f Cung Le is successful in MMA, what effects on CMA will his success have?

[quickjab]

If Cung Le goes on to have a decent MMA career, what effects eill that have on the CMA and San Da/San Shou community? While I don't think he'll be THE best, I think he'll beat some decent fighters along the way. Will he be the poster boy for CMA?

[WanderingMonk]

If Cung Le goes on to have a decent MMA career, what effects eill that have on the CMA and San Da/San Shou community? While I don't think he'll be THE best, I think he'll beat some decent fighters along the way. Will he be the poster boy for CMA?


If cung Le become successful, then may be more MMA fighters would join his school. then. if his school produce competitive mma fighters consistently, then san da will become a viable replace for muay thai in the standup training regime for mma crowd.

all these are limited by number of quality san-da training camps.

competitiveness of the fighters field by these camps

[Chief Fox]

Nothing. All the MMA guys will still say that kung fu is worthless and back that up by saying that Cung Le has adapted to their fighting style.

[Shaolinlueb]

well from watching the latest season of the ufc show most of the guys stand up skills are completely awful and junk. cung lee his are really good. maybe he could bring good stand up back into mma.

[Hieronim]

I wish jackie chan or tony jaa would compete in mma. Jackie chan was so badass and athletic in his early movie days.

[Fallout]

The problem is San Shou is not really the same thing as what you train in your traditional kung fu school. It is chinese.... and a martial art...... but the similarities end there.

It's like trying to validate TKD as an effective style by using Korean boxers as the poster boys. Korea produces very good boxers, and it's very likely they have a TKD black belt, but there isn't a direct relation to TKD and their success.

[Fallout]

Cung Le has a black belt in BJJ. He could rep BJJ guys.

He has a black belt in TKD. His fighting style resembles TKD with his back kicks, scissors takedowns, and other spinning paraphanailia. Is his success becuase of his TKD training? probably no more than his kung fu training.

[Fallout]

I wish jackie chan or tony jaa would compete in mma. Jackie chan was so badass and athletic in his early movie days.

sigh. Jackie Chan, Bruce Lee's ghost, Tony Jaa, and even the uber deadly Jean Claude Van Dam would get schooled in MMA.

[Mr Punch]

If cung Le become successful, then may be more MMA fighters would join his school. then. if his school produce competitive mma fighters consistently, then san da will become a viable replace for muay thai in the standup training regime for mma crowd.

all these are limited by number of quality san-da training camps.

competitiveness of the fighters field by these campsMaybe.


Nothing. All the MMA guys will still say that kung fu is worthless and back that up by saying that Cung Le has adapted to their fighting style.Maybe.

well from watching the latest season of the ufc show most of the guys stand up skills are completely awful and junk. cung lee his are really good. maybe he could bring good stand up back into mma.Maybe.

I suspect all of the above, with no way of determining how much of each.

Fallout, I think we can sometimes give the fighter the benefit of the doubt. Why would Cung Le even bother arguing that his skills are at least more strongly based in san da than TKD? If he says so, who am I to say he's lying? In Jason Delucia's case, it's difficult to see any aiki based techs in his fighting. Maybe there are some aiki principles he applies in his bjj, and he has found some nice pics of Ueshiba doing chokes and a newaza arm bar, but that doesn't mean that Ueshiba taught chokes and arm bars or even included them in aikido after daitoryu. So in some cases you have to take these things with a pinch of salt. But for example, I could easily argue that the aiki atemi I was taught look extremely like my kung fu strikes: they do... but to an outsider if I said I was using aiki to strike, they would say, no, that comes from my kung fu. It's a fine line.

[SevenStar]

To be perfectly honest, I don't think it will do anything at all for cma. It's no secret that le is a very good wrestler and that he has years of tkd experience. Even though he fights in san shou competitions, he's not a pure cma. I can see a few things happening though:

1. tkd gains even MORE popularity, helping it to retain its crown as the most widely trained and taught MA.

2. you see more mma guys entering san shou competitions and general increased interest in san shou.

3. cung's school gets increased enrollment and several of his guys break into mma.

[tug]

I wish jackie chan or tony jaa would compete in mma. Jackie chan was so badass and athletic in his early movie days.


I sincerely hope you're joking (but secretly somehow know you're not).

[Green Cloud]

Since Cung le's first MMA People have come out of the wood workings claiming all kind of nonsense about his style of fighting. The fact is Cung le came out and gave credit to San Da for his succes. He didn't credit tae kwon do, jiu jitsu or his vast wrestling back round.

We have to remember That sa da (san shou) is very much Chinese and very much part of kung fu. Just because you put on a pair of boxing gloves on and step into the ring, doesn't mean that you are now a kick boxer. All the tech including the throwing and fighting strategy is very much a part of kung fu.

The trowing tech are from sit gat (swai jow). As far as the kicking tech. well it's not tae kwon do. Standard kicks are as follows, Dim Toi, Chun sam toi, chai toi,peck toi, fu mei toi, Bai moon toi. These are kicks that are indiginus to kung fu.

The only thing that is taken away from kung fu is the fact that the practitionar has to adjust his fighting due to the boxing gloves he has on. This keeps him from using his fingers. This is what makes this a sport, the limited use of your arsenal, just like Judo or boxing.

Keep in mind that when it comes to chinese grappling tech we don't rely as much on the use of the gi like in jiu jitsu and judo. As far as punching tech. you are now mixing boxing punches and traditional kung fu tech. like saw chois chop chois, cup chois, been chois. None of these punches are allowd when using Roxbery rules.

We are quick to give credit to tae kwon do when some one has clean effective kicks. The problem with the ufc is taht most of the fighters are excelent athletes but when it comes to fighting some guys are either graplers or stand up fighters. Some are just jack of all trades masters of none.

Now you get a guy like Cung who has great kicking ability and punching abilities, but he can also snatch an apponent out of the air and slam him into su flex. Forget about going to the ground now you have to worry about a San Da fighter that is waring fingerless 6 oz. loves that is used to knocking people ou with 16 oz gloves.

Stop trying to make sense of it it's kung fu.


greencloud.net

[Merryprankster]

Green Cloud,

Ok. San Da is CMA. I don't think anybody will disagree with you.

Cung Le SHOULD credit San Da for his success - it's an integrated venue that taught him to punch/kick/throw and deal with the same coming at him all at once.

But to say that his TKD and strong wrestling background didn't inform his fighting is a bit disingenuous.

You say for instance, that his throwing is from sit gat. Yet, I watch his throws and I have seen every one of them, excepting the spinning back kick takedown thing, in wrestling matches, and Judo has Kani Basami, which is quite similar in execution to Cung Le's signature takedown. I'm going to bet a couple of things about Cung Le:

1. Most of his takedowns are wrestling derived skill sets
2. He doesn't care WHERE the skill set comes from. He'll use it if it works for him because his focus is on winning, not talking about/repping a "style."

2a. I've noticed that people who have fighting experience tend not to distinguish between stuff "I got that from this, and this from that, and the other from over there...." They look at it more as "all the same ****."

IMO, this is because good principles transcend style....


Like 7*, I think this isn't going to do anything for the CMA community. If Cung Le had come from a straight CMA background, it might have. But, since Cung Le is a well known wrestling and TKD stud, along with his CMA experience, who competes in a CMA format/art, what Cung Le really is is.....

a mixed martial artist who chooses to compete in San Da. ;)

But, I think it will definitely get people to start looking at San Da. Incidentally, I can't think of any MMA/BJJ type off the top of my head who doesn't respect San Da fighters. And I would argue that the ones that don't are stupid and might change their tune substantially if they got in the ring with them.

Personally, I think San Da + BJJ is going to be the wave of the MMA future.

[HearWa]

So does Cung Lee go around telling people he is a CMA practitioner, or does the CMA community just project that image on him?

[Green Cloud]

Ok what ever you guy say:rolleyes:

[wutymes]

The problem is San Shou is not really the same thing as what you train in your traditional kung fu school. It is chinese.... and a martial art...... but the similarities end there.

It's like trying to validate TKD as an effective style by using Korean boxers as the poster boys. Korea produces very good boxers, and it's very likely they have a TKD black belt, but there isn't a direct relation to TKD and their success.


I have to second you there. I see very few san shou fighters using something Chinese that doesn't exist elsewhere.

[ShaolinTiger00]

So does Cung Lee go around telling people he is a CMA practitioner, or does the CMA community just project that image on him?

Exactly. They just ride on his coat tails.

[SimonM]

I sincerely hope you're joking (but secretly somehow know you're not).

