi statue.


Question Hi (1721-1779), the clouds, a name Zheng, also known as Tu Hi, Ruming Hung, ranked second, that hung two monks. Local records, to Hei in Qianlong 26 (1761), in which the creation of heaven and earth will teach the "three means to object", "mean by heart" and "thumb for the day, little finger to the" hand vote, and advocates "to Taoyuan customs justice as an example to Shuipo Liangshan hero as a model," won the Friends of the endorsement and support.


Hei direct leadership of the Qianlong to 33 years (1768) gained 35 Lumao uprising and Qianlong (1770) Li Shao Min Zhaoan uprising.


Qianlong 33 years (1768) of more than 300 people will be led by Lu Mao arm-offensive maneuver counties. Porcelain bowls to the overall lead Dingzhuang'll have Dayou, will be of 33 people killed, the public will have the rest fled. Zhang Lin Sun rates weighed on the search homes, Lumaobini Hill, were issued with iwi Lu describes officials reported the capture.


Qianlong 34 years in the early 35 Winter Solstice (1769 Winter Solstice early 1770), Li Shao Min focal event of the village had Zhaoan, will be of mild, gestation stage a rebellion; Support and advance the Ming Dynasty royal kin Zhuzhenxing mainly red silk sewn Fu letter. Unexpectedly bad things plane, and finally rounded up by government failure.


Both incidents were mentioned Hi secretly instigated arrested will only have to comply with these rules, do not vent its name known. Subsequently, the only side-Chenbiao advised, Chen Biao Fu Yan tobacco, cigarettes Dongdu Taiwan Fu Yan Linshuangwen eventually led to Qianlong 51 years (1786) Taiwan will be massive vista uprising.

[hskwarrior]

i think all should read this.

there is some real interesting things about the Hung Mun in there.

http://sunzi1.lib.hku.hk/hkjo/view/26/2602680.pdf

give it a second or two to kick in, then it nothing move your cursor.

[hskwarrior]

Fu Pow,

what can you say now about what i just dropped onto your lap?

watch, i bet it will either be something stupid, or you won't say anything worth while at all.

To everyone else......i liked Eddie's interest into what i may know, so i started to share what i've learned about the green grass monk.

this had nothing to do with fu pow, yet he found it his business to immediately assume (like he always does) than i know nothing about which i speak.

Yet again. at the top of the thread i mention "eddie" and shared what i knew with him. fu pow tried to shoot it down. So i dropped a mess of stuff on him.

i apologize for my participation in his little charade.

hsk

[hskwarrior]

what happened?

cat got your tongue fu pow?

[hskwarrior]

This accounts for the 5
famous Southern Families Choy, Li, Mok, Hung, and Lau; Fut was carried on by Gi Sin’s top student Ng Ging who later changed his name
to Ching Cho Wor Seung (Green Grass Monk).



wow that came from the article written on the Ng Ga Kuen. so it's obvious that the green grass monk existed when other systems who have nothing to do with CLF

[hskwarrior]

But i do want to say that what Fu Pow did was pretty weak.

Once again he attacked me and what i know about my branch and its history.

When I dropped some evidence on him in guise of other's academic research on the Hung Mun Secret Society, he punks out and puts me on his ignore list so he doesn't have to face being faced!!!!!

The history of The Hung SIng Kwoon is slowly and surely coming back into the picture, Government sponsored websites from china all speak about Jeong Hung Sing so i hope people now can realize that the history that i have been spreading about the Fut San Hung SIng Kwoon is not of my own accord.

Our history is our history. If you have not tried to research our history, then you don't have to right to shoot it down without anything to back it up.

Either accept that i did my research, or either do your own, or don't be negative at all.

The last link i posted has actually Hung Mun documents in it and the dates it was re-oraganized.

I was only trying to share what i have, but Fu Pow made it his personal mission to try and debunct what i was sharing with his own inadequacies, and ignorance.

if many of you were more open minded and interested in researching what i shared with you so far, i'm down for some open conversations.


hsk

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

You seem to have this thing about no one speaks about Jeong Hung Sing.

If you have access to the Chen Family archive then you would have seen pages and pages written about him and what he did. You won't see them because your mind and your eyes are already closed.

All CLF history are interconnected and interwoven, there are less than 6 degrees of separation between us, this idea of MY history and YOUR history means you are already seeing yourself outside the circle. No wonder you are playing on your own!

Hey brother, take a break, look around and come inside.

EJ:D

[hskwarrior]

thanks joseph,

i appreciate your input. however, I don't fully trust the CHan Family records when it comes to Jeong Yim.

Brother Joseph,.......are you suggesting that i ignore Jeong Yim direct branch and their history and trust ONLY Chan Heung when it comes to Jeong Yim?

I only trust Chan Family for CHan Family history. I would NEVER use them as a source for Hung Sing or Buk Sing Kwoons history.

Being a Hung Sing disciple if i never listened to the FUt San Hung SIng Kwoon and only trusted in the Chan Family history then I would have to believe Jeong Yim came into the next picture much much later.

We would also have to trust that the green grass monk is CHoy Fook. we would have to believe that Jeong Yim was sent by chan heung in 1867 to fut san to open a school. Basically, the Chan Family can write their story according to how they see fit.

but when it comes to the history of the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon i would go directly to them no one else to learn their history. it is completely RIDICULOUS to rely on any one but the source to research history.

Joseph, if i followed the chan family account, then i would have to believe that Chan Heung was using Jeong Yim's Hung Sing first in fut san. However, with a little research, we come to realize the Jeong Yim's and Chan Heung's HungSing only sound the same but are two completely different sets of characters. one means Great Sage Hung, while the other means GLorious Victory or the Wild Goose Winning.

If i was to trust the chan family, i would never have learned that Jeong Yim's hsk was closed down by the ching in 1864, Jeong Yim fled to hong kong and came back to fut san in 1867.

If i were to trust the chan family history i would have to believe that Jeong Yim was in the picture in the late 1860's when government records show jeong yim organized the Hung SIng Kwoons in Fut San (all of his own group) in 1851 at the beginning of the Tai Ping Rebellion.

Joseph, there's alot harder evidence about Jeong Yim's involvement with the Hung Mun and all the revolutions that happened in and around Fut San than what the chan family can provide.

If all Choy Lee Fut bowed down to Chan Heung because he was the first founder, how can you explain that in the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon there are no photo's or paintings of Chan Heung in any of the studios except for Chan Heungs?

See Joseph, the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon has a very legitimate history which needs to be heard. Their are many famous Hung Sing Kwoon Disciples that belong to the Fut San Hung SIngKwoon that the Chan family doesn't make mention of.....for example, Wu Qin, Qian Wei Fang, Liang Hui Hua, Li So, and many others.

Nowhere in English do you see that In 1868 CHan Heung's Choy Lee Fut took on a major re-development. Why have they kept that out of the history? Why was there a major re-devolpment?

Why doesn't the Chan family explain away how CHan Koon Pak never learned Gung fu from his father, but yet he is on the direct family tree as if he was passing down chan Heung's gung fu. He wasn't teaching Chan family CLF. what was he teaching? Something that Jeong Yim taught him possibly?

I would love to read the Chan Family Kuen Po's and history. However, Fut San Has their own Records, Kuen Po's and history.

See, how can the Chan Family explain that if Choy Fook was the Green Grass Monk, then how did the Fut San Hung SIng Kwoon recover ancestral tablets with his name on it in fut san during japanese invasion. The Green Grass Monk passed on the In and Out bagua, which Chan Ngua Sing dissected into 3 major forms....Ping Kuen, Kou Da Kuen and Cheung Kuen. Does the Chan Family practice these forms joseph?

i think its obivous that Jeong Yim's Ping Kuen and Chan Heung's Ping Kuen's are two completely different sets.

But before I end this my brother Joseph, can you answer me a question?

"Why should i believe the chan family account of the Fut San Hung SIng Kwoon, when the source of the Hung Sing Kwoon has a whole different account of the history?

Also, how come no one ever speaks about the time that Chan Heung left king mui going all over the place. He wasn't developing his gung fu. he may have been spreading it, but when he came back to King Mui, there was more going on than when he left. so who developed the gung fu for him while he was gone?


hsk

There is too many open ended questions that can never be answered joseph.

