Soft, soft and MORE SOFT

[imperialtaichi]

It is vital to have come in contact with people who can manifest the skills of old, in order to understand what is meant. the often used term sung, or relax is just one example of really not having many people around that can really use this and show others what is meant by it.

At this point I am finding that I am telling people, many are long time Chinese practicners of taiji that they must relax or sung more. By feeling what happens with when we push they understand but can not do…...yet.



This Sung/relax/soft concept is indeed very difficult to explain, unless you experience it first hand. Most people I find confuse Sung with floppiness. When one is floppy, one is just floppy. In real fights (all the old masters were doing Tai Chi for fighting, not for push hand competitions) floppiness will get you killed.

Sung/relaxation is coupled with San/dissipation, and is done for the purpose of Tung/penatration. Muscular tension obstructs the penatration/connection/issuing of internal power. No, I'm not talking about being relaxed so you can punch faster. I'm talking about issuing of internal power without muscular effort. Which means one's movement is for the purpose of maintaining connection, NOT pushing.

When I push my teacher, he never retreats, he never flop his arms around, and he never resists. There is no muscular effort. Yet I just cannot budge him. As if I'm swimming in salt water, I just cannot sink no matter how I try and yet the water is soft.

Although the physical strength you can feel is soft, the power is tremendous.

Cheers,
John

[Ray Pina]

Every time I hear you say something I think, "This guy is really learning the good stuff." I'm stoked for you, and someday maybe our schools could interact.

[fiercest tiger]

Ive always said good boxers are better then most internal m/artist when it comes to fighting.

[Ray Pina]

I mean, if you're a good boxer obviously you're better than most martial artists, internal or otherwise. But I'd say the same if you're a good kick boxer, a good submission fighter, etc.

If you train it real you'll be able to handle yourself. Can't win them all, but you won't look at fighting as such a big deal. You might even like it.

[fiercest tiger]

Totally agree Ray!

Hows your fights going these days, im getting read for some submission grappling using my Internal YKM system soon any tips?

Garry

[imperialtaichi]

it sounds great, and I agree with most of it, but if you think there is no muscular effort, then what, pray tell, is doing the moving? .... I think a more precise way to think about it is coordinated muscular effort....



Hello Cjurakpt,

Ok, enough muscular effort to sustain body function and connection to the opponent. But the power is NOT about coordinated muscular effort. It is very different from a powerful punch/push coming from coordinated muscular effort.

Cheers,
John

[imperialtaichi]

Just to clearify: no coordinated muscular effort does not mean an uncoordinated and unstructured body.

Cheers,
John

[bamboo_ leaf]

What Dr. Fung is talking about is that there is no muscular effort, the idea or yi and qi is trained in such a way that it interacts with the others intent and qi. Tension, even the idea of tension blocks this process. You follow it up with your body but its not the body that is the motive force.

It is a huge undertaking to move into what I would call real internal usage as wittinessed by the many questions about it.. Often what I don’t understand is people tend to say when they see examples of it that its some how faked, staged or would not work.

My own experiences with my class mates and teacher always point to the fact that nothing is theory, its all based in realty with the teacher serving as a model of what it is inviting one to try what ever one likes to see and feel what it is and is not. There are things that I am sure Dr. Fung has felt and seen as well as others, including myself that really would not believed and IMO can not really be explained in western terms unless one really had a high level understanding of the processes involved and then, what ever was said would only be a reflection of what the Chinese have said it is, maybe………....

I really don’t think there is any other way of explaining or saying how or what the process involved is.

[bamboo_ leaf]

(I would argue that top level boxers also have "sung" when they are in the zone...and no one even told them about it...)

if they did they would be able to duplicate what some of the teachers can do, but they cant. It’s a totally different way of thinking

[dwid]

I gotta say I totally agree with cjurakpt. I think we need to move past the tendency to compartmentalize this knowledge as somehow "eastern" and not understandable via the scientific method. There is a basic human tendency to try to make sense of the world. And we do so with whatever tools are available to us. So, if someone knows how to do something, they will try to understand how it works and will go for the first theory that seems to explain it. Still, just because a theory seems to explain everything does not make that theory valid. It needs to be testable and conceptually sound.

Take for example, Freudian psychology. At the time Freud came up with his theory, it seemed to many that it explained how human psychology worked. It was elaborate and self-supporting, such that one part of the theory validated other parts. However, modern psychology has all but refuted 99% of Freud's work. I think, someday, a great deal of the theory behind qi will be viewed the same way. It works as a way to conceptualize a phenomenon, but does not necesarily fully reflect the reality of that phenomenon.

[imperialtaichi]

Hello Cjurakpt,

I understand what you are trying to say. And from your descriptions I can tell you have quite a lot of intricate knowledge of what you are talking about.

However, it is very difficult to explain the colour "blue" to someone who hadn't seen the colour. For example, I can only tell you the colour is cool, it's opposite to red, but I can't exactly show you "blue" just through explaining. I respect your experiences. But if you ever come across someone who can do the things I describe, you will understand EXACTLY what I mean. In the mean time, we'll just end up arguing forever without coming to a common ground.

Take the studies of acupuncture by western doctors for example. If you study and practice acupuncture purely by trying to understand neuro-physiology and anatomy, you will never be good at it. It is much easy to study it under a different model, like yin and yang, hot and cold, full or empty etc. (I do have a certificate in acupuncture. I studied it with western trained medical doctors, and I can see why some are more effective than others.)

All these talk about western science or eastern science is just a model to explain observed phenomenon. If it is becoming too difficult to calculate the movement of the stars by placing earth at the centre of the universe, then put the sun in the middle and everything else rotates around it, although the earth seems "stable" and non-moving. (Now try convincing Middle Age Church the universe is NOT geocentric!)

And our contempory scientific model hadn't managed to explain everything yet; if it had, all the scientists would be out of work. It is continuousely being modified (Isaac Newton didn't discover Quantum mechanics and strings).

My way of thinking? If the method works, then it works. I practice with it. I'll try something else if I'm not seeing result. I try not to complicate it by explaining it through some different and complex means (Sun centred or Earth centred?). If your method takes you to higher level, I respect that too. Afterall, "all roads lead to Rome."


Cheers,
John

[bamboo_ leaf]

(I gotta say I totally agree with cjurakpt. I think we need to move past the tendency to compartmentalize this knowledge as somehow "eastern" and not understandable via the scientific method.)

how does this method make it anymore understandable then what it is already based on ?

(There is a basic human tendency to try to make sense of the world. And we do so with whatever tools are available to us)

seems like the same question posed in a different way, the Chinese have already outlined what and why things work that makes sense to them and produces results.


(I think, someday, a great deal of the theory behind qi will be viewed the same way. It works as a way to conceptualize a phenomenon, but does not necesarily fully reflect the reality of that phenomenon.)

how so?

[imperialtaichi]

ok, fine - but once we have both seen the color blue and agree that is what we are seeing, then that argument doesn't apply any more; in this case, we have both direct experience with the concept of "sung" - both feeling it and doing it; so now we are trying to tease out what it entails.....

..... I blieve will aide in transmission of the art in the 21st century - a correlate description based on western concepts that do not contradict / invalidate the Chinese ones, but create a rich, viable and dynamic set of descriptors based on "western" ideas;



Hold on there Cjurakpt, I'm not trying to argue with you, I am just presenting my point. I did not discredit your points at all. What you say DO make a lot of sense. What my SUBJECTIVE perception of "Sung" is most likely different from yours. Not saying who's more effective. Just saying, different. I am just stating what you have described cannot explain completely what I have experienced. (If any single person can explain everything, then we no longer need forums or different schools. Everyone would be the same.)

And well said on your second point. I completely agree. I believe in the near future Western and Eastern science will meet with a more common ground. I am trained in Western medical science. I see all the valid points. But Western science had NOT explained all the observable phenomenon in Chinese medicine yet.

And if I just stick to my own view without respecting and researching different views, I myself would be guilty of being close minded and non-scientific. Therefore, I will say it again, I RESPECT YOUR POINTS. I did mentioned that if I follow a method and does not work well for me, I'll try something else. (At the moment, my teacher's method works well for me. :) )

Of course, it is good that we do disagree on some issues. Progress is best made when different groups study using different methods.

My point? Be open minded. Don't disregard Western science methods. It is a very good scientific model. But be open-minded enough to experiment with other scientific models too.

Cheers,
John

[dwid]

My point? Be open minded. Don't disregard Western science methods. It is a very good scientific model. But be open-minded enough to experiment with other scientific models too.

I think this reflects a common misconception. Traditional qi theory is a religious/philosophical model of understanding the universe, not a scientific one. This is in no way intended to discredit the Eastern approach, so please do not take it this way, but we need to be clear about basic definitions. The scientific model is the scientific model. It is not a theory, it is a set of tools to systematically accumulate and assess the validity of knowledge. It is neither inherently Western nor inherently Eastern.

Ultimately, I agree. We must be open-minded to possibilities outside of what we currently can explain or understand. However, the tools of science provide a way to test perceived reality and sometimes develop alternative explanations for long-accepted ways of viewing things. The whole Sun vs. Earth centric thing is a great example. The earth as center of the universe was based on a religious assumption, and when science found that this view conflicted with observations, the view ultimately had to change. However, the power of the dogma surrounding the geocentric view caused this change in viewpoint to be delayed quite a while, as it was heresy to contradict it. So, a lot of scientists tried to construct ridiculously complicated theories to explain observations in light of the dogma. I'd say that's quite a relevant comparison with the debate going on here.

[imperialtaichi]

I think this reflects a common misconception. Traditional qi theory is a religious/philosophical model of understanding the universe, not a scientific one. This is in no way intended to discredit the Eastern approach, so please do not take it this way, but we need to be clear about basic definitions.



Hello Dwid,

Well done. Very good post. You have a very balanced view.

The only thing is that the Qi model is more than just a religious/philosophical model, but a scientific one as well. The Yin/Yang and Qi thing can be used effectively in solving health problems and to predict outcomes of interactions of things (e.g. in Chinese Medicine). There is quite a lot of science in it in calculating disease state of a person and how to overcome illnesses. For a thousand years people had practiced martial arts with this method and achieved good results. Of course, people do mis-use it for fortune telling and superstition means. There is nothing mythical about the concept of Qi, it just need to be further explored and investigated.

I think this whole Western/Eastern approach is a bit like Quantum Mechanics; Sometimes particle/energy behaviours are best explained as particles, sometimes better explained as waves.

Cheers,
John

[dwid]

The only thing is that the Qi model is more than just a religious/philosophical model, but a scientific one as well. The Yin/Yang and Qi thing can be used effectively in solving health problems and to predict outcomes of interactions of things (e.g. in Chinese Medicine). There is quite a lot of science in it in calculating disease state of a person and how to overcome illnesses.

Insofar as that is the case, I would argue then, again, that there is just the scientific method, and this is an example of applying it to an Eastern concept. The basic tools you describe are the same: empirical observations of phenomena, making predictions and measuring outcome. This is science, whether it's being applied to an Eastern "theory" or a Western one. Studying the technology of TCM in this manner sounds great to me and promises huge benefits for integrative medicine. Outside of limited work studying accupuncture and some herbal medicines, I had simply never encountered any rigorous empirical research on TCM, and certainly none that addressed underlying theory. I had always encountered expressed more as a matter of faith. Any books you would recommend that address the science of TCM in the way you describe it?

[imperialtaichi]

Studying the technology of TCM in this manner sounds great to me and promises huge benefits for integrative medicine. Outside of limited work studying accupuncture and some herbal medicines, I had simply never encountered any rigorous empirical research on TCM, and certainly none that addressed underlying theory. I had always encountered expressed more as a matter of faith. Any books you would recommend that address the science of TCM in the way you describe it?



Hello Dwid,

The acupuncture college I went to is called "AMAC", which stands for "Australian Medical Acupuncture College", and is ran by Western trained medical doctors. While embracing all these Yin/Yang Qi systems, we also have to study physiology, biochemistry etc. so it is definitely a East/West mix. And instead of just learning what point to use for what conditions, we were encouraged to look at the yin/yang, hot/cold, full/empty state and the organ systems and think and decide on what points to use and how.

I'll be seeing the founder of AMAC in a couple of weeks. I'll ask him which book is good.

Cheers,
John

[dwid]

Sounds great. Thanks.

I just have to add that, having not posted for a couple of years and just coming back here, I'm pleasantly surprised by the degree of openness and the overall mature tone of the discussions with some of the members. Part of why I stopped posting a couple of years ago was the immaturity and basically the lack of worthwhile discussion, so here's hoping this isn't some kind of anomaly.:)