Waist Chop- Jam Yue help

[Paul T England]

Hi,

I have been playing with the waist chop from seven stars stance and was wondering how everyone else applies it.

I find it easier to do if I am closer to the other person but that means that when they fall they go over my knee which seems/feels a bit risky on my knee. Not as much of a problem with the ma bo/Deng Shan Bo waist chop as my knee is in a strnger position.

I am guessing that the answer is obvious and the 7 star stance should be done a foot range rather than knee range?

Paul

[Oso]

I'm still basically just learning Beng Bu but I'll take a stab at this.


It seems as if you are relatively close. Not hip to hip close but like knee to knee close with the other end being ankle to ankle close. I think you DO want them to go over the knee because if you are ankle to ankle in this move then you are over-extended as you try to chop the waist and could get countered more easily by being pulled forward at that point.

also, given that TO ME, it seems as if the hook stance is not used dynamically in this application. I feel like you are sneaking the hook in to act as a post to trip them over with the pull of the arm and the chop to the waist. SO, in that instance, it would be easier for them to just empty step out and back if you are just ankle to ankle.

just my novice thoughts....

[Three Harmonies]

For any kind of throw/takedown you MUST be as close as possible. The more surface area the more power/leverage you will have. It is also essential that the "chopping" arm be taken all the way across the tripping leg/foot. This will ensure they do not land on your knee. In our Meihua we execute this technique (usually) from a Small Mountain Climbing Stance, so the knee is bent. In this manner one can also bring their opponent down on top of the knee causing severe injury to the spine and back.
I had the hardest time trying to apply such techniques for a long time. That is because at first I was taught to be at what you are calling "foot distance." Once you close the gap and get tight, this is **** near effortless.
I will most likely be teaching my seminar at the MQ conference in Vegas on this specific technique and showing variations on a theme so to speak. Hope you can make it and share your ideas with me and the rest of the Mantis junkies!
Cheers
Jake :D

[Paul T England]

Thanks for your toughts guys, that makes sense Jake, also I feel I naturally want to use hill climbing etc instead of 7 stars stance. Good point though with the chopping hand.

On a similar note why do you think its called waist chopping? Is it because of the strike or because of the fact that the throw breaks the persons structure? Or maybe something else

I wish I could make vegas but the UK is a long way away. Good luck and I hope to attend a mantis event or two in the future.

Paul

[-N-]

I find it easier to do if I am closer to the other person but that means that when they fall they go over my knee which seems/feels a bit risky on my knee. Not as much of a problem with the ma bo/Deng Shan Bo waist chop as my knee is in a strnger position.

I am guessing that the answer is obvious and the 7 star stance should be done a foot range rather than knee range?lIf you do the 7 star waist chop at knee range, your quadriceps(vastus medialis) connects and applies force according to jim nim tiep kao. It is dynamic and springy rather than static or crashing. Combined with the upper body force in the opposite direction, you create a scissoring effect so the person flies/pops over your knee rather than falling on it.

N.

[Three Harmonies]

I believe it is named Waist Chop because in the form you are actually chopping with your right hand, at the waist level. Of course the application can be done pretty much anywhere on the side of the body depending on your desired effect.
Cheers
Jake :)

[Michael Dasargo]

Hi Paul,

7 Star stance, in my experience, is not used as a "throw" or "takedown", but used in conjunction with bumping or chopping Palm to the opponents flank (medial/posterior deltiod) to disrupt the opponents center followed by a hook punch. The idea is to abruptly shift the opponents shoulders and head past his hips, then use your fist to reposition the opponents head in the opposite direction. (very similar to how Wing Chun boxers attack the flank before centerline blasting)

ie, if right hand is grabbing, opponent falls to your right, follow up with a right hook punch, causing opponent to "fall on your fist".

The 7 Star stance, from what my teacher taught me, is a posture that you never "freeze" in, but transition into a follow up. That is to say that the technique is not the finish, but the middle technique just after the bridge.

The 7 Star stance would be number 3 in the following sequence:

1. Distract
2. bridge and mislead
3. disrupt opponents posture
4. tenderize
5. Throw or Qin Na

In almost every set, the 7 Star Chop is followed by Huan Chui-Beng Chui sequence. The 7 Star stance sets puts the rear leg in flexion allowing the posture to be catapulted into the monkey step that immediately follows.

