It's a the concept, stupid!

[lkfmdc]

The thread title comes from the now famous presidential slogan "it's the economy, stupid" and isn't directed in particular to anyone specific...

But the thread itself is inspired by Knife Fighter's recent lame comments regarding a picture of my instructor Chan Tai San and a picture of him throwing a kick.

Sure, if you are looking for stuff to criticize in any pic you can find problems. But then again, it's a pic of a man over 70 years of age with numerous injuries holding a kick up while he waits for someone to snap a picture...

Really, I don't think knife fighter was talking about "balance"... come on, that's a joke... he responded negatively because he can't conceptualize anything that isn't in the box in front of him...

Sifu Chan's hips were forward and his head slightly back. Forget the above discussion of a 70 year old man holding a pose for a camera, Muay Thai throws it's teep (foot jab) with the hips forward and head back to put the hips into the power... but what do they know about kicking in a full contact environment :rolleyes:

No, I suspect that the real thing that Knife fighter couldn't understand, or refused to understand, and by his childish nature had to "attack" was the hand position.

Now, I could tell you that the forward hand, held low in a hooking position, is acutally a kick catch. My students have used this technique LIVE in many San Da and even Muay Thai matches so I can say without a doubt it works...

Since Knife fighter can only accept what he's been taught, he won't even consider that in TCMA, a movement is in CONTEXT. He sees a hand down and thinks you just drop your hand for no reason and kick, and since whoever taught him told him to keep his hands up he wrongly assumes the movement is wrong...

The rear arm is extended to the rear, above sifu Chan's head... in one sense, it's a stylized movement... though I could point you in the direction of French Savate, a full contact kickboxing style where the rear hand is always extended like that for balance...

Again, there are two kinds of people in the world. The knife fighters only grasp what they do, their little box, and can't accept other's experiences as valid. Knife fighter knows his stuff works, guys like me can accept that he has valid training, but he can't make enough room in his closed pre-conceptions to consider that his way isn't the only way...

A troll over on MMA.tv posted this pic of me over there recently
http://lionsroar.name/david_41.jpg

To him, it was a great way to "attack me", but like most trolls, he missed the point entirely...

The above is a posed pic, it's a highly stylized representation of a CONCEPT.... ultimately, it's the concept, stupid! It's the concept that is important, not the physical movement....

Look at the rest of the sequence if you want at
http://lionsroar.name/david_ross_gallery_4.htm

So, you could make fun of the first pic and crack one liners, or you can see that it is a very stylized way of translating the concept of slipping...

followed up by and overhand and an uppercut....

Now, forget the pictures.... imagine for a minute I tell you one of my favorite techniques is to slip a punch, throw and overhand and follow up with an uppercut...

The concepts alone, ie the writing without the picture, wouldn't likely get anything but approval from boxers, kickboxers and most MMA people....

And in fact it's something my students do in live competition all the time successfully....

So, in conclusion,

IT'S THE CONCEPT STUPID

[hskwarrior]

i hope you take this in a good way,

but you david remind me of Chan Tai San. just not the chinese look. but stance wise you guys are very similar. you must have watched intensely.


peace.

[Knifefighter]

Ross- Is that the way you teach your fighters to throw front kicks at your gym?

[lkfmdc]

Ross- Is that the way you teach your fighters to throw front kicks at your gym?

If you want me to answer seriously, all I ask is that you be more specific. What "way" exactly?

With the heel? Hips forward, head back? With or without the hand motion? Which hand motion (the hook hand, the extended rear, both, neither)....

If you want to have a legit discussion on technique and application, I'll be happy to give you my perspective and experience... if you're going to be closed minded or childish, obviously there isn't much point in carrying on a flame war in yet another thread...

[Knifefighter]

If you want me to answer seriously, all I ask is that you be more specific. What "way" exactly?

With the heel? Hips forward, head back? With or without the hand motion? Which hand motion (the hook hand, the extended rear, both, neither)....
The front hand down by the extended leg.
The rear hand up over the head.
The head vertical to the hips and off to the side.

[Fu-Pow]

Could someone repost the picture of CTS so we know WTF you guys are talking about?

[lkfmdc]

The front hand down by the extended leg.
The rear hand up over the head.
The head vertical to the hips and off to the side.

