Why CMA Doesn't Win the UFC [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

neilhytholt

05-08-2006, 05:25 AM

So after last week where I was looking for a school, any school, that allowed me to train but didn't require me to learn their version of their forms.

It really hit me. Why doesn't CMA win the UFC? CMA has striking, right? CMA has grappling, right? CMA has kicking, right? So why doesn't CMA win the UFC?

Could it be because of the emphasis on forms, rather than techniques? Could it be that the very premise of CMA is flawed?

Think about it. Go from one boxing gym to another, how long does it take you to work out with another person? About 2 seconds, right? Go from one BJJ school to another, how long does it take you to roll with somebody? Your first day, right? Go to a Muay Thai school or kickboxing school, how long until you're working techniques with a partner? First day, right? If not the first day, then shortly thereafter.

How many forms do you have to learn for any of these? None. Except maybe Muay Thai if it's totally traditional, but not the way it's taught in kickboxing schools.

Perhaps the very premise of CMA being based upon forms is faulty if you consider that obviously it doesn't produce good fighters.

Shaolinlueb

05-08-2006, 05:32 AM

neilhytholt

05-08-2006, 05:49 AM

um, i guess maybe. i hardly see people practice the fighting aspect of it too much. htere are schools that do. chinese military systems do too. yeah plus no pressure points in ufc and no fish hooking and individual finger or toe locks. there goes a good arsenal of moves :(

plus this had been discussed many times. also is it me or is ufc tailored more towards jj and those arts.

It's probably been discussed, but I never really considered it myself. I guess I shouldn't have wasted the space. Anyways, I think the training regime of CMA is the problem. Too much forms work and too little free partner practice and sparring.

That, plus if you change schools you have to do all their forms all over again, which wastes a ton of time.

IMHO CMA is a great time waster and money maker for instructors who can convince students to practice weapons forms for weapons not used in 100 years or more, but that's it.

Golden Arms

05-08-2006, 05:57 AM

Fu-Pow

05-08-2006, 06:01 AM

Anyways, I think the training regime of CMA is the problem. Too much forms work and too little free partner practice and sparring.
.

Absolutely. The forms are so dense with information that just knowing one would be enough. So why so many forms? Personally, I gave up on learning forms about a year ago (27 at last count) and I'm focused more on free sparring and ways to train applications.

Boxers, wrestlers, muy thai you start practicing with a partner from day one. TCMA you spend a lot of time, by yourself, learning forms on forms on forms.

Forms have there place but they are overemphasized to the exclusion of partner training both coreographed and freestyle....and ultimately that's where you're going to learn how to fight.

SiuHung

05-08-2006, 06:18 AM

Perhaps the very premise of CMA being based upon forms is faulty if you consider that obviously it doesn't produce good fighters.

The premise of CMA? No.
I gather from your post you've been unable to find a teacher who has the relative experience or desire to train students in the martial aspects. Keep looking...they're out there. Good luck finding that in most martial arts, regardless of ethinic origin.

One word of advice however...If you're looking for dominance in the UFC, i.e. to be a professional fighter, go hang out in an MMA gym. Chances are you will have a very short lived career at it unless you are a natural.

Royal Dragon

05-08-2006, 06:26 AM

Chief Fox

05-08-2006, 07:29 AM

I see your point. I just left a school that was forms based. But the base of any CMA style is the forms. This doesn't mean that all you practice is the forms. This couldn't be further from the truth. The only way to become a good fighter is to practice drill and spar with another person. My current sifu says all the time that punching air only gets you so far. To make the techniques work you have to drill them.

Boxing, you have to drill the combinations over and over again. Same thing with BJJ, Same with Muay Tai and it should be the same at your kung fu school.

My current instructor has us spend about 10 to 15 minutes max on forms per class and the next 45 minutes to an hour drilling two man applications.

Maybe I'm just one of the lucky ones.

Also...

I'm really getting tired of all martial arts being measured by their effectiveness in the UFC. Since when did the UFC become the be-all in martial arts? Can you kick a guy in the nuts? NO! Many, many martial arts techniques either begin or end with a kick to the nuts. You can't do this in the UFC. So how can they call it the "ULTIMATE"? I study 7 star praying mantis. There are A LOT of groin strikes, throat attacks and eye pokes. All of which are illegal moves in the UFC (for good reason). So what am I left with? Footwork, kicks, punches, Chin Na. All of which are already in the UFC. If you ask me, the UFC is filled with the legal moves of CMA. Which also just happen to be the legal moves in other martial arts as well.

tug

05-08-2006, 07:31 AM

I would just like to say, as I have said before (though not rememberably), every human being has their own singular opinion/belief about life and how they get through it. "Whatever works for you", basically. TCMA or just simply CMA is about forms. We all know this. It is up to the individual to decide which or what style/form/application/mode/hold/attack/defense/responsibility/respect/lineage/history/legend/following/code or actual art is best for them. Having said that, it is my belief that forms are a way of having more than enough than too little. IMO, the idea was to compile an arsenal of moves (all inclusive) instead of just a couple that work. I relate it to "always bring more cable than you need, that way, you aren't stuck when you need more than the inventory stated". Am I making sense here?

All that being said, I am a UGE fan of UFC, Pride, K1 and enjoy immensely the heart (blood, sweat and tears really) of this new age of MMA and NHB fighters.

I am not here to dispute the "betterness" of TMA or MMA, I'm just trying to possibly state that the two are not alike. You say tomahto, I say tomato. Do what you do because you like it and it feels right for you.

I guess IMO these arguments are pointless as we are all different and do EVERYTHING for different reasons.

TuG.

neilhytholt

05-08-2006, 10:40 AM

Then go somewhere else...Why are you posting this on a Chinese Martial Arts forum? I went through your posts, and I have yet to find one where you are not *****ing. Why dont you head over to 6th and king street in Seattle, WA when you are there, and see if you have any doubts that those guys can fight.

I've been to Chinatown in Seattle (if you can call it Chinatown, it's the smallest one in any major city I've come across), and I know those guys can fight -- that is, the semi homeless guys hanging around outside, lol.

My main point isn't to diss CMA in particular or anything but rather make the observation that the training regime in most places doesn't seem convenient or conducive to creating good fighters. Obviously this won't be popular, I won't post this on here anymore.

neilhytholt

05-08-2006, 10:44 AM

My current instructor has us spend about 10 to 15 minutes max on forms per class and the next 45 minutes to an hour drilling two man applications.

Maybe I'm just one of the lucky ones.

You are one of the lucky ones, that's for sure.

All of which are illegal moves in the UFC (for good reason). So what am I left with? Footwork, kicks, punches, Chin Na. All of which are already in the UFC. If you ask me, the UFC is filled with the legal moves of CMA. Which also just happen to be the legal moves in other martial arts as well.

Right, so you'd expect if the training regime of most CMA schools was as effective as other arts, that the CMA fighters would do better. But this doesn't seem to be the case. Most of the UFC fighters instead seem to be taking boxing/kickboxing/BJJ.

Of course, UFC/Pride/etc. isn't the end all be all of fighting. It's a ring sport. But it is one of the few places where fighters actually seem to be fighting realistically outside the street.

neilhytholt

05-08-2006, 10:51 AM

You know, aftr much relection, I have come t the conclusion that forms were originally for TEACHERS to oranise thier curriculem. Thye were not for students.

After a time, with the advent of comercial schools, and health oriented students, forms became more and more popular for the athletic aspect. At the same time fighting was more and more frowned on as martial arts teachers were trying to rise on the social ladder, and fit in with the educated elite.

Kung Fu origianlly looked like MMA, techniqus, two man work, and lots and lots of drills. Forms were only practiced by teachers to review thier curriculem and keep some assemblance of conditioning.

It really seems like this is true and a big change seems to have happened in the past 20 years or so. When I took CMA in the '80s, mostly it was techniques, drills, punching, kicking and sparring. Forms were something that you did, but they were just for belt requirements. It wasn't like you started out with forms.

I've been talking to Tai Chi students of Doc Fai Wong (evidently my first sifu studied with Doc Fai Wong) and they've been saying that their tai chi starts out with drills and techniques from day 1. The form is something you study, but it's not necessary to get your feet wet.

Contrast that to the Tai Chi schools with somebody like Yang Jun (the Yang lineage holder), where it's nothing but form work for like a year or more until you get to push-hands, and they seem to teach few fighting aspects ever.

Hitman

05-08-2006, 01:11 PM

The reasons why CMA doesn't win the UFC
1. All teachers want to make a living. If you teach your students the real stuff (tradition way of training), you will unlikely to have a student left in your class after first day's training. You have to teach the water down techniques to your students inorder to keep them happy. I know a teacher who teaches the traditional way of training in praying mantis. When I was there learning praying mantis years ago, my forearms and shins were black and coverd with bruises after every lesson. The lessons were boring and painfully hurt. We started off with 15 people in the class and end up with 6 people after 1 month training (4 lessons). My ex-teacher was not making any money from his classs. He was doing it out of the love of teaching. He had been doing this for more than 20 years and had taught less than 50 people during this time.
2. Are you willing to get hurt in the UFC? Not many people want to get hurt in a fight. Many people will encourage other people to fight, but they themselves will never enter into any one of the NHB tournament. If you want to see people from CMA to win the UFC, then YOU should enter it yourself. I cannot enter myself in any of the NHB, because my wing chun was very badly taught and I will lose.
3. How many people are winning to train 7 hours a day inorder to win a tournament? Not many!

Hitman

David Jamieson

05-08-2006, 03:24 PM

BM2

05-08-2006, 06:32 PM

If Bruce Lee was around 30 and posting on here many would consider him a troll instead of a free thinker.

If by Rudyard Kipling

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build ‘em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: “Hold on!”

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son.

Ray Pina

05-08-2006, 06:43 PM

So after last week where I was looking for a school, any school, that allowed me to train but didn't require me to learn their version of their forms.
Perhaps the very premise of CMA being based upon forms is faulty if you consider that obviously it doesn't produce good fighters.

I would argue that this was not the original premise, but was pushed in that direction by government pressure to make something politcally dangerous flowery ... it continues today as wushu replaces function.

