walking the bow vs. walking the string

[Xiao3 Meng4]

i've recently started doing some archery, and have had some new insights into this kuen kuit. think of holding drawn bow and arrow. the arrow's flight is determined in large part by the angle of the arrow relative to gravity. The angle is changeable by either adjusting the bow hand while the string hand remains stationary or by adjusting the string hand while the bow hand remains the pivot point. These two techniques are respectively known as walking the bow and walking the string.


I was wondering what other people's experiences were with this saying.

CSP

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


A couple of possibles!


Physical body:


Walk the bow = Hard Bow body structure like Mantis, White Brow, etc..

Walk the string = String of pearls body structure (dung tao/ting yiu)


Application:


Walk the bow = Arcing or sweeping "()" striking theory

Walk the string = Straight down the line striking theory


Just a few ideas!



Peace,

[Jeff Bussey]

I like to think of walking the string with respect to energy, like what you get when you pull back on the string and then release it vs the bow which is already set and has no build up or potential energy

J

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


I like to think of walking the string with respect to energy, like what you get when you pull back on the string and then release it vs the bow which is already set and has no build up or potential energy

Nice post.

What part of the String do you pull on?


Peace,

[CFT]

I like to think of walking the string with respect to energy, like what you get when you pull back on the string and then release it vs the bow which is already set and has no build up or potential energyI don't think this picture is correct. The potential energy is actually in the bow. The string is the means with with we effect the energy transfer - from muscles to bow and then bow to arrow.

So I still have no idea what this kuen kuit is trying to address.

[Jim Roselando]

Walk the Bow

[Jim Roselando]

Walk the String

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Interesting pics. Here's how I relate to them:

Walking the bow
The idea is that the bridge is the bow. When walking the bow in archery, the string hand remains stationary, usually by the ear, eye, jaw, or nipple. So, to walk the bow is to move the bridge in order to allow a clear path for the back hand (stationary hand.)

Walking the string
When walking the string in archery, the bow hand remains stationary; hence when the bridge is established, it is not the bridge hand that adjusts in order to accomodate the back hand, but the back hand that adjusts in order to accomodate the situation as understood by the bridge hand. So the punch can come frome anywhere, based on how the bridge is formed and what gates are open, closed, guarded or unguarded. Hence the formless posture in the picture.

This all ties heavily into Man Sau/Wu Sau theory, imo.

Christian

[ntc]

Actually, the meaning behind this proverb is very simple. It is based on the WC principle that you should lead with your elbow and not with your wrist. Here the bow refers to the elbow which is the one in control, wheras the string refers to the wrist which is the one that delivers the fist/blow (the third component, which is the arrow) into the opponent.

The proverb was frequently used to illustrate to students how their structure should feel like. The student is taught to differentiate between leading with the elbow or with the wrist, using the analogy of the bow and string.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

hey, that's cool. My initial introduction to the proverb was of the simple "it takes longer to go from point a to point b walking along a bow than on a string."

CSP

[Jeff Bussey]

Hello,


I like to think of walking the string with respect to energy, like what you get when you pull back on the string and then release it vs the bow which is already set and has no build up or potential energy

Nice post.

What part of the String do you pull on?


Peace,
Hey Jim,
First off, I'm not an archer (if that's even the correct term). So my comment about the idiom, comes just from my head and not picking up a bow and arrow. I simply see that the string is neutral until we give it energy (pulling it back). Releasing the string, sends out the energy and in this case, into the form of an arrow which could be let's say our fist. After releasing that energy it goes back to being neutral, until we pull on it again.
The bow as I see it, (may or may not be correct) is that it has no energy in it. It's static (no real movement), so IMO if you are in a fixed position, you can't build up energy on it's own.

IMO, the bow is dead and the string is alive.

Then again this may be a lot of fancy talking bs, but that is one of the ways I interpret that idiom

:)

J

[Jeff Bussey]

I don't think this picture is correct. The potential energy is actually in the bow. The string is the means with with we effect the energy transfer - from muscles to bow and then bow to arrow.

So I still have no idea what this kuen kuit is trying to address.

Hey CFT,
Like I said to Jim, I have no experience with a bow and arrow, couldn't tell you how much it weighs, size, material it's made out of... nothing.