Hope it helps!
M.Dasargo

PS
I could be completely wrong

[Oso]

saw a lot of things this past weekend that employed the same mechanical idea of crossing the opponent's body for the throw.

I've posted elsewhere before about a system of looking at the balance points in the body and how any throw generally affects at least two of these directly:

Head
Shoulders
Hips
Knees
Ankles

It seems as if mantis likes to throw by crossing the body up by primarily attacking shoulder and then knee or ankle.

???? thoughts?

[Oso]

LMAO, great caveat at the end there Michael...prompting a new sig for me. ;)

[mantis108]

Well, I don't think the waist chop (especially the one with the hooking leg) is meant to be a be all end all type of technique. This is to say that there should be a plan B, a follow up like Michael said. BTW, Greater 7 stars line terminology is not necessarily the same as the Greater Meihwa Line's counterpart. So... At the core they are essentially the same thing but there are nunances that also make them different.

Controlling the top (by crossing the hands) is a way of breaking the balance and is similar in concept to Judo's Kuzushi. Just a thought.

Mantis108

[Oso]

Controlling the top (by crossing the hands) is a way of breaking the balance and is similar in concept to Judo's Kuzushi. Just a thought.

Mantis108

that's what I was getting at. the system I refer to was taught to me by a jujitsu teacher about 9 years ago. I have yet to see a throw in any style that couldn't be described using it.

[Davemantis]

Hi
I don’t find it gets to my knee???? i find it Quicker using the 7 star stance than the any of the others but I find I get more power from the ma bo???

I tend to think of it in a similar way to Michael dasargo and mantis108 I don’t go looking for the take down if it happens it happens but as they are falling/ losing balance I follow up with the punch.

I have seen many people pulling the opponents hand towards the side of there own body.
I find if you take the hand towards your body the opponent will not go down as easy and they can counter but if you take it across there body I find it easier and harder for them to counter.

Question has the height of the person doing the waist chop got any relevance I know someone that finds it easy to apply and he is a little shorter:D that his opponents?????????? come to think of it he Prefers the ma bo to the 7 star stance

Dave

[monkeyfoot]

Hey guys

There was a huge discussion on the board a few months back about this particular technique.....especially the point of chopping to the waist and why/how effective it actually is.

I find that the best way to use this is to make sure the lead leg is held deep across the opponents body. A lot of people play this application really high and I feel that too high a stance limits its effectiveness.

I think it can be played in many ways.
It can be used as a trip/takedown with emphasis put on the pulling hand with a waist chop for assitance.
Some people focus on the actual chopping to the waist as a means of internal injury (was main discussion of other thread).
Like mentioned above, it can be played as a means of upsetting the opponents center, so you can redirect the energy downwards, to then follow with a devastating strike in the opposite direction.

really interesting topic

craig

[SunRooster]

The waist chop is risky and sometimes ackward. Its useful in the sense that you end up in positions were it is quite useful. Note to self: the wrist of the other hand is being held secure the reason I say this is for a simple reason if it does take you to the ground for some reason unknown, you are in good position to switch to a Japeness kamora (Maybe someone knows the Chinese name for that lock) hold. At least till things settle back down. Waist chops are very close and sensitive acts. If you feel there waist it means your close and you can register there center fairly well. Close also means the ground is now a issue. This is not to be done without a serious dedication to the act its not something you can go into lightly. I have found more often then not I dont lead into a action intending a waist chop but have found myself in position where it is the most useful technique so I believe it should be practiced. Awarness of the hands and waist are key points in any transaction. Knowledge of what it feels like in that position are great tools. You will find yourself falling into those positions alot when training.As far as the stance I believe its a transitional step from the Seven star hook to a more solid Knee over toe Start from right behind the ankle with seven star stance Transfer wieght with feeling dont give yourself away. :cool: a student with thoughts

[tonglongtodei]

I really like this specific technique. A few things that I have found to help me in the actual application of it are not moving in to perform the technique, but allowing the opponent to attack where you yield right into position for this throw. Its not so much pulling the arm of the opponent as it is yielding and letting his/her attack continue and empty. The pull is just after the attack empties. Also, switching from a waist chop to the shoulder or even right above the elbow can help catch their center and even help to stop their yielding out of it (by bending the elbow). I do it in the 7 star stance but the emphasis is not on the knee or leg as much as it is yielding the upper body to allow the attacker to empty and expose their own center. This makes it much easier and even effortless to throw them after they have given me their own center. Its all in the waist.