Jackie Chan is much more likely to stick with what he is good at: singing songs.

Seriously. Chan Long's gong fu isn't the greatest these days but he has a stellar voice.

As for Tony Jaa. He'd get so schooled in an MMA fight he'd be lucky to come out with all of his limbs.

[SevenStar]

Since Cung le's first MMA People have come out of the wood workings claiming all kind of nonsense about his style of fighting. The fact is Cung le came out and gave credit to San Da for his succes. He didn't credit tae kwon do, jiu jitsu or his vast wrestling back round.

We have to remember That sa da (san shou) is very much Chinese and very much part of kung fu. Just because you put on a pair of boxing gloves on and step into the ring, doesn't mean that you are now a kick boxer. All the tech including the throwing and fighting strategy is very much a part of kung fu.

The trowing tech are from sit gat (swai jow). As far as the kicking tech. well it's not tae kwon do. Standard kicks are as follows, Dim Toi, Chun sam toi, chai toi,peck toi, fu mei toi, Bai moon toi. These are kicks that are indiginus to kung fu.

The only thing that is taken away from kung fu is the fact that the practitionar has to adjust his fighting due to the boxing gloves he has on. This keeps him from using his fingers. This is what makes this a sport, the limited use of your arsenal, just like Judo or boxing.

Keep in mind that when it comes to chinese grappling tech we don't rely as much on the use of the gi like in jiu jitsu and judo. As far as punching tech. you are now mixing boxing punches and traditional kung fu tech. like saw chois chop chois, cup chois, been chois. None of these punches are allowd when using Roxbery rules.

We are quick to give credit to tae kwon do when some one has clean effective kicks. The problem with the ufc is taht most of the fighters are excelent athletes but when it comes to fighting some guys are either graplers or stand up fighters. Some are just jack of all trades masters of none.

Now you get a guy like Cung who has great kicking ability and punching abilities, but he can also snatch an apponent out of the air and slam him into su flex. Forget about going to the ground now you have to worry about a San Da fighter that is waring fingerless 6 oz. loves that is used to knocking people ou with 16 oz gloves.

Stop trying to make sense of it it's kung fu.


greencloud.net

stop trying to label everything as kung fu. it's not. the man simultaneously trained "vietnamese kung fu" and tkd. He is also a national wrestling champ and has been wrestling since 8th grade - WAY longer than he's been doing kung fu. So, if he's been wrestling most of his life, why in the world would most of his throws be shuai chiao? And How many CMA schools with the exception of pure shuai chiao schools practice at an intensity and a frequency to allow them to use such throws in competition? Le's own manager has been quoted saying the following:

"Sanshou uses the hands of boxing, the specialized kicks of kung fu and the throws of Greco-Roman wrestling."

you were saying you don't rely on use of a gi like judo does - wrestling doesn't use a gi either...

stop trying to make everything kung fu.

[lkfmdc]

Le's own manager has been quoted saying the following:

"Sanshou uses the hands of boxing, the specialized kicks of kung fu and the throws of Greco-Roman wrestling."



I'm curious who this "manager" person is, as I know Cung and as far as I know he is SELF MANAGED.. the quote is also totally fooey :rolleyes:

NO one is going to dispute Cung wrestled, and it DID make for a nice base..

And he did some TKD for sure....

But he also studied San Shou/San Da with the Chinese national team...

And if you look at pre national team trained Cung vs. after national team trained Cung, you are looking at very different fighters...

[Shaolinlueb]

Stop trying to make sense of it it's kung fu.


very well said. its all kung fu anyways.

[Ray Pina]

Good principles are good principles.... if the source is good you can get it from several styles.

I can get a good position while ground fighting and my BJJ friend says I did this or that .... I'm just maintaining contact and position, trying to control his hips, get good elbow position. That's how I was taught.

At various times I'll say it's Hsing-I, Taiji, Ba Gua, E-CHuan, all depends what I was training when I "got it", or what intention made more sense to me.

To a BJJ guy all good ground work looks like BJJ.... that's his language. All trapping looks like Wing Chun to a Wing Chun guy ..... all round kicks, side kicks and back kicks look like TKD to TKD, look like San Da to San Da.

The guys fighting over this stuff want to somehow relate themself to winners to validate their training and it's natural. But at some point Kung Fu guys have to stop talking about their masters and BJJ guys have to stop talking about the very small percentage of guys who have the balls to get into the cage. When you see what works for you, you don't need to validate it.

All the styles mentioned could produce a Cung Le .... what was needed was someone with Cung Le's determination and discipline to train. That's the hard part.

[SevenStar]

I'm curious who this "manager" person is, as I know Cung and as far as I know he is SELF MANAGED.. the quote is also totally fooey :rolleyes:

NO one is going to dispute Cung wrestled, and it DID make for a nice base..

And he did some TKD for sure....

But he also studied San Shou/San Da with the Chinese national team...

And if you look at pre national team trained Cung vs. after national team trained Cung, you are looking at very different fighters...

the father of santos soto jr - one of the guys that is on cung's fight team. maybe he's just a close friend?

However, the fact that he trained with the national team is irrelevant to my point - what he does isn't pure CMA.

[neilhytholt]

The thing I don't get about MMA is that it doesn't resemble CMA or traditional JMA at all. There are absolutely no strikes to vital targets.

So once you remove all that, not striking the neck, not striking the groin, not striking the back of the head, no downward elbows to the back, etc., then what do you have left? Basically it's pretty much all the same. The fighting style evolves to fit the fighting rules.

[SevenStar]

The thing I don't get about MMA is that it doesn't resemble CMA or traditional JMA at all. There are absolutely no strikes to vital targets.

So once you remove all that, not striking the neck, not striking the groin, not striking the back of the head, no downward elbows to the back, etc., then what do you have left? Basically it's pretty much all the same. The fighting style evolves to fit the fighting rules.


for one, vital targets are usually hard to hit - you are targeting small points on the body of a person trying to rip your head off.

two, there are points targeted:

1. strikes to the jaw produce KOs.
2. a shot to the forehead can snap your head upward, exposing the chin.
3. the liver
4. the sciatic nerve and also just above the knee. Leg kicks are a sono***un.

strikes to these areas won't kill you, but they are viable targets.

[neilhytholt]

for one, vital targets are usually hard to hit - you are targeting small points on the body of a person trying to rip your head off.

two, there are points targeted:

1. strikes to the jaw produce KOs.
2. a shot to the forehead can snap your head upward, exposing the chin.
3. the liver
4. the sciatic nerve and also just above the knee. Leg kicks are a sono***un.

strikes to these areas won't kill you, but they are viable targets.

The thing is, I've been watching the UFC since it started, and whereas it used to be style vs. style, it evolved into boxing/BJJ/Muay Thai (if you can call it that, most people don't kick a lot).

There are a few people who have some slightly different style (like backfists, etc.) or leg kicks (like that one guy that won with a leg kick to Dan Severn), but most don't.

And I've caught a couple of Cung Le's K1 fights, and he does have a relatively unique style in that arena in that he focuses a lot on throws, like a sanda fighter, but the problem there is it's easily neutralized if the fighter goes to his knees (I can't remember the fighter, but there was this one fight where Cung Le kept trying to throw and the other fighter kept going to his knees, neutralizing the throw).

Anyway it seems like the techniques tend to follow the rules. I mean, if a kung-fu guy did boxing, he wouldn't be able to do any palm strikes, right? It would just be boxing rules. I don't know if palm strikes are even allowed in the UFC. I've never seen any.

Anyway it's obvious to me I need to stop posting on here and thinking about fighting before I get into another altercation. :)

[SevenStar]

palm strikes are allowed.

But yeah, you're right - you cater to the venue that you fight in. that's not why vital areas aren't targeted though - many of them are legal - it's more of what I posted earlier about them being hard to hit while soneone is trying to rip your head off.

As for the style evolution, why did it happen? the other styles got owned. what you see now is a formula for what has been successful over the years.

[SimonM]

Is it Gong Fu?

Yes.
No.
Does it matter?

I've been doing folk wrestling for longer than any other martial art when I grapple it looks like folk wrestling as I often go for leg-throws, suplexes or just drag the guy to the ground with me.
I've studied a smattering of kenpo, judo, shorin ryu and fencing.
I've done boxing regularly and when I punch I punch like a boxer.
I've also trained in Gong Fu.

What do I call my martial art (which is a blend of CMA, EMA and a bit of JMA)?

Gong Fu.

[Green Cloud]

I don't know where to begin. First of all most systems of kung fu especialy lama and choy lee fut teach throwing and ground fighting tech. Swai jow just specializes in it. The countles forms that we learn show the practitioners all aspects of sit gat. Now I don't care to debate since my time is limmited.

