real kung fu will not be contained to a style.

[tungmojingjung]

There are many factors to traditional Chinese martial arts with no one particular style holding any rank on another. It is always been the person and not the style, cause truly without the person there is no style. Often times through these forums and other outlets countless debates arise stemming from geneology, hisorical accounting etc. In my opinion the fact of the matter is none of us was their during the conception and formulation and so we are only left with someones interpretation. When we make the style bigger than the person in my opinion we shorten our growth potential sort of like "not seeing the forest for the trees". All kung fu styles have value, but the question is can the student utilize the skills contained therein. Utimately I think its a personal discovery truly learning about ones self. This may have a learner seeking out answers that are outside of a particular style. Some teachers take that old fashion mentality of one Sifu in ones lifetime but one Sifu doesn't have all the answers and thats why it's a personal quest. There is no discovery like self discovery breaking the mold of something and or someone else. Like my first teacher Yuan Chan used to say to us, "always keep striving for knowledge". I say if you train a particular style and it feels good to you by all means stick with it, but if you coninually thirst for knowledge begin your quest there is so much to explore.

[Fu-Pow]

Amen. And if you don't spar with hard contact then don't claim that you know how to fight. Form and fighting are two different things. I think a lot of these disputes would be settled if people focused less on the forms and more on putting on gear and testing their stuff out.

FP

[hskwarrior]

Nice Sentiments troy........but what triggered you to write what you wrote?
did something happen? I mean this just came out of nowhere.

Fu Pow, you make me laugh. All you do is talk about forms, and now you are talking about putting on gear and stuff........WTF?

So, now you are some fighter or something?

[hskwarrior]

And to Expound and what you're saying.......

gung fu has and will always be an individual endeavor. Gung fu is just a tool. what matters is what you do with that tool. will you just hang it on the wall in the garage, or will you actually use that tool?

But, just becuase you were given a tool, doesn't mean you can become a carpentor over night. Each and evey martial arts style has great merit, but its the person behind it that makes it great. with an open mind you can take karate into another level. Hell, i've seen LKH's CLF done in karate gi's and executed as if it were a karate style.

Our sifu's are the master carpenter's and we are their apprenctices. we watch and learn, until we can go out on our own and show the world what we learned, and how we understand and master what we learned.

Does this mean you have to jump from style to style to reach your goal? sometimes yes, sometimes no. if you have a good sifu who can use the stuff and teach it to you in a way you can comprehend its meaning, then you NEVER have to switch style after style in search of greatness.

at least for CLF all I've ever need is in there. From defense, to offense, to escapes, joint locks, bone breaking, maiming, controlling, or even killing.

its all in your systems right in front of you. If you can't see or smell the roses under your noses, then what is it exactly are you looking for? (rhetorical troy;) )

are you guys looking for the Bruce Lee Roy whole body glow? Or what about levitating? What about kicking the guys ass with just your mind power?

what is it about your system that you don't understand with all the years many of you put it? you are not able to see whats right in front of you??????

WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING FOR?

hsk

[tungmojingjung]

As I understand now, kung fu is the building blocks to boxing and weaponry. The two are entirely different. Kung fu can truly be expressed through boxing and weaponry and cooking, etc.

[hskwarrior]

what did you understand before now?

kung fu = skill. chef's too can be called sifu.

hsk

[tungmojingjung]