Just a few thoughts I have had.

[Young Mantis]

In my opinion, the most important aspect of effectively using this technique is in the timing of each part. The waist chop - "yiu dzahm" in our school has three distinct motions: the pull, the step (hooking leg), the strike. We perform this technique in that order and the time in between is very short, almost instantaneous but not quite.

The pull is cross body. I say pull but it should be very dynamic, almost more like a jerk or yank with a follow through. When the arm is first pulled, the opponent should feel off balance. Immediately and without thought, the opponent will naturally step his front leg in the direction of the pull to readjust his balance. It is that instant when the body is leaning and the balance is starting to go off center and before the leg can make that step that your own hooking leg should step forward preventing the opponents front leg from re-establishing balance which leads into the trip/takedown/fall.

Some people in the beginning can't get this timing right and overcompensate with the strike turning it more into a push. Try practicing just parts 1 and 2 without the use of the strike to take the person down. When you can do this, then you can focus the strike as a strike and not a push to throw the person off balance. Even if the opponent is quick enough to pick up his leg and recover without falling, he is so out of position that you should be able to follow up with the aforementioned circular punch - "huern chui".

It is named waist chop because that is the target of the strike, the person's waist area although it can be anywhere along the side. I agree that if all you want to do is take the person down, striking at the shoulder makes the throw much easier because the leverage is better, like a lever and a fulcrum. But striking the shoulder does little harm so if you need to inflict damage, aim anywhere from the ribs to the kidneys.

I have found that against taller opponents, I prefer the bow stance. It offers more stability and strength and the position of my bent knee is still lower that his which is a better fulcrum position. But that also depends on my distance with the opponent. Close=7 star, far=bow.

Vance

[spiralstair]

Hi Guys,
Many years ago I was challenged at my Massachusetts school by a Tae Kwon Do instructor that said he had heard my students 'bragging' at a party.
He walked in unannounced in the middle of the afternoon, in the middle of my practice time, and said he wanted to 'spar'. O.K., no problem. His first few techniques were thrown about halfway between friendly and serious on the intent to create pain scale.

Before he came in I had been working on Wah Lum's version of 'waist chop' so I went with it just as he threw a very high side kick off his front foot. Three things happened at once. His kicking foot ended up on top of my grabbing hand as I entered, I 'chopped' his head since he was bent over from throwing the high kick, and he fell hard on his upper back over my hill climbing stance. End of session. He got up slow, we shook hands, and he left. I was left with a renewed appreciation of the adaptability of mantis techniques. And I'm not a brawler.;)
Have a good weekend

[K.Brazier]

It is time to bring this thread back as I have finished writing an article on the waist chop.

http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/waist%20chop.htm

Kevin

[MonkeyKingUSA]

Nice article Kevin! Very Thorough!

[monkeyfoot]

Excellent article Kevin, I cant believe I haven't come across your site before!
(I read the whole lot - the high/low attacking article was really good)

Anyways, as much as I can see peoples reasoning on performing the waist-chop in the hill-climbing stance, I cant see that it would be superior to using the 7* stance. Lets say I am fighting in 'hill climbing' and I 'hook, grapple, pluck' the attacking right straight punch. My right strike is then defended by a 'kwa', so I slip my grappling hand under and up to grasp the 'blocking arm' in preparation for the waist chop.
As soon as I contact the blocking arm I shift back into a 7* stance and simultaneously pull the opponents left arm across my body/7* leg.

As mentioned before, the whole idea is disrupting the opponents center of balance etc. The shift back into the 7* stance emphasizes this principle more than the hill-climbing does as the opponent is pulled further forward/off his center of balance.

IMO - could be wrong :)

craig

[sspm]

Yes It is a very good article. Nice of you to be open and honest and sharing. That is the true spirit of kung fu.









Todd

[Redfish]

@monkeyfoot

You can use the waist chop principle from 7* or Hill Climbing stance, just depending on the situation. They are both in Beng Bu also. Not better or worse, just different.

I'm talking about halfway through the second road of Beng Bu. You can check the Lin Bo Yan Beng Bu thread to see the video of our family Beng Bu (LGY), also the Luo Guang Yu complete Beng Bu photo set on our site.

Pic of move: LGY (http://www.tanglang.lifehome-china.com/bengbu/luo17.jpg)

Full Set: LGY Beng Bu Photos (http://www.tanglang.lifehome-china.com/bengbu.html)