Your generalization is limmited to what your understanding of kung fu is. This doesn't suprise me since most guys that study kung fu are not aware of how their kung fu systems work. That's due to the fact that most sifu's don't know what the aplications are beyond the pretty forms.

As far as Cung le doing wrestling or tae kwon do, who cares I did wrestling and hold a black belt in jiu jitsu and a black in tae kwon do. I didn't know my ass from my elbow or how to truly be an efective fighter till I found kung fu.

As far as Cung Le he did tae kwon do and wrestling in the past, but he found his home in san shou ( san da) and has been involved in it for 20 years more or less.


I think that overides his past. He is cherished by the Kung Fu community as the national full contact champ. Just because he has entered the comercial world of the ufc doesn't mean that all of a suden he is relying on his roman gcreco skill.

I don't know about you but I didn,t see any wrestling or ta kwon do going on in his fight. San da is the Modern sport version of kung fu. It wasn't invented by westerners or by the koreans or by the japanese.

If you put gloves on traditional shaolin monks then they call it san show. Just go to china they all do it when it comes to sparring.

Wait I know the people in china all learned their throws by watching greco wrestling on cable television. You know how everyone there gets HBO.:rolleyes:

As far as for labeling everything everything kung fu, I don't know where you come from but if it's from China it's kung fu. I don't teach San Da in my school because it comes from Japan , I teach it as part of my curiculum.

I was there when San da was being conceived in kung fu tournaments. It wasn't conceived in Karate tourneys or in MA tourneys.

Your statements are just plain stupid. San Da is a Chinese martial art sport. Stop trying to call everything mixed martial arts. What kung fu can modernize. If you put gloves on a kung fu guy is he now doing mixed martial arts??

The fact is Kung Fu has such a large arsenal of tech. That it could be a mixed martial art so then this debate is a mute point.


greencloud.net

[quickjab]

Palm strikes are allowed in MMA, you see alot of palm strikes in PANCRASE in Japan. I disagree with the whole "TMA guys got owned" in the early UFC's. If you watch them again, the TMA guys didn't do as bad as people think. They just couldn't beat the grapplers. Muay Thai, if I'm correct, didn't fare any better than the other striking MA's in the early UFC's.

[SevenStar]

Palm strikes are allowed in MMA, you see alot of palm strikes in PANCRASE in Japan. I disagree with the whole "TMA guys got owned" in the early UFC's. If you watch them again, the TMA guys didn't do as bad as people think. They just couldn't beat the grapplers. Muay Thai, if I'm correct, didn't fare any better than the other striking MA's in the early UFC's.

doesn't matter who owned them, really... they got owned. period. heck tank abbot was just a "pit fighter" and look what he did to many guys... muay thai did much better and was one of - if not the - first arts used to beat a grappler. that was when mo smith did it. since then, bjj and muay thai have been the arts of choice.

[SevenStar]

I don't know where to begin. First of all most systems of kung fu especialy lama and choy lee fut teach throwing and ground fighting tech. Swai jow just specializes in it. The countles forms that we learn show the practitioners all aspects of sit gat. Now I don't care to debate since my time is limmited.

Your generalization is limmited to what your understanding of kung fu is. This doesn't suprise me since most guys that study kung fu are not aware of how their kung fu systems work. That's due to the fact that most sifu's don't know what the aplications are beyond the pretty forms.

IMO, this is the mistake most people make. Heck, I learned throws in longfist. I learned them in jkd and in karate also. But any judoka I train with would school them all when it comes to throwing. Why? because even though we learned the throws, we didn't do them frequently enough to be solid in them. that takes constant work. A specialist style like shuai chiao is a good example, as are judo and wrestling. your average striking based stand up style does too many other things to focus enough on throws. after all, it's ti, da, shuai, na, no? In addition there are weapons, iron body, qigong... way too segmented.


As far as Cung le doing wrestling or tae kwon do, who cares I did wrestling and hold a black belt in jiu jitsu and a black in tae kwon do. I didn't know my ass from my elbow or how to truly be an efective fighter till I found kung fu.

No offense, but I would blame your trainers for that. I learned a lot about effective fighting when I trained in karate, but

1. my teacher moved back to japan
2. I prefer muay thai anyway

As far as Cung Le he did tae kwon do and wrestling in the past, but he found his home in san shou ( san da) and has been involved in it for 20 years more or less.


I think that overides his past. He is cherished by the Kung Fu community as the national full contact champ. Just because he has entered the comercial world of the ufc doesn't mean that all of a suden he is relying on his roman gcreco skill.

so you think his greco isn't coming into play at all? a national wrestling champ that doesn't use his wrestling? wake up...


I don't know about you but I didn,t see any wrestling or ta kwon do going on in his fight. San da is the Modern sport version of kung fu. It wasn't invented by westerners or by the koreans or by the japanese.

because you are wearing your kung fu blinders, as merry pointed out earlier. When I see the fight, I don't see kung fu, I see a lot of things - but I look through unbiased eyes. what style he used is actually irrelevant. that's something I've learned through competing. If I drop someone with a right hand, was is a boxing straight right, or a karate reverse punch? In the end does it matter? I plan on doing some san shou tourneys eventually. If I win, am I doing kung fu? No...


Wait I know the people in china all learned their throws by watching greco wrestling on cable television. You know how everyone there gets HBO.:rolleyes:

[quote]As far as for labeling everything everything kung fu, I don't know where you come from but if it's from China it's kung fu. I don't teach San Da in my school because it comes from Japan , I teach it as part of my curiculum.

sure, they throw. but you are missing the point. cung is not a pure cma. his wrestling IS greco. you can't say what he does is kung fu. it's tkd, wrestling AND kung fu.


Your statements are just plain stupid. San Da is a Chinese martial art sport. Stop trying to call everything mixed martial arts. What kung fu can modernize. If you put gloves on a kung fu guy is he now doing mixed martial arts??

actually, your statements are stupid. really. you can't take someone who has trained various NON CHINESE styles in addition to kung fu and say everything he does is kung fu. you must be able to see a flaw there. you can't label everything as kung fu if it's more than just kung fu.

The fact is Kung Fu has such a large arsenal of tech. That it could be a mixed martial art so then this debate is a mute point.


No, not really, but that is a separate discussion.

[Hieronim]

I sincerely hope you're joking (but secretly somehow know you're not).

why is that? who says movie fighting cant work in real life, for instance I take some techniques I see in a movie and try to apply it int rianing or with someone as a partner and often they are valid and solid techniques. Just because a mvoie ic cheographed doesnt mean the techniques are bad or the actors cant fight, heck jet li said back in the day they basically sparred and didnt cut any of the entire fight scene.

[SevenStar]

UFC 1 results:

delucia - a supposed kung fu guy who converted to bjj when royce beat him - won his fight by rear naked choke - bjj.

Gordeau vs. Tuli - Gordeau wins by referee stoppage (kick) - savatte beat sumo

Rosier vs. Frazier - Rosier wins by the towel being thrown in (stomps) - kickboxing beat kenpo

Gracie vs. Jimmerson - Gracie wins by tapout (mount) - bjj beat boxing

Shamrock vs. Smith - Shamrock wins by tapout (leglock) grappling beat kickboxing

Semi Finals:

Gordeau vs. Rosier - Gordeau wins by referee stoppage (stomps)
Gracie vs. Shamrock - Gracie wins by tapout (rear naked choke)

Finals:

Gracie vs. Gordeau - Royce Gracie wins by tapout (rear naked choke)


---------------------------

UFC 2:

Preliminary Round:
Morris vs. Daugherty - Morris wins by tapout (guillotine choke) - the ninja beat the karateka.