But IMO, there is more than one way to interpret an idiom. So the first thing that comes to mind is it's quicker to travel a straight line than a curved line to get from A to B.
That's on the surface and fair enough. Maybe that's all that we're really meant to get out of it. When I look at it a little further, because that's just the way I am, I see it in the form of energy or maybe it's static vs. dynamic. All I know, is like I said to Jim, the string starts neutral, get's energy, releases energy, back to neutral. That is something that we practice in wing chun. Maybe in reality the energy does come from the bow, I don't know, and if that is the case, the energy comes from the bow but the string uses it to launch and arrow. Which again relates to wing chun.


J

[Jeff Bussey]

Actually, the meaning behind this proverb is very simple. It is based on the WC principle that you should lead with your elbow and not with your wrist. Here the bow refers to the elbow which is the one in control, wheras the string refers to the wrist which is the one that delivers the fist/blow (the third component, which is the arrow) into the opponent.

The proverb was frequently used to illustrate to students how their structure should feel like. The student is taught to differentiate between leading with the elbow or with the wrist, using the analogy of the bow and string.

Hey NTC,
Just a quick thing, if the bow is the elbow and the string is the wrist, and you say that the idiom describes to lead with the elbow. Then why is the idiom, "you walk the bow, I walk the string"

J

[Jeff Bussey]

Ok,
So I'm having a pretty good convo with myself right now. I'm actually enjoying it:D
Which is sad and means I should probably spend more of my time with people than alone.
Anyway,
Just thought of something, the idiom says you walk the bow, I walk the arrow. Does that also mean if you walk the arrow, I walk the bow?

J

[ntc]

Then why is the idiom, "you walk the bow, I walk the string"

J

Jeff:

There are three components used with the bow and the string... (with the third actually involves the arrow as well)

1. "The bow is the elbow and the string is the wrist", as we talked about previously.

2. "You walk with the bow, and I walk with the string" - you folks nailed it on the head in describing the pathway to the target. The bow is used to hunt down the right weakness of the target before the weapon can be fired, so it is always aiming, and seeking, and mostly in preparation mode. The string implies a very direct approach to the target... no need to find the perfect opening, but when you see the target you chase the target and create the opening. This is frequently used when we train students in Lut Sao Guo Sao, when we help students build a bridge to an opponent's forearms. It also refers to the fact that WC's approach is based on the principle that the shortest distance between two objects is the direct line connect the two, hence the straight line representing the string. We explain to the student that if the centerline is controlled by you, you will always have the direct, quickest way to your opponent, wheras your opponent now has to maneuver around your centerline, ie curve around it lke the curvature of the bow.

3. "Controlled and directed by bow, delivered by the string, hit by the arrow"... as previously talked about, is often used to describe to a student how a basic WC punch is delivered and how the energy is originated and transitioned.

[couch]

Jeff:

2. "You walk with the bow, and I walk with the string" - you folks nailed it on the head in describing the pathway to the target. The bow is used to hunt down the right weakness of the target before the weapon can be fired, so it is always aiming, and seeking, and mostly in preparation mode. The string implies a very direct approach to the target... no need to find the perfect opening, but when you see the target you chase the target and create the opening. This is frequently used when we train students in Lut Sao Guo Sao, when we help students build a bridge to an opponent's forearms. It also refers to the fact that WC's approach is based on the principle that the shortest distance between two objects is the direct line connect the two, hence the straight line representing the string. We explain to the student that if the centerline is controlled by you, you will always have the direct, quickest way to your opponent, wheras your opponent now has to maneuver around your centerline, ie curve around it lke the curvature of the bow.


Can we then reverse the thinking? He walks the string, I have to walk some sort of bow?

Just to get everyone talking!

I think that when the opponent walks the string, we have to walk the bow with our footwork to change the angle and then still be direct after the feet have done the work.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[ntc]

Of course you can.... remember that the proverbs (kuen kuit) are there for one to fully comprehend the foundation and inner mechanics of the style. The key here is to HELP UNDERSTAND. You should be able to use any of these kuen kuit as well as any examples of your own to help you teach your student. For example, if you were trying to teach a student the concept of the centerline as the shortest distance, you could something like a car crossing an intersection. It is obvious that the shortest time to cross that intersection is to drive straight through it instead of zigzagging left and right through it..... your student will be able to grasp that pretty easily.