It continues in the US because teachers make a lot of money dangling form infront of students. Though I would have to ask which version of forms would you expect to learn from school (a) .... school (b)s? That makes no sense.

You have a few options:
1) Do something about it .... find a good CMA teacher and become a fighter yourself and go out and prove it works

2) Find a style that works for you and go out and fight

3) Complain about it on the internet and remain stagnant

neilhytholt

05-08-2006, 06:51 PM

I would argue that this was not the original premise, but was pushed in that direction by government pressure to make something politcally dangerous flowery ... it continues today as wushu replaces function.

It continues in the US because teachers make a lot of money dangling form infront of students. Though I would have to ask which version of forms would you expect to learn from school (a) .... school (b)s? That makes no sense.

You have a few options:
1) Do something about it .... find a good CMA teacher and become a fighter yourself and go out and prove it works

2) Find a style that works for you and go out and fight

3) Complain about it on the internet and remain stagnant

Well I was actually planning on quitting CMA period, but after much consideration, I'm thinking of dropping CMA in favor of martial arts styles where they don't do form work.

Merryprankster

05-08-2006, 06:53 PM

I'm really getting tired of all martial arts being measured by their effectiveness in the UFC. Since when did the UFC become the be-all in martial arts? Can you kick a guy in the nuts? NO! Many, many martial arts techniques either begin or end with a kick to the nuts. You can't do this in the UFC. So how can they call it the "ULTIMATE"? I study 7 star praying mantis. There are A LOT of groin strikes, throat attacks and eye pokes. All of which are illegal moves in the UFC (for good reason). So what am I left with? Footwork, kicks, punches, Chin Na. All of which are already in the UFC. If you ask me, the UFC is filled with the legal moves of CMA. Which also just happen to be the legal moves in other martial arts as well.

On the other hand....if you can't fight well, those attacks aren't going to do you much good anyway. Good weapons, but without the delivery system, they are not much use.

I know the street is not the ring, but you know what? The kwoon is not the street either. Everybody plays by rules for safety.

Otherwise, there'd be a lot of blind eunuchs with tracheotomies out there...

neilhytholt, here's my take for what it's worth. BJJ, Judo, Wrestling, etc, tend to attract a certain subset of people that WANT to compete. They are willing to do the things that that entails. Further, the sportive context within which these combative sports/arts exist is integral to the art itself. What I mean by that is simple: Nobody argues about whether Jason Morris in NY and the SJSU Judo club are good schools. Nobody argues about whether Arizona State and Iowa are good wrestling colleges. Nobody argues over who coached whom...people only argue over which place is BETTER. The standards are clear, and measured against those standards, you know where to go to find top quality instruction. Yes, there are local clubs and hobbyists - some of them quite bad. But if you WANT to find great instruction and compete, you can.

Contrast this with the state of "traditional" MA. The emphasis was never on competition. There are usually a billion different little associations each with their affiliate schools, no standardized rule sets and each with their own world champion. There are constant arguments over what constitutes good instruction, about what the art really is, about who is really a good coach. There are even arguments over who is truly representing the "style" and what that means (heck, look at WT/WC/VT). There are also infinitely more "hobbyists" - guys that show up maybe twice a week, and more informal, less professional schools with odd schedules that only really even meet twice a week or so.

To sum up. Lots of TCMA guys just don't care about competition and the UFC. And that's totally fine. Some of those guys could surely compete and do well. It would require training like a competitor, which they may or may not do. But many of them probably just don't care.

neilhytholt

05-08-2006, 06:59 PM

vision narrowing...opinion...hardening, get the bat revivifier robin, this stupid ass thread has made itslf a threat to gotham once again.

*Smacks original poster in back of head* You think this is a topic? Troll. lol

Now go read Chuck Liddell's tatoo 1000 times and stuff a bag of spaghetti noodles, uncooked up yer grain chute as penitance for creating such a retarded thread.

""In 1985, when I moved from Hawaii to California, I switched it from Kaju Kenbo to Hawaiian Kempo. I added some things to it, took away some things and started calling it Hawaiian Kempo. I took out the katas and the forms and I threw in more natural fighting techniques and conditioning. Now that’s my style. Like if you see Chuck (Liddell) with the tattoo on his arm, that’s the logo for my school.""

http://www.knucklepit.com/mixed-martial-arts-john_hackleman.htm

Is that the tatoo you were referring to?

Crushing Fist

05-08-2006, 07:13 PM

Hackleman says back in the ‘90s other martial artists began calling their style Hawaiian Kenpo, but he is the only instructor to spell his Hawaiian Kempo with an ‘m’. In Japanese, the letters ‘m’ and ‘n’ have the same symbol, so the art can be spelt either way. John has been spelling his art as Kempo since 1985.

say what?

I guess they aren't too up on japanese...

ma mi mu me mo

na ni nu ne no and 'n'

maybe they were thinking of 'l' and 'r'

David Jamieson

05-08-2006, 07:45 PM

you train for what you are intending to do.

kungfu for the most part has a competitive fighting training regimen. It's called San Shou or San Da if you like.

For showy competitions, they demonstrate forms through the sport fo wu shu.

For in class stuff, they deal with classical pugilism, some up to date, some stuck in antiquity and kept for posterity.

UFC training regimen and many types of Kungfu training regimen simply don't have the same goals in mind.

UFC is specifically geared to getting in a ring and being beaten on, beating on someone else or a mix of both..to a decided finish if a knockout or submission is not obtained by either player.

In Kungfu training, there is focus on total development of a person using the vehicle of not only martial art training, but also the augmentation exercises that get us in touch with who we are and expose our strengths and weaknesses to us in more than just fighting.

There is some similarity, but it ends rather abruptly. there are many who have entered ufc, pride, etc etc etc who come from traditional martial art backgrounds. That background and all that was in it is not washed away when one decides to enter into competitive fighting. It is altered to fit the venue.

Now if someone chooses to disparage either without having experienced both, then they are talking out their ass plain and simple.

the person who has spent all their time in a kwoon and has never done any ufc style training should shut the hell up about it. YOU DO NOT KNOW.

the UFC guy who hasn't spent appropriate time training in classical martial arts should also shut the hell up because YOU DON'T KNOW either.

However, those who have spent enough time with both will, in my experience, invariably find a way to blend them together to get something for themselves that is acceptable on their training path. Comments from these types is valid and generally will be indicative of value in both paths.

for the most part, those that are adamantly against one or the other are almost always speaking from a standpoint of complete ignorance.

just pointing it out.

Jamesbond_007

05-08-2006, 08:34 PM

Seriously guys, I can't believe you are missing the obvious one on this one. The reason CMA doesn't dominate the UFC is because CMAers are not taking Xyience.

Once I started taking Xyience I started to kick everyones butt. Also, I can fly now. :)

PangQuan

05-08-2006, 08:45 PM

a large problem with cma is not cma. it is the students.

take my sifu for example. one day he will decide to train a certain technique in class. for this case we will use a basic 2 man self defense technique. He will spend the time it takes to make sure everyone that is present learns the technique, understands its application, and how to perform it correctly. Once this process is completed, he will likely not return to this technique for possibly even years.

why? its not up to him to make sure you practice what you learn. he gives you the technique, its up to you whether you train it regularly or not. he makes sure you understand it, is there to answer any future questions, but will not baby sit you.

Now if on your own time, before or after class, or at home or in the park. you can get together with your kung fu brothers, and intensively train this drill. everyday if you feel like it for 10 years. then you are a master with this technique. you have put in the time.

or you can do what most people do. only train it that one time. develope a very rough understanding of it and then be done with it. at which point, you have decided to waste your time.

if you suck at fighting, its your fault.

people place too much on the teacher. they cannot work out for you. or put in the hours.

they are a resource. not the skill.

much as one person stated earlier, its more than enough rather than not enough.

there is so much material present you cannot train all of it all the time. you recieve the techniques one at a time, decide what is best for you, keep it and throw out the rest.

thats what forms are. its a catelog so to speak. a library of techniques.

if you go to your "class" and its only 2 hours long, and you do that say 3 days a week. thats 6 hours, out of 168 in the week. if you dont put in the time yourself to correct your shortcommings, thats is entirely on your head.

Sal Canzonieri

05-08-2006, 08:50 PM

It's probably been discussed, but I never really considered it myself. I guess I shouldn't have wasted the space. Anyways, I think the training regime of CMA is the problem. Too much forms work and too little free partner practice and sparring.

That, plus if you change schools you have to do all their forms all over again, which wastes a ton of time.

IMHO CMA is a great time waster and money maker for instructors who can convince students to practice weapons forms for weapons not used in 100 years or more, but that's it.

Umm, it's because most people who teach, not just CMA, but karate, TKD, have never had to defend themselves. I have, I grew in a bad city in the 1960s and had to defend myself everyday to just get to school and back, or go to the store.

Over the past 30 years I have used CMA to defend myself successfully all over the world in sudden situations, and I use what I learned from CMA forms. They worked perfectly every time.

Today, I teach CMA, and I have my students learn a quick short form, such as Wu Bu Quan, and they in one day are indeed able to take each other down from the lessons.

To stop a fight is a concept, that involves a very different process, than figthing, which is essentially 'sport'. There is no reason that CMA shoudl have to work in the ring at these caged fights you see on tv because those are unnatural events, sports, not self defense. CMA forms are self defense.

Fighting boils down to whoever is luckiest wins, because you have to be:
stronger, faster, younger, more fit, etc, etc than your opponent.

Stopping a fight takes understanding and confidence that the CMA works.
1-CMA only works when you use it to stop a fight.
2- You need to understand that all the moves in a CMA form can be done on many levels, such as punches, kicks, joint locks, and takedowns and throws.
3 - And, you need to understand that all CMA moves in forms are simulataneously offense and defense.
4 - And, you need to understand correct body mechanics.

I have seen these 4 things Lacking in almost all Martial Art instruction from any kind of school during the 30 years I have been doing Martial Arts.

It's when I researched these 4 things about CMA over the last 10 years that I have seen how CMA really works and forms have never let me down ever since.