I think for the safety of all our branches in the future all branches should just let the others tell their stories.

[hskwarrior]

brother joseph,

i'm inside the circle you speak of because i can see more than you think.

To tell you the truth, CLF history became a passion of mine. in that time i have come to realize that if we listen to only the chan family CLF then the Fut San HSK history and jeong yim will be forgotten, then we would have to rely on historical records writtne by chan heung's family and not of Jeong Yim's students and grandstudents.

there are like i said fut san historical records, why should i believe Chan Heung's version over the founder of my branch?

We all know that Jeong Yim was one of of the most famous, prolific, and trusted disciples of Chan Heung. He had even surpassed the greatness of Chan Heung with all of his efforts to spread CLF and his reputation as a fighter.

However. Jeong Yim went around spreading CLF with chan Heung. He obeyed his sifu Monk Ching Cho and went to the Fut San Hung Mun branch, introduced himself, and joined in on assisting the revolution. he was not travelling around as the chan family would like us to believe.

the facts are this.....

Jeong Yim learned first from Lee Yau San, then Chan Heung, then Monk Ching Cho.

Jeong Yim got his new name from Ching Cho which meant victory to the Hung Mun. Monk Ching CHo was one of the 2nd founding fathers of the Hung Mun. Much like you say Chan Heung started CLF first then Jeong Yim came behind him and took it to a new level. Ching Cho used the name of his organization (which wasn't thefirst time the name Hong SHeng was used the same way in someone's name) "Hung" and "Victory" because they were trying to overthrow the Ching Empire.


Jeong Yim had two kids who died early on as well. he was married to a woman named Chan Kay.


Why doesn't the Chan Family tell of this?

why is it that the Chan Family records stop with chan heung's family line?

is it because of bloodline?

if thats the case i'll stick to the fut san hung sing kwoon when i want to know my history.

but thanks joseph.

[hskwarrior]

Joseph,

I was just thinking. I want you and the other Choy Lee Fut people to know, that history is just a small part of what CLF is all about. History is something to refer to, it doesn't help you out when it comes to fighting.

Aside of the historical battle, I DON'T have ANY problems with CHan Family CLF. I actually think after seeing Chan Yong Fa and his people I'm impressed with their CLF, and see a whole lot of effective stuff, and would NEVER say i found it impractical.

I've never had any problems with Chan Family fighting, or their forms. i don't really have problems with their own history. the only problem i have with as many huge gaping holes in their history (let's not forget the Tiger incident) is them trying to tell US OUR history.

We will listen to our own lineage when it comes to wanting to know our history.
we will tell our history as it has been passed down.

And, just because i choose to research my branches history doesn't mean i'm wrong. Like i said long long ago. We thought Chan Heung had to do alot with the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon, until we started to research our history, kept digging and now i'm convinced the only place to learn Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon history IS.........FUT SAN HUNG SING KWOON. Not Chan Family CHOY LEE FUT.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

I can give you an explanation of most of the questions you have raised but I am not going to because they bear no relationship to the big picture that we all came from the same root and that there is an unity in the multiplicity of things that we do.

I give you an example, you asked "Jeong Yim had two kids who died early on as well. he was married to a woman named Chan Kay. Why doesn't the Chan Family tell of this?" I would ask you, "Why the Chan Family has tell others about his private life when it beared no relationship to the history and development of CLF?"

All styles of Kung Fu, include CLF is not just about blood line, what good is blood line is there is no skill? Do you think Chen Yong-Fa can be where he is today without skill and hard work? Those video you've got showing his students going through their stuff just don't came by themselves.

The Chan Family has a lot to offer because many of Chan Heung's descendants are still alive and teaching! But you keep trying to shoot them down with your non-sense about history instead of learning and sharing knowledge with them.

You have no sense of good manners and propriety.

Enough said, the bottom line is, whethere you trust the Chan Family or not, Jeong Yim was not the founder of CLF, but he was a great CLF pioneer and everyone , including the Chan Family, acknowledged that.

Are youy satisfied?

No, of course not! You will go on and on and on and on....

:(

[extrajoseph]

And, just because i choose to research my branches history doesn't mean i'm wrong. Like i said long long ago. We thought Chan Heung had to do alot with the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon, until we started to research our history, kept digging and now i'm convinced the only place to learn Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon history IS.........FUT SAN HUNG SING KWOON. Not Chan Family CHOY LEE FUT

Hi Frank,

You can learn anywhere you choose, just don't confuse history with where you want to learn your CLF.

Can we have some peace now?

:(

[hskwarrior]

i beg to differ with you joseph.

You act like I say Chan Heung's personal history is wrong. I've never done that. I admit that the chan family has a lot of holes in their story. So does the Hung Sing Kwoon.

I've never told someone not to join the chan family of CLF. I've never spoken ill of Chan Family CLF.

When i asked the questions about Jeong Yim, i wanted to demonstrate that if anyone wants to know about Fut San Hung SIng Kwoon, they should 1) either go to fut san and do some research, 2) research as much material on this branch as you can.

See, I believe in the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon is because of the info that comes out of it such as it's involvement in the Hung Mun and the Revolution is easily traceable.

Until now most everybody had only heard the Chan Family version of CLF. The Hung Sing branch has always passed down our history orally. No one new that the Fut San HSK was still active undgerground until the late 1990's. They re-emerged and since then everyone is wanting to know the history according to Jeong Hung Sing, which is slightly different to that of Chan Heung.

anyways, Chan Heung's account of Jeong Yim seems to be really different to that of his own direct branches account. Chan Ngau Sing's account of his sifu differs from that of Chan Heung. Yuen Hai's account to Lau Bun differs from Chan Family CLF about Jeong Yim.

Speaking of Yuen Hai, I believe in the Fut San Hung SIng Kwoon so much that if we wanted to.......we ....Professor Lau Bun's branch.......could take advantage of the Chan Family account of Yuen Hai being Loong Gee Choi's first student. Since Loong Gee Choy is Chan Heung's First student, that places Yuen Hai's lineage amongst the highest in Choy Lee Fut, even higher than Koon Pak, and such.

however, we believe in the fut san lineage of Hung SIng Choy Lee Fut.

[hskwarrior]

lastly joseph,

all i've ever tried to tell people is that if you want to know about the history of the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon, the Chan Family is a great secondary place to start. However, if you want to know about Jeong Yim and his Hung Sing Kwoon, then they should start right here:

http://www.hongshengguan.com
use worldlingo.com to translate pages.

Then search out what other branches say about Jeong Yim. That includes what the Chan Family says about Jeong Yim. but if the Chan Family history of Jeong Yim seems to differ from that of Jeong Yim's history according to his very own branch, students, and their family members who were all in one way or another involved with the branch.

We cannot ever ignore the legacy Jeong Yim left behind, and there is much more to him than what the chan family has to say.

Start with the link and go from there folks. its all out there now.

[hskwarrior]

This is where i end the argument brother Joseph.

I don't wish to argue over the history anymore. I will promote the history and make it available for anyone who wishes to view it. Just follow my history page and links page to see if there's anything new im doing.

You are a great source of info on the Chan Family CLF joseph. I hope you can assist me in the future to fully understand Chan Heung's branch.

Still, i'll go to Fut San to learn more about this branch, and i will go to Buk Sing Elders to learn more about Tam Sam and his legacy. it's the only right thing to do.

If we only rely on Chan Family resources, then we all will miss out on the real history of each branch. People do more research on CLF and you will come to find it is more interesting and doesn't actually stop at or with Chan Heung. Choy Lee Fut originated with Chan Heung, Jeong Yim made his contributions then developed his own brand of CLF, and Tam Sam continued to refine and redefine certain techniques and add a few more.

The Hung Sing and Buk SIng material IS NOT taught within the Chan Family CLF. So, that does not mean it isn't CLF. It most certainly is. without a doubt CLF.

But the argument stops here, and i am more open for discussion than bickering.

hsk

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

That is great, we finally reach an end.

Believe what you like, just don't try to change history to suit your belief, that is all we ask of you.

Cheers and I hope I don't have to write another word on CLF history, ever again!