Smith vs. Wizard - Smith wins by tapout (guillotine choke) - kickboxing beat karate

Rhodes vs. Levicki - Rhodes wins by tapout (strikes) - karate beat kung fu

Hammaker vs. Luster - Hammaker wins by tapout (choke) - sambo beat kung fu

Weit vs. Lucarrelli - Weit wins by corner stoppage (elbows) - muay thai beat kickboxing

Pardoel vs. Leon - Pardoel wins by referee stoppage (strikes) - bjj beat silat

Delucia vs. Baker - Delucia wins by tapout (strikes) - bjj/kung fu beat kung fu using bjj

Gracie vs. Ichihara - Gracie wins by tapout (armbar) - bjj beat karate

Quarter Finals:
Smith vs. Morris - Smith wins by referee stoppage (strikes) - kickboxing beat ninja

Rhodes vs. Ettish - Rhodes wins by tapout (bar choke) - karate beat karate

Pardoel vs. Weit - Pardoel wins by knockout (elbows) - bjj beat muay thai

Gracie vs. Delucia - Gracie wins by tapout (armbar) - bjj beat bjj/kung fu

Semi Finals:
Smith vs. Rhodes - Smith wins by tapout (guillotine choke) - kickboxing beat karate

Gracie vs. Pardoel - Gracie wins by tapout (gi choke) - bjj beat bjj

Finals:
Gracie vs. Smith - Gracie wins by corner stoppage (punches) bjj beat kickboxing

Royce Gracie is the UFC II Champion


So far, kung fu has 0 wins, except for the cma that cross trained in bjj.
kickboxing beat every tma it encountered
muay thai beat kickboxing
karate has only beaten kung fu and karate

------------------------------------

UFC 3

Quarter Finals:
Hackney vs. Yarbrough - Hackney wins by tapout (punches) - kenpo beat sumo

Shamrock vs. Leininger - Shamrock wins by tapout (choke) - shootfighting beat judo

Howard vs. Payne - Howard wins by knockout (punches) - jujutsu beat muay thai

Gracie vs. Leopoldo - Gracie wins by tapout (armbar) - bjj beat tkd

Semi Finals:
Shamrock vs. Mitchell - Shamrock wins by tapout (choke) - shootfighting beat kung fu

Gracie vs. Howard - Howard wins by forfeit

Heading:
Jennum vs. Howard - Jennum wins by tapout (punches) - ninja beat jujutsu

Steve Jennum is the UFC III Champion

------------------------------------

I'm getting tired of typing, so I will now only post incidents of TMA wins/losses:

UFC 4

only the ninja and van clief. both lost.

------------------------------------

UFC 5

Taktarov vs. Verdicia - Taktarov wins by tapout (choke) - sambo beat kenpo

Mezger vs. Dowdy - Mezger wins by corner stoppage (strikes) - kickboxing beat hapkido

Hess vs. Anderson - Hess wins by corner stoppage (strikes) - SAFTA beat TKD

Beneteau vs. Cancio - Beneteau wins by tapout (punches) - judo/wrestling beat kung fu

Medina vs. Cureton - Medina wins by tapout (choke) - jkd beat kickboxing

Beneteau vs. Medina - Beneteau wins by corner stoppage (punches) - judo/wrestling beat tkd

------------------------------------

UFC 6

Sutton vs. McClaughlin - Sutton wins by corner stoppage (strikes) - kung fu beat aikido

Abbott vs. Matua - Abbott wins by knockout (punches) - untrained brawler beats hawaiian stylist

Varelans vs. Worsham - Varelans wins by tapout (elbows) - jkd beat tkd

Smith vs. Moncayo - Smith wins by tapout (strikes) - kickboxing beat kenpo

-----------------------------

UFC 7

Sutton vs. Kalman, Jr. - Sutton wins by referee stoppage (headbutts) - kung fu beat wrestling

Parungao vs. Maturi - Parungao wins by tapout (strikes) - FMA beat wrestling

Bessac vs. Hood - Bessac wins by tapout (guillotine choke) - shootfighting beat jkd

Pardoel vs. Parker - Pardoel wins by tapout (choke) - bjj/judo beats okinawan karate

Varelans vs. Hall - Varelans wins by tapout (armlock) - jkd beats moo yea do

Varelans vs. Harris - Varelans wins by tapout (elbows) - jkd beat kyokushin

--------------------------------

UFC 8

Frye vs. Ramirez - Frye wins by knockout (punches) wrestling/boxing beats bagua

[jethro]

why is that? who says movie fighting cant work in real life, for instance I take some techniques I see in a movie and try to apply it int rianing or with someone as a partner and often they are valid and solid techniques. Just because a mvoie ic cheographed doesnt mean the techniques are bad or the actors cant fight, heck jet li said back in the day they basically sparred and didnt cut any of the entire fight scene.


maybe in shaolin temple they just went at it as hard as they could without tryign to hurt eachother, but in all of woo-png's stuff they are just doing stunts and close ups and stuff. You might get like 20-30 seconds max of real fighting, but it is mostly trick shots.

[CaptinPickAxe]

well from watching the latest season of the ufc show most of the guys stand up skills are completely awful and junk. cung lee his are really good. maybe he could bring good stand up back into mma.


wait, wait, wait...
Did you just say that stand up lacks in MMA? Have you watched a Wanderlei Silva fight? I could swore that Pride was MMA... I could swore he beats the tar out of his opponents standing up, not submits them.

I mean, I could be wrong...



or not.

As for Kung Le. Does he train JUST Gong Fu? If not, that would qualify him as a Mixed Martial Artist. I'm not falling into line with the rest of MMAers, but it seems like common sense. Mixing MAs=MMA.

Gary Goodrich is a Kuk Sool Won guy, but nobody goes around kissing him below the belt as the Jesus of said art. He's just a good fighter. I guess when someone sees a successful fighter who trains in their art, they forget all the other things he trains and and goes, "OOOH, Wanderlei Silva trains a little BJJ! That's why he's winning!" When you should be saying, "Wow, Wanderlei Silva has a broad horizon and his training regiment and style mixings are commendable."

Just a thought.

[quickjab]

Pat Smith is a kickboxer, but he's also a Tae Kwon Do practicioner. UFC 8 you forgot Gary "Big Daddy " Goodridge vs Paul Herrera. Goodridge is a kickboxer also, but was reppin for Kuk sool won, he even fought with the ksw gi on.

[quickjab]

Vanderlei is a monster. I think the stand in the UFC specifically is getting a little worse. Alot of the young guys coming in don't seem to be GREAT strikers, though I could be wrong. PRIDE's striking is still pretty **** good

[Hieronim]

if you want tma advertised through mma as the vehicle than I suggest you join the ultimate fighter, very good way for publicity and you work your way up through a tournament type format, not too mention they have alot of begininers on there with few months or few yrs training mixed with more experienced guys.

[Green Cloud]

Seven star, thank you for giving me the break down of who won what fights. Those guys that steped into the ring claiming to do kung fu were not kung fu guys.

We had this discussion about kempo people in the san soo thread. I already have stated that people say they do kung fu but they are only off shoots of kung fu.

Know don't get me wrong, I know that you love BBJ and favor it, but it's not the end all beat all. It's just the flavor of the month.

Of course Cung le has a wrestling back round, and that will only help him in the UFC. Altough as I stated what will make Cung a great fighter is His San Da training. Once again San Da is a CMA, In my statements obove I was defending San Da a modern form of Kung Fu, and that's a fact.

I also stated that Kung has been training and fighting in San Da San Shou for over 20 years now. Lets try not to confuse San Da with kick boxing or mui tai.
It is its own style with its own set of rules.

As far as seeing the drunken monkey tech. or something in the ring, well that's not going to happen. When you put the gloves on a kung fu guy he is going to have to abide by the rules of the venue. The kung fu training will just give you polished tech. and help you move beter. The stance work in Kung Fu will help you with your transitions and help you flow from one tech. to another.

And oh yea In Tae kwon do there is a different type of rythem to the kicking they do. It's usualy fast with multiple kicks, just because you saw kung throw a spinning back kick doesn't mean that it's automaticaly a Tae kwon do kick.

In Kung Fu we employ 68 different types of kicks, wich resemble other styles but have a distinct energy.

You could say Bruce Lee was a mixed martial artist but did he moved like Chuck Norris??? Do you think Bruce got his cat like movement from karate or jiu jitsu??

Now don't get me wrong this isn't a chalenge seven star, You are more than welcome to vsit my Kwoon. I would love to have a friendly sparring match with you so I can show you why San Da has distinctive kung fu tech.


greencloud.net

[SevenStar]

Pat Smith is a kickboxer, but he's also a Tae Kwon Do practicioner. UFC 8 you forgot Gary "Big Daddy " Goodridge vs Paul Herrera. Goodridge is a kickboxer also, but was reppin for Kuk sool won, he even fought with the ksw gi on.

No I didn't. that was a scam that everyone knows about. The kuk sool won guys PAID him to say he trained kuk sool won. goodridge even admitted it himself. He trained there for like two weeks and they gave him a black belt, then paid him to say he trained kuk sool won. There is an article on sherdog about it where he admits to it.

As far as pat smith, I didn't forget him either. This thread was along the lines of pure tma, so that's all I listed. Smith claims his style to be kickboxing, not kickboxing and tkd.