Sparring teaches people to be stupid, because it is an unnatural situation, it is not self defense. You get bad habits from sparring, because we expect the partner to act a certain way. The person on the street will be unpredictable. Hence, only the confidence (with training) that the moves in the forms you learned are both offense and defense at the same time and each move works against any kind of incoming attack, THEN you are successful in self defense. Sparring does not teach self defense

But, free form partner training does wonders, if all aspects of moves from forms are worked with, and the idea that the moves are simulataneously offense and defense is adhered to.

Because, the foundamental thing about CMA is being taught: to use the moves in a form to stop a fight, not to fight against the incoming attacker.
Incoming energy is redirected so that it traps the attacker to defeat themselves.

CMA forms that are taught correctly, with the correct ideas, works exactly like a bull fighter deals with a raging bull.

If you learn to be a bull fighter via CMA you will always be successful in self defense.

mantis108

05-08-2006, 11:48 PM

Education (both civil or martial) was a privilege not a right. One would learn MA either your family can afford the tuition (you've got yourself a teacher) or you are "contracted" (partically sold) to your Sifu; hence, the term master. There was not almost no such a thing as "middle class" learning martial arts for fun (at least not for the working poor) but learning martial arts for vocation.

Compare to Northern American market today this is unimaginable. MA here is one of the many past time activities available for the middle class. This is why we have McDojo and McKwoon all over the place to tailor to the soccer moms who want little Johnny and Jannie to be badysitted while "learning" something. Now many of those kids have grown up and they are now in the MA teaching force. Have these "privileged" kids ever fought for their lives? I will leave that question to you all.

Education ultimately is for improving the quality of life. Now if competition will help you improve your quality of life. Well, by all means more power to you. I guess many of the professional fighters (ie Ali, Graices, Ken Shamrock, et..) are a good examples of that.

As for forms are important to TCMA, well yes and no.

I think someone said that forms are meant for the teachers. I would agree to that. Because forms really do contain a whole lot more information then just fighting techniques. Do you need to know a form to be able to fight? Well, definitely not IMHO. However, if you are looking to fight "in style", then you can't go without the forms. Can TCMA handle martial sports events, I would say it's possible but first it will have to deal with the "delivery system" as MP pointed out. It would take some readjustments but it's not out of the question IMHO.

I believe Bruce Lee wanted to point to the fact that athleticism and the orderly competitive spirit not just any but the phyiscal contact of it was dying in TCMA in general. He also recognized the "delivery system" is FUBAR that's why he proposed to scrap it all and reform. This in my mind is the real "secret" of JKD from an observer point of view.

Personally, I am a firm believer in TCMA values and all but at the same time I am sick and tire of hearing "secret deadly moves" that makes TCMA special. Those moves don't make you a free thinking martial artist but turns you into something like a hunter who carries a rusted shot gun that has never been fired. God knows if that would even fire or back fire on you when you needed it most. Beside, I don't know if it is a blessing walking down the street with the knowledge that any moment (if attacked) you will become a "murderer" because the only option you have is to use some secret deadly moves to maim or kill another person. Now that's a life changing event that I think can be avoided if we learn a better delievery system which can provide more options than to kill, kill, kill. Don't be a slave of secret deadly techniques but be a master of martial arts, my friends.

Mantis108

neilhytholt

05-09-2006, 12:22 AM

I believe Bruce Lee wanted to point to the fact that athleticism and the orderly competitive spirit not just any but the phyiscal contact of it was dying in TCMA in general. He also recognized the "delivery system" is FUBAR that's why he proposed to scrap it all and reform. This in my mind is the real "secret" of JKD from an observer point of view.

Personally, I am a firm believer in TCMA values and all but at the same time I am sick and tire of hearing "secret deadly moves" that makes TCMA special. Those moves don't make you a free thinking martial artist but turns you into something like a hunter who carries a rusted shot gun that has never been fired. God knows if that would even fire or back fire on you when you needed it most. Beside, I don't know if it is a blessing walking down the street with the knowledge that any moment (if attacked) you will become a "murderer" because the only option you have is to use some secret deadly moves to maim or kill another person. Now that's a life changing event that I think can be avoided if we learn a better delievery system which can provide more options than to kill, kill, kill. Don't be a slave of secret deadly techniques but be a master of martial arts, my friends.

Mantis108

This is my question, which is how do you practice TCMA then, if the schools are fubar.

The main problem I have with schools is they require you to train their curriculum, which may or may not be what you want to train. I myself want to train the sparring techniques as taught by my first sifu (now retired), but cannot find any school that will allow me to work on that stuff without learning their curriculum and their forms.

I thought that MMA schools would be the solution but they are not because a) they have a total boxing emphasis (I do not like boxing), and b) they still want me to do stuff their way. (which is boxing and some grappling). I was not taught to fight like a boxer (high stances and literally on my toes).

SevenStar

05-09-2006, 12:38 AM

Royal Dragon

05-09-2006, 01:11 AM

SevenStar

05-09-2006, 01:26 AM

This is my question, which is how do you practice TCMA then, if the schools are fubar.

The main problem I have with schools is they require you to train their curriculum, which may or may not be what you want to train. I myself want to train the sparring techniques as taught by my first sifu (now retired), but cannot find any school that will allow me to work on that stuff without learning their curriculum and their forms.

I thought that MMA schools would be the solution but they are not because a) they have a total boxing emphasis (I do not like boxing), and b) they still want me to do stuff their way. (which is boxing and some grappling). I was not taught to fight like a boxer (high stances and literally on my toes).

you don't have a choice here, man. any place you train will require to learn their art. your best bet is to either start your own study group or find a club that will let you work out, but not actually be part of the class. The problem there is that you still may not have people to spar with.

wind draft

05-09-2006, 01:34 AM

Just for the sake you don't compare it to UFC or MMA, I still think kung fu overemphasis on forms. Recently I realize also that I want to be a better fighter and forms just ain't doing it. I told my Sifu and guess what happened? We did more forms. For some reason people think forms can get you good at fighting.

It seems on here we have a good amount of people who believe that kung fu needs to emphasis more on fighting and two person drills, and more drills.

In our school we do mostly punching air and forms. I'm actually tire of that stuff. I can do that all on my own time. I want to be able to fight. And don't say hang out at MMA gyms. Because I want to fight the kung fu way not kickboxing. Anybody????

SevenStar

05-09-2006, 01:45 AM

neilhytholt

05-09-2006, 01:55 AM

The main problem I have with schools is they require you to train their curriculum, which may or may not be what you want to train. I myself want to train the sparring techniques as taught by my first sifu (now retired), but cannot find any school that will allow me to work on that stuff without learning their curriculum and their forms.

Reply]
Start a High school program where your students attack you first so you get the practice in the drills you want first, and then they work them with each other.

Only by teaching what you know, will you be able to practice it, and get good at it.

In all honesty, this is the only reason i am willing to teach.

That, sir, is the very best idea to come up around here so far. Lots of people to work with, few preconceived notions, and if any of them have outside training in some martial arts or wrestling, so much the better, because then they can launch some decent attacks. Plus, no overhead associated with a school.

Have you ever tried this, though? Do the schools allow sparring? They probably wouldn't want students going home with ouchies. I guess if we dressed everybody up like TKD marshmallow men the injuries should be limited to some bruises and sprained toes, though.

Chief Fox

05-09-2006, 02:01 AM

wind draft, your are in what was my exact same situation.

I think a lot of kung fu teachers maybe really don't know the actual applications of the forms so their answer is to just teach more forms. For those of us who want to go deeper the solutions are few and far between.

The truth is, good kung fu schools do exist. Schools where they focus on using the techniques from the forms in actual combat.

Forms are like a library. All of techniques are there. You can just check out a few techniques and read them. Or you can start at the begining and move through the whole library. Whose going to be the better fighter? They guy who is going through the whole library trying to get a piece of everything, or the guy who chooses to focus on just a few volumes in depth?

Maybe a stupid analogy but the library is too big to be an expert in everything, I for one am choosing to focus.

Royal Dragon

05-09-2006, 02:26 AM

I have seen that too many times my self.

I personally feel you should have one, or two forms that you thourally master, inside and out. Not just in the air mind you. To me mastering is breaking it down into the two man drills, and learning to fight with the techniques the form contains "In Style".

_William_

05-09-2006, 03:11 AM

I am considering switching schools because of the crap attitudes of some of the people in my school, and because I am finding the training methods to be wholly inadequate.

All we do is chi-sao drills... over and over... and this is how the senior students lord over me. Somehow its not okay if I hit them, because I'm a big guy, but they hammer away their shots at me like I'm a dummy? And when I hit them they get all ****y and touchy. And I'm thinking in my head, "God, if you can't take even light contact maybe you guys should take up tiddlywinks or something". For example, one time in chisao I hit someone :p and they just flipped out and started yelling at me. And this was a tap.

And some of the seniors(some... not all) are real **** negative. They want to keep their superiority and feel threatened or something, because I am able to hit them more consistently now? So they slip me little comments when chi-saoing or sparring "No, that won't work in a REAL fight" "Thats too fancy"(When I'm using textbook wing chun) "Too slow, too slow"(How am I NOT supposed to be slow when they discourage contact?)

Sparring is a giant ego exercise at my school. People get their **** emotions into it too much, like if I hit them its a direct affront to their honor or something. Its ****ing unreasonable. And when we spar its virtually noncontact, which KILLS timing.

I've been training there for six years now. Sure, I've picked up some skills. Basics of trapping, jamming, etc. that are the core wing chun syllabus. But to be honest with you guys, I am not sure in my heart if I can FIGHT.

And because the purpose of martial arts is to FIGHT, I feel that my time in the school is redundant. I'm not learning to fight there, I'm just doing cooperative chi sao over and over, where the seniors feed their egos by smacking me all the time while I am trying to hold back.

I am considering joining an MMA gym so I can hone my skills under pressure, and pick up MMA skills as well. But I feel tied to the school I'm at right now, because honestly I consider the sifu and some of the students there to be close friends after several years. But... I'm not learning to fight there. Not sure how to break off , because they tend to take it personally :confused: and I consider them friends.

mantis108

05-09-2006, 03:28 AM

This is my question, which is how do you practice TCMA then, if the schools are fubar.