The head goes slightly backward so the hips can go forward, it's biomechanics. You can't put your hip forward with the head forward at the same time. You haven't studied any Muay Thai Dale? Seriously.... there is nothing controversial about a slight tilt of the head...

The front hand? If I parry a kick and kick off of it, there is a moment my hand is down. If I catch the kick and then launch a counter kick while holding the leg then my arm may be "down"....

We aren't talking about absolutes, we are talking about context, we are talking about moments in time....

Let me see if I can put it in terms you can easily relate to... take something as simple as a guard sweep, what if I photoshoped out the other person? You are just lying there, arms stretched out, legs in teh air.... try and picture the technique if there isn't another person there... could some say it looks f-in silly?

How about a knife disarm? Say I asked you to walk through it with no one there... say I took a picture, a split second flash, while you walked through the movement.... do you think it would look like a fighting stance with your hands up?

Let's get more particular, specific, which "front kick"? A foot jab, a thrust kick, as attack? As diversion? As stop hit? As counter?

[paradoxbox]

My advice is to just ignore those who criticise you on this forum. Most of them have somehow mistakenly migrated away from bullshido (or have been banned for crossing the line of stupid) and come here to stir $%#$ up.

Your own and your teachers training is probably fine, don't let dimwits try to give you a hard time about it.

[lkfmdc]

Dael, I'm going to the movies, nothing personal, I'll be back later and answer anything you post....

[Knifefighter]

Ross,
My question was not about what happens in the various transitions and complexities of a fight, blah, blah, blah...

My quetion was "Is that the way you teach your fighters to throw a kick?" i.e the way shown in that picture.

[CoRWiN]

Somone's missing the point....

[Royal Dragon]

Again, there are two kinds of people in the world. The knife fighters only grasp what they do, their little box, and can't accept other's experiences as valid. Knife fighter knows his stuff works, guys like me can accept that he has valid training, but he can't make enough room in his closed pre-conceptions to consider that his way isn't the only way...

Reply]
Best response of all Knife fighter debates to date!

[Royal Dragon]

Somone's missing the point....

Reply]
Yup...

[Knifefighter]

Oh yeah, there's a point here, alright.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Hey David. I've got a question for you and I hope you see it as a genuine question and not an attack on your past or on Chan Tai San.

If your teacher was such a decent fighter and understood how to fight and what you needed to do to train to fight (and win).....

then why in the hell was he still doing forms and stupid poses for pictures? You have to admit that a guy, in silk pajamas, striking a wooden dummy, with his hand raised above his head.. is just kinda cheesy..

Jigoro Kano figured this out in 1882 with the importance of randori and here we are in the 21st century and many people, especially in the CMA, are using forms.

Even if he learned in an archaic tradition why didn't he ditch it and show everyone how to train better? From what you've said CTS didn't seem like a guy who was afraid to be an individual.

[lkfmdc]

Ross,
My question was not about what happens in the various transitions and complexities of a fight, blah, blah, blah...

My quetion was "Is that the way you teach your fighters to throw a kick?" i.e the way shown in that picture.

I answered you, my answer was, it depends...

If I'm in a "fighting stance" ie we are aware or have fore warning and can assume a fighting position... then I have a lead leg front kick and a rear kick...

Now, am I intercepting? Stopping an oncoming rush? Most likely, in this case both my hands would stay up, or one might "lever" while the other blocks the face ala a lot of Muay Thai kicks

Did I attack? Something like jab, cross, then kick? Most likely I'd still have my hands up...

But, did I just parry a kick and then throw my front kick? A low parry is not an "out there technique"... look at Vinny's latest Muay Thai article in IKF.... plenty of low parry and variations in the very alive art of Muay Thai...

Did I catch the kick with the parry and hold it while I counter kicked? Then my hand is still out there so to speak...

But didn't I just write that?

As for the rear hand extension, like I said, look at Savate as an example of an alive system that uses a similar strategy. Me personally, I don't really teach that, I see it as an over stylized representation and/or as simply a balancing movement since you don't have the same configuation doing the technique in the air as you do doing it in drills with another person. So, at best, we have ONE ASPECT out of the list that you might want to concentrate on...

[SifuAbel]

You really haven't leared much in all this time.