[quickjab]

I didn't know that KSW paid Goodridge. Thats pathetic

[SevenStar]

Seven star, thank you for giving me the break down of who won what fights. Those guys that steped into the ring claiming to do kung fu were not kung fu guys.

have you ever noticed that whenever a kung fu guy loses, the cma world says "They weren't real kung fu guys"? When muay thai loses, we don't say "He wasn't a real muay thai guy" he just lost. big deal. but CMA guys always scrutinize - "look at his footwork; that's not CMA", "we don't attack like that - where is his fa jing?" "why doesn't he use his trapping?" that being the case, where are the real kung fu guys?


Know don't get me wrong, I know that you love BBJ and favor it, but it's not the end all beat all. It's just the flavor of the month.

actually I don't love bjj. I love judo and muay thai. I train bjj because I recognize the need for a good ground game. but recently, that's not my focus. I train bjj when I can. However, it's far from the flavor of the month. to be complete, you need ground work. that's something that's not going away soon, as we've seen over the past 12 years or so.


Of course Cung le has a wrestling back round, and that will only help him in the UFC. Altough as I stated what will make Cung a great fighter is His San Da training. Once again San Da is a CMA, In my statements obove I was defending San Da a modern form of Kung Fu, and that's a fact.

which is fine, but that is not the scope of this thread. The thread concerns what cung le in mma will do for cma. the answer is nothing, because cung is not a pure cma. it's that simple. Now, if he indeed was a pure cma, it would do quite a bit for the cma world.

And oh yea In Tae kwon do there is a different type of rythem to the kicking they do. It's usualy fast with multiple kicks, just because you saw kung throw a spinning back kick doesn't mean that it's automaticaly a Tae kwon do kick.

muay thai has a spinning back kick too, as do most styles. why would I think that?

In Kung Fu we employ 68 different types of kicks, wich resemble other styles but have a distinct energy.

once again, that's nothing unique.

You could say Bruce Lee was a mixed martial artist but did he moved like Chuck Norris??? Do you think Bruce got his cat like movement from karate or jiu jitsu??

I wouldn't call him mma at all. jkd philosophy is different from mma. In addition, bruce got his cat like movement from being an athlete. He was just naturally gifted. he didn't get that from 5 years of wing chun. Had he been a karate exponent, he would've had the same reflexes.

Now don't get me wrong this isn't a chalenge seven star, You are more than welcome to vsit my Kwoon. I would love to have a friendly sparring match with you so I can show you why San Da has distinctive kung fu tech.


That's cool. I've met several people from this forum. If I'm ever in the area, I'll drop you a line. As far as san da goes, I know it's different from muay thai though - that's not my point.

[SevenStar]

I didn't know that KSW paid Goodridge. Thats pathetic



'Gary Goodridge: Well, there was a Kuk Sool Won club in my area, and I told them I wanted to go into the UFC. They had a little 158 pound guy that wanted to go as well. They had a little donation thing to help this guy out too. Now, people are coming in to support the gym or whatever, giving change here and there trying to help this guy go to the UFC. I was thinking "This guy's 158 pounds!" And at the time, the UFC didnt have weight classes. He just wanted to go and try to beat up somebody. So, I'm 260, 275 lbs at the time, and I'm thinking, "You know, I could wrap this guy up into a pretzel and have him down on the grass sucking himself off in no time at all!" So I said "You know what, I'll beat up your boy, then I want all that money, and I'm going to the UFC!" So we had a little sparring session, and of course, I was on top of him all the time. I didn't know what do to, I was just on top of him. So we just wrestled around until we got tired.


Gary Goodridge celebrates after his win in the recent 2 Hot 2 Handle show.
So they said, "Are you goin to the UFC?" I said, "Yeah, I applied." They told me if I got in I could represent them, and they'd give me a 4th degree black belt. I said "No problem! I want it legal though, I want the paperwork." So they got me the paperwork for it from the Grand Pubah of Kuk Sool Won, from Korea, and he let me know I was the man. And about a month and 12 days later I was fighting in the UFC!

Sherdog.com: Wow, that's incredible. You wore the gi, was that part of the deal?

Gary Goodridge: I started training at the [Kook Sul Won] place about a month and a half before the UFC, and I started training in a gi, because Royce Gracie was in a gi. I was trying to assimilate what he was doing. My background was as a puncher, I'm a striker. I was trying to assimilate the gi, which was a far cry from what I should have done, but I didn't know that at the time. I thought "Hey, I'm a grappling expert!" So I went in the gi because thats all I had trained in.

Sherdog.com: So how long did you actually train that discipline?

Gary Goodridge: Kuk Sool Won? I may have trained a class or so.

Sherdog.com: Heh, so there was no Kuk Sool Won in the UFC huh?

Gary Goodridge: No.'


http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-28077.html

[yenhoi]

wow, 12 years in a month... and again, kung-fu is "special."

Anyone up for some stories about dead masters from a hundred of so years ago?

:confused:

[lkfmdc]

This thread is now officially retarded and I am afraid posting on it will lower my IQ, but I MUST state the bloody obvious

The UFC is not the world!

There are other events like the IVC... you know, in Brazil, ie also legit. In one IVC three members of the northern shaolin school, also members of Brazil's San Shou/San Da team, beat three Gracie Barra guys... KO's standing... there are other examples... not that it really matters but to derive "truth" from the early UFC's is a flawed premise at best

[Shaolindynasty]

I also heard Gordeau was not a savtate guy. He was a Kyokushin guy, he even has it tatooed on his arm. I suspect that allot of those early guys reped for styles they didn't train.

[metsubushi]

What a clusterfuk

[SevenStar]

This thread is now officially retarded and I am afraid posting on it will lower my IQ, but I MUST state the bloody obvious

The UFC is not the world!

There are other events like the IVC... you know, in Brazil, ie also legit. In one IVC three members of the northern shaolin school, also members of Brazil's San Shou/San Da team, beat three Gracie Barra guys... KO's standing... there are other examples... not that it really matters but to derive "truth" from the early UFC's is a flawed premise at best

whoa, gorilla man. read what he said - he mentioned that in early UFCs tma did pretty good. nothing more, nothing less. so now we have the first 8 or so UFCs stating how tma guys actually did.

Now, go back to swinging on vines and pounding your chest. :p

[lkfmdc]

The early UFC's are flawed at best. I'm not saying they were fixed, but Rorion Gacie did hand pick the contestants. He wanted "pure stylists" to prove his point and the promotion company then added in BS to hype the show... one thing can definitely be said, they did NOT pick the best well rounded fighters they could find...

Ever seen the first AFC in Russia? Done about the same time... sure, had a few beer gut old geezers and brawlers, but also had some guys with legit skills sets, combat sambo guys, cross trained guys etc...

Even the short lived EFC had better rounded athletes ... ever seen Paulson vs Hume? compared to similar period UFC matches :eek:

From my point of view, UFC proved a few basic CMA concepts, ie that you shouldn't be either a striker or a grappler, you need both. Sure did prove how effective elbows and head butts were. And, yes, showed many in TMA that they were not the deadly people they thought they were

[metsubushi]

I think TMA did wellin the early UFC's, because according to the current zeitgeist, Royce Gracie is not a Mixed Martial Artist(which is absolutely ridiculous) and won more than once thanks to the use of his Gi. And even though he beat other traditional guys like Keith Hackney and so forth, they landed some really good shots at times, and your average non professional fighter would not necessarily be able to weather the storm and score the takedown regardless. At the end of the day, those were fighters getting beat, not styles. No question, Royce's style played a huge part in his victories, it was something that his competitors weren't used to being up against, but as time goes on this isn't the case. He's exposed a weakness in the fight plan of most stand up fighters by taking them to an area they were unfamiliar with and beating them with his own tradition,. Which is really what any good fighter does, and now people are adapting to that by either implementing it into their own overall fight plan, or simply learning to defend against it by way of sprawls and so forth.

When Sakuraba destroys Royce Gracie with low kicks, that does not prove the superiority of kicking or catch wrestling, or whatever the ****. When Silva busted Sakuraba's shoulder with the slam, did that prove the superiority of BJJ or Muay Thai? Neither! You don't see alot of Gung Fu in the UFC, so what? What's that suppossed to prove? Will a win by a chinese martial artist suddenly validate(if they're considered invalid) chinese martial arts? Is old fashioned boxing now deemed useless because no boxers are MMA champions? That's beyond retarded. These arguments are full of people who are considering themselves successful by association(on all sides really), and outside of vain imaginations, that doesn't mean anything. The success of a Silva or Cro Cop is not transferrable to kickboxers the world over. The success of a Gracie is not transferrable to all BJJ students in the galaxy. They're professional fighters, you(in the general sense) probably aren't. They aren't validating systems, get real. They're proving their worth as individual fighters. Whoever connects with something significant will probably win, no style in the world guarantees you that significant shot. You aren't going to win fights just because you train in the same system as a celebrity. Whether it's Wanderlei Silva, Royce Gracie, Ernesto Hoost, Cung Le, or Li Shu Wen.