Bruce Lee was an opinionated individual who believed TCMA's methods (on fighting) are not sound. That's his opinion and he could be right in view of the rise of NHB and MMA events. But IMHO he focused on the negative rather than the positive. I don't know much about other TCMA styles but I do know that Northern Praying Mantis is quite practical when it comes to fight training. It's definitely not dry land swimming.

The main problem I have with schools is they require you to train their curriculum, which may or may not be what you want to train. I myself want to train the sparring techniques as taught by my first sifu (now retired), but cannot find any school that will allow me to work on that stuff without learning their curriculum and their forms.

May be you could list the sparring techniques and/or format from your former teacher so that we can have an idea whether it is possible to spar with other TCMA schools. BTW, I am curious as to what makes you believe that your former teacher's way is the best way for you? It is your opinion and we respect that but then we need to know the basis of this opinion.

I thought that MMA schools would be the solution but they are not because a) they have a total boxing emphasis (I do not like boxing), and b) they still want me to do stuff their way. (which is boxing and some grappling). I was not taught to fight like a boxer (high stances and literally on my toes).

Well.... fighting is figthing. You sure don't need to train MMA which boxing can be a major component of that. But on the street you would have no choice to fight whatever style (just brawling included) or whom you deem okay to fight. Don't you think, it's better to have those experiences or get to know them anyway? Sometimes, people want you to fight their way is that through their experiences they know what's the safe way to protect yourself from getting injured. All those chin tuck, shoulder raise, etc in boxing is not just about their "form and structure". It is also about protecting yourself from getting serious hurt on the receiving end of a powerful counter combo such as cross-hook. Same thing with break falling and rolling properly in case you got thrown.

In my class, I often have people who claim they have experiences in other styles. I will have them do the same warm up routine that we do and I would observe them if they have the fundamentals (ie shadow boxing, breakfalling, etc) down. I would not have them participate in sparring in my club if they fail to reassure me with their abilities and decline to listen to my advice. I don't want to be responsible for silly injuries that can be avoided. I have students that get tossed by hip throws on carpeted concrete floor durring sparring sessions. So far, no serious injury other than wind got knock out and a lot of pain in the ribcage.

Mantis108

neilhytholt

05-09-2006, 03:29 AM

Yeah, you have to find places with non-attitude. Like the last karate school I went to, I was sparring some little dude, and I hit him with about 20% force, and he goes, "That was kindof hard. You don't want to hit the female black belts with that kind of force, or they'll get really p*ssed off." ???

Basically the female black belts were all these relatively older women (35+), who had huge attitudes and 0 fighting skills. But they all made some $$$ off of giving private lessons (the instructor had this pyramid scheme going where any black belt could give privates and they both got a cut), so it was a huge ego thing.

But they did a lot of tournaments, so they were relatively okay with contact, except for the women. In fact the tournaments I got hit quite hard, often, and one time to the point my leg stopped working and I had to quit the match. (Ouch).

If you fight people who get hit and blow up, that's just really bad. Those types of people shouldn't be taking martial arts.

Maybe you should find a school that does a lot of tournaments if you want to get any sparring. Of course sparring isn't entirely like real fighting, but it's closer than form work.

neilhytholt

05-09-2006, 03:45 AM

May be you could list the sparring techniques and/or format from your former teacher so that we can have an idea whether it is possible to spar with other TCMA schools. BTW, I am curious as to what makes you believe that your former teacher's way is the best way for you? It is your opinion and we respect that but then we need to know the basis of this opinion.

The way my former teacher sparred was singly, or with multiples, and you worked whatever techniques you wanted to. His favorite techniques against single fighters were chi-sao and arm wrapping, and sweeps. He usually fought in a side-stance, except against multiples.

But what he taught wasn't limited to that. We used fists, chi-sao, heel hooks, pretty much everything. I did a lot of heel hooks, back kicks and flip kicks because that was an easy way to get people trying to get in or behind me. (Why punch when you don't have to?) He liked to sweep me a lot.

Against multiples he used something like chi-sao but he'd be working 2 people at once. It's kindof hard to explain and I don't really have time to go into that.

However, these techniques do not seem to translate into the boxing world or MMA world. For example, he didn't hold high stances. In boxing they tend to have high stances and their weight kindof forward. This causes their center of gravity to be very high, leaving them vulnerable to sweeps, takedowns and leg attacks.

When I went to the MMA class they kept trying to make me do boxing. I tried to explain to them why I did not want to do boxing. I sparred with some of their people and they didn't know what to do because my face wasn't out in front. They'd come in and I'd kick them in the legs or I'd do a back kick to their stomach, or I'd wrap them up and punch them. Their MMA folks would try to shoot and I'd go lower in my stance and they couldn't really do anything (The first guy I grabbed his head and kneed about 3/4 speed and stopped about an inch from his nose, really freaked him out).

Basically, what they do is just some useless stuff IMHO ...

neilhytholt

05-09-2006, 03:49 AM

Oh, but I should add that even though the MMA folks do what is IMHO useless stuff, obviously it is more useful than 90+% of the schools out there, who seem to not train any fighting at all.

I'm especially tired of going to 'martial arts' schools that teach 'tai chi', but absolutely no fighting aspects of it. If they aren't teaching fighting they shouldn't list themselves as 'martial arts'.

Knifefighter

05-09-2006, 06:24 AM

Could it be because of the emphasis on forms, rather than techniques? Could it be that the very premise of CMA is flawed?

Think about it. Go from one boxing gym to another, how long does it take you to work out with another person? About 2 seconds, right? Go from one BJJ school to another, how long does it take you to roll with somebody? Your first day, right? Go to a Muay Thai school or kickboxing school, how long until you're working techniques with a partner? First day, right? If not the first day, then shortly thereafter.

How many forms do you have to learn for any of these? None. Except maybe Muay Thai if it's totally traditional, but not the way it's taught in kickboxing schools.

Perhaps the very premise of CMA being based upon forms is faulty if you consider that obviously it doesn't produce good fighters.

CMA based on forms = bad fighters
CMA based on same premise as live combative systems = good fighters.

yeah plus no pressure points in ufc and no fish hooking and individual finger or toe locks. there goes a good arsenal of moves

Same for all the fighters who compete in MMA. They can’t use those moves either. If your style is dependent on those kinds of moves, it is severely lacking.
CMA that relies on pressure points, fish hooks and small joint manipulations = bad fightrs.

plus this had been discussed many times. also is it me or is ufc tailored more towards jj and those arts.

No it is not. If anything it is tailored to the standup and striking arts. Fighters are forced to stand up if there is not sufficient action on the ground.

IMHO CMA is a great time waster and money maker for instructors who can convince students to practice weapons forms for weapons not used in 100 years or more, but that's it.
BINGO!

Kung Fu origianlly looked like MMA,

No it didn’t. If it did, it would have significantly more grappling and groundfighting.

I'm really getting tired of all martial arts being measured by their effectiveness in the UFC. Since when did the UFC become the be-all in martial arts?

UFC and other MMA venues are good laboratories and testing grounds.

I study 7 star praying mantis. There are A LOT of groin strikes, throat attacks and eye pokes.

As there are in the street version of BJJ, but this has never stopped these fighters from stepping into the competitive arena.
Relying on roin strikes, throat attacks and eye pokes = bad fighters.

All teachers want to make a living. If you teach your students the real stuff (tradition way of training), you will unlikely to have a student left in your class after first day's training
If this were true, boxing, Muay Thai, Sambo and BJJ schools would have not students either.

I would argue that this was not the original premise, but was pushed in that direction by government pressure to make something politcally dangerous flowery

How are martial arts politically dangerous?

BJJ, Judo, Wrestling, etc, tend to attract a certain subset of people that WANT to compete.

True to some extent. But these arts also push the competitive factor. Each of these combative approaches believe that competing makes one significantly better and this approach is engrained in each of these disciplines. Judo goes so far as to base belt promotions on competitions. Many people have no intention to compete when they start, but end up competing because it is part of the culture.

take my sifu for example. one day he will decide to train a certain technique in class. for this case we will use a basic 2 man self defense technique. He will spend the time it takes to make sure everyone that is present learns the technique, understands its application, and how to perform it correctly. Once this process is completed, he will likely not return to this technique for possibly even years.

This is a very flawed method of teaching. Learning techniques well requires many sessions of having the same techniques taught, reviewed and corrected. This is the whole idea of studying with an instructor. It is up to the instructor to develop lesson plans to ensure that the technique is practiced over and over again. That is how learning occurs.

or you can do what most people do. only train it that one time. develope a very rough understanding of it and then be done with it. at which point, you have decided to waste your time.

I would say the instructor is wasting your time if he is only showing one technique a single time.

However, if you are looking to fight "in style", then you can't go without the forms.

Fighting “in style”??? A good fighter uses what works, not what is “in his style”.
Focusing on fighting "in style" = bad fighters.

Because I want to fight the kung fu way not kickboxing.

Kickboxing is how striking with hands and feet looks in fighting. Just like grappling looks like wrestling, Judo, and BJJ in fighting.

Their MMA folks would try to shoot and I'd go lower in my stance and they couldn't really do anything (The first guy I grabbed his head and kneed about 3/4 speed and stopped about an inch from his nose, really freaked him out).

Most MMA fighters are used to getting kneed. That's probably why he freaked... he couldn't understand why you would pull the knee.

neilhytholt

05-09-2006, 06:32 AM

Most MMA fighters are used to getting kneed. That's probably why he freaked... he couldn't understand why you would pull the knee.

And here I thought it was because he thought he was going to get a straight shot right into the face ... ******!

David Jamieson

05-09-2006, 06:34 AM

_william_

your story is a sad one that is echoed in many discussion forums.

suck in a big breath in and go look elsewhere if you are stuck in an ego farm.

It's one thing to deal with when it's your peers, but when your instructors and teachers are full of it still, then you can guarantee yourself that you're not going to learn much from them. they will always deny you progress and always be fluffing their own chests.