My spin,

He did his form work AS A FIGHTER, as tool for his training, with the end being fighting. He wasn't a form fairy who did it for show.

Your lack of understanding and skill in this issue is not a passport.

[Knifefighter]

Ross-
If you were going to have pictures of your fighters on your website or in brochures and other promotinal material showing different "poses" for what is representative of how you teach your fighters to fight, would you want them looking like the picture in question?

[CoRWiN]

Here's my spin, Knifefighter fears old age and made a joke about the late Chan Tai San to feel better about himself. Everything about the guy screems narcasit. I've seen the pics i even spent the time to read the website. Your getting older guy, accept it. I think what you really need is a hug...

Stop the Flame....

[lkfmdc]

The front hand down by the extended leg.



The above applies to this pick of a Muay Thai kick

[lkfmdc]

Here are some low parries

[lkfmdc]

Ross-
If you were going to have pictures of your fighters on your website or in brochures and other promotinal material showing different "poses" for what is representative of how you teach your fighters to fight, would you want them looking like the picture in question?

Dale-

If you were going to put up pictures of yourself on your web site (it would be a novel idea don't you think to put up a larger and more recent picture of yourself don't you think) showing different techniques you teach would you have chosen this one?

http://www.grappletv.com/pics/2005.4.23%20Best%20of%20the%20West/sim-dale%20frank.jpg

My guess is probably not... My guess is someone took the shot randomly during a practice....

If you some day actually became famous though, since that's one of the few pictures of you known to be of existance, maybe people like your students would put that one up? I don't know, I'm just presenting a possibility for you to consider

[Knifefighter]

Here's my spin, Knifefighter fears old age and made a joke about the late Chan Tai San to feel better about himself.
Actually, I have no problem with the man. I never met him, saw him fight, or saw any pictures of him fighting. I have to take Ross's word for it that he was a dangerous fighter. I don't really know or care one way or another.

The pic in question was only one out of three which contained two other people of which I was poking fun at. I was not poking fun at him, per se, but, rather the techniques shown on the Green Cloud site.

My issue is not about whether or not he could fight. It is with the BS techniques that I have seen that are supposed to be representative of what he was teaching. If he WAS a good fighter and was actaully fighting with those Lama techniques, then he was good in spite of them and not because of them.

Ross and I both know that he doesn't teach his fighters to fight with those Lama bullsheet techniques, because they would get splattered that way.

[Knifefighter]

Dale-

If you were going to put up pictures of yourself on your web site (it would be a novel idea don't you think to put up a larger and more recent picture of yourself don't you think) showing different techniques you teach would you have chosen this one?
Thank you, Ross, for making my point exactly (I told you there was one).

No, of course I wouldn't put a picture of one of my competitions where I am in a tough spot on my promotional material. I would want to show myself in the best light. And since I am experienced and knowledgeable about real time applications, I would know the difference.

That was my point exactly and one of the reasons I used that photo along with the others. It shows that these guys don't know the difference between the good stuff and the bad. They are clueless. They put up something that they think is representative of what is supposed to be the best, technique wise., when, in reality, that's not what you'd want to put there if you knew what was up.-

[lkfmdc]

Ross and I both know that he doesn't teach his fighters to fight with those Lama bullsheet techniques, because they would get splattered that way.

Dale, for a grown man, you continue to post like you're 12... grow up already.

I'm glad to see you can admit you don't know anything about me or Chan Tai San. The reality is pretty much no one on any of these boards knows anyone else. Our lives do not intersect, even if we share as small a hobby as martial arts.

Face it, you've never seen me train, you've never seen my students fight, you know nothing about us. I don't know anything about you really, except I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt since I know you got a black belt in BJJ and we both know those are rare...

By a remarkable coincidence, a random event, I happen to know some "dogs", one trained stand up in my school with me at one point. I know some others associated with the organization. But really, no one knows anyone here. Just admit it, grow up already

It's too bad you are of such little character that you can't even imagine that something different than what you do might work.

The techniques I learned from Chan Tai San I teach every day and my students use in every match they fight in. You cna blather on some more, I'm actually sure you will, because you simply are incapable of seeing other options. Despite your professed knowledge of Jeet Kune Do, you have an utterly limited acceptance and virtually no openness to other ideas... I guess maybe you're simply to old to absorb antying else?

