Wing Chun mirror training?

[RichieZ]

I am interested in learning wing chun. I have never studied martial arts but have been interested in doing so for a long time, just never had a chance until recently. A guy at my work place studies Wing Chun, and from what he tells me it is one of the most street effective styles to learn without spending a lifetime of study.

But he has also told me one thing that really has me curious. He said that in some Wing Chun schools, the ones that teach "modified" wing chun, they do mirror training. I asked him to explain and he said it is similar to the way boxers train, standing in front of a mirror and practice your techniques. He said that some masters like Yip Man and a few others (I can't remember the other names he mentioned) had such fast hand techniques that they could actually "out punch" their own reflection. I thought he was joking but he said no, they could literally punch so fast that they were slightly ahead of their reflection.

Does anyone know of any reference (book, magazine article, etc) where I could read more about that? If it is indeed possible, I am curious how long one must train in order to develop such speed and what special training techniques they might have used.

Also, he keeps mentioning "traditional" and "modified" wing chun. How can you tell if someone is doing one style or another? Are there certain techniques that differentiate the two, or is is more in the philosophy of application?

[GLW]

reflection..as in reflected LIGHT going 186,000 miles per SECOND...

****..that is a set of fast hands.....

Now - back to the physics channel

[anerlich]

He said that some masters like Yip Man and a few others (I can't remember the other names he mentioned) had such fast hand techniques that they could actually "out punch" their own reflection.

We know that Yip Man took opium to cope with his throat cancer ... so that may explain this somehow :rolleyes:

If your friend or you actually believe this, then you are idiots.

As for the trad/mod thing, you don't want to go there.

A poor troll attempt. I award 1.7 out of 10.

[Dave P]

Well Richie,

About mirror training:
Training techniques (SNT for example) in front of a mirror, learns you to see the mistakes you're making. It shows you if a shoulder is turned in or when your arm is to high or to low. You can even see if your stance is properly done. Especially when you just started your Wing Chun training, it's good to train in front of a mirror. You're immediatly confronted with your own mistakes, so you learn to see them and recognise them. So you will be able to change your mistakes en check yourself.
This is all 'we'use the mirror for. Tales as you were told in about punches that are faster than it's reflection are complete nonsense. You must not believe that crap. Wing Chun is not supernatural. Wong Shun Leung once said: "It's a human being system" This was related to a question about animalforms linked to Wing Chun. This 'clear' answer might also change the view you have. Always keep both feet on the ground my friend...

[Matrix]

RitchieZ,

Welcome to world of martial arts. :)
As you can see from this forum, there are very strong opinions in the Wing Chun world, and in fact, all martial arts seem to have a significant political element to them. Keep in mind, that people being people means that we like to feel that we are "right" and those who disagree with our point of view are "wrong", so we form groups and attach labels to them. Modified and Traditional are two such names. I recommend that you just look at these differences as two different approaches to the same goal. Find an instructor (sifu) who can teach you the basics. It's all basics, by the way , and enjoy the experience. Don't get caught up in the politics. It damages the spirit.

As for the mirror issue, people also like to tell stories, and these stories tend to grow into legends and myths as more fantactical embellishments are added over time. And no, you are NOT an idiot, just a little naive. Use your common sense and trust your gut. It's your natural GPS that will keep you travelling in the right direction.

Best of luck,

[RichieZ]

Well Richie,

About mirror training:
Training techniques (SNT for example) in front of a mirror, learns you to see the mistakes you're making. It shows you if a shoulder is turned in or when your arm is to high or to low. You can even see if your stance is properly done. Especially when you just started your Wing Chun training, it's good to train in front of a mirror. You're immediatly confronted with your own mistakes, so you learn to see them and recognise them. So you will be able to change your mistakes en check yourself.
This is all 'we'use the mirror for. Tales as you were told in about punches that are faster than it's reflection are complete nonsense. You must not believe that crap. Wing Chun is not supernatural. Wong Shun Leung once said: "It's a human being system" This was related to a question about animalforms linked to Wing Chun. This 'clear' answer might also change the view you have. Always keep both feet on the ground my friend...

Thanks for the reply, Dave. So it is as I expected, the mirror training is basically the same as in boxing...only to correct your form and technique and nothing "mystical". I was pretty sure that my friend wasn't being completely up front, but had no way to know for sure which is why I asked here amongst more experience practicioners. I think my friend just wanted to peak my interest even more, which wasn't necessary since I already decided that I will start taking lessons within a few weeks.

Thanks again for your answer,

Richie

[RichieZ]

RitchieZ,

Welcome to world of martial arts. :)
As you can see from this forum, there are very strong opinions in the Wing Chun world, and in fact, all martial arts seem to have a significant political element to them. Keep in mind, that people being people means that we like to feel that we are "right" and those who disagree with our point of view are "wrong", so we form groups and attach labels to them. Modified and Traditional are two such names. I recommend that you just look at these differences as two different approaches to the same goal. Find an instructor (sifu) who can teach you the basics. It's all basics, by the way , and enjoy the experience. Don't get caught up in the politics. It damages the spirit.

As for the mirror issue, people also like to tell stories, and these stories tend to grow into legends and myths as more fantactical embellishments are added over time. And no, you are NOT an idiot, just a little naive. Use your common sense and trust your gut. It's your natural GPS that will keep you travelling in the right direction.

Best of luck,

Matrix,

Thanks for your reply too. I was asking about the "traditional" and "modified" so that when I look for a school, I could try to tell which version they are teaching. But it probably isn't even important, as Bruce Lee said "a punch is a punch, a kick is a kick". And at my stage of just starting to learn, I am sure it will all look the same anyway right?