EJ

[hskwarrior]

as long as the chan family does not try to push aside our history and tell US we are WRONG, and if we can all accept that each branch has a deserving history to be told, then we can all live in peace as one great Choy Lee Fut family.

we are all CLF. let's accept each other's history and be at peace.

once and for all.

hsk

[hskwarrior]

oh, and i don't try to change history.

It wasn't the Hung Sing branch of CLF that claimed Green Grass Monk was a myth since the creation of CLF. No one until a few years ago ever claimed that Green Grass Monk was Monk Choy Fook like they do today.

If you don't call that changing history to suit your own belief, than i'm not sure what you call it.

If i was trying to change history then i would adopt the theory that Yuen Hai was Loong Gee's student, then I'd go around and tell the world we are the highes branch in the Chan Family of Choy Lee Fut since Loong Gee Choy was Chan Heung's first disciple. First, not last, not in the middle, but first.

Changing history is saying that Chan Heung used the Hung Sing name first and Jeong Yim was the second one to use that name. However, as we know now that Jeong Yim's (glorious victory) and Chan Heung's Hung Xiong (great Sage Hung) are two very different characters. But because of my research, we come to learn that now.

Changing history is saying that there are 190 foms in the Chan Family CLF, when originally there were only 49 recorded forms. Where did the other 140 come from? and acting as if Chan Heung created each and every one.

So, when you mention changing history, please keep in mind that you are not only speaking to me, but to anyone in any branch including chan family-should not change history to suit their needs, right?

before i go, bro Joe................. i have a question for you.

"Do you think that the problem with Jeong Yim started when he took over the old blind guys school and changed the schools name to his own?

[iron_silk]

[QUOTE=hskwarrior]lastly joseph,

all i've ever tried to tell people is that if you want to know about the history of the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon, the Chan Family is a great secondary place to start. However, if you want to know about Jeong Yim and his Hung Sing Kwoon, then they should start right here:

http://www.hongshengguan.com
use worldlingo.com to translate pages.

QUOTE]

Hey Frank,

I was just curious about these statements from the Fut Shan website:
"Chen Xiang(1805-1875)enjoyed the prestige of the originator of Cai-Li-Fo."

seems to contradict:
"And Zhang Hongsheng was worshipped as the father of “Cai-Li-Fo”. "

Does it mean they worship Jeurng Yim as the father of the Fut Shan branch but Chan Heung is the originator?

Maybe Fut Shan doesn't have a pic of Chan Heung b/c when Jeurng Yim went to Fut Shan Chan Heung hasn't passed away yet and such a tradition to put a picture on the altar is for ancestors that have already passed away?

[hskwarrior]

Iron Silk,

There is more to the story than i'm allowed to say here. However, no Hung Sing Kwoon's have Chan Heung's Picture on their walls. I am referring to it now being 2006 and with the re-emergence of CLF within China, you'd think if Chan Heung had much to do with Jeong Yim, then there would be a phot of him on the walls.

here is the link if you want to translate it on worldlingo.com
http://www.fschinwoo.com/wushu/2005wuhongi.htm

佛山鸿胜馆与蔡李佛拳

摘录自佛山蔡李佛拳鸿胜馆所编资料《佛山鸿胜馆一百五十年》 梁伟永副馆长提供

蔡李佛拳的形成
清 代，洪、刘、蔡、李、莫被称为广东五大名拳，相传源自南少林。蔡福、李友山分别为蔡家拳、李家拳的代表人物 。
　　 广东新会县京梅乡陈享(1815─1875)，自幼随族叔（少林俗家弟子）陈远护习武，后拜李友山、蔡福为 师。新会县双水镇下村（今东凌村）人张炎(1824─1893)，自幼爱习武，曾拜李友山为师，后随陈享习 武，17岁时投奔广西八排山闸建寺青草和尚，得传以佛门内外八卦拳等技艺及医术。

the highlighted area being Chan Heung's name and birthdate.

Now, Jeong Yim learned from Lee Yau San before learning from CHan Heung. As it is passed down from Jeong Yim, he only learned from Chan Heung for about 5 years. he then went to Monk Ching Cho and studied with him for about 8 years.

According to our history, Jeong Yim only returned to Chan Heung to thank Chan Heung for all his help, possibly even to pay a visit to his former sifu. He thanked Chan Heung, and in doing so showed what he learned from Monk Ching Cho and it was at this point that Chan Heung began to add in some of the things from Jeong Yim.

Chan Heung created a Choy Lee Fut for his Chan Clan Members, and within his own bloodline is another level of CLF not taught to your lay students. Outside of this direct branch of CLF you will not learn their forms.

In Jeong Yim's Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon he began to teach a mixture of gung fu he learned from Lee Yau San, Chan Heung, and Monk Ching Cho. The latter being his last sifu. The Gung Fu taught at Jeong Yim's Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon was not the same as being passed down within Chan Heung's branch.

if you read the history, there was a long period of time when Chan Heung left Ging Mui and travelled all over. While Jeong Yim was in Fut San working and fighting along side the revolutionaries of Southern China, he developed his gung fu according to his own needs. Then shaping that into what his disciples needed.

Jeong Yim's CLF wasn't finished even after his own death. that's when Chan Ngau Sing broke up the In and Out Bagua Kuen. Fut San's Ping Kuen, Kau Da Kuen and Cheung Kuen contain many elements of what the In and Out bagua was like.

So. there fore, as i've said before, Chan Heung's gung fu and Jeong Yim's gung fu pretty much only had the basics that were in common. Jeong Yim delevoped his own branches gung fu while Chan Heung did the same for the students of his school (who were all mainly named chan.

[extrajoseph]

Changing history is saying that Chan Heung used the Hung Sing name first and Jeong Yim was the second one to use that name. However, as we know now that Jeong Yim's (glorious victory) and Chan Heung's Hung Xiong (great Sage Hung) are two very different characters. But because of my research, we come to learn that now.

Hi FRank,

Obvious you want to be shot down in flame again.


Everyone who read Chinese knows the characters for (Gloriuos Victory) Hung Sing and for (Great Sage) Hung Sing are different, you don't need to do "research" to know that, and if you know anything of Chinese history then you will know it was not very wise to use the characeter Hung for "great" in the Qing time because it was the name of the founder of the previous Ming dynasty. You only come to know it now because you can't read Chinese and don't know Chinese history!

Changing history is saying that there are 190 foms in the Chan Family CLF, when originally there were only 49 recorded forms. Where did the other 140 come from? and acting as if Chan Heung created each and every one.

If you count them carefully, there are 135 to be exact and that has to do with the the numbers 3 and 5 (3X3X3X5=135) - that is with the philosophic concept of San Cai (Tian, Di and Ren - Heaven, Earth and Man) and the five cardinal directions (front, back, left, right and center including up and down).

Frank, if you can learn a bit of Chinese philosophy, Chinese history and the Chinese language, it will help you understand better the CLF history. People in the old days don't make things up out of nothing like you do!

There are more than 49 forms and that number is not very auspicious and no respectible Chinaman will settle for this number! So if you want to make something up, make it credible to a scholar-warrior of the old school, otherwise they will just laugh you out of the clasroom.

Frank, you are shooting yourself in the feet everytime you open your trap! I don't know whether to laugh or feeling sorry for you!

:(

[hskwarrior]

won't this one send you for a flip......

This is a copy of a Shaolin site who records CLF history. In the begining the story was that Chan Heung either learned from Green Grass Monk, or was going to so he sent Jeong Yim instead. but he the story has Chan Heung working for the green grass monk.