[Knifefighter]

That's funny....
I seem to remember a thread where you said the exact opposite of what you are saying now.

[lkfmdc]

Thank you, Ross, for making my point exactly (I told you there was one).

No, of course I wouldn't put a picture of one of my competitions where I am in a tough spot on my promotional material. I would want to show myself in the best light. And since I am experienced and knowledgeable about real time applications, I would know the difference.

That was my point exactly and one of the reasons I used that photo along with the others. It shows that these guys don't know the difference between the good stuff and the bad. They are clueless. They put up something that they think is representative of what is supposed to be the best, technique wise., when, in reality, that's not what you'd want to put there if you knew what was up.-

No Dale, you missed the point entirely....

The front stomp with a low hook hand is a perfectly valid technique... I know because my students use it "live" in competition on a consistent basis.

Just because you don't practice it that way, or THINK it doesn't work doesn't make it so, you aren't G'd Dale... you aren't the only holder of truth

In the picture of Chan Tai San in which he is doing the technique, he's doing it in a sytlized manner (by which I mean the rear hand extended)... but unlike you, Chinese martial arts people don't care...

Unlike you Dale, we understand that our tradition has performance elements, and over stylized movement at times... but we also know it doesn't mean that a technique doesn't work

For a guy who was exposed to such as open minded environment as JKD and the Inostanto school, you have a terribly closed mind. It's readily appaent that you simply can't conceive of any techniqeu that doesnt' look like your own.

[Knifefighter]

In the picture of Chan Tai San in which he is doing the technique, he's doing it in a sytlized manner (by which I mean the rear hand extended)... but unlike you, Chinese martial arts people don't care...
Unfortunately, not only do they not care, most of them do not know, either.

[lkfmdc]

That's funny....
I seem to remember a thread where you said the exact opposite of what you are saying now.

No Dale, you either misunderstood me or read it the way you wanted to read it. I am beginning to think the later. You are completely closed to anything that isn't what you practice.

Did the Dog brothers make up their system or change the way the technique was practiced? Did they wake up one day and come up with all those techniques? Or did they take the techniques they had and trained them alive to make them better and more readily available

Those are of course rhetorical questions, we both know the answers don't we?

For the most part I've trimmed the practice time, IE I prefer to jump into the two man drills, the sparring and the actual application of technique. I trimmed the overly stylized movement. I believe that for a person who is likely going to be trained a few hours a practice, a few practices a week, I'm not going to bother with forms. IE I don't expect them to learn the way I did because they aren't training the way I did. I dropped out of school to train, 6 days a week, followed my teacher around all day.

To quote someone you might remember, a punch is still a punch and a kick is still a kick.

CTS's method was based upon a few essentials

Chyuhn was a straight punch
Gok was a hook
Paau was an uppercut
Sat was a knee
Chyuhn Sam was a stomp
Tam Soi was a kick/sweep at the ankle
There were lots of trips, sweeps and throws, including wrapping up the arms/clinching

That's still what we do...

[lkfmdc]

Unfortunately, not only do they not care, most of them do not know, either.

And I know guys who after 4 months of GJJ think they can't be beaten... you've been in GJJ probably long enough to realize that if anything, even BJJ is going to go the way of most martial arts

Helio and his sons know Jiujitsu for fighting, ie they understand how it works with punches, kicks, knees, elbow... head butts and soccer kicks... even with knives and guns...

How many BJJ people are learning that today? How many are doing sport technique?

Heck, we both know that Helio and his sons have stand up, how many BJJ academies right now are ignoring that aspect?

Do you think in 25 more years that people doing BJJ in the US are going to be better real world fighters than Helio and his family or perhaps worse??

[Knifefighter]

Did the Dog brothers make up their system or change the way the technique was practiced? Did they wake up one day and come up with all those techniques? Or did they take the techniques they had and trained them alive to make them better and more readily available

Those are of course rhetorical questions, we both know the answers don't we?

For the most part I've trimmed the practice time, IE I prefer to jump into the two man drills, the sparring and the actual application of technique. I trimmed the overly stylized movement. I believe that for a person who is likely going to be trained a few hours a practice, a few practices a week, I'm not going to bother with forms. IE I don't expect them to learn the way I did because they aren't training the way I did. I dropped out of school to train, 6 days a week, followed my teacher around all day.

