really heavy hands

[timedoctor]

I regularly train with a mate who has studied xingyi for longer than I've worn pants. When we spar he has an annoying way of having hands and arms so heavy I'd need a mack truck to move them, and yet this guy is 100 pounds dripping wet if that. I'm about 230 pounds.
My experience is mainly in Bagua and so I rarely if ever meet his force head on, but this intrigues me. He reckons he doesn't know how he developed this particular skill, other than always training with the intention to occupy the space in front of him. So my question to the knowledgeable Xingyi players is this: is that intention over decades of training what makes the Xingyi body heavy as hell? I haven't come across this in any Bagua or Tai Chi player, or any other Xingyi guy - but I reside in Australia so may be there aren't that many who know how to do it over here. Comments?

[Ray Pina]

Intention is a state of mind. What you're feeling is physical, and the result of him knowing how to link driving off his back leg (his leg is much stronger than your arm) with arm movements that are not extended and utilizing shoulder/back/rib power. On top of that, he's probably timing it perfectly so that when his hand lands his foot hasn't .... so you're taking all is weight and power when he's collapsing you. He's not just pressing down with his arm like you see guys doing with splitting fist. It's everything going at once. You just feel it in his arms because that's where he's greeting you.

The mechanics for this range from easy, just driving off the back leg, to much more complex and not involving the knee at all .... only the hip.... and then sinking the rib and shoulder into the strike. This is why we walk back and forth a lot. To continously train the driving and hang time.

[TenTigers]

connection. Not simply skeletal alignment, but sinking the horse/root, and dan-tien,with the bridge. When you do pek-kuen(pi ch'uan),you sink the dan-tien, and the arms are directly connected. This is taught on day one in Hung-Ga, as well as Ying-Yi Kuen (Hsing-Yi Ch'uan) and other arts. Ray, you probably recall this in your Hung-Ga training as well.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Heavy limbs are usually a sign of someone who knows a thing or two about deep relaxation.

[Ray Pina]

Heavy limbs are usually a sign of someone who knows a thing or two about deep relaxation.

This is also a good reply.

[tug]

I agree with Ten Tigers and Ray Pina.

Thank you for making sense to me.

[imperialtaichi]

but I reside in Australia so may be there aren't that many who know how to do it over here



Where in Australia are you? I'm in Sydney. I'll be more than happy to share with you little of what I know on how to do it. PM me.

Cheers,
John

[fiercest tiger]

Jaam jong everyday will do this?

[imperialtaichi]

Jaam jong everyday will do this?



No.... Just doing the Jaam jong without knowing how to use what you have cultivated is not enough. Also need to know how to use your Qiqong, Zhongfu, Jianjin, Quci, and Zhongcong points properly. Need to learn to use the triangular projection and other projections. Need to know how to dominate the opponents Dumai as well.

Cheers,
John

[fiercest tiger]

This can depend on what art you do, and what your view is!? I didnt go into particulars in my post but that doesnt mean i dont know it, it means i gave you a answer that some can figure out the rest! ;)

John,

You use INTENT in everything you train?

Have a great weekend bro
Garry:)

[imperialtaichi]

You use INTENT in everything you train?

Have a great weekend bro



Yes, especially when the receptionist of the chiropractor next door walked pass just then....
hmmm intense concentration... :p

Cheers,
John

[jon]

If your qi follows that yi, you will end up in trouble my friend :p


Hope everyone is well:D

Jon

[chud]

I regularly train with a mate who has studied xingyi for longer than I've worn pants. When we spar he has an annoying way of having hands and arms so heavy I'd need a mack truck to move them, and yet this guy is 100 pounds dripping wet if that.


It sounds like his arms are heavy because they're full of energy.

[fiercest tiger]

I lead my chi to my angry spitting dragon, thats what got me in trouble!

There is something about receptionist, the glasses and the hair....hum sup gwai lo!

Maybe his arms are heavy boned, but can he move fast as well?

Garry

[timedoctor]

Thanks for the replies. I've practiced Zhang Zhuan for about a year now and haven't noticed that much benefit in my martial arts(great meditation though) but I don't practice any of the extra stuff like specific breathing or visualisations - I haven't been sure what to do there.