Foshan Hongshengwu Museum Spring Festival

Sheng Museum of origins reported : Guangxu at the court's, Foshan to a martial arts chief instructor in the village of Tan Temple Mount purple signs hanging out Sheng Museum, Professor for attacking.
The chief instructor went from inflammation, Xinhui Shek mouth, and his rehabilitation will Wushu-Chen people enjoy (also known as Chan enjoy); Chen Pai Hill since Guangxi eight grass monk there to learn; Grass is the Fujian Shaolin monk robe concealing the classics disciples. Chen began apprentice, water daily from San Tan Kok Peak, 4,600 food supply. He accompanied heavy iron shoes, with the end of one pair of sharp steel water tanks, on Hill Road, rugged rock formation, at a stretch to leap to undertake water tortuous hill. After similar manner practiced hard, Chen learned the grass makes.
Wushu Chen after the body of his son to Anbo, Bo and her master Zhang. Zhang finish an apprenticeship, initially located in Jiangmen Museum began showing up, take as teacher mostly stevedores, these workers are the Lion Museum, because of tyrants like, from the Museum scatter workers want to learn to walk tyrants Wushu recover Lion Museum. Chang Tai flu grievances heard, MA and tyrants contest for Taiwanese killing tyrants, then became electronic bulletin boards, located on the Museum began showing up in Lion Museum named : :-adding in the meantime Foshan, located beyond the Museum began showing up Felix, Leican, Huang Kuan, Cheung Sam David and Huang 4.
Felix is the first disciple, inherited the mantle and alms bowl Zhang. There is a tortuous read. Felix animal, is Foshan copper platinum workers. He is the Zhoujinbiao disciples, Guangxu five years (1883) 19-year-old Chen, Zhou to return, Chang Chen-worship for the division to continue their education. 1 week to bring senior researcher Chen on purpose in coming. Chen Yan see where the dragon master, and Chinese boxing Chuquan air and long, much Otherwise, inevitably Hin in color. Yan Sum know not, we also want to see Felix martial arts skills, and then ask their teachers than burning Chen. Chen told the anxious, and he immediately end the meantime moving pieces, no one is really Felix opponent.
Chen exaltation, adding with a laugh : "old fellow like me to try it!" Chan an aggressive, and undoubtedly will be judged together.
Zhang said : "I now want you to do in the east, you have to pay careful attention! "23 of fist and foot, Chen thrown down to the black in the east; Zhang Batafu up said : "You Taidayi, now I want you to fall in the west, you have learned to be careful! "But for one reason or one, Chen has thrown down to the black in the west.
Felix stood up, Zhang said : "This is you in the middle. "Sure enough several rounds, Chen black in the middle of what was thrown down. Chen was willing to take as teacher.
After training, to make the inner sheets. Subsequently adding to the Shunde Co. located Museum, and local chief instructor training for older gas declined missing hand, Chen is committed to the division revenge to the Co. with a "Yin in" approach to the chief instructor defeat. Zhang announced the presence of Jews, mantle and alms bowl to Felix. So Zhang's presentation, and then only Chen Bishop, ancestral hall was known as the Lion. (see Chen strata, "Guangdong historical data," 16)

[extrajoseph]

Jeong Yim's CLF wasn't finished even after his own death. that's when Chan Ngau Sing broke up the In and Out Bagua Kuen. Fut San's Ping Kuen, Kau Da Kuen and Cheung Kuen contain many elements of what the In and Out bagua was like.

So. there fore, as i've said before, Chan Heung's gung fu and Jeong Yim's gung fu pretty much only had the basics that were in common. Jeong Yim delevoped his own branches gung fu while Chan Heung did the same for the students of his school (who were all mainly named chan.)

Hi Frank,

Do you know the Chan Family has 8 sets of Bagua forms and they have been around since Chan Heung's time? If Jeong Yim knew them all, then why Chan Ngau Sing has to make more of them up in Futsan?

Before you you claim Jeong Yim developed his own Kung Fu please check out what the Chan Family has got first, otherwise you will shoot yourself in the feet again.

:(

[hskwarrior]

joseph,

you don't think you've proven me wrong do you?

it's cool though. as i've said, my arguments over.


hsk

[hskwarrior]

jeong Yim passed a set on to Chan Ngau Sing called In and Out bagua. the total number of moves in it was 1080. because He wanted to make it easier to learn, chan Ngau Sing dissected that form into the three set's i've mentioned.

So what Chan Heung has more bagua forms than Jeong Yim. IF Jeong Yim was learning all of Chan Heung's stuff then he should have learned those, and we should have been passing them down. but we don't. because the In and Out bagua (only 1 set) was what Monk Ching Cho passed down to Jeong Yim, then was passed down to Chan Ngau Sing.

Now, again, why are you trying to tell me what Chan Ngau Sing was teaching? we you there? Are you going to dispute that this is what his students were practicing? How can you? you were'nt there, and you're not a Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon disciple.

[hskwarrior]

wait a minute joseph.......

you act like Chan Heung created each and every form in HIS choy lee fut system. Now you and i both know thats is a bunch of bs, right?


so you are telling me that CHan Koon Pak never created any forms for his school?

what about Chan Yiu Chi? chan Wan Hon?

so no one contributed to the developement of Chan Heung's CLF but him?

is that what you are telling me?


hsk

[hskwarrior]

if Jeong Yim learned all of Chan Heung's 8 Bagua Sets, then how do you explain that not one of them are taught in the Fut San Hung SIng Kwoon?


hsk

[hskwarrior]

flame wars.....no. a converstation yes. get it straight.

now, how many people outside of the chan family new what characters Chan Heung's branch used until recently? Half the ClF people have only heard from DFW that Chan Heung used the name hung sing leading everyone to believe that Chan Heung was using Jeong Yim's Hung Sing.

but untill not too long ago people we able to compare the two and thats when we've realized that Yeah, chan heung used hung sing. but Jeong Yim's was different, how can CHan Heung use it first?

if you read chinese and are privy to certain things thats fine. great for you.


hsk

[hskwarrior]

wow joseph. I'm honored.

regardless of what your reasons were good or bad, you took the time out to check out my site. thanks brother.

[hskwarrior]

let's go brother joe. I'm waiting for your response.

If you haven't realized yet, I'll squeesze ya like a Boa Constrictor for information.

anything you tell me gives me more for the chan side of the pie.

regardless of my methods, i'll get what i want.


hsk

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

"if Jeong Yim learned all of Chan Heung's 8 Bagua Sets, then how do you explain that not one of them are taught in the Fut San Hung SIng Kwoon?"

May be Jeong Yim has not learned the Bagua sets, or may be he didn't have the time to teach them in Futsan. Why don't you ask the Futsan people?

The theories of Yin/Yang, Bagua and Wuxing are the foundations of Chinese philosophy, so it is not surprising that CLF would have them built into the system.

As to who made them all up over time, it is hard to be sure, but Chan Yiu-Chi was definitely the first in the family systematically written them down based on knowledge passed down by his grandfather Chan Heung and his father Koon Pak. Don't forget others may also have kept records they learned from their teachers before Yiu-Chi's time.

Isn't it amazing that Chen Yong-Fa actually learned from his grandfather, the same Chan Yiu-Chi and he is still alive and teaching? What other CMA can you find that nowadays? I sat in one of Barry Hale's class in SF with Ng Fu Heng, they are dedicated and and knowledgeable people and you should check them out before you keep bashing the Chan Family.

EJ

[extrajoseph]

let's go brother joe. I'm waiting for your response.

If you haven't realized yet, I'll squeesze ya like a Boa Constrictor for information.

anything you tell me gives me more for the chan side of the pie.

regardless of my methods, i'll get what i want.


hsk

Frank,

You can squeeze and squeeze and squeeze, where I come from it will never run dry! But you won't get what you want because what you want is not there.

:D

[hskwarrior]

thanks for that joseph.

However, I do keep in touch with Fu Hang Ng's people.

As a matter of fact, that's a good idea. I will contact my friend there, and maybe he can ask his sifu for me.

I didn't think of that.


be back later.

hsk

[hskwarrior]

an oh yeah,

i haven't bashed anyone. I have questions and want them answered. you seemed like the most logical one. but you set me on another path.

Just cause i don't follow the chan's account of who Jeong Yim was, what he did or what ever doesn't mean i'm bashing anyone.

[Fu-Pow]

Hi Frank,

May be Jeong Yim has not learned the Bagua sets, or may be he didn't have the time to teach them in Futsan. Why don't you ask the Futsan people?

EJ

Or alternatively maybe he never learned them because he wasn't interested or didn't feel that they added anything to his knowledge. Of maybe he left his Sifu too early to ever learn them.

From my experience with the one Ba Gua set (Ba Gua Saam, the Tao Lu in my video) that I learned, it didn't reallly add a whole lot to my fighting knowledge.