Exactamente!!
You've taken out the BS. Just like the Dog Bros have done.

Imagine the fighter you could have become if you would have put in all those hours, but all those hours were spent being taught the way you teach your fighters.

And again... that was my point in poking fun at that website. All the photos posted there indicate that they are still in the BS mode.

[rogue]

KF: Since there aren't any time machines yet we have to just accept with how we trained and go from there. You gotta give Ross some props for the way that he's teaching things now, and still remaining faithful to the meat of what he was taught.

[Jules]

The pic in question was only one out of three which contained two other people of which I was poking fun at. I was not poking fun at him, per se, but, rather the techniques shown on the Green Cloud site.


Backpedaling - it's not just for breakfast anymore!

~~Jules

[Knifefighter]

KF: Since there aren't any time machines yet we have to just accept with how we trained and go from there. You gotta give Ross some props for the way that he's teaching things now, and still remaining faithful to the meat of what he was taught.
Rogue:
I have no problems with the way Ross is teaching his fighters. This has absolutely nothing to do with that. I already know he's gotten ride of the bull$hit.

My whole beef was with the greencloud clowns. Ross just jumped in because I used a photo of his teacher to poke fun at them.

[yenhoi]

Of course we MUST give him props, not that every 3rd thread here isent about shoving the NEW and IMPROVED san da nonsense down our throats.

Oh yeah, duh, its a kung fu forum, all of use should expect nonsense shoved down our throats...

:rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

Dale -

I don't see the leadership of the Dog Brothers posting pictures and making fun of the older Filipino men that Inostanto learned with, and I can be pretty sure that they'd be offended if someone else did (actually, are you aware of their issues with Burton?)

Whether you want to believe, or even can believe it, CTS was a very capable fighter. I remember distinctly that you couldn't accept how strong his grip was when we discussed it. All I can say is too bad you never got a chance to experience it first hand because it would have given you pause to consider some things in a different light.

By this I mean, I personally didn't spend 12 years, 4 hours a day working on my hand strength so I don't have the strenght CTS did.... so if I grab you hand I can't achieve the same effect he could... for this reason I may not use a certain tactic and certainly won't pass it on to students who are training even more casually than I did.... but by the same token I wouldn't run around making fun of that tactic because I know first hand that in some hands (pun intended) it was a functional tactic

[Knifefighter]

Damit!!!
You guys quit posting so fast. I can't keep up.

[Ou Ji]

Real life, multiple attackers. Grapple that. :D

[rogue]

My bad Dale, I'll bow out of this.

Yenhoi, That san da nonsense looks good to me, but I'm just an old krotty guy.

[Knifefighter]

Backpedaling - it's not just for breakfast anymore!

Really, Jules??

Here's my post:
"Didn't see anything there much related to actually fighting, other than some pictures of people who are having trouble keeping their balance.

I definitely didn't see anything to suggest that anyone at that school knows anything about grappling."

Followed by the pic with the caption: "I think I'm going to tip over".

How is that backpedalling?

[Fu-Pow]

Can someone just repost the picture already!:rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

Here ya go.

And with it note a few things. No "silk uniform". He's wearing a t shirt and sweat pants and his street shoes. Other than big demonstrations, I never saw Sifu in a "uniform"... The front hand of which so much is made is hooking/redirecting a part of the dummy.. ie he's training moving/parrying a kick and launching his kick. I already posted some very similar parrying tactics from Muay Thai, an art that is very "alive" and certainly functional... the only real thing you can focus on if you want to be critical is the rear hand...

If you read some of the stories I posted about CTS you should try and note that he was an extremely receptive and open minded person. Not only did he seek out other Chinese style fighters to see what they were doing, he did what available foreign methods he could find, primarily western boxing and Japanese Judo. In his late 50's he ended up in the Filipine islands and always told me he respected their knife fighting. He was in no way a closed minded person and if I have anyone to thank for encouraging me to look at new ways of doing things it was my teacher!

[CoRWiN]

You would think that by now having upset every CTS student out there Dale the "Just don't get it" biter would have renamed the picture from "tipping over" to something a bit more respectful and appropriate.

