Grappling preference: top or bottom... why

[Ray Pina]

For me, I like training from the bottom because usually, that's where you'll be if the other guy is bigger and better than you .... that's how you got your a$$ thrown in the first place.

If I'm bigger and/or better and can beat the guy down, usually I can just keep doing what I'm doing. Though obviously he need to know how not to wind up in a triangle or arm bar.

Thoughts?

[SevenStar]

train it all. strategy wise, intentionally trying to fight from the bottom isn't necessarily the wisest thing to do, as the person on top may pass your guard, leaving you VERY disadvantaged.

[WinterPalm]

I think Ray was suggesting that in a worse case scenario, you'll be on the bottom so it pays to spend some time training on the bottom to know what you can do in these situations. Personally I don't like the top: I train to get off the ground and keep fighting in a stand up situation, I won't follow to the ground unless it is in the process of applying a joint lock; otherwise, I train to get out from the bottom and back on my feet.

Preference: neither. Too many variables that can come into play and limited mobility on the bottom or in the guard. Although a lock of some sort would necessitate getting down there I prefer stand-up grappling.

[MasterKiller]

Well, you always WANT to be on top.

But for training purposes, like you said, learning to work from the bottom is essential, especially if you are primarily a stand-up guy with limited submissions.

I'm the smallest guy in my group (165 lbs), so I'm pretty much always fighting from the bottom.

[Ben Gash]

From behind :D Look, I coudn't help myself OK :rolleyes:

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i've only gotten a full mount once i think.

at 135 ... and a newbie ... im placed on the bottom whether i like it or not and i'm learning what to do from there. i manage a few new things each class though.

[Ray Pina]

Study Royce Gracie's fights .... he prefers and usually wins from the bottom. He usually pulls guard. Most of those that study under him seem to have the same preference.

This is why I favor Royce over Rickson. Both great fighters, but Royce's style seems to be less based on raw power, and he has proven it by beating men much larger than himself. Very hard to insist on the dominant position when the other has 50lbs+ on you.

Think about it, can a little girl pin you down? Can you pin down a 375lbs man?

[Shaolinlueb]

when i get to there i prefer to be on top. if im on bottom i try to reverse it.

[Crushing Fist]

Think about it, can a little girl pin you down?

is she over 18?


Can you pin down a 375lbs man?

375? not sure, it would depend on the guy I guess. but I have regularly pinned a guy who is mighty close to 300, and with me at 175 I have to say I don't like to be under that much weight.

I do prefer the top position, but as has been said you don't always get to choose. I tend to get submissions much quicker from the top and seem to have more chances to break away if it isn't going well. I do a lot of multiple attacker sparring, so grappling very much in those matches leads quickly to defeat. if its one on one grappling, either stand up or rolling, happens at least 50% of the time or more.

getting submissions from the bottom position is definitely a weak spot for me, so its what really should be practicing...

[SevenStar]

Study Royce Gracie's fights .... he prefers and usually wins from the bottom. He usually pulls guard. Most of those that study under him seem to have the same preference.

This is why I favor Royce over Rickson. Both great fighters, but Royce's style seems to be less based on raw power, and he has proven it by beating men much larger than himself. Very hard to insist on the dominant position when the other has 50lbs+ on you.

Think about it, can a little girl pin you down? Can you pin down a 375lbs man?

yeah, but he's royce. he's been grappling most of his life. with less experience - WAY less than he has - the bottom is not favorable. Naturally, you want to learn how to fight from there, but I wouldn't recommend purposely trying to fight from there. .

[yenhoi]

If you train grappling, with good grapplers, you will be forced to learn how to at least escape from most bottom positions, and you will probably pick up many submissions from inferior positions.

Back mount is not always 'on top' and having guard or half guard is not always 'on bottom' and quarter/turtle/etc is usually a side to side or some other generally odd position that doesnt fall into top or bottom.

You generally only get to choose when you are winning for some reason, or your way better, or way bigger, or training (and you shouldent get to choose, your trainer should..)

[Merryprankster]

On top.

In a fight, I do not want to be on the bottom - and I have a guard that most consider good. Good enough that guard pulling is a common opener for me.

Yes, I've pinned a 300+ pounder. He couldn't get out.

I've had people much lighter than me keep me pinned too.

[lkfmdc]

Royce benefitted in large part from opponents who didn't understand the guard... if you don't know the guard, your basic reactions will all get you killed... so for early UFC's it was a basicly sound strategy to put them in unfamiliar terrirory as oppsed to trying to take them down and possibly get hit

All that being said, it is still better to be on top and most BJJ people will tell you that

[Knifefighter]

Study Royce Gracie's fights .... he prefers and usually wins from the bottom. He usually pulls guard. Most of those that study under him seem to have the same preference.

Royce does not prefer guard. He just ends up there because he is smaller than many of his opponents and doesn't have great takedowns. Royce's preferred strategy is classic BJJ strategy- close/clinch to takedown to mount to finish from mount or back mount.

[Nick Forrer]

To play devils advocate...... I actually prefer to be on the bottom. You can strike very well from there, you can sweep and you can submit. in fact the surprise element against someone not trained in grappling means you will virtually always catch them in a triangle or armbar IME as they will always over extend themselves,,,,..Telles (oops sorry I dropped a name on your foot) told me when I trained with him that the guard is the most improtant position in BJJ. Other arts guard with the arms, we guard with the legs (the strongest muscle in the body). The basic concept behind BJJ is exemplified by Tome Nage: when he pushes we dont push back...rather we pull him over us and use his force against him. Hope this makes sense.

[hjt]

For me, I like training from the bottom because usually, that's where you'll be if the other guy is bigger and better than you .... that's how you got your a$$ thrown in the first place.

If I'm bigger and/or better and can beat the guy down, usually I can just keep doing what I'm doing. Though obviously he need to know how not to wind up in a triangle or arm bar.

Thoughts?


training purpose you want to train all aspects of grappling guard, mount, side mount, etc etc.

for the ring you rather have the dominating position, mount from here you cant strike and submitt. from the guard its kind of hard to submitt when someone is coming at you with punches, forearms and elbows.

usually when you grapple a guy who is bigger and better than you, doesnt matter where you end up chances are he will submitt in any position, whether is be mount, guard, sidemount, and all fours.

but it is always good to train all positions.

[FatherDog]

Think about it, can a little girl pin you down? Can you pin down a 375lbs man?

To add my voice to MP's, yes. Absolutely. I can and have.

[Ray Pina]

I know it can be done. Heck, most of the fights I win I have done so by beating the guy down. But I'm talking about preparing yourself for when the other guy is BIGGER and BETTER than you. He will take you down.

I've beaten guys who are over 300lbs .... but I have to ask myself, "How good could they have been."

If you're 150lbs and can easily pin down a 300lbs guy somethings wrong with one of you .... guess which one?

[Crushing Fist]

true that...











bigger and better= s(rewed

[Merryprankster]

If you're 150lbs and can easily pin down a 300lbs guy somethings wrong with one of you .... guess which one?

I disagree with this. It's quite possible the 300 lber is competent, it's just that the 150 lber is very good.

Or, alternately, the 300 lb guy may not be good at escapes. I know many people who are particularly strong at one or two aspects of their game, but mediocre in other aspects. But you have to evaluate the whole person, not one or two parts.

But yes, of course if the guy is bigger and better than you, you are in trouble. I don't really think that's in dispute.