[SevenStar]

I think TMA did wellin the early UFC's, because according to the current zeitgeist, Royce Gracie is not a Mixed Martial Artist(which is absolutely ridiculous) and won more than once thanks to the use of his Gi.

If you ask royce (I have) he will tell you that he is not an mma. He doesn't crosstrain in striking. He is a bjj guy that enters mma competitions.

At the end of the day, those were fighters getting beat, not styles.

that's never really been in question. But on a whole, TMA guys do more losing than winning. To kickboxing, bjj and muay thai. that's where the style part started coming in. Why were the sport guys winning and the TMA losing? their training methods.

You don't see alot of Gung Fu in the UFC, so what? What's that suppossed to prove? Will a win by a chinese martial artist suddenly validate(if they're considered invalid) chinese martial arts?

honestly, I think more people would be prone to train cma if cma were doing well in competitions. It would also bring it more into the public eye because more of them would begin competing.

Is old fashioned boxing now deemed useless because no boxers are MMA champions?

several mma crosstrain boxing. Two off the top of my head are goodridge and buentello. goodridge was the national boxing champ in canada. both have been championship contenders in mma.

[lkfmdc]

If you ask royce (I have) he will tell you that he is not an mma. He doesn't crosstrain in striking.



I'm sure that's what he says, but it isn't true :rolleyes: He has a kickboxing coach he works regularly with and in the old Torrance days they had a boxing trainer.

[metsubushi]

If you ask royce (I have) he will tell you that he is not an mma. He doesn't crosstrain in striking. He is a bjj guy that enters mma competitions.



Yet he's quick to bring up his black belt in Karate and his kickboxing training when someone says he's one dimensional or outdated.

that's never really been in question. But on a whole, TMA guys do more losing than winning. To kickboxing, bjj and muay thai. that's where the style part started coming in. Why were the sport guys winning and the TMA losing? their training methods.


See, like I said before, that's one hell of a big grey area to me. Bjj and Muay Thai are traditional as far as I'm concerned. They use the same training methods and techniques they've been using for decades/ hundreds of years. As far as why the sport guys were winning and the other guys weren't. I can't say that I have deep knowledge on the training methods of all traditional strikers who have ever entered the UFC. Am I suppossed to assume that they didn't spar? Why? Royce's style was older and more traditional than all of the western kickboxers he faced and those kicboxers fought full contact quite often. He beat them just like he beat the "forms guys"(if the 'forms exclusive' guys even existed). So the idea that they didn't spar or train realistically is absurd to me.

I think they lost because they were up against the better(at least that night and in that arena) man. They were in his house, fighting on his terms, against a way of fighting that they hadn't encountered much, if at all. Royce is from a fighting family, they weren't. Royce made them play his game. While it was harder for them to make him play their game, because his style wasn't something they encountered often. For them, it was similar to the confusion a righty suffers when facing a southpaw. Fighting stand up guys is what he did, and had been doing for a long time.

He didn't force them to play his game because of BJJ alone. He did that because of his family, his pride, and his mental toughness. He could take some shots before the takedown, whereas some of the other Gracie guys can't do that as well(like Cesar Vs Shamrock). There are tons of reasons the UFC guys lost, but chief among them, is they were outclassed. All of the conjecture about their fantasies and unrealistic training methods holds no ground with me. Look at other tournaments like K-1. Karate guys stand up to kickboxers just fine. As far as the big picture, who cares what happened to random Karate guy #4 and Random TKD/Kickboxer #7 in the early UFC. Those guys weren't the saviors of their systems or anything like that. They're just fighters who lost some matches. People lose, big deal.

honestly, I think more people would be prone to train cma if cma were doing well in competitions. It would also bring it more into the public eye because more of them would begin competing.


I agree with this, but honestly, popularity stinks.


several mma crosstrain boxing. Two off the top of my head are goodridge and buentello. goodridge was the national boxing champ in canada. both have been championship contenders in mma.

Yeah, but is Goodridge really a boxer? Helllllllll no lol. He's a heavy hitter, plain and simple. He's a heck of a knock out artist, but his idea of a combination is dropping his hands and throwing rapid fire haymakers. If boxing gave him anything, it's conditioning and the idea of a target(chin). It works for him though, no question.

[SevenStar]

I'm sure that's what he says, but it isn't true :rolleyes: He has a kickboxing coach he works regularly with and in the old Torrance days they had a boxing trainer.


do you know to what extent it was though? his striking leaves a lot to be desired, but I have seen few who can roll with a punch as well as he can...

[SevenStar]

See, like I said before, that's one hell of a big grey area to me. Bjj and Muay Thai are traditional as far as I'm concerned. They use the same training methods and techniques they've been using for decades/ hundreds of years. As far as why the sport guys were winning and the other guys weren't. I can't say that I have deep knowledge on the training methods of all traditional strikers who have ever entered the UFC. Am I suppossed to assume that they didn't spar? Why? Royce's style was older and more traditional than all of the western kickboxers he faced and those kicboxers fought full contact quite often. He beat them just like he beat the "forms guys"(if the 'forms exclusive' guys even existed). So the idea that they didn't spar or train realistically is absurd to me.

yeah, very grey. Different people have different definitions of what is traditional and what is modern. However, muay thai didn't exist in the form that we know before the 1920's so I wouldn't call it traditional in any sense. By the same token, I don't really consider TKD as traditional, even though they wear gi's, work forms, etc. BUT, because of what they do, I do lump them in the traditional category... very grey...

as for bjj, it came from judo. judo guys sparred plenty, which is what aided them in defeating the jjj guys in various competitions. the idea of sparring likely would've carried over to bjj. On the same token, it's no secret that exponents like funakoshi were against adding sparring to their curriculums, as they thought it would water down the system. So no, not all of the more traditional types sparred. and not all do to this day, although I'm betting that it's more of a rarity now.

I think they lost because they were up against the better(at least that night and in that arena) man. They were in his house, fighting on his terms, against a way of fighting that they hadn't encountered much, if at all. Royce is from a fighting family, they weren't. Royce made them play his game. While it was harder for them to make him play their game, because his style wasn't something they encountered often. For them, it was similar to the confusion a righty suffers when facing a southpaw. Fighting stand up guys is what he did, and had been doing for a long time.

I don't disagree with that.

Karate guys stand up to kickboxers just fine.

aren't most of them kyokushin - the system that not only is known for fighting a lot, but has thai influence after oyama traveled to thailand?

As far as the big picture, who cares what happened to random Karate guy #4 and Random TKD/Kickboxer #7 in the early UFC. Those guys weren't the saviors of their systems or anything like that. They're just fighters who lost some matches. People lose, big deal.


I completely agree. I just think it's odd how you hear "they weren't real TMA guys anyway"... they lost. Don't make an excuse for it. in the grand scheme of things, life goes on.

[SimonM]

See, like I said before, that's one hell of a big grey area to me. Bjj and Muay Thai are traditional as far as I'm concerned.

I was about to say that but metsubushi beat me to the punch. I agree. BJJ and MT are not in any way non-TMA except that people who do these arts like to cultivate an air of superiority to "outdated" TMAs.

[SevenStar]

No. muay thai, bjj, tkd... they are all less than 100 years old. they are really not traditional at all. I mentioned above why they get lumped into the traditional category. judo really isn't traditional either. Also, what they wear, how they train, the fact that they are used in sportive format... These are all reasons why they are not considered traditional. Now, age wise, boxing and wrestling would be quite traditional, but sportive format and method of training throws them into the modern group as well. It really has nothing to do with proving superiority. Hell, the record books do all the proving, regardless of whether or not it's labeled modern.

[SimonM]

No. muay thai, bjj, tkd... they are all less than 100 years old. they are really not traditional at all. I mentioned above why they get lumped into the traditional category. judo really isn't traditional either. Also, what they wear, how they train, the fact that they are used in sportive format... These are all reasons why they are not considered traditional. Now, age wise, boxing and wrestling would be quite traditional, but sportive format and method of training throws them into the modern group as well. It really has nothing to do with proving superiority. Hell, the record books do all the proving, regardless of whether or not it's labeled modern.