_____
| . . . |
| . . . | <------ The Box, try to get out...
|____|

[SimonM]

Real life, multiple attackers. Grapple that. :D

Throw people into other people. Jump up and down on the bits. :p;)

[Jules]

Really, Jules??

Here's my post:
"Didn't see anything there much related to actually fighting, other than some pictures of people who are having trouble keeping their balance.

I definitely didn't see anything to suggest that anyone at that school knows anything about grappling."

Followed by the pic with the caption: "I think I'm going to tip over".

How is that backpedalling?

Except that you didn't exaclty use those words, it was more like, "someone catch me because I'm too drunk to stand," captioned it "too drunk to stand" or something lame and insulting like that. I noticed that you changed the filename, too. :rolleyes: Oh, such bravery. And what you're doing now? Yeah, backpedaling.

Dude, you are a troll. Go back under your bridge pls, Kthxdie.

~~Jules

[yenhoi]

yeah, respect beyoch!

:mad:

[Ben Gash]

OK, as someone who A) uses his kung fu for real on a regular basis B) does San Da and grappling and C) does Illustrissimo, I really don't see anything wrong with the photo.
Yes, he's leaning back a bit, but the movement is very obviously counterattacking, so (I'm assuming here Ross, but this is how I'd work it) the opponent has kicked, he's moved back off the line, hooked the foot/ankle with the lead hand and kicked into the groin. Because he's off the line and grabbing with the lead hand, it's quite likely that he needs to lean back a bit to deliver the kick (especially bearing in mind he must be in his mid 70s there). However, his opponent will be at full extension, having just delivered his kick, and his lead leg is imobilised,AND the angle has changed, so it would be very difficult for the opponent to knock him off balance. As for the hip, I'm assuming that he moved back into a side on cat stance (fairly standard kick defence footwork), so his hip would have been forward at the start of the motion. Would you rather he'd taken the time to reposition himself for the kick?:confused:

[Knifefighter]

Except that you didn't exaclty use those words, it was more like, "someone catch me because I'm too drunk to stand," captioned it "too drunk to stand" or something lame and insulting like that. I noticed that you changed the filename, too.
Jules, go back to the post. The "drunk again" pic is still there and was for the dumb cuff with the spear stuck up his a$$.

The pic related to the controversy was EXACTLY as I just posted.

[Green Cloud]

Here ya go.

That picture was taken in my kwoon, Sifu CTS is demoing a heart penetrating kick.

The hooking hand is blocking and holding the oponents kick, while Cts is demoying how to grab and kick an opponent while he is off balace. This kick is a trusting kick so the hips are turned out to create more extension.

Cts is leaning back in order to show us counterbalancing to create more power. Watch any tai boxing fights.

You see knifefighter if you simply posted the picture and asked why does he appear off balance we could have had a discussion about that kick.

Lets be real, were looking at a 70 something old man doing a kick. Why you would make fun of that pic is beyond me.

Listen make fun of me all you want, I can take it. Hell, you can probably find some Pics of me that you can poke fun at but at least I'm alive so I can reply back with a come back.

As far as the spear bending well, I thought the knifefighter could apreciate that since you say how brutal fighting with your knives is. I'm bending one in half and to date I'm the only American that's ever done that.

[Knifefighter]

As far as the spear bending well, I thought the knifefighter could apreciate that since you say how brutal fighting with your knives is. I'm bending one in half and to date I'm the only American that's ever done that.
Actually, what I appreciate is going hard against resisting, skilled opponents... not parlor tricks.

[David Jamieson]

Actually, what I appreciate is going hard against resisting, skilled opponents... not parlor tricks.

wow, that sounds like hardcore leatherman stuff. :p
It just sounds....

anyway, I know where you're coming from. But just banging isn't all there is to training. It's a part of it and an important part, but not the only part and definitely not the most effective way of delivering a method.

always start at the beginning in other words.

so many of us seem to have a tendency to forgetr where we came from.

Knife, I'm sure like everyone else you were a baby and defenssless once, then you grew up and spent a great deal of time absorbig and seeing and listening and what not as you pass through the years.

Only after some time does it come to pass that you get into a fight and only afetr any sort of interst and practice with it do you become better with it.

absolutes do not exist in martial arts. Anything you got at any given time can be taken from you and destroyed.