Yes, it is more difficult to execute because it is more complex and acrobatic and is definitely good training but I'm not sure as much of it is readily applicable for fighting as a form like Saap Ji Kau Dah.

If Jeong Yim was the fighter that some claim him to be then I could see him skipping over a lot of the fancier stuff in favor of the more simple and practical in fighting.

I am realizing that the number of forms that you have doesn't equal fighting ability. If you have the core forms and tear those apart and test them under pressure then you can actually become a better fighter than those that have a myriad of forms and that's all they ever practice. There are only so many hours in the day...if you're practicing Tao Lu then you're not practicing application and vice versa.

In other words, # forms doesn't = ability to use all that knowledge.

A little bit of knowledge is all you need to be dangerous. Its what you do with that knowledge that matters.

BTW, hskwarrior is still on my ignore list. I am responding purely to what was posted in extrajoseph's reply to Frank. I have no desire to read Frank's posts any longer. So Frank if you are reading this don't bother responding because I won't be reading it.

FP

[hskwarrior]

hahahahaha.......

after 10 years of his kung fu training, the boy finally learns that its all about quality and about quantity. only those fascinated about quantity aren't fighters at all.

what a contracdiction though. he was always ranting and raving about the 190 forms of the Chan Family. but its good to see the boy is finally starting to see the light.


and brother Joseph, i already set that in motion. and look forward to their reply. at least with my contact, i can have a logical coversation.

he and his sifu are aware of my sites and what i'm doing and i get the thumbs up from them. cool huh?


hsk

[dragon323]

hskwarrior say

"Chan Ngau Sing broke up the In and Out Bagua Kuen. Fut San's Ping Kuen, Kau Da Kuen and Cheung Kuen"

If Ping Kuen, Kau Da Kuen y Cheung Kuen were made by Chan Ngau Sing , how were they known for Lau Bun ?

[Fu-Pow]

This is the second time I've heard of this in and out bagua form. Does anyone know the translation in Chinese?

[hskwarrior]

Because Lau Bun learned through his sifu (yuen Hai) the most early beginnings of Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut. You see, Yuan Hai was a long time student of Jeong Yim, who taught the In and out Bagua Kuen.

So you can say Lau Bun has some pretty old Choy Lee Fut.

we teach Sup Gee Kau da Kuen. Ping Kuen was never a set we practiced. we have a cheung kuen from Lau Bun, but the Fut San Cheung Kuen is much different. Lau Bun's Cheung Kuen is like Fut San's Che Kuen, only 3 times longer.

so what ever Lau Bun learned from Yuen Hai was based on the In and Out bagua kuen.

thank you for asking.

hsk

[hskwarrior]

In and Out 8 diagrams fist.

I think the in and out part in "internal and external"

According to Chan Ngau Sing it was one of the most effective fighting forms the Hung Sing Kwoon had.

[hskwarrior]

To tell you the truth, Lau Bun learned what ever it was that the Hung Sing Kwoon was teaching by the early 1900's.

it makes no difference if he didn't get the Fut San Hung SIng Ping Kuen set. We teach it now, and that's all that matters.

we also teach the Fut San Ping Kuen, Cheung Kuen, Kau Da Kuen, Lin Wan Kuen, Siu Lin Wan, Siu Cheung Kuen, Che Kuen, and a few others that comes from the Fut San Hung SIng kwoon.

But there are other forms within Lau Bun's CLF than those sets.

[extrajoseph]

If Jeong Yim was the fighter that some claim him to be then I could see him skipping over a lot of the fancier stuff in favor of the more simple and practical in fighting.

Hi Fu-Pow,

He did, he fought for CLF like a good trooper, but the "vision" thing came from Chan Heung and that is why he could not have been the founder of CLF nor Futsan Hung Sing, for he made his name as a fearless soldier and not as a thinking general.

One of the reasons why there are so many forms in CLF is that we need the planners as well as the doers to make a system great. A simple idea with a complex structure keeps the group together and the wheels turning smoothly.

You are a thinker, unlike Frank, so you should appreciate what I am saying. What you would do is another matter.

EJ

[Eddie]

wow, that was probably the most mature statement that made allot of sense. thanks Mr Xtra :)

[hskwarrior]

but you eddie are fooled if you believe what joseph was saying about Jeong Yim just being a soldier and not a thinking general as jospeh puts it.

Joseph, please refrain from speaking on Jeong Yim as if you have some kind of personal knowledge on who he was. you are only a chan clan supporter. don't bash him unless you want me to bash on Chan Heung.

Remember what you once told me that you can embarrass the Buk Sing Branch because you said you have knowledge that tam sam wasn't a real fighter at all. i'm sorry, maybe it was someone from Li Iu Ling's lineage that emailed the to me. still, it came from the mouth of a chan family member who acts like he knows things bout other branches he has nothing to do with.

care to explain that away joseph.

for those who read this forum, can you see how the Chan Family is always trying to keep CLF as a whole in their court. as if "let's not talk about them.....let me tell you about Chan heung instead!!!!"""

Jeong Yim was more famous than Chan Heung when it came to the gung fu world. Jeong Yim mad Choy Lee Fut famous.

and joseph, you are utterly and completely wrong when you say that jeong yim didn't found the fut san Hung SIng kwoon. you don't know what you are talking about.

its sad that people don't do the research with an open mind here. they would come to find out that the chan family is NOT the place to learn about Jeong Yim.

For example joseph just said because of the vision thing, jeong yim was only a fearless soldier while emplying that CHan Heung was the master general. HA.

Jeong Yim's name once again is bigger in the whole scheme of things when it comes to CLF. It was his branch that got the more fame.

and you think i am a fighter not a general, a true general never reveals what he does thinks or wants to say until the right time.

Joseph, you have failed to prove me wrong. especially, with language as "he could not have been" instead of he wasn't.

a thinker joseph, doesn't have the time to practice fighting, he is wasting all his time trying to tell others how to fight instead of sharpening up his skills.


joseph.....you stay the thinker ok.

[Fu-Pow]

Hi Fu-Pow,

One of the reasons why there are so many forms in CLF is that we need the planners as well as the doers to make a system great. A simple idea with a complex structure keeps the group together and the wheels turning smoothly.

EJ

I agree with you to some extent. However, I think ideally, as martial artists, we should be both. If you only ever think about martial arts and never "do" martial arts then there is a disconnect between the mind and the body. The theory is important but it must be continually tested against "reality."

I'm going to go off on a tangent here because I've really been wanting to share my latest thinking with people. (I think you're right, I am a thinker Joseph:D )

Recently I've really changed the way I'm thinking about martial arts.
Basically, I would break martial arts training in CLF into 3 aspects.

1) Fundamentals:

-Conditioning (all kinds and Tao Lu can definitely be a part of conditioning)
-Single techniques
-Short combinations
-2-man coreographed or semi-coreographed partner work

2) Tao Lu (forms)

3) San Shou (ie freesparring of all kinds)

All aspects are important and overlap and should integrate with each other. I think that you can use this roadmap to some extent for weapons as well.

However, some people in TCMA seem to only emphasize Tao Lu. I especially think beginners should not spend a lot of time on Tao Lu.

Fundamentals should come first, then some Tao Lu, then San Shou...then all should be integrated and trained simultaneously. Its like most in TCMA have the order screwed up. Mostly it is a little bit of fundamentals, lots of Tao Lu and free sparring is rare or not at all.

This way you end up with good peformers and bad fighters.

Anyways, that's my experience based on my 10 years of dues paid.

FP

[VStanmore]

The topic of why have more than one form, or why have forms at all may be a "been there, done that" topic.
For a perspective on why have form/s, especially when there are repeating techniques and even sequences of techniques, here is a very good article:

http://www.wle.com/thePen/0001.html

People talk about making your techniques and kungfu personalised and work for you. But if you remember that knowledge is accumulative---take a look at science and how through the ages the knowledge is built upon the work of our predecessors. You can see further when you stand on the shoulders of giants.

So it would make sense that if the many clf forms are used to teach and cater for differing body types, athletic ability, aptitude and personality how to use the techniques energetically and strategically to best suit the type of individual.