Awh, come on, no martial art has stayed static for even 50 years. Muay Thai may have changed in the last century but it still existed in some form prior.

[SevenStar]

Awh, come on, no martial art has stayed static for even 50 years. Muay Thai may have changed in the last century but it still existed in some form prior.


what it existed as is irrelevant. it wasn't muay thai. now, the older versions - muay chaiya, muay lon lon, etc. yeah, I would consider them traditional. but they were not muay thai. muay thai emerged in the 1920's.

[Shaolindynasty]

By definition an art is tradtitional if it is passed from one person to another.

A style could have been created in the 1980's but if it is passed to the next generation it is then traditional.

Training methods or willingness to compete don't enter into the picture.

[Shaolinlueb]

wait, wait, wait...
Did you just say that stand up lacks in MMA? Have you watched a Wanderlei Silva fight? I could swore that Pride was MMA... I could swore he beats the tar out of his opponents standing up, not submits them.

I mean, I could be wrong....


seem i dont see pride in the same lime light as ufc. pride is so much better. lol but yeah it is um mma i guess.

[Shaolinlueb]

The early UFC's are flawed at best. I'm not saying they were fixed, but Rorion Gacie did hand pick the contestants. He wanted "pure stylists" to prove his point and the promotion company then added in BS to hype the show... one thing can definitely be said, they did NOT pick the best well rounded fighters they could find...

From my point of view, UFC proved a few basic CMA concepts, ie that you shouldn't be either a striker or a grappler, you need both. Sure did prove how effective elbows and head butts were. And, yes, showed many in TMA that they were not the deadly people they thought they were

shoot. i hate agreeing with coach ross and dont like to seem like a butt kisser, but pretty much is a good arguement. and with the other statement up top you made is good too.

[metsubushi]

what it existed as is irrelevant. it wasn't muay thai. now, the older versions - muay chaiya, muay lon lon, etc. yeah, I would consider them traditional. but they were not muay thai. muay thai emerged in the 1920's.


So did Shotokan, and that's often seen as traditional. Same for Goju Ryu. Besides, I see no reason for the idea of tradition to be limited to a one hundred year time frame. Ideas from the 20's aren't exactly modern. Today's boxing, muay thai, wrestling, etc are just safer offshoots of older traditions that have become our traditions thanks to cultural exchange. What about freestyle wrestling in the UFC? That's old as hell. Besides, according to this (http://www.gracieacademy.com/generations.html) The Gracies are all about tradition. BJJ isn't traditional Judo of course, but the Gracie stuff is traditional Gracie. As usual, cultural exchange sparked new traditions.

[SevenStar]

So did Shotokan, and that's often seen as traditional. Same for Goju Ryu. Besides, I see no reason for the idea of tradition to be limited to a one hundred year time frame. Ideas from the 20's aren't exactly modern. Today's boxing, muay thai, wrestling, etc are just safer offshoots of older traditions that have become our traditions thanks to cultural exchange. What about freestyle wrestling in the UFC? That's old as hell. Besides, according to this (http://www.gracieacademy.com/generations.html) The Gracies are all about tradition. BJJ isn't traditional Judo of course, but the Gracie stuff is traditional Gracie. As usual, cultural exchange sparked new traditions.

I stated earlier that boxing and wrestling are traditional, but trained in a modern fashion and used in sportive format. that is why they are typically thrown into the modern category. you're correct about shotokan and goju - but neither of those are considered koryu styles... they technically are not traditional either. It's their training methods and characteristics that throw it into the traditional category.

as far as bjj having tradition, that doesn't make it a traditional style, IMO. And muay thai is full of tradition.

[metsubushi]

well, I dunno. I think that if I can go train BJJ in Rio De janeiro and then go train it in Milwaukee and learn pretty much the same thing, then clearly, to me anyway, someone is establishing or has established a tradition. But at the end of the day, whatever, traditional or modern doesn't really matter to me. I see opponents from either background as equally threatening. If some crazy Wing Chun guy spears my eye, I'm fu**ed. If a good ground based MMA dude catches me with a tight RNC, I'm probably fu**ed too.

[quickjab]

Harold Howard was also a karate guy and he beat the Muay Thai guy with striking. My argument is that you said the TMA's got owned and Muay Thai didn't. According to what you've listed, in UFC's 1-8 Muay Thai went 1-2. How is that SO MUCH better than TMA's? Now, I'm not a Muay Thai hater, nor am I a TMA lover. But Muay Thai DIDN'T do much better than TMA's.

[quickjab]

Also you said "Delucia vs. Baker - Delucia wins by tapout (strikes) - bjj/kung fu beat kung fu using bjj". I've never seen that fight, so explain to me how he won using BJJ by striking.

[Fallout]

We can say San shou is an effective Chinese martial art. But that doesn't make your average wing chun school bad ass. Just as your average TKD school isn't bad ass based on the success of Cung Le either.

And yes. Horald howard was a karate guy that KO'd a Muay thai guy.

[Fallout]

A more fun argument would be which style sucks more? wing chung or TKD?


I say TKD has the sparring advantage, but wing chun at least keeps their hands up..... it's a tuff call.

[SevenStar]

Harold Howard was also a karate guy and he beat the Muay Thai guy with striking. My argument is that you said the TMA's got owned and Muay Thai didn't. According to what you've listed, in UFC's 1-8 Muay Thai went 1-2. How is that SO MUCH better than TMA's? Now, I'm not a Muay Thai hater, nor am I a TMA lover. But Muay Thai DIDN'T do much better than TMA's.


and in those, there were like two thai boxers. there were more tma guys. So, overall, who was the biggest loser? Then mo showed the effectiveness of thai leg kicks and everyone flocked to it. Once again, overall, who is the biggest loser?

I'm not a TMA hater either - I started in TMA. but in this venue, muay thai and grappling are the dominant combination for a reason, obviously.

[SevenStar]

Also you said "Delucia vs. Baker - Delucia wins by tapout (strikes) - bjj/kung fu beat kung fu using bjj". I've never seen that fight, so explain to me how he won using BJJ by striking.

typo. the bjj/kung fu guy beat kung fu. unless the tapout was due to GnP...

[Merryprankster]

Wow were my comments totally taken out of context (until 7* didn't).

Green Cloud;

I'm not saying that Cung Le doesn't train Kung Fu. What I said was really simple:

He doesn't have a straight CMA background. Because of that, his winning isn't going to do anything for CMA. It's not going to do anything for CMA for two reasons:

1. His other arts have informed his fighting.

2. Anybody who is dumb enough to dismiss his San Da experience will say that he just got his hands from boxing, used his wrestling takedowns and a couple of kicks he picked up from TKD and Muay Thai, and some submissions from BJJ.

Me? I say it's all of the above. But he's not a pure CMAist and never will be.

[quickjab]

I don't think ANYBODY, even TKD'ers would refer to Cung Le as a TKD'er. My problem with the whole TMA-MMA kinda argument is that when a TMA guy cross trains and has some success, everyone dismisses their TMA background. That what will most likely happen to Cung Le.
What I hope happens is that If he is successful, it will

A) Inspire TMA dojos, dojangs and kwoons to get more involved with full contact tournaments and encourage sparring.

B) Expose San Da/San Shou to the masses. Most people I know have NEVER heard of San da. And these are people who have been into combat sports for years.

C) Help the CMA community embrace San Da. Alot of Kung Fu people, for whatever reason, don't support it.

[Green Cloud]

Thank you for responding MP, I understand your point that why I responded by saying what ever you guys say. I knew this argument is futile, but every time I try to get out they pull me back in.

Here is my point in my early years I studied several Japanese and korean styles, and yes understanding these systems does give me an atvantage.

At the end of the day I'm still a Kung Fu practitioner. For example I learned how to throw lots of fancy kicks in Tae kwon do and my kicking ability was great. I still throw pretty much the same tech except now they have a different energy and even a different porpous.

MP watch a kung fu person throw a jump cresent kick his leg is never chambered but extended with follow through. Now a Tae kwon do practioner will throw the same cresent kick but they will chamber it first like a front snap kick.

Both kicks are jump inside crescent kicks exept for the fact that they are thrown with a different flavor. I'm sorry if I am going on a tangent here but if you watch Kung Le's fight he has a certain energy that he puts into his kicks for instance when you watch his fight he throws a spining back kick and he misses. Watch his landing, he drops into a fuk fu sik ( tiger subduing stance). This is done for follow through in kung fu. In tae kwon do we rechamber immediatly after throwing a spinning back kick.