I've noticed that my mate is very relaxed yet not floppy and able to maintain his form very well while invading my space. There's no sense of him "bracing" or "leaning" - it's a wierd feeling but it's like there's nothing to push and yet I have these skinny arms that feel like their made out of cast iron invading my space - and I get the feeling that he enjoys laughing at me :)

[Shaolin Shi]

I've noticed that my mate is very relaxed yet not floppy and able to maintain his form very well while invading my space. There's no sense of him "bracing" or "leaning" - it's a wierd feeling but it's like there's nothing to push and yet I have these skinny arms that feel like their made out of cast iron invading my space - and I get the feeling that he enjoys laughing at me :)


I would call that "fullness". In order to achieve that state, you have to have a certain level of relaxation... but relaxation alone won't get you there. You also have to be able to channel your intent through your relaxed body. For me, this is standard "yi leads chi" stuff, but since so many people get upset whenever chi is mentioned, lets just say that there is a state of being relaxed but still "meaning" to have solid structure. When you find that state, you will find fullness.

The only other hint I can give you is that you'll have to get out of your head and into your body in order to achieve fullness.

[timedoctor]

Shaolin Shi - I've been coming to that conclusion lately. I've trained with some systema guys and they don't talk much about chi either but they do this exercise where they keep the push-up position for 10 or 15 minutes, relaxed, but keeping the form. I guess this must be to help find that type of structure. Its a funny balance for someone like myself who hasn't quite felt it yet.

[Shaolin Fist]

Timedoctor,

This is one of the classic questions that gets asked thousands of times, and you will get get thousands of answers without ever getting the true one that allows you to achieve heavy hands. Inevitably Chi always gets mentioned and take it from me, it is not a big part of what creates the heaviness, nor is it just being relaxed either. Heavy hands development is the main powerhouse of the Ng Jou system as they dont use Gin power, but the kwowlege of training is still not commonly known yet.

PM me and i will explain how its trained and developed.

[fiercest tiger]

Time doctor,

The systema guys are kool, i like there system very similar to some of the stuff i do although that push up is it in aup locked position of unlocked at the elbows?

regards
Garry

[mantiskilla]

hit stuff.but i train from the outside in.

[qiphlow]

you can train the standing more--a year is good, but i think not so long when we talk about internal development. also, you can use postures from your form, train them statically: hold your posture for a minute or two (or three or four, if you like), eyes open, intention of performing the appropriate application, but muscles are not tensed. think of a firehose, how it fills with water.
this type of training, combined with the standing meditation, will work it's way into you, into your form.

[timedoctor]

Fiercest tiger - the pushup position that I practiced was in the top position, not quite extended, but I'm told that the systemists practice in lowered also as well.

[Blacktiger]

Systema is kick ass, all about being loose as and soft as.

[imperialtaichi]

The only other hint I can give you is that you'll have to get out of your head and into your body in order to achieve fullness.



Hello Shaolin Shi,

Good point. True Yi does not come from the head, but come from the heart. If you think about it with your head, it will never happen. But if you feel it with your heart, that's when you can lead the qi.

Cheers,
John

[timedoctor]

Shaolin Fist and Imperial Taichi you have PM

[BillW]

Fiercest tiger - the pushup position that I practiced was in the top position, not quite extended, but I'm told that the systemists practice in lowered also as well.

Hey timedoctor, where do you train? I've been doing Systema at Sacramento with Sergey M for a while.

Heaviness seems all we train for--I was pretty stunned the first time Sergey corrected my punching by saying "no, don't use any body, just drop your arm, no body, don't add anything to the drop" i.e., use the heaviness and nothing else. He further illustrated this by having us both lay side by side--he leaned over and dropped his fist into my chest from a very awkward angle--I was gasping, rolling, incapacitated.

But the reason I'm writing--in Systema we are doing heavy punching with no intention--have been specifically directed to make arms and fists heavy and drop without any thought of an opponent, as if opponent is not there. This has come out in practice--unintended "accidental" heavy strikes will drop my partner--the "I didn't mean to hit, I was defending against a takedown" ones doing the most knockout damage.

[TaiChi-IronPalm]

I have noticed in push hands that if I think about stuff like conciously trying to do it, it feels weak, but if I am just feeling and reacting and acting I can shoot people for flips without any effort, like it just comes out, I dont attribute this to some mystical power though, it just seems that your energy and body mechanics line up properly when you are NOT thinking about your energy and mechanics and your attention is on feeling intertia and force moving between you. Personally, and dont flame me for this I think chi is at its core just the energy that powers your body, muscles, organs etc. I dont believe in fairy tales.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Thinking about doing it separates us from "it" and weakens our internal potential.. thinking shifts the action to external properties.. Connective tissue, 20 times quicker than the vervous system at transmitting signals, is one of the primary keys to unlocking the "mystery" of Taiji.. connective tissue accounts for the structure of our physical image, understanding its relationship with consciousness is essential to deep understandings of Taiji..

Be well..