I think sometimes when we allow ourselves to be too confined to this or that we fail to realize there is an abundance of stuff out there just waiting to be tapped into. For example the power and intelligence of "Yee Kuen". How to most effectively use one power and energy. But first it have to be devloped, cultivated, exercised, directed and ultimately being able to use it at will. Every style doesn't adhere to the same principles and or skills, it is truly dependant upon the students needs and wants. I really don't think Choy Lee Fut give a clear picture of wrestling type movements unlike suai chiao, or the ground skill of dai tong, when it comes to the streets this is where it most times end up. When its all said and done whats a clf punch, karate punch, boxer punch, a punch is just a punch if done correctly. My understanding now allows me to see how ridicules it sounds to say my arm is doing a kung fu punch or karate punch, either way you use the same muscle group to get the same result, it's just my opinion. Every style has the ability to do damage but if thats truly the reason for learning why not just get a gun and start shooting. But consider the foundation how that yin and yang prouduce tao and then translating that into martial theory and practice. We should be at a point where we want to elevate our minds as well as our bodies but most seem to just want the physical skill. As for me Choy Lee Fut is a good style, but for me at this stage of my life I can't see myself doing clf the way it's properly called for. But what intrigues me is to use the amount of force of a sow choy in short range distant, force than can be felt but not seen, this I witnessed on my last trip to hong kong. Even more so as I talk with some old school teachers and as they have even stated that's what they did back in the day travelled the country learning and comprehending all that they could. Some kung fu styles are derived from teachers learning various skills then combining them together for a feeling of more completeness. I think people should be free to learn what ever they want without a guilt trip, after all, most are obligated on a month to month basis, if I pay sifu this month I practice this month. I paid and the sifu is obligated to teach, when the time frame is complete the obligation is over.
I took myquest in the beginning from the inspiration of Lau Gar Leung, thats who I pattern my learning after, I tried to learn every thing he did, and when it was said and done I still wasn't satisfied. What actually satisfied me was to re-think what I was doing. Now the emphasis have changed and everything seems new and exciting again and i'm eager to practice but then thats just me and my discovery, each indiviual must find their own whether it be one style or multiple.

[hskwarrior]

well, i guess that's the road you are on troy i mean with the new style and everything.

but for me, yes CLF has wrestling type moves, thai boxing type moves with knees and elbows. Bascially, for my survival, CLF has EVERYTHING IN IT I NEED.

I'm sorry you can't say that for yourself. because i feel with the right teacher you can open up major worlds of possibilities when it comes to CLF.

but i hope you are on the right road for you personally now.


good luck in the future.

oh, if CLF isn't your flavor anymore.....why do you still teach CLF?

Just a question, just a question. no harm done.

hsk

[tungmojingjung]

Actually I don't teach Choy Lee Fut anymore, my students do, I don't push the other stuff on them, they like CLF and wish to continue in it, I have no problem with that. Don't get me wrong, I still like CLF it's just that I can't see myself performing it with speed and powerful the older I get. So now I focus on a softer more relaxed type of power that I can play as I get into my senior years. But I applaud you on all you are doing for Choy Lee Fut and wish you every success.

[hskwarrior]

troy

what are you saying? you're not much older than me?

older years?????


ah hell,......its time to end my life now.


you got me feeling hella old, dude.


hsk

[hskwarrior]

troy

what are you saying? you're not much older than me?

older years?????


ah hell,......its time to end my life now.


you got me feeling hella old, dude.


hsk

[tungmojingjung]

i'm approaching senior hood, so unfortunately you are close behind me. But what the hell we'll do it in style!

[CLFNole]

"Hell, i've seen LKH's CLF done in karate gi's and executed as if it were a karate style."

It is amazing what a plum flower poster can do for someone. :D

[fiercest tiger]

forms are for health and fitness, fighting isnt about forms regardless of my art uses this punch or that kick at the end of the day you need to fight and sparring and grappling is the only way.

Garry:)

[Green Cloud]

Tungmo, sounds like youre going through some mid life crisis or something. I feel for you I'm in the midst of an injury and have wondered if it would of been better if I did win chun, that I could stand all pigion toed and move very little.

I realized that, hey when we get older we also get wiser so we improvize and modify our movements. CLF has enoughf material especialy internal stuff, modify and internalize your movement.

As we get older performing forms play like dancing so leave it for the young. You should focus more on the bag of tricks that make you an effective MA. Take the Fat jung set it's all internal and desighned for the aging sifu.

[tungmojingjung]

Green Cloud,

No mid life crisis, just a realization for me may I add. I'm 44 years and realize I can't play CLF for example the way I did when I started over 20 years ago, maintaining its call for speed and power etc. So now I approach things differently where my power and energy is reserved and i'm not fatiqued, and i'm not out of breath after playing a set the way it's supposed to be done. If you are my age and have maintained your vitality my hats off to you, but most that i've seen at my age and older are totally out of breath after performing a single set what more in a five minute fight. Age is a aspect of life that none of us can escape father time will catch up with us all. But then again this is for me if what ever you are doing works for you more power to you. My gung fu today feels as strong as its ever been and simply because a little re-structuring of what I was doing.