Don't worry, I know that I'm no idiot, it's just that I've read so many legends and supposed confirmed accounts of martial arts (i.e. masters punching 8 times in one second which seems impossible, etc.). I was suspicious of this guy's story but didn't want to put it off completely yet. I know every forum has a few a-holes and it looks like a couple posted here, but I appreciate yours and Dave's replies!

RichieZ

[couch]

I am interested in learning wing chun. I have never studied martial arts but have been interested in doing so for a long time, just never had a chance until recently. A guy at my work place studies Wing Chun, and from what he tells me it is one of the most street effective styles to learn without spending a lifetime of study.

But he has also told me one thing that really has me curious. He said that in some Wing Chun schools, the ones that teach "modified" wing chun, they do mirror training. I asked him to explain and he said it is similar to the way boxers train, standing in front of a mirror and practice your techniques. He said that some masters like Yip Man and a few others (I can't remember the other names he mentioned) had such fast hand techniques that they could actually "out punch" their own reflection. I thought he was joking but he said no, they could literally punch so fast that they were slightly ahead of their reflection.

Does anyone know of any reference (book, magazine article, etc) where I could read more about that? If it is indeed possible, I am curious how long one must train in order to develop such speed and what special training techniques they might have used.

Also, he keeps mentioning "traditional" and "modified" wing chun. How can you tell if someone is doing one style or another? Are there certain techniques that differentiate the two, or is is more in the philosophy of application?

Matrix and Dave P have really given you the goods on Wing Chun. They have both hit the nail on the head. Follow your own judgements and stay away from politics.

But to answer the modified vs. traditional WC, do your own research because everyone believes their Wing Chun is the best, right?!? :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Wing_Chun_Kung_Fu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_Chun

Best,
Kenton

[Chum Kil]

Another thought, stay away from looking at yourself in the mirror, it will screw you up big time. Wing Chun is a feeling art, feel what you are doing. If you do look at yourself in the mirror, try doing your forms without it and see how you feel, see if there is a difference between the two.

[bcbernam777]

"Central line" theory

Traditional Wing Chun replaces the conventional "centre line" construct of Modified Wing Chun with a slightly different "central line". In Modified Wing Chun, the centre line is an imaginary line that bisects the human body lengthwise, cutting through vital areas such as the heart, groin, solar plexus, nose and face. Protecting and attacking from the centre line becomes the imperative on which Modified Wing Chun's offensive/defensive techniques are derived.

Traditional Wing Chun's "central line" is slightly different. The central line is any area in front of the torso where both hands may be crossed. It is within this area (or "gate") that attacks are greeted and counter-attacks launched. The proposed advantage of the central line is that the practitioner's vital centre line is pointed away from incoming attacks whilst retaining the ambidextrous use of both hands. The diagonal stance also allows the rear leg to be used for additional structural support against particularly forceful attacks.
[edit]

Current Practitioners



* Thomas, B. (1994) "Appendix II: Wing Chun - And Beyond" from Bruce Lee: Fighting Spirit. London: Pan Macmillan, pp. 341-343
* Chu, R. (no date) "Traditional" and "Modified" [1] from ChuSauLei.Com Martial Arts (website), accessed August 17, 2005


This central line theory is also taught to myself under my Sifu but it is not called a central line theory it is called Confined area So Sifu teaches both the central line of the so called modified and the Central line of the TWC (of which I doubt it exists) so its not so exclusive after all.

[lawrenceofidaho]

Another thought, stay away from looking at yourself in the mirror, it will screw you up big time. Wing Chun is a feeling art, feel what you are doing. If you do look at yourself in the mirror, try doing your forms without it and see how you feel, see if there is a difference between the two.
Good points.......

RichieZ,

If you want to analyze your movements, videotaping is a better method as it lets you direct your focus more naturally.

[Mr Punch]

Another thought, stay away from looking at yourself in the mirror, it will screw you up big time. Wing Chun is a feeling art, feel what you are doing. If you do look at yourself in the mirror, try doing your forms without it and see how you feel, see if there is a difference between the two.I disagree a bit. For beginners who have just completed slt and occasionally to revisit later, I think mirror training is quite useful for getting you to relax your face, keep your shoulders down and make sure you're not jigging about too much. Sure WC is a feeling art, but if you don't know what to feel for, sometimes you feel it but in fact it's wrong. For some people the visual cues are useful at the start.

[Liddel]

Man i wish this sort of forum was around when i was a begginer - my learning curve may have been steeper and revealed some things in my mind earlier in my training process.

I find it Interesting - this 'Persona' of VT Practitioners in the martial arts world considering we have some fairly open minded free thinking individuals that have been attracked to our art. Obviously this is not true for all those that do VT but i always look to the positives.

Moving on - I agree with Mat on the mirror call - his explanation also aplies to those who cant afford mirrors and just have poles in the ground.

One other point is that the mirror is not only for seeing mistakes, looking at body position etc but also just giving you a target to give attacks to.
Your reflection is your opponent.

Ive seen all to often, students giving actions in front of them - that if used in fighting would (theoretically) miss the target, and ive thought they could use a mirror in training to rectify these problems, though a mirror is not the 'only' solution.

Chum Kil does have a point though - i think one would need to find a balance between the two points. :)

[viper]

After 3 years i still use mirrors its like ballet a good dancer is always checking there own tech plus its good to reconise things to be improved and shows u maybe a good teacher in the respect of correction.