For example, a short , thin and agile guy may benefit from studying the monkey form whereas a big, bulky guy may find the elephant form more suitable. You can learn a lot from watching nature. You don't normally expect an elephant to fight the same way as a monkey, but they if they fight then they fight!
So if the predecessors have already done the "planning" and "design", wouldn't it be wise to make use of it rather than try to reinvent the wheel. It might save a lot of time, and in fact, standing on the shoulders of giants can let you see further than the guy who refuse to acknowledge he is shorter.

But of course if your forms are nothing more than a performance choreography or an exercise, than yeah you probably benefit little from learning a lot of them.
But if the training philosophy and essence of the forms are kept intact, and the different energy training is understood, there may be good reason to take advantage of different training with different forms.
Do you not think if the predecessors deemed it necessary to record the forms and associated knowledge for future generations, there may be something more them than just an exercise in moving your limbs and body?

[extrajoseph]

Hi Fu-Pow,

After doing nearly 50 years of CLF (and still enjoying it everyday, it is not a due to me, it is a pleasure), I would like to add two comments to yours.

The first is regarding martial and civil (wen-wu in Chinese), as our body gets older, we will naturally slow down and become physically weaker, so the training of the mind become more crucial than the body and the methodology for body conditioning and the fighting techniques used will also have to change (I hardly do any tao lu these days but I can still teach them if required).

This is where CLF has an advantage in keeping us at top condition relating to our age, both mentally and physically because we have qigong as well as kung fu, or some would say we have both the internal as well as the external aspects of a martial art.

The second is regarding your 3 aspects, I think you should include "lian neigong" (training the internal) and "da muren zhuang" (strking the wooden dummies) in your routine. One is very effective in training the internal and the other the external. Again these two are the unique characters of CLF.

Remember the best fighter is one who don't need to fight to win a battle, therefore we should be an accomplished civil as well as martial artist, that is a thinker and a fighter at the same time like you said.

This will be my last posting for a while, I've too much to do and not enough time left to train. Talking to Frank is a real waste of time, he can be a foot soldier for Futsan for the rest of his life for all I care. I am sure this will not be the end of the conversation.

Blah, blah, blah....

Cheers, my CLF brothers,

EJ

[Fu-Pow]

Do you not think if the predecessors deemed it necessary to record the forms and associated knowledge for future generations, there may be something more them than just an exercise in moving your limbs and body?

Hi V-

No I don't think that. The forms are "dense" with information ie movement principles, techniques, strategy, combinations, etc. etc. However, without extracting and isolating these things from the form, and drilling them repetitiously..... you will not become a good fighter.

In addition, you must take the fundamentals and pressure test them to see what works and doesn't work for you in real time...ie San Shou. Maybe you go back to the Tao Lu and look for something that would work better for you. Maybe you haven't spent adequate time on the fundamentals to make them work effectively?

The answer is not always clear and it is what makes it a martial ART and not a martial SCIENCE. If there was a "master formula" that would make us all good fighters then this would be easy.

Tao Lu is important but it is just a piece and one that is over emphasized in modern kung fu. That's my main point.

FP

[Fu-Pow]

Hi Fu-Pow,

The first is regarding martial and civil (wen-wu in Chinese), as our body gets older, we will naturally slow down and become physically weaker, so the training of the mind become more crucial than the body and the methodology for body conditioning and the fighting techniques used will also have to change (I hardly do any tao lu these days but I can still teach them if required).

I understand. I think I need to do more Qi Gong because my injuries are taking longer and longer to heal...and I'm only 30 yrs old!!!



This is where CLF has an advantage in keeping us at top condition relating to our age, both mentally and physically because we have qigong as well as kung fu, or some would say we have both the internal as well as the external aspects of a martial art.

Well unfortunately my branch of CLF doesn't have any Qi Gong, which is too bad I think. There are other ways to get Qi Gong but it won't integrate as well as the Qi Gong designed specifically for CLF....correct me if I'm wrong.


The second is regarding your 3 aspects, I think you should include "lian neigong" (training the internal) and "da muren zhuang" (strking the wooden dummies) in your routine. One is very effective in training the internal and the other the external. Again these two are the unique characters of CLF.

Cool. As I mentioned we don't have Qi Gong so that hadn't occurred to me. We only have 1 of the dummies so that also hadn't occurred to me.



Remember the best fighter is one who don't need to fight to win a battle, therefore we should be an accomplished civil as well as martial artist, that is a thinker and a fighter at the same time like you said.

Absolutely. Mun, Mo, Sun. Scholar, Fighter, Monk ie Mind, Body, Spirit.



This will be my last posting for a while, I've too much to do and not enough time left to train. Talking to Frank is a real waste of time, he can be a foot soldier for Futsan for the rest of his life for all I care. I am sure this will not be the end of the conversation.

Blah, blah, blah....

Cheers, my CLF brothers,

EJ

I agree that's why I put Frank on my ignore list. It's great, it's like somebody turned down the volume or something. You should give it a try EJ.

Thanks for you input and I think I can speak for the many and say that we enjoy having you here......so don't run off for too long. ;)

FP

[hskwarrior]

yeah joseph you intellectual you.

i love intellectual Choy Lee Fut. it's so deadly.

[VStanmore]

Fu Pow,
Yeah its good idea to analyse the contents of the forms.

But not all forms are the same. Interestingly, karate has a san chin form which is more like a set drill with breathing training, so its training may already act like a good drill and conditioning as well as qigong exercise.

EJ,

I like your comments about neigong and wooden dummy training.

I like this article about the clf wooden dummies :http://www.tai-chi-centre.com/woodendummies.htm

Here is a quote: "Chan Heung put considerable emphasis on power training, which is essential in jong techniques because one must have a strong and solid stance and tough limbs. It is not an easy task to send a heavy sandbag flying or to smash a solid piece of timber with a heavy weight attached swing from end-to-end like a yo-yo.

Chan Heung’s son, Chan Koon-Pak, also made jong techniques one of his specialities and received full instructions from his father. While teaching in Guangzhou, Koon-Pak was approached by Choy Kwai-Yuan and his two sons to teach them the wooden dummy techniques. They had the space required for installing the various jongs in their home. Chan Koon Pak accepted their request and gave them the specifications to construct the jongs."

I highlighted the comment about koon pak learning from his father, which should REFUTE the claim by some that chan source says koon pak did not learn from his father.

I understand what you mean about real waste of time talking to some, especially when they don't get to the point about the relevant matter and just rambles on and on, or make useless comments. Maybe some might wonder where he got that idea from, and what chan records he had access to, or whether he just made it up.
Does it remind us of Homer simpson's "we don' need a thinker, we need a doer, one that does without considering the con-se-quen-ces" ? :D

For an article on CLF internal training, here is an article: http://www.tai-chi-centre.com/lohan.htm

Clf is such a rich style with internal training and elaborate external wooden dummies. There is even a dummy which incorporates hard chi gung!

[hskwarrior]

you can miss me with your bs dude, you don't know me.

you are most likely a chan family supporter any way.

however, neither you nor fake as old man Joseph can tell me anything on my branch. When it comes to your info on Jeong Yim, you are all full of BS......

BS....that is.;)

[Fu-Pow]

Hey V-

Are you a CLF guy? Just curious. If not what style do you study?

If there are certain people annoying you on this forum I suggest that you make use of the ignore feature. Its in the user control panel, labeled user CP. It really does make a world of difference....;) It's like a whole new forum!!!

[VStanmore]

Hey V-

Are you a CLF guy? Just curious. If not what style do you study?

If there are certain people annoying you on this forum I suggest that you make use of the ignore feature. Its in the user control panel, labeled user CP. It really does make a world of difference....;) It's like a whole new forum!!!

Hey Fu Pow,
Yeah I do clf but also Hung Gar.

Thanks for the hint about ignore list to put the annoying guy on!

I really like the idea of clf Neigong and wooden dummies, and a multitude of Bagua forms.

I wonder if EJ and others would like to share what are their favourite bagua forms and why, and what are their favourite wooden dummy techniques. For example, the bagua sum is said to be "the heart of the bagua forms", but does anyone know what this "heart" is or signifies? Each of the 8 bagua forms, if I'm not mistaken, are suppose to 'represent' each of the 8 different trigrams of the bagua, but which to what form?