Knifefighter

05-09-2006, 06:38 PM

And here I thought it was because he thought he was going to get a straight shot right into the face ... ******!

Nah... MMA fighters are used to getting kneed... happens all the time.

FatherDog

05-09-2006, 06:54 PM

The reasons why CMA doesn't win the UFC
3. How many people are winning to train 7 hours a day inorder to win a tournament? Not many!

Nobody who fights in the UFC trains 7 hours a day. I've trained at Team Quest, my coach has trained with Militech and Jeremy Horn. They're all top level fighters, and they train between 10 and 20 hours a week, tops.

FatherDog

05-09-2006, 06:56 PM

Their MMA folks would try to shoot and I'd go lower in my stance and they couldn't really do anything

You're full of ****.

PangQuan

05-09-2006, 07:27 PM

This is a very flawed method of teaching. Learning techniques well requires many sessions of having the same techniques taught, reviewed and corrected. This is the whole idea of studying with an instructor. It is up to the instructor to develop lesson plans to ensure that the technique is practiced over and over again. That is how learning occurs.

this is not to say how he teaches every technique. this is to display that there are so many techniques available in the chinese martial arts, you cannot dedicated serious time to drilling every single one with your students every day. there is not enough time in the day for such activity.

more what i was trying to get across is that often he will pull at technique out that is not part of our regularly repeated drills, a special technique (special in the sense that it is not part of our regularly drilled material)

he will give us these moves and explain them in detail. spending often and entire class so everyone gets a good feel and understanding.

From here its back to regularly drilled material.

but at the same time he has given everyone the taste of a drill that we can continue on our own if we wish to, but it is a drill that is not going to be part of his regularly taught material.

mantis108

05-09-2006, 09:19 PM

The way my former teacher sparred was singly, or with multiples, and you worked whatever techniques you wanted to. His favorite techniques against single fighters were chi-sao and arm wrapping, and sweeps. He usually fought in a side-stance, except against multiples.

But what he taught wasn't limited to that. We used fists, chi-sao, heel hooks, pretty much everything. I did a lot of heel hooks, back kicks and flip kicks because that was an easy way to get people trying to get in or behind me. (Why punch when you don't have to?) He liked to sweep me a lot.

I can see why you feel uncomfortable going against the MMA trained individuals. I am sure your former teacher and yourself are skilled. But sorry to say this seems to me is more inline with continuous point sparring with some degree of takedown allowed. From what you described here, I believe there is a serious lack there of capitalizing of the clinch range/phase (and we are not even talking about the ground game). It also seems to me that you are fixated on an approach of fighting, strategy and tactic. In a polite setting, you might do very well indeed. Personally, I would believe that a rude awakening is in the corner somewhere. I don't mean this to be a criticism of what you do. I meant this as a friendly advice. The skill that you have may be giving you a false sense of security. It's a hurdle that we as martial artists will face at least once if not more on our journey. In my mind, you have your teacher's image to cut down first (your cup is full because of that). That's a battle that you will have to deal with. I am just calling it as I see your posts developed. Please ignor my advice if you fill it's irrelevant.

Against multiples he used something like chi-sao but he'd be working 2 people at once. It's kindof hard to explain and I don't really have time to go into that.

No comment.

However, these techniques do not seem to translate into the boxing world or MMA world. For example, he didn't hold high stances. In boxing they tend to have high stances and their weight kindof forward. This causes their center of gravity to be very high, leaving them vulnerable to sweeps, takedowns and leg attacks.

Boxing in ring boxing format is somewhat different from MMA/UFC or street boxing (dirty boxing). The latter knows how to deal with the shoot and the clinch game. There's even joint attacks in street boxing. It would be wise to take a deeper look into it. Footwork in boxing is second to non - float like a butterfly and sting like a bee. That means they can explore your blindspots more effeciently and easily.

When I went to the MMA class they kept trying to make me do boxing. I tried to explain to them why I did not want to do boxing. I sparred with some of their people and they didn't know what to do because my face wasn't out in front. They'd come in and I'd kick them in the legs or I'd do a back kick to their stomach, or I'd wrap them up and punch them. Their MMA folks would try to shoot and I'd go lower in my stance and they couldn't really do anything (The first guy I grabbed his head and kneed about 3/4 speed and stopped about an inch from his nose, really freaked him out).

Basically, what they do is just some useless stuff IMHO ...

Please refer to Father Dog's last post. I am not sure what kind of MMA school you have encountered and what kind of fighter (may be someone new to that gym like yourself?) they put you up against. Either the gym coaching is seriously flawed, or it is the fighter that suck big time. But then to your credit it might just be that you have some skill. If that float your boat, well more power to you.

Anyway, I would appologize to you first if my comments offended you. I am by no means critisizing. Good luck in your search.

Mantis108

Golden Arms

05-09-2006, 10:04 PM

The more I read neilhytholt's stuff, the more I wonder: Is he a troll or just hardheaded? Why the hell were you even going to a school with blackbelt women doing a pyramid scheme. The fact that you couldnt figure out that school sucked before you joined speaks volumes more than your constant *****ing. Either start your own private teaching/public school, or go to someone elses and learn. Either way, stop *****ing about how everything everyone does is wrong and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Any good school, if asked about applications, will just ask you to attack and be able to perform several for the same move on you, and not from some prearranged attack either.

On a seperate note, the state of martial arts in the world today makes me sick. The only thing worse than the MMA guys being right about 70% of the schools out there, is that the 30% that are good have to deal with guys like this, as well as people coming in looking for pretty much everything BUT fighting. Even the art portion of "martial art" is a joke in most cases. It is an art in that you are taking the skillset to a high level, not in that it should look pleasing to the eye in form performance. The is the same kind of crap that f'd the samurai culture up once the Japanese stopped fighting. Suddenly you had all these samurai around, many of which hadnt even fought, practicing a bunch of arts and idealizing things, all the while losing the lifeblood of their skillset.

If you want to get good, train. Dont talk about it, dont try to find ways other people are doing it, and critique them, find someone that does it and work under them, learn how to work hard.

neilhytholt

05-09-2006, 10:06 PM

The more I read neilhytholt's stuff, the more I wonder: Is he a troll or just hardheaded? Why the hell were you even going to a school with blackbelt women doing a pyramid scheme.

Golden arms. Two words for you ... bugger off.

The reason I went to this school was because it was the only school in town that had sparring. It was a small town, and I wanted to do sparring.

Green Cloud

05-11-2006, 06:05 AM

jethro

05-11-2006, 06:20 AM

but I wish so badly I could watch ufc all day long, instead of like 1 fight a week when i am on break at work. The last one I saw was the iceman against this REALLY tough kid from omaha. But he got beat in the fourth. So seriously, I wish I could watch it more, and btw, how many rounds do they go, I thought it was 3, but maybe it's 5? Also btw, what does "OT" mean?

Sincerely
the friendly troll

ShaolinTiger00

05-11-2006, 07:42 AM

kungfu for the most part has a competitive fighting training regimen. It's called San Shou or San Da if you like.

I'd just like to take this time to point out something that San Shou Guru ( A national champion and world competitor) said last week:

Traditional moves = you getting your ass kicked. Theory goes out the window when you are getting punched in the grill before you know what is happening.

My advice, don’t try to use traditional moves to overcome him, learn his moves. Then after about 5 months of boxing basics start reintroducing your Hung gar or whatever. If you go in with the mindset of “I will use pather crossing fist to his jaw as he throws his jab then follow with phoenix press punch to his exposed flank” your teeth are going to come out like Chicklets.

Lets just say if you do not take my advice I REALLY hope you are in one of my students divisions one day at a Sanda event because it will be one less opponent to really worry about. I have never, in more than 2000 matches, have I seen a fighter be successful using traditional techniques against any modern style fighter.

The truth is that fighters from good teams win sanshou events. TCMA guys who step up usually get moved down in the first round.

neilhytholt

05-11-2006, 08:51 AM

Lets just say if you do not take my advice I REALLY hope you are in one of my students divisions one day at a Sanda event because it will be one less opponent to really worry about. I have never, in more than 2000 matches, have I seen a fighter be successful using traditional techniques against any modern style fighter.
[/I]

The truth is that fighters from good teams win sanshou events. TCMA guys who step up usually get moved down in the first round.

That pretty much mirrors my experience in fighting boxers. You can train for years and win karate tournaments and still get your ass kicked by a boxer if you fight like a sparring tournament.

neilhytholt

05-11-2006, 08:56 AM

I was just curious neil, How many CMA have you seen in the UFC that have lost. Is it a small percentage or a large percent. Personaly I have not yet to see a Kung Fu guy in the UFC except for Cung le. Than again I don't watch that much TV.

greencloud.net

greencloud.com

Actually I haven't seen any CMA guys since the first ones, I think. I don't think they even really compete anymore. It seems to be primarily kickboxing, boxing, BJJ, grappling, etc.

Are you implying that they're just shut out or something? That's possible. I don't know. I just assumed that they got so badly beaten in the first onex that they didn't even enter anymore.

neilhytholt

05-11-2006, 09:10 AM

In my mind, you have your teacher's image to cut down first (your cup is full because of that). That's a battle that you will have to deal with. I am just calling it as I see your posts developed. Please ignor my advice if you fill it's irrelevant.

..

Boxing in ring boxing format is somewhat different from MMA/UFC or street boxing (dirty boxing). The latter knows how to deal with the shoot and the clinch game. There's even joint attacks in street boxing. It would be wise to take a deeper look into it. Footwork in boxing is second to non - float like a butterfly and sting like a bee. That means they can explore your blindspots more effeciently and easily.

...

Please refer to Father Dog's last post. I am not sure what kind of MMA school you have encountered and what kind of fighter (may be someone new to that gym like yourself?) they put you up against. Either the gym coaching is seriously flawed, or it is the fighter that suck big time. But then to your credit it might just be that you have some skill. If that float your boat, well more power to you.

Anyway, I would appologize to you first if my comments offended you. I am by no means critisizing. Good luck in your search.