Here's my question Do you think after 20 some odd years of doing San Shou (San Da) do you think he still resembers how to move like a Tae kwon do guy?? I certainly can't, my movement is Kung Fu even though I hold black belts in both Tae Kwon Do and Jiu Jitsu, not to mention a third dan in Go Ju. If you ask me to demo these styles I couldn't fake it.


I get your point and 7*'s point, will Cung Le's debut help CMA??? probably not. But I remain hopefull, but the fact is the producers of the UFC are pro MMA. Hopefuly Cung won't sell out. 7* wants to know where the real kung fu guys are well I'm one of them and:mad: I WILL NEVER SELL OUT!!!

Unless I get a Phat contract on TV;)


greencloud.net

[Green Cloud]

Well said quikjab

[Green Cloud]

It's funny quickjab if you check out the san shou gone bad thread I say the very same thing.

[htowndragon]

if you think about it

San Shou was created for the military in china. It was created due to an exchange and cross training of different techniques and "what worked" in that venue. or maybe it was ininitially to come up with a quickier way to train soldiers in the army. anyway, it was no longer "distinct" kung fu styles, it just became "San shou/san da". = chinese mma.

i think pretty soon their not gonna have any "i train muay thai for striking, bjj/sambo/grceo for ground fighting, etc. etc. and i do mma", i think pretty soon tis gonna be pretty lumped together as a system on its own.

[CaptinPickAxe]

seem i dont see pride in the same lime light as ufc. pride is so much better. lol but yeah it is um mma i guess.


You're absolutely right... UFC is for college kids, surly old timers, and overwieght brawlers. I equate it to this:

UFC= more mayhem than method
Pride=more method than mayhem

[ShaolinTiger00]

i think pretty soon their not gonna have any "i train muay thai for striking, bjj/sambo/grceo for ground fighting, etc. etc. and i do mma", i think pretty soon tis gonna be pretty lumped together as a system on its own.

The compartmentalized thinking is a thing of the past and people who are training in muay thai on M,W,F and BJJ on T, TH are missing the most important aspect of training.

Integration of skills.

Train MMA on M,T, W, TH, F so that you know how to grapple while being struck, strike when being grappled etc.

[SevenStar]

I don't think ANYBODY, even TKD'ers would refer to Cung Le as a TKD'er. My problem with the whole TMA-MMA kinda argument is that when a TMA guy cross trains and has some success, everyone dismisses their TMA background. That what will most likely happen to Cung Le.
What I hope happens is that If he is successful, it will

A) Inspire TMA dojos, dojangs and kwoons to get more involved with full contact tournaments and encourage sparring.

B) Expose San Da/San Shou to the masses. Most people I know have NEVER heard of San da. And these are people who have been into combat sports for years.

C) Help the CMA community embrace San Da. Alot of Kung Fu people, for whatever reason, don't support it.


who is dismissing it? we all agree he trained CMA - that is not in question. What I am saying is because he's not a pure CMA, it will not do any miracle for the CMA world, as it asked in the title of this thread.

even though delucia trained bjj and now aikido supposedly, I STILL think of him as a kung fu guy...but he's not a pure kung fu guy. his success won't do anything for the CMA world as a whole.

[SevenStar]

but the fact is the producers of the UFC are pro MMA.


they are pro $$$. I bet they would love to get cma and other styles back into the ufc. Can you imagine all the promotion around that?

[Green Cloud]

seven star you are living in a fantasy. The problem with kung fu is that it's not marketable. Look at martal arts catalogs like century they sell very few CMA supplies.

Pay attention CMA is not main stream it's rare compared to other style 10 to 1. That's the problem that and Kung Fu people are rather snobish and tend to only want to associate with there own kind.

Hanen't you ever been to china town they have no need for anyone else. They just don't care to live in this world.



greencloud.net

[htowndragon]

thats true.

i grew up in houstons chinatown, plus im taiwanese-american.

chinese people stick with their own kind for the most part.

[metsubushi]

I don't know, I don't think he has to be "pure" to benefit CMA or KMA or whatever. Purity doesn't matter, and it's pretty much a myth. I don't think he'll have too much of an effect, but it's more than possible that he'll get a few people into San Shou competitions, which are chinese.

[SevenStar]

seven star you are living in a fantasy. The problem with kung fu is that it's not marketable. Look at martal arts catalogs like century they sell very few CMA supplies.

Pay attention CMA is not main stream it's rare compared to other style 10 to 1. That's the problem that and Kung Fu people are rather snobish and tend to only want to associate with there own kind.

Hanen't you ever been to china town they have no need for anyone else. They just don't care to live in this world.



greencloud.net

kung fu is very marketable in the mma world. Why? because people would be highly interested in seeing a tma kick tail. They would love to see these kung fu snobs kick butt using nothing but cma. we're not talking about MA catalogs... you keep veering off topic. stay on the path, my son...

[SevenStar]

I don't know, I don't think he has to be "pure" to benefit CMA or KMA or whatever. Purity doesn't matter, and it's pretty much a myth. I don't think he'll have too much of an effect, but it's more than possible that he'll get a few people into San Shou competitions, which are chinese.

purity matters in this case, and it's not necessarily a myth. Sure, his cma may be a mix of various chinese styles, making it "impure" per se, but it would be fully chinese, so he would still be a "pure" chinese stylist.

If what he did was completely chinese, more people would be interested in chinese arts, just for the fact that he's winning with them. Look at what UFC did for bjj and muay thai - they caught on like wild fire. Something similar would happen for kung fu if there were repeated victories in well known venues.

[quickjab]

It can't be PURE CMA. A for a CMA guy to be successfull in MMA, he would have to cross train in subgrappling. His striking could be pure CMA.

[quickjab]

A pure Muay Thai guy wouldn't be able to be successfull in today's MMA game either. Look how quick Kit Kope got schooled.

[SevenStar]

you know what I meant. But you will not see that anytime soon either. If you do, it will dramatically help cma's exposure in the mma world.

However, there is dog boxing and other cma ground grappling, no? so, theoretically, you CAN be pure cma.

[Green Cloud]

The Dao of Seven Star, listen up son CMA are 30 years behind even today. CMA will have it's day with more schools and more people doing it eventualy it will find it's way. MMA is just the flavor of the month here today gone tomorow.

I am trying very hard to get kung fu promoters to establish full contact rules in there tournaments, the problem is insurance and most kung fu schools don't have the kind of money or backing to create venues like the UFC.

greencloud.net

[ShaolinTiger00]

Why don't you just grow a pair and have your guys compete in MMA events?:confused:

[metsubushi]

purity matters in this case, and it's not necessarily a myth. Sure, his cma may be a mix of various chinese styles, making it "impure" per se, but it would be fully chinese, so he would still be a "pure" chinese stylist.

Eh, I don't think people will really research whether he's a "pure" chinese stylist or not. Stuff like that is for forums like this. I say it's a myth because I can't imagine any fighter making a definite choice to train exclusively in styles from one region. The early UFC's were mentioned before, and people like Pat Smith and Mo smith probably got people to look at kickboxing, even though neither of them were "pure" kickboxers. Both had backgrounds in Tae Kwon Do. And what about Jason Delucia, his Five Animal style replaces Leopard with Mantis blended with tae kwon Do,uses Japanese Terminology, and he teaches "Combat Aikido" yet he somehow represents Gung Fu. @_@ MMA gets people into BJJ regardless of whether the fighters are pure BJJ guys or not. They can be Sambo and BJJ, or whatever mixture you can imagine,and what people will investigate is what the commentator makes note of. Then they'll study whatever the instructors of the schools they visit convinces them to study. Anyway, I'm talking in circles. So I believe that if the announcers mention San Shou or any Chinese martial art, then whoever is impressed by Cung will probably look into San Shou or whatever Chinese Martial Art.

[Green Cloud]

Why don't you just grow a pair and have your guys compete in MMA events?:confused:
Ahhm we do mostly San Da events, unfortunately I don't know of to many amature UFC events. But we are slowly venturing in that direction. One thing at a time right now it's san da.

[WanderingMonk]

Ahhm we do mostly San Da events, unfortunately I don't know of to many amature UFC events. But we are slowly venturing in that direction. One thing at a time right now it's san da.

yes, get some sanda experience under your guys' belts.

but, incidentally, isn't your kung-fu brother, Sifu Ross and Ventura starting a MMA league soon? That can be venue when your guys are ready.

[Green Cloud]

Thats where we are headed, anything Ross does Especialy Ventura they know I'm all for it. I have always supported my training brothers and I am Verry proud of the fact that they have the Cohones to let the public know that CMA is a force that needs to be respected.


greencloud.net