Some very interesting stuff, and I think it would be wise to dig for the treasures than try to re-invent the wheel. At least saves time, and gives us the foundation of a predecessors to build upon-like standing on the shoulders of giants!

I think better than (some?) making things up when they don't know!:D

[gregdread]

I'm a bit curious about CLF having 8 form Baqua. I thought Baqua was a Taosit form. And, doesnt' Fut stand for "Buddah"?

[VStanmore]

I'm a bit curious about CLF having 8 form Baqua. I thought Baqua was a Taosit form. And, doesnt' Fut stand for "Buddah"?

Greg,

You ask a very good question. From what I understand, where Chan Heung stayed to learn from his shaolin teacher Choy Fook, located on Mt Law fou, there were some surrounding taoist temples and this may have gave both Choy Fook and Chan Heung some "taoist-like" philosophical influences. And anyway, the old chinese philosophical concepts are quite commonplace in the culture if I'm not mistaken.
You know the philosophical concepts of wu chi giving birth to taichi and tai chi giving birth to leung yi (yin and yang) which gives birth to see jeurng and then to bagua. And the "five elements" theory. Hung Gar, which is very shaolin based, also has a "five element" section in the sup ying kuen.

I think you will find that CLF is a very complete kung fu system, with both external and internal practices, and both taoist-like and shaolin-based philosophical influences.
For example, the internal clf has training reminiscent of the shaolin yi jin jing (tendon changing exercise) as well as breathing exercises. But then the internal clf also has internal forms which seem to bear taoist-like philosophical names such as tai chi and wu chi (which is in fact a very advanced internal and fighting fist form). The animal forms and techniques are very shaolin-based, as you would also expect of the wooden dummies. There is even a wooden dummy incorporating hard chi gung, and a copper man dummy teaching accupressure point attacks. The bagua forms would seem to be based on taoist-like philosophy, where there are 8 trigrams of the bagua and so (if I'm not mistaken) there are 8 bagua forms, one for each trigram, and one more that is "the heart of the bagua forms" giving a total of 9.
I have noted mention of iron palm and iron body training in clf, and there is supposedly/apparently even a copperman dit da formula associated with iron training. One of 4 famous students of chan yiu chi, Ha bic chi was supposedly known for his claws and golden bell.

Here you will find some info on clf forms etc. :http://www.clfsd.com/articles.html#system

As you will see, the system is very complete and sophisticated, and there are some very detailed specifics to the forms etc if you know them.

Of course there may be some who don't know and might make things up and ramble on and on!:D

[gregdread]

Thanks for the info VStanmore. I think it helps to be open-minded to the fact that various styles of Chinese martial arts all have some form internal/external exercises. While I've always read that the three internal styles were Tai Chai, Baqua and Xing Xi (Hsing I), are daoist based and created by generals and daoist monks, while the external styles (CLF, Wing Chun, Hung Gar, White Crane, Mantis) tended to be created from Shaolin monks (with internal exercises like tendon and bone-marrow development being taught by Bodhidharma or Damo).

Truth be known, I'm a student of a Hung Sing CLF teacher. That said, I don't want to get into a debate about lineage history, since I have little education on it, with most coming from this forum. Like all information I'm fortunate to obtain, I'll take whatever is offered and add it to the "also there is" area when passing on that information to others. The latest "back and forth" on the subject of the Green Grass Monk, and the creators of Hung Sing and Chan CLF, is a subject I'm enjoying learning about from both sides of the debate. It sort like a martial arts version of the Da Vinci Code?

All kinding aside, knowing one's history and honoring the ones who original develop the forms we learn is important, be that a Hung Sing or Chan CLF practitioner. Whose history is more accurate may always be debatable, but that does not mean the debate should not be respectable. Thanks for CLF historical education to all who contributed. :)

[hskwarrior]

it's really kind of funny that the chan people hijacked this thread to attack me, and the conversation about the green grass monk has stopped.

but guess what, the Chan Family does not have a green grass monk and Jeong Yim does. Jeong Yim taught Green Grass Monk's In and Out bagua. CHan Heung never got to learn that one. (isn't this how to start a bashing CHan People?)

i mean to say one school doesn't have what another teaches and to assume that they are any less for it needs an ass whoopin.

[hskwarrior]

You people are so blinded by the Chan Family CLF that you don't even see the obvious.

From the get go, meaning long ago, the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon always preached about the green grass monk. We are the only ones to come up with as much info on him that we have.

The only thing the Chan Family has said that Choy Fook was Monk Ching Cho. However, any info on the Green Grass Monk stops there when it comes to Old Greenie. It should make you wonder why they don't have more info recorded on him since he was Chan Heung's teacher. right? i mean he tells alot about Choy Fook, but where are the descriptions (including the burned head) of the Green Grass Monk?

From the Chan Family there is NONE. that's why. Green Grass Monk was one of Jeong Yim's teachers, had nothing to do with CHan Heung not one bit.

For any CHan Family members out there, when it comes to the green grass monk, if you claim him in your lineage then you are stealing from Jeong Yim.

Chan Learned from CHan Yuan Wu, Choy Fook, and Lee Yau Sa. there is no mention of the green grass monk.

I want to know why the Chan family wants to include Jeong Yim's teacher in THEIR own lineage?

[dragon323]

Hskwarriors say:

"Because Lau Bun learned through his sifu (yuen Hai) the most early beginnings of Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut. You see, Yuan Hai was a long time student of Jeong Yim, who taught the In and out Bagua Kuen.

So you can say Lau Bun has some pretty old Choy Lee Fut.

we teach Sup Gee Kau da Kuen. Ping Kuen was never a set we practiced. we have a cheung kuen from Lau Bun, but the Fut San Cheung Kuen is much different. Lau Bun's Cheung Kuen is like Fut San's Che Kuen, only 3 times longer."

Thanks for your answer.

I like asking oneself more:

1 - How many years had studied Yuen Hai with Jeong Yim, and in than dates?

2 - How many years had studied Lau Bun with Yuen Hai, and in than dates?

3 - Which are the Lau Bun´s hand forms that you teach?

[hskwarrior]

dragon323,

you can email me and i will answer your questions since your question is only for me, i think it is better that way.

I look forward to your email.

[VStanmore]

Hi Frank,

"if Jeong Yim learned all of Chan Heung's 8 Bagua Sets, then how do you explain that not one of them are taught in the Fut San Hung SIng Kwoon?"

May be Jeong Yim has not learned the Bagua sets, or may be he didn't have the time to teach them in Futsan. Why don't you ask the Futsan people?

The theories of Yin/Yang, Bagua and Wuxing are the foundations of Chinese philosophy, so it is not surprising that CLF would have them built into the system.

As to who made them all up over time, it is hard to be sure, but Chan Yiu-Chi was definitely the first in the family systematically written them down based on knowledge passed down by his grandfather Chan Heung and his father Koon Pak. Don't forget others may also have kept records they learned from their teachers before Yiu-Chi's time.

Isn't it amazing that Chen Yong-Fa actually learned from his grandfather, the same Chan Yiu-Chi and he is still alive and teaching? What other CMA can you find that nowadays? I sat in one of Barry Hale's class in SF with Ng Fu Heng, they are dedicated and and knowledgeable people and you should check them out before you keep bashing the Chan Family.

EJ

Hi EJ,

I suppose hung sing kuen doesn't have the Choy Lee Fut animal forms too?

So no jongs, internal CLF or bagua forms?

But why should we expect them to have these if they don't do CLF, but do Hung sing kuen from fut gar jing jung.

"if know the most possible method was called Fut Ga Jing Jong"

:D :D

[hskwarrior]

actually,

My branch teaches and practices an Internal form we call Um Ying Kuen.

It is usually taught as an internal form but i like doing it fast.

Jong's In my branch we have Jong sets for almost every hand set. We teach those to the ones we know will stick around and not get lost after learning a few forms.

Bagua, i don't need bagua.

And finally, If Jeong Yim didn't develop his own CLF you guys have yet to explain why the Fut San HSK doesn't teach any of the Chan Family sets.