Mantis108

I don't think I'm a bad fighter, but I don't think I'm a great fighter, either. Believe me, after I left my first sifu, I ran into a studio where the sifu liked to bring in outside people, any outside people that people wanted to, to spar on sparring night. We had everybody from top level TKD guys to boxers to bar brawlers.

And I can tell you that the first time I fought a boxer I got my ass handed to me, that's for sure. They moved much faster than I expected and hit really hard.

But I found that it was capable of countering them using basic taiji. Yes, most people on here won't believe that, I am sure, but that was my experience.

And yes, the people I fought at this place weren't that great, at all. I've been to places that train UFC and Pride fighters and I can tell you, I'm nowhere near, nothing at all their level of conditioning and skill. They train almost every day. I just don't have the time for that.

Anyways, I hope it doesn't sound like I'm floating my boat, because I know that I inherently suck. Because I don't do enough training. :) I mean, I got my ass handed to me by a JKD guy the other day who moved faster than anybody I've ever met. But I don't think he would be able to stand up against the UFC guys because he's not at their level of conditioning.

SifuAbel

05-11-2006, 10:40 AM

Oh lord, here we go again. :rolleyes:

Lets have the abridged version, shall we? Without all the assumtions made here, the bottom line still stands that one must fight with contact and with various styles of opponenets. Putting the blame on anything else is pure hyperbole. A jab, a cross, and a boxers stance are as traditional as it gets. I learned that stuff in the first 6 months. It is NOT traditional NOT to fight. If you have to think about your moves you are 5 seconds behind the guy that doesn't. Fighting is abstract. Its an abstaction built on the concrete of form(which is not to be confused with sets). Ma bo is awesome. And if you suck at it, too bad for you. :p

ST , you've fought 2000 matches?

No, there hasn't been a large CMA showing in the UFC etc EVER. If you told me 1000 CMA players lost consistantly over 10 years then you'd have a statistic. Also, few, if none, in 10 years has been undefeated in UFC. The guy that wins today will lose tomorrow and win the next day. So winning doesn't really matter either.

Is the majority of CMA in the US ricebaged into oblivion? I can't say no. Many of whom I see doing so called TCMA don't have "it".

Are there people that have had a good showing ? Yes, onasis come to mind.

Are there a few gems that still fight? Yes, there are some. More than you'd think. But overshadowed by those who suck.

David Jamieson

05-11-2006, 02:53 PM

hung-le

05-11-2006, 04:03 PM

Whoa.... this is some old crap that’s been played out. i.e. "Why CMA Doesn't Win in the UFC....... BALLS!!!!! Usually its floated by somebody with a macho handle like "Choke U out" or "U been Taped" I've always been partial myself to "Stick Fighter" or " Pig sticker " and Gun U down"

Sometimes they get clever with Japanese judo terms like "juji Gatame"

All posting with a bent on lording over any martial art that doesn't focus on grappling............

Question: Ever wonder why they frequent a Chinese news group like this and not a MMA or Jujitsu news group?

Answer: Because they are full of BS...that's why!

nice try neilhytholt!

Now they say the UFC favors the stand up game .....BALLS!!!!!!!!!!! yet they fall to mention that many get ko'ed before they get a chance to take it to the ground...or the guy gets to his feet after being took down then Ko's his opponent. they fall to metion that in UFC and Pride its now about fifty-fifty (submission to Ko)

MMA displays some serious traditional Quan Shu techniques.
Chuck Liddell has Ko'ed a couple of guys with one of my favorite punches "Shangbu guo shou zaichui" ( Step up wrap hand and plant fist)

Are not many knockouts scored by repeated reverse punches? CMA?

In fact I would say MMA are starting to look more and more like traditional martial art contests. Gone is the BS where the guy got up on his toes and danced trying to kick box (that crap was nothing but point fighting...Last time I checked Shaolin Monks didn't get up on thier toes and kick box. Usually that crap wouldn't even work in a bar fight against a thug...let alone someone highly skilled in free style Jujitsu....... Its the reason why you don't see bouncing and weaving on the toes in traditional forms.....

Put some knee high boots, some old style tights and trunks with a sash around his midrift and Tim Sylvia with his "on guard stance" mimics an old style bare knuckle fighter... talk about traditional!

Those first UFC events where filled with traditional guys who never had any experience with guys outside their respected styles..(they where rank armatures compared to all those Jujitsu and free style wrestlers ) that was obvious to anyone who ever had been in a few real fights)

The only thing wrong thing with CMA is the same thing wrong with most martial arts.....They usually don't train/spar against other respected styles... (I'm not talking cross training ....I'm talking about ...Taking your style and cross training IT against other styles...finding out what works....in a free style format)
If your name is "Pig Sticker" or "Juji Gatame" or whatever ...don't hand no crap... save it.........because I've trained at some pretty affluent Jujitsu/Judo and Sambo schools and have pulled off (dare I say it?) CMA techniques

I just can't believe this post made it to five pages......Asinine! pure 100%

SevenStar

05-11-2006, 08:59 PM

I was just curious neil, How many CMA have you seen in the UFC that have lost. Is it a small percentage or a large percent. Personaly I have not yet to see a Kung Fu guy in the UFC except for Cung le. Than again I don't watch that much TV.

greencloud.net

greencloud.com

I posted their results from the first 8 UFCs in another thread - you commented on that thread. There have been other losses since, naturally. On average, it would seem that they lose more than win. someone posted a clip here a few months back of a kung fu guy that was beaten by a wrestler... I think he was a student of huangkaivun - a guy who used to post here.

jethro

05-11-2006, 09:39 PM

SifuAbel

05-11-2006, 09:55 PM

I now pass the mantle to hung-le. Go get um kid. :D

hung-le

05-11-2006, 10:26 PM

what, no gay jokes about the ufc this time. Why are you coming on here talking about judo and crap like that. It is superior to kung fu , but still depends on the practicioner. I will guarantee you that you can use your jujitsu style on me and I will leave you inconscious, and I won't even be usin kung fu on you . So go and give somebody else a history lesson on judo cause it may surprise you, btu people on here actually know what that is:eek:

Thanks jethro....

You just proved the point I made in the above thread ..Again....Thanks

If you believe judo is so superior to kung fu ....."what the hell are you posting here for?"

there can be only two reasons

A) are you trolling ...and puffing up your Microsoft muscles....trying to stroke your ego.....?

B) scared to hang with people who know MMA etc....on a news groups actually centered around MMA.....................???

Am I to believe you like posting here with people you have nothing incommon with?

Other than these two reasons, if a person is not into CMA I can't see why somone would post here...

yet you do///and others of your ilk....

I see this time and time again......Captain "joke u Out" lords over CMA news groups and if he doesn't get the internet respect he thinks he got coming

(because he reads the latest Black Belt mag and watches the UFC...) then....then Its challenge time..."He States..."I'll bust you up! where? and when?...etc etc...etc....what a laugh..

what's even more predictable is the next time I read this thread your spedo buddies will come to your rescue...Guys like "pig sticker", "Gun U down" "Purple helmet choke out" etc...etc...will chime in....what hoot....

Who is really trolling?

Me? who digs CMA

Or you and your spedo butt buddies?

(gheeze and you wonder why I make fun of the UFC.......Maybe to get under you skin....Duh.......Duh.....DUH

I love this.." I will guarantee you that you can use your jujitsu style on me and I will leave you inconscious, and I won't even be usin kung fu on you ."

Ohhhhh! that's tuff..... I think my typing hand is shivering....I"m scared I guess your one bad mother......Huh....LOL get real

PangQuan

05-11-2006, 10:42 PM

i never understood how someone could post a remark on the internet as to how they would beat someone else from the internet in a fight.

how can you possibly know if you dont even know who you are talking to?

i have always found claims like that validate that the one placing claim does not really know what they are talking about, to speak as fact through what is obviosly ignorance shows unfathomable idiocy.

its reeeediculous

but it never stops, one guy leaves, another takes his place.

ah, to know the true motivation for such things would be a great insight...

Green Cloud

05-11-2006, 10:50 PM

I posted their results from the first 8 UFCs in another thread - you commented on that thread. There have been other losses since, naturally. On average, it would seem that they lose more than win. someone posted a clip here a few months back of a kung fu guy that was beaten by a wrestler... I think he was a student of huangkaivun - a guy who used to post here.

The guy that fought the wrestler, was that a ufc thing or was it the vid with the guy that looked like a tooth pik dressed in the black bruce lee garb with white frog buttons. In that vid the wrestler broke his arm. Just wondering wich vid it was.

jethro

05-11-2006, 11:45 PM

hung-le

05-12-2006, 12:59 AM

thanks for letting me know that you don't actually look through and read the threads on this site, you just post. Stay with your linear system of learnign styles and I will stay here and hope to learn as much as I can. But make sure that you post a challenge on here some time so I can see up close by you of why I should discontinue my interest in this and switch over to the dark side:D

I would write more but there is some trolling to get done:p

What a joke! You just got done slamming kung fu...what do you hope to learn here?

But make sure that you post a challenge on here some time so I can see up close by you of why I should discontinue my interest in this and switch over to the dark side:D

Still trying to bully me by calling me out on the internet? dude!....Does it look like its working?

Why not go hang somewhere oh...like say like a MMA site...after all, that is be all to end all with you...isn't it? Or do you get a siffy trying to lord over a kung fu news group with that "UFC is so much better crap"

I'll repeat

Other than the two reasons I posted above I can't understand why you and others of your ilk.... post here....

hung-le

05-12-2006, 01:07 AM

Ps

I'm still waiting for your friends with names like "grappler" "Wrestle U" "pit Fighter" "Cage fighter" "Knife U too" "Gun U down" "Dagger" lets not forget juji Gatame....and other jujitsu handles ......etc...etc...to chime in and pile on........

Seems you UFC/MMA internet "LORDS" run in packs on this site.......................

jethro

05-12-2006, 02:07 AM

there is no reason we can't be friendly about this. i by no means ripped kung fu, I know that judo is a superior style, but i am looking to train my body and not be competitve. I hope to learn many styles and not just one. I hope that I will get far enough to where judo can be on my list. But you saying that challenging you isn't working, how is that? I have been looking for somebody for over 3 months now that I can have a good argument onthe internet with or just an argument in general. I will be here all night posting. I may even pick up a couple of hours just so I can get in as many resonses as I can. But sersiously, if you are evr around here and me around there, I would seriously like to see your skills. But nice to know I just have to put that on there, so youcan get scared I guess.