[Green Cloud]

I can totally relate. Could you tell me what kind of restructuring you did, and what is working for you today? Just for my own edification if you don't mind sharing.

[hasayfu]

Great topic. The title is apt in saying it won't be contained to a style. Look at most if not all of the great masters. They all looked to high level players of other styles. Using my personal lineage, my sifu has obviously studied various styles extensively. Both Sigungs learned from outside the system to both test their understandings and compare with others.

How that manifests is up to the individual. My Sigungs both stayed with their original styles. My Sifu keeps his styles seperate though has his own blending and suggest others to find their own. And you get others who synthesize their blend to pass on to future generations.

The key to this topic, though, is often overlooked. It doesn't mean that one can do a little X and do a little Y figure out what works and create something new. I know Sifu Dunwood and he has done the work and gained the insight to evolve his kung fu. It's the natural progression. Even if he stayed to one style this should happen. As my Sifu says, "If my kung fu looks the same as it did 5 years ago, I have not progressed"

Now I don't know CLF but I would wager that at high levels of CLF, things have economized. Many of those large movements tightened. More effecient paths found. It will still look like CLF but there is an "old tiger" version. I don't mean slowed down sets but an actual elevation of skill that emphasizes different things. This is true of Hung Gar.

It's not a mid-life crisis to go this path. It would be a mid-life crisis to insist that as you grow older, you still do "young tiger" things. Now where are the keys to my fire engine red porsche...

[hskwarrior]

See,

I would agree Hasayfu, however, what the outside world to Choy Lee Fut sees is what's in front of them. What they don't see is "WHY" the moves are longer or more strethced out. What you see typically is how someone performs their hand or weapon forms.

What no one here is talking about is "HOW WE USE IT" in real life combat.

Would i spread so far out in real life combat? Yes, and No. It truly depends on the situation.

With all of the open doors while doing our extended CLF techniques, don't you realize that maybe we have ways to close that door when needed to be closed?

Just because people see the long range of Choy Lee Fut, they completely neglect the fact that CLF is great in any range be it long short or medium. Plus it's also about "WHO" is applying the CLF. Is the person a known fighter, or someone who reads books alot on his off time. Different mindsets breeds different aspects of the same object. (OOOOH I liked that;) )

Don't get me wrong Hasayfu, but you say you know very little on CLF, and since you only know very little you wouldn't know the inside of CLF like CLF so called "players" would.

its always nice to ask questions of people who do our stlye, i'm sure someone could give you some good insight.

hsk

[tungmojingjung]

GreenCloud,

What i did was synthesize my learning at this point. I inter-connected techniques from different styles yet playing them with the flow of the internal, or more specific the eight immortals chi gong form. In this fashion i'm still able to keep some of the treasuresd skills of multiple systems with a little re-structuring in my opinion to maximize it's effectiveness for me. No, I will not say a new style however a re-structuring yes.

Hasayfu,

I am at the point in my life where i'm able to rise above this style or that style mentality. All fighters use the same muscle groups to exercise boxing or fighting skills, all fighters can do the same movements cause we're all human. My point here is, as a fighter, free to do, what I have to do, whenever I have to do it ,with whatever I have to do it with. This post wasn't so much about physical skill and techniques rather AWARENESS. My point was my arm don't know a clf punch from a karate punch, all it knows is that its moving, striking something and actually it doesn't know that until the brain tells it etc. Just as our stomach can't make the difference between steak or lobster. I think we condition ourselves to think or be this or that when actually it just IS. For me personally there is no this or that. Some will say, then why do you still teach the different systems? and I say my understanding allows me to be free from confining my self to any one thought process. And thats why Tung Mo is truly more of a statement instead of a name. (Tung Mo: Rise High In Martial Learning)