[VStanmore]

A. That is because Futsan don't do CLF, they do Hung Sing Kuen from Fut Gar Jing Jung.

A. That is because you don't do CLF, you do Hung Sing Kuen from Fut Gar Jing Jung.

"If you don't have it, make it up??"

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41515

"if know the most possible method was called Fut Ga Jing Jong."

:D

[VStanmore]

Maybe the karate guys can MAKE UP a jong for each of their kata, and teach it to their black belts!:D

[VStanmore]

actually,

My branch teaches and practices an Internal form we call Um Ying Kuen.

It is usually taught as an internal form but i like doing it fast.

.

What are the principles and essence of internal Choy Lee Fut?

What makes a CLF form internal? Because you do it SLOW ??:D

CLF?? A. That is because you don't do CLF, you do Hung Sing Kuen from Fut Gar Jing Jung.

"if know the most possible method was called Fut Ga Jing Jong."

:D

[VStanmore]

If I am not mistaken, your "Um Ying Kuen" is the same five animal form that DFW teaches and he has written a book on it called Shaolin Five Animals. It is NOT a Choy Lee Fut form, but supposedly a "shaolin" form which Lau Bun learnt not from Yuen Hai, but Yuen Hai's wife.

So NO. You do not have an internal Choy Lee Fut form.
You don't have any Choy Lee Fut animal forms??

CLF??


A. That is because you don't do CLF, you do Hung Sing Kuen from Fut Gar Jing Jung.

"if know the most possible method was called Fut Ga Jing Jong."

:D

[hskwarrior]

Fool,

I never said to you that we practiced CLF internal. I said we have internal from Lau Bun.

Where did you see me say We teach CLF internal?

you don't.

To Tell you the truth, you can keep all your chan family CLF because i am completely happy with the CLF that Lau Bun has passed down, and that of the Fut San Hsk.

See, the one thing you cannot change is that Jeong Yim's name and CLF are synonymous. The one difference is that CHan Heung has His CHoy Lee Fut, and Jeong Yim has his.

It is people like you and Joseph that keep the fire going that if it don't come from Chan Heung it ain't CLF.

Well you are wrong. Completely. You guys are the ones more mad that we don't practice or preach your families version of CLF. We pass on the tradition of the Fut San Hung SIng Kwoon, whether it's Fut Gar Jing Jong, Hung Sing Kuen or Hung SIng Choy Lee Fut, the fact of the matter is Jeong Yim's Hung SIng Kwoon is one of the most famous in southern China.

As I've said, while Chan Heung's Lineage is Choy Fook, Lee Yau San and CHan Yuan Wu. While Jeong Yim's Lineage is Lee Yau San, Chan Heung, and Monk Ching Cho.

Now, if Chan Heung sent Jeong Yim to Fut San, you guys still can't explain why he changed the name from whatever it was to use his own.

Possibly he changed the name of whatever the school was called that was ran by the old blind guy, to that of his hung sing kwoon because he was developing the gung fu he learned separately from that of Chan Heung. Maybe that is the reason why you don't find Chan Family CLF in the FUt San Hung SIng Kwoon.

There are no photo's of CHan Heung in any fut san HSK around the world, we don't teach Chan Heung's type of Choy Lee Fut, however, the pay more homage to the green grass monk more than anything.

Once again, the chan family practices Chan Family CLF, while in Fut San they Practice CLF that was passed down from Jeong Yim. I know you think it's fun trying to make a fool of me, but i know for sure you don't have the heart to contact the fut san hung sing kwoon and speak to them with such arrogance.

See, I understand where joseph comes from. He fights for the honor of his chan family lineage. That's totally cool. I will do and have been the same for my branch. All you guys have done is spout off Chan Heung This Jeong Yim didn't do that or this, but you have failed to tell me exactly what it is that Chan Heung says that Jeong Yim did.

From the stand point of the Fut San Hung SIng Kwoon it just looks like Chan Family members trying to stir up trouble. I mean, who gave the Chan Family the right to try and tell us about a disciple that didn't even stick around them that long?

I just hope by this stupid arse bickering shows the onlookers that the Chan Famiily will fight for their spotlight as long as they can. What they don't realize is that the Fut San HSK doesn't even care about what they have to say about our branch. Maybe I shouldn't care either. As I was saying, I hope that all this makes people realize "if you want to learn about Fut San Hung SIng Choy Lee Fut, then you should start their and research their history.

Don't rely on Chan Family information when it comes to Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon. I am personally starting to think that there was some bad blood between Chan Family and HSK because Jeong Yim changed the name of Chan Heung's students school, and made a name for himself.

Go to www.hongshengguan.com and start there.

I don't care about How joseph and this other guy are talking smack. it doesn't bother me because i know they are clueless to happenings at the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon. They are as clueless to my branch as i am to theirs. But since they want to control the history they want to tell US about OUR history. But at least i can admit my Ignorance of CHan Family CLF.

[VStanmore]

Fool,

I never said to you that we practiced CLF internal. I said we have internal from Lau Bun.

Where did you see me say We teach CLF internal?

you don't.


There are no photo's of CHan Heung in any fut san HSK around the world, we don't teach Chan Heung's type of Choy Lee Fut, however, the pay more homage to the green grass monk more than anything.
.
A. That is because Futsan don't do CLF, they do Hung Sing Kuen from Fut Gar Jing Jung.
"if know the most possible method was called Fut Ga Jing Jong."
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41515

:D

[VStanmore]

Possibly he changed the name of whatever the school was called that was ran by the old blind guy, to that of his hung sing kwoon because he was developing the gung fu he learned separately from that of Chan Heung. Maybe that is the reason why you don't find Chan Family CLF in the FUt San Hung SIng Kwoon.

.
Well even within the same branch or lineage, content can easily change and get lost with time and successive generations, as people might learn or remember things wrong, change and/or adapt, or simply forget and make-up missing or forgotten things. There is also possibility that as time goes by, people make up things to fulfill a need not satisfied already by what they have, or to take the place of something they did not inherit or learn from the previous generation.

That is why it is so important to DOCUMENT AND RECORD the contents and information through manuscripts and kuen Po as did Chan Heung and his family. So even if successive generations adapt what they learn, the more original material of the previous generation is still accessible through manuscripts/kuen po for the future generations, keeping the system relatively intact.

Not surprising if futsan did not have (??) kuen pos and written documentation, the further removed they are from Chan Heung's family, the less their material will resemble the Choy Lee Fut as passed on by its founder, Chan Heung.

You can see this even with forms of the same name. For example, sup ji kau da and ping kuen are names of forms found in Chan Heun's Choy Lee Fut, as is Tid jin cheung kuen. But ping kuen of futsan may be different to that of Chan Heung's family....why? Well not hard to understand the possibility given the possible reasons as outlined above, especially if they did not keep kuen pos, and as time goes on and the further they are removed from the family of Chan Heung, the chances are they will look even more different and unrecognisable except in name??

By the way, sup ji kau da, ping kuen, tid jin cheung kuen are only primary level forms. There are more advanced secondary level forms such as the bagua sum, and there are advanced tertiary level forms such as the choy lee fut animal forms.

So you don't have any choy lee fut animal forms??

Or,

A. That is because Futsan don't do CLF, they do Hung Sing Kuen from Fut Gar Jing Jung.
"if know the most possible method was called Fut Ga Jing Jong."
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...ad.php?t=41515

:D

[extrajoseph]

Don't rely on Chan Family information when it comes to Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon. I am personally starting to think that there was some bad blood between Chan Family and HSK because Jeong Yim changed the name of Chan Heung's students school, and made a name for himself.

Go to www.hongshengguan.com and start there.

I don't care about How joseph and this other guy are talking smack. it doesn't bother me because i know they are clueless to happenings at the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon. They are as clueless to my branch as i am to theirs. But since they want to control the history they want to tell US about OUR history. But at least i can admit my Ignorance of CHan Family CLF.

Hi Frank,

In your fundamentalist-like enthusiasm to promote the history of Futsan Hung Sing, you have turned Jeong Yim, a great fighter of CLF, into a Judas.

You have now portrayed him as a traitor who has the disrespect and the c