PangQuan

05-12-2006, 02:18 AM

I know that judo is a superior style

LMAO!

with a statement like that, its obvious your an idiot.

neilhytholt

05-12-2006, 02:35 AM

LMAO!

with a statement like that, its obvious your an idiot.

Well he does kindof have a point. The original system of judo which is rarely taught anymore consisted of grappling, the basis of BJJ, and striking.

Basically modern MMA which appears to be necessary in the ring.

jethro

05-12-2006, 03:02 AM

I hope i am not offending anyone, but I know that there are plenty out there saying yeah huh sure, yaeh right... I have heard it from many martial arts master(movie ones) that judo cannot be countered effectively enough by kung fu. I am going at this with an open mind and will certainly be giving comments on what I learn, but I still no way in hell am saying that just judo is better. Unless you find out quick enough that it is the style for you and literally devoted your life to it. You could become tougher than anybody I guess. But learning many styles is the way to go, though now it just seems like I am just repeating things that were already said here. But I have believed this my whole life and will change my mind when it has been proven to me that if you just study judo or jujitsu, you will be unstoppable. No freaking way I will ever believe that. Train bob sapp in mantis for 10 years or so and give him a teacher that knows how to poke him, he will cry and become better for it, and then mantis will be known as the best style I guess. Too much to say about this so I will wait till I get ripped on more. :p

But seriosly when a dude comes at you and is gonna grab you and throw you the eff around, what are you gonna do, you will still fight him, right? Well you are gonna at least need to get him off of you before you will have a chance. If you both know judo that is great, it could be a good fight. But say the other person knows kung fu and also knows a lot of grappling, the just judo guy like chun-li is screwed. Fights come down to survival more than styles, but the training you have received and your inner qi will most likely decide who wins. When you get hit unexpectadley, the more you have trained, the faster you will be likely to recover.

I know, I said I would stop, alright:p

Pork Chop

05-12-2006, 07:47 AM

Thanks jethro....

what's even more predictable is the next time I read this thread your spedo buddies will come to your rescue...Guys like "pig sticker"....

:eek:
I'll have you know that I have not worn speedos since i left swimteam... well okay, i did wear it a couple times on laundary day, but only as an underwear replacement!

Thai shorts are much cooler than mma shorts, but San Da shorts are teh r0xx0rz.

PangQuan

05-12-2006, 11:02 PM

The ultimate "styles" are now lost to humanity. Raw instinct combined with experience is in my opinion is the best "style"

Picture this.

A woodsman, late twenties, early thirties. Spent his entire life, hunting, tracking, trapping and surviving.

The woodsman has developed a superior physical body, due to his harsh life. Now the woodsman has been drafted into a war. The woodsman uses sword, axe, hand, tooth and claw, to defend himself and defeat his enemy on the battle field.

through hard years of many military campaigns the woodsman has been trained on the field of battle. he has killed counless men, whilst in the midst of locked melee combat. he has survived numerous wounds, some near fatal.

now this man is a hardened warrior, with near unmatched skills through years of actual experience.

His natural primal instinct is still in tact through his years as a woodsman, being as near to animal as man gets. with this instinct combined with his years of martial training, and combat has forged him into a true warrior.

Now, today, we have martial artists, who play at such things, and practice with sparring and forms. and get into the occasional real fight. But chances are rare anyone will every gain 1/10 of the skill the woodsman/warrior has gained.

There is no superior style. All combat effectiveness is wholey dependent on actual life experience.

So, you can take a man who has never studied martial arts but has 100+ actual fights under his belt. He will likey defeat most who have studied martial arts for years.

to simply say karate, judo, kung fu, etc. is superior is silly. it depends ONCE AGAIN, on the persons with whom are involved.

there are no superior styles, just superior training methods and experiences.

granted there are styles that are deluted and weak, im not taking those into consideration, the only styles need be considered in such debate will be those proven effective in past or modern times through trial and error. Life and death.

Today the closest men get to life and death is KO/submission, or not KO/submission. unless you live in a harsh invironment and actually DO defend your life regularly.

All the training in the world amounts to very little compared to actual deadly combat experience.

jethro

05-13-2006, 02:21 AM

great point, you have to be defeated and stomped on before you can become good .

Green Cloud

05-13-2006, 04:42 PM

Hey Pang, I was just wondering did the woodsman live happily ever after.;) I think what all you guys need to ask your selves is, Do you guys have the desire to spend your life to become the Ultimate fighting champion. Or do you have a real job or real goals like colledge or being succesful making money and what not.

I would venture to say that most of you just like obssesing over these issues. The thing is CMA offers a person a way to develop and enhance ordinary skills like your intelect, balance, speed, power and grace.

For most of you kung fu guys if you train hard you will have the edge if you are ever attacked in the street.

Now if you decide to become ultimate fighter than you have to train and cross train and practice for that specific venue. We have seen that there is not one specific style that works in these venues. I have also seen guys that stick to there game plan win. If you are a stand up fighter train to knock people out, if you are a grapler train to choke guys out and you will win.

greencloud.net

ShaolinTiger00

05-13-2006, 06:23 PM

The thing is CMA offers a person a way to develop and enhance ordinary skills like your intelect, balance, speed, power and grace.

So does Ballet. :rolleyes: Furthermore so does MMA. CMA is not unique at all in developing any of those skills.

We have seen that there is not one specific style that works in these venues. I have also seen guys that stick to there game plan win. If you are a stand up fighter train to knock people out, if you are a grapler train to choke guys out and you will win.

Incorrect. The "style" that wins most often is the fighter who is the most well rounded fighter who can IMPOSE his gameplan. To be a standup fighter you have to be able to be a good grappler.

Merryprankster

05-13-2006, 07:14 PM

Training can't fix being a pus$y

Green Cloud

05-13-2006, 07:54 PM

St, Incorect about what, In order to be a good stand up fighter you have to be a good grapler??? And what's wrong with ballet??? Is it your intention to put down things that you can't do. Like I said Kung Fu requires Intelect and an apreciation for Art. Fighting is fighting of course you got to be well rounded but what does that have to do with kung fu?? Are you trying to say that knowing CMA along with an understanding of styles won't work???

All I got to say is No Da dummy.:rolleyes:

greencloud.com

Green Cloud

05-13-2006, 08:03 PM

Mp, I agree it doesn't matter what you know if youre afraid of your own shadow

Merryprankster

05-13-2006, 08:06 PM

I don't know that ST00 was trying to be a jerk, I think he was trying to be highly specific, making a distinction between "sticking to a gameplan," and "being able to impose that gameplan."

Knifefighter

05-14-2006, 02:38 AM

To stop a fight is a concept, that involves a very different process, than figthing, which is essentially 'sport'.

And what, exactly is "stopping a fight"?

Knifefighter

05-14-2006, 02:42 AM

Now they say the UFC favors the stand up game.
Of course today's MMA shows favor striking. That is what the majority of fans want to see. MMA is now a sport and plays to the fans who are mostly interested in the standup portion of the fights. The majority of today's MMA fans are not very well versed about the ground/grappling portion of fighting and find it to be boring.

Ever see two MMA fighters have to stop and restart into a grappling situation? Of course you don't, but you will often see the opposite happen.

ShaolinTiger00

05-14-2006, 03:46 AM

Is it your intention to put down things that you can't do. Like I said Kung Fu requires Intelect and an apreciation for Art.

The irony being you misspelled intellect and appreciation.:p

And what specifically about kung fu requires these things? And what prohibits MMA fighters from obtaining them? ex. -I'm a registered architect with enjoys historic preservation. I've got both intellect and art appreciation. I also see the beauty and strategy of being an intelligent fighter who uses skill (and science) to overpower brawn.

Despite your attempt to dumb down MMA, there is a very beautiful and intelligent core to it.

btw: I studied tcma for 9 years under 2 highly respected sifus. I am not ignorant about cma.

jethro

05-14-2006, 04:02 AM

Training can't fix being a pus$y

but pucies can still become men, though it is rare.

Green Cloud

05-14-2006, 05:12 AM

ST, the statement you made was that you have to be a good grapler to be a good stand up fighter. Everything else you mention comes from experience and good training. So I still don't understand your point and then a mention about ballet or something.

Once again fighting is fighting and it takes practice and good training. Regardless of what style you do. It's the macho bull**** about fighting that I can't stand. Like I said in the past I have several systems under my belt. It's my preference to make my home in CMA because it's harder to learn and it takes longer to master that makes it all that much challenging. After learning CMA everything else seems like a peace of cake.

I can understand how young testosterone filled guys wanna roll around all day, but lets see ya roll around like that when youre in your 40's. Youre just going to need something more sophisticated.

By the way ST what made you study CMA for so long?? Did ya have bad experience or something??? Is that why your a hater??? None the less your on this forum trying to prove what???

greencloud.net

greencloud.com

neilhytholt

05-14-2006, 05:35 AM

If I could interject here, it seems like most of the people on here that are pro-MMA or that style of training have done CMA.

It seems what most of the pro-MMA people are saying, is that the training regimen of CMA is not realistic for fighting, judging by the success in the ring.

That there is too little actual contact, or their classes don't have enough sparring, or like I was saying, that every teacher seems to require a ton of forms and don't let you spar with what you have without learning their techniques.

It seems what most pro-CMA people are saying, is that the venue and techniques of MMA fighting is too simplistic, and doesn't allow them to use their techniques.

That the techniques of MMA fighting are boring, the training isn't interesting, they want something more complex, that they aren't allowed to use their deadly techniques, etc.

OKAY ... so let me break this down a little into the arguments.

MMA
Plenty of live training.
Plenty of live sparring.
Plenty of live fighting.
Disallows deadly techniques.
Low on forms and katas.

CMA
Less live training.
Less live sparring (according to CMA folks they cannot 'spar' their techniques realistically).
Less live fighting (according to CMA folks they would hurt their opponent).
Doesn't limit techniques.
High on forms and katas.

So I don't know what everybody's goal is for training MMA or CMA. MMA folks some might want to become paid fighters, right? CMA folks some might want to become paid teachers, or learn some culture, right?

But let's limit the question to just fighting.

How confident do you really feel, MMA folks, that you could use your techniques well against live opponents on the street? That they are battle-tested?

How confident CMA folks really feel, that you could use your techniques well against live opponents on the street? That they are battle-tested?

FatherDog

05-14-2006, 07:33 AM

ST, the statement you made was that you have to be a good grapler to be a good stand up fighter.

And he's right. If you're not a good grappler, anyone who is will take you down and keep you down - you can't be a good standup fighter if you can't keep yourself standing.

I can understand how young testosterone filled guys wanna roll around all day, but lets see ya roll around like that when youre in your 40's. Youre just going to need something more sophisticated.

Many people in my gym are in their late 30's. The 40 and up division in NAGA and Grappler's Quest regularly has many competitors in it. Randy Couture won the UFC light heavyweight championship at the age of 40. Try again.

Green Cloud

05-14-2006, 04:18 PM

Father dog you talk about Randy C. being 40, but that's one guy and oh yea he is stand up. Like most good anti graplers he keeps him self from ever getting caught up on the ground and usualy knocks his opponents out. My entire system ( lama kung fu ) is based on anti grappling.

I have studied jj for years and get together with tai guys, boxers, and anyone I can get my hands on to improve what ever gaps I have in my system. The bottom line is that if you stick to what you know and keep yourself informed on what's out there than you can enjoy the style that suits you and do well against other styles.

The one thing that I don't agree with is the numbers that you guys are using to base your theories about CMA.

Statisticaly speaking only a handfull of Kung fu guys have ever competed in the UFC or in some MMA tourneys out of thousands of MMArtists. That said I do agree that most traditionalist only focus on forms and when it come to their training regiment they exclude cardio and weight training. Than again come to think of it so do most traditinal styles like karate jiujitsu and so on.

This doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with these styles, it's realy up to the individual to fill in the gaps in their training regiment. I visited with Mat serra who is one of gracies better fighters and I didn't see any weight or punching bags or anything in his gym. I just saw mats and a cage. Does that mean that they don't cross train outside of the gym??? Of course not.

The fact is most of the CMA bashers on this forum have all taken kung fu at one time or another and I find that they are disgruntal because their Sifu's never held their hands and made them go the extra mile.

It's realy up to the individual to take that upon himself if he or she realy want to. Don't blame the style blame the practitioner.

greencloud.com

Royal Dragon

05-14-2006, 06:08 PM

That said I do agree that most traditionalist only focus on forms and when it come to their training regiment they exclude cardio and weight training.

Reply]
Interesting comment..are you sure that those who do this are "Traditional"? Or are they *Modern* Silk Pajamas who have forgotten the traditional methods of building fighters, and practicing thier art?

Also, shouldn't your forms give you plenty of very sport specific Cardio?

Royal Dragon

05-14-2006, 07:08 PM

neilhytholt

05-14-2006, 08:03 PM

Statisticaly speaking only a handfull of Kung fu guys have ever competed in the UFC or in some MMA tourneys out of thousands of MMArtists.

Reply]
I Think Sifu Abel has brought this up before, but for the most part, CMA competitors are generally funneled into Kou Shou, or San Shou fighting. MMA isn't even on the radar.

I don't have the stats, but I bet you would see more CMA guys in K1 than UFC. Anyone know about this?

Well, K1 is different. Much less bloody for one thing. And the matches that I've caught on T.V. for K1 has been either kickboxing or sanshou, and in sanshou there are CMA fighters but they still wear closed gloves and can't do any grappling moves.

Cung Le was good at throwing people but one fighter I cought (who lost anyways by decision) would just go to his knees and that was that.

It seems like K1 is less realistic than the UFC.

Royal Dragon

05-14-2006, 08:30 PM

neilhytholt

05-14-2006, 09:56 PM

It seems like K1 is less realistic than the UFC.

Reply]
Maybe in the aspect of wearing gloves and such, but what is so realistic about the UFC? You are fighting on a matt, there are refs, and various other rules. Most competitors are not out to main or kill you, and you are not out to maim or kill them. It's really just hard sparring without extra equipment.

Also, unless things have changed since I paid attention last, if a guy is on the ground in UFC, don't you have to get down and grapel him? How realistic is that?

In a real fight, your opponent isn't going to get down and wrassle with you, they are going to stomp your head like melon untill your brains ooze out all over the place.

Well K1 gloves are not open, so you can't do any grappling. IMHO UFC is as realistic as you can get without seriously harming the other person. They fight to knockout or tap or where it's pretty obvious the other person couldn't defend themselves. If somebody's at that point, sure you could finish them, which is why they call a TKO and end the fight.

Fu-Pow

05-15-2006, 12:29 AM

I have studied jj for years and get together with tai guys, boxers, and anyone I can get my hands on to improve what ever gaps I have in my system. The bottom line is that if you stick to what you know and keep yourself informed on what's out there than you can enjoy the style that suits you and do well against other styles.

L]

I would say that you represent the small minority of TCMA people. And I am a TCMA person.

ShaolinTiger00

05-15-2006, 12:30 AM

ST, the statement you made was that you have to be a good grapler to be a good stand up fighter. Everything else you mention comes from experience and good training. So I still don't understand your point and then a mention about ballet or something.

My point was that your original statement made it sound as though those skills were unique to CMA when they clearly aren't.

Once again fighting is fighting and it takes practice and good training. Regardless of what style you do. It's the macho bull**** about fighting that I can't stand. Like I said in the past I have several systems under my belt. It's my preference to make my home in CMA because it's harder to learn and it takes longer to master that makes it all that much challenging. After learning CMA everything else seems like a peace of cake.

I'd agree. CMA is far more complicated and impractical than many arts. It could take years of practicing ridiculous animal forms before you'd master tham all.

I can understand how young testosterone filled guys wanna roll around all day, but lets see ya roll around like that when youre in your 40's. Youre just going to need something more sophisticated.

I'll have to mention this to my bjj instructor who is 57, a Vietnam vet and still taps me out.

By the way ST what made you study CMA for so long?? Did ya have bad experience or something??? Is that why your a hater??? None the less your on this forum trying to prove what???

Originally ignorance, then denial, then loyalty :D

I joined cma after college looking for excercise and always wanted to learn "martial arts" (ironically I grew up boxing and wrestling!) but like the majority was under the delusion of the superior, mysterious asian striking martial arts.

So I joined and happily lapped in all the heavenry grory :D including weapons, forms, qigong, taji, tea ceremonies etc. I was on my way to being a caucasian shaolin monk..;)

But in 1995 I saw the world wushu competition and the debut of san shou in the US and was blown away because it was the first time I saw wrestling (a skill that I excelled at) being used in conjunction with striking. My tcma teacher was not a sanshou coach and didn't want to become one so he recommended me to a coach and I moved shortly after to train kung fu and sanshou with that coach. The longer I was training the more sanshou I was doing and the less forms etc.. and I began to see the division in a fighter vs. a martial artist. I was a fighter, and I saw how my background made me a better fighter than many of my peers.

I was serious sanshou guy for years competing in most of the major tournaments until '99 and took time off for family. Shortly there after I got involved in a challenge match against a bjj guy on this very forum who was talking smack about CMA. no one else stepped up to represent, except me.

So I fought him and while he never hurt me, he did make me realize that I didn't know as much about the ground as I probably should, and I soon found myself doing judo and bjj and then saw the reality that is the integration of combat sports into the most effective unarmed fighting. - MMA which I've been doing ever since.

I don't hate CMA. in fact I have a lot of good memories in CMA and friends for life. BUT CMA needs to be honest about their skills and this forum is full of cyber warriors who talk about how great cma is but yet prove it so rarely. I'm just saying (and I said the same thing to you before Gus.) Is that if you (anyone) thinks that CMA is really so great, so advanced, more sophisticated and superior then let's see it! Enter in MMA fights where you can show us the mythical "anti-grappling" techgniques etc. because without factual evidence and record, it's all just heresay and it offers no credability to your claim.

No personally GC I now know you're 40 with a bum hip and I don't expect to see you fighting in the cage anytime soon, but that is all the more reason you should be glad guys like me are proving what truly works and what doesn't because we are the next generations teachers who have learned from past mistakes.

hung-le

05-15-2006, 01:35 AM

Of course today's MMA shows favor striking. That is what the majority of fans want to see. MMA is now a sport and plays to the fans who are mostly interested in the standup portion of the fights. The majority of today's MMA fans are not very well versed about the ground/grappling portion of fighting and find it to be boring.

Ever see two MMA fighters have to stop and restart into a grappling situation? Of course you don't, but you will often see the opposite happen.

Ballls..........!

And how many fights today don't make it to that stage? I.e. guys getting knocked out before they get a chance for a grappling situation?

a lot.......both in Pride and UFC

But .....this point ...is moot and secondary...to the real point I was making with jethro.....

The real point………

What's this have to do with Kung Fu?

Again let me reiterate what I posted three days ago.......................

Usually this crap is floated on this net by somebody with a macho handle like "Choke U Out" or "U been Taped" "Stick Fighter" or " Pig sticker " or Gun U down"

Sometimes they get clever with judo terms like "juji Gatame"

All posting with a bent on lording over any martial art that doesn't focus on grappling............i.e. CMA

there can be only two reasons

A) They are trolling ...and puffing up their cyber muscles....trying to stroke their pathetic egos....?

B) Or afraid to hang with people who know MMA etc....on a news group that actually centered around MMA.....................??? again….Why.....because of their fragile ego…??

why would someone hang around on a news group and talk about MMA on a net for kung fu?

Knife fighter……

I popped up your posts and counted the number of times you actually expressed a real thought about a CMA. I stopped after 40 when the pattern became obvious

Out of forty ONLY 2 where about WC (and you words were superficial at best ) the rest …..38…….yes 38 were all devoted