Knowing that simple thing keeps you honig your sword or will lead you to throw it away in despair and dissatisfaction with the futility of it all. :p

[Becca]

A troll over on MMA.tv posted this pic of me over there recently
http://lionsroar.name/david_41.jpg

To him, it was a great way to "attack me", but like most trolls, he missed the point entirely...

The above is a posed pic, it's a highly stylized representation of a CONCEPT.... ultimately, it's the concept, stupid! It's the concept that is important, not the physical movement....

Look at the rest of the sequence if you want at
http://lionsroar.name/david_ross_gallery_4.htm

So, you could make fun of the first pic and crack one liners, or you can see that it is a very stylized way of translating the concept of slipping...

Looks somewhat similar to the dragon forms I know (all two of them:p ) but still a fairly common concept to TCMA.:)

[Fu-Pow]

Here ya go.

I really don't see any problem with what CTS is doing in this picture. He's leaning back a little because he is the proper distance from the dummy. If it was a real opponent then he would be kicking "through" the target. However, because the target is heavy and static he can't kick through it and so must adjust his balance back a little bit.

His left hand is up over his head, serving several purposes 1) a counterbalance 2) protecting his head in a multiple attacker situation 3) if the opponent is much taller he could be controlling the attackers arm with this hand. You see this "Long Tau" or protect the head in most traditional external kung fu styles.


As for Dave Ross's pictures posted on this thread.

http://lionsroar.name/david_ross_gallery_4.htm

In regards to sequence 3 on this page.

The first pic I'm not sure what you're doing. Is this some kind of evasion? It looks like what we call Chyun Hei "Pierce the Air" in CLF. Seems kind of complicated for an evasion but judging from the next pic it looks like some kind of set up.

The second pic looks like Kaap Chui "Stamping Fist" to the neck area.

The third pic. I'm not sure exactly how you got from Kaap Chui to blocking his arm out. It looks like you slipped your arm around to the inside and are pushing out.

The 4th pic. Faan Johng, roughly "Overturn Smash". An upper cut. In CLF we would have hit the guy under the chin first with an upward swinging back fist, then followed through with th Faan Johng.

Overall, however, the seq made sense to me. If you saw it at full speed it wouldn't look nearly as clean.

Ciao

[Becca]

I think that was Dave's point. We KF peoples don't care if it looked like a snapshot of an actual fight. We know what we are looking at, because we also do forms in that maner. And we also know that that is not what it would look like used against an unwilling opponant. It is only the clueless who have issues with it.:rolleyes:

[Mutant]

Agreed that there's nothing wrong with CTS's kicking, body or hand form in that picture. In fact he looks skillful at that technique.

[hen]

Picture looks perfectly good to me!!! NOT sure what KF is trying to say ??:confused: :confused:

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Hey, let me clarify a few thing for everyone, being that I'M THE PERSON WHO TOOK THIS PICTURE!

This picture was taken of GM Chan Tai-San by me, in my school in 1994/5 in Mineola.

GM CTS was teaching me sequences on the dummy. I have about 50 of these pics.

To get the one with the kick, Chuyhn Sum Teui, He wasnt' actually kicking; he placed his foot on the pad so the shot would be clear. We werent' quite in the 'digital age' so I'm sure I took the pic with a disposable camera which meant I had to 'wait for the flash'. This accounts for his weight distribution and hip placement.

What you see here is a 75 year old Master, holding his leg in the air for a much longer period of time than it takes to throw a kick. His kicks weren't great at this time in his life as a result of his diabetes and old injuries (army). He was still doing Tornado Kicks in the 1980's (I've got video) and they were good! He was not a poor kicker and taught his students how to kick quite well.

If anyone has any more questions about the photo, ask me through a PM. This whole forum has gotten a bit out of control and I'm not so keen on posting too much anymore.

If I see any inaccuracies or incorrect comments about my teacher, I'll jump in to correct them, not to admonish anyone. Say what you will, I'll stick to the facts ma'am.

Keep the faith.

[lkfmdc]

So, in other words, it's exactly what I said in the very first post on here, ie



But then again, it's a pic of a man over 70 years of age with numerous injuries holding a kick up while he waits for